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Watches And Wine With Sommelier Aldo Sohm

Published on Mon, 3 Feb 2020 11:00:07 +0000

Wine and design, baby.

Synopsis

This episode of Hodinkee Radio features two distinct conversations about the intersection of luxury goods and craftsmanship. The first segment is a fascinating discussion with Aldo Sohm, the renowned sommelier at three-Michelin-star restaurant Le Bernardin and owner of his eponymous wine bar in New York City. Host Stephen Pulvirent discovers that Sohm is not only a wine expert but also a dedicated watch enthusiast. Sohm discusses his collection, which includes pieces from IWC, Jaeger-LeCoultre, Rolex, and notably a Vacheron Constantin Quai de l'Île in titanium that he wears as his daily watch. He draws compelling parallels between wine and watches, noting how both industries value craftsmanship, detail orientation, and the balance between tradition and innovation. Sohm also discusses his new book "Wine Simple," which aims to make wine more accessible and less intimidating for everyday people, much like Hodinkee seeks to make watches approachable.

The second segment features Jack Forster's conversation with Grand Seiko designer Nobuhiro Kosugi, recorded during a special visit to discuss Grand Seiko's design philosophy. Kosugi shares his journey into watch design, beginning in 1973 at another manufacturer before eventually joining Seiko in 1993 and taking charge of Grand Seiko design in 1995. The conversation centers on the iconic 44GS case design from 1967, which established the "Grand Seiko Style." Kosugi explains how this design was initially considered too difficult to manufacture due to its multi-dimensional surfaces, but advances in craftsmanship and polishing techniques eventually made its reinterpretation possible in 2014. He discusses the importance of light and shadow in Grand Seiko design, the Zaratsu polishing technique, and the crucial role of skilled craftsmen (shokunin) in creating Grand Seiko's distinctive aesthetic. Throughout both conversations, themes of craftsmanship, attention to detail, and the human element in creating luxury goods resonate strongly.

Transcript

Speaker
Unknown I had a client in front of me uh a couple of years ago. Now we became actually quite good friends, who said to me, I'm not like everybody here at Le Bernadette in our dining room. I'm just a regular guy from a suburban area. So I barely can afford uh a meal here. Can you recommend me a wine for regular civilians? And he was rather provocative with that. And I said, Sir, I love the area where you're from, because I live also in the suburbs in Brooklyn. And said, but in Brooklyn, not many people we are FP Journey. So with a little sense of humor, you can do so many things
Unknown Hey everybody, I'm your host Stephen Polverant and this is Hodinky Radio. There are certain things that often get paired with watches. Watches in cars, watches in cameras, and watches in wine. And this week's guest knows a lot about that third one. His name's Aldo Som, and he's the Somalier at 3 Michelin Star Restaurant Le Bernadette and his eponymous Aldo Som wine bar here in New York City. He's somebody who's been on my radar for a long time, but I never actually knew he was a watch guy. It was a ton of fun bringing him here into the studio to talk about our mutual love of watches, as well as his new book, Wine Simple, which is all about making wine more fun and more approachable. It's something that all of us here at Hodinky can really appreciate. After that, we have a conversation that was recorded back in the fall between Jack and Grand Seiko designer Noblehiro Kusugi. The two of them talk about all things Grand Seiko design, everything from the 44 GS case and why it's become so iconic to the way that nature plays a role in the design process at Grand Seiko. It's a fascinating look at a manufacturer that's often relatively secretive. Without further ado, my chat with Aldo This week's episode is brought to you by the Hodinki Shop. Stay tuned later in the show to learn more about how the Hodinki Shop is changing the watch buying game. For more, visit shop.hodinki.com. Thanks so much for joining us. Good to have you here. Oh thank you for having me. I uh I'll admit I'm I'm a fan of your work, but not not the book that's sitting in front of us until recently, but uh having been to the the restaurant and the wine bar before uh pretty pretty fantastic experiences there. Have fun, you know. Yeah. So we we got connected not through wine, which is which is what you're known for, but through watches, uh actually. And uh your colleague, Mr. Eric Rapair, is a well-known watch guy, but uh it turns out you're you're a bit of a watch guy too. Yeah, I'm a little bit hidden
Unknown there and under the radar. I'm not too loud about it, but uh it's funny, you know, what I I dove into that world a little bit and really Those little things they make the difference. Right. For someone who doesn't really look half that you know that's okay. Might be not so special, but for the one who knows, wow, this is really cool. Yeah. I mean, when did you when did you first get interested in watches?
Unknown Um in two thousand and one. Okay. And what kind of like what kind of precipitated this? What started things? Uh I spoke to a watch journalist
Unknown . That'll that'll do it. We have a reputation. I was drawn onto his watch because it was the um the IWC, the GST. Oh cool. Perpetual calendar. Yeah. And you know, in titanium, they don't produce it anymore. But I thought, wow, this is actually a really cool piece. And he actually raved about it too. He said because you can wear that you can wear it all the time.
Unknown And so from there, what was what was the kind of process from from that moment until you said, okay, maybe I want to like buy a a nice watch, an interesting wat
Unknown You know, I love research. Uh I spend countless hours after work uh or sometimes in the morning researching uh what's the difference, looking into the finer details, reading reviews, uh reading what people have to say and I I find that that is a really cool process. Um how I've always done things, with it with wine but also with watches or so I find that part very interesting. But then um I got as a gift once a Rolex and then the damage was done. That'll that'll do it. Yeah. Yeah, well they were very kind to me. T
Unknown hen the next one was a Jaeger Le Kult. Okay. And what drew you to that watch? It's it's an interesting one. Yeah,
Unknown it's a master compressor. Yeah. Um geographic. Well, I moved to the United States, so having two time zones I thought was it came incredibly handy. Yeah. I thought I go a little sportier. And uh it had a rubber band also. And for me running around all day long, um I wasn't really particularly fond of um leather bands because you have to change them non-stop and so a rubber band you can wash, and I thought this is just perfect.
