Golfer Rory McIlroy And Collectability's John Reardon¶
Published on Mon, 3 Aug 2020 10:00:35 +0000
Whether you're interested in PGA Championships or Supercomplications, you don't want to miss this one.
Synopsis¶
This episode of Hodinkee Radio (#99) features three distinct conversations about the watch industry. Host Stephen Pulvirent begins with editor Danny Milton's interview with professional golfer Rory McIlroy, a four-time major champion and passionate watch collector. McIlroy discusses how COVID-19 has changed professional golf, his relationship with watches from childhood, his partnership with Omega (including involvement in designing the Ultralight watch), and his collecting philosophy. He reveals his love for chronographs, particularly the Speedmaster collection, and shares insights about playing golf while wearing watches.
The episode continues with a conversation between Pulvirent and Zenith CEO Julian Tornare, who discusses how the Swiss manufacturer has adapted during the pandemic. Tornare shares his enthusiasm for the Chronomaster Revival Manufacture Edition, explains Zenith's strategy of connecting past and future, and teases an exciting October release featuring a material and construction technique typically reserved for watches priced at \(150,000-\)300,000, but at a much more accessible price point.
The main segment features Pulvirent's extensive interview with John Reardon, founder of Collectability.com and a veteran auction house specialist. Reardon traces his journey from discovering horology at Connecticut's American Clock and Watch Museum as a teenager, through his career at Sotheby's and Christie's, to his decade at Patek Philippe, and finally to launching his own platform focused on vintage Patek Philippe education and sales. They discuss the historic Time Museum sales (including the Henry Graves Supercomplication), the changing auction landscape, the rise of online platforms, and Reardon's perspective on collecting categories. The conversation reveals how Reardon's invitation to Pulvirent to attend the 2012 Graves-Fulleton auction ultimately led to Pulvirent's career at Hodinkee, making this a full-circle moment for the podcast.
Links¶
Transcript¶
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| John Reardon | In a way, I'm seeing kind of this the rise of the the micro specialists. You asked me who a vintage Rolex expert is. Okay, a couple of people come to mind. But then when you kind of drill in deeper into what reference, more people come into mind. When I started in this industry, you're a watch specialist, an expert over uh 500 years of horology. That generalist idea is kind of gone by the wayside |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . Hey everybody, I'm your host Stephen Polvern and this is Hodinki Radio. This is it, the big nine nine. Uh it's pretty crazy to think that a little over two years ago we launched the show and that we're almost that big uh three-digit milestone. We're gonna have something special for you next week, don't worry about that, but that doesn't mean we don't need to bring the heat this week too. Up first, we've got our own Danny Milton talking to golfer Rory McElroy, a multi-time PGA champion and a diehard watch guy. Uh this is gonna be a video that's actually gonna run on hodinky.com later this week, but we wanted to give you a little taste early of their conversation. I'm not gonna ruin too much. You'll get to hear a little bit of the conversation today. And then be sure to check back later this week to see the full video. It's awesome. It's a really special conversation. I'm super happy we can give you a taste here. And after that, we've got my conversation with John Rearden, who's a veteran of the auction world. He's one of the leading experts on all things Petecfully. He's written multiple books on the subject. And he's the founder of Collectibility.com, which is a new online platform for learning about and buying vintage paddock watches. Uh, John was actually my gateway into the watch world back in 2012. We'll give you the full story on that, but uh suffice it to say, I think we can say that this whole podcast is actually kind of John's fault. So I can't believe it took us so long to invite him on the show, but I think it was worth the wait. Without further ado, let's do this This week's episode is brought to you by Zenith. Stay tuned later in the show for my conversation with Zenith CEO Julian Tornare. For more visit zenithwatches.com |
| John Reardon | . Alright, I am Danny Milton, editor at Hodinky. I am joined by four-time major champion, reigning FedEx Cup champion, and reigning player of the year, Rory McElroy. Thanks for joining us, Rory. Welcome in. Thank you. Thanks for the nice introduction. For sure, you know, when you win all the awards, you gotta at least you know appreciate 'em. How's everything going with you right now in these sort of crazy, crazy times? Um yeah, I mean all good. Um happy to be back out and playing, even though the environment that we're competing in is is obviously a little different. Um so yeah, I mean look it's been a it's been a crazy and and really interesting year for everyone. Um but just thankful and grateful that you know things are still not normal but you Interesting, w how would you describe the difference between playing sort of in the age of COVID as you know as it as opposed to you know having fans at least following you and potentially really huge crowds following you on the course? Yeah, it's um it's different. You know, it's uh in in ways the the start of of weeks is actually a little bit easier. Um like practice days and stuff. You can I feel like I'm spending more time at the golf course. Uh, you're not really expending as much energy physically or mentally in terms of bumping into people, signing autographs, all that stuff. So but then once you get into the tournament, um, that's when it starts to feel different, you know, especially on the weekend. You know, you're in contention. Um, you know, you usually get all these feelings, you know, final grip or last few grips going off on a Saturday or a Sunday, and you just don't have that. And I think that's what's been really interesting. And and for me personally, um it's been sort of hard to focus on the course at times, um, usually with the crowds and the atmosphere, you know, you're really you know, it's it's easy for you to focus on what you're doing, but then, you know, if all you're hearing are the birds chirping in the trees and you know, your mind can wander a little bit. So uh that's probably been the biggest challenge for me on the course is just just trying to keep my focus and and concentration levels where they need to be, uh, you know, all the way around. Um and it's been good. I mean, the first four tournaments back I've re I've realized that and I've learned from it. Um, you know, this is the way it's going to be going forward. So um, you know, it's nice to play those few events and and get a feel for for how some of these bigger tournaments coming up are are gonna feel. That's interesting because I always think about having especially if I'm trying to imagine what it would feel like for you when there are large crowds, having to focus in and ignore the crowd. But it sounds like not having them there actually makes the focus a little bit harder when you'd think it would be the opposite. I'm so used to playing in front of people, right? So um whenever I play at home with friends or whatever, that's when I do find it the hardest to concentrate. So that's probably why I'm finding it this way as well. It's you know, since I was you know fifteen, sixteen, all I've done is play golf in front of people. And now I I don't do that. So it's, you know it's not the norm for me. You know, so you're if anything, you're sort of taken out of your comfort zone a little bit whenever there aren't people there. And um that's sort of strange to say, but it's uh Definitely. I think some of at least the Hodinki readers would be interested to know And sort of when you knew, at what point did you sort of know? And I I feel like it might have been at a young age, like this is gonna be it. This is the thing I'm gonna do. Yeah, it was from a young age. I mean, I think um you know, I was quite sporty growing up, so I I played quite a few sports. Um soccer, tennis, uh a little bit of rugby at one stage. Um but golf was always the the thing that I excelled at and the thing that I was the best at. So yeah, from a young age I knew that uh I had a talent for it. Um but I didn't really, you know, I I enjoyed it. I I loved what I did. I loved the fact that I was better than everyone else at it. Um but I I didn't really know that it was a thing I was going to do. Um I mean I'm a maybe say something, you know, as a innocent and naive kid that I was you know gonna be a professional golfer and win majors and all that stuff, but I didn't really know that until I was probably fifteen or sixteen, that I knew that I had the capability of turning pro. Um and at the start it was just about trying to make a living from the game, right? You know, that was you know you turn pro and that was sort of what it was about. And then once you get on tour and you realize that you can go further than that, that's that's when I started to readjust my goals and be like, well, you know, I you know, it isn't just about making a living now, it's about winning tournaments, about it's about winning majors, it's about trying to be the best. So um yeah, it's been you know, golf has been a part of my life the whole way through. But but I would say since sort of my my mid teens is is when I knew it's it's what I wanted to do. You and I are about the same age. So would you say Tiger Woods was sort of that that icon for you coming up that that one person you sort of watched and followed as a kid? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Uh I think anyone in in our age group. Um, you know, I I I I remember even before Tiger turned pro, I remember watching him win the the three US amateurs in a row. Uh and then ninety-seven, he wins the masters, his first major, and then from there. Um yeah, so Tiger was a a huge hero of mine growing up and I had a poster of him uh on my bedroom wall. Uh I knew all his records and achievements and uh wanted the latest and greatest Nike stuff all the time and anything he used or anything he did. Um that's what I tried to do. So uh yeah, Tiger it's been a huge uh a huge influence on my life, especially and as a you know, young a youngster growing up and trying to emulate what he was doing. But then also since turning pro and and getting to know him a little bit. Um, you know, he's honestly he's been a pretty good friend on the tour too, so that's that's been pretty cool. You know, it's you know, when your idols can become your rivals and that's that's sort of what's happened. Definitely. So I have to bring you back to 2011 because at the US Open, that's actually the course in my hometown. So congressional. Oh okay. Bethesda. Bethesda, exactly. So I was uh I was there. Um I wasn't there on Sunday, but I was there on uh on Thursday and Friday watching. Um and you were different back then. You had the longer hair, totally different, totally different look. So take us back to long hair Rory, you know, running away with the US Open. I mean that must have been just a crazy feeling. I mean you're twenty one years old just running away with it. Yeah, different. Um yeah, I I I it it honestly seems like a lifetime ago. Um you know, and it is. It's gonna be a decade ago next year. Um I think uh I don't know. I I you know I I think back to that time and I think back to the you know that that tournament and winning by eight shots and um winning you know and just sort of the um the ease of it all and not the ease, like