Phil Toledano And Big Baselworld News¶
Published on Mon, 2 Mar 2020 11:00:09 +0000
From funky quartz Pateks to egocentric video art, we cover it all.
Synopsis¶
This episode of Hodinkee Radio begins with hosts Stephen Pulvirent, John Brayshaw, and Jack Forster discussing the major news that both Watches and Wonders Geneva and Baselworld 2020 have been canceled due to the COVID-19 pandemic. This marks the first time since 1917 that the Basel show has been canceled, making it through both world wars and previous disease outbreaks. The team discusses the implications for the watch industry, from the impact on retailers and brand communications to the cultural loss of the annual gathering where the entire watch community comes together. They reflect on what they'll miss most about the shows - from discovering new independent watchmakers to the simple pleasures like their favorite shawarma spot - while considering how brands might adapt with local market events and direct consumer engagement.
The second half features a conversation with artist and photographer Phil Toledano, known for his 2016 Talking Watches episode. Phil discusses his evolution as a collector, moving from chunky sport watches like Breitling Navarimers and Seiko Giugiaro chronographs to more refined pieces like 1970s Patek Philippe integrated bracelet watches and pre-Daytona Rolex chronographs. A self-described "pathological contrarian," Phil champions overlooked and unconventional pieces, whether in watches, cars, or art. He explains his collecting philosophy of seeking beauty in dusty corners that others ignore, preferring watches that reflect personal taste rather than Instagram trends. The conversation explores how his artistic practice - creating conceptual art projects that examine history, politics, and culture - influences his approach to collecting, always searching for the surprising, the forgotten, and the beautifully ugly.
Links¶
Transcript¶
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| Unknown | I'm just interested in the corners, the little dusty corners that people aren't really paying attention to. That's the most interesting stuff to me. I mean that that's the point of art. And actually in some ways, that's the point of collecting. Like there's nothing that makes me more excited than being surprised whether it's looking at art or looking at someone's watches or their car to go oh shit that's so fascinating I haven't seen that befor |
| Unknown | e Hey everybody, I'm your host Stephen Pullman and this is Hodinky Radio. We had a show all mapped out for you, but then at the end of last week on Thursday and Friday mornings, we woke up to some pretty crazy news. Um, both the Watches and Wonders and Basel World shows for 2020 have been canceled. That means there's gonna be no major watch trade shows this year, as far as we can tell. So I grabbed John and Jack, both of whom have been going to these shows for years, and we sat down in the studio as the news was breaking about Basel World to discuss what's happening, what it means for the industry, and sort of what it means to us personally to not be attending the shows. I learned a ton from these guys, especially as the situation is still evolving, and I think you're really gonna like the conversation. After that, we've got my chat with artist and photographer Phil Toledano. You might remember Phil from his 2016 episode of Talking Watches. It was the one with the bright red BMW in the background and a whole bunch of funky brightling Seiko chronographs. Uh Phil is a consummate collector. His taste is always evolving. He's always looking for that next interesting, underappreciated thing. Sometimes to the point where even when he appreciates it, nobody else does. But that's kind of what makes him so interesting and so special. There's always a why to the what, and he's really easily able to articulate what he finds so captivating and fascinating. We also talk about how his life as a collector impacts his practice as an artist. I've had a million conversations with Phil, but this is easily one of the more interesting ones. So uh sit back, relax, and enjoy the show. Let's do this. Hey guys, how you guys doing? Friday morning. Doing good. Doing well. There's uh it's a busy morning uh here at uh Hodniki HQ, isn't it yeah we woke up to some news, didn't we? Uh we did. Uh we are recording this Friday morning. You're hearing this Monday morning uh at the earliest. Uh we woke up this morning to the news that Basel World is quote un |
| Unknown | quote postponed. I mean, um one man's postponement is another man's cancellation, I think. Uh yeah I think that's fair. I would tend to agree. Yeah. I mean push push to January uh twenty twenty one sounds like a uh a cancellation and rescheduling to me. But you know, the the the term doesn't uh doesn't doesn't change the facts. It's uh there's no Basel World this year |
| Unknown | . Yeah, which is pretty wild. Uh I mean we had Joe on the show uh a couple weeks ago to talk about the sort of like sales impacts that coronavirus is already having uh most mostly in Asia, uh specifically in China, where stores aren't open, nobody's out in public. Um it's it's selling anything at this point is is kind of tough. But this is a whole other order of magnitude. Like this is really affecting the sort of like behind the scenes backend business, the sort of PR and media reception of these products. This is this is a wild thing |
| Unknown | . Yeah, I mean um you know I started writing about watches when the primary means of commitment you know and so did you, John when the primary means of commu communicating about them was uh you know still still print, at least as far as the industry was concerned. And um this is gonna really, really I think force uh the industry to kind of reevaluate its communications practices as well as its relationships with its retailers. I mean my understanding is that retailers would still vastly prefer um to see products in person before placing orders, which I I completely get. Yeah. Um you know, because they're basically you know, you're you're basically buying these things in order to sell them again and like anyone else who's actually buying something it's always nicer to sort of see it in person |
| Unknown | . Yeah. I mean we'll see how uh we'll see how the brands you know do selling their product. I think if they I mean it's it's no secret that the trade shows are hugely expensive. And I think they'll maybe they'll look at their their bottom lines at the end of this year and they'll have to determine whether or not uh the financial outlay of a trade show um is worth it. And that that' |
| Unknown | s and that decision making is going to you know to your point, John, this dis decis thation making is going to happen against the background of what will almost certainly be a terrible year for the luxury industry in general. Uh and luxury watches of course are gonna be affected. Um I was in Paris very, very briefly last week, you know, just for a couple of days. But you know, you walk down the Rue Saint Honore and uh through the Place Vendome and I mean, you know, those stores are empty. Really? Yeah. You know, so and then and the questi I mean with the with the trade shows, the question to me is always, you know, to what extent does this really affect the consumer experience? Um you know, is it gonna make any difference to the way people sort of like consume watches and I don't know that the trade shows necessarily are, but certainly, you know, the um COVID nineteen, you know, as we're now calling the the actual disease. I think that's definitely throwing a scare in people and it's gonna affect people's buying hab |
| Unknown | its. I don't think the show itself will affect people, like the absence of a show, but I think there will be knock on effects. Like, you know, we already see huge wait lists for the most popular watches. Um, you know, big complications, new no new things uh often are being announced, you know, previously it was in January for SIHH and sort of March, April for Basel World. And even then, like some brands struggled to deliver quantities of products by holiday by November, December. And like we were already worried about what that was gonna mean with the shows happening in April, uh April May. I wonder if this delays anything additionally, if it delays buying from retailers, it'll then delay production and if it delays production, like this this could be a case where like, okay, so and so comes out with a hot new watch, uh, they announce it in the middle of May, and it's like February 2021 before anybody can buy it. And that that I think will affect consumers and I think it'll affect retailers. I think it'll affect the diversity of kind of like what's avail |
| Unknown | able in in the marketplace. Well we'll see though, you know, I mean I'm sure that there were brands that are that uh were would probably be ready to show product as early as uh you know early next month. Yeah. For sure. And they would have been holding, you know, for for Basel World. Now that Basel World has been delayed or or canceled, however you want to look at it, uh, you know, their timelines are now up to them. Yeah. It'll be interesting |
| Unknown | to see whether brands within giving groups um choose to kind of like fake a trade show by, you know, having you know, media events and buyer events and still kind of like doing everything together or whether they'll start to like, you know, piece things out and and kind of like space it out to try to kind of diffuse the huge onslaught of product that people get flooded with. You know what occurs to me sorry, sorry not |
| Unknown | to interrupt uh Stephen, but it just occurred to me that this if the if as it now seems there will be local market events in lieu of the trade shows, uh this kind of provides an opportunity for the brands to reach out directly to consumers in individual markets, which is not an opportunity that they have at the trade shows. So, you know, I mean um if you know I mean uh you know pick a pick a major watch brand but if they uh if they bring stuff to the US market um for for both uh press and um you know and and for uh consumers to see um that might actually give them a more direct line to the people who make buying decisions |
| Unknown | . You're absolutely right. The the kind of collector or enthusiast who would buy a plane ticket and go to Basel World is vastly different from the kind of guy who might casually want to go see some watches on a weekend here in New York if if the opportunity |
| Unknown | . you know, Miami or whatever to come to New York instead of going to Basel, Switzerland. You know, also the you know, this is this is maybe a little inside baseball for people, but like the infrastructure of Basel, Switzerland is not really set up to accommodate something like this. Uh like you know, peop people may think we're you know dining on caviar and staying in five star hotels all the time. It may look that way sometimes, but like, you know, in Basel World we're often sleeping five or six of us to an apartment that we've rented from some like sketchy person who hands us the key as they like scuttle off into the shadows. And like it is the reality the reality of Basel World is uh ten doll ten dollar uh sa |
| Unknown | usages and uh Airbnbs. Yeah, exactly. |
| Unknown | And there's a paucity of hotel rooms. For years people have slept, you know, uh uh in uh hotel uh cruise ships that are docked on the Ryan River. Exactly. The city really has to gear up |