Unknown And then from there, you ended up uh kind of dipping your toes into to Vashron Constantown, which is what you have on today. Uh yeah. Well this is my
Unknown this is my almost my daily watch, believe it or not, uh because it's so discreet. Um no one calls me out on it and uh I have this now for this wash this KD Lila have now for I think eight years. Okay. Eight, nine years. Okay. And I think four people called me out on it. That's that's not too bad. Which is great. Yeah, because I you know I I like the we m th that's a beautiful thing in modesty. Yeah
Unknown , agreed. Uh can you tell us about this particular model? Uh it's one that you don't see. I don't I haven't seen this watch too often. No, it's in a while.
Unknown It's kind of a little weird. Uh the kid a little series I thought was especially astonishing because uh you could assemble it yourself if you wanted. Also, this is rather unique because the titanium is super light and it's also the dial is made by the same company who makes the Swiss franc. So it's quite cool. And I thought this is actually rather unique
Unknown . And I think Washron got away a little bit from KD Lille. Yeah, it's a really cool watch 'cause there's there's something nice. I mean you said there's something beautiful in in modesty and it's cool to see a watch from a brand like that that it's it's a super high end, really amazing watch. I mean, there really isn't much better watchmaking out there than than Vasharam, but to have it in titanium, it's all matte finished, it's on a rubber band. It's like it's really it's really under the radar, even amongst watch guys. Uh yeah, totally. And
Unknown it's super unique. And they don't even produce it much anymore. So mm I like these kind of things, you know, uh as robust as a Rolex is, but they produce a million plus pieces. So mm you know and like in wine, you know, I look for artisanal uh wines. I look for craftsmanship and obviously uh with this watch you have craftsmanship because there's not that much produced
Unknown . Yeah. I mean there's so there's two things I wanna touch on here that kind of make this watch make me think of what you do in in the wine world. One is is this idea of of modesty and and the other is this idea of craftsmanship. So we'll we'll start with the first one. What you do is very service oriented, right? You're with customers, you're with guests a lot of the time. So having something that's that's a bit discreet, right, is probably an advantage for you, right? Like you don't want anything that's going to be distracting for your Yeah, one of them focus on me
Unknown . Not on my wrist. For me, often it goes the other way around. But uh I it's very important. Look in in in a time like where we today where we constantly live with distractions, mostly with the cellphone or social media or emails or text messages where so many channels come in to us and we kommunicate with it you know there's always sometimes something lost uh and I can observe this sometimes you know when people have a lunch or dinner they're more on their cell phones rather than talk to their opponent and what's the what's the point of spending time together? Yeah. No, I totally agree. I mean I've called me old school, but uh I listen connecting with the person and you know, having the conversation is a beautiful
Unknown thing. Yeah, I I completely agree. Um and and to touch on the other point, uh you talk about craftsmanship and that, you know, wine and watches seem like kind of a natural fit together. Um, you know, they're both there's something old school about them, but there's also innovation happening. There's an element of tradition and of history, but also new traditions and new history being written. They're very detail oriented. You can go, you know, kind of as shallow or as deep as you want. Do you see relationships between those two things? You know it's interesting
Unknown because I've done Vivashron Constantan uh a wine watch tasting. Oh okay. And I you know I like to push boundaries. I like to push uh myself also. And I've realized there's a ton of similarities with it, and you can connect the topic. I've done it also with art. Of course, it's a little bit esoteric, it's a little bit out there, but um the success was so big on the first one that they continued this, so I have a quite a relationship uh with I like the idea what uh uh uh what they put out there. So yes, there's a ton. So I was fortunate enough even to go to the factory and so I could see the all the parts and the components and when you deassemble it, how detail oriented it is. I mean there's there's things just the way how they take the 45 degree angle when you turn it around, uh so no sharp edges. Uh it's with wines basically the same thing, you know. You don't want to have sharp edges, you want to have a little bit softness in there, and uh but you still look for complications, so there's a ton of similarities
Unknown , and so when you do a a watch and wine tasting, right? Like what are you looking for when you're pairing watches and wines? What what similarities? Aaron Powell It's often a storyt
Unknown elling. Perfect example, you take like a watch like a geographic, or you take like uh an overseas. Um, you know, it's a traveling watch. So and you connect this, for instance, which wines were famously known for traveling and you come very quickly to Madeira, who traveled to the equator and going over with the West Indian Dutch Company and traveled with that. So there's a story right there. And then of course you see also it showcase immediately the complexity of it. Madeira is super complex. But it's also very grabbing. It's a very grabbing uh wine. And so that that connection you put immediately.
Unknown Great. And do you do you find that when you have, you know, the customers and the guests at something like this, do people kind of pick up on those stories quickly or do you feel that it requires a bit more kind of explanation? You know, at first there's a little hesit
Unknown ation, obviously. I it's not straightforward. Um I've done it with Vasharant content and I think five seminars on that. So I think that's a statement in itself. Yeah, that's that's pretty that's pretty good. Yeah. If they want to keep having you back, it must be working. Yeah, I have done it in Europe also. Um so uh that was a more broader thing. That's when I realized uh that's a possibility. So totally possible. I've done it with R2. Where I had a very critical client from Liberada and inviting himself in into because he couldn't envision that. And he's the type of character where, you know, when God gave out diplomacy he was absent. So I was kind of
Unknown scared at first. Yeah. But then actually he said this is really cool. Yeah I mean you you mentioned that there there are some similarities in terms of the people that we're speaking to, you know, who we speak to and who you speak to. And that's that's something I think is really fascinating about this, the whole sort of luxury world in general, right? Is the clients tend to be extremely knowledgeable. They tend to be extremely discerning. And they sort of have that ability to access anything. And so you have to find new ways to make things special. You have to push yourself to help push them because, you know, having a really great bottle of Chateau de Chem maybe like might be special to a lot of people, but I would imagine to a lot of your clients, like they could have that every evening if they want it. So you need to find something new and something to push them. How how do you think about that, about trying to you know give people new experiences and challenge and push people a little bit?