the I feel like I I look back then and there was a lot less thought about everything that I was doing. Um I was very raw, it was all talent, it was all um just relying on that where I I feel as if I've got I've got more experienced and and I know a little bit more about myself and about my game and I sort of probably manage myself a little bit better. Um but it was just, you know, some weeks you just show up and you're on and you you try to ride that wave of momentum and and that's what I did that week. Um 'cause it it's not as if it it sorta came out of nowhere. I mean, I was playing okay in twenty eleven. It wasn't as if I you know had great results, but it was just you know you turn up some weeks and you and you just feel good about a place and where you're at. And um I love congressional. I I loved it the first time I played it. I thought it was a course that was right up my alley and and suited my my style of play. Um but I never expected to go out and and do what I did that week. Um so yeah, I'd I'd love to I'd love to you know, obviously it's been a while since I've won a major but um and I'd take winning them by one instead of eight shots, but uh it was a it's a pretty cool feeling. Um but yeah, it it seems like a lifetime ago and honestly it it's a little bit of a blur. I I remember some parts of the week, but I definitely need to watch it back on uh like on YouTube or something to remember everything that happened. Yeah, you definitely made what was considered to be a pretty hard course, at least for people who played it, looked pretty easy, which was which was amazing because it was it was one of those one of those things for sure. Yeah, I think uh all the all the players were cursing me because we went to the Olympic club the next week and s uh the next year in San Francisco and and the USGA made sure to set it up uh a little bit more difficult. So I want to like talk about watches a little bit. This is Hodinky after all. Sure, exactly. How did you even get into watches in the first place. And do you find there's a similar sort of connection between, you know, enthusiasm about something, passion for something, collecting, for example? I've I've always been into watches, um, even when I was a teenager. Um so any money that I had I would save. Or I remember my first uh my first big paycheck uh after a good finish on the European tour, you know, I went straight to um a jewelry store and and bought myself a watch, a watch I wanted for a while. Um So it's always been a it's always been somewhat of a passion of mine. Um and as the years have gone on, you start to learn more and then being exposed to different companies and and the craftsmanship and the brands and what they stand for and and how that sort of aligns with you I think that's all really really cool um so it's been a big thing and I think as a as a guy it's sort of there's not you know I I don't really wear bracelets or I mean I wear a wedding ring, but don't can't really change that much or necklaces or whatever else. So as an as an accessory, it's the it's the one thing that you can change and and sort of um you know sort of mix it up a little bit um so that so that's why I've always I've always enjoyed it and I've always you know I'm I I follow you guys on Instagram and I'm I'm looking at at watches all the time and I' obviouslym a brand ambassador for Omega and I love Omega watches and I have a bunch and I I I I've started to sort of collect them too but it's not as if I don't look at other cool things that are happening in the in the watch world either. So for sure. And and for for those of us who didn't come up the way that you did, what's it like for a young kid who turns pro and you get to, you know, you get to be a brand ambassador and you get access to a lot of cool co,ol watches, and especially for somebody like you, who you said you already were very much into watches to begin with, what's it like to sort of all of a sudden have that kind of great access and get to, you know, be exposed to really cool pieces and and and things like that. It is. Look, it is. It's really, really cool. And I I get that I'm in a privileged position. You know, a lot of these, you know, I still like there's there's been, you know, a few omega pieces, even though I'm a brand ambassador, that I will pay for myself because I want them. I mean when I won the FedEx Cup last year, um I bought myself the Omega Turbion because uh that's something that I I wanted for a while and I wanted to treat myself whenever I I I did something um that I felt merited getting something something like that. So um but it is it's it's cool to be exposed and I think as well, it's cool to to just learn how some of these pieces are made and the detail that goes into them and how long some of you know how long some of these things take to be created and um you know, like the the turbion, it's just it's it's one person working on this thing for for such a long time. And and I think it's that, and that's when you you know we talk about wine as well and getting exposed to that. And I I obviously enjoy drinking it and I enjoy the taste and and all of that stuff, but I also enjoy hearing the stories about what went into making this wine and okay, the the weather this year actually wasn't so good, so this is what we had to do. We had to, you know, the harvest was early or it was later, or we had to do this or that, or it you know, so all of that is so there all the stories behind these things. Um, and it just so happens that watches and wine are are very collectible at the minute and they're they're very sought after. For sure. And I I did a little diving into your Instagram too and saw that you're a pretty big speedy Tuesday fan. So you you you wear the Speedmaster pretty often is that is that a watch that you you sort of tend to to fall back to a lot of the time? I do. I I've always loved the look of a chronograph. Um so it's something that I do I do wear quite a lot. Um Omega actually made me uh this Speedmaster for my 30th birthday um that they released a a limited uh a limited run of and um this is one that is pretty special to me because there's not many around. And yeah, I I wear this one quite a lot. I actually say that I actually had to get a new wedding ring because my w my other wedding ring's platinum. But I got a I got like a gold and titanium one to sort of match this watch because I wear it so much. That's great. Yeah, that's the Speedmaster fifty-seven, right? That was for your favorite that's a really cool watch. Yeah, yeah, I I wear that one quite a bit. It's uh again, it's nice to know that you've got something on your wrist that not a lot of other people have, I guess. For sure. And on that note, you also got a hand in designing a watch or developing a watch, the ultralight. Yeah. The ultralight. Yeah. What is that process like? How does how do you get into the development process of a watch? What's the connection of that watch specifically to sport? I don't know if it's golf specifically or you know, just sort of, you know, what what was that like? Yeah, it doesn't have to be golf specifically. Uh I think it's light enough that you could play, you know, basically any sport um with the ultralight on. So I guess the the guys at Omega came to me and said, Look, we're trying to develop a watch that you know you can wear on the course if if you want to and and play with it and um sort of make it really sporty, but still have the integrity of what Omega is all about. So we're trying to make a new movement. We're trying to create it with materials that will withstand the shock of of hitting a golf ball or a tennis ball or whatever you're doing. so I mean they really I mean I feel like they really thought outside of the box to to create the ultralight and I feel proud that I had some little hand in it. I obviously got a couple of prototypes at the start and you know I I give them my feedback but at the end of the day I'm not a watchmaker so you know they they take my feedback and they they tweak it a little bit and um you know they came out with the the final product that everyone saw it uh in Switzerland last year. And it's it was a cool it was a really cool process to be a part of. I'm grateful that they uh that they listened to the feedback and they and and they you know valued my input. Um and yeah, it's a it's a cool watch and I I wear it I wear it a bunch and you know if I'm if I'm out and about and I know that I'm you know getting my hands dirty or if I'm doing something with some activity. Um, you know, the ultralight's what I go to. So it's uh it's cool to be a part of something like that. And um yeah, it's a it's a very cool watch. It is really cool. And I guess like the as an artist you get to sort of be honest about about the work. So you you're happy with how it turned out, I'm guessing. So on a scale of cool to super cool, where where does it sort of fall in that sliding scale for you? Yeah. Um it's cool. I I'd say the one thing that like obviously it's you know with with brands you're you're trying to you're trying to still keep it in line with all of the other things that you you create, right? So it's you know and there's little details on it like |
| Stephen Pulvirent | the like the lines on the face which you know it could be like uh the grooves of a golf club |
| John Reardon | . But I the one thing that I would love to see just because it the the movement inside is so cool if they could create like a skeleton version where you could actually see what because it is it's an incredible you know piece of engineering basically. So um maybe one day we'll see. But it is still a very cool watch. And I like the pop-out crown. So the push button crown is really a cool thing too. And it it is. And especially, you know, if I usually if I'm playing golf and I wear it, I wear it on my right hand or my right wrist, just because it just feels a little with the glove on and stuff, sometimes it just gets caught and but um if you if you do wear it on your left hand it definitely it it makes such a difference being able to just push that crown in. For sure so do do you you I don't I don't think I've seen it but what what's your position on on golfing while wearing a watch just for those out there who do or don't um I mean I think it has to be the right watch that you're wearing to to play golf with a a watch on because you know you can't just go out with any watch and and walk a golf ball around because the shock of that is gonna you know ruin the mechanism inside. For sure. So it has to be the right watch that that you wear. And and that's why there was so much thought um and work put into the ultralight to make sure that you know no matter what you're doing activity wise, you know, the movement the movement was going to be uh durable and intact. So uh but I'm all for you know wearing wearing a watch, wearing wearing watches while you're um you know doing whatever sort of activity and um you know the lighter it can be and the less intrusive it is, the better. So I saw also that you have uh a speedmaster, I think from eighty nine. So it was a fellow nineteen eighty nine or birth or is birt bhirth the year thing. Is that something I guess it's pretty special for you? I think it's a really cool thing to have if you have an opportunity to get a watch you love from your birth year for sure. Yeah, definitely. Um, you know, that was another really uh nice gift that that the Omega um my Omega family I call them uh you know sort of present to me and um yeah it's really cool. I I wore that watch on my wedding day which was really cool. Uh that's great. So it it's got some great memories for me. Um so yeah, it's uh I don't wear it too often. I sort of try to keep it, you know, I I I bring it out on special occasions. Um but it's really cool to have a to have a watch that that was created on your birth year. You know, they had to go into the archives and and sort of try to dig one out for me, but they found one which was which is really nice. So the PGA is coming up, you know, it's going to be in San Francisco at Harding Park, originally scheduled in May and pushed to August. Does it feel a little bit at least you know, the circumstances aren't great, but generally speaking, the PGA would be in August before the schedule changed, I think a couple of years ago. So is it a little bit more familiar just sort of having this tournament this time of year? You know, at least, you know, for you? Yeah, I mean, look, I'm I'm just happy that a PJ championship's getting |
