Eric Wind And Going Deep With Jack¶
Published on Mon, 27 Jan 2020 11:00:20 +0000
Let's get nerdy, everyone.
Synopsis¶
In this episode of Hodinky Radio, host Stephen Pulvirent sits down with Jack Forster for an in-depth exploration of two fascinating watch-related topics. First, they discuss Jack's comprehensive article on the mainspring, an often-overlooked component with over 500 years of metallurgical and craftsmanship history. Jack explains how producing high-quality mainsprings was once a specialized artisanal skill requiring empirical knowledge of steel tempering, quenching, and crystal structure—all before modern scientific understanding existed. The conversation reveals how this humble component represents centuries of accumulated knowledge and the transition from craft to industrial production.
The discussion then shifts to the controversial topic of fauxtina—the artificial aging of watch components, particularly luminous material, to mimic vintage aesthetics. Jack traces the phenomenon back to approximately 2008 and reflects on how his own views have evolved from initial hostility to acceptance, particularly when done subtly. Both Jack and Stephen discuss the aesthetic merits of toned-down lume versus stark white-on-black contrasts, and consider whether the practice represents authentic homage or disingenuous fakery. They explore how consistency between external design and internal mechanics matters, citing examples like the Brigade Type 20 and Omega Speedmaster Caliber 321.
In the second half, Stephen and Ben Clymer interview Eric Wind, vintage watch dealer and early Hodinky contributor. Eric shares his journey from watch enthusiast to Christie's specialist to independent dealer, discussing the challenges of the auction world including non-payment, lengthy consignment periods, and thin margins. The three discuss the ongoing debate between dial quality versus case condition in vintage collecting, the ethics and prevalence of restoration and reluming, and the transparency issues plaguing the vintage market. Eric concludes with recommendations for underappreciated watches including Nicar chronographs, Titus Calypso dive watches, and Tudor Rangers, offering collectors alternatives to the current hype-driven market focused on Nautilus and Daytona models.
Links¶
Transcript¶
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| Unknown | My first reaction to Fotina when it started coming out was incredibly negative. I don't remember the watch, but I remember my reaction. You know, the first time I saw it, I thought to myself, what the hell is this nonsense? What is this airsatz phony baloney bullshit. How many times a day shot, insincere, laughably pathetic attempt to steal fire from genuinely vintage watches is this? How many times a day do you think what is this nonsense? You know, if if if you're a person uh with a sort of uh naturally generally aggrieved posture towards life, watches are a great thing to get into because there's always something there's always something to be upset about. |
| Unknown | Hey everybody, I'm your host Stephen Polverant and this is Hodinki Radio. There is nobody better around Hodinki HQ if you want to go for a deep dive into something, than Mr. Jack Forrester. And recently he ran two stories on the site that I wanted to bring him into the studio to talk a little bit about. So one is an ode to the main spring, this often forgotten part of watchmaking, and Jack somehow makes this tiny little piece of metal tell a 500-year plus story. Then we go to something more aesthetically focused, an article about Fotina and the faux aging of watches. This is a hot topic. People have lots of opinions. There were almost 200 comments on the story at the time we recorded this. Uh, and Jack sheds a little bit of light and gives a little bit of context to this thing that everyone seems to have an opinion about. After that, Ben and I sit down with Eric Wind, who you might know as the proprietor and founder of Wind Vintage, but he's actually a longtime friend and an hodinky OG. He was one of our earliest contributors, and the three of us sit around and talk about all manner of things vintage watches. We talk about Eric's time in the auction world, we talk about how the market's been changing over the last decade, and Eric even offers a couple of tips into watches that you should be looking at right now. Without further ado, let's get into it. This week's episode is brought to you by the Hodinky Shop. Stay tuned later in the show to learn more about how the Hodinky Shop is changing the watch buying game. For more, visit shop.hodinky.com |
| Unknown | . There is no such thing as roomtown. There's no such thing as roomton. Not in this dump. |
| Unknown | There's no such thing as roomtone. Uh testing one, two, three, four. Hey Jack, how's it going? Going great. It's Friday morning, man. It is. It's uh we're in our toasty library here in a chilly New York City. Yep. Talking about two long form stories you wrote. Yes. Which are really, in my opinion, the best kind of Jack Forster stories. I don't seem to be able to write any other kind, so you know. That is very true. As someone who has been editing you for years, that is very, very true.. Yeah Um so we got two two stories here and you know what they share in common is they're both deep dives, but otherwise they're they're pretty pretty different, I would say. Uh one is very technical and one is much more uh aesthetic and design oriented. So I figure we'll start with the technical stuff and then we'll end up in the design stuff. That sound good to you? Yeah, sure. All right. So story one, in dept |
| Unknown | h, consider the main spring. Yeah, so um I had some time off in December. Uh the actual uh actually it was the first sort of real long vacation that I've uh taken since starting at Hodinki, which was uh uh uh I I was a little antsy at first, but uh it was it was actually nice to unplug for a bit. But I had time to think some things over and to spend some time with the family and uh I had several conversations with my older son about an idea that he had for a sort of um uh historical uh fantasy s fiction, science fiction kind of kind of story. And his his idea was what would have happened if the Roman Empire and the Chinese Empire had actually both undergone different kinds of industrial revolutions and had actually met on the field of battle at some point. And this led to several even longer conversations between the two of us about, you know, why it was that these industrial revolutions actually hadn't happened and what would be necessary in order for them to happen. And one of the things that we, you know, sort of discovered was that um, you know, for a real industrial revolution you need to be able to produce large quantities of high grade steel. And that, uh by a very uh roundabout route, led me led me to start uh thinking about one of the least thought about and least appreciated parts of of a watch, which is the main spring. So the cool thing about mainsprings is that uh if you don't have a spiral spring to drive uh the clockwork mechanism, you basically can't have watches. The very first timepieces, uh the very first clocks were basically weight driven. So the way a weight driven clock works is you basically take something heavy, it can be a rock, it can be a chunk of pig iron, it can be, you know, a basket full of bricks or you know, it can be um you know a hoodinky editor. You wind the rope around the hub of a gear wheel and then you set up a gear train that has the weight at one end and the escape and the escapement at the other, the escapement regulates how fast the weight falls, how fast the weight can fall. You know, and then you basically got a clock. You s you just bas you just stick a hand on whichever wheel turns, you know, twice a day or once a day and uh that's the hour hand and that's the simplest kind of clock that you can have. But that obviously does not work uh for a portable timepiece. So for a portable timepiece, you need an escapement that does not uh that is not a pendulum and you need a power source that is not a falling weight. So the escapement part, you know that, was kind of sorted out, you know, by the fifteen hundreds verge escapement, you know, by modern standards not a very good escapement, but uh you know, it works. Uh but spiral springs were tougher nut to crack because a main spring has to do something uh which is really challenging metallurgically speaking. It has to be able you have to be able to wind it up tightly, and then it has to be able to discharge its force over whatever the running time of the watch is, twenty-four hours, two days, three days, um or, what have you. And it has to be able to do that over and over and over and over again uh without breaking. And the thing about uh steels and other a lot of other materials is that if you uh flex them uh often enough you, start to get a phenomenon called metal fatigue. And uh this involves um you know basically slippages in the crystalline structure of the material which eventually form cracks large enough to fail under st under stress. And you know a main spring stores a lot of energy. So breaking, you know, m when main springs break, it k is potentially a catastrophe for the watcher for the clock because a lot of energy is being discharged all at once. Being able to make these things, you know, we take kind of take main springs for granted and nobody really thinks about them much nowadays. It's like you know, in any watch, it's the one part that is for sure not a high craft, one-at-a-time handmade component. You know, like Roger Smith uses industrially made main springs that are not all that different from the main springs that you find in entry-level mechanical watches. But you go back to the sort of pre-industrial revolution era or you know, up to you know right up to the sort of end of the nineteenth century really. And main springs were actually quite hard to produce because making high quality steel was not something that was done on an industrial basis. It was actually something that was done on an artisanal basis. There were certain ores that were favored because they uh they just produced better quality steel and nobody really knew why. And over hundreds and thousands of years, you know, steel's been around for, you know, several thousand years, but really, really high grade steel, the knowledge to make it is something that was actually passed down from master to apprentice, and you know, in many cases from father to son. There were trade secrets around it, which were not shared with other uh workers typically. You know so I started researching this and it turns out that making a mainspring for much of the history of watchmaking was done by it's still done by specialists, but it was done historically by specialist craftsmen, uh and that's all they did. Uh and the process had, you know, dozens and dozens of steps. It required um a very high degree of craft. It required the ability to observe the temperature of metal accurate accuracy, um, you know, judge by the uh color of the the uh glow that heated metal produced. It required an understanding of how steels respond to different uh kinds of um working, to you know, being hammered or being drawn out. It required a understanding of uh the way in which steels respond to uh quenching. So if you you heat up a piece of steel to a certain color, if you uh dunk it in water or oil and it the temperature drops really quickly, that produces a certain kind of internal crystalline structure. If you let it cool off slowly, that produces a very different kind of crystalline structure. So all of these things, and you know, these were all um uh rules of thumb, the actual um sort of scientific metallurgic uh chemical and crystallographic basis for understanding how you get high grade spring steel consistently. That came long, long after Main Springs, you know, were started to be produced for watches and clocks. So people were |