Unknown You know the beauty of my job uh and especially in the current setup, you know where I work at Le Bernada on the three Michelin star level, but then I have on the other side uh the Aldersum wine bar is I get the entire kind of you know I get from people who just look for it's glass of souvenir blah for exactly that person who looks for the Chateau Echem. And I find this super fascinating because while you have someone who is really on the beginning of its you know wine interest, you go to someone who is very, very advanced. And you have every table is different. Every customer is different, you have the different needs to satisfy. And I find that fascinating because I care for the human aspect and I listen to them and I look where they are. And you know, some people want to stay classic, what they know, and some people say, you know, I don't need you because in if I look for this in this shadow I can because I just opened a wine spectator and can find out of myself. A lot of these people like to do their own research. Um but you actually give me wines which I have never heard of and, I researched and I see how special they are. For instance, if you drink Chateau Ikem and spend that kind of money, try a wine from Egon Müller, who is one of the absolute Riesling Uber stars, especially in the sea uh in the sweet segment. So then we talk really about craftsmanship because if you go to his Trockenberg, his highest level, um he makes hundred liters a year. Wow. Yeah. So talking about craftsmanship and talking about minima Yeah, w
Unknown ow. Yeah. I mean there's there's something interesting too because when you you mentioned already, right, that Rolex makes let's say a million watches a year, um, whereas this this producer makes a hundred liters a year. In addition to this. On average. So so in addition to the scale being different, you're also talking about something that lasts forever versus something that's consumed, right? And that's something that I think is fascinating because we we hear from people all the time that one of the one of the things they like about watches and one of the reasons why they feel comfortable investing in watches is that, you know, I have it, I pass it down to my son or my daughter, they pass it down to their son or daughter, and it's it's essentially something that lasts forever. Whereas you might be able to sell her a great bottle of wine, but at some point you drink it and it's gone. Do you think that that kind of ethereal nature is part of the pleasure for people, or do you think it's kind of a sticking point or or both?
Unknown Well, I raise a question based on your question. Okay. Does really everything last forever? No, not at all. Exactly.. No, nothing Nothing lasts forever. Nothing lasts forever. No. And you know, at the end of the day, we leave everything behind. So very true. You know, but there is a very special point in just researching and finding that bottle you ultimately look for. So your journey starts right there. Just going to that store, buying that special bottle, then you seller it. Most people actually take incredible joy of just going often to the cellar and seeing that bottle over the years which you collected. Some people actually never opened that bottle and there's often also the joy in there. Of course, it stops lasting forever the moment you pull out your wanky. Right. Because then you know the experience starts. But that is actually the journey of it. And that's the beauty of it because you will save that memory, hopefully. Yeah, no, I I think that's yeah. Hope hopefully. Depends how many memories you're making in one night. But yeah. I mean also look, we live in a very fast moving world. Sometimes you know collectors, everyone is very generous, you bring a lot of friends in, and the speed becomes so high. So you really have to be focused, you know, to look at every single wine. Sometimes you know the biggest, the boldest wine is of course creates the most noise, but sometimes the one with the most delicacy is actually the best one.
Unknown You mentioned already that that you kind of divide your time between your wine bar and La Bernadem. And what do you see as the kind of ways that these two things complement one another for you
Unknown ? You know, it's it's interesting. Eric Ripère was at first and Maggie Le Cos, the the owners of Le Bernad, they were of course in the very beginning a little concerned that the wine bar might take customers away from the Le Bernad lounge, which for us we see is casual. What we've learned actually in the process is uh it's actually not at all, because um while the wine bar of course is much more informal, uh much more casual, people still walk into Libernadin, even though we see it as casual. Uh and it is, but it's not in people's minds. So it's interesting, the audience at the wine bar is maybe also a little bit younger. Um Um even though at Lebanvi mi it's a complete mix and actually that's the beautiful thing. So but they communicate with each other ironically. Even though they have nothing
Unknown in common. Right. Yeah, yeah. Have you seen Libernadan evolve over over the years and change? Have you seen the the audience change, the sort of feel, the atmosphere change?
Unknown I mean time is change. Uh and that's a good thing. We just hang on often on, you know, the things we grew up with and we want to hold on to, but time is change. And yes, we evolve all the time. And I think that's a good thing. I mean I I still remember we had to put wine orders in uh via the uh via telephone. No one does that today anymore. Right. Today we we email it in it, that's it. Interesting. And you had to go through a a b almost a telephone uh book through all the wines which were in the market. But it was a nightmare to other I assume it's much easier
Unknown now. Yeah. I mean it's a good thing, you know, available. Have you I mean we I mentioned at the beginning that Eric Rapair is sort of a known watch guy in the in the watch world. Um are there other folks in in the the kind of like New York restaurant scene or the the Somalier scene um who are watch guys who you know of? I mean is this is is a love of watches kind of a common thing in that in that community
Unknown ? Uh I mean I haven't met anyone who doesn't like watches. Yes, I mean look at all the big chefs, they all love watches. Do do you have any idea why? I mean for a man it's very challenging. I mean we don't have jewelry, uh very few, but this is basically the only piece we put on. To me, I look there's there's a beauty in that and at least for me. I can only speak for myself and I like that. Uh but that's as far as I go in terms of jewelry. I don't have anything else on.
Unknown Cool. Well I I wanna make sure we have time to to talk about your book, which I have sitting in front of me and which I've been really enjoying over the last the last couple days. Um it's called Wine Simple. Uh it came out at the end of last year, correct? That's correct, yeah. Um and it's I can I can honestly say it is unlike any other book I've read about wine. Um it's uh it's super accessible. It's really easy to kind of like you can pick up and flip through, you know, five to ten pages when you have a few minutes and then put it down and pick it back up later. Um what was kind of the the whole idea behind this book?