| Stephen Pulvirent | played at all. Um but in a way, it's nice that it's in August, especially San Francisco, 'cause it it there could have been a couple of cold days in May. Uh San Francisco's just obviously the climate there can be you know it can be really nice or it can be gloomy and cold |
| John Reardon | and you know hopefully you know we just we've got a better chance of some decent weather uh in August. So I'm yeah, look, I'm I'm happy to be plan. I'm happy to be heading west in a couple of weeks time and I'm getting ready for it. As a two time PGA champion, does this particular major hold a special place for you? It does in a way. Yeah, I've gotten to know quite a few people over the years there and it does it holds something special. The traditions are cool. Usually they have a champion's dinner every year and and the the winner of the previous year hosts it and and that's something that's really cool. I've had some really uh cool times at that. Um obviously this year they can't do it, which is which is unfortunate. But um yeah, it's a you know it's it's a cool trophy. It's cool to have my name on it a couple of times and hopefully, you know, get my name on it a third time here in a in a little bit. So every year, do you train a little bit differently? Do you change something about your game? Try to tweak some things. This being the first major of this season, is there something that you're looking to bring to that that you know you haven't, let's say, just even last year, even though you had an amazing season? Yeah, I think um because of you know the whole COVID situation um you know the majors fall pretty much right in the middle of the season and you're you're playing up to them and I think what what this year will allow not just me, but maybe |
| Stephen Pulvirent | a few of the other guys is maybe to ramp up, you know, to sort of ramp up the intensity for for the bigger tournaments. You know, there's so many golf tournaments that we play nowadays. You know, say we play twenty-five events, you know, four of those events are majors, |
| John Reardon | but you know, they sort of just come in the middle of the season and you know there's maybe not as much time to to prepare for them. Um so I think with with the PGA coming up in August, um US Open in September, and then the Masters in November, it it allows us time to maybe just ramp up the intensity a little bit and and really make those the focus of of this year. And that's really been my thing. Coming out |
| Stephen Pulvirent | of the lockdown, it's like, okay, obviously there's all these other events that are important, but you know, the three things |
| John Reardon | that I was really thinking of is PGA, US, Open Masters, and trying to get my game in good shape for you know for August, September, uh, August and September especially. And then we have a little break before before Augusta. So um yeah I think if anything it just it's going to allow me and and the other guys a chance to to really hone in on on getting ready for the major championships. Is it easy to sort of block out the fact that schedule wise everything is so different that a US Open is in September, that you're not in Augusta in April? You know, is that a weird thing? Is it gonna be playing that course when I I'm assuming all the flowers won't be in bloom the way they normally would be in April. Not that that makes a huge difference for you. But is there is there any sort of mental difference there? I don't know. I mean Augusta have a way of doing things. I wouldn't be surprised if the flowers were blooming in November. Um not re I again, you know, there was a time in March or April when it didn't look like any of these things would be played |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . So to be able to just play them even under extraordinary circumstances where there mightn't be fans and you know they're not in the they're not in the |
| John Reardon | you know, the same month of the year that they usually are. It it doesn't make a difference. I you know, I think everyone's just glad that they're they're being played and um you know at the end of the day someone has to win them so um you know you gotta show up and and and be ready. For sure. Now I gotta ask before we go, for any any given tournament, you know, whether it's press day, let's say you win the tournament and you're holding up the trophy, how many watches are you bringing to a tournament and and is there a uh choice each day you wearing a different watch or do you bring one watch for a tournament? You know, how does how does that selection process go for you? I bring multiple. Um mostly to do with what I'm wearing. Um so I'll probably bring four. Yeah, usually four. I've got like a little travel case. Um and it fits it fits four. So um yeah I'll usually bring four. Uh this one usually comes with me everywhere. You know the ultralight usually goes with me everywhere and then I'll try to do like another like I've got a um a black and gold planet ocean um that I that I wear quite a lot. Uh and then usually because it seems like all the rage noise like steel with a blue face. Seems like these are just popping up everywhere. So I usually I usually travel with one of those. So I've got like a um a Seamaster GMT uh steel with a blue face that I that I travel with quite a bit too. That's awesome. I think I've seen you bring the moon watch with you on on at least to some tournaments as well. Yeah, the moon watch, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the moon watch sometimes. Uh I've got a you know, I've got a couple of those. But um Yeah, I I switch it up, but you know, right now the the those this one, the ultralight, uh the planet ocean and then the GMT are usually are the four that I'm I'm going with. That's a lot of fun. I think that at least everybody on Hodinky will have some fun watch spotting, trying to see what you got on. Exactly. When it comes time for the tournament. Well, listen, Rory, really thanks for joining us today, taking the time out of your day to talk to us a little bit about golf, about watches, about life in this sort of crazy times that we're all trying to figure out in our own, you know, unique ways. So we really appreciate it. It's my pleasure. Uh appreciate you having me on. Yeah, and best of luck at the PGA and we're all going to be watching. Thank you |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . And now a word from this week's sponsor. I was excited to sit down with Zenith CEO Julian Tornare to talk about how the manufacturer has been dealing with the last few pretty crazy months. Julian turned out to be wearing the new Chronomaster Revival Manufacture Edition, and we talked about what this watch means to the history of the brand, as well as how they've transitioned to a world that's gone mostly digital. It sounds like Zenith's been busier than ever. It's good to see you, Julian. How are things in Switzerland |
| Julian Tornare | ? They're okay, they're good, they're good. You know, things are getting uh step by step back to normal. So we are happy because it was a tough uh period of time. But now no it's uh better every day. That |
| Stephen Pulvirent | 's great to hear. I mean the world's obviously been been a little bit crazy lately. I think that's fair to say. But uh how how have you guys been adapting to a a new normal at uh at Zenith |
| Julian Tornare | ? For sure. I mean you know one of the things I I'm convinced is that during crisis this is when you need to be even more active. Zenit has been named uh by by quite a few people from the industry as one of the brand that has been the most active during this period. And I'm happy and proud of my team because they did a great job and I'm convinced that we have been gaining market share over the last few months. I've never been so much in touch with end clients, with the different channels, through email, through video, through presentation. But I have to say I learned a lot about the Zenit client during the few mont |
| Stephen Pulvirent | hs. I I wonder on a on a personal note, uh what what has been the watch that you've been wearing the most uh over these last couple months, you know, through through the isolation, through quarantine, all of this, which which watch has been your sort of go-to? I'll be very honest with you. |
| Julian Tornare | Uh during this period it was not an easy period for anyone, and we all had a lot of negativity around us, and we were surrounded by negative news, and you switch on TV, you listen to the radio. I'm a very positive person and I needed to have uh something on my wrist bring a lot of positivity. And I've been wearing that watch actually, the manufacture edition. It's this famous uh blue dial, uh three shades of blue dye but for me uh this watch represents very much uh the strategy of zenith saying to connect the past to the future and to continue to make new things as these people who made that watch in the in the 80s did. So it's been it's been a watch full of emotion for me and I have to say I needed um I need that positive energy during |
| Stephen Pulvirent | this few months. Yeah. I I think it's interesting that the El Primero is is ultimately a movement, but over the years, Zenith has sort of created a design language around that movement. How would you describe what makes outside of the movement itself, what makes an El Primero an El Primero? |
| Julian Tornare | As you said, the El Primero is is a movement. And uh at Zenit for many years we have been more known for a movement than for a watch or for the brand. And and and that's that's good people often ask me is it a strength or a weakness i always say guys it's a strength it's amazing to have a movement like the el Primoro it's probably the most well known movement uh the the importance for for us now is to to bring iconic watches. And that's why we're doing the DeFi and the DeFi twenty one and the different things that are also equipped with an El Primero. I mean the work we've done is rebalancing, you know, the influence of the El Primero, which again I want to keep as a key uh asset of the brand, but it should not put the brand behind the movement, you know. That's that's super important |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . Yeah, I mean, even just within the El Primero family this year, I mean we,'ve seen the Chronomaster Revival Shadow, we've seen the Revival Manufacture Edition. Outside of that, we've seen the Divide 21 Ultraviolet. I I wonder amongst this year's new releases, is there one that stands out to you as as sort of core and and most exciting maybe? |