| Unknown | literally just doing this by feel. Like they didn't know why it worked. They just knew that like, okay, if you heat it up to approximately this orangey red color, you let it sit for six minutes and then you dunk it in some oil, it'll work. If you heat it up to a slightly brighter color of orange and only wait five minutes, it's going to break and not work |
| Unknown | . Yeah, that's exactly right. You know, so um you you get smaller uh smaller crystals for instance if you uh cool a metal very quickly uh you get larger crystals if you let it cool more slowly. And um although there was not really an understanding of the uh the crystal structure of steel um, you know, in the Middle Ages, for instance, you look at uh swords that were being produced in places like um uh Damascus and places like Japan, there was a really, really high level of empirical understanding of the effects of uh different ways of working steel and different ways of quenching steel on the crystal structure of the metal. So um a high-grade Japanese sword, the high-grade katana, has um a relatively soft, uh, relatively flexible central core, but out by the edge where you want smaller crystals because it produces a much sharper cutting edge than large crystals. Um you have what you have very very small crystals. And the way that they achieved that was by basically uh heat painting the sword with a slurry of clay and iron filings to different thicknesses along the length of the sword. And that way you would get different cooling rates uh when you when you uh actually quench the weapon. And so there was sort of similar stuff going on or a similar level of understanding going on in the manufacture of main springs by hand, uh which was you know, as I said, it was a very long drawn-out business um and really, really good mainspring manufacturing uh was such a specialist art that most watchmakers uh didn't even attempt it themselves. They would actually buy mainsprings from specialist manufacturers which varied in quality. And uh the good ones, really good main springs were quite expensive. When watchmaking and clock making got started in the United States, um we didn't have the ability here at first to manufacture main springs at all, so they had to be imp if you were an American clockmaker and you're uh drinking buddies with Paul Revere, uh you're not uh uh getting your main springs from the United States. They have to be imported from overseas, it's super, super expensive. Uh and it's difficult to be competitive with actual finished clocks, you know, coming in from A |
| Unknown | aron Powell So do you think since those days, since this has become a pretty standardized industrial process, do you think we've lost something? Like is there something there that that you think is is missing or is this actually just like a good thing that now this this sort of like scientific headache has been figured out? Aaron Powell I mean I think it's a cool thing |
| Unknown | to know about. I mean I think it's a cool thing to know about obviously because I spent countless hours researching the least loved component uh in um in the watch. Yeah, you know, whenever craft techniques disappear, I think something is lost. It would probably be possible to duplicate some of the um some of the techniques. Um one of my main uh sources um for the article was a translation of a text that had actually um been written by a main spring maker who sort of described the different steps in his process in the seventeen hundsred. Um and uh y you know, it it would be possible to some degree to reproduce these techniques, but you know, you wouldn't be working with um, you know, an ore from a specific part of the world necessarily that uh you know had particular properties and it would I I think most people would regard it as more trouble than it's worth you know you take technique techniques like this and you displace them in time um you change the circumstances around them and it get it gets diffic |
| Unknown | ult to get the same product. Yeah, I think I think all of this brings up a broader question about mechanical watchmaking, right? Which is that everyone, hopefully everyone listening to this knows that like, you know, a ten dollar quartz watch that you get from the drugstore, right, is is a better timekeeper. It's a more effective timekeeper than the finest handmade watch, right? And in a similar way, you said that, you know, a a handmade artisanal mainspring at this point is going to be much less effective, much less reliable, much less um it won't have the same sort of longevity that that a industrial made main spring would have. Trevor Burr |
| Unknown | us And you know and critically it won't deliver power as smoothly over the course of its entire power reserve, which is something modern Mainsprings, which incidentally uh are very, very complex metallurgically. Uh the m that's something that modern Mainsprings do extre |
| Unknown | mely well. Right. But at the core, uh to a certain degree, especially at the high end, uh mechanical watchmaking isn't about those things anymore, right? It's about the art, it's about the sort of craft, it's about the appreciation of doing things the old-fashioned way. So I wonder for for you, you know, we won't we won't call out any names. I won't put any any of our watchmaking friends on the on the carpet here, but are there certain watchmakers that you wish still did make their own main springs, even if they weren't technically as good just because they would be handmade and they would add that kind of last little element |
| Unknown | ? I mean I think it would be a really cool thing for somebody to try and do but there's no money in it. Um I mean uh even even at the h you know highest end, you know, sort of artisanal watchmaking. I I I mean I I would love uh one day to own a Roger Smith watch. I would also love one day to uh actually be affluent enough to own a Roger Smith watch. Uh which is another you and me both, my friend.. Yeah Which is another conversation. But I think he does absolutely gorgeous stuff. But you know, he doesn't uh use um piercing saws and uh piercing files and saws to cut out his main plates and bridges. Those are cut out on um CNC cutting machines, on computer guided cutting machines, and for a reason. You know, when you're making watches in series, you're not i if the customer is concerned to have something that represents craft and that represents uh you know, the history of craft. Well, you know, y you're just not giving them anything by uh insisting on roughing out uh you know large components the old fashioned way. It's very, very time consuming. It produces much, much lower precision. Um you're it's much, much harder to end up with a watch that's going to run well, especially if you're using an escapement which is very I mean all escapements are highly, highly sensitive to precision in manufacture. The coaxial escapement um more so than the lever. And um there just wouldn't be th there would there sort of wouldn't be any point other than being able to say, Well I did this. You know, I mean it's not um uh it the main spring sits in a barrel, um unless it's a skeletonized watch, it's not visible. Um you know, so you uh and it doesn't look particularly different from a modern mainspring when it's sitting there. It's never going to be a beautiful thing to look at. So you're talking about something that would add an enormous amount of time, energy, effort, and complexity to the watch uh for a significant reduction in the performance of the watch um and which moreover adds nothing to the aesthetic experience of the watch and is purely an abstract mental satisfaction. So it's not like it's not hard to understand why nobody's nobody's pursued it. So that's a |
| Unknown | no. Right. Right. Yeah, no, I I think all of that makes a lot of sense, Jack. And I would say to anyone listening, if if you're the kind of person who finds yourself defending the idea of like a handmade watch and a mechanical watch and you kinda want to explain to other people how much goes into that, even to a a very basic modern mechanical watch, uh, send this article on to people. We'll link it up in the show notes if you haven't read it already. But uh this this to me really sums up kind of how even the most unappreciated, kind of industrialized part of modern watchmaking has so much history and so much backstory that that is almost unintelligible just by looking at the part. Um you you really have to go dig dig deeper. Yeah, I complet I mean I |
| Unknown | I obviously completely agree. And um you know, I I mean the modern mainspring is the end result of a 500 year struggle to get these things to work properly. And |
| Unknown | here we are. All right, Jack. Let's move on. Let's do article number two. Uh this is about a hot topic. Uh We're gonna move from uh something that uh almost nobody cares about to something everybody seems to care about. Yeah, something everyone seems to care about and something everyone seems to have a very impassioned opinion about, and seems to think they are absolutely right about. This article has 182 comments on it. It was published just a couple days ago. In depth, Fotina, the histories and the pros and cons. For people who don't know, Fotina refers to the uh color of luminous material on a watch dial that makes it look aged and makes it look like a vintage watch. So that kind of orangey creamy colored loom. Uh it can refer to other things like dials that have fake sort of like patination on them and other sorts of things, but predominantly and mostly what this article is concerned about is this idea of loom that instead of being bright white is yellow or cream colored or orange in order to look Right. Um people love it. People hate it. You may or may not, Jack, have coined the term Fotina. I mean the the fun |
