Designer Marc Thorpe, Bond's New Watch, And Auction Talk¶
Published on Mon, 9 Dec 2019 11:00:10 +0000
Talking 007, double-sealed Pateks, and how things actually get made.
Synopsis¶
This episode of Hodinkee Radio features host Stephen Pulvirent and Ben Clymer discussing several major announcements and stories from the watch world. The show begins with discussion of Hodinkee's first published book, 'Watches: A Guide by Hodinkee,' created in partnership with Assouline. The team reflects on how all of their full-time editors contributed chapters to create an approachable yet substantive primer on watches that connects timepieces to pop culture and history.
Ben and Stephen then discuss several notable watch releases and auction highlights, including the new Omega Seamaster Diver 300M 007 Edition for the upcoming Bond film, which they consider the best Bond watch ever made. They explore Jeff Stein's discovery of a previously unknown John Glenn astronaut watch - a 24-hour dial Jaeger-LeCoultre that was issued by NASA to the Mercury Seven astronauts. The conversation also covers upcoming Phillips auction lots, including significant Patek Philippe references, the Jack Nicklaus Rolex, and the Marlon Brando watch from Apocalypse Now.
The second half features Stephen's conversation with designer and architect Mark Thorpe, who discusses his philosophy of design, his relationship with watches as objects with meaning and history, and his approach to creating work that emerges from authentic relationships rather than commercial necessity. Thorpe shares stories about his personal watch collection, his design philosophy rooted in architectural theory and the concept of 'relational design,' and his recent work on sustainable, off-grid minimalist cabins. The conversation touches on themes of authenticity, craftsmanship, the importance of understanding the stories behind objects, and resistance to the overwhelming presence of technology and social media in modern life.
Links¶
Transcript¶
| Speaker | |
|---|---|
| Unknown | I just recently deleted all of my uh social apps uh on my phone. Yeah, I really sort of urge everybody to kind of do that because you know it's just it's it's killing us, you know, like as a society. We just gotta we gotta move on or at least kind of simplify and get back to basics. Um which again is sort of like that's sort of the beauty of of the timepiece, of the watch. You know, it's sort of like this is this this is as basic as it can get Hey everybody, I'm your host Stephen Polvern and this is Hodinki Radio. I was able to grab Ben to talk through a whole bunch of things that have been going on in the Hodinky universe this past week. It started off last Monday. We published our first ever book. We published it in partnership with Asseline. It's called Watches, A Guide by Hodinky. And it was really a team effort. Everyone on the editorial team banded together to write what we think is a really great kind of primer about watches. It's something if you're a diehard, you can find new things We also then talked about some stories that we published over the past week, uh everything from the release of the new 007 James Bond watch from Omega to an undiscovered astronaut watch that our friend Jeff Stein found, uh, to some pre-auction coverage. Uh Ben and I kind of dive a little deeper into the auction catalog, getting past what you would initially think of as the highlights. Then we've got my conversation with Mark Thorpe. Mark's an artist, he's an architect, he's a designer, he's somebody who's kind of hard to pin down. He thinks really deeply about things, but in a totally unpretentious way, he's a ton of fun to talk to. Uh, and he's somebody I've wanted to have on the show for a while. He's actually been mentioned on the show before, so we thought it was time to get him in the studio and hear from him firsthand. So without further ado, let's go. This week's episode is presented by Timex. Stay tuned later in the show for my conversation with Giorgio Gali, designer of the new Timex S1. For more, visit Timex. Hey man, good to see ya. Hey dude, how are ya? Good. It's uh busy week. This is like old We Work Day, it's TV again. It's uh it's old school hodinky. Except on the other side of the glass we've got what, like thirty five people working away. Uh on this floor, yeah. We have another 10 or 12 upstairs. Yeah. We've got uh it's it's Ben and Steven and then like 50 other people. Yeah yeah right exactly. Can you imagine if we tried to cram them into the We work? I feel like there's a bet there somewhere. There's definitely a bet. Right? We should get some money for from Frank that. Right. Yeah. Frank Frank is our ad sales guy, by the way. Shout out to Frank. Uh we're gonna take your money. Frank and little Frank. Frank has a little baby named Frank who's adorable. Also, yeah, true. And Frank's dad is also Frank. So. Lots Fran ofk Fran'kss. Yeah. This is the Frank cast now. He's gonna love it. Yeah. Um cool. So uh yeah, it's been a busy week here. Uh we're recording this Friday morning. Uh it's kind of gray and calm outside, uh, which is strange because in here it's like kind of chaos. But uh we started the week off with a big announcement. We did our first book. We sure did. We did a book. We sure did. Uh can you tell us so the book is uh a guide to watches. Yeah. Uh we did it with Asseline. Uh can you tell us a little bit about like how this came about? Because I think a lot of people probably don't understand like how a book happens. Yeah. I mean book books can happen any number of ways. They can be written on spec. The way that this happened was somebody from Asseline had reached out to us and we've been in talks with them or in touch with them several times over the years. Asseline, for those who don't know, is is the eminent publisher of of like the most beautiful art books and coffee table books in the world. Um so you know, I mean they're the they're they're the protec philippe of of coffee table books for sure. And so you know we were c honored to be to be contacted by them. Car and I met with them and said, Hey, you know, we want to do this book, we want to do something that is appealing to as many people as possible, um but also have enough kind of like little knowledge bombs in there to make it compelling to our core audience, which is you guys who's certainly listening to us today on the pod. Uh, and that's exactly what we did. And I think what was really important for me when I started to think about what this idea was was to make sure that all of our editors, all of our full-time editors, would have a byline. And so all of our editors, from myself even to even even you you, Steven, get away. Even me, even I got to write. Even even Steven, although even Steven, yeah. Even Steven. Stephen wrote a chapter on dress watches. He of course penned his own book last year with with Jane Stone. Uh Jack has written a book or two in the past, but everyone else, it was their inaugural run as as a as a published author in you know, for a book anyway, not not you know, just an online printed magazine. Uh so it was a really compelling uh idea and I'm happy to say we executed it really quickly. You know, there are some photographs that made their way from kind of like test runs from our magazine, but the majority of the images were actually shot for this book by us. Uh in some cases with some help some with some friends from uh from Assaline and elsewhere. But it's just a really neat thing. And again, it's it's a timeless thing, just like our magazine, where you know you'll be able to pick this thing up in 10 years, 20 years and enjoy it the the same way. Yeah. I mean I think you know, just talking to the team here uh and and thinking, you know, to a a yeargo when when I published what was my first book was the feeling of of having your name on a book is a it's a cool thing. It's a really good thing. It's uh it's a cool thing. It is. And I mean you know books I mean you know, we try to make our magazines just as lasting as books and in many cases I'd say they are. Yeah. Uh but I mean this you know, w you know, it's harder cover, uh it'll be distributed through all of Asseline's uh points of sale so they're you know, they're boutiques, they're in several of the most beautiful hotels there are, things like that. It's a wonderful moment for us to kind of celebrate all that we've accomplished over the last ten years and all that we seek to accomplish, you know, moving forward. Uh and yeah, it's it's a special thing. I mean, a a book is is a neat thing. And it's it's one of those things where look, I mean we're we're your we're an atypical digital brand, right? Like we started digital, we we're e commerce. We're gonna do retail in the coming year, we're doing a book. Like we we believe in in in the tactility. Tac is that a word? tactility Yeah,. Okay, with tactility of of things. Like, you know, holding this book in your hand like that, that feels really good. Yeah, yeah. As somebody that you know spends his days holding watches in his hand. You know, it feels very much the same way. Yeah, no, I agree. And uh you know you touched on it, but I I think one of the things I really like about this book is how approachable it is. You know, it's you know, there's a chapter on chronographs, there's a chapter on the history of watches, there's a chapter on military watches, on iconic watches, complications. Like it's a thing where there's there's kind of something for everyone. Yeah. And it's also all tied back to pop culture. So it's something that we always try to do on the web, in the magazine, and of course in this book is like these aren't just watches sitting in a case under a microscope or a loop. This is watches on people's wrists out in the real world. So you'll see those photos of Paul Newman, you'll see those photos of Steve McQueen, of Rudolph Valentino and uh, you know, Jackie Kennedy to get a sense of like how these things exist in the world, which I I think, you know, for our us makes watches more appealing to new people. And and that's something exciting. Like I always get excited when somebody can pick up our magazine and says like I didn't even know watches were a thing, but like I'm kinda into it now. Yeah, and I I think that that's and I actually say this in the opening of the book. I mean our goal has always been to get more people excited about this field than ever before. And with this book, as as you mentioned, Stephen, like the goal is to get younger guys and gals and just new people excited about what what this field means. And and that could be something very technical. It