| Julian Tornare | Uh we'll definitely pick uh the the shadow because the story behind the shadow is is is quite amazing and you know, in August 2019 we launched the re-edition of the A384. Immediately became a bestseller. That particular shape, which is very zenith by the way, had never been launched, relaunched since the original one in its original size. It was done in a larger case where, in my opinion, we lost a bit the elegance of the watch, but now relaunching it in 37 was a big thing. So launching the shadow for me was how do we combine an iconic shape owned by Zenit with today? We use microblast titanium to go as close as possible to this particular watch that we found in our uh museum as well, which was black PVD from 71. So I say this is fantastic, you know, then it is about authenticity. And once again, we're gonna launch a watch that's linked to something true from our past, from our DNA. In in periods of times like today, everything is shaken up and I think people tend to run away a bit from the the the bling bling, the show off and they want to stick to real stories, real value, substance, content, and these are elements that are very important in turn in times of crisis. So I believe it came in the at the right moment |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . So I'm sure you can't tell us too much right now, but what are you most looking forward to about the rest of 2020 at Zenith |
| Julian Tornare | ? There is something in particular, and uh as you guessed, I mean I'm not gonna be able to tell you the whole thing, but I'm gonna tell you that in October we launch a piece will be made in a certain material and in a certain way that's only only been done in the very high end. Uh with very high end watch price, as you can imagine. I'm talking hundred fifty, two hundred K, three hundred K. And for the first time, then it will be the one coming with this kind of watch. Done in a beautiful, elegant way, in a totally different price segment. I cannot tell you more, but ha I haven't told anyone anything, so this is the most I can say. But wait for October. There will be a watch. I mean for production constraint they won't be more than I would say a hundred or hundred twenty per year. So it's gonna be very exclusive but it's it's one of the coolest watch and and I and I did wear it as a test. I was a lucky uh tester uh during confinement so I've been wearing it at home and I loved it so much. So I think it's gonna be somet |
| Stephen Pulvirent | hing so special. You will love it for sure. Thank you so much for talking to us. It's always great to get some insight from you into to the industry and into Zenith. Uh and it sounds like there's there's quite an exciting year ahead. I'm looking forward to the next time we can meet in Real. Thank you so much, Steven. Thank you to Julian for taking the time to talk. And if you want to learn more, visit zenithwatches.com. All right, let's get back to the show. Up next, we have my conversation with Collectibility's John Reardon. Hey John, good to see you. Hey Steven, how are things? Good. Things are good. I'm uh I'm coming to you live from uh Minneapolis, Minnesota. It's the first time I've left New York in I guess like six months. It's uh a little little weird to not be in the city, but uh I see that you are |
| John Reardon | in your office as well. Yes, this is only my second day back in collectibility HQ. Uh the last few months have been spent at home uh dutifully quarantining with my family. And uh it's strange just not being surrounded by people. My immediate family in particular. Yeah, I'm sure. |
| Stephen Pulvirent | Um and also like you've you've been in businesses for a long time that like you're like a huge part of your job is interfacing with people. Like you're not sitting in an office kind of like doing your own thing all day. You're you're mix mixing it up with folks. Yeah historically my life has been |
| John Reardon | defined by travel and people and face to face, uh and of course watches. And and uh over the last few months it's been me, my family and uh and of course watches, which was to say I think there's still some pretty So so no complaints. It's just we're all like uh learning to to walk again. It's uh it's a whole new reality globally |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . Yeah, that's wild. Well I mean we'll we'll do the whole backstory of of you and your career. Um but I wanted to start off actually giving people a little bit of insight into how we met. Uh you you might be the first person like properly in the watch industry who I met. I was freelancing a story for business week about the Graves Fullerton auction. I was still living in Chicago. It was uh 2012, spring of 2012. And uh I called you to interview you about about the sale and you told me like if you've never been to a watch auction, you've you've got to come see this, it's gonna be awesome. Turned out it happened two days after I moved to the East Coast. I wasn't even living in New York yet. Uh I was living in New Haven with my my now wife uh for a couple weeks before my apartment was ready and uh trained in for the day and saw the auction, was totally bit by the bug, ended up through our our friend Eric Wind, uh meeting Ben and that's how I ended up at Hodinky. So uh this this is all your fault is what I'm trying to say. You could blame me or thank me later. I think I think we'll do both, honestly. I |
| John Reardon | think it's uh it's it's it's both. But uh I remember that your phone call. I was uh I was sitting, it was at Sotheby's and uh next to to Darren Schnipper uh and and we had that uh chat and I just remember you asking the right questions. You're genuinely inquisitive about what this whole watch thing was all about. And I was uh so excited that you took me up on the offer to show up at the auction. Because everyone is is always afraid to even show up at an auction. Uh and you you showed up, you learned about it, you caught the bug, and uh and and uh hopefully you'll be doing this for many, many more years |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . Yeah. It was funny looking back. I mean like I I remember getting off the subway and like I had no idea where Sotheby's was and just like the walk to Sutheby's. I was like, Where am I going? Like what what have I signed up for here? And then uh you know, at the time I didn't of these people were, but in in hindsight, I mean, you know, I was sitting right behind uh William Macena, I was, you know, James Lambdon was across the room, Michael Safty was there, like kind of all these people who have in a funny way become like a very big part of my life over the last, you know, I guess better part of a decade uh were all there. It was a it was a funny little uh funny little da |
| John Reardon | y. Oh that's uh that was an extraordinary sale. And I wish we can go back in time and buy some of those watches because uh you you and me both. Wow. |
| Stephen Pulvirent | Yeah. What was it what was it like putting that sale together? I mean that was I mean you you already had a pretty good amount of auction experience, which we'll get into, but that sale I think probably marked kind of a a new kind of moment for you, right? |
| John Reardon | It was nothing like the the Time Museum sales like like in 1999 I was spoiled being part of uh the masterpieces from the Time Museum uh part one that's true including the sale of the Henry Graves super complication. So I mean that set the benchmark very high. I remember being rather disappointed of how few people were in the room for the Graves Fullerton cell. Being um I I just I expected it would have had a little more buzz and excitement, which uh I think in recent years we've seen um rekindled in the auction world. But it was um you remember it was pretty sparse room. Uh yeah, it it wasn't pac.ks. Yeah Uh in the prices that things were going for, I was um I wasn't so excited. I mean, they were quite reasonable. Um and uh many mutual friends of of yours and mine bought uh some great watches at incredibly low prices in retrospect. Um, but being part of the preparation of of that sale was uh from an emotional point of view, is quite sad um is um Pete Pete Fullerton passed away, which was uh tragic and unexpected. That's Henry Graves' grandson. And uh I grew to be friends with him and uh and that was that was hard. And each of those pieces I remember him just speaking in detail about they were his babies. They were his uh his passion and the way he connected to his grandfather as he referred to uh to to Mr. Graves was was magical. So when the gavel goes down at an auction, it's it's a closed chapter. Um, but then uh a new story begins and and you see these watches resurfacing and recirculating with collectors and uh and that's fun to track um but you always go back to the person who originally owned them and uh cherished him and he he was addicted to watches. I mean he was uh ahead of his time well he kind of I guess it was in his DNA from Mr. Gravesy. Yeah, true. Um just wanted to talk about watches, discuss their preservation, um, compare and contrast and criticize. Uh always had criticisms of uh how protect floop can do things better. And uh and it's the same conversations we see online today uh were were happening twenty, thirty, forty, fifty years ago |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . Yeah. That's wild. I mean and you you've you mentioned that he he kind of like had watches in his DNA and in a funny way you you did too. I mean you grew up in Bristol, Connecticut, right next to the American Watch and Clock Museum, right? Y Yes, it was uh |
| John Reardon | it was it is extraordinary. I mean I think about uh my my kids are old enough now they're getting braces. So I'm discovering the world of orthodontics for a second time in my life. Um and when I was a child, I went to see uh an orthodontist called Dr. Warner, whose uh office was in his home, which happened to be the Sessions Mansion of Sessions Clock Company. And it was one of the most beautiful homes I've I've ever seen, a hundred-year-old m mega mansion. And uh Dr. Werner had his uh office in this uh this this massive residential building. And I just uh I I think back to the like the magic of seeing clocks on the wall and the whole idea of just growing up in a community that was centered around these memes. Um like in Connecticut it was all like Seth Thomas, Ingram, Sessions, these people built um that part of Connecticut. And everywhere I went, I was surrounded by it. So I was very fortunate to have a pathway to the American Clock and Watch Museum, which I was a I was a teenager when I first went there. And uh and that set me on this crazy path that uh I'm still on |
| Stephen Pulvirent | and so when you when you went to the museum, what what was kind of the next step for you in terms of your your enthusiasm? Like what was what were the first clocks and watches you were excited about and how did you sort of like get into this |
| John Reardon | ? When I first went, it was um I was essentially dared by my my b um brother in law. Well currently my brother in law at that point of time he's dating my sister. He was uh and is a a watch collector and he encouraged me to go to this museum which was close to my house and I literally laughed at him uh and and said what kind of loser would go to a watch and clock museum. And uh the two kind of losers having this conversation right now. That's exact |
| Stephen Pulvirent | ly |
| John Reardon | I was a a s a smug teenager, but I I went and um I uh my eyes just opened up when I went into this world. It was it was um mechanical beauty, history, science, art, all combined in one. And for me, local history too, where whether when you see a sessions and then you were just in the home of where the owner of sessions was, it just connects all the dots and yeah and then I just became obsessed and um thanks to um uh the curator uh of the time Stuart Mitchell and uh the former curator Dana Blackwell, these uh these two gentlemen, they they taught me about watches and clocks, and it was my introduction to an amazing world. I'll never forget those uh those first few years at the museum are just extraordinary. Uh because it's it's it's it's like people today discovering watches online for the first time. They get obsessed, they go down rabbit holes and they learn and they learn. And you could do that from the comfort of your own home today in our yeah uh quarantine inspired world. Um but back back in the nineties, uh the only way to do it is through people and uh in learning and uh I was able to uh disassemble uh clean and overhaul dozens if not hundreds of clocks during that experience and and that that was fun and and uh yeah I'll I'll never forget that uh th those early years in the in the the clock world at le |