| Unknown | ny thing is, uh it's actually very difficult to find out what uh firsts are sometimes. Um on the Internet, especially when you're talking about uh internet phenomena that took place on technology platforms that uh you know in some cases no longer exist, or that have been so heavily modified that they're not really um you know searchable in terms of what people were talking about uh you know back in the early two thousands. So, you know, on Watch Forums for instance, there was a time when watch forums really kind of like ruled the day in watch discourse. This is before Instagram And these were these forums were the first places that people kind of gathered to uh talk about watches, you know, digitally. Um and prior to that of there were electronic bulletin board services. Um So people have been talking about watches for almost as long as there has been an internet available for people to talk about watches on. But it's really hard to find out who coined the term. And it's it's actually fairly difficult to find out uh which watch it was that first used uh loom that was deliberately intended to look like vintage loom. So in the course of researching this story, um, you know, one of the nice things about Timezone dot com is that they have archived you know, there's a ton of discussions and a ton of articles uh on the site which uh are archived all the way back, you know, to the very early two thousands and in some cases even before. And uh it took quite a bit of digging, but I finally managed to push back the date uh for which the first uh Fotina Loom watch appeared to uh two thousand eight. Okay. Oh yeah. That was just great. Yeah, and it was uh it was a very interesting phenomenon. You know, the comments uh on that particular watch at the time, you know, back in two thousand eight, you know, a lot of the comments ran to, oh wow, that's so cool. They actually colored uh the loom to so it it looks like a vintage watch. And you know, there were other reactions to it as well, which were what the hell are they doing? Uh I hate that pre aged loom. It's so uh looks so phony maloney. Um I I why couldn't they have just uh you know, left it white and let it age naturally? And um I mean the answer is it would not age naturally. Well, yeah, it certainly wouldn't age the same way. I mean superluminova does not age the way tritium does. It's not been out for all that long actually. Superluminova is a relatively recent phenomenon. It's been around since uh I want to say ninety seven I think uh Rolex, ninety-seven, ninety-ighte uh Rolex switched over gradually from um from using tritium to to using superluminova, and uh I would guess that's about the same time as the rest of the industry did. It's just easier to work with, you know, than a radioactive substance. Yeah. Um and it doesn't fade over time the way uh the way Tritium does. Right. Um but you know one of the great things about posting stories like this is you know Hodinki's widely read enough by enough people who've been around long enough that um if you publish a story like this you often hear from people whose memory is better than yours and who recall things that you have forgotten and there's a couple of people who've actually mentioned a Panorai watch which goes back uh to which was released in two thousand four, which to me looks unquestionably like um now the earliest you know, so the story's already out of date. You know, thank you, Internet. But um but I never would have found that out if I hadn't published the story. So you know, and it to me this w watch looks unambiguously like uh an attempt to use um sort of yellowish or beige colored loom as a way of reproducing the look um of aged radium, in this case an aged radium dial, aged tritium dial in other cases. And a couple of other people mentioned some interesting early cases as well of colored loom which were not I I don't th you could kind of make a case that they were examples of Fotina, so to speak. Um but they looked to me more like you know just sort of design decisions because uh they were designed to match other elements on the dials. So there's um uh there's a Milgas for instance uh which had orange colored uh dial markers but it also had um uh orange colored numerals. So I think that was a just a matching dial elements issue. And there's a there was a Blanc Pen limited edition uh which is also mentioned in the comments. Uh really, really interesting looking watch, bright orange luminous, uh luminous material. But again, I think that was uh really more of a design decision than an attempt to mimic the look of vintage |
| Unknown | per se. Yeah. I mean, I gotta be honest, I've I've said this I think before here on on the pod, but I am a fan of Fotina in many cases, not for the effect it creates of reproducing a vintage watch, but for its effect of being less sort of arresting on the eyes. I often find, especially with black dials, having bright white plots is just so it's distracting. It takes away from things. I find it to be too stark. I find it to be um too clean. Like it just it feels off and I find like a slight off white, like a slight creaminess to it. Uh it makes it easier for me to read and easier to appreciate the dial and if the dial has a bit of texture like it doesn't overwhelm as much. So for for no other reason than just like pure aesthetics, uh I think I'm I'm on board the the Fotinu train. I mean I think there's something to be said for that. We should we should |
| Unknown | get one of our designers in here to confirm this, but my um uh understanding has always been that um in web page design for instance you don't want text body uh to be white text against a uh black background because it's just uh it's it's it's a little too hard to read. It's hard on the eyes. And you know, the more that I look at uh you know some of the more subtle watches with um tinted, shall we say, loom that have come out in recent years, I I I mean I think the industry's gotten better at doing it in a more subtle way. Um but it doesn't it it really does seem to reduce some of the I don't know, it glare seems like too strong a word, but like that high contrast white on black that you were talking about, yeah, it can be a little hard on the eyes sometimes. It makes the watch look a little too um Yeah. And I think giving a little uh you know sort of beige coloration to the loom actually gives the watch um in some cases uh I think better legibility, it's easier around the eyes and just a general um you know |
| Unknown | Yeah. It's funny too 'cause there are watches where like I'm perfectly willing to contradict myself here where like the the Black Bay fifty eight, for example, I love the off white loom on the Black Bay fifty eight. Yeah. The Rolex Summariner, however, to me looks perfect with bright white loom. Like the chroma light and bright white that glows blue like that to me is exactly what that watch needs. If they rolled out a Submariner with like creamy loom I'd be like, huh? Yeah, that's it. It doesn't feel quite right. Like something about this watch demands that it be crisp and sharp and perfect. You know, like a modern sub should be black and white, super high contrast, like whatever. Yet the Black Bay 58 feels feels great, or even one of the other Black Bay models. So it's funny how these watches, something as small as like a few uh a few tonal changes in the loom, like a tiny hint of of of color, just completely changes the character of the wat |
| Unknown | ch. Yeah, you know, I mentioned this in the uh in the story there was so there was the two thousand eight um JLC um Polaris Memox limited edition they did another version in uh two thousand eighteen and the one from two thousand eighteen the loom is much much more subtle uh it's actually kind of uh uh uh it's easy to miss that the loom is actually uh off-white rather than straight white the first time you look at it. Um but it gives and it gives the watch this really, really nice sort of you know slightly warm feel that um a lot of modern watches don't have without uh without it feeling like the company's trying to hit you over the head with uh you know sort of you know good old days uh you know vibe |
| Unknown | . I totally agree. Um I wonder were there any uh comments specifically that you saw that uh made you kind of like shake your head as you were uh perusing them? I |
| Unknown | mean, you know, the one thing about the I say this at the top of the story, there's certain kinds of discussions that are that revolve around either or choices and there are really strong feelings on both sides of the question. And there's a tendency to sort of not go past that. And y you know, there's nothing I I don't think there's anything really wrong with that per se. I mean people uh come to read Hodinky because they have strong feelings about watches, so you know, thank god you know and you see those in the comments and you know, and thank God they do. I think there's room for a lot of different opinions on this thing. Uh you know, on this on this particular issue um as with many other things. But I st it still kind of blows me away how uh absolutist and doctrinaires uh you know all of us can be in you know in some of our tastes. I mean when I first my first reaction to Fotina when it started coming out in the you know, two thousand six, seven, eight, during that period. My first reaction was incredibly negative. You know, um yeah and again I mentioned this in the story, but the I I I I don't remember the watch, but I remember my reaction. You know, the first time I saw it, I thought to myself, what the hell is this nonsense? What is this airsatz, phony baloney, bullshit shot, insincere um y you know, just just just laughably pathetic attempt to steal fire from genuinely vintage watches is this. How many times a day do you think what is this nonsense? You know, I pretty much wake up and go to sleep. Okay, perfect. Thinking not about watches necessarily, but other things but Perfect. towards life watches are a great thing to get into because there's always something there's always something to be upset about. True, yeah. Um but you know I've really it's my my my view on this uh uh has has changed over the years. I don't know if it's Stockholm syndrome or or or or whatever. Um you know just uh m maybe I'm I you know I'm just tired of sustaining outrage over something that's ultimately fairly insignificant, but um it just doesn't bother me all that much anymore. I mean I think look look I think that there are certainly um as you were saying earlier there are definitely instances where it's better done than others. Yeah. I personally I like my Fotina to be on the subtle side. Um you know uh otherwise you know I feel like it's it's um oh somebody somebody in the comments said that uh you know heavy handed Fotina uh reminded the felt a little bit too much like LARPing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like which but which which is a stands for live action role playing. You know, this is uh people who enjoy playing Dungeons and Dragons. They actually dress up in a you know magic user costume or a uh you know, a warrior costume and they go out and they sort of act out of Dungeons and Dragons adventure. And you know, it it does have kind of that like you know, LARPing slash, you know, old old time T Y M E Renaissance Fair kind of uh kind of feel. It's like it's fun for five minutes, but you definitely wouldn't want to live in a period where uh there were no antibiotics or flesh toilets. Yeah. Um and like, you know, fotina at its worst, you know, you you're just kinda like I come you know I st I still when I see it done badly, I my reaction is |