| Unknown | to host a trade show of the size of Basel World. In a way that a place like New York or LA would not have to or Miami. I mean, you know, there there are big cities where if you're doing quote unquote local market events, right, that like collectors could ostensibly have much more affordable and just like low friction ways. Like if I if I were just a consumer, even if I had the money to go to Basel, it's like going to Basel is a pain. Like you fly into Zurich, you then have to take a train or car. There aren't really, like Jack said, there aren't really great hotel rooms. It's like it's just a giant pain. And if I'm a collector, like I don't necessarily want to put up with that. Whereas if you know my favorite brand calls me and says, like, hey, we're gonna be posted up at this really beautiful hotel in New York City, uh, you wanna come see some new watches? It's like, yeah, I'll take a weekend in New York, I'll go do that. Like it it could be fun. Um and like you stay at a cool place, you go see a concert, you go eat at a fun restaurant, you're not eating, you know, the famous ten dollar sausages on the sidewalk of uh I mean it's a decent sausage. It is the the guy is so this is this is we'll we'll give people a a further peep by immigrant there there is a guy who sets up literally it's like a sausage cart on the sidewalk outside of Basel World and I one time uh he literally looked at me and laughed and said, It's so easy to make money. Yeah. It's one of my favorite Basel World memories. He might be a millionaire just from like selling sausage. For sure. I'm concerned about that guy. Yeah, he's a good thing to impact him. That's true. Should we get his take on this? Get him on the pod. We buried two leads here. Uh one is that this is the first time the Basel show has been canceled going back to its current incarnation in 1917. Yeah. It made it through a world war. Yes. It made it through other wars. It made it through multiple disease outbreaks. Like, this is a big deal. I mean, this is why they're saying I think it's like quote unquote postponed, like the puzzle show has never been canceled, which is a very Swiss way to approach this. But um it's this is a big deal. I mean, we we really have spent a lot of time and energy here in in Hodinky HQ kind of debating this amongst ourselves. And even yesterday when I left, like I kinda had this idea that it's like they have to. Like we have to wake up to a press release tomorrow morning or do we? Like it's still it's still a positive world. Like there's a chance they could just be like, ah, |
| Unknown | screw it. We're going ahead. I mean it is amazing to reflect that the show, except for this year, has run continuously since 1970. I'm amazed that they made it through the second world war, to be honest. Agreed. Dude, the Olympics didn't make it |
| Unknown | through World War Two. You know? Like that's a wild thing. Um the other lead we buried here quickly is that Basel World is not the only show that was cancelled this week. So it was canceled this morning, yesterday, um Watches and Wonders Geneva, which is the new incarnation of SIHH, uh was also canceled. And that was outright canceled, not postponed. That will pick back up next year. Uh the current plan uh was or I guess not the current, the past plan was for 2021 to be in Miami instead of Geneva. Um as you know uh the FHH kind of rethinks what Watches and Wonders is. Um it'll be curious to see whether they go ahead in Miami or whether it swings back to Geneva or whether they do both. I I have no idea there. But yeah, so both shows now have been cancelled this week |
| Unknown | . |
| Unknown | Geneva Auto Show, the SWAT Group uh Time to Move event uh which was supposed to be held I guess the week you're listening to this. Um you know it was supposed to be held the first week in March. Um that was canceled a few weeks ago. The Grand Seiko summit was canceled and moved to a local New York event. So |
| Unknown | I don't think we mentioned this yet, but uh there was there was actually a decision taken by the Swiss federal government uh that gatherings of more than one thousand people in a single place are um uh verboten until uh well the deadline that that's supposed to uh um run until march fifteenth um but you know obviously they can they can extend it if they need to yeah so |
| Unknown | it's an interesting thing I mean it's it's all of this is happening also against the backdrop of these things being in flux, right? Like if if it were a normal year and it was just like business as usual, SIHH in January, Basel World in March, April, like, oh, everything, whatever, oh, they're cancelled, no big deal, we'll figure out alternative plants, whatever. But this is all happening after years of people backing out of both shows. I mean, we talk about Basel World and the departure of Swatch Group, departure of Seiko, uh, and Grand Seiko. Um we talk about that a lot. Citizen. Um we talk about that a lot, but what we don't talk about is the fact that like Ottomar P. Gay and Richard Meal have both left Watches and Wonders, um Nay Nay S-I-H-H |
| Unknown | . Um Brightling is out of Basel World. Brightling, you're right out of Basel World. But by the way, speaking of Brightling, um I'm curious what you guys think. Like does it does this does this present an advantage for brands? Let's Brightling, for instance, was already off the trade show treadmill. Um And are brands like uh Brightling and Odmar Piget, which do not now peg their product releases or communications to the trade show calendar, are they in a are they in a sort of an advantageous position relative to brands who don't |
| Unknown | ? I would say in a certain way, I would say I think that is largely mitigated by the fact that those brands do huge business in Asia, which is problematic. Um I've talked to a couple brand executives at other brands, uh global CEOs, global CMOs, guys you know based in in the Valley based in Geneva. And they're all telling me that like their groups andor private companies um have all banned travel to Asia. So it's at this point your Chinese clients aren't seeing anything up close, your Hong Kong clients, Taiwan, Korea, um, Japan. So it's these are huge markets. And and I I don't know the numbers for Brightling in particular. I do know that Japan is a huge market for them. Um I would imagine China is a huge market for them. It's a huge market for everyone. Um |
| Unknown | From what I understand, they don't have a ton of ex Brightling uh specifically doesn't have a ton of exposure to China |
| Unknown | . I think some of the trade show stuff will be mitigated just by like where people's business is. I think that will probably be the bigger thing. Like if you think about, you know, I won't name names here since we're calling out who's in a tough spot, but like if you think about certain brands that specialise in more like jewelry watches, um, more like thin watches, precious metals, um, those tend to be the categories that succeed in in China and not in the West, uh not in Europe, not in the US um some of these brands have have over 50% of their gro of their gross revenues are are in China and like you know Joe talked about Bulgarie for example we can name a name there like they have fifty nine I think was the number fifty nine boutiques in China and they're all essentially closed. So it's like it doesn't matter what you're selling, it doesn't matter what the product is. If you have that kind of exposure in a market and you rely that heavily on a market market and that is effectively just like on hold temporarily, that feels that feels dangero |
| Unknown | us. Yeah, you know, it it's interesting. If you look at the um uh you look at the distribution of coronavirus cases, um new diagnoses, uh people who've recovered. Um you know, China is still obviously um leading the rest of the world, you know, dramatically, very, very dramatically, but the number of new diagnoses there seems to be leveling off. If you look at the curve for um new diagnoses elsewhere in the world and it's start it's it's uh it it it has been pretty flat for the la for the last two months but it's it's starting to climb and climb noticeably. Um so you know we we we're looking at a situation potentially where this is no longer just a um you know problem with selling in China. It could be it's could could easily be a problem uh you know selling everywhere. And if the global mood is down, the start the you know the stock market is already showing you know tremendous sensitivity to you know to this evolving and unpredictable situation. Um you know it's not gonna I just don't feel like it's gonna be a great year no matter where you are. Yeah you're right. I mean there's the C D C |
| Unknown | recently didn't they recently say that it it was not a matter of if but when here in the United States this would become an issue And there's this first case where they cannot trace it back to anyone who's traveled uh to China. So that's that that could be a community spread. So we'll I think we'll we'll probably have a better sense for how this is gonna look in this country in the next uh few days to to week or so. |
| Unknown | Yeah, no it's true. It's it's it's interesting. I mean we uh the cancellation of the trade shows is one thing, the sales are another thing. But like you said, you guys have both said, like the mood is is another thing. Like people generally when, you know, there's a global pandemic aren't buying toys. Like they're not buying lux luxury goods. Um but I I think, you know, just to to circle back to the actual trade show angle for a minute, I I do think it is interesting and I do think you're right, Jack. I think there will be certain brands who kinda like rise above, you know, who who see this and seize an opportunity to do something different, to try something, to experiment, to maybe try to engage with end consumers, to engage with media in a different way, to uh bring something new to the experience for their buyers. Um and I think those brands will kind of set themselves apart. So whether it's folks like Brightling who are like you said already off the trade show uh schedule, or whether, you know, it's I don't know, is it somebody like IWC, is it somebody like Tudor? Is it somebody like Cartier? Is it somebody like Chopar? Like I I don't know. It could be anybody. But I think there will be a handful of brands who kind of like figure out a new model and then run with it. |
| Unknown | There was a a a kind of hilarious uh comment um you know this morning apropos the uh the the whole trade show situation. Uh um someone someone uh someone commented um uh I hear that a lot of uh people uh who go to Basel World still wish that the show were happening. And uh somebody replied, yes, uh uh a a significant majority of uh boondoggle participants uh enjoy the boondoggle. Yes. I mean it's true. Uh which was harsh. Yeah, but it's it's also true. Um The thing is I wouldn't necessarily I mean it was a f it's it was a a funny thing to say and w th there's also a grain of truth in it, but you know, there's a part of me that really does feel like um having something that happens once a year where the entire Swiss watch industry gets together, presents a united front of the world and says, this is a unique piece of Swiss national and cultural heritage and we are proud of it and we're all proud of it together. I don't think that's a terrible thing. No, it's a great thing |