| Stephen Pulvirent | ast. Yeah. I think that's something people may not may not know about you is like you're you're not just a watch enthusiast but like you also have a technical background. Like you're you you have done restoration work, like you're you're really a technician as much as a as a scholar |
| John Reardon | . Yes, not at the highest level for sure. Um but uh yeah I can I can disassemble and put back together together a clock and uh even at at my height I was able to do a three train movement and I was very proud of that when I was able to uh to get one of these back together and running and functioning for for years. Um I still collect clocks. Um I still do a little work for for fun with my personal collection. Um but watches are another story and that's why I have so much respect for watchmakers. I I just don't have the patience, the uh the stability with my hands. Uh I just uh I can't I can't do the same work with clocks as I can with watches. It's just uh it's next level and uh I just I'm just in awe of what people can do. But But I'm able to watch what they do and understand what they're doing and respect w what they're doing because I can't do it. And that's uh just admiration and and a |
| Stephen Pulvirent | we. And then when when did you kind of look at this and say like okay this this can maybe be my career like this can be my life's work and I can like really set out on this path long term um and and make this make this my li |
| John Reardon | fe uh in in high school is I mean I guess I'll call it moonlighting when I I had a job. I was doing three different jobs at the working at the museum, which was volunteer work, working at a funeral home, and and also working as a lifeguard. That's a trio right there. That's that's no joke. Uh and the uh come to think of it, the uh the funeral home that I worked at was um the home of uh the founder of Welch clocks. So I never even thought of that. So it's like everywhere around me. Wild the all it was clock horologically related. So in short, I started um my free time um cleaning and overhauling clocks for like friends and family. All of a sudden you're getting a hundred dollars here and a hundred dollars here and then I started to uh expand it. I just found my original business card from when I was uh 15 years old. Um that's awesome. And uh it's simply it said John John Reardon. I think I actually at that point said specialist in clocks and uh I didn't even know the word horology. And uh word got out there that I could overhaul your you know your great great grandfather's clocks. And uh all of a sudden I was charging $300, $350 per overhaul. And at that point of time that was a ton of money for me and uh I was obsessed. I was doing so many uh different jobs as much as I could with all the spare time I could put together. So that that's when I knew it would be um not necessarily a career but it'd be a hobby for for the rest of my life |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . And then you you made a jump into the auction world later in in the late nineties, right? Like ninety seven ish? Yep. It was nineteen ninety |
| John Reardon | seven, right after finishing school, um I accepted an internship thanks to uh an introduction, Dana Blackwell from the museum to Darren Knipper at at Sutherby's. And Darren kindly took me in and uh wow, that that was a crazy time because I never thought I'd live in New York City. And uh and I very quickly learned that living in New York City wasn't uh inexpensive and I was literally being paid nothing. For the first three months it was um just an internship at uh at at Sotheby's. So I I remember uh put my my resume together. I went to to Wempe. Um I've never shared this publicly. This one's for you. This one's for you, Rudy. I went to uh to Wempey and I just uh literally was begging for a job and uh and they they they were like no we're not interested. So then I I uh was like all right let's try Torneau. I went to Torneau. Actually did get up to the a second interview um and uh that was a possibility. I remember for many of you might know Andrew Turin um and I almost almost went to Torneau early on in my career and uh I'd I'd I'd probably still be there selling watches if that happened. Um but they uh at the end of the day, that didn't work out. And then the last person, the last place I went, almost got a job at Bloomingdale's selling watches. Interesting. That uh that also didn't work out. So I went back to Sotherby's and I was like, hey, I'm willing to work for anything. I was like, I tested the market and I can't get eight dollars an hour. Um, but I really love vintage watches, and uh and amazingly, Darren gave me the opportunity and I was able to get a job as an administrator in uh Sutherby's watch department. And that was one of the most difficult jobs I've ever had. Um for and and you know the the administrators in the watch departments at all the houses have one of the most difficult jobs in the world. It's uh you're the gatekeeper to all of the uh the problems. Yeah exactly you're the fixer and that's the way you learn the business. Um you're dealing with the buyers, you're dealing with the sellers, you're dealing with all of the intricate intricacies of the bureaucracy. And uh and that was uh that's where where I cut my teeth at first |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . And then you mentioned the the Time Museum sales. Can we can we talk about that for a little bit? I think those are something that maybe today's watch collectors may not even know a lot about. I think they they like were just early enough that folks who like really came in to watch us through the internet might might not even know what these sales were. So can you g give us a little background on this? |
| John Reardon | Oh it's true. It's uh so Seth Atwood was one of the greatest collectors of all time. So like after the era of Graves and Packard, after JB Champion, starting the 1960s as the era of Seth Atwood. And he was a uh uh from Rockford, Illinois, an uh industrialist. If I recall, made his money like parts from like vacuums and stuff, like some various uh things. I I fact check that. But um I was able to meet Seth during my time at uh um Sutherby's and was in complete awe. He uh had his own hotel, or we'll call it a motel in Rockford, Illinois, and in the basement of this um motel was the Time Museum, which was without a doubt the greatest horological collection assembled in the 20th century. There's no competition. Um it wasn't just Patek Philippe. Of course, he had the best. He had the super complication. But with Breg A, he had uh a sympathique, which is now at the Patek Philippe Museum, with um going back into early sundials, um he had the best of the best in every category of any horological strain. He he really invested heavily ahead of the time. And I asked him once, I was like, what's it all about? Like why why do you collect? And he was one of the few people that gives a real honest answer. He's since passed, but he I think he gave a very frank answer. He said, Because I love the hunt, he was in it for the hunt. He loved searching, he loved the intrigue, he loved fighting, he loved competing, that's what it was all about. So for him to let these pieces go was not uh emotional in the same way it might be for a collector um that really is would never let go of a piece. He uh he put it together, it was time to let it go. And there's I mean there could be books written about that whole situation, but no one expected these pieces to show up at auction. And that sale December, I remember the date, December 2nd, 1999. The room was packed. It was the the who's who of uh horology of the 20th century. And uh for me to have that small part of it was a dream come true. And uh that really launched my career because you were introduced firsthand to the greatest collectors in the world, and you were here working side by side with the greatest pieces on earth. And uh I remember for like six months you have those watches, those clocks and the sundials, just uh like literally like two feet away from you. It was the ultimate it was the ultimate school. Do you remember the first time you got to hold the super complication? I do. I had to um to go to Rockford, Illinois to pick it up. Um and I remember going through um wow in pre-September 11th era like flying with uh an object like that I had to bring it back to New York, it was uh extraordinary and going through security with a uh bomb proof box containing the super complication uh led to many questions and uh and I remember making some new friends with the security guards on uh at O'Hare at the time. |
| Stephen Pulvirent | So um yeah. I can imagine trying to explain to a security guard at O'Hare that there's like a priceless, complicated pocket watch in this box must have been uh quite quite a trip. |
| John Reardon | And frankly, it ticks like a bomb. It could look like a bomb. And the box that we had was uh yeah, it was uh suspicious at best. And uh because the whole I I remember having the conversation we're like what happens if the pl a plane goes down we need to make sure the watch is safe. I mean we're we weren't even thinking about ourselves, we're thinking about the watch existing after us, which is a really horrible thought to have. Yeah. So we we did go to great lengths to find something that could survive pretty much anything. Um I bet that box is still sitting on a shelf at Southern Bees |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . That's wild. Uh and then so that that was in 99. And and do you remember kind of after the sale or you know, in the midst of the sale? I mean, the super complication is definitely the the watch everybody talks about, but are there other highlights from that sale that you still think about? Oh, for me, the |