| Unknown | still like, oh come on, man. Alright so I won I want to ask the last thing I want to talk about is is about whether we've seen peak Fotina. So Brigade for uh OnlyWatch this past year released a special type twenty, a unique piece that has a chocolatey brown, like faux tropical dial with this creamy loom in the hands and on the numerals. Uh the watch basically it's like a fake tropical type 20. Um, I happen to think the watch is is rather handsome, despite the fact that I'm normally not a tropical dial person. Um but this to me is like this this is not even Fotina. This is like we've gone full on like reproducing vintage watches basically, uh, with all of their aesthetic uh peccadillos, shall we say? Um do you think that's that's kind of like this is as far as we can push it or as far as it will be pushed or do you think people are gonna keep keep pushing for |
| Unknown | ward there are two watches that I think of um in the context of have we reached peak Fotina one of them is the brigade type twenty for only watch, the unique piece that you mentioned, and the other is the new uh Omega Speedmaster with the caliber three twenty-one in steel, uh which also has tinted loom. The interesting thing to me about both of those watches is that they actually uh it's uh it's uh vintage through and through. The brigade actually uses a vintage value uh flyback chronograph movement. So it's as uh you know it it's it's consistent, you know uh, from the case design to the dial design to the mechanism inside. You know, it d it actually delivers in terms of the mechanics on what the exterior promises. I mean for me one of the biggest disconnects is when you have a uh you know, a modern you know, sort of mass-produced um current production, modern movement, uh, you know, inside a sort of old-timey case. You know, it just sort of feels like the inside is letting down the outside a little bit. Yeah. And then of course with the caliber three twenty one Speedmaster. Um you know the th the caliber three twenty one went out of production in uh I think it was sixty seven or sixty-eight. Um boy as a diehard Speedmaster fan, I should have that date memorized. I wasn't gonna production for decades and they have brought back the movement, which is a whole nother topic of conversation. Some people love it, some people hate it. Um but again it's a watch that is consistent, you know, through and through uh in terms of its adherence to not only vintage design cues, but vintage movement engineering. And you know, both of those movements, the one in the brigade and the one in the speedmaster, those were really, really fantastic movements. Um they were they're really fantastic watches. Uh both the Brigade and the three twenty one Speedmaster, uh the modern three twenty one steel steel speedmaster. I mean, those are both watches that I would really enjoy uh wearing and owning, I think. And you know, that's a situation where um I think the fact that there is uh you know a consistent connection to the past in every aspect, the design, um in terms of the physical construction of the case, um the aesthetics in terms of the dial and hands and the movement. Uh I mean to me that really makes the wh |
| Unknown | ole thing sort of sit up and sing. Yeah, I I completely agree with you. I think, you know, there's a big difference between uh you know putting lipstick on a pig and making somet |
| Unknown | hing certain level, but it just doesn't, it feels a little like |
| Unknown | uh I don't know. You know agreed. Well awesome ma'am. Uh we're gonna link this one up in the show notes too. So if you haven't read it, uh please read it and then also leave a comment. Let us know what you think. Again, this is a pretty hot button issue and uh you know as hot button I guess as as an aesthetic issue about watches can be. Um and we'd love to love to hear what people have to say. So uh thanks thanks for sitting down, thanks for writing these articles and uh hopefully hopefully you're working on something else. Oh lots of stuff. Thanks, Jack. Up next, Ben and I sit down with vintage watch expert and hodinky OG Eric Wynn. Hey guys, we got some uh some like old school Hodinky action going on here. Yeah, we got Blake and Felix. Who else do we have? Yeah, the whole crew. I'm just kidding. Shout out to Blake and Felix. Yeah. We got the whole two thousand twelve crew uh going on. Yeah, uh we got Mr. Eric Wind up in here. Thanks so much. Good to see you. It's awesome how's |
| Unknown | uh 2020 going so far it's going really well got uh my daughter's teeth are coming in so that's oh boy yeah momentous and uh Charlie's getting ready to lose his baby teeth. So we got a lot of teeth. |
| Unknown | How's uh how's Charlie's golf swing? It's good. This guy is like I would I would put money behind this guy. He's he's got the real real deal. People have offered money. Uh we haven't taken it yet. How old is he? He's just turned six. He's just turned six. And he has like an actu |
| Unknown | al golf swing, pops the ball in the air, like really does it. Yeah, he does. And they actually have tournaments starting locally at age six. So uh we're excited to |
| Unknown | do that this spring. Can can he play and then we'll we'll quickly go away from this. Can he play like a full nine? |
| Unknown | Can he can he play and everything? Yeah, we play a par three uh,, which is incredible in Palm Beach. Um so you know, the farthest back he goes is about a hundred and fifty yards. That's pretty fun. For a six year old, yeah. He's had uh in the last sort of four rounds he's had three birdies, which is insane. And he's done that three times. Uh so yeah, it's it's insane. It's just have to work on consistency, but he's well he's sick. He can really Yeah, so it's it's insane, particularly when he makes a birdie and I don't. I'm like |
| Unknown | oh jeez When you get beat doing anything by your six year old, uh except like maybe crawling into a tiny space, you know, other than that, like |
| Unknown | it's insane and it's great to see his focus and attention, you know, just to sit there and hit a hundred balls on the the range and everything else. That's crazy. Yeah. Yeah |
| Unknown | , so that's that's really fun. Nice. Uh also to start the year, you guys down there had the uh the Miami Beach |
| Unknown | Antique Show right? Yeah, that was that. That was great. It was much earlier than normal because of the Super Bowl being in Miami. Typically, it's in February. Oh yeah. Uh so the NFL, I think, rented out the convention center for all of February, so they had to move it to early January. Um so it was a little quieter because a lot of you know we had set up on January second and third, which is kind of ridiculous. And And a lot of the Europeans who typically come did not come because they were still celebrating Christmas there. But uh Christmas is like a two month long. Yeah, exactly. Nobody works in December or January. Yeah, so that it was a little quieter, but it was really nice. It was my second year having a booth there and I I enjoyed meeting people and sold a few watches. I was happy. N |
| Unknown | ice. Well I I wanted to kinda start this off by going like all the way back to the beginning. So we'll start Eric with you like way, way at the beginning. How did you end up interested in watches |
| Unknown | ? I think uh the first point was when I inherited my grandfather's watch. Now I was always interested in watches before that. I had a G.I. Joe watch when I turned five. Nice. Uh but uh it was a Hamilton that was a gift from my grandfather to my grandmother for their wedding in nineteen sorry, my grandmother to my grandfather for their wedding in nineteen forty seven. And uh after they both passed my mom got it and uh gave it to me, you know, as a gift and that was what got me started in this interest in mechanical things. It was my first mechanical watch. And uh and then around that time, uh summer of two thousand eight, Hodinky started and I came across it very early um on like a men's style blog somehow. I think it was men.style.com.style. |
| Unknown | Which should have been GQ.com. Yeah. Which is like the the most amazing like misuse of a domain I can ever think of. Yeah. Exactly. Shout out to Condi Nast on that one |
| Unknown | . Although men.style.com after Tumblr.com might be the most shouted out website on this podcast. That's probably true. Yeah. |
| Unknown | That's probably true. And and then it was like ten of the most desirable wa vintage watches, I think, and there was Paul Newman Daytona, which I thought was just so cool, uh James Bond's mariner, etcetera. And then I suddenly was reading uh this gentleman's posts every day uh about different vintage watches. I remember there was a Seiko Rally diver he posted from watches to buy dot com, which still exists, same website decades later, same rate. Oh yeah. Derek Dyer and it was three hundred ninety five dollars. I was like, I want that and I bought it and loved it and uh and then it all continued from there. I was then sort of emailing Ben occasional things I saw on eBay and on dealer websites. I mean the dealer websites they were like five at the time. It was like Yorktime dot com, watches to buy dot com. Yorktime was Rod, right? Yes. He's still around. Shout out to Rod, wherever you are. Yeah, he's still in Canada. ClassicWatch.com, uh like lost times dot com, a few others. Yeah, it was just interesting. And then you got into journalism school in uh May twenty ten and I had found this cool website dedicated to the pole router which I think still exists poll router dot D E and uh and the story of the pull router Genta being twenty-three and I was twenty-three. Uh and uh I was like this would be a cool story for you Ben and then Ben wrote back and said actually you want to write about it? I'm starting journalism school shortly looking for more writers Still can't. I said, yeah, that'd be awesome and and then the rest was history. I was just really bit by the bug and enjoyed writing the pieces and I mean just to have a view into what Odinkey has become today has been pretty special |