Unknown I mean the book is out now since a little bit more than two months. Okay. And And the idea of putting wine simple together is it came at the wine bar but also at Libernard. Look, as you can hear, my accent does not come from Brooklyn, nor from New Jersey. It does it? No? Not quite. But um I don't speak English in that part. So that's why I what was very important and Christine Mulke um who wrote the book with me was obviously a crucial part to make this book first of all sound in English and secondly take all the altruisms out. There's plenty. And but um joking aside, no look I work on a daily base uh on the floor and I work with people. And I constantly see how people often are uncomfortable and intimidated about just ordering a glass of wine. And I'm on the other side of that spectrum, and I wanted to help these victims, right? Because it doesn't have to be so difficult, uh, and uh it should be fun. Of course, I mean, if you uh get someone onto a watch and start showing him right away at uh Tobio. Uh the disconnect might be right there. But that's not the idea. And wine simple is something where you know I take people, I kind of and I take the topic wine and I bring him on a little bit of a personal journey. I went through. And trust me, wine uh wine is still intimidating for me, and I'm doing this now for 28 years. That's normal, but um, that's also the evolution we talked about before. But wine simple is also one thing where it grabs you and it gives you, goes on a little journey with you, and it breaks it out down in sound bites. That's actually Janis Robinson from um from the Financial Times reviewed it last week. And she actually put this down. It's it's unlike a different book because I'm not a writer. I spend twenty minutes on a desk on average a day. Uh I'm on the floor. And that's why I think different, and I see the fears what people have. And that's what I put in. That's why it's different. That's why also in chapter two, I wrote uh we had the chapter in there saying, you know, why do we need another book? Yeah. Yeah, because it's uh it's not sometimes from from a professional writing for another professional. That's not the idea here. I wanted to talk to a lot of people
Unknown . Yeah, what do you what do you think are maybe like two or three things that you think people find most intimidating about wine? Like when you're dealing with customers at at lunch who want a glass or you know a, couple of folks ordering a bottle at dinner. What what are the things that people seem most kind of like anxious and concerned about
Unknown ? Oh, price obviously. That's for everyone uh um kind of uh intimidation because if you're not comfortable with wine and if you open a wine list like at the Le Bernard with fifty pages, uh Murphy's love will drive you to the Roman de Conte page uh which starts with a couple thousand dollars, right? So that's Murphy's law. Uh but it doesn't have to be like that. So that's the one part. The other part is read a tasting note. Most people read tasting notes whether they read in the New York Times or wine spectator or with all kinds of Venus media. Sometimes these tasting notes, you know, when I talk like for instance, the wine smells like gooseberries, maybe have toasted almonds. That's very hard for people to grasp. So that's intimidating because I can't smell that. Most people can't tell you how a strawberry smells. And again, there is also a surprising a fact for me in that because that's ex I come back to the conversation piece we had before. Look, we eat and put food after now self while we checking social media, which is of course a very important thing, don't get me wrong. However, you know, this is such an important part uh so we feed ourselves. Mm-hmm. And we feed so we can have an output in terms of work, but we don't pay really pay attention. What we put in ourselves. So it's funny because everyone knows how a strawberry smells. We just cannot locate it.
Unknown That's really interesting. I hadn't thought about that. The idea that like being distracted, we don't we don't think about these things anymore. Do you do do you think that has changed? Do you think maybe twenty, thirty years ago it would have been easier maybe to to get people to pick up on those things? Or do you think there would have just been other distractions
Unknown ? Uh that's a good possibility. I mean look we love live right now, everyone becomes a little bit more health conscious too. Mm-hmm. We paying more attention. Look how many diets just out there. Yeah. Um fascinating. That wasn't thirty years ago. So yes, we become more conscious, but I think that becomes and food is also on a much different level where it was thirty years ago. Uh look at the cuisines we run right now, and look how many talented chefs and restaurants are just here in New York City, let alone the United States. So, but even there, the funny that people have difficulties describing the flavor uh of a strawberry is ironic. Yeah, that's crazy. But to me, when I eat, I smell pretty much on anything and I pay attention to it. Also, when I go hiking, you smell. If you walk by rosemary, you can smell. If you walk by fresh cut grass, you can smell that. It's just for our brain to associate that with.
Unknown What what do you find has changed most about people's wine tastes over the
Unknown last couple of years? Uh I think Americans uh discovered the greatness in a lifestyle with wine. It becomes a cultural component, uh it becomes a lifestyle component. And they caught up on that big time. Um, which is great to see because um people were never as thirsty about wine as today they are. And some of them start slowly collecting, some of them uh start rapidly, it's really impressive to see. And it's very easy to get to knowledge. You do it on your smartphone. Yeah. Super simple. You follow people on Instagram. Again, it can be very, very quick. Today you just have to pay maybe more attention to filter the information. Back in the day, you know, when I started reading about wine, you had to buy books. Right. Yeah. Wh
Unknown ich is funny because now you have a book. Yeah. I uh one of the things I I really like about Wine Simple isn't just the information itself, but it's the way it's presented. Um, the illustrations, the way things are broken out into charts and maps. I wonder how how you thought about not just making sure that people who read the book would would get the information they needed, but would also get some context and also maybe have fun reading it. Like the book feels fun. It feels lighthearted, um, which I think is is a big part of maybe making this more accessible.