could be the engineering aspect of getting to the moon, which is something that you know we've talked about a lot, but we talk about again here. And then just you know the elegance of you know Jackie Kennedy wearing her Cartier or um Giannian Yelly wearing his Patek World timer over his, you know, suit jacket. Uh I mean like these are these are just epically beautiful moments in pop culture and you know Asseline can kind of like put a lens on moments like that better than anybody. Yeah, I totally agree. So uh yeah, so the book is out. It's available on the Hodinky shop. It's available through uh Assaline's retailers. It's called Watches, a guide by Hodinky. We'll link it up in the show notes. Uh go check it out. I think you know if you're listening to this, you'll probably enjoy it. I'm thinking you'll probably like it. Yeah, I think you'll probably like it. Yeah, it's it's called Watches. And so if you like Watches, you're gonna like it. That's that's a good ad right there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, um cool. So this episode brought to you by Watches. Exactly. Just brought to you by Watches. Exactly. Yeah. Um so we did that on Monday, but then we also published a whole ton of great stories this week, despite the fact that about half our editorial team was traveling and in various corners of the globe this week. Um but we published some really great stuff. Um speaking of pop culture tie-ins, you know, one of the biggest stories was about the new James Bond watch, uh the Seamaster Diver 300 meters 007 edition. Uh to see a filming or part of the filming of of the the latest Bond film and I got to see the watch back then. I couldn't talk about it, but I saw it back then. It's the best Bond watch they've ever done. No, no question about it. Uh it is full titanium. The mesh bracelet is amazing. Uh it just it wears wonderfully. Uh broad arrow, military insignia. Like they they really paid attention on this one. And what's neat about this one is that it is uh limited production but not limited edition. So that's something that always kind of comes up with the Bond stuff. It's like okay, like is 7,000 and 7 units really limited? What's funny is it actually is, because I remember somebody at Omega very high up telling me that that they did seven thousand units of not the last one, one before, and they had twenty five thousand people that wanted to buy it. So I mean that means you're you're turning away a lot of money right? You're turning around like fourteen, fifteen thousand people from or more from uh from buying this seven thousand dollar watch. So what they're doing with this one is, you know, they're gonna trickle it out, you know, a lot like they do with other products, not like many brands do with other products. Like it's going to be difficult to get for sure. Um, but it's going to be around for a little while. I would guess at least until the next Bond film. I don't know that. Um but they nailed it. I mean uh a again, no, I I'm a fan of the the one from Spectre as well. I in fact have one of those watches in titanium, the Sea Master 300. Yeah. This one is uh it feels like the watch that that Bond should be wearing for sure. Yeah, so it's it's a C Master 300. It's got that helium escape valve up at uh 10 o'clock, but it's titanium, uh it,'s super lightweight. The bracelet, like you said, is awesome. Um, the case back engravings are also really cool. Yeah. Uh I'm really into it. Um, it's got these kind of like it's got that broad arrow, and then it has what look like essentially military serial numbers. Right. And the it's it's slash sixty-two, right? So sixty-two is of course the year that that Dr. Noah, the first James Bond film, came out. Yeah, it's uh it's a super cool thing. I mean, I I think uh Omega's really paying attention. I mean, we've talked about this before, but like they care what the enthusiasts care about. And that's that's a cool thing. It's nice to see a watch brand really say like, okay, we we want to listen to our customers and we want to have that kind of like two-way interaction instead of just like handing people a a group of watches every year and saying like take it or leave it. Yeah. Um one thing that that people did question is the price on this watch. Uh it's a little bit higher than on previous bomb watches. It's price is it's ninety two hundred dollars uh US on the bracelet. Yeah. Um which sure it's a little bit more than some of the bomb watches, but I have to say having seen it in the metal, like that feels totally appropriate. It does, and I think if you also consider the fact that it's completely titanium So titanium is much harder to work with, it's much rarer in the watch world. Um you know, I mean speaking about the watch that I currently own, you know, the C Master 300 in titanium, that's nine thousand, right? Right. The same watch in steel is six thousand eight hundred. You know, so I mean there there is that premium of working with with titanium. And the titanium of of the Bond watch is this mesh bracelet, which I would imagine, I don't know, but I would imagine would be very difficult to make. Uh so you know, I I think it's really easy to assume that like there's this premium because of bond or whatever. My guess is it's more associated with with materials. I mean, we saw it when we did our IWC with seritanium. Like that costs money. You know, like to do it in steel is easy, but like to do it with a material that like basically nobody uses, like that stuff, like you know, you have to remachine stuff you have to redo stuff. And titanium, you know, Mega doesn't use titanium for that much stuff. Uh so like, you know, it's just you know I mean people get how this stuff works, but like there are economies of scale. If you're doing like fewer products in titanium, it's gonna cost more. Yeah. Totally. Uh you know, one of the I'm I'm looking at the article we published that uh James shot and wrote for us uh and styled with like a camel colored sweater and like a chambray shirt, like this watch is mean looking. Yeah. It's it's people are gonna like it. And you know, we we've seen it in the metal, uh we had it here in the office the other day for James to shoot. It's it's solid. Like it's it's gonna be a seller for sure. And it's the Bond twenty five watch. Indeed. B twenty five. So I think long term there might be some uh collectibility here too. I think so. Uh so we have a different kind of like cool guy watch uh that was written about uh our friend Jeff Stein from uh on the dash. Jeff Stein's the coolest guy I know. Jeff Stein's the man. Yeah,. You know Jeff, Jeff occasionally texts me and is just like, hey, I have an idea for a story. Are you guys interested? Yeah. It'll be 4,000 words. Yeah. But invariably, it's about something awesome that I had like no idea existed. That that that that is the position that Jeff Stein occupies in most of our lives. Yeah. Uh so for those of you who don't know Jeff, I would imagine many do, he's the founder of On the Dash, which is the Hoyer Forum. He is a Harvard educated attorney, you know, world class lawyer down in Atlanta. Uh he runs several miles a day. He's a mini Cooper collector. He's a bike a diehard baseball fan. Like the guy can do anything. He really can. Including discover some amazing watches. Yeah. And so uh we've been talking about this story, he and I, for I guess probably a year now, about uh the watches of John Glenn, the astronaut, the first American to orbit the Earth. Yeah. Um, basically as cool as he gets. I would say. Um, and we've been trying to figure out how to how to do it, and then you know, a couple of John Glenn's watches are coming up for sale at Phillips next week, which is something we'll talk about more in a minute, but uh we decided now was now was the right time. So Jeff wrote this amazing in-depth story for us. We'll link it up in the show notes uh about his hunt for John Glenn's watches. Yeah. Uh so John Glenn passed away and his family decided to sell everything through an estate sale. Yeah. Like he was just like some guy living in suburban America. Yeah. Um was it Baltimore or somewhere? I think so, yeah, yeah. And uh yeah, and watches were included. So instead of going to Phillips or Christie's or Sotheby's to sell these things, they just sold them for like all things considered not a ton of money. Right, like on like on a ta like on John Glenn's table, like in his living room. Yeah, yeah. Uh and uh Jeff was able to buy some watches. Yeah. Um and you know, like we said, a couple are coming up for auction but but not Jeff's um and one of the watches he discovered is a watch that we didn't know existed before. Uh it's a twenty four hour dial La Coultra um watch and it's just like it's an unknown astronaut watch. Yeah, and what's amazing is well, there's so many amazing things about this story. The first is that the Glenn family just decided to sell everything via like some random estate company in suburban Maryland, we'll say. Uh and uh that just goes to show you like that this can still happen. Like John Glenn is like an actual American like he's a worldwide hero, but certainly in the US. For sure. Uh and like the these these watches, in particular the Brightling, have like real value, like tangible value. And so I've got many thoughts about this. The the idea that somebody found this and bought it and is now selling it via Phillips is a bit of a bummer. Like you kind of wish that that watch had gone to somebody that just loved John Glenn and would keep it forever. I totally understand. Like this is just triage. Somebody bought it for a low, I'm assuming a very low dollar amount and will now sell it for a very high dollar amount. It is what it is, it happens all the time. Sure. Uh wish it had a different story, but say lovey. Uh but I think, you know, as as you mentioned, Steven, what was so amazing about Jeff's story is that he discovered not only a new astronaut watch, but a watch that was issued. Right? Like like NASA issued these eight LaCult watches. Uh seven to the Mercury seven astronauts and then I think an additional eighth to the the administrator of the program or something. Uh and this is this is a new fact. And like, you know you know,, shame on us, we kind of buried the lead there in some ways. Like, Jeff's story is so complete and so amazing. But like, this is big news in the watch world. The fact that that Lacolte was producing a watch for an asset with a special dial, 24 hour dial. I assume the movement was a 24 hour movement as well. It wouldn't just be a you know a standard movement. Uh and like there are photos of of him wearing