| Unknown | . Yeah and that was the same time that we had Blake, Bettner, Felix Schultz, Jason Heaton join as freelancers as well. Uh yeah, that that was a fun time. They joined right after me, so I have |
| Unknown | seniority. But who's keeping score? No one's keeping score. What if we were? And then John Reardon. John Reardon. And then shortly after that, I came up to New York and we went to a Sotheby's preview, I think, and and we saw Charles Turrell and Nate Borgell at Antiquorum and you took a video of the Ethiopian caterpillar basically the caterpillar. Still the and it was on you know, your little canon uh camera was right there and that still like lives on today. Still lives on that |
| Unknown | video is like literally like the the most painful thing to our entire video department like you know happiness. Yeah. This was shot on like a Canon S ninety five handheld at Sotheby's Catherine Thomas pulled it out. It's like an eight second long clip. It's like the stupid video of this like, you know I don't even know how to describe it. Yeah, it just goes up and down. It's a little automatic. Yeah, a little automaton, but like tiny, like four inches long or something like that. And like I just put it online. Yeah, it's like an eight second video. It's it's like meaningless. Like no production just uploaded the raw file. And it like has like millions of views. Like just like so much. Because didn't like CNN or somebody it ended up on like CNN.com, like MSNBC, and all these like mainstream news sites. Like I still don't really know why. Uh but yeah, it has more views than like talking watches with John Bell. |
| Unknown | And it was sorry. Because uh you know, I was right there for it and then a week later you're like, this thing has got the most hits ever here. |
| Unknown | That that was when I learned like what the internet actually is. Like it just makes no sense. You know, you can create this like wonderfully produced, beautiful like Magnum opus and then like, you know, have the stupid thing that meant nothing and get like twenty five X the number of views. Yeah. That's the internet. Yep. Exactly. |
| Unknown | Yeah. It's funny, I forgot that you wrote that pole router thing. 'Cause gonna bring up the fact that you're actually the one who introduced Ben and me. Yes. Because you read the blog I was doing at the time when I was a student. What was that called? It was called Simply Refined. Okay. Still online. It hasn't been described. Back then? Yeah. Like real old school. Like Simply Refined. Like 19th century old school. Like real old school. Yeah. Um like certainly not wearing a baseball hat. Yeah, yeah. Um but yeah, so you we got connected, but it's funny because also a pole router was the first vintage watch I bought. Yep. Which I ended up actually buying from Ben's cousin. Yep. Uh which I still have, were on my wedding. That's awesome. Um yeah. And it's funny because now you know we spend all this time like every story goes through like a pitch process and a vetting process and we have often like a photographer and a video producer and a writer and two editors and like it's this whole big production but people forget back then it was like Ben or Eric just being like Hey this is a this is a thing that's interesting. I'm gonna write about it in twenty minutes between classes or like on the bus or whatever and it's just like that' |
| Unknown | s that's how it happened. I'm not really a bus guy. Okay. But all right I'm not a business. But I mean like I mean I was in journalism school at the time you were still in at Georgetown or you were at O |
| Unknown | xford though? No, I was working. Okay. Um so I was like just staying late at work in a consulting firm in DC writing. And people were like why are you here so late? I'm like writing about watches |
| Unknown | . Which I'm sure is the answer they expect it, right? Yeah |
| Unknown | . Uh and then you went on to Oxford. Yes. And did that for a year? Yep. And the three of us, uh Ben, Steven, and me, we went out uh for dinner when you guys were with Jack, Jack Carlson. Yeah. Rowing Blazers, which is |
| Unknown | right down the block. Yeah. Everything is connected. Tall connected. Yeah. Yeah. He ord |
| Unknown | ered, I think, a plate of French fries. French fries. French fries. Yeah. And I remember the waiter looking at him like he had nine heads. We were at an Italian restaurant, by the way. But I mean we were at what what's called |
| Unknown | the Chicone. Very chic restaurant in particular back then. Yes. And he's like, I'll just have a plate of French fries. And the guy's like Like for his entrepreneurs and Steven |
| Unknown | was wearing double monks from Spain, custom made. Pretty hashtag menswear back then. Yeah, it was. You were it was good. Those were the days, man. Those were the days. And now we're here. And now we're here. And you were working on the Drake's collaboration at the time, I think. Oh yeah, we were. Yeah. And uh Steven's like, Yeah, we got this cool these cool ties coming out with Drake. That was the very first Hodinki collaboration, dude. Yeah, it was. Yeah. It was a |
| Unknown | wesome. So what year was that? Can we place that? Twenty twelve. Fall twenty twelve, yeah. Okay. So after I graduated and you were yeah, you were full time. Yep. Yep. That makes sense. The idea 3940G. 3940G, 2015. Graduation. Still have it. Yeah. That's good. Uh we went to where did we go? Where did |
| Unknown | we go? Oh the Goodwood. We went to Goodwood with IWC and then we went to Paris with Zenith. And then I got on a four AM train and took a train to Geneva and went to visit Vashron. It was the first time I went to go see a watch manufacturer. Oh, that's awesome. I'd been on the job like two months, showed up at Geneva having like been awake already for like six hours or whatever, and went to a watch factory and my mind was completely blown. Yeah, that's that's a good place to start back on. That's real watch back. For sure. Um now we're here, sitting in Ben's office. We got a couple dozen people outside. Uh the impeachment on the TV on TV. It's you know, everything's happening. Yeah, so much stuff happening. Yeah. This week's episode is brought to you by the Hodinky Shop. The Hodinky Shop was created by Watchlovers for Watchlovers. It started way back in 2012 with a handful of watch straps and travel pouches, and it's grown to include dozens of strap options, tons of travel accessories, the best watchbooks and magazines, outstanding vintage watches, and some of the most desirable modern watches on the market today. It's truly a full-service destination for anyone interested in watches. In addition to stocking the products you want, the Hodinki Shop is committed to making the discovery and buying process itself as fun and convenient as it can be. You can browse and shop anywhere in the world directly on your computer, tablet, or smartphone, and the incredible photographs ensure you get a vivid, accurate look at whatever you're considering. It doesn't stop there though. Once you've ordered a watch, you can count on complimentary, expedited shipping to get it to you as quickly as overnight. An extra year of warranty is included at no additional charge, and all of your paperwork is stored digitally so you don't have to sweat losing those precious papers. Importantly, when it comes to modern watches, the Hodinki Shop is an official authorized retailer for all brands it carries. This means you're guaranteed to be getting a brand new, fully authentic watch with its full warranty. There's no funny business at all. The experience is truly best in class from top to bottom, and it's what the Hodinki Shop thinks 21st century luxury is all about. To learn more and to take a look at the full range of watches, accessories, and more, visit shop.hodinky.com. Alright, let's get back to the show. So Eric, since since then you've made your way full time into the watch world. Yes. What was that process like? Like how how did you decide like maybe this is something I actually want to do and can do full time as opposed to kind of on the side late night after after your da |
| Unknown | y job. It's interesting because I think I'm not Ben obviously didn't plan for this to be full time either. What are you talking about? Exactly. And and you know, in your interview with Waco, you said once you got into Columbia, your friends were like, Okay, I get it now, success, you're all done. Stop. And I felt this you know, I loved watches and I always wanted it as a hobby uh you know once I got into it, but I I thought that it would kind of ruin it if I did it full time and it would almost be a betrayal of my education and uh very feel very differently now obviously I love watches and um back in two thousand fifteen I decided to make the leap into watches full time uh and I joined uh Christie's. Uh it was a tough, you know, it was a tough decision. I was thinking about joining Hodinke at the time, which had just gotten investment. And uh obviously Ben is definitely one of the people I most admire in my life. Christie's seemed to make the most sense for me and what I wanted to do and and vintage watches. So that was it was a wild ride at Christie's and we can talk about auctions and sort of that whole world uh in a little bit if you like, but I I did that for about two and a half years and then decided to start my own business and now I'm a vintage watch dealer. Wind vintage? Correct. Perfect. Where'd you get the name? Was a tough one. I I'm not really into modern watches, so it made sense. What watch are you wearing right now? Uh I'm wearing an Eterna baby chronograph. I just a real little baby chronograph. That's cool. Yeah. And I I uh I I don't know. I got this from a friend in Switzerland who found it uh from the original family, so it's just pretty cool to wear something so small and the movement's incredible. I just visited our friend Alcus to get a photo of it and the finishing is amazing. 1940s. Very cool. Um so yeah, I mean Ben talked uh at the end of December about sort of tastes and the watch world being very boring. Eyverone wanting Nautilus, Aquanaut, 51, 64, etc. And uh that's definitely sort of what I'm seeing as well. And I think it's important people break beyond that and uh develop their own tastes, as both of you said |
| Unknown | . Yeah, is that is that something you actively work with clients on? Is kind of like developing their taste and kind of pushing them. You know, a client comes to you and says like I want a Nautilus and you say, Okay, I can probably get you that. Yeah. But here are like five other th |