| Unknown | . Yeah. I mean I I bitch and moan about Basel World all the time. Like, you know, as as somebody on the editorial side of things and somebody who's who's job here and job specifically when we were at the trade shows it is sort of like wrangle and coordinate everything. Like it's a a nightmare would be an overstatement, but it's it's tough and it's it's, you know, five, six days of not really sleeping and not eating properly, and you're on your feet all day, you're running around. You know, we have uh we're very lucky, we have a big team, but that means more things to coordinate. Um and it's it's a trying week and a stressful week, and I'm very happy at the end of it to like take a nap and eat a salad and like you know, not talk to anybody for a couple hours. But um it's so fun, and it's like and it's such a big part of the experience of being in the watch industry, and I mean my first Basel World was not all that long ago, it was 2013, was my first Basel World. Um, and at the time it was it was everybody, and at the time, SIHH was much tighter. It was there was no uh independence hall, so it was it was essentially Richemont plus AP Group4Z and Richard Meal. Like that was it? Parmigiani. Parmigiani, like there was no Hermes, there was no um MBNF, there was no Moser, there was no Gromfeld, like that was all not there, Lauren Ferry, that was not there. So those guys were all at at Basel World. And so it was it was really I think the first year I went with Ben went with Ben and Will and Blake Bettner who wrote for us at the time. Um and I think the four of us were there six nights, you know, because we had to to cram all the appointments in because we couldn't do what you know we're very lucky to do now where we can take two or three at once, just divide and conquer |
| Unknown | . Um Yeah, it's funny. On the one hand nobody loves trade shows. On the other hand, uh you know it's it was kind of like summer camp for the uh for the watch industry. You know, you'd see people that uh you know you only see once a year. You see folks at the trade show that you only see once a year, you know, you see other watch journalists and you get a chance to sort of um you know, take peop take the temperature of the industry and uh you know, hear from other people in a way that you don't for the rest of the year. Totally. And um, you know, it was a great place to get information. It was a great place to, you know, learn things um, you know, from other people who'd you know who've been around forever and have interesting perspectives. And I mean, you know, it's uh it's it's it's that I'm gonna miss that, honestly. Ye |
| Unknown | ah. I mean there's always like those fun interactions that could only happen at Basel World where like you run into Philippe Dufour outside of one of the big brand's booths and he's just like talking shit about how they don't know watchmaking or like you know or or the opposite. You like you see Philippe Dufour coming out of one of the independents and you're like, oh that's the next big thing. Like I I need to go see that guy immediately, you know? Or you run into like you said, Jack, like some executive or some designer or some collector who you this is your only chance to see them and you get to see them in the hotbed, you get to hear their reactions to things, you know. Again, I remember in the early days, like this was how I learned what the hell I was doing was by going to a place like this and just like immersing myself in it for a week and you know running into at the time the three of us were all working at different places, but like running into you guys in the middle of hall one and doing the classic like, have you seen Tag yet? Have you seen Paddock yet? What do you think about this? What do you think about that? And like I do think there's something lost in the sort of like culture of watches if we lose those moments. So Yeah, it tends to make it feel |
| Unknown | a little bit more like a zero sum game, you know? I mean have having everybody together in one place, y you know, I think it gives gives us all a sense of community about this funny little world that we've chos And um you know, as you know, as we become progressively more fragmented, you know, I mean we we we now know it, you know, in in in in the year 2020 that digital communication can produce as much um you know fragmentation of communities, if not more, uh than it does uh nurturing of communities. And um you know well yeah, like I said, I mean it's been said, but I'll I'll miss it. |
| Unknown | Yeah, I agree. I'm uh cautiously optimistic maybe or optimistic but with some caveats um that that will kind of be back to business as usual. I mean like we said, uh S SIHH or Watches and Wonders uh has just outright cancelled um although they already had an event scheduled for February of next year. Uh I believe February of next year. And then um Basel World is quote unquote postponing for what, |
| Unknown | eleven months. |
| Unknown | Maybe, but my guess would be all bets are off. I don't that know it's kind of my feelings. Okay. Um everybody's scrambling. That that may in fact actually be part of the reason they're saying postponed instead of canceled. It may like get them out. I this is pure speculation. I have no idea. I'm talking out of my uh rear end right now. But uh yeah, it's it'll be interesting to see how it develops. And I I think, you know, I think as evidenced by the three of the three of us just chatting now, um kind of off the cuff, I think there's an appetite for for these shows and I think there's an appetite for these gatherings of the industry and it's also just, you know, from again as somebody who's who's often kind of on the the organizational side of things, like everybody doing their own thing is a giant pain for us. Like it we were supposed to have people, we were gonna have what three people or four people in Japan and three or four people in Zurich next week all at the same time for two different events. Then I was gonna fly back, John was gonna go take a train to a different event in Switzerland. Some people were gonna come back from Japan immediately, some were gonna stay to do some additional reporting. It's just like Oh yeah, before travel started to fall apart, it was really starting to look like Death of a Thousand Cuts. It really does |
| Unknown | make you wonder how a a smaller publication or a publication that's more like fashion focused who j that just dabbles in watches could have even |
| Unknown | could have even approached this. You know, fantastic watch writers who, you know, who basically work freelance and uh you know they they have to pay out of pocket for you know, fifteen international uh you know trips a year instead of two |
| Unknown | . Yeah, agreed. Um let's let's let's end on a uh sentimental note here. Uh shows are not happening this year. I'm sure we will get to Switzerland at some point, but uh as of now with the current landscape, with both the shows uh post postponed indefinitely, shall we say, uh what is the thing you're gonna miss most about attending the shows this year? I'm gonna put you on the spot |
| Unknown | first, John. Sha I think it's you know, seeing the people that you like like Jack has already kind of mentioned, the people who you see uh only once a year or maybe like once or twice per year. Um and just having those interactions in the hall and uh catching up with old friends, seeing how people are doing and uh you know uh maintaining those relationships. Nice. |
| Unknown | Jack? Yeah, I mean uh to echo John's sentiment. I'm uh absolutely and um you know the thing is the big boys, we're gonna hear from them anyway. We're gonna hear from Brolix, we're gonna hear from Tudor, we're gonna hear from Chopard, we're gonna hear from all the you know, all of the anchor tenants in the front half of Hall One. We're gonna hear from those folks anyway. They've got the budget to um uh engage with their customers and with the press uh in other ways than at a trade show. Um but what I w one thing I really will miss I'll is uh I'm I'm I'll miss seeing all of the independents um who don't necessarily have the resources to reach out to individual markets. Um, you know, so being able to go to go to uh SIHH well sorry, Watches and Wonders and Basel World and you know, see people like uh, you know, Max, Spooser and you know, the Gronefelds and um you know, Rexap Rex Epi. I mean, you know, all of these guys uh you you got a chance to sort of you know, see them all together, to connect with everybody and uh to line up on things that are a little bit harder to communicate on and um you know not seeing those guys um who do fascinating fascinating work um a lot of the time and um you know not getting a chance to uh y see their stuff hands on is uh I think it's gonna be a big loss |
| Unknown | . Yeah. I'm I'm gonna go with an answer that's a a slight variation on that answer, which is uh discovering new things. Um, you know, there's there's always every year at these shows I have like stumbled upon something I really loved, whether you know, one year it was you know meeting Reger Jeppy and and getting to experience the chronomet Contemporaine. I think it must have the first time I met Max must have been at a Basel World. But there's always you you as you're wandering the halls trying to find where your next appointment is because the maps aren't always the best. Uh you inevitably stumble upon something cool or you meet somebody interesting and like that serendipity doesn't happen when you're sorting through press releases in your email and attending pre-scheduled breakfast meetings at midtown hotels. Um you you don't get those chance encounters. Yeah. So I'm I'm gonna miss that. Uh my backup answer is gonna be the uh swarma at the secret swarm of place that we will not say the name of on air. But uh I'm gonna miss that Donner kebab man. Those are huge uh I look forward to that sandwich all year. That's like two meals right there. It reminds me of the uh the 30 rock episode with the Teamster sandwiches that they only get once a year. The Teamsters bring them the hoagies. It's like this is my like my basel world is just like I'm eating kebab all week and it's amazing |
| Unknown | . I mean the reality is um you know I mean the trade shows are wonderful, but you're kind of like far from home for a long period of time and uh uh I mean I it might sound silly to some listeners that uh you know these things these little things mean so much to us, but boy oh boy when it's like day day five or six of the trade show and uh you know I mean comfort food takes on you know tremendous tremendous importance. |
| Unknown | And it's also funny, it's like the the way you like mark the calendar in your in your life. You know, it's like, oh okay, the the sort of like end of winter, early spring means going to Basel, seeing a bunch of watches, and eating a whole way too much swarma. But watching it down with a feldschlossen. I'm gonna miss Feldschlossen. No, I'm not gonna miss Feldschlossen at all. But um awesome. Thanks, guys. Thanks for doing this. Um we are gonna run back out and make sure we get our coverage of this live on the site, which by the time you hear this, you will have already read our coverage. Uh Joe's cranking on a story right now. Um but yeah, let us know in uh head over to the site and let us know in the comments or hit us up on social media if you have questions about kind of how this is going to be handled. Hopefully we should know more uh by the time you hear this than we know while we're recording this. Uh so yeah, hit us up on Instagram, on Twitter, on Facebook, and in the comments on the website. And uh yeah, we're gonna be doing our best to keep everybody in the loop. Hopefully John and and Jack, like you guys both said, um hopefully impact of this on everybody listening is pretty minimal if we we do our jobs all right |