this watch with Jack Kennedy. Uh there's a photo of his uh colleague Scott Carpenter wearing one, I think, on the cover of Time or Yeah, I think so. I mean it's really this is wild. And I think everybody assumed that this watch was just like a personal object of any one of these astronauts, but they were in fact issued by NASA. Uh pre-Speedmaster, of course I mean very you know very different watch than uh than the Speedmaster. Um but I think that's just an amazing thing. And you know it it would be Jeff Stein to discover something like this. Yeah, of course it would be of course uh but pretty neat thing and you know what what's amazing is I don't think Jeff has reached out to Jaeger just yet. Uh maybe we should help him do that on or on his behalf. We we can we can get access to the archives uh and see what the real story is with these watches. But it's pretty neat. Yeah, it's cool stuff. So if if you haven't read the story by now, uh go check it out. If you're listening to this on the website, it'll be down below. If you're listening to it uh on on your phone, um check it out in the show notes. Uh this is really like a can't miss story. Yeah, it's also a neat follow-up to Cole Pennington's The Watch that came in from the Cold. I mean it's got similar vibes to that. Yeah, it does actually. I hadn't thought about that. Yeah, kinda like you know, airmen type of thing uh for the US military or whatever. That's true. You know, it's uh it's it's a neat follow-up for sure. Yeah. Um so going on to the auctions, you know, like we said, this this LaCult isn't coming up for auction, but uh but another one that looks a lot like it is. Yeah was from John Glenn's estate. True. The Lucky Thirteen Watch. The Lucky Thirteen Watch. So uh this watch I wrote a story that uh published just a few hours ago, so uh you know by the time you're listening to this last week. Um and it's this really strange gold cap or gold fill watch where all of the new roles are 13. Lucky 13. It was presented to him by the Anti-Superstition Society of Chicago on Friday the 13th in 1962, just a couple months after he orbited the Earth. Um and kind of the tie-in here is that his capsule that he orbited in was capsule number thirteen. So for John Glenn, thirteen became a lucky number for the rest of his life. Um and so this watch is just like it's a really strange little like weird yeah But it w it was his watch. It was his watch. What's neat also is that so the Phillips auction takes place next week and next Friday is Friday the thirteenth. True story. So if you buy this watch, you could wear it on Friday the thirteenth. You probably should. And if you do, you let us know, we'll put it on our Instagram. Yeah, please do. Yeah. If you are listening to this and then buy the watch, definitely hit us up. Um But some of the other watches in the sale outside of John Glenn's watches, um, you know, I I looked through the catalog and there's also, you know, the Brando watch and the Nicholas watch, which you know, I guess while while we're talking about them, like what what are you anticipating for those watches? I think pretty big numbers. I mean this is it's Phillips, it's New York, it's uh it's the time when people want to spend some money, you know. And I think you know these two guys, you know, this is not Paul Newman, so don't even you know, let's not talk about twenty million dollars or even ten. Uh but I think you know Marlon Brando, and this is a incredibly iconic, you know, film, one of you know top ten I would say. Yeah many of course. Uh that and Jack Nicholas is, you know, if you're into golf, he's Michael Jordan of golf, you know? I mean much more so than Tiger Woods. Like he's holds the most majors of of anybody. Yeah. I mean he's one of the great athletes of the twentieth century. I mean, you know, he has been right up there. He's been he's sat next to Muhammad Ali at I think ESPN's uh athletes of the century. Like it's this is real stuff. You know. Um so I you know, and the golf community is a famously wealthy one, uh, which is why Rolex, Omega, etcetera advertised so heavily there. I would expect a serious result from that. You know, we obviously just kind of discovered the watch with the talking watches two or three years ago. Yeah. And in in chats with Jack, you know, we he had asked my opinion on what he should do with it, and I said donate it. You know, put it up at auction, donate it for charity with Phillips, of course. Um, I would have loved to see the opportunity to play with Jack. Yeah. And you know, he was like, ah, you know know, I don't. And then you know, I this is kind of behind the scenes stuff, you know, when we were down on his house filming, he said, Well, what about Augusta? Like, what if I played around at Augusta with the winner of the watch? And I was like, At that point, it could be a ten million dollar watch. You know, to play to play Augusta, which for those of you don't know golf is like it's mecca. You know, it's like you just it's also it's not the number one golf course on the planet, but it is certainly the most difficult to get onto. And it's where they hold the masters every year. Jack won the masters I think six times. Like he's the guy. So to be able to play Augusta period. I and people have have paid a million dollars just to play Augusta. So to play it with Jack Nicholas, who's won the Masters more than anybody with the watch would be I mean it would be beyond. Unfortunately that's not the case. So so we've just talked about an awesome thing that is not happening. It should have happened. You know, and again, I'm sure there's there's issues with with the this idea, otherwise it would have happened. But yeah, the the watch on its own with a full d like the full amount goes to uh Jack's charity down in Florida. I believe Phillips takes nothing on it as as they typically do. Uh you know, I think this will do really well. I mean, you know, I know some folks in the golfing community that are really excited about it. Uh and then, you know, I think I think we'll we're talking seven figures for both of them, but who knows? I agree. What I originally wanted to talk about though were some of the like lesser known watches. Yeah. You know, one of the things that that struck me flipping through cat thealog was there are a handful of sealed paddocks in this sale, which you really don't see too often anymore. Yeah. Um, so for people who don't know, uh, when you buy a Patek Philippe watch, there are two seals on it, like when it leaves the factory, right? There's there's an outer seal on the box. It's this little piece of blue tape with a bunch of like Calatrava crosses on it. That's the quality control seal. So once that goes on, that means it's it's ready for sale. And then the watch, when it's finished by the watchmakers, is put in this sealed sort of like plastic, almost like vacuum pouch. So you can have a paddock can be open, it can be single sealed where the bag is intact, but the blue tape has been broken, or it can be double sealed where both the bag and the blue tape are are intact. Yeah. Uh there's a couple of single sealed watches in this sale, which is cool because you in theory can't get sealed watches anymore. Correct. You know, now just like with Rolex, like Rolex used to sell you a watch or the dealers would sell you a watch with the warranty card blank. Right. That does not occur anymore. Yeah. Uh for obvious reasons. Uh Patek, as Steven just said, you can no longer take your watch home sealed. It was common for 5970s, split seconds, stuff like that to be sealed because like it's basically just money in the bank, you put it in the back of your safe and then sell it down the road or whatever. Right. Um, no longer the case. We want you know, brands want people to wear their watches. So yeah, the 5950 that you called out in the story, I mean that's among my favorite modern watches, period. People do not understand the difference between that and the 5370, which is also a favorite. Yeah. The 5370 is an amazing thing, but it's basically a 5170 with a split second module built on top. Right. What happens with a 5950 is this is a fully integrated, super slim split second. I mean, it is just it's a different level. I mean it's really two to three levels above. It is also two to three times more expensive. Correct. I mean, this is like a four or five hundred thousand dollar retail watch. Can you explain the watch to people just in case people don't know what watch we're talking about? So it's it's a rectangular split mono pusher split second chronograph inspired by a watch from I think the thirties that we actually have photos of on the site. Yeah. Um and it's in stainless steel. Uh they now do it in gold as well. Uh it's got these kind of like decoy, kinda like weird uh you know, the Gary Getz calls it the cowboy watch 'cause it's almost like a Western theme. Yeah, it's like these scrolling scrolling kind of weird things. It's not my favorite, to be honest with you. Um but uh the watch is epic. I mean this and this is a sleeper. This is not like everybody knows not everybody but many people know what a 5970, you know, 5004R stuff like that. They know how much they cost. Most people do not understand what this watch is. I've loved it for many years because I love chronographs, I love splits. It's so slim and it's steel and it's not a fifty-nine seventy. So people don't, you know, don't really know or appreciate kind of how special it is, but it is far more rare, far more special and far, more interesting than than anything else. Yeah, I agree. Um I mean the estimate on this guy is one sixty to three twenty. Slow. I was gonna say that feels really low to me. I'm a buyer all day at one sixty. Are you? Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. I mean th this is a watch that I mean not not really actually, but I I have no money. But uh uh you know, if if I had money at one sixty, that is a no brainer. I mean that is that's half the price of retail probably. Uh you know, I think retail's in the fours. And it is worth, you know, if you if you're a lover of real high end watch making, like the best of the best, this is it. And I think, you know, Patek in many ways has been getting kind of a bum rap recently because all the Nautilus stuff like this is not their doing. You know, and when, you know yeah there there are other people that I that I would say make better watches below say 150 to 200,000 Langa being cheap among them Batron's right up there like Bashron is just as high quality as any Pat tech for sure uh but once you get to that four or five hundred thousand dollar range, which I know sounds ridiculous, uh tech comes into a w a league of their own. They have so many SKUs that nobody talks about because they're all application pieces, they're not in stores, they're not anywhere. The alymost don't even communicate about them at Basel. It's they blow people away. And you know the 5950 is is chief among them for me. Yeah. You know, you mentioned Nautilus craziness and that that was another one that struck me here is there the first lot of this sale like, Phillips is gonna come right out of the gate and sell a sealed fifty seven eleven A. Yeah. Uh it's estimated at twenty to forty thousand, which is like a complete joke of an estimate. Uh that's retail. Right. And retail's like thirty grand. Right. Like, what what do you think this goes turn on? I have no idea. It's I I you know I don't pay attention to this market because I just don't care, but I know like a lot of my friends do, and uh, they've told me things have softened a little bit. It all depends on what this person wants to do with it. If you want to wear it, you know, I think 60. You know, if you want to sit on it, 70, you know, I I think you know, not anything more than that would be extreme. Um, but it'll do well, obviously. You know, I know people that are paid in the 60s for these watches. Uh I think what is more interesting about the Nautilus offerings in in this sale is that they've got two fifty-seven eleven Ps. Yeah. Uh that was gonna be my next one. Yeah, the so the anniversary watch, which is Diamond Markers, you know, fortieth anniversary stamp right on the dial. And then to me, kind of the holy grail of modern Nautilus's which is the unstamped, the non-anniversary 5711P. Yeah. Of which there are, you know, really a handful known. So there's, I think, both those watches, the the the non-47th anniversary one, will fly. These do not come up for sale. That watch in platinum on your wrist is amazing. I'd actually never seen one in the metal. I'd seen the anniversary ones. Uh I'd never seen the plain 5711. It's such a baller too. It is so cool, man. Oh man. Again, that is like, you know, in instead of buying that, I bought the rose gold one, which I love. Yeah. Uh and that's a great watch, and I'll never sell it. But the the P would have been something special for sure. But you know, it was literally double the price. And I was like, well, you know, who missed this, you know. Uh going away from Paddock for a second, um, a watch that you you have sung uh you've sung its praises pretty pretty highly uh over the last couple of weeks. Uh the Erwork AMC, the atomic Irwork. Yeah, it's fine. Uh but they've got one of these. Uh it's estimated at one to two million. It's number one. Uh Urwork said they're only gonna make three. This is number one. It's the first one to come up for sale. I'll be really curious to see what interest is on this. It's actually selling right after the 5950A. It's a lot eight. It's pretty early in the sale. It'll be kind of an interesting moment, I think, in the auction. Yeah, it's so weird. It's a weird thing, but it is an amazing thing, as I've said many times. Uh I'm curious about the consignment of this one. Like did this come from somebody who bought it and then sold it or is this coming directly from Urwork? I think it's coming from Urwork. I would have to check. I would guess so. But I think it's coming from Urwork. Um that would make more sense because I just can't see somebody buying something this strange and then selling it this quickly. But that would be interesting to know for sure. Yeah. Uh but yeah, I I think it's one of the coolest things made in the past 10 years of watchmaking, truly. It's not my, you know, it's not my aesthetic. It's like a little bit too Iron Man y like Tony Starkey for me. But it's it's an amazing thing. And you know, if if they could if if some if like Laurent Ferrier could style this product, uh I'd be all about it. You know what I mean? Okay. So you want an atomic clock watch, but that looks like a super classic watch. Yeah, exactly. Okay. Yeah. You could probably you know a couple guys, you could probably get that made. Yeah, yeah. Probably. Yeah. Again, it's the money thing. This is like this is like what a one to two million dollar estimate. Yeah. One to two million dollar estimate. That's a lot. I'll be I'll be very curious to see what the bidding on this is like because it there's gotta be like three guys who actually want to own this, but they've gotta really want it. You gotta really want it. Yeah, you gotta really want it. Yeah. Um cool. I mean, there's there's a bunch of other cool stuff in this catalog. If you haven't seen it, go check it out. The sale's Tuesday night in New York, five PM Eastern. Uh we're gonna be covering it live. But you should go check the catalog out. I I think, you know, for me this is one of those sales where the Brando watch and the Nicholas watch kind of like drowned everything else out. Yeah. Which is kind of a shame because I think this is actually one of the more interesting Phillips catalogs in a while. Yeah, I I really like the New York sales because it's a there's a little bit less fanfare. It's a little bit more pure in in my humble opinion. There's some great watches there. Like, you know, what I'm I'm really seeing a an uptick in interest in vintage Patek. You know, Rolex was just so intense and so full on for so many years now. It's just like, all right, like kind of enough. You you know know,? How many guilt GMTs are you gonna see? How many blueberries are you gonna see or whatever, you know? And so like they've got some killer, you know, I'm not talking crazy money watches, but expensive certainly, like they've got a beautiful five six five that looks dead mint with a luminous luminous dial, uh, unpolished case. They've got a five thirty chronograph, which I've been been intending to write about for like three weeks and just never have. Uh it's a great watch. Um you know, rare stuff that like to me, when you put you know, let's say the five thirty sells for two hundred grand. Like put that next to a Paul Newman. Like five thirty every day of the week. No question about it. Five six five is probably, you know, fifty to sixty grand, maybe more. It 'cause of the condition. Put that next to I don't know, you know, guilt sub a guilt sub. Like, are you kidding me? Like it's not you can't even can't even compare you know and I know that the you know that watch is cool because it's steals so you can wear that just like a Rolex. Uh it doesn't have the same kind of perceived wearability but like I've owned five six five so you can put them on you know uh a uh pizza rice bracelet and wear them every day. Yeah so I would encourage people to take a look at those lots for sure. Yeah. Also I mean it is super high end. It's I think the highest estimated lot in the sale. Uh the pink on pink fifteen eighteen. That's amazing. Ooh man I mean I mean that that that''s as a grail watch. I don't know this I haven't really done my homework. Is it is this like a new watch? Is this a fresh to market? Uh I haven't actually I I didn't look that deep into the catalog uh but we'll have to take a look. Um but it's a pretty pretty amazing piece. Look, I mean fift fifteen eighteen is you know, ask John Goldberger, if you could have one watch, I would almost guarantee he'd say fifteen eighteen. In fact, I think he may have said that to us in the past. Um you know, it is it is everything that a vintage watch should be and pink gold alone is amazing, and then pink dial, like you know, it's that's a sexy thing. Again, we're talking very limited buyer uh group here because this is gonna be a multi-million dollar watch. Yeah, it's one point two to two point four is the estimate. Uh so and the people that want them probably already have them, but you know, we'll see. We'll see. Yeah. Awesome. Thanks, man. We'll uh we'll wait and see what the auctions hold next week and uh we'll have you back soon. Sounds good. Thanks. Thanks, man. Up next, my conversation with designer and architect Mark Thorpe. We should record this. We are we recording. Some of that some of that could be good. Um that's fun. Uh good to see you though. Yeah, no, thank you, man. Yeah. No, this is super you've been traveling around the world too, right? Yeah, I mean always. I mean, you know, I tr I you know, I try to try to move around as much as possible. Yeah, typically it's uh it's normally work related, you know. Um yeah, I mean uh yeah last week I was in um in Venice. Okay. Um, Udine and uh Poland, just kinda like moving around, just yeah, just working on stuff. Yeah. You know. Did you avoid the floods in Venice? Yeah, ironically, it was it like so we were we were on Murano um working working with Venini and also uh um this other company uh Nizomeretti and they um they uh the were developing some some product there and the waters started to rise just as we were kind of leaving. Okay. The weather got kinda a little little shittier. So so we uh we we were fortunate that we were able to kind of get everything that we needed to do there with everybody and hang out before the shit hit the fan. Yeah. Can you curse on this thing? Yeah, yeah, you can curse. That's fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh you know, it won't be too aggress Yeah, no, that's that's fine. This is uh this is an I would say all ages-ish podcast. Fair enough. Um but yeah, it's alright. Fair enough. Um I think we've had one episode that got an explicit tag, uh courtesy of Ben, but uh Perfect. I think that's the only one. Perfect. If the boss man's doing it, it's it's okay. Um I mean you said that you you were in Venice working with some some partners. Can can you explain maybe a little bit what you do for people who might not understand what it means to be a designer, which I'm putting in in scare quotes? Well, you know, honestly, like you know, I I've I was having this conversation earlier around this notion of like defining myself as a designer or even an architect, and honest like I I'm really kind of falling more into this camp of just sort of I mean and I don't know how arrogant this might sound, but this you know, kind of leaning more towards just being an an an artist. Um you know, because the work is really coming from like the soul in in so many ways, you know, like every project that every project that that's worked on is typically um is typically a passion project, you know um versus like you know, versus working to pay bills or to facilitate studio or make payroll or any of that stuff. So so in a in a lot of ways I kinda sort of I'm starting to kinda like lean away a little bit from calling myself just a designer or an architect or or what have you. You know, and and creative, you know, creative also is sort of a a bit ambiguous to me. You know, you kind of hear a lot of that talk and um in like agencies yeah it's like there's you know the E C D and like this stuff it's like well what does that mean? You know so I don't know I've kind of like sort of for me personally kind of position myself a little bit more in terms of like um almost like an actor or you know like I always thought it was like we were always it was a little bit of a joke but it was sort of like you know like what would it be like if you were like Daniel Day Lewis of design, you know, or something like that. You know, or just sort of like you you just kinda show up and randomly table. Yeah. Yeah. And then you like design something and then you leave, you know, and then you kind of like fade away for a little bit and you come back and do something. Yeah. I don't know, like like something along those lines was kinda interesting to me. But that speaks to how how diverse your work is, right? Like you're you're not somebody who makes just lighting or just furniture or just uh buildings, right? Like you you kinda do everything. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I mean I don't know how how good or bad that is, you know. Um, I mean, obviously if you specialize in something, like people will come to you specifically for that. So I think by having that sort of multidisciplinary approach, uh, you you know know, sort of lend yourself a little bit more towards, you know, like trying to um you know keep it more personal and you know uh more specific. Yeah. You know, so so, you know, like for me, I I was was always more interested in in in developing relationships, you know, like even this right now is actually really nice. And this relationship by the way comes from um any archibonk who do I'd like to just sort of like plug from inheritance like you know, because any any any is is a long time friend and um and so you know just want to thank him for uh letting this happen. Because I've been a huge fan of Hudinki. So also thank you for allowing this opportunity to be here um with But yeah, for me it was it was you know my my interest in terms of design or or any sort of you know um creative facet of of of that world is is really sort of based in in relationships and sort of developing those um you know which is a a little bit of more of a long term uh understanding of of things. You know it's it's about it's about people, you know, like ultimately. Yeah. And um it's not about producing stuff. You know, like I I don't have that many things produced, you know, like you know, at you know, at forty one now. But um but ultimately it's like you know the stuff that is produced is of is very specific to me. Uh it's a personal um sort of story. Um uh and uh and and the people that I worked with, you know, are directly tied to those pieces and but those are it's almost like the products are actually by products. They're they're not they're by products of a relationship that sort of occurred or and happened. Yeah. You know, versus just just designing for design sake, which which um again sort of sets me uh apart in in so many ways, you know. So I I don't know how financially uh Um you know, good that is but in terms of in terms of running a business, but but uh but you know, at le at least at least at least I got integrity. You know, no but it's sort of the thing. It kinda gets it kind of relates to the watches too, right? In so many ways. It's like, you know, every w and we you know, so we brought some some of my stuff. Um, but you know, like those those watches all have a story, you know, like they're all sort of connected to a particular moment or a thing or something you know, something that happened or you know, again sort of various stages in life where maybe you've achieved something and you're sort of like, well, you know what, I'm gonna um you know 'cause I I'm very passionate about time pieces, so so why not, you know, um try to try to uh take care of one again. Yeah. You know, you know, and I'm always I'm very much in that camp of like I don't own those. Like I'm just sort of like the caretaker for a certain period of time 'cause they're gonna move on. Yeah. I mean most of 'em are all pre owned anyways, which is which is cool. Except for that uh Explorer that was purchased uh from Rolex. There's a good story behind that watch, right? Yeah, I mean it was a nice yeah, it was a nice story only because it was it was like this m you know, and again, you know what's actually really interesting too is that like every every single one of those watch like for the most part I was like flat broke right so yeah which is kind of like a that's a common watch guy thing right it's yeah is it I don't know but I mean it's for for me it's kind of like one of those one of those things where you know you know it's uh it it's more uh it's more symbolic of of a particular accomplishment. And you know, it's again like I I I sort of define success, you know, in terms of like actually doing ver versus, you know, there's no financial, there's no financial uh connection to it. It's it's more about just doing. Um so like each store each one has like I did that, you know? And so like maybe I can I can take care of another one of those watches, which is kind of cool. Um but yeah, so the Rolex was was it I that was actually for my 35th birthday. Um I was with my wife in um in uh in Paris and and so and I had talked about it because I think that one had just come out, the the explorer one, the new the new version, and so it was uh it was relatively new. So you know, in terms of its like kind of revamp, so I was sort of like, Oh man, I want to just check it out. So I went there, sat down with them, and and you know again like they like the store was empty, it was in Place Vendome, so it was like very, very prestigious, you know, sort of uh environment. And uh and so yeah, like I sat down, they brought it out, we look at it, and then you know, there's this moment where it's just like oh so is it a special occasion I'm like, yeah it's my birthday they're like oh shit like y they didn't say that but they were but of course shit uh it's the the Rolex way right. Right. The Rolex Way. And they they brought out like, you know, the champagne and the this and and uh and they even brought me this like little um I think it's all you that but they brought me this little box, you know, and then in that sort of mint colored uh packaging. And I opened it up. And this this is this is before the purchase, right? So like none of that none of that was so there was no commitment yet. And uh but it was a beautiful leather wallet, you know, from from Roller. And I know how collectible that stuff is, like as a as the time goes on, is sort of like you know, I remember that time when Rolex made those wallets. Um, and uh so they they gave that to me again with absolutely no commitment, and you know, they're just like, All right, we'll see you later, and I'm just like, what are you talking? Like, all right, fuck it. Let's just buy this thing. So but in order in order to like to purchase a watch, typically, you know, um something has to be sold. So like I've come in and out of stuff, you know, for years. So it'd always kinda like buy and sell and trade. And it was never really like uh well I honestly I could never really afford to I could never afford to have like a collection, you know, but you know, those are the ones that have sort of like kinda stood the test of time. Um or or you know you know uh sort of life life matters. But um but uh yeah but they're all they're all relatively special. This week's episode is brought to you by Timex. I had the opportunity to sit down with Giorgio Gali, creative director for Timex Group, on the eve of the launch of the Giorgio Galli S1 Automatic, the brand's all-new automatic watch. He offered some great insights into the history of the brand and how the design came about. Here are a few snippets from our conversation. So how did you initially get into wat |
| Unknown | ches and then ultimately watch design. I've been a designer and lover of watches for over 30 years. Italians love watches and have a unique passion for it. I'm not sure why but it's part of the culture. But my love for watches comes from my love and appreciation for design. Part of me always was interested in how we can make even a simpler curve become a beautiful graphic element. In your mind, what are the essential elements of a well-designed watch proportion proportion is so important especially in watches it's a small object but it's also an intimate object you wear it under your wrist and your skin so find the correct proportion, it's absolutely critical. Of all the brands you've designed for, what's distinct about Timex? Well, I've been working for many brands in watches, but Timex definitely one of the brand I really liked the most for a simple reason that it's a true brand, authentic. As an history that always fascinates me. The history of the brand build the story. So their cultural and historical part really helps to understand what you're looking at and what you're wearing you know so the product has a great influence from from the past |
| Unknown | . The S1 is such a distinct offering from Timex relative to many of the brand's other designs. What were your guiding |
| Unknown | principles for this project? The S1 is a combination of my experience in designing watches, the DNA of the brand, and my view of what the watch should be. And I really wanted to create something timeless, which could have been designed 10 years ago or 10 years from now, and still modern. There are not that many watches that have that timeless design. I mean you see a lot of beautiful watches but sometimes overdesigned overdone. The S1 I think combine my view of how the watch should be and how actually she'll relate to you. For more on the Giorgio Galli S |