| Unknown | ings you should probably look at first. Yeah. I think um listen, I'll help people find what they're looking for, obviously, but it's it's very boring if everyone has the exact same tastes. And I do think a Nautilus is an important part of a collection. If you're gonna have you know 10 to 20 watches, that's I really love the the the watch myself. I'm not an Aquanaut fan. Uh but but I love the Nautilus. I love GMTs, subs, I explorers, you know, all the the iconic models. Uh and but then there's a whole wide world beyond that that I absolutely love, you know, things like Hoyer chronographs from from the forties or the sort of iconic ones from the sixties and seventies or uh an's I've been getting into recently and all kinds of really cool and unusual stuff that you won't see other people wearing. Nice. H |
| Unknown | ow how did that fit in when you were with an auction house, right? Because like there you have to kind of balance getting people into new and interesting things and like finding the stuff that's interesting to you, but also making sure that these things achieve numbers. Right. Like you can't you can't be pushing people too hard, right? Otherwise you just don't make your numbers |
| Unknown | . It was not so I I ended with Christie's in twenty seventeen and the sort of herd mentality was honestly not as bad then as it is today. And uh people we had a thematic auction in 2016 that was Nautilus for the 40th anniversary of the Nautilus. And by the time the fourth we basically put ten Nautilus watches in each sale location, so ten in Geneva, ten in Dubai, then Geneva, then Hong Kong and New York. And by the time New York rolled around we were really working hard to sell those because no one wanted them. And so that wasn't the same. I mean, obviously nice subs and GMTs and date tonas did well, but it wasn't the hysteria that it became a few years later. Um so it it uh there was a lot more broad thinking and we were kind of seeing the rise of value of different things like Speedmasters really increased a lot during that time and Hoyers and other brands and a very stable way, I feel like, and then when you get too much hype and hysteria y that's where you get these the the the softening prices as Ben reference six two six three's a couple weeks ago coming |
| Unknown | down So j just to clear things up so that people understand, you as an auction house person, do you represent the buyer or the seller? We absolutely represent the seller. Yeah. So I I think like that that's something that that I kind of learned early on in in my career, not from Eric, but from other folks at Christie's and elsewhere, I'd I'd buy a watch and they they just like wouldn't tell me what the real story was, you know. And I'd back I remember buying the Vashron, the forty forty two forty. And uh you know, I had spent a f you know, back then a fortune for me on that thing and it just it didn't wasn't even close to working. And I was just like, guys like why why wouldn't you tell me this? And they were like, we don't we don't have to tell you that. And that that's the thing that I don't think people really understand about auctions, whether it's car auctions or anything. You represent the seller. Yes. And the buyer is just, you know they're just there. Yeah |
| Unknown | , they just make the transaction happen. Yep. And that was frustr the most frustrating thing about working for the auction house was the amount of things beyond your control. So you're I probably had to say I'm sorry more in those two years than the whole rest of my life combined for things beyond my control. So uh people don't know for instance that if someone pays late or doesn't pay, the auction house is not on the hook, for instance, for giving you the money. And I had you know situations where late payment is very, very common and and got worse over the time frame I was at Christie's and or non-payment and uh because there really aren't consequences, you know, they'll ban you from bidding again, but they're not gonna come after you for the money. They're just not going to because uh it's too much work legally and too difficult to get that money. So um, you know, I've had had situations where a watch sold, say, for $40,000 and the people s went and spent that money on something else, assuming they'd get a check in thirty-five days and then the guy ghosts basically and in that situation you can say we'll re-offer the watch in six months and the watch is sort of quasi-burned because it already came up or you give it back to the owner and there. Or you try to sell it to an underbidder who in many cases does not want to buy it because they don't know what the true price was. Uh because they were driven up by this ghost bidder, basically. And uh and then you can on all you can say is I'm sorry. You know, it's it's really tough. Um and then you have all the things beyond your control, like catalog production, the the team that does the digital formation of the catalogs, accidentally moved the photo so it was over part of the text and then the catalog prints and you didn't catch that and all this sort of stuff and you've got angry consigners. Yeah, but that of course impacts, you know what affects that. Exactly. Uh and and that's just tough. Yeah. H |
| Unknown | ow how do you think it's different now that you're you're sort of a private seller, that you you can control the whole process? How how do you view it as |
| Unknown | like what what are the biggest differences in your mind? Yeah. I guess from a macro level I do feel that things are sort of swinging against the watch auctions right now because there are so many huge forces that favor i direct sale of the watch either from dealers to collectors or collector to collector. Um and and that is one obviously the rise of Instagram, so people know who is collecting these watches, things like talking watches, obviously with different collectors. Uh Rani Madvani should probably write a big check to Hodinky because everyone in their their neighbor writes Rani if they have some sort of funky unusual AP or Cartier or something else. So he can buy all these things directly from random people that offer them to him. And uh and the same with uh you know, Jason Singer and Bubble Backs and and Goldberger and all kinds of interesting watches. So you know who buyers are on the other side. Whereas a decade ago no one knew who the buyers were. Uh it was just the auction houses held that information strictly to themselves and then there were a few dealers who kind of knew some of the big buyers but not all but we're in a much more transparent world where I get a watch and I can say these are the five people I think would likely buy it and I can offer it to them without having to go through a six month consignment process to the auction house and the risk that the watch gets stolen or damaged during the preview which happens uh unfortunately and uh you know giving up twenty five percent plus to the auction house their buyer's premium that they charge. And then you don't get paid for another sort of thirty five to forty five days after that if the buyer pays on time. Which they may not. Sounds great. Yeah, right. Sounds awesome. I mean, that |
| Unknown | 's another thing that I think most people don't realize about the auction game is if you can sign something like you're without the watch and without any money for six months, a year sometimes. Like you're this is a long |
| Unknown | process. It really is. It's also you know, I mean a a question we get asked often is is Hodinky gonna do auctions, right? I mean it would kind of make sense in our portfolio. Orel has asked me that and and the answer is like resolutely just no. It's not a business we want to get into. Like first of all, like Eric just kind of you know extolled the the you know the the idea that like on the consumer side it sucks. But even from a business perspective it ain't that great. No you know, I mean like the these margins are paper thin. You know, if you're uh if you're a qualified seller, you're negotiating basically zero cost to selling it. Like the auction doesn't make anything on that. Uh and then it's like you gotta travel around the world to promote this stuff to make paper thin margins, you know, like the amount of money that that Phillips or Christie's or whoever will spend on like a big ticket item is just enormous. It is. And you hope it works. You just hope. Yeah. You know? And it's like if if you know, in many cases, and please correct me if I'm wrong, it could be two to three guys that are driving up a ten million dollar price. Yep. And if one of those guys' kids gets sick that day and he just misses the auction, it's over. Everything changes, you know? Yeah. And it's just it's just a wild, like unpredictable business that just it just feels like from last century to me, you know. It does. Yeah. Yeah |
| Unknown | . And especially for watches where there's a real market and things are trading hands frequently. Whereas, like, if you look at the art world, like auctions make sense in a world where like there is one whatever masterpiece by Picasso or Rothko or whatever, and like it sells once every 40 years and we have no idea what it's it's worth on today's market. But like, you know, a guilt summariner, right? Like we know what that costs. Like there's no reason for that to have a variable price. No |
| Unknown | , I agree. And it's uh that's definitely the trend, I feel like, at the moment. Yeah. |
| Unknown | Well, I wanna I wanna dig into some specific watch talks. So one thing I want to do is if we've got any anytime you have a group of collectors or enthusiasts or whatever, you'll have more opinions than you have people. But when it comes to vintage watches, especially vintage Rolex, there are many schools of thought, but two big schools of thought. And you guys represent kind of those two schools of thought. So we've got Ben, who's a dial guy, and we've got Eric who's a case guy. That's true. So what I wanna do is while I have both of you here, can you each make a case for why either the case or the dial is for you the thing? And then I want you guys to kind of uh go go at the end. Yeah, you know, you know, I've got I've talked about this one. I gotta do |