| Unknown | . Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I mean it's uh uh it's a truism in the luxury industry that um you know when the when the global mood is poor there's uh there's less buying and it's bad for business. But you know, the other s the other thing to me is that um the great thing about watches is uh they're uh a little bit of a break from grim reality. You know, I mean as Joe Thompson said the other day, we're kind of in the toy store uh department of life. And um boy, oh boy, we're gonna we're gonna need things to be happy about more than ever this year. Very, very true. Uh so with that in mind, thank you guys. Thank you. Thank you |
| Unknown | . Up next, my conversation with photographer and artist Phil Toledano |
| Unknown | . Why don't they set up as a sauna? There's some benches in here, just in a towel, you're just Steven in a with the oak leaves, man. Honestly, I'd be all about that. That'd be great in sauna in here. I love a sauna. Oh I do too. Yeah. A good sauna is a good thing. I was I was in Finland giving a talk once and I was at a photo festival and they'd asked me to come and talk and then and and then after every event everyone would just assemble in the sauna. So all the people you'd been with on the panel, you were just naked within a sauna. Was this like part of the conference? It was just the way you do everything in Finland. Like everything's like, oh, let's have a sauna. That's kind of amazing. Should we |
| Unknown | could you imagine that here? Like that would never apply. The idea then would be totally into naked sauna. Should we do a naked sauna in the Hodinki office? That's right. I think our HR person just stood up. Talking watches in the naked giving me giving me dirty looks. Her ears just started tingling. Already. Already. Yeah, we're we're excuse at me, man. HR people always, when I'm a That's right, man. It's the whole business. It's the whole business. Well, uh, it's good to have you on the show finally. Thank you very much for having me. I've been in the uh the hodinky orbit for a couple of years now, right? You met Ben a couple of years ago. Like one of those asteroids that's about to hit the planet. Yeah, hoping it won't. Yeah. We just look up at the night sky and say, where's where's Phil? Where's Phil? Wait, does that take cover everyone? Oh no. Yeah. Uh and people know you, people who are listening to this might know you from Talking Watches, which you did pretty quickly after you met Ben |
| Unknown | , right? I well he is the reason for the m the emptiness of my current emptiness state of my bank account. I don't think you're the only one. Yeah, I mean I met him uh I had we met because I sold him a car actually and then we became friends and then I I found myself weirdly sucked into the gravitational pull of watches and then shortly thereafter I did the talking watches. Um and it's interesting to what I know I know I knew nothing then and I know slightly less than something now |
| Unknown | . Your taste in watches has changed a lot since then. Because like back when you did talking watches, what what were some of the watches that you showed off |
| Unknown | ? I mean, it's very interesting because I've I've gone through so many phases of watches. Uh, because I'm just so this is gonna sound terrible, but I'm just really interested in all of it. Uh so the stuff I had a brightling navitimer, I had uh a brightling super ocean and an old one, which is really beautiful. Yeah. Um, what else? I have a couple of Seiko Jujaro. Oh, which we're gonna talk about that watch. I love that watch. I love I love saying that. So good. Um what else that I think did you have an icopod back then? Yeah, I had Nikepod. Yeah. Yeah I had Nike pod. Uh and now I've just kind of I've just sort of washed up I always I I I'm a bit of a this guy used to work for called me a pathological contrarian. And it's and it's that sounds about right. And it's to my detriment, but also to my advantage, because it means I poke around in corners that other people aren't necessarily poke around in and poking around in, but it also means that I end up with watches that if I tire of them I'm no one else wants to buy it |
| Unknown | . That's always the danger, right? Like when you buy something 'cause you like it, it's great because you like it, but if nobody else likes it, you're st |
| Unknown | uck. That's right. Yeah. That's exactly right. So currently my sort of obsessions revolve around um nineteen seventies Patek Philippe. Okay. Uh which I think are really it's a whole other way of looking at the watch. Yeah. Because when you when you look particularly the for me, the focus is the integrated bracelet ones. Because when you look at those watches, they're designing normally you look at a watch for the dial, and that's how the watch was designed, as the dial as the center. But with the integrated bracelet thing, they designed the whole piece as a sculptural element, the watch, the bracelet, how it integrates, how it connects, how it relates to the bracelet, the textures, all that stuff. Um, so they're really it, I think they're really beautiful. Um, so there's that, and then there's like weird 40s, 50s pre-day Tona Rolex stuff. Um and then there's Seiko from the 80s. Yeah. I'm totally design, uh, or rather, I'm I'm I'm I like to think that I'm I'm snobby |
| Unknown | agnostic, if that makes any sense. Yeah, that's fair. I mean I I think if we look at that original set of watches that you had when you did talking watches, it's a lot of sport watches. It's a lot of like chunkier, bigger, kind of like more in your face stuff. Sure. And it's funny that now, you know, kind of watching through just knowing you and your your Instagram and seeing your collection evolve, it's gotten a lot more refined and a lot more subtle in certain ways. But then there's the stuff like the Patek where it's just like it's about as in your face as a watch can get. It's just like so over the top. So the |
| Unknown | ones are the the other one, the auto the the automatic the mechanical ones are slightly I think they're less in your face.be May it's because I'm delusional which I'm I'm proud of. I mean, the thing I feel very strongly about collecting, and I've always felt whether it's cars or watches or whatever it happens to be doorknobs, is that is the whatever that was is that um it's it should be a reflection of who you are not who everyone else is. Yeah. And I find often in collecting that a lot of people buy what they see a lot of other people collecting. And I get that. There's a gravitational pull to that. Right. But but it's also kind of it's such a personal, for me, it's such a personal statement. Yeah. And I, and so I really love disappearing down those rabbit holes. Like the what one of the I also like those tiny little rectangular watches from the tank watches from the 30s and 40s, but not necessarily the traditional ones, like Alpina Gruen is an amazing, amazing piece of design for |
| Unknown | It's it's interesting you said like it should be a reflection of who you are, but at the same time it's always evolving. So do you think of yourself as someone who like you and kind of how you see yourself is always changing and you kind of like make your collections of various things, which we'll talk about, match that? Or is it more that like part of who you are is this kind of like state of constantly evolving collections? Like is is is it like is one a reflection of the other or are they kind of like part and par |
| Unknown | cel? Like I don't have those fit together. It's a really good question. And actually I think it's a bit of both. Like I've always I've always been like I just kind of I'll discover something and I'll dive into it wholeheartedly, and then a month or two later I'll go, hmm, I'm not sure if I like that anymore. But that doesn't always happen. Like sometimes a month or two later I'll still love it, or six months later I'll still love it, or a couple of years later, I'll still love it. But but I'm always sort of ferreting about um |
| Unknown | in the corners. So what's what's the watch that you've had in your collection the longest that you still just like through through all the changes in your taste is the thing that you've got to do? The one that I've kept from the talking watches is |
| Unknown | the two Giugiaro Seiko watches. Because they're just so they're so beautifully made and they're so interesting. Plus Giugiaro is a was or is a car designer that I've I've have a massive admiration for. Um so that's cool. Uh and and I guess it's interesting that the the two cheapest watches f |
| Unknown | are the ones I've held on to longest. Yeah. I mean can, can you you describe those watches? I think most people probably know what we're talking about. Well, they're known as the as |
| Unknown | the Ripley watches because uh uh Sigourney Weaver wore them in Aliens. Yeah. Um so they're integrated bracelet, w steel with this kind of weird rectangular bit on the right hand side of the case that operates the chronograph. They're sort of asymmetrical and strange. Um I think they're made of titanium actually. Is that right? I think some of them are, yeah. Uh and just kind of I don't know, very unusual and interesting. Which colours do you have again? I have the black one and the silver one, which is the only colours they made in the 80s of that design. Ah, okay, cool. Then in the reissue, they made a bunch of other colors |
| Unknown | . Yeah, they make them in like with like blue accents and red accent, like all these different ones. Yeah. Um yeah, I think another thing I've heard or said about your collecting, not just in watches, but in in all things, is that like you're the king of really ugly shit. Like you you love going super deep into stuff that everybody else is like, like I wouldn't, I wouldn't take that if you gave it to me and you're out there hunting for it. Like is that something you're doing consciously or is it just is it just |
| Unknown | Well I am uh it's a two part answer. I used to be I used to have amazing taste in cars and I would and I I had beautiful cars. I love the |
| Unknown | idea of formerly having good taste. Like the man you used to have good taste and you know you don't anymore, but like you're kind of like fuck it, I'm just doing my thing |
| Unknown | . I don't think it's bad taste. I think that because a lot of people actually love the boxy square rectangular brutes of the eighties and early nineties. There's a hu I mean there's a huge there it's what in French it's called jolie LED, which is beautiful ugly. And there is there is a certain kind of design that's beautifully ugly. And then the and but it's one of those things where it's it's like uh it can just the needle can move slightly too much towards the ugly bit, and then it's just ugly, ugly, and it's no good anymore. Yeah. Um but yeah, I I I I had all sorts of beautiful things from the 60s, car-wise. And at some point I just kind of lost interest and got really into ugly rectangular boxes from the 80s. But I I there I don't know, there's a there's a functionality to those things that's kind of intriguing to me. |
| Unknown | What what is it about the functionality that's intriguing. Like what is it I mean, to to give people a little background, it's it's your taste in cars and watches specifically that I'm talking about here. These things that are like a little boxy, they're a little aggressive, I would say in certain ways. Well, if you |