Unknown The book is me, in a sense. It's an expression. Look, when you try to get onto something and have to learn or study something, the moment you have fun with the topic, whatever that is, you start diving in. It becomes easy. It's like with cleaning. If something is difficult to clean, you don't want to clean. If something is easy to clean, it's a no-brainer. It's studying the same thing. And that actually was the idea. So you know, to make this exciting, to make this fun, to give this little sound bites, you can have it on as a coffee table book within 10 seconds. You can take something from it, but if you want to spend more time by all means. That's the idea and keep this entertaining. I give personal stories. I give also opinions. So because often people are scared to form their own opinion. You know, people always say I don't know much about wine, but I do know what I like. And I said that's actually significant. So
Unknown that's quite a milestone. Wha what do you think the obstacles are to people forming their own their own opinions and own taste? Because something we talk about here all the time is that Instagram and and sort of the new generation of of you know, kind of the way people talk about watches and share watches creates a uniformity of taste. Everybody thinks there are, you know, these 10 watches that everyone's supposed to like and everything else is kind of boring or they should let it go. Do you find the same thing happens in wine where there's there's certain things people think they're supposed to love and certain things people think they're supposed to not love? Or is it is it kind of a different dynamic? Aaron Powell No
Unknown , there's a certain mainstream with no question. I mean, most consumers like souvenir blog. And you know, because it's straightforward, it's there's a lot of taste. For someone who starts collecting, he probably gets away from that. Um they can be also sometimes a little industrial in production. But again, what is right and what is wrong? You I'm not here to determine that. Look, you had a certain stage in your life. If you want to continue that, that's by all means, it's all good. If you want to evolve, you know, you will discover very quickly, you know, there's a much bigger world out there to dive in. And again, it's very easy to do today. You just see, okay, if you like um watch X. In in with most internet research you do today you can have this algorithm. Yeah, yeah. Right? Right. So it pitches it gives immediately uh you know, n if you like what if you like this watch, you might like that. And if you like this and this is endless uh red drive. So eventually you get into it. You just have to spend time onto it. And that's with wine exactly the same. Um I push sometimes, you know, the people I know for for a little while. I push their palates. You cannot drink every day, you know, Roma Niconte. I mean it's great as it is, but your palate might get bored even though it's one of the greatest ones. So why don't you try this and why don't you try that? And like that also you create a library. And you create a collection of data in your mem in your mind. And but also a collection of experiences which is incredibly important
Unknown . This week's episode is brought to you by the Hodinky Shop. The Hodinky Shop was created by Watchlovers for watch lovers. It started way back in 2012 with a handful of watch straps and travel pouches, and it's grown to include dozens of strap options, tons of travel accessories, the best watchbooks and magazines, outstanding vintage watches, and some of the most desirable modern watches on the market today. It's truly a full service destination for anyone interested in watches. In addition to stocking the products you want, the Hodinki Shop is committed to making the discovery and buying process itself as fun and convenient as it can be. You can browse and shop anywhere in the world directly on your computer, tablet, or smartphone, and the incredible photographs ensure you get a vivid, accurate look at whatever you're considering. It doesn't stop there though. Once you've ordered a watch, you can count on complimentary, expedited shipping to get it to you as quickly as overnight. An extra year of warranty is included at no additional charge, and all of your paperwork is stored digitally so you don't have to sweat losing those precious papers. Importantly, when it comes to modern watches, the Hodinki Shop is an official authorized retailer for all brands it carries. This means you're guaranteed to be getting a brand new, fully authentic watch with its full warranty. There's no funny business at all. The experience is truly best in class from top to bottom, and it's what the Hodinki Shop thinks 21st century luxury is all about. To learn more and to take a look at the full range of watches, accessories, and more, visit shop.hodinky.com. Alright, let's get back to the show. I wonder if if I can I can ask you to give give listeners a few suggestions here. So, you know, maybe can can you pick maybe three or four styles of wine that are things you you see as common, things people order and drink all the time, and then maybe offer a kind of alternative take, something else people should try? I could do that, but then you don't buy the book
Unknown because that's fair. That's very, very fair. I actually have a page allocated to that. Oh perfect. And that's the idea. Look, if you like uh Pinot Noir, try this variety and if you like this variety try that variety so we hand that in and that makes this book so unique and actually Jansis pointed that out um that this makes it so accessible. Because sometimes, you know, look, if I don't want to spend the money on Burgundy, I don't necessarily have to go there. So you can s you know, um spend that money into Santa Barbara County, Pinot Noir Chardonnay, which offers a great amount of value right now. But you know, you have to get away from the label thinking and really start looking what do I like? Yeah
Unknown . Have you have you found I mean you mentioned that it's there's been a cultural change in the US and incorporating wine into culture, but have you noticed that that palates are changing or you mentioned you know diets, things like natural wines. Are are these sort of things that you think will be long term shifts in the in the market? Or do you think these are sort of fads, things that will come and go and there will be new things kind of year after ye
Unknown ar? Um no, I think I mean look, uh natural wine is a very divisive topic. Um and it becomes almost tribal that thinking, you know, the natural wines versus the conventional wines. I've personally seen this now for a couple years, and I've seen this very strong coming. And I said this recently in an interview where we had a panel discussion. This is wine. If you bring ten random people to a bar, give them a glass of wine, and given ten minutes, and they start talking with each other. This tribal thinking has to stop. We have to build a bridge. Because look, if one loves oysters, the other one doesn't. Who is right and who is wrong? It's just where you currently are, what you enjoy, you know, what you enjoy is subjective. It's the same with watches. One says, listen, uh this Rolex is the greatest watch uh because it works for me just perfectly. You know, I can you I can have it on a suit, I just can't have it with a pair of jeans. It's all good. The other one says I would never wear that because for me, Pat Echo Washeron, this is much more exclusive, da da da. Again, this is endless. Yeah. Um you have to accept that and you have to be comfortable with it. And we evolve with it and that's good. Yeah, yeah, I think But trends come and go. I don't think with to answer your question completely is as we become more health conscious, um we get maybe on the topic natural wine a little bit more, but natural wine can be really extreme in terms of flavors. It's often a little bit ill-informed because people think they uh they're allergic to sulfites, and sulfites is a bad thing, even though just if you order a side of French fries. There's much more sulfide in than an average bottle of wine. So every fermentation by default produces uh sulfide as a bypro byproduct. So I think look, the truth uh is somewhere in the middle. It's not in one extreme or the other, it's somewhere in the middle. And I think with its conventional wines, it pushes them also to work with less uh additives and less uh uh chemicals. And with comve uh I think with natural wine, I think there's also a middle way
Unknown . And that's good. Do you find you I mean you work with customers all day, and I wonder have have you started to get to a point where you know when someone walks in you can look at the watch on the wrist or how they're dressed or kind of how they carry themselves and say like I before even saying a word to anybody, like, I think this person should order
Unknown this would lead to a very beginners kind of thing because you know in today's world I think experience is one of the most combined with knowledge is the most important thing you have. Um, just having the knowledge is one thing theoretical, but putting this out with experience, you learn immediately. It would the cardinal sin in New York. You never know who is in front of you, and you certainly do not know where these people are in two years. So I have don't have the liberty to judge. Do I look at certain components, 100%. I had, for instance, a client in front of me a couple of years ago. Now we became actually quite good friends, who said to me, you know, I'm just, yeah, I'm not like here like everybody here at Le Bernadette in the dining room. I'm just a regular guy from a suburban area. So I barely can afford uh a meal here and I said, I said, but so can you recommend me a wine for regular civilians? And he was rather provocative with that. And I said, Sir, I love the area where you're from, because I live also in the suburbs in Brooklyn. And I said but in Brooklyn not many people we are FP shore so you know but I said this with a smiley though and he started laughing out so loud. That's a that's a good one. With a smiley can do so many things and with a little sense of humor you can do so many things, right? We don't have to be so uh so stiff about it. And yes, of course, I read this ponyta, but this is how I utilize it
Unknown . So you're always I would I would imagine you always have to be kind of keyed into those little details, not just the details about the wines you're serving, but the details about the people you're serving. For me,
Unknown it's mainly the person who's in front of me. Yeah. I I am listening. Because look, um, someone comes with a perfectly tailored suit, someone comes with uh and so on and so on. You can add this on. They just maybe want to have a whiskey. Or the person drinks a beer. You completely misjudged. Yeah. Right. I think the 10 seconds I talked to him are much more important. What is he looking for? Where is he with his current knowledge base? And also what does he want to drink? Of course I look at all the other components. There's no question about it. But again, that's where the experience comes in. For me, the person who is in front of you is the important part. As a somelee, you have to listen and cater. It's as simple as that. Sometimes the wine knowledge is actually secondary.