| Unknown | this. Okay, go for it. All right. Hey, I I don't like starting. I can go. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean so for for me and to be clear, I care about case quality. It's not like I want like some shiny pol overpolished, like you know, blob of a case. But I think to to me the dial is is like the the the other name for the dial that many people call it is the face, right? This is the face of the watch. This is to in many cases the personality of the watch. It is, you know, in many cases the defining traits of what any watch can be. An explorer is an explorer because of those three six nine right on on the dial, right? And so I think in you know you get so much of the personality from the face or the dial. Um and I think, you know, f for me, those little intricacies and ins and outs are they really define what the what a watch can be. Again, I'm completely appreciative of spectacularly like unmolested cases, etc. But the the the first and foremost for me a dial really can make uh a watch. And you know, I I've you know Eric and I have had this conversation many times. Uh you know, you can swap out dials, you can't swap out cases. Well, you know, depends on how you kind of define it. Um but again to me it is like the defining characteristic of of any watch. I mean think of like the Paul Newman. The Paul Newman's the Paul Newman because of that dial. It's not because of the case. You know, in many cases the uh well in paddock's less so the dials aren't aren't maybe as interesting, but most of the watches that that we all really, really love and know, Speedmaster, uh Seamaster, Submariner, Daytona, et cetera, it's all about the dials. And you see that this also really interesting kind of price variance based on the dials. Obviously the Paul Newman being, you know, first and foremost but even in you know Guilts of Mariners versus Matt, and then you go underlines and there's all these little things that can make them more interesting. So as somebody that is exposed to watches, and this could just be a product of me being me, somebody that is exposed to watches ad nauseum. I mean, just like overexposed to watches. You see unpolished cases often. You don't see them that often, but you see them. But when you see a new dial variant, it's actually really exciting. It's just like, wow, this is a thing I didn't know. Or then you get you begin to realize that like this style variant only existed for you know the serial range or this year range etcetera and it gets exciting. And I think you know for for people that are buying one submariner in their lifetime, I could see a a case being more important than a dial. But for somebody that will own 30, uh, which I probably have at this point, you know, it to me it it's about the dial for sure. Ye |
| Unknown | ah. Cool. I mean I agree with what Ben said. I mean I really like the proportions of the case. The bev I mean, certain watches for me really need the the unpolished or nearly unpolished case. Like I like a submariner that's vintage. I love the chamfered edges or beveled edges, um, GMTs as well. Other watches are not so important on that front for me, Daytonas and Explorers, because they never had those bevels. So uh it doesn't really affect you when you're looking at the watch if it's been lightly polished. Um and the dial is absolutely critical because if you have a really destroyed dial but a great case that also kills the watch. So y for me it goes hand in hand. But I, you know, I think the problem with a lot of vintage watches is they have been overpolished. And usually a watch is kind of sympathetic to one polish in its life. A lot of these steel spore watches, once you get to two polishes it gets very rounded, the lug holes and the crown guards get soft and you see that with for instance a lot of vintage sea dwellers where the the crown guards almost look like pointed crown guards because they've been polished so much and it looks terrible. Um so no, I think it's a little bit of uh mislabeled to say I'm just a case guy, obviously, and Ben's not Eric Wynn, just a case guy. Yeah, that's headline That's the episode. Eric Wynn just a case of it. But uh yeah, to me it all goes hand in hand. And and I guess with time, I mean what I like is obviously it's very special when to watch his new old stock that's very few and far between. Um but I I personally like to wear watches that show some scratches, that show life, that show a cohesion between the all parts of the watch, the bezel, the case, the dial that show it's lived its life together rather than sort of these cyborg watches where you see like a brand new bezel insert, but the dial and case show where or vice versa, all these different things that people, you know, do to swap things around. And uh yeah, I mean I also like to wear a watch where I I feel like I can wear it and it can get a little scratch or whatever and I've affected the value absolutely zero. And I think that's how a lot of people view it as well. Versus one thing I dislike about the modern market is having to buy this watch and like protect it, you know, with my right hand, like act if I scratch the swatch, I'm gonna lose five thousand dollars in value. Uh I think a lot of people don't want to live that way. Yeah, I don't want to live that way. Yeah, me me neither. I agree |
| Unknown | . Um yeah, I'm um I'm a big proponent of like if you can't wear it and enjoy it and like scratch it every once in a while, like don't don't buy it. Buy something else. Like you're not gonna enjoy it. No, exactly. So while we're talking about quality, another thing I wanted to talk about, and Ben and I have talked about this before on on the podcast is uh restoration. So I'd love to get your thoughts. You know, there's there's full on redials, there's resurfacing, there's retouching, there's relooming, uh and then with cases, there's you know, laser centering. So you can kind of rebuild up some of that some of that metal that's been lost. What are your thoughts overall on you know, maybe where the market's been and where it's going on on kind of retouched or or restored wat |
| Unknown | ches? I mean there's a lot of people that are very motivated to promote restored watches. The whole industry itself is sort of trying to promote that because you know you talk to dealers and collectors but uh more on the dealer side and they say there's just not enough watches out there to support this whole industry of of uh people that are buying and reselling and more more exactly to support them. Yeah exactly yeah exactly, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So uh you know, the perfect interesting example of that was the sixty sixty two that was at Christie's Geneva with the relum dial um and restored case, etcetera. Uh to me that's a watch that shouldn't have sold nearly where it sold, you know, almost a million dollars after selling for three hundred thousand in uh I think uh May 2015. But um, you know, people want to promote that. Uh uh, and obviously I think there is a place for some limited but transparent restoration of watches. I'm not a big fan of all the casework because it to me ends up making it look like a sort of cyborg watch where it's like this new old stock looking case and then everything else shows where. Um if you have a watch though, for instance, that has, you know, pitting due to rust, I mean the the steel mixture they used in the nineteen forties was much more susceptible to rust from the carbon. It was a higher carbon concentration. And uh I can see sort of remediating that like you would remediate a situation in a home or in a car rust situation or something uh to to make it sort of stabilize. Um Um there's a lot of I mean the the other thing I will say that I years ago was not so I guess sympathetic to, but relooming has gotten very good of hands and the obviously there's radium and tritium floating around. Um I think when you have a watch that that does not have loom in the hands, you know, Ben's Fullerton TriCompax is a good good uh example of that, which he bought at Sotheby's, I think, in 2012. Um, a lot of people don't like the sort of skeletonized look of the hands and and these watches to me the loom I see people get very upset that the loom is out of the hands or has fallen out of the hands even while they own it if they bump into something or they drop the watch the loom falls out or a And to me, these people are ready to commit suicide if there's like a tiny hole that that their watchmaker bumps, things like that. I just think that is one of the sort of flaws of these sport watches. They w they were never meant to have the loom last five hundred years in these things. The movements can last five hundred years and the dials can last a long time and everything else, but you know, if if the watch has no loom in the hands, I'll typically, if I have a client for it, ask if they want it sort of matched. You know, it can be matched with just paint or you know tritium that looks similar to the dial and just be transparent about it. But to me that that shouldn't be the make or break thing on the watch. It's more important about everything else. How do you feel about relooming like plots? I don't like doing that at all. I know people do it for sure and then obviously do not describe it when they're selling it. Um I don't think it's that easy to do because uh you really risk scraping the dial when you're removing it. Um but uh yeah I think it's very very dangerous. It never looks right either. Usually you can see the the texture or the the way it sits on the dial isn't right. |
| Unknown | How about you Ben? Where do you stand on that? Yeah, I think preferably no reloomed anything. Yeah, of course. That's I think that there's a certain charm. I mean my my tastes have changed a lot over the last few years. Like I I now instead of buying like looking to buy the most mint examples of stuff, I'm looking to buy really good examples that I can wear kind of without too much aggravation. Um so you know I you know I I have a watch or two that probably has color matched hands probably. Um I hope I don't have anything that's be been reloomed, but I probably do somewhere in there. Um but you know I preferably, you know, at this point I I don't buy as many vintage washes as I used to, and I typically buy them from Eric or people that I that I really trust uh and I'm told that they are you know original owner or one you know one degree away from original owner. So um you know, I I I I'm buying so few vintage washes I don't uh I don't have to deal with it so much. But yeah, I mean I I understand why people would reloom. You know, in in particular on Daytonas. That that's kind of what I'm referring to. It's like the the idea that like a a Daytona, even a mint one, like unpolished will say full box papers watch is unsellable if one loom plot is bruised or missing is asinine, of course, but that's kind of the world that we're living in right now. And particular with like a lot of the younger collectors and like uh you know, the guys in in Asia, etcetera, like they want mint mint watches and they won't even look at it if if something is off. So I understand why a dealer could be compelled to just fix one lo |