| Unknown | 1 automatic, visit timex.com. Alright, let's get back to the show. So you've got let's go through the the box here. So we've got the explorer and then we've got a sub. Mm-hmm Where does the sub come from? The sub the sub the sub was like, you know, that was actually something that I just wanted because I, you know like, it's one of those iconic pieces that you just yeah, everybody, you know, all guys have to have a sub. Now, I've come in and out of various Rolexes before, but I you know, I never I never owned a submariner, and so I thought it would be interesting to like at least try to like go back and or at least try to find one. You know, so I try to find an older one. It's like a mid-90s. And uh that was kind of banged up. And so I was able to get it to Rolex and then have it, you know, restored and you know, they looked at it and they they were like, You gotta do this, this, this, this and this, this and this and that and I was like, Can we just do like half of that? You know, they're like, Yeah, yeah, okay. So um but yeah, so that that one in particular was um so that one and and the Patek were both um sort of purchased around the same time, which again that was more equated to my fortieth birthday. Okay. So I kind of like got to that point and I was sort of like, I'm gonna do something special for it. Yeah. And of course I didn't stop. So yeah. So that happened. And so the Patek is what you have on your wrist right now. Yeah, that's the fifty two ninety-six. Yeah. With the sector dial. It's a great watch. I'm gonna take it off and just just hand it over here to you. But yeah. Yeah, I know you've seen that. I love this watch. Yeah. I mean it's just so good. Discontinued uh as um pr relatively recently. Yeah, not that long. So you know, that's kinda nice. Yeah. Um I don't know. I think it was just really about the case size that was sort of got me. I was kinda like, wow, I can actually like get a pet tack that's you know, got a little more meat to it and you know something that something I can wear, you know, almost every day without having to worry about it. Um yeah. And again for for me pet tech is one of those that's a obviously you know you know okay we we just call it the best in the world but you know like the it's more the history that's sort of that always gets me you know and that's sort of my that's where my um appreciation of to watchmaking it really lies is just the history and you know, the stories of like how these companies came about and the technology and the the the attention to detail and the quality and and all that is really really the most important thing. So so um but to own a patek is obviously uh or to you know sorry take care of a patek is actually really the uh that's kind of the thing. You know um it's almost like you're you're it's a it's it's a privilege just to sort of take care of this thing for a period of time and then pass it down. Um but uh yeah and again like you know I didn't I didn't that would yeah blew me away. Yeah. You know, like th those are like one of those again, you know, you when you you get dig into the history of all of that stuff, it's like you know, Petex Polish. It's one of those companies that has such a such a strange kind of like meandering history. And today we think of it as this kind of like monolith, you know? Same thing with Rolex. Like you think of Rolex, and it's like boom, it's Rolex, it was always there, it will always be there. Yeah, it's unchanging, it is what it is. Uh and it's it's fun when you look into the history of these companies and you find the little the little things, you know? Yeah. No, absolutely. Yeah, 'cause they I mean they all have they all have stories, you know, and these guys that that established those companies, they were all they were all out there, you know, hustling for a dream, yeah, to make something happen. Right. You know, IWC is a great example of that too. You know, so um, you know, you it it it's just you you you have that sort of connection to it as as as as like a New York New York City hustler. Yeah. You know, like trying to get you know, get get your work made and you know, like you can you can connect to to to a lot of a lot of the same stories that the the founders had and and the people that work there, you know, it's it's it's it's special stuff. You know, and it's more than the object itself. That's sort of the thing that's always what what what gets me. Yeah. You know. Yeah, one of the things I I I think, you know, kind of looking at these watches together is they're they're from historic brands. They're from brands that have real kind of like manufacturing know-how. You know, these aren't you know brands that are kind of buying in all their components and slapping a label on them. Um, they all have a certain like cleanliness and clarity to them. You know, even even the JLC geographic is considering how much that watch does, it's extremely legible and kind of clean um the Portuguese chronograph, uh the black seal panorai. Like these are all like very clean presentable watches. Is is that something that happened purposefully or is it just kind of a a consequence of your of your taste? Uh b well I guess both, right? Um yeah, I mean I've again I I've sorta I come in and out of of different different timepieces over over the years. Um and and you know, like over over the years you sort of start to, you know, figure out kind of like who you are as a person and you start to realize like wait a minute, you know, like you know, th this actually reflects more of like who I am and my personality. Um and again, guys guys don't have much to go on, you know what I mean? I mean, I mean unless you're you know, I mean, I I'm not a big fashion person, so you know, like I'm pretty much of a minimalist when it comes to that. So I'm like you know, this sort of standard uniform of like you, know, b,lack black shirt top, black, you know, jeans, black boot, like that's you know, that's kinda it. Yeah. You don't have to think about it in the morning. So the only way you can kinda mix it up for me, really, hon honestly, is is really like the the time piece. So it's sort of like, well, I got I got that, you know. So um but yeah, I mean yeah, like ultimately the col this little collection that I have here is is extremely edited, you know, over over the years and um and the design of each piece um i is also edited in itself, you know, so it's really as sort of like as streamlined and basic as you can get. Um that's also something that I've loved about Patak is that it's always very like subdued and subtle, yeah, quiet, um, humble, you know, like in in all actuality, which I which I love, you know, which is this is sort of like, you know, it's it's it's not about like it's all about what's going on inside, you know it's about the movement ultimately and the history behind the timepiece in itself. So it's like each each piece um that that we're that we have here on the table ultimately you can start a conversation or have a conversation with somebody that maybe sort of noticed it and said, Oh, that's that's a really nice watch you have. Well, and then you can open up this whole other uh world of of or at least sort of going a direction of like bringing out the history and the story and the design and yeah you know talking about the designer and and the or and just the history of the company of like who established what and whatever and how they all connect, you know, like, you know, did you know that this happened to that guy and that that was you know, like that that's the fun stuff, you know, that that you have. And I think that's sort of the beauty of history. You know, it's like uh and and again like I see these I see these pieces as sort of like these kind of like you know artifacts or encapsulations of like little little little pieces of history and um that you can take with you so they're cause sort of constant reminder of like kinda like where things came from. You know, my father's actually like quite a quite profound in terms of like his understanding of history, as a bit of a historian himself. And you know, the the beauty about actually really understanding and appreciating history is that you can pretty much have a conversation with anybody in the world at any time, right? Like you can you can you can just bring up uh you know w whether whether it's you know s you know you're a cab driver from from you know the Ukraine. It's like, well if you you know you know sort of contemporary Ukrainian history at the same time. I don't know why I'm bringing up Ukraine right now. But I think it's actually a true story that like my father was in a cat taxi and and there was there was a Ukrainian driver and so like not only did he know the the history of contemporary Ukraine, but he also knew about the the the sort of status and conditions that Ukraine went through during World War II, etc. and, on into World War I or whatever. And so he he was able to have this huge conversation with this cab driver, but it just you know sort of goes to show you that like you can really um you find yourself um at home anywhere in the world by by understanding and appreciating history, which again I I see uh timepieces and watchmaking as as um as reflective you know sort of of that yeah yeah yeah I mean it's it's funny I mean we experience it here all the time where y you go somewhere and you notice somebody wearing a particular watch and you know, okay, you go anywhere in the world and and there are guys wearing some mariners, there are guys wearing uh, you know, explorers, I'm wearing one today. Uh but there's certain watches you see people wearing and you're like, oh, that guy's a watch guy. Like nobody would wear that watch kind of unconsciously. Right. And so you immediately know you you have something in common. And whether you start a conversation at the bar or or not, wherever you are in the world, it is this kind of like silent nod that people can make to each other that like even if we never talk, like we're we're in the same club. Right, yeah. Or it or at least have the same appreciation. Yeah. I mean I I typically will so like normally like um uh you know like you know people that own the y the Langan Suna. Yeah. You don't accidentally end up with one. Right. Yeah. It it you know, so like it and and honestly like it just like Patek it's it's like one of those one of those time pieces you just do not like you're not seeing it every day, you know? And so um it's kinda like watch scenes like a you know, like a two fifty California Ferrari like driving down the street. It's like y you know, that doesn't happen. Maybe in California, but um but uh but yeah, I mean like if you have that moment where you're just sort of like subtly nod to the to the guy or girl that's wearing the uh langy and suna, you're sort of like that is dope shit. Yeah. Speaking of Innie. Yeah. So that's that's actually something I wanted to talk about. So so we ended up getting introduced because Innie Archibong who was on the show, we'll uh we' lllink up to Innie's show in the in the show notes here. Uh when we asked Innie for his his favorite bit of advice, it was from you, and it was show