| Unknown | 're talking about the cars, the the the I had a bunch of stuff from the sixties uh that was really beautiful, but then um I had gone to buy uh uh De Tomaso Mangusta, which is a very rare car with a has a I think it's a sh uh Ford 351 Cleveland engine in the in the back. Um and I went to drive it and it was it was the most miserable experience. I drove it for about seven minutes. I got out laughing and said, Really? This is I yeah, it was because my head was touching the windscreen. The driving position is so bad. I mean, and they're notorious for this, but I didn't know at the time because I was so enamored with the aesthetics. And then the guy, it was a dealer, a vintage car dealer, he also had a BMW M1, which I had never really thought was particularly beautiful, but I thought, all right, I'll take it for a spin and cause I'm here and when am I going to get to drive one of those cars again? And I drove it and it was just amazing. And right away I thought, you know what? I'm done with the 60s. I want to and I got really interested in group B cars, rally cars from the 80s, because I love the idea that these cars have been designed for a reason. They weren't designed for posing, they weren't designed to look cool, they were designed just to just to be the best at rallied driving and I love that because it was really romantic to me that idea I mean I'm not a particularly I'm not a very adventurous person I'm not a very skilled driver but the proximity to that kind of romance was really attractive to me. So that's sort of sent me into all the boxy, all the boxy stuff I had was all group B stuff all rally stuff, all homologation cars, because they were designed for this reason, right? And so I felt less it made me feel less like a posing dick. I mean, that's what we all want, right? Yeah, well I mean, you know, like a this part of us, when you buy a car, you're like, yeah, look at me in this beautiful car. And then I sort of like the idea, like, yeah, look at me in this boxy weird car that unless you know what it is, you just think there's a guy in a boxy, ugly-looking car |
| Unknown | . And there's part of you that like that. I mean, that's a that's a cool thing. I mean, we we talk about all the time here the fact that, like, especially through Instagram, watch collecting taste has become way more homogenous than it used to be. Right. And how much of a bummer it is and how boring it is that everybody owns the same like six or seven watches. And there's something nice to like walking into a room and everybody's like, oh what do you what do you have on your wrist and you roll your sleeve up and people like what the hell is that? Well I totally agree |
| Unknown | . I mean I think that Instagram in some ways is is so detrimental because the the collective gravitational pull of Instagram is enormous. So for people to resist the ability, to resist the pull of buying an explorer or a sub or a detoner takes incredible I don't know if it's willpower or strength or awareness or consciousness, but it just does because you see it repeat. I mean, I have a perfect example. I kept seeing gold 1680 Rolex submariners. And I kept seeing going, God, that is really beautiful. More I saw it, the more I liked it, the more I wanted one. Like everything on Instagram. So I bought one and I wore it and I thought, I can't believe it. I just totally got sucked into the gravitational pull of Instagram. And it's it's a beautiful watch, but it has nothing to do with me. And that was a fascinating observation for me to reali |
| Unknown | ze. Are there watches that you found the opposite with where you kind of like bought them begrudgingly and it turned out you love them? Watches or cars. Just like anything where you were kind of like, Ah, I can't believe like I can't believe I'm doing this. This is so stupid. And then you get it and you're like, oh no, this is this is perfe |
| Unknown | ct. It is funny, like you and we've all done this. I'm sure you've done this. You know, you buy a watch and then it arrives and you open the box and you go, Oh shit, that was a mistake. I know, and it's su it's so weird how it couldn't be so seductive in pictures and then so such a kick in the nuts in person. You know what? Actually, the Lancie Delta S4. That was a car I resisted for a long time because it's I mean that is that is peak ugly. Um but then I bought it. I'm not even quite sure why I bought it. Because it was in it was it was like at the time and contextually it was a s it was a really good deal. Um, and I was interested. I always I'm really into Group B, and I thought I should have this because this is a kind of a legend of Group B cars, and then it arrived, and then I drove it, and I thought, what an idiot I've been all these years. Yeah, yeah. Just what a buffoon not to have realized how amazing this thing is |
| Unknown | . I want to go back, you know, one of the the bits of watch collecting that you're into that I I personally find really fascinating is Slash bewildering. Slash bewildering. But in a good way. Yeah. Is you you are a Rolex guy, but like you said, it's not the Rolexes everybody else is into. It's not subs. It's not GMTs. It's all the stuff that came before that. I mean, a lot of people think of Rolex as like really coming into its own in the 50s. The sub, the explorer, the GMT, like this is when all these like iconic sport watches came about. But you're collecting before that. You're collecting pre-daytoner chronographs. You're collecting in some cases like pre-date just oyster watches. Sure. Um where did that come from? Like that's those aren't watches you see all over Instagram. Those aren't watches you hear people chattering about all the time. |
| Unknown | I mean, you know, it's a really good question. Um actually, I thought I I think I saw one on the Instagram feed of a friend of mine. Okay. And and I had been collecting Eberhardts because I really there's something incredibly beautiful about a well-executed fussy dial. That design ethos of the 40s, the way they just made these incredibly complicated dials so bewitching, was just right, was something I've always loved. I mean, that's actually one thing that's from the Talking Watchers that's continued. I still have Eberhards I love. Um and then I saw these watches, these Rolexes, that were, and what was beautiful about them to me was it was the the juxtaposition, it was the kind of steel case, the shape that you're sort of familiar with in Rolex, but smaller. But then the 40s design aesthetic and that kind of paradoxical existence I thought was mesmerizing. And I wr and I got one and the moment I got it I said, these are the Rolexes for me. If I'm gonna collect any Rolexes at all, it has to be these and I really love them. And then also to your point, when you go to the sausage party, you're the only guy with a Rolex pre-daytoner for the most part. Yeah, I right. And like that. I mean, I I find it sad when you go to those parties and everyone has n 80% of the people have the subs or the Daytonas, the GMTs, or whatever it is, and they're it's not they're not beautiful. They are really beautiful, but I want I want to be surprised. Like I love it if some guy's got like a timex or say or whatever it is that I've never seen. That's really interesting to me. Yeah. Because also that says something about who that person |
| Unknown | is. Right. No, that's that's the other thing, right? Is like whether you're collecting watches or cars or art or freaking postage stamps or whatever it is, right? Like in theory your collection is supposed to say something about you and presumably the thing you wanted to say about you isn't I can buy |
| Unknown | That's what's so interesting about the kind of sport rolex obsession. And the other thing about that is I found the whole sport rolex thing kind of terrifying because it seems like there's so many, in some ways it actually mirrors uh it reminded me of people who collect American muscle cars. Okay. And then and this is why I do not know that market, so you're gonna have to explain that. This is why, because they made a shitload of Mustangs and and all the rest of it, right? So the way that people differentiate is they go, Well, this is one of six hundred that they made with the ashtray in the center as opposed to the ashtray slightly off-center. Like the the way levels are different, because they made so many, the level it becomes about these minute levels of differentiation. And that's what's that's what happens, at least as far as I can tell, with Dayton's and subject, like, oh, this is a four-line as opposed to a three-line, this is meters first, versus you know, feet first. Like that's what you're having to do to make your watch special |
| Unknown | . Right. So as a person who's who's an avid collector of things, right? Like you're you're a collector, I think that's fair to say, right? You wouldn't you wouldn't argue with that. As a as a person who is a a like real collector of things, does that sort of collecting interest you at all? The idea of this this minute differentiation, or are you is there something else that drives you. It doesn't. It's |
| Unknown | just for me, it's really well, first of all, the design is the most important thing, which is why I'm I'm kind of brand agnostic in a way. Like I'm that's why I like Seiko, because they have some really, really beautiful, interesting things that they made that are fairly audacious and then they cost 500 bucks. Right. Which is you know, how can you go wrong with that? Um, I just I just like finding I like I I'm also a massive fan of the overlooked. Like to me, if it's overlooked, I'm interested |
| Unknown | . What do you think is overlooked right now? Now you're gonna blow it up. You're gonna you're gonna talk about it and then it's not gonna be overlooked anymore. W |
| Unknown | ell no, I don't think well, I think the seventies Patek is overlooked, but I don't think it's gonna blow up because I still think it's gonna take people a while to go from, you know, a burly sixties uh submariner to a fairly small a much smaller seventies per tech. But I think those are overlooked because they're they're really beautiful. They're fairly rare. Um the craftsmanship is incredible. Um I I love those. Um Do you wear your beta 21? Oh yeah. Yeah. I was |
| Unknown | gonna wear it today and I was like, you know what? No, I haven't it's it'll be too expected. I'm glad honestly, I'm glad you didn't wear it on mic only because we'd be able to hear it the whole time. Those watches are so loud. I know. I know for people for people who are listening who who haven't seen one of these, the the beta 21s, they're these like TV shaped cases. Right. And they have the earliest Swiss quartz movements in them, but they're not like what you see today with like where it ticks like a swatch or something like that. And they're not quiet and electronic. It's like a motor drive, and you can hear them. They just go like |
| Unknown | the whole time in the background. Well, also, I mean, the movement is actually an amazingly hilarious thing to look at. It's kind of like if you were to open up the command module of a of an Apollo command module in nineteen sixty eight and look at the inner workings, it looks like that. It's like all valves and tubes and like weird shit in there. The first |