Unknown Yeah, you said that you can do a lot with a smile, and I think that's that's an important thing here. It's something we try to do with watches all the time, and and it seems like something you try to do with wine, is making these things fun. Like at the end of the day, it's just wine, it's just watches. Like if you're not enjoying it and it doesn't bring joy to your life, then it sort of in in our perspective at least, kind of loses a lot of its value. And I wonder how you encourage people to both kind of learn and and enjoy the scholarship, but also just like enjoy the experience of having a nice glass of wine in front of you. I me
Unknown an I'm very fortunate, look, uh I had my success in my career and still have it. And it's a beautiful thing. But that of course comes a little you become a little more relaxed rather than tense that you have to still haunt it. The quick key question in life is: look, what is life really important about? That you're happy. Money can buy you to this to a degree, but 100% happiness comes from much more. So you have only one life, it's anyway that short. So you want to enjoy yourself, and uh it's all meant to be anyway. So look, uh, Murphy's law applies to you. The more energy I give to something bad happening this morning, the more more I will get it. So I just shove this aside and you know, try to approach this from um from a funny thing. And I learned this from Eric actually. Something happened, and he starts laughing about it and kind of dissolves the situation in his own way. And but coming on to wine, it's the same thing. Look, we st we three have a glass of wine right now. We start laughing at one point because it's you know life is fun and you should keep it fun. And we watch it's the same thing. It's you want to hang out with people who stimulate you and you learn something from them. So should we crack a bottle? Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's uh it's what it's almost eleven o'clock in the morning. We could we could get going. There's the big difference. People always say, you know, because I start tasting wine typically at ten o'clock, uh eleven o'clock in the morning. And of course people say, You drink at ten o'clock in the morning? No, I said, No, no, no. There's a d huge difference between tasting and drinking. When we taste, we spit. Because the moment you start absorbing alcohol, you cannot judge critically anymore. Because what I like is one thing, but uh you know have to cater to a broad audience. Um and I had this once in a seminar I gave I had this uh lovely woman asks telling me you have the best job in the world. And I said to her, um while I agree with you, what do you mean with that? She said, You can you can buy all the wines uh you like. And I said, hmm. shock here right now because do you know how many wines I buy I personally dislike? Because if, for instance, I give you a perfect example, I do not like creamy buttery chardonnay. That's not my cup of tea. But I buy them. Um I just taste and see a taste analytical to see whether they're technically correct made and they fit. Because what I'm gonna tell that person who likes that, it's not good. I I'm not a dictator, dictatorships typically didn't work out so well. True. Right? And no, but it's the same thing, or you have someone who drinks a specific uh broader marketed champagne. Simple as that. You wanna tell them you have to go to a grower champagne because this is rubbish? No. It's not uh let him drink, m make him comfortable to you, uh, make him trust you, and then you turn them. It's it's a very sim it's a progress, and we have to accept that. Look, I started also, you know, I started with a swatch. Now look, the swatch was the most precise watch I've ever owned. My swatch is definitely the most precise watch I've ever done. You hate it or love it, but this is just a reality. No mechanical watch is precise. And And but why do people buy a a not precise watch? I mean there's the contradiction in its own. Yeah. It's uh because it's fun. Yeah, it's fun, it's beautiful, it's it's it's enjoyable for other reasons. Every Apple Watch is more accurate. Yeah. I see this actually in watch journalists too now, Apple Watches, and I can act I can pull it up. There's many people in this office who own and wear them. Yeah, so to me I don't owe them because it would drive me crazy getting text messages on my wrist. I'm sure yeah. And but it's I like the beauty of the craftsmanship, you know, and I like the beauty of the history and I like the beauty of that story which comes with it. And again, as a man we we are only a specific amount of jewelry. Ye
Unknown ah. Well I wanna I wanna wrap up. Uh we're gonna do we're gonna bring back something we call the the Hodinky questionnaire, the Hodinky Radio Questionnaire. So it's a couple of sort of quick fire questions. Um you can just give me the the first answer off the off the top of your head. So the the first question is what's a watch that's caught your eye recently? Oh, I have constantly one. There's always one.
Unknown Um I love the lange and Sönner the Saxonia, which came out. Yeah. Um probably my ultimate timepiece would be the data graph. Yeah. Oof. Because I'm not sure what's more beautiful, the back or the front.
Unknown Completely agree. Yeah. Perfect. What's the best place you've traveled in the last year? Um Portugal.