up, make dope shit. Right. Which is maybe the piece of advice I've heard from guests on this show that has resonated with me the most. I know we gotta we gotta get one. Honestly. I'll put it right above my desk. Uh it's just such a like it's such a good way to approach the world. And I think it speaks to a lot of people who are pursuing careers like you, and and very thankfully, and I feel very lucky to say this, like me, where like we get to do stuff we love every day and we get to wake up and try to like create stuff that makes people happy. Yeah. And it's it's just a good reminder that like that stuff can all get very detail oriented and very stressful and just like any job but ultimately just like show up and make dope shit. It's it's not that hard. Right. Right. Well but it is. It's super hard. Sorry. It's super it's not hard as an approach. It's super hard to execute. Yeah. I mean it's sort of you know, again, I kinda uh sort of referenced my father again, but he you know, he always said, you know, there's you know there's a you know, this idea this notion of of having vision is extremely important. And again, like, you know, not everybody has it. And, you know, and again, it's it's sort of the, again, it's sort of the difference between, you know um you being know and doing you know it's it's sort of like you know are you understanding what your purpose is right and like and having and and and taking it seriously you know, um and and putting all of your energy into what it is that your purpose has been defined as. And um and you know, your purpose, you know, obviously sort of evolves over time, but as long as you can kind of stay focused and keep keep your uh ego in check. You know, the idea is is that you can you know or you're on you're always a student, you're always constantly pursuing um and and trying to learn as much as possible and evolve and and um and and r reflecting on that is also extremely important as well. You know, like being able to spend time with yourself and like understanding sort of where you're at and where things are going. Um, you know, uh sort of you know, something my grandfather said and that that that one that technos there that watch there the the old one the one that stands out the smaller one that's actually my grandfather's watch. That's super cool. He was sort of famous for saying something like knowing where you're at. Um yeah, that that's actually that that watch is actually kind of interesting because that one that that's sort of like my pulp fiction uh sort of reference in that he he was you know he he's a you know career military soldier uh in in the army and um and he was stationed in vietnam um in the mid sixties. So I think I was talking to my father earlier, he was sitting around sixty six, sixty seven in Vietnam, and he purchased that watch uh in Vietnam during the Vietnam War. And again, his career. So he he fought he was in um in World War Two, Korea, uh in Vietnam. Um and uh you know, so it was you know when my when that was presented to my father uh via my uh grandmother and myself. Um you know my father knew that I was I was I was taking care of watches, so he was just like, I want you to take care of this for me. Um which was nice. But um no he did not wear it up his ass but that you know Christopher walk in if anybody doesn't know what we're talking about we will link that up also. Yeah that but that's as close as it gets, you know, but it was sort of that s that story. It's like, you know, your your father, you were your grandfather was a bizastic. My brother can do the impression way better. in the in the collection and that'll that'll be passed down as well. Um yeah I mean you mentioned you mentioned a minute ago and I I you are absolutely right that like it is actually really hard to show up and make dope shit. So like you're somebody who who makes stuff, right? Like you have to come up with an idea and then find the right people, the right partners, the right place, the right materials to to bring an idea into reality. And that's something that, you know, watches are a great kind of like representative of, right? Like these are in some ways consumer goods, like a lot of the things we consume. Uh they just happen to be extremely complex, uh highly engineered, uh very, carefully made consumer goods. And it's like the the amount of energy and effort that goes into bringing a watch from a sketchbook onto someone's wrist is is immense. And do you do you think that your sort of background as a as a designer and and an architect and and a creator of things impacts and kind of like is part of your your ability to like really appreciate these things? A hundred percent.. Yeah I mean that's I mean that's where it it really all came from. Um yeah, I mean, you know, so yeah, I was actually thinking about that just sort of, you know, kind of when we were first talking about the when any introduced us um and we were talking about doing this, I I started reflecting a little bit on like, you know, why watches, like where did that come from? Obviously there's some relationship to design uh and on in art. Um and so I I spent some time thinking about it and it's actually really interesting because I I sort of started to to understand that yeah, of course there's a design component, you know. Um I was also uh you know as a kid you're kinda like into cars too, so you're sort of like you know, automotive and you know, then you know, obviously there's always s some kind of like linkage between like you know, people are into cars and watches and you know this kind of stuff. So but I was always very much into like the sort of like overall design uh of of it um of of the object itself and so uh you know so when people talk about like and I'm sorry I'm gonna go on just a little tangent I'll bring it back. I'm gonna bring it back. But the uh but like you know when people talk about like um uh Lamborghini as a as like a car, you know, like I'm I'm thinking Bertoni. You know, like I'm thinking about the design house of of the or the styling house of of the car, you know, where it r or or or originated. Or when people speak about Ferrari, I'm I'm thinking of Pin and Farina. Yeah. You know, like like just that that's sort of where my head head was at. Um and so yeah, and then and then that sort of segued also into, you know, again, like just you know, just design in general and I sp I spent some time you know, but as as a kid, I I was just radically uh fascinated with time pieces uh just inherently. You know, you've been a watch guy forever. That's an that's it that is you know, that was really an honest answer. I was trying to think like was there like a moment and I just I just remember like my mother taking me to the grocery store um in Maryland outside of D C uh yeah, Washington DC and and and I would I there was like this little jewelry store next like down like on the strip mall, you know and they had Rolex in the window and I I would I would uh you know I just always would sort of gravitate to the window and I would just be looking at the at the watches that I was just pulled to it man. I was just pulled to it. But then but like but I I could I can argue this too that this is this is kind of sort of another sort of interesting thing is that like as it as I as I got into like a it was more of like a as a teenager, I remember reading this article about time and time management. It was sort of, it was an article, I think it was in GQ. It was called The Luxury of Time. And the luxury of time meant, you know, it's just sort of like you know, using time as a commodity, and like time is the most valuable thing that we have. So like we should we should be, you know, working towards trying to gain as much time as possible for us. And and I don't know what it was, but I I think, you know, a lot of the this that that always stuck in my head. And so time as as a as a concept became really important to me. And I'm gonna I'm gonna bring this full circle in a second. But like I remember so when I started um in college in in architecture, um and then and then moving up to New York, this is let's say two thousand, two thousand one. So I was about like you know around twenty twenty one, twenty two, like that time period. Um you know uh in architecture, you know, at Parsons was pivotal for me in terms of this the notion of time because like there is this this moment in architecture in the eighties um late eighties and nineties that that was you know regarded as deconstructivism and deconstructivism sort of evolved into this this other thing called morphology in architecture. But it was all time-based. It was all about perception. It was all about awareness of space and and how space is, you know, so Bernard Chimie wrote this like, you know, pivotal sort of manifesto and book, which is all rooted in in um philosophy from France, which was uh Jacques Derrida and um and Gilles Deleuze and their understandings of time really influenced the sort of deconstructivist movement, um, which again was about sort of breaking down spaces and program and sort of uh finding the those sort of collision moments or or the points of inflection, points of inflection being these sort of moments of becoming um moments of becoming is sort of this something that we live with every day, which is that that moment when you know you might intersect with with somebody and then your entire life changes. Um and or or space, you know, these two things come together and then everything everything sets off in a different trajectory. Um so in short, I mean like basically like this was fascinating to me and I just I just dug into this stuff and and it was really about it was always about time and I was like thinking to myself man this is that you know like this this is me and and this I just I absolutely love this. So I I started going further and further and and what you can find what how that evolves is essentially like your understand like when you get into the time thing you're kinda like okay well what is so then you start going back to the ancient Greeks and you start looking into like you know Xeno and like you know all you know all Plato and like their understandings of time and and then and then obviously it goes into Einstein himself and then and then you know I mean it was just on and on and on and then like this is all through kind of like grad school you know the earlier years of of architecture study um and then and then again like one of the things that Shumi was really passionate about too was sort of like understanding you know um architecture and time and perception based on