| Unknown | om plot and sell it for a lot of money you know. Yep. Yeah. I mean you mentioned original owner or one step away from original owner. And it that's something that's always intrigued me. And for the longest time, I thought you know it was just sort of a fetishistic sort of thing, like, oh, it's coming from the original source, there's something romantic about that. But you know, having been around this now for a few years, I think one of the main advantages to this that people might not understand is we so often see the same watch a million times. You know, like over the last five years, there are certain watches I've seen three, four, five, six times up for sale. And by buying something that's from the original owner or that a dealer has sourced from the owner, you're avoiding all these mishaps that can happen, right? Like you're avoiding the relooming, you're avoiding the laser centering, you're avoiding having paperwork tampered with like |
| Unknown | Yeah, it's I mean the you know, those actions would have been taken by by dealers and in many cases it would have been done in the nineties or the eighties or you know the early two thousands when like there just wasn't a world that cared about it. You know, the and people just didn't care back then. It wasn't a big deal. And you know, if you if you talk about like let's take a fifteen eighteen or a twenty four ninety nine, like I would guess that three dealers in Italy have touched more than half of say the fifteen eighteen yellows in the world. Like I really mean that. You know? And so like if those guys are into fixing up cases or polishing or whatever for you know 10 years of their career, then like 50% of those washes have not issues, but have had some work done to it. And that just is. And you know, the the idea of dial swapping, you know, you have a a killer unpolished six two four one uh regular dial and then you find an amazing six two uh three nine uh Paul Newman put the dial in the six two four one, like that's just what people did. And it like it wasn't it wasn't a big deal. And you know, now like we we know those watches are in the market, we know it still happens, but if people found out they would freak out, they would explode that they they they you know have a watch that the dial's been swapped on. It it just didn't matter back then. And and that that's the biggest thing that's changed is like people expect everything to actually be untouched. And they like if they really knew what was happening, you know, over the past twenty years they would be shocked. Yep |
| Unknown | . No, it's true. And we at Christie's would have people come back with watches they bought in the nineteen nineties, even and we would say, you know, it'd be like uh Neustr 6263 with a six two three nine dial in it and other things like that, and we'd look in the records it sold in nineteen ninety-nine and there just wasn't Fortunately the watch was generally worth more than what people paid then, just given the value of the parts, but uh not worth nearly as much as they thought it was. Yeah. I mean it |
| Unknown | was it was the wild, wild west until very recently. It really was. I mean I I often actually I wrote about it in the magazine. You know, I g I love vintage Cartier like many people in this room and like to find an auth on authentic vintage Cartier, I'm talking like pre sixty nine. Impossible. Like absolutely impossible. And in many cases, these things come with documentation from Cartier archives. Yes. Which is bananas, you know? And then you know, all yeah, I obviously know people with Cartier, they'll say that watch was never made. And I'm like, but I've got a a document from Cartier Paris. And they're like, yeah, that's why we stopped doing those. Yeah. Um I mean like I mean it's not Cartier, like Patek, you know, the the archives, look, they're guys that we all know that used to pay people in the archives to produce these things. Yeah. Yep. You know? What's I mean what's twenty grand if you're talking about a million dollar watch? Yeah. Oh it's true. Yep. Right, you know? I'm just gonna get twenty grand, you get twenty grand. Gray does |
| Unknown | not get twenty grand. But uh so with all this in mind, I mean we we talked about you know how the dealers have kind of a vested interest in this and how maybe tastes are changing a little bit. D do you guys think that this is gonna end up like the car market or the art market where like restoration and making sure these things are in like quality stable condition and in some cases like aesthetically pleasing condition uh is gonna become normal just because as this thing grows and matures or do you think watches will always at least at a certain level maintain this sense of like purity and and untouched uh uh |
| Unknown | mysticism, maybe. I mean one thing that really could affect the market, and uh obviously people have toyed with it over the years as doing some sort of grading system like PSA did with baseball cards and they do with comic books and authenticating autographs and coins and currency. Th those thing those markets absolutely skyrocketed after there was sort of third party grade. Obviously it's the same with gems and jewelry, the fact you can get a grade from any number of labs uh for and determine where the stone is from. And uh that's that really affected the market. I don't know if anything's on in the works at all regarding watches. There's obviously always a lot of banter, but that could change things. But uh the key thing is of course not to to corrupt the people doing the grading and it's very hard obviously to say this watch was born with this dial. Yeah. And |
| Unknown | I think also like another market that I obviously pay attention to is collector cars and like there's been real pushback against these over restored cars. Like you know Ralph Lauren in many cases was kinda like the the patron saint of like hyper restoration, like making these things brand new. And in many cases, I mean he still has, you know, top ten car collection in the world, but a lot of these these guys have really pushed back on that. It's like these things they look like jewelry now as opposed to things that like you can get in and go out go out to dinner in, you know. Uh and so in many cases in the car world, unrestored cars that are mechanically sound uh will do better than com you know, jewelry like cars. Uh so I think the car world is changing dramatically. Meanwhile, you know, a hyper restored two fifty GTO is still worth fifty million dollars plus. It's not like you're cutting these values in half. So I I think watches will will find kind of a nice settling point where it's like pure original owner unrestored stuff is going to be great. But I think as Eric said, like, you know, you you need to have these things functional. You need the movements to work. No rust. You know, like if if the hands are about to fall off or the crown's about to fall off, like of course you want to you know, repla if you want to use it, you need to replace it. Yeah. Um you know, I I would love there to be more transparency. I mean Alex Sciani, who we all know, is kind of like the guy in restoration, at least in the United States. He was really pushing hard for it. Uh I don't know you know wh,atever really kind of came of it. Um but you know, th there are guys that really believe in it. And and I and I do get it. You know, I I kinda made the joke about like it won't support the buy the uh dealers' Ferrari buying habits, but like so many people want vintage watches right now and there just truly aren't that many. Yeah. And so to not have the joy of owning a six two three nine or six two six three because it's been reloomed or whatever, like it's is it worth it? I don't know. I think it just it's all about being transparent and people like knowing exactly what they have. And like if somebody offered me a six two three nine Paul Newman that was box papers, whatever, but it'd been reloomed, but the price was commensurate with that, I don't know. Like I I might buy it. You never know. You know, it's it's something that I would at least consider. You just wanna know exactly what it is, you know |
| Unknown | . Yeah. So before we wrap up, because we're we're running out of time here, uh, Eric, while we have you, I wanted to get can you give us three recommendations for watches that are maybe under the radar that people should look into? Watches that you're really interested in, things that you think they don't have to have huge financial upside in the future, but just like cool stuff that presents good value for somebody who wants to buy a watch that they can wear and enjoy. And preferably if you have them in the bag right there. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. E |
| Unknown | ven better. It's hard to I mean, I don't know if I could spoil a future uh hodinky article on the joy. All right, so that's still in progress. Um I mean I think that th there are watches like Nikar chronographs that are and dive watches from the nineteen sixties and seventies that are extremely interesting. Very rare. But it's as sort of things I've seen it happen with with different markets. Ben has as well. You know, Hoyer chronographs seven years ago, there were a ton around. And you could any day of the week buy different watches like Carrera's and uh Monaco's and and Otavia's, but that dried up as sort of prices went up and people began hoarding them. I think that we're still in a place where Nicars are not at that level where there's still like abundant supply of good ones. Sure. Um and another watch I really love, but it is hard to find really nice ones are Titus Calypso Mattox. And uh they're really incredible dive watches. I mean, really similar in construction and build to Rolex of Mariners. Uh I've got one from the nineteen sixties. It's got a very large crown. I mean I've had famous people like Jeff Hess uh say you know like five feet away say is that in our watch world say uh oh what is that you know he think he's thinking it's like a fifty five ten or something like his own watch, but then he looks closer and he's like, If you ever want to sell that, let me know. Uh so there's still, you know, very exciting things. I guess third uh recommendation would be Rolex Explorers, which I I really like. Um you like. Yeah, whatever. I hate those. You know, I mean uh Tudor Rangers I feel are really special and and under underappreciated and effort because there are so many fakes, it's very hard to find real ones and they're really, really cool uh as well. N |
| Unknown | ice. Good to see you. Thank you for joining us, sir. OG Hodinky crew right here. We'll have to have you back soon Thanks so much, Steve. This week's episode was recorded at Hodinky HQ in New York City and and was produced edited by Grayson Korhonen. Please remember to subscribe and rate the show, it really does make a difference for us. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next week. |