| John Reardon | uh the tortoiseshell sympathique made for the Duke d'Orléans. Um at that point of time, and everyone makes fun of my personal email, um, which starts out with bregay. They're like, why do you have a bregae email? Um, I was obsessed with bregay, and uh to see the mind of a genius with that piece in front of you was beautiful. And just taking the pocket watch and putting it on top of the clock. And for those of you don't know what a sympathique is, what it does is the clock reaches up and sets the watch um exactly so that they work together um and that's why it's called the sympathique and uh bregae himself made very few of these i i can't remember i think it's less than a a dozen and and this particular piece in tortoise shell was just uh magic to me. And uh yes I uh I had that sitting right next to my desk for uh seemingly for a long time, has protectfully bought it, no secret, um, because you can see it at the museum uh today. And uh and that's why I mean it's it's fun when you walk around different museums or see these important collections around the world, you recall and remember where these pieces surfaced and were before. And uh it's that's it's fun. Um I had I I I think because in Stacey Permanent's book, A Grand Complication, she reveals the buyer of the Henry Grabe of Supercomplication as uh Sheikh Saoud Haltani. And uh and I can go back to that time in nineteen ninety nine when he came in and I and I showed him the watch. Um and uh he literally looked at it and said, I'll buy it. That was it. And uh Patekleep had no chance of buying that watch back. They were the d they were the underbitter, but uh the sheikh was going to buy it no matter what. And uh the sheikh is f sadly passed away and and I remember a few years back I had lunch with him and he he described museums to me uh in a way I've never thought of before. Uh he said n specifically regarding regarding the Patek Philippe Museum, he said the Patek Philippe Museum is the graveyard of all Patek Philippe. And I I was really hurt by that. I was like, how could he say that? And I yeah, wow. I asked him, like, how what do what are you saying? And he explained it to me. He's cause because a collector needs to collect. A collector needs to hunt, comes back to Seth Atwood. Um, there's always a better watch out there, and you need to keep searching and finding. But once pieces go to a museum, that's it. That's the end of the road. And in ninety nine point nine percent of the time. Like I I don't believe we'll ever see the museum, uh the protect fleet museum selling any watches. So in his mind, the museum is where it stopped. And uh and that was very powerful for me to hear that. And uh of course I love seeing pieces going to the Patek Felipe Museum, but I do recognize it might be the end of their end of their story of our lifetime at least |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . Yeah, I that's a really interesting thing and I I I I want to kind of push on that idea a little bit. And and not because I I totally disagree with it, but I'm I'm curious to kind of push on it a little bit. I mean, there there's a way in which any museum, whether it's it's a museum, you know, holding paintings or sculptures or watches or scientific instruments or whatever it is, you know, is is sort of a collection for everyone, right? Like with a ticket to the museum, you get to participate in that collection. Whereas when a watch goes into a private collection, it's private. Like it's only for that one owner or the people that owner chooses to share with, uh share his collection or her collection with. I wonder what you think about that. Like is for for a historically important watch like the super complication, like where where do you think it belongs? Does it belong in the hands of one dedicated, extremely passionate collector who can, you know, take it out once or twice a year and and look at it? Or does it belong in a place where thousands and thousands of people can see it and appreciate it every year, even if that means that it's never available again for a private collector. Wow. This is getting very philosophical for earlier computer. |
| John Reardon | All right, first of all, when I see a piece go to the Patek Philippe Museum, it's coming home. And to me, it's a very romantic appeal. I love that that happens uh today. The great pieces still go to the museum um because that that place is has almost religious significance to me i mean that that's that's where they belong now discussing shaykh uh uh saud's comment, I do understand that and and I could talk from an auction perspective when you see a piece in the wild and when you see a piece at auction exhibition, you could pick it up with the right specialist, you could open it up, you could see it you could feel it you could touch it if it's a repeater you could listen to it um you could wind it and this makes it very much alive and a way to connect once it goes to museum it's it's in a way it's in a coffin. Um no one's going in that case, no one can touch it. And uh when I go to the Patek for League Museum now, um even if I asked, if I begged, even if I had good reason to actually see a piece and hold it in my hand, it's not going to happen. It's just it's in the case and that's where it stays. So I I really look at every auction is kind of an opportunity to see pieces, especially I'm talking like the best of the best, um, for the last time because you don't know where they're going next and they they could be off the market for for generations. So um so I see both sides of that that argument of whether these great pieces belong in museums or great collections. Um I on the other hand, I know great watches that sh should be in museums that are right now on wrist and and people are probably practically jet skiing wearing these watches and that's horrifying to me. Um a collector has the responsibility to care for these pieces properly and uh and I I think most of the time that does occur |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . I think there's the there's one collection to me that strikes me as kind of a middle ground between these two things and that's the buyer collection.. Yes Uh, where like it's a private collection, but it's housed in a museum environment. But if you're the right either buyer client or in our case, you know, your journalists, like they they will take stuff out. Like I had the opportunity to put the Everest Explorer on my wrist and like that to me that to me might be the most incredible thing I've done in this job ever. Just like full stop, uh to to be able to put that watch on my wrist and obviously you can't just walk in and ask to do that, but like in the in the right circumstances, it's a more maybe living museum. Um it's a less dead museum. Um however you want to want to phrase it. But yeah, it's it's an interesting thing. It's it's tough because these watches one of the amazing things about watches, one of the things I think you and I both love about watches is the way in which they are little kind of like vessels for history. And that does carry a responsibility, but at the same time, like they're meant to be enjoyed and they were made to be used. And at what point does, you know, wearing a you know Patek split second from the thirties become s what at what point does it transition from you know serving the purpose it was originally made for to risking the history? And that's that's I think a a fuzzy line. I don't think it's a particularly clear boundary. I think that's that's well said and it's the same |
| John Reardon | with cars. Yeah oh totally cars. Yeah when you see these uh I was at the Henry Ford well it was last year.maz Aing museum by the way. And uh and once those cars are like just pulled into a corner and you don't even know if they could run or not, I can't speak on behalf of the Ford, but they're gone. Um now when you go to like a rally and you see the uh vintage Ferrari taking a sharp corner, I mean that that's magic. And uh so there's there's gotta be an answer in between. Um but these mechanical objects deserve to to live on in one shape or form. So |
| Stephen Pulvirent | totally. I mean one of the things you said a a few minutes ago that I think you know we try to hammer home to people all the time and I'll I'll just say it again is like go to auction previews. Like even if you're not buying, even if you're not bidding, even if you've never registered and you have no plan to register, even if you don't own a watch, like if you're interested in watches, go to auction previews 'cause you can you can handle the best of the best. You know, if you're respectful and you show that you're interested and you sort of like do things the right way, y you can have a multi-million dollar unique one of one thing from eighty years ago on your wrist and in your hand, and you can have a world expert sit and talk you through it. And it's it's kind of like a free masterclass uh opportunity |
| John Reardon | . And and you just answered one of the most common questions I think I receive and I'm sure Hodinky receives is like, how do I break into the industry? So many young people, they they want to say, I want they love watches, they've read every word that uh they've seen online and they want to be part of the industry. And my my first answer is always first, look at the auction catalogs online. It's free. Go to the auction previews. Cause then you could meet and engage the people and see the community at work. Um I'm just shocked there's so many cases where I I see people uh even that have like high presence on Instagram saying that they're the biggest experts in the world, yet they're not even part of the community. They've never actually showed up to any auction. Um sometimes they asked do you need a ticket and I'm like, Wow, you're you're out there saying you're connected to everyone, but you've never actually gone to Geneva to a watch auction and um and you live an hour away. So it's uh I think it's it's just people need to be invited and and told that they're more than welcome to show up the auction previews. All the houses will will welcome you, and it's such a fun way to learn. And when you you walk in,'re gonna see people you know and uh in in passionate conversations, debates, um, some of the best drama I've ever seen. It was just um collectors uh and specialists arguing that preview because everyone cares so much as they should uh about their opinions. So uh it's I I can't wait until we could all come together and go to these auctions. I mean so I mean it seems like now distant history where we could all come together to these uh exhibitions but it it'll it'll come back together soon enough. |
| Stephen Pulvirent | It will what what advice do you have for people going to previews? Like whether whether it's their first preview or their hundredth preview, like are there two or three things that you think you should you should always do? Questions you should always ask when you're when you're at an auction preview |
| John Reardon | ? Uh number one is listen. Um you could learn a lot. Um I think one way that I've learned and I'm just I'm going back. Well, I continue to learn, we all do, is when you have a watch on the table and you all all these exhibitions I always have a table set up where well this is in a pre-COVID world, but uh where you could sit together and and talk about a piece. And those conversations, that dialogue, that debate is where you could really learn okay was this what's been done to this dial what's been done to this case is the crown original I mean this is uh this is where it all begins so number one go, to the previews, listen. And you'll find at the exhibitions typically these are people that have skin in the game. They're engaged, the real buyers, the real purchasers, their owners. They're not people online just throwing out comments who have never actually held a piece in their hand. Um this is these are people that are these are engaged in a real real way. Um so I really just encourage people to go. Um be part of the community in a human way. And uh and I think we one thing I've learned over the last few months is you know it's it's not just about watches, it's about people and and I I dearly miss seeing everyone in person and uh and and I think when we can come together, we have to we just can't take that for granted anymore. And uh and I hope that people come to exhibitions to um to engage in these dialogues. This is what makes it fun for all of us |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . Yeah, I I totally agree. I mean I love going, you know, I obviously go to Switzerland quite a bit, as as do you. Um and some trips are are more exciting and more fun than others, but uh the auction seasons in Geneva in in November and May, that weekend, when all the auctions are happening and all the collectors are around, it's the best. You can't walk, I mean, literally, you can't walk 10 feet in central Geneva without running into someone you know or someone you've heard about or somebody you follow on Instagram. And you just learn so much from all the chatter that happens even outside the previews. Like I love, you know, on an auction day going to La Reserve or to the Four Seasons or whatever, the Beau Revage, and going and just like having a coffee or a drink in the lobby for an hour or two before the sale starts and just the things you overhear and the people you run into, you find out who's bidding on what, all of this stuff. And like you can't do that by following the sale online. That just doesn't happen. And it we |