Unknown Portugal. Yeah. Uh I lived in Europe. I grew up there. Never dawned on me to go to Portugal. It was amazing. Great. Yeah. Um anywhere specific in Portugal? Uh Lisbon. And then we went down to Comporta. Okay. Which is kind of the Hamptons of Portugal
Unknown . Sounds good to me. What's the best piece of advice you've ever been given and who gave it to you? Who
Unknown you know I work the greatness in New York is you encountered the smartest and the best people from all of their fields. So I have a very open mind to that. And whether they're from your industry or not at all, you I encounter on a daily base the smartest and the best people within their fields. So I listen to that daily. And I couldn't give you one because I collect them literally. Perfe
Unknown ct. What's your guilty pleasure? Oh chocolate. Yeah. Ter
Unknown rible. What's uh what's your what's your chocolate of choice? You know, I'm not as particular there. Um I like milk chocolate. Um but lately I've got to maison the chocolat and get to the truffles. Okay. And yeah. There's no stopping, sadly
Unknown . Perfect. And uh we'll do we'll do a special question for you for the last one. Um it's your last meal. What are you eating and what are you drinking with it Hoy, hopefully this is far away
Unknown . My last meal. Um I probably will take a champagne. Yeah. Uh from a smaller grower. Um probably a Charton Tae, which is uh he's a true artisanal uh champagne producer, probably will pick his Lebar vineyard from with the grape Pinot Noir. And the greatness on champagne is it's one of the most food-friendly wines you can pair it with. You can open this in the late morning. Uh you can open this late night. Champagne will always work. And yeah. And what are you eating with that champagne? What do I eat with that? Um Um probably um a specific Langostin dish Aroque Paramade uh with uh mush salad, uh white balsamic vinaigrette and a little shav uh foie gras. I know it's guilty, but uh last meal, your last it was
Unknown one of these magical dishes. Perfect. Awesome. Well thank you so much for being here. And um we're gonna link up wine simple so people can go order copies for themselves. Comes highly, highly recommended. And uh yeah, hope to see you at the wine bar at La Brennan Dance soon. Well yeah, please let me know when you come. Awesome, we'll do. Thank you for having me. Up next, we have Jack's conversation with Grand Seiko designer Nobuhiro Kosugi
Unknown . So Mr. Kosugi, uh welcome. Thank you for joining us uh for this episode of Hodinki Radio. Uh we've all traveled a very, very long way to uh get here, and uh you folks have come here uh in the face of some really terrible weather. Um So thank you again. And I think I'd like to start by asking you to just uh sort of introduce yourselves to our listeners. Uh tell us a little bit about yourself and how you came to be uh at Seiko and Grand Seiko.
Unknown I joined uh the watch industry in it was in nineteen seventy-three. And uh it wasn't in Seiko, it was a different maker, but uh specifically uh I was a case designer. After uh leaving that company, for 10 years I was a freelance designer and had worked with uh Seiko during the 10 years of freelance. And after 10 years, in about uh 1993, uh I joined uh Seiko Instruments as a designer and uh worked closely with uh uh sports designs as well as uh with watches uh that required uh high functionality and uh practicality of daily use. It wasn't until nineteen ninety five though when I started to be in charge of uh the Grand Seiko design. Although we might talk about this later in terms of the 44 GS. I had experience or uh knew about the 44 GS before joining Seiko at the previous company where I was where I was a case designer. And the reason why I heard of 44GS was because I was told at the previous company that the 44GS was a case design that we should not follow and we should not learn from. And the reason was was because the case design was uh too multi-dimensional. Um the balance between uh the surfaces were uh at the standard of the time, not good. And it was too difficult for anyone to manufacture and produce. And the thinking behind that was that an industrial product or watch uh should not be made to be so difficult to manufacture. So I was told uh when I joined the watch industry that that was a design uh that we should not be following. And uh in 2014, when the reinterpretation model of uh the 44 GS came out, uh I was in charge of its design. And I had asked my team, uh, are you sure? Do you really want to design it based on the 44 GS. And uh by 2014, of course, the skill of of manufacturing of the factories uh was more developed than uh back in the 70s when I was told that it was not a great design. Because the skill had improved and uh the watchmaker's ability and skill had also improved uh dramatically uh it was possible to uh reinterpret the 44 GS and and produce a new watch in 2014. And by skill, I like to mention uh especially uh the skill of polishing no by the craftsman
Unknown uh I was gonna ask this a little bit later, but now seems a natural time to do it since we're already discussing 44 GS. Uh I'm very curious. You mentioned differences between the uh reintroduction and the uh the original model. Can you tell us how the design has evolved over the years? What are the similarities and differences uh between the original 44GS case and uh
Unknown Well for example uh if I can mention a few points in terms of uh the glass we used uh Sapphire for the reintroduction version whereas uh in the previous it was uh more a box shape uh plastic glass so that was one uh change and another uh the level of water resistance for example, uh changed and the quality in that sense has improved dramatically. So one similarity I like to mention is uh found in the polishing of the case for the original 44 GS and the reintroduction of the 44 G S. And by that um the way to polish the case, um only uh the skilled craftsmen who have that technique can polish it in a way that is required for the reintroduction. Therefore, uh it was not possible to n uh ask new craftsmen to polish the cases. Uh we had to have the experienced craftsmen and watchmakers to be involved in the creation process. Even at the level of tools, for example, the tool used to attached the case when polishing. These were the same tools that were used uh when the forty four GS was first released. Therefore the craftsman had to be able to use these tools well in order to produce the reintroduction. And when thinking about how some parts of the design has changed or evolved, we wanted to give it a more modern look. And one thing we did was uh the size of the case uh we made a bit thicker. We thought that would give a more modern appeal to the watch. Um although very subtle, but uh this was one point that uh we carefully considered.
Unknown The 44 GS has obviously been a very influential and very important model in recent years uh for Grand Seiko. Uh I'm curious to know what some of his uh favorite uh models are of the new uh generation of Grand Seco watches, uh both uh the 44 GS cases and not uh which ones does he think are are are especially um uh success
Unknown ful. interpretation of the 44 GS is uh a def definite uh one of the favorite of mine and the reason why is uh because uh what that design and the watch stands for. Um the 44 GS uh when introduced in 1967 established the Grand Seco style. And for that uh it it remains very important. And by reingintroduc it in a modern style is a way for us to value this particular style that was established in 1967. So that is why I to me it is one of my favorite.
Unknown One of the things that is very, very noticeable about all Grand Seiko watches, both 44 GS and others, is that uh how light uh is is h how light is part of the composition. Um something I'm very curious about is when you are designing a watch, uh what role do do you what role does light play for you specifically in uh thinking about the design and how uh how the how reflexes, how light and dark surfaces work uh work together, how they interact with each other?