| Unknown | time I ever saw one was uh I guess it was probably like twenty thirteen I was visiting the Piaget manufacturer and they were part of the consortium that invented this movement. That's right. And they had one in their archive and they pulled it out and they, you know, got it going. And it was just the movement just sitting on the table. Yeah, yeah, basic basically, yeah. Um I remember looking at it and thinking like this looks like a science fair project. Like this looks like a thing I would have put together when I was like 12 to like impress my middle school science teachers. Yeah, and then your teacher says, I can make a and then your teacher goes, I feel like you do a bit better. Right. Exactly. Because this is all you've got. But in |
| Unknown | the in the 70s, this was like, this was the thing that was going to save the industry. This was their like last hope. I mean I kind of love the history attached to the the beta twenty-one movement. Yeah because it was it was like a it was like the you know the rebel alliance going up against the evil empire. |
| Unknown | Yeah. And it's funny to think it's the Rebel Alliance, which at the time was Patek and Rolex, the underdogs. And uh I think Hamilton was involved. I think Tech Hoyer was involved, like or at the time Hoyer was involved. It's crazy to think that like those guys at the time had to like band together and literally just like it's like a circuit board stuff. They were |
| Unknown | on their knees. Yeah. And they churned out, I think, six thousand of those movements to be divided between all the whole entire consortium. It's crazy. Uh I love I love wearing the Beijer 21. It's just it's an amazing and it weighs the paddock thought |
| Unknown | it was a good idea to put those in yellow and white gold giant cases with these huge bracelets. But |
| Unknown | you needed the Well, I think my understanding was they partially made those they made the giant case in order to accommodate the movement, but also to justify the vast expense. Right. Yeah. I mean this is like it's like a gold it's like a wearing a gold brick on your wrist. You can brain a zombie with it. Do you Do you have the yellow or the white? Both. Both. Which one does it? As we do. Yeah. As you do. As you do.. Yeah, of cour |
| Unknown | se I can't decide. I wear both on a regular basis. Okay. They're they're wild watches. Do people stop you? Are people |
| Unknown | like what the hell is this? No one ever says anything. Nobody has any idea. If I go to a sausage watch sausage extravaganza, then watch sausage extravaganza. It should be a it should be like a league. Yeah. Um then people will look at them and they're they they find them interesting. But no one pe I mean I think if people I think because contemporary watches are so giant, I think people just think I'm wearing like a super giant shitty watch I bought at the gas station for twelve bucks. Which again. |
| Unknown | I'm sure the amazing designers at the TechFilip in the seventies would love uh love to know that. I know. |
| Unknown | Oh cool, cool, cool, cool. That's where we've ended up. Thank you. I'm so happy |
| Unknown | . Yeah. I mean I think that I really I think they're really exquisite. I agree. I love that watch. And Matt Jacobson who',s been on the show, also did talking watches. He's also a big fan. Oh, is that right? It's one of those watches I think like when you're a collector of of things in general, uh specifically of design, I would say of design objects. you W'henre somebody who spends enough time around this stuff, I think it's kind of a in an illogical way, it's a logical place to end up. Well like when you're looking for new things, when you're looking for things that are different, things with real historical value, things that are rare, like there aren't many of them. They're super weird. They represent a really interesting bit of history. And they're just like fun in a way that a lot of watches aren't |
| Unknown | . Oddly enough, uh, I had been looking at them on and off for a couple of years. And then I noticed one was up for auction at Christie's. So I went up there just to see it. And when I put it on my wrists, I'm not joking, man, like it was like a bloody event. It was like a ri it's a wrist circus. Yeah. I mean it was just I put on us and I thought, holy shit, this is it it was, it blew me away how because it's so heavy on your wrist. Yeah. And it's so kind of it has such incredible presence. I couldn't it it was was amazing to me. Like I was not expecting that to happen when I tried it on. I |
| Unknown | think it's funny too to think about that because the watch you're wearing today is like the exact opposite, right? Like I I can't think of many watches that are less like giant yellow gold beta 21 than the watch of mine. Can you tell me tell tell |
| Unknown | everybody what watch you open? Um I'm wearing um this is gonna be this is gonna be a source of comedy for anyone listening. I'm wearing a quartier tortu monopoussoir There we go. I love saying You took high school French, didn't you? I my mother was French. I took high school French just to be able to say that word. Right. So uh it's a it's a it's um it's a cartier watch from the late 90s. Um the movement is something special. It was done in conjunct by three guys, FP Joule, and I can't remember the other two geezers because I'm a Philistine |
| Unknown | . Yeah, that that movement was made by uh this little company that at the time it was it was FP Jorn, Viani Halter, and um Denny Flagellay, who have all gone on to like have their own companies. They've made these really iconic watches. But at the time there were like three guys designing movements for high. Yeah, exactly. They were |
| Unknown | these are early days of independent watchmaking. I mean, I won't I won't I won't pretend that I I bought the watch because they made the movement, but that was certainly an attractive thing. Yeah. Uh I just bought the watch because I just thought, well, one thing, I just really love how it looks. And it's and it's a really um it's very hard to do a modern interpretation of an old design successfully. Yeah. Hashtag for Thunderbird. Shots shots fired. Yeah. So so um although I actually saw one the other day in Turquoise Green, I thought, ah, it's kind of cool in the totally odd way. Anyway, so I look it's it it's really a successful interpretation of that and I I just think it's really beautiful. Um I love the giant crown. U |
| Unknown | h and yeah, because it's it's mono pusher, but the crown is the mono pusher. That's right. So there's no other buttons on the case. Yeah, exactly. Um |
| Unknown | is it steel or white gold? White gold. It's actually very heavy. It's very dense. And then I also like the fact they made a couple of hundred. So for the inveterate snob and it w who lives who's lives and breathes within me. Yeah, right. I I like the idea that you won't see many around. And I think again, I think this is a watch that's I mean it's a lot of watch for the money |
| Unknown | . I agree. Yeah. I mean, we've seen a couple of them come up for auction in the last couple years and prices are starting to go up, but like it wasn't that long ago. You could get them for four figures, which is |
| Unknown | insane. Well, they're still, I mean, well, I mean, okay. It's all can it's all relative. I remember when I first started collecting, the idea of spending two or three grand on a watch just seemed crazy. Oh for yeah, for sure. And now here I am saying, you know what, a wat |
| Unknown | ch for fifteen grand is a bargain. Yeah, but like considering what you get, like in the marketplace, like well, all things |
| Unknown | are relative, right? But I think okay, a watch of which they made two hundred of that's this beautiful with that kind of provenance in terms of who made it the m the the movement, that's |
| Unknown | a that's pretty reasonable. Agreed. And that's another watch in a in a funny way similar to the beta twenty-one, where like you don't see them often, but when you see them you you know that that collector is like at a certain point in their collecting journey. Exceptional taste. Has exceptional taste. Exactly. Exactly. You said it. You said it, not me. Um Yeah, it's it's it's funny. I mean, uh Ahmed Rahman, who's a talking watches guest, had one of those featured, and I know a couple, maybe three or four other guys who have them, and it's uh it's one of those watches every time I see it I'm like, oh damn, that is good. Like oh I forgot I always forget it exists and then I see it and I'm like, oh and I'm not a chronograph guy. I mean I don't I don't own a single watch right now that's not time only or time and date. And that's that's a chronograph I could own. It's well it's this is i |
| Unknown | if I could I could totally see you wearing this. Yeah. Because it has there's not much on it. Right. It's barely a chronograph. Yeah. Yeah. It's a chronograph, but barely it's commonly as a threadbare chronograph. Yeah, exactly. I like that. It's chronologic. It |
| Unknown | 's horologically threadbare. I like that. Um we've we've talked a lot about design and how your collecting is pretty design-driven. And I think some of that is probably due to the fact that you are an artist, a practicing working artist. Allegedly. Yeah, allegedly, right. Yeah. That's right. You you have people have paid you for things you call art. That's right. Well, in the past have given me money in exchange for stuff I've made. Correct. Yeah. So we'll we'll call you an artist. I think a lot of people don't have any idea that like you don't like graduate from college, go rent a giant loft space, and you're like, I'm an artist. Now people buy things for me. Like what it what is it like to be a like working artist and how does that come about? Well, first of all, it's extremely lucrative |
| Unknown | . Oh, perfect. I mean it's and super easy. Amazing. Anyone who's thinking of it, just go ahead. It's like better than being a lawyer. Don't bother being a lawyer. Don' |
| Unknown | t get into banking. Just be an artist. Any parents listening to this podcast, please, please disregard. Don't I I don't wanna hear you hear from you in the mentions. Um |
| Unknown | Well, I was uh I was in advertising for about ten or twelve years um and I I had not gone to art school, but advertising was a form of art school for me and I'd always wanted to be an artist and never really had the courage for it. And I guess at one point I was so tired of listening to myself moan about wanting to be an artist. I thought, just do it. And if it doesn't work out, you can always skulk back to advertising and you know, carry on making your five-figure salaries and going renting houses in the Hamptons. Yeah. Which which is not a bad existence. But it wasn't a but it wasn't uh from a soul perspective, it wasn't a very satisfying existence. Um so I start I was I was luckily or and surprisingly fairly successful off the bat as an editorial photographer. So I shot for all I mean, I shoot for everyone, you know, Times, New Yorker, I mean, anyone you can think of, I shot for. But I but and I was always doing personal projects, and I would I had published a couple of books. And as I progressed in as a photographer, I just thought about what mattered to me the most. And what mattered to me the most was making stuff for myself that mattered, that was important. Um so that's I sort of segued out of editorial stuff and focused mostly on I mean entirely on being an artist. Um so if I want to sound like a pompous dick I would love for you to please please do please that's why we had you on the show, Phil. Come on. Why else would I have you on? Come on. If I want to give the trolls something to talk about, uh I say I'm a conceptual artist because everything for me is around the idea of ideas. I I I I start with an idea and that's the project. Okay. |