| John Reardon | 're so I one thing I've learned over as I mentioned over the last few months, I've been um active with with all the auction houses as a buyer and in one case as as a seller. And uh for those who might say, hey, I live in the middle midwest and I'm unable to go to Geneva. Um or for I mean just because of travel restrictions, you name it, you can still be engaged with the community and learn from the uh the the watch auctions in a way that's most most importantly, it's free. Uh it's it's enjoyable. And all the catalogs are are online today, which is just uh fantastic. And if there's one thing I learned from the um the level of engagement I had with the various specialists in uh in in my auction experience this last season is that if you get people early enough, right when the catalog comes off comes out, you can have those long, interesting conversations. Just don't wait until the day before. Um I mean yeah from my auction career I could tell you everybody wants to talk the day before the sale. And you can't, you just you literally as a specialist, as the gatekeeper, you don't have time to talk for an hour or two about an escape. You just don't because there's that transactional element. So um I always encourage try to get people in the the the off season or early on when the catalogs go out because that's that's when you're gonna learn so much and and people are willing to share information and uh it's just uh oh it's a lot of fun. But they're there are auction, even like look at Jones and Haran in New Hampshire, for example. I love following their auctions. And and George George and Patty run such a nice show up there, and you you could buy something for $500, $50,000, everywhere in between. Heck, even a couple hundred dollars, I've had some luck buying some things at auction there. So you don't it doesn't have to be uh Phillips Christie Sotheby's it could be is a a lot of space in between two |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . That's that's that's a great thing to remember. That's that's really really good advice. You know we we could we could talk I think for probably multiple hours about your time at at Sutheby's and Christie's and and go through all of it, but I want to make sure we get to some other things. So to kind of wrap wrap up the auction portion of this, you know, you you talked about how how great it is that the catalogs for all the sales are online now. And I I think that's 100% true. And we've seen, you know, with the auctions that just happened during COVID, uh, the fact that these sales could take place online and have positive results is is amazing, but it's also opened up the auction world to some competitors and some other forces, things like eBay, things like Chrono 24. How how have you seen those sorts of platforms kind of reshape the the vintage market and the secondary market for for watches |
| John Reardon | it's wow I'm I'm really coming to grips with my own feelings and how would you say um my own way of analyzing what's happening on the market today and how things are changing. I do believe the auction the auction world the auction life that we were just describing that that we all knew is dead. Things will never be the same. Um it's uh a classic case of a punctuated change forced upon us from unexpected surprises due to the pandemic. The human element will probably be different moving forward, but it's talking specifically now about the marketplace, the inefficiencies of the traditional watch auctions, which are have been exposed over the last 20 years thanks to uh digital media. Um I mean Hodinki has has been a real driver in telling the real story behind watches that have shown up at auction, both the good and the bad. Lots of great controversy over the years. Thank you. Every comment that people wrote. Because you really you're trying to manage the unmanageable of how people's emotional response to an auction might be. I think all of this is shown, this punctuated change has shown that auctions are going to change because this the gatekeepers of the the the perceived walls of getting into an auction and bidding and competing are now um falling or they've fallen completely. The fact that auction houses who very heavily invest in their staff's travel um salaries, uh I mean huge amounts of money are spent to uh put on the show. All of a sudden it doesn't make sense for uh a more day let's say more of a commodity watch. It makes sense for Paul Newman, Paul Newman all day long. It doesn't make sense for uh a reference 500,4, I mean something that's we know what it's worth. This is what it's worth yesterday. If the market moves a little, that's fine. This is what it could be worth tomorrow. So all of a sudden that spread of twenty-five to thirty-five percent that the auction houses are making is I'd say the people have spoken. It's unacceptable and uh and and the word is out there. Um for the best of the best trophy pieces, yes, auction will continue and we're gonna see exciting new records breaking. Um but for uh more of the commodity-based watches um it's the the market has to change and uh in that we are seeing it happen right before our our own eyes right now. So uh we're all have to stay tuned and watch this uh this change that's occurring. So in short, the new platforms, well they're not new anymore. I mean eBay is certainly not new. Yeah. Um eBay has its pluses and minuses. Um there are so many fakes on eBay on any given day, it just makes me cringe. Yet I still sometimes buy something from eBay. You could find some really interesting things. But it's let the buyer beware because it is, it seems to me it's a customer-to-customer market and uh and they're there sharks circling everywhere. Chrono 24, which um which I've started listing on, um I have to say it's an surprisingly robust platform that uh I I think they police a bit more. Um I'm still it's a bit upsetting you still see fakes on uh Chrono 24. Um and uh that I think there's they're working on it, improving, kind of wiping off the stuff that shouldn't be on there, but there are a lot of great pieces too and it's uh it's a great lead indicator. Um but you see new companies, watchfinder, watchbox, um, that are really trying to redefine what this will be in the future. Um what people want at the end of the day is to buy from a credible source. They want to call someone up who knows what they're talking about, will stand behind it and do the right thing. Um the auction houses are so big and so bureaucratic right now, that often um even if the specialist wants to do the right thing, they might not be allowed to because they have to go through four different bureaucratic channels to get a yes or a no. But uh and this is where I think dealers fit in. This is why I'm a dealer now. You're literally putting your name, your expertise, your knowledge, your connections out there. That's what you're selling at the end of the day. But you're also assuming all of the uh risk and responsibility of standing behind everything that you sell. And many of the best and most successful dealers out there do this on a daily basis. And uh they're they're driven by passion. They're driven by um the the human connection and trust that they have with their collectors. And uh and in a way I'm seeing kind of this the rise of the quote like the micro specialist um where not even okay if you want to you ask me who a vintage rolex expert is okay a couple people come to mind but then when you kind of drill in deeper into what reference more people come into mind of individuals that might know that best that watch better than anyone else in the world. Like this is this is only for Eric Ku to answer. Same things with with same thing with Patek Philippe. Depending on what you're looking for, uh, I would refer different people to based on different references. There are certain individuals out there that just really know everything about a specific reference, and that's what makes it so much fun? Where the idea of it when I started in this industry, you were a watch specialist, which by the way, you're responsible for all watches and all clocks and being an expert over uh 500 years of horology. I mean that that generalist idea is kind of gone by the wayside. And also about Moom on a Daytona. They don't they don't exist anymore. |
| Stephen Pulvirent | So Yeah. Um your your specialty, you know, your your platform, just so we get this out there, your platform is is collectability. And you launched this last year. Uh and and you're really an expert in I would say vintage Patek Philippe. Is that |
| John Reardon | is that a fair way to characterize that? Yes. So my the vision of collectibility is to offer people an education and vintage patecphilippe, which incredibly hasn't been done in a robust way on on any platform uh around around the world. Auctions have done an amazing job traditionally. What Patek Philippe does is incredible. But uh there's no there's no centralized place to really learn, study and transact with vintage Patech Philippe and that's what uh collectibility is all about. I mean it's no coincidence. It's what I know best, it's what I I love. mean, it's not work for me. This is just such uh such a pleasure to focus on what I'm most interested in. Um surprisingly, it's you you go down many different rabbit holes and the my company's only now uh seven or eight months old. And uh I've had so many adventures. I I think uh I knew I worked hard in the past, but I've never worked harder running mode company. It is absolutely 24-7. And uh and and I'm not complaining because it is incredible learning experience of just like the nuts and bolts of running a company. Um but in from a watch perspective that's where I'm having so much fun. I've started um of course my Instagram um collectability LLC continues to grow. I've started a YouTube channel, which um right now is a few minutes ago, a uh a video just came out which might be a bit controversial, but we'll have a little fun with that. Um we'll make sure to link that up in the uh show notes so that people can go watch it. Uh that that's going to um uh uh wrestle up a few comments, no doubt. So I think the um using these different forms of media to educate, inform, bring awareness. I'm finding people are like, well, I never knew I wanted that. I never knew it existed. And uh wow, it's not even that expensive. I I need to have one of those pieces. And uh my my primary focus is um pocket watches and wristwatches from like the golden era, like the 1930s through the 1960s. Um but I have done a lot with 19th century pocket watches. Um and I'm not I don't want to get into the modern market. I think it's very crowded right now, and it is commodity trading. Um, but many collectors want to trade modern paddocks towards vintage. So um I do take some uh modern pieces in in stock too, which is uh which is incredible. I mean the fact that I that I bought uh a 5711 line 1A is just blows my mind. I it's just like that's like that's like against the grain of what I want to be doing. But you look transactionally sometimes people don't want they want to move this, they wanna have this and you end up with watches that are just um surprising. So for the modern pieces, I just want I just want to move them out quickly. Um the vintage pieces where I want to spend my time focus and really create a product um that doesn't exist today in the world where someone can walk away with a watch and literally know everything about it. |