Unknown So in terms of uh applying the idea of light and shadow in our Grand Seco design, um it is definitely an important part of what we call a grammar of our design. Um light and shadow uh perhaps could be a concept that uh might be uniquely Japanese, or to say the Japanese have an appreciation towards the idea of light and shadow, uh both are appreciated equally. For example, if you look at traditional Japanese furniture, you will see the the use and the play of light and shadow. And even in shadow uh we can see or uh interpret a a gradation of colors uh or gradation of the shadow and giving it a dimensional look. So why do we incorporate this idea into the watch design? To capture the subtle reflections of the light and shadow and to see that in the hour markers or the hands of the watch actually increases the legibility, which is very important for Grand Seiko. Therefore, this Japanese sense or appreciation of light and shadow actually directly links to the legibility of the Grand Seko watch, uh which is very important. And this is why we incorporate this idea of light and shadow in our design
Unknown So if I understand his uh if I just Mr. Kasugi, if I understand your answer correctly, um light and shadow as design elements, they don't exist in isolation. It's important that they serve functionality as well. And this is very much a part of the uh the ethos of Grand Seiko
Unknown . I believe your understanding is absolutely correct. And for uh Grand Seiko, uh of course precision is one uh extremely important factor. And another, as we have been talking about, is uh uh legibility. Uh for example, we also value the beauty it found in the finish of the Grand Seiko. Uh to achieve a distortion free finish throughout the watch. All of these lead directly to legibility. So the wearer can really feel that they can see the time. This is why it is very important for Grand Seiko.
Unknown This was not a question that I had originally intended to ask, but it just occurred to me, and I'm I I was wondering, Mr. Kasugi, if we could talk about it just a little bit. Um there are three uh technical pillars for Grand Seiko. There's a spring drive, there's Grand Seiko mechanical, and there's uh 9F quartz. And one thing I'm quite curious about is when you're designing a watch, uh how much does that aspect play into the design? Do you think differently when you're designing a mechanical watch versus spring drive versus 9F quartz? And if so, what are the differences for you
Unknown ? So about your question, uh to be honest, uh I have never really considered a difference in design uh based on the three different uh types of movements that we have. When the 44 GS came out it was a mechanical watch historically, uh a mechanical movement. Uh but now uh this uh design uh style and philosophy is uh as you know applied So um yes uh in response uh is there a difference in design for the three movements it's not really
Unknown We were talking earlier about uh about finishing and about the process of finishing the case, the polishing process. And uh one term that we hear a lot uh is uh zeratsu polishing. And uh I'd like to hear from uh I'd like to hear from you Mr. Kusugi uh what what is is what is Zeratsu polishing exactly? What makes polishing Zeratsu polishing
Unknown ? So about Zaratsu polishing, uh I believe that uh it was uh from a Swiss company, the Salatz company, uh uh which we introduced this machinery and this polishing and then it was introduced in Japan in the nineteen fifties. Uh using uh this machinery and technique and sort of fine-tuning it to a more uh uh way a to fit the Japanese craftsman, uh we have been applying this uh the machinery and the technique of polishing uh to create this uh beautiful and distortion-free uh finishing that we are proud of for the grand sake
Unknown . I don't speak Japanese as you know, Mr. Kusugi, but I heard you use the word uh shokunin. Uh can you explain what that means in the context of uh creating Grand Seiko watches and the craftsmanship that goes into them?
Unknown So in terms of uh shoguning uh in my previous uh reply for a different question, uh uh I mentioned that uh the the level of manufacturing in the factories of watch production increased over the years, which allowed the modern reinterpretation of 44 GS to be possible. What happened over the years as the manufacturing level went up was that the level of the shokuning or the craftsman uh went down. And the only Shokuning or Craftsmen that remained uh were limited. And out of the remaining uh craftsmen, I believe that uh the craftsmen who were in charge of polishing were the highest uh level in skill. In terms of polishing, there have been many considerations to uh allow machinery to be more involved uh to make up for the fewer craftsmen there are. But uh I believe that the fact that the case has been polished by the hands of people or the hands of the craftsmen is much more valuable than uh a watch that has been uh finished or polished by machine. Uh and I feel very strongly about this, and I think that this hand finished value is very important in Grand Seiko. So whenever we uh plan a new product or a new watch for Grand Seiko, I I make sure that I meet the Shokunin and the craftsman directly. And what I do is I bring along my sketches and illustrations of the new design and uh hear from them. You know, what do you think would be easy to make? What's difficult? Do you want to do this? Do you not want to do this? And there are many uh designs where the shokuni would say, uh this looks too difficult, it's too challenging. This is this would be the design that I do not want to make. Um I try very hard that the shokuni say exactly that. And why I do this is because uh as a designer I also want to raise the level of the shokuning and the craftsman. But I also know that a real shokuni is always up for the challenge. So this is why I I make it uh to design something that is one step uh challenging and something that they can uh challenge themselves
Unknown . Uh last question. We were speaking just now of challenges and of challenging the shokan and of challenging the craftsmen to you as a designer what is the what is what what is the biggest challenge you've ever faced as a watch designer and what are some of the challenges that you look forward to facing in the future e mano de daí design
Unknown os To begin I I'd like to say that uh the skill necessary for the designer is becoming increasingly difficult over the last uh few uh years and what is expected of a designer is uh ha the bar has been raised. And what I mean by that is most of the designs these days are made by computer graphics, are generated by computer graphics, which I find tremendously difficult to do. And there are many young designers who join uh the company who have a lot of skill with this in computer graphics. Working with them alone gives me great stimulation. What I try to do is I teach I try to teach the young designers the sense sensitivity of design and from the young designers I learn about computer graphics. I think uh combining the two of uh the young designers new skills and my experience uh with designing we can create a brand new watch design
Unknown . Thank you so much for joining us on the show, Mr. Kasugi. It was really, really great to be able to talk to you and to hear directly from the person responsible for so many of the beautiful designs that I've experienced from Grand Sacre over the years. So thank you very much
Unknown . This week's episode was recorded at Hodinki HQ in New York City and was produced and edited by Grayson Corjonen. Please remember to subscribe and rate the show, it really does make a difference for us. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next week.