| Unknown | One of my favorite projects of yours, it's probably not it's it's in fact I know it is not the thing you are most well known for, but I love it, especially knowing you. I love it, I think a little bit more than most, is make feel great again. Uh I rewatched all of it yesterday, uh, as I was preparing for this. Uh and I just sat and just like giggled at my desk. Uh for like That is exact that's that's all the the reaction I would like. It's perfect. I |
| Unknown | just love it. Can you can you explain this project to people? Sure. Um well uh I am actually surprisingly not really a Republican. Interesting. I know it's shocking. I know as an artist, I'm a little bit on the left. Uh and I was thinking a lot about the idea of what it how to succeed as an artist for the most part you need someone who's somebody to say that you're somebody. You have to get the sort of papal seal of approval from a public figure who's already admired. And it works that way in everything. It works that way in in watches. Look at John Mayer saying uh that gold Rolex, the green dial sub was a good thing to buy. Yeah, yeah. And then that went mental. So he's the he's the horological pope, he gives it the wave and everyone goes, Oh, I like that watch. And it's the same as in an artist. Someone like you know, whatever, like uh um Gargosian says Phil Tolodano's a great artist. Everyone goes, Oh, I've always loved his work. For years I've been a huge fan, right? That's how it works. So then I thought, well, um I've been very interested in watching Trump make uh he makes reality out of lies. He he builds with lies. He constructs his own truth out of lies. And it's fascinating to watch. Whatever he says is the truth. I thought, all right, maybe that's what I should do. I should use the Trump method. So I said, I'm gonna find I'm gonna make a list of like the top five or six people in the art world, Gagosian, Cindy Sherman, Richard Prince, um uh uh and then I what I'd do is and then I would find people with the same names as them. So I found a Cindy Sherman, but it's Cindy Sherman who happens to be a s a a therapist, she's a shrink in New Jersey. And I would go and meet see these people and I would interview them and I'd have them talk about how great they thought I was on video. But they're not the real artists. They're pretend they just have the same name. So Cindy Sherman talks about how she's just sort of finds it all perplexing that I, you know, I'm I've got deep psychological problems that I'm asking her to tell me how great she thinks I am and like she doesn't even know me. Um and she has her dog on her laptop. She has a dog. Uh Larry I found a Larry Gagosian, but is it as a Gary Gagosian, and he was a tailor in LA. I found a uh Chuck Close who was a kid in in Connecticut, um |
| Unknown | who does a s like a slam poem in a video. And it makes my I've watched that one maybe like two or three times. I can't watch it like I watch the other ones because it makes my skin crawl. |
| Unknown | It is us it is incr it's one of the hardest things I've ever that's that I've ever had to watch because he does the he does a rap and it's just it's it's I admire his I don't know it's just it's tough to watch. It's really tough to watch. It's just like I can I I get physically uncomfortable watching it. I mean that's that was kind of the way it edited it. Yeah. To leave in all incredibly awkward silences, but it it is it's tough to watch. So that was uh that's an example of a of a of an idea of a concept, right? But the thing it for me is that everything I do, I'm not it it's it's the idea determines the execution. So it's not photography, not necessarily always photography, sometimes it's installation or video or whatever it happens to be. Um I'm working on a thing right now. Um, you know how people talk about the deep state? Yeah. All the time. So I'm doing a project. I thought, what if the deep state is actually a state? Okay. So it's Virginia State, New York State, and the deep state. Okay. And in the deep state, all the paranoia is all the fears the of the right wing, all the conspiracy theories, they all exist, they're real. Okay. So it's a road trip through this fictitious place. So what I'm doing is I'm digitally creating things that would exist in a deep state as photograph Okay. So you're you're So for instance there's a giant gold leaf statue of Hillary Clinton on horse that's like thirty feet high on a horseback. And so these are all like you're you're like rendering these things. Yeah, that but I'm taking I'm shooting back plates of the image. Uh I'm shooting a backplate, like a a backdrop, and then with I'm working with these retouches, these amazing digital people in England who then create the thing and we drop it into that photograph so it looks totally real. Okay. And then I'm gonna drop them on I think what I'm I'm thinking about how I'm gonna r on reveal the the project. Um actually I probably shouldn't say on the on the on the podcast. Should I? That would kind of blow the idea out of the water. All right. All right. So there's that that I'm working on. I've got a I've just finished a project. Um I I I I sometimes I'm just I'm a massive history buff. Okay. And I've always loved archaeology. And I stumbled across this um these helmets, US Navy fighter pile helmets from the Vietnam War. And the hell helmet art is utterly incredible. I've never seen anything like it it. And it and and and and it basically there was a small pocket of time between like the mid-60s and mid-70s when uh uh fighter pilots could design the helmets any way they saw fit before the it was kind of the dawn of the jet age before the US Navy and the military said said you've got to you know it's got to be more standardized. So what they what they did was they made these incredible designs that really reflect kind of contemporary art of the 60s and 70s. So I I shot all those, and that's gonna be a book. |
| Unknown | And then what else am I doing? Yeah, I mean I'm I'm looking at some of these helmets now on your Instagram, and there's they're so strange. Well they they they form a f they perform a fun |
| Unknown | ction because they're all with reflective tape. So that if you the idea you had to because the you had the they they perform two functions. As a US Navy fighter pilot, you had to first of all be able to find your helmet in the ready room amongst all the other helmets. Right. Number one. But number two is if you ditched in the water, the helicopter searchlights had to be able to find you. So it's all reflective tape. But after that, they could just do whatever they wanted to do. Interesting. And it's incredible what they did. It's so beyond what you think would be able to exist in the context |
| Unknown | of the military-industrial complex. Yeah, and you've you've shot them in such a way too where they're they're sort of isolated on a white background, but they still have this like real amazing three-dimensional quality. Well they're floating. And they have a drop shad |
| Unknown | ow and I kind of like the idea they were floating. Uh and then if you if you if you look at them, because the the prints are four foot prints. You can see all the patina, the filth that's sort of accrued over the course of forty or fifty years of just sitting around as someone's attic or whatever it is. Yeah. So that's gonna be a book, and there's gonna be some interviews with some of the in-period pilots. Um and then the other thing I'm doing is um is a book that's coming out of uh uh this is gonna be very hard to explain um it's censored packaging from Iran. Interesting. So what it is is I I had been looking at a friend of mine's book and she had she had done a book of women in Saudi Arabia, and in the back of in the background one of the pictures, these women were in a store, I saw all this packaging and all these figures on the packaging had been rubbed out with marker. And I said, shit, this is amazing. What is this? And she explained to me that any packaging with women on it, they marker out the woman. And that was utterly fascinating to me. So I found I talked to a friend of mine in Iran and I got her to send out her sister to send and to buy all this packaging products and send me the packaging. And then what I did was I shot the packaging, but then I removed the packaging so you just see the censored figure. Oh, okay. So I can send you some stuff later, but it's what what you see is it it's it's it's a portrait, but not of a person. It's a portrait of a regime, it's a portrait of a view of women, it's a portrait of a particular point in history, it's a portrait of a moment in history for a particular religion. Uh and it's I found that really interesting. So there's a book of that stuff that will probably be coming out soon. |
| Unknown | D do you think that this way of looking at the world and of kind of like you're searching for things, right? Like you you've always got this kind of in the back of your head. You're thinking critically about things, you're you're looking for these sort of like off perspectives. Do you think that that then impacts outside of your work, your hobbies, whether it's collecting, whether it's watches or cars or whatever, uh, or your own collecting of of art and sort of historical artifacts. Absolutely man. I know you have some cool non watch non-car stuff as well. Spa |
| Unknown | ce suit. Space suit. Absolutely. I mean I think you're absolutely right. I mean I I'm just interested in the corners. Yeah. In the like I said earlier, the little dusty corners that people aren't really paying attention to. That's the most interesting stuff to me. I mean, that the helmets in some ways is so interesting because I look at that and go, holy shit, I've never seen that before. It's a tiny little pocket of history that has disappeared. No one has no one remembers that. No one knows I mean when people look at them, they go, I've never seen it. And to me, that's the point of art. And actually, in some ways, that's the point of collecting. Like there's nothing that makes me more excited than being surprised. Whether it's looking at art or looking at someone's watches or their cars, I go, oh shit, that's a fascinating. I haven't seen that before. |
| Unknown | And what do you think we we learn from that? Like what's the next step? So from looking in the corners, you might see stuff you've never seen before, and then what's the what's the sort of payoff or the takeaway from that? Well, what's interesting |
| Unknown | to me is that those things mattered. Right. Like at some point everything matters, right? And it's just history and context that makes it not matter. Like if you think about it, the Pateks of the 70s, those were the watches at that time, everyone loved those watches, and now they don't matter at all. Yeah. And what what is it? What makes what's the makes things I'm interested in this idea. What what's the shift? What makes things matter and then stop mattering? And then sometimes they matter again. Yeah. And all it requires for them to matter again is for the papal wave to happen. Right. So someone to say, you know what, those 70s fighter battle hammocks, those are really amazing. And everyone goes, Oh, I've always loved them. So so what do you think everybody always l |