| Stephen Pulvirent | Yeah. And like you said, I mean the the interesting thing about what you're doing, right, is you're you're also you're creating demand and you're also creating a community of people who understand it, right? Like it's it's all good and well for one collector or a collector and a dealer or two or three collectors to understand a particular reference. But like if you really want there to be a market for it and a community of people around it, you you need a way for other people to learn about it. Yes. And I think that's one of the cool things with what you're doing is that it's it's a place that it can be a place to educate yourself. It can be a place to shop. It can be a place to find out more so that you then know what you want to buy. It's kind of like multifaceted and people can kind of get out of it what they what they want, whether they're ultimately purchasing a watch from you or not. I think you're you're you know, educating the community in a in a uh altruistic way, but also like you're you're making sure that there is a market for these things in the future. That' |
| John Reardon | s true. It's there there are trends in place everyone always asks like, all right, what's next in the watch world? What should I be looking at? And I'm always feeling out people if they're a collector type or investment type, trying to figure out where they're trying to go. And often I give two different answers. Um, if they're investing, I'll say, all right, let's go down this road. No promises, past performances, no indication of the future. But if you're a collector type, I'm gonna take you down a different road. And some people are more technical collectors and some people are more aesthetic collectors, but the same rules apply. I mean, it's it's really it's about condition. And and that's where spending a lot of time explaining condition, showing condition, and so people understand what they're buying. Um, there's no there's no secret, there's a lot of garbage out there on the market. Um, there are pieces that you could just cringe and just just just looking at, but if you're new to the market, you might not know what to even ask. And uh and those those are the dialogues I'm trying to create. And through the YouTube channel has been a a surprise um in that the engagement is very high and people really um they like to see watches discuss pieces and uh and and the comments that I have offline um are as valuable as the ones online. The really interesting conversations. So um that's awesome. Stay tuned |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . Well, I mean you you kind of preempted me here, but I I wanted to to finish up. You know, we again I I mentioned it earlier, but like we could spend hours and hours talking about Sotheby's and Christie's and your time at Patek. I mean we, haven't even talked about that. Is is the fact that you worked for a decade, you know? Like we we've we've skipped a whole chapter in your career here. Uh we skip the fact that you've literally written the books plural on Patek Philippe. So so there's there's way more than we could possibly cover in in our our short chat here. But uh I wanted to get some some actionable advice for people. Um So you you mentioned that there are different kinds of collectors and you give different advice to different sorts of collectors. So so I'll ask, you know, for for let's say maybe the the aesthetic collector, the technical collector, and the investing collector, what do you think are the the areas that each of those people should be looking at right now? And it doesn't have to be Patek, it can be, but but what what do you think each of those categories should be paying attention to right now. |
| John Reardon | And I'm only going to answer these within the world of Petecalib. There are of course a million alternatives at price points that are much lower and some cases higher. So um but I'll stay within my wheelhouse for aesthetic opportunities. I mean I I look at Rani Bedvani as one of the greatest aesthetic collectors in the world. And he was so far ahead of everyone else, everyone else. And the way that he looks at these as an art form and the way he presents them on Instagram is unsurpassed. Um, so using that type of mindset, looking at some of the Markowski cases with 990 calibers um from the the the 30s through the 50s. And and I see some collectors starting to buy these shaped and formed watches, you know, the famous Hourglass, the banana, the Marilyn Monroe, they all have great, great nicknames. Um these are incredibly good value today. They've they're they're very soft uh on the market, uh in particular anything that rectang rectangular form watches. So for an aesthetic collector that likes history and likes design, those those are quite quite interesting. Um for the technical collector, um Um my of course the 3417 comes to mind first. I think the the whole rise of the the amagnetic collecting circles is just at the beginning as people learn and understand these pieces more that yes, but techlip did make tool watches and they functioned and they were brilliant and they're beautiful and they're understated and they're often white metal and I mean it has all the right ingredients. Um so I think I'm seeing some Rolex high-end Rolex collectors crossing over into some of the uh the protect for the tool watches, we'll call them. So that's um that's starting to begin. Um for the investment collector, this is tough because who knows right uh I really look at supply and demand and uh condition can help dictate the supply very very very quickly um and that's why I quickly conclude pocket watches are one of the best places to buy pieces today. Here's the reason people aren't refinishing dolls on pocket watches like they have with wristwatches. Sometimes 'cause the fact they've been sitting in a box for a hundred years and they haven't seen the light of day, we don't have the problems that we see with wristwatches. The the moisture and shock problems that we see with wristwatches all the time don't exist with uh with pocket watches in most cases. You take enamel dial pocket watches, all right, it's pretty simple. They've been cracked or they haven't. It's it's there and you could find a restoration quite quite easily. Um so finding uh a beautiful gondolo pocket watch with no hairline cracks to me for under $10,000, even much less, is just a no-brainer to buy. And and that's where I think the aesthetic collector, the technical collector, and the investor all come together. And people, they're all they're not just defined as one. It's sometimes a mix and just try to feel out what they're they're looking for. But with the way we see gold prices approaching two thousand dollars an ounce, that just that just blows my mind. Um that I think there are pocket watches in the market selling for under their gold value today. Um there's that slight disconnect. Um and then it it's looking at platinum prices, I just I don't understand that how that could be half of gold right now. That I I can't we're being an a expedic guy, seeing uh platinum at fifty percent or less than fifty percent of the value of gold makes no sense to me. But I need I need I need someone who's an expert in that circle to hel |
| Stephen Pulvirent | p me out. People if if anybody wants to help out, comment on the story on Hodiki dot com or hit us up on Instagram and we'll uh we'll connect you. Uh we'll we'll we'll find uh find a solution to this |
| John Reardon | . more valuable than gold. Yeah. That's uh platinum. And it's just completely confusing. Yeah. And the rules in watch collecting don't apply. I mean it's uh all we have to do is talk about the Nautilus and and and seems like case metal makes no sense. Yeah, |
| Stephen Pulvirent | so th the last thing I want to ask you about is maybe the the exact opposite of the Nautilus, uh, which is you have kind of led a revival of one of the most underappreciated watches. You've you've kind of become Mr. Ellipse uh over over the last couple of years. What is it about this watch? I mean I I happen to personally like the ellipse. Uh I know a lot of people who really don't and most people |
| John Reardon | To be known as Mr. Ellipse. When I was working at Patek Philippe, um, and I still think it's true today, less than one percent of the entire modern production is the ellipse line. Um it uh it was very very difficult to sell and when I was at uh uh at Henry Stern Paddock USA it was my job to sell pieces so if an ellipse comes in as the distributor you need to have a retailer take the ellipse and and of ultimately sell it to an end consumer it was not easy to do it was brutal and uh there there were um there were times where I just I just wanted to give up because the ellipse watches were just sitting in the drawers and and and not smelling. And I dug deep to understand why the ellipse is interesting historically. All right. Designed in late 1960s. It was the first Patek Philippe that had a true family or line built around it. You see like the lighters, the cufflinks, the tie clips, uh the list goes So Patek clip really used it as a template to build out their name in the post-Qourz Revolution era. So that was interesting to me. Um, but I do like many, yeah, I looked at it as kind of dated and and difficult to sell. So when I started collectability, I uh I was trying to look at like what's a watch that you could educate people about and what could be like the next thing? Because everyone was and we still are talking about the Nautilus. So it's a bit tongue in cheek. I was like, all right, I'm gonna I'm gonna have a bunch of hats made up and put it on the lip right on the forehead, really big. Um I did for the first watches I sold these beautiful keychains, these ellipse keychains that would come like as a gift with purchase. And I was buying and selling ellipses because you could buy them for very reasonable amounts of money. And I have to say, okay, it might have started off as kind of a joke. I truly did fall in love with it. I find that it is one of the few watch designs that is uniquely identifiable as only Patek Fulub. You could take the Nautilus and then play with the Royal Oak. You could take almost any other reference within the line, even like you take a beautiful 570, it could it could look like uh uh frankly an IWC from from the same time period but an ellipse is an ellipse uh it was only Otomar Paget that was kind of playing with that and and to a bit Cartier too. So I've been I've been running with it ever since. And uh it's uh I think the culmination of it is I I just I just got my copy of the paddock magazine. Okay. Uh and you I have the last page of every paddock magazine now for the last eight years. I have a a collector's guide column more or less. And you can see there we a 3605 Olives. There we go. So beautiful yellow gold blue dial. Yeah. So I probably just completely ruined the market. Um I have no ellipses left to sell. There we go. It's uh um I I I I really I respect the reference. It it is it is what it is. I think every paddock collector needs to have one. Um just because it is part of the historical DNA of the company. But um I don't I don't think we're gonna see uh ellipse prices double overnight. That's that's not gonna happen. All right. Good. I'm glad we |
| Stephen Pulvirent | we set the record straight there. Not until you wear one, Stephen. If you wear one, I'm not sure. I I might I might have to give one a go. We'll we'll uh we'll see what happens there. But uh thanks so much for doing this. This is is really great. Uh great I wish we could chat longer. Uh, you know, we'll we'll have to when this is all over grab a coffee and uh catch up for real. Look forward to it. Thanks for your time. Awesome. Thanks so much, John. |