| Unknown | oved everything?, right Like it's everyone always knows, right? No one ever says you know what? I had no clue. No one says that. Or I don't like it. Or like I still don't like it. Like very few people I kind of have the guts to be like, no, I'm I'm good on that. Um what do you think is something today in watches that we're gonna go through this cycle with soon where like something that you think is is of the moment and hot right now that you think maybe 10 years from now, everyone's gonna hate and, then 20 years from now, everyone's gonna have said that they loved all along. I'm not sure about that g |
| Unknown | old Rolex of the green dial. Interesting. I'm not sure about that. Because it's funny, because I had been looking at that when he said it on the thing, I thought, oh, I should look at it. I had the reflex like everyone else. And I looked, I thought, I don't know, it's a bit shiny. And I know that's ironic coming from a guy who likes 70s Bad Tech. I wasn't gonna call you on it, but yeah. You you know, but feel free. But that's a different kind of shiny. To me, that's a more interesting historical shiny than this particular. I find that this that that watch, I'm not sure, other than it's a it's a nice color scheme. Why? Um let's see, I'm trying to think. I mean, can you think of any things that you th uh that spring to mind that that you think that everyone's uh a buzz with now that will not be later? Yeah |
| Unknown | , I mean we've we've said this before. Ben and I have had this conversation on the show before is uh steel sport watches on bracelets. Like we're we're reaching like we we are already in and maybe over the hill, maybe not, of like peak steel sport watch, blue dial bracelet, the whole thing. Right. Uh not even all blue dial, but like whether it's Rolex DMT's, Rolex Daytona's, uh, AP Royal Oaks, Patdock Nautilus's, or one of the nine million other brands that is making a watch in this category, which for the record, some of them are great, some of them are terrible. Um |
| Unknown | I totally agree with you. And actually, that's part that I I didn't mention this earlier, but that's in part why I never collected those things also, is because I they frighten me. Because when there's such a feeding frenzy, yeah, that to me is a me it just just from a purely financial point of view. I mean, if you're buying these watches, they cost a lot of money. So part of me doesn't want to be a an idiot. Although if you look at what I collect, you might I think it's hard to you might think I'm a massive I'm a weapons grade buffoon. Yeah. But there's such a feeding frenzy over that stuff. Why |
| Unknown | would you get into it? Yeah. I mean, I I Ben and I again have had this chat on the show with with some some of the other folks here. And I think there's gonna be, and and I think Ben is maybe the one who who put this idea out there, but I agree. I think there's gonna be a backlash against it. I think we're gonna see smaller watches, watches on straps, a kind of like return to maybe maybe if not dress watches, more like what I would call like everyday watches, you know, stuff like field watches and you know, f three-handers or basic chronographs that are not precious metal, not delicate, whatever, but not sport watches either. Um I think we're gonna see a push in that just direction just because watches like all markets and all fashions go through cycles. Right. The same thing can't be hot forever. It just doesn't work that way. And anyone who thinks it does is totally fooling themselves. So I think we're going to see a pushback and then it'll go back the other direction. I think this is like a pendulum. It's going to swing back and forth. Um I agree. I hope it swings to a place where like multiple things can be cool at once instead of it having to be homogenous. But you know, you know what I bought the other day which I really love is the two to P0 |
| Unknown | 1. Oh yeah. Do you wear it? Yeah. You like it? Oh, I think it's great. I really think that's a cool watch. Also, I think you ha the moment I put it on a mesh strap. Oh, cool. And it totally changes the send me a photo. I've never seen it on a mesh strap. Yeah, let me let me that's super cool. It it it |
| Unknown | radically changes the whole watch. It's funny, I know I know now maybe half a dozen people who have who have bought that watch who love it. I don't know a single person who's bought it and then regretted it. Everyone who buys it has fun with it and really enjoys it. Oh that is cool. |
| Unknown | It totally changes the watch because it's just dumb to have it on a leather strat. The moment because the what's amazing to me about that watch is it's a it's it's not a watch that has been through 40 cycles of committees and redesigns and all that. It's basically it's more or less what it was in the 60s. Yeah. Ish. Yeah. And and it's super industrial. Yeah. And I love that. And then when you put it on a steel strap, it feels even more industrial. I mean it's all un it's ungainly and odd and and I like that. Yeah. No, I agree. I think that's cool. So I think that of of if I was gonna say what modern watch to get, uh that to me is a s is a really interesting thing. That's awesome. Uh |
| Unknown | what's next for you in your watch collecting? I mean you said you just got that. What's up next? You know what else I bought which |
| Unknown | I've been wanting to buy for ages? Was a Resence. Oh, did you? Which one? I got a type 5, the dive watch. Nice. But I found it on eBay. You |
| Unknown | bought a resins on eBay? For for a bargain. Interesting. I think I know I think I know some folks who sell resins that you know as well. Yeah, |
| Unknown | I think you might. Yeah, I think I think possibly. Yeah, maybe. I think they're I really love those watches. And and every time I post it, people go crazy for it. Interesting. And then they Google it and then they s and then they post the comments, oh I just looked at the price. Right. Yeah. And I and I Most people see them and think it's like a novelty thing. They don't realize what it is. Yeah, I think it's an amazing piece of design. It's an amazing piece of technology. Did you ever see the original ones with a crown |
| Unknown | ? The type of zero? I think I saw, yeah, I think I saw I remember we got one, it was like my f one of my it was within the first six months of me being at Hodinki. Uh I feel like you're you could be a resident skeezer. Oh for sure. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I'm I'm been a fan again. Like I it was fall 2012, I think, when I first saw the one with the crown, the type zero. The movement still was kind of shaky, didn't work so great. It was it had a crown, which has now become one of the big calling cards is these watches don't have crowns. Uh and I've always loved it. And I've always thought Benoit, who's behind the brand and his team, they're like real, genuine mad scientists. I totally agree. Uh and they kind of operate outside the watch world in a lot of ways and outside the usual procedures and the usual sort of design thinking and the usual sort of industrialization processes. I think what they |
| Unknown | do is utterly stunning. It's interesting because I mean if that watch, if they saw if they sold their watches in the 10 to 15 grand range, I feel like they'd sell a zillion. And I don't know what it costs to make. I have no idea about the production cost and all that stuff. And I I mean I look at the type 5 and it's titanium and it's incredibly light and uh and exquisitely made. Um but then I also look at a lot of other independent watchmakers who make watches that cost 20, 25 grand and they have no problems selling theirs. So I wonder what it is about Ressence to people that they I I feel like they don't buy it because it doesn't look conventional. But then what about Urworks and all those kind of people? I |
| Unknown | think I mean I think it requires education, right? And like that's to some extent what we're trying to do here a lot of the time is is just give people the tools to then learn more and make their own choices, their own taste choices. And yeah, resonance requires some explanation. Because you're right. I think a lot of people look at it and they assume it's gonna be like a five hundred dollar, like it's a design novelty. Well, they think it's it's probably right, it's probably quartz or like whatever. And then when they realize it's a it's a normal workhorse movement that any watchmaker can service, yeah, and then it's got this crazy thing kind of like jerry-rigged on top of it, and then everything has to be made to insane tolerances. I remember the first time Benoit explained to me how they make the titanium cases, and like that was the first time I realized that like you have to make them in special facilities because otherwise they burn the building down and it's like a whole thing. As you do. Yeah. And like I had no idea. Right. And like I do this for a living. And I had no idea. Imagine for most consumers it's like they don't even realize one compon |
| Unknown | ent cost, you know, X amount of money. I think they're I mean the moment I saw it I was just mesmerized and bewitched and I I I I wish there was a way for I don't know. I I just think they're amazing. I love them. I bought two watches um recently. I bought a I bought another Patek Quartz watch. Okay. The 3770? No one knows what that is. It's incredibly rare. We do not know what that is. It looks like a cross between an ellipse and a and a and a uh Nautilus. People call the Nautilus. 3770? I think that's it. I could be totally wrong. It's a fact it's highly likely I'm wrong. |
| Unknown | Oh no, you're you're right. Okay. Uh I believe you are correct. Oh yeah. That's so weird. It's quartz.. Yeah Okay. It really does we'll link this up in the show notes. We'll link up a photo of this. It does just it's a nautilus that's shaped |
| Unknown | like an ellipse. I think it's it's so weird. For me, it's beautiful. I really love it. And it and it and it falls right under my guy under my strict guidelines of a an un overlooked watch in the corner that no one will ever buy from me. No, you're gonna you're gonna have a hard time offloading that. And the other thing I'm trying to buy is a a ZRC Series two dive watch from the sixties. Okay. 'Cause I just think the dial, the whole th it's like the Citroen of Watches. Okay. But that's a fair thing. I mean the the French are so that's what I think is overlooked about the French, is they are wildly eccentric. Interesting. I mean, look at the they make just crazy shit. You know, the English are a little bit that are sort of traditional, the Italian have all this flair, and then the French are the crazy people. Perfect. I mean I mean I I honestly have never thought about it. They really are. You're not wrong. I just haven't thought about it. Well you it's amazing to me. They're really out to lunch and it's great. So you're you're buying stock in French design. Just that one watch, which no one really probably likes other than me and twelve French guys. Alright, that's fine. That's enough.. That's my specialty Thirteen's a market, right? Ye |
| Unknown | ah. Uh cool. Well thanks. Thanks so much for coming and chatting. And uh yeah, I have a funny, funny feeling we'll be hearing more from you uh down down the road here. But uh from a minimum security jail. Yeah. Pro minimum minimum is you're pushing it here. One can only dream. True. Uh we'll link up some of your work so people can check that out too and uh let us know when the new project comes out. We'll do. Thanks so much for having me, man. Awesome. Thanks, Phil. This week's episode was recorded at Hodinki HQ in New York City and was produced and edited by Grayson Korhonen. Please remember to subscribe and rate the show, it really does make a difference for us. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next week. |