film, you know, so it was like film studies and like getting into film studies and and so like watching films by like Chris Mark or like La Jete or or even Quarr uh Tarantino's uh Pulp Fiction, which is really kind of like the the sort of like mainstream version of like w how the deconstructivists were kind of like putting together film, like breaking down space and time and nonlinear thinking, right? So um I don't know, all that really influenced me and that ultimately kind of led back to this un understanding of of like the space in between like that between like like two things like between me and this microphone. It's kind of like well,, the space in between there there's there's a dialogue happening, but that space in between is that space of becoming, which again was sort of like pivotal for Shumi's work and and the deconstructivists. But like I was thinking, well, you know, I'm I'm fascinated by that. I'm also fascinated by design. But like, you know, as I were talking about earlier, like this idea of the byproduct, like what if the design that was produced was really like from that in-between dialogue? You know, so that's where the byproducts come up, you know. So producing design that sort of engages I I like to call it sort of relational design. Yeah. So this idea of relational design uh was really about producing if if you were to design something, it would be more of a byproduct of a relationship. So that that was was kind of where that landed. The short of that was is that you know like you you can see that as an example. It's like just try to give you a quick example, but like if you see like the edge of the the chair, it's like if you're gonna design you know, something like a table that would you so basically like what's the relationship between that table and this chair? Like right now there are two different things, like that's A and that's B. But the space in between, it's like could you design a piece of furniture that would So there's like a fusion. Right. You know, and that's that's kind of where the morphology comes in. It's sort of like this this sort of s uh symbiotic or or um um uh systemic relationship yeah you know between the two and that they're that they are all connected. Is is there an example of your work that you think embodies that like a something you've created that kind of like perfectly sums that up for you where you were like, yes, like I nailed it. Like I got it. The ideas are there. It's right. Yeah, and it not like it was yeah, so for Moroso, uh the the table, the mark table, uh which is not named after me. The the mark table was named after the the owner of the of the restaurant and bar that was that was called the mark. But the uh yeah the mark table is an example of that because it was it was really it was the table was designed as a byproduct specific to the seating system that was designed. So the seating the seating which was the space so the seating had a relationship to the space, the space had a relationship to the seating, the seating had a relationship to the smaller objects in the table. And so really the table was uh essentially a silhouette of the of the seating system itself. So it was almost it was almost just again that became that byproduct. And that's kind of where that sort of that was the first sort of manifestation of like, oh wow, you know, like that that that was it. Um and then that was picked up by the MOMA. So the Mo you can you can buy that table at the the MoMA store. 399. That's all right. You're you're allowed to plug. 3999. All good. Yeah. Yeah, we'll link it up so that people can can see it too. Are are there other ways that that idea has carried through to other work work you've done more recently, or has has your sort of general thinking uh evolved away from that? No, I mean no every day because because basically the way I like to understand it is in just in terms of like you know in in terms of space, you know, it's it's it's it's all about your body in relationship to the space itself, you know, sort of one of the one of the things that, and I can I'll I'll give you an example of this in a second, but like one of the, you know, one of the things that sort of like um bothers me currently right now and with the state of architecture since it's since I got a mic and you've got an audience. I that's what that's what we're here for, man. Rants rants are my favorite. Yeah, I mean I think it's I think it's one of those one of these moments where, you know, we're just spent so much time looking at um the f the sort of the the f formal um gestures of of these buildings and you know it's it's really like you know, how do I you know the you know c how do we commodi commodify is that a word yeah that's a word that counts we can commodify you know the the the sort of commodification of of architecture you know the the sort of bill bow effect of like you know shiny tinsel um that's being used to essentially like you know sell space and buildings to the highest bidder or whatever um and you know and again we're spending so much time looking at them from the outside when architecture is really about space. Architecture is about the interior, it's about moving through space and your relationship with space and how that makes you feel. And ultimately it should make you feel, or at least sort of raise the spirit, you know. Louis Kahn was the best at that, in my opinion. Um, Ando also uh Tendai Ando is also another you know master of this. But um the uh this this idea that that we're spending so much time looking at the outside versus the inside and again let's parallel think back to watches you know it's not about how many diamonds you have on your pet on your uh Odemar Piggy. You know we we've tend to sort of lost our sort of a track in terms of like where the value of this watch is. No, it's about the history of the watch. You know, like most of these guys don't even know that, you know, it was designed off the portal of of the you know, the the Royal Oak, you know, like or you know what I mean? Genta and like his his work with Patek and also with with uh Odomar Piget. It it's like it's not about that. It's about you know all the engineering and the design and the and the work that in the history of the company that goes into like the production of of that and what that means you know you know uh culturally and so so uh recently just to go back to your question recently um you know I I I've been I've we've been working on um you know designing these sort of like minimalist cabins. Um and you know we produced this this first one as a prototype, you know, uh upstate New York, not too far, about two hours. But I mean as in essence, like the idea is that you know the the building needed to be as humble as possible. It was almost like it doesn't even exist. So, you know, there's like one entire facade of the building, which is just a low profile um building uh which again I've sort of called the edifice, uh which which again has no there's no there's no fenestration, there's no windows, nothing. You know, but what it does is that that wall sort of offers itself up to allowing the light and shadow to sort of dance on the the facade of the building, which makes the building in so many ways disappear, you know? The building vanishes in in in the certain light of the day as as you know, so back to relational design. The the the building is uh has a relationship directly with the environment and not not only just just like the physical environment, but you know, with we could argue, cosmos and like the movement of the sun and the moon and and like how it relates specifically in connection also to the trees and the leaves And so in addition to the fact that like the building is completely off-grid, meaning or calling introverted architecture or neo-transcendentalist, but like this idea that that the the building uh the the sort of the the systems of the building, the infrastructure of the building is completely self-sustaining, meaning that it's operating completely on solar, there's composting, um the wood burning stove so your your heat comes from the wood around uh you know which you gotta work for uh which Claire knows very well so that's my wife so she works very hard for that wood and um thank you for the hatchet and so get to work and so um but i mean yeah so i mean essentially in essence like those those systems are are all are all um uh integrated into the building itself and self-sustaining. Um so yeah it's not it's not the most shiny shiny piece of design you know that's gonna get the cover of whatever magazine, but it's not supposed to, you know. Yeah. It's supposed to be it's supposed to just, you know, do what it needs to do in relationship to that environment. Um and it makes you feel something, you know? Yeah. You you you almost you feel the hu y the hu humility of it, you know, when you approach it. You're sort of like, Oh, is that it? But then there's sort of moments where it opens itself up spatially and you you're engaged with it and um it it it's it's unique. It's almost like taking this PETEC and you know which is a very you know streamlined edited minimal watch and then turning it to the back and it's got this other thing going on. Yeah. This whole other world. And so that's that's sort of where where I like to kind of um or at least that's sort of where I like to kind of take take the direction of of the work that we're doing right now. So that's awesome. Yeah. Would you heavy would you ever want to design a watch or do you think that would kind of like maybe ruin it for you I'm d I'm doing it right now man you're doing it kind of watch right now no no no but no but while we're talking I'm does that no um no absolutely man I would a hundred percent love to do that you know and again it's uh like it like we were talking like we're always talking is it's about relationships. So it's really about, you know, um one day, you know, if there's some somebody or something that happens, it'd be that'd be amazing. Um speaking of watch watches that are being designed. Uh I was with Joe to say um the other day and again Joe Joe's another uh w uh watch watch watch guide designer. Yeah. And he uh uh and he brought him up last time too when he was on and um yeah but Joe's working on a new watch, which is actually really cool. Oh cool. I didn't. That's awesome. Yeah, he mentioned yeah, he said uh sometime in I think in May they might be launching that. So very cool. He showed me some renderings of it, which is really really cool. Very cool. I'm always glad to hear when good designers are designing watch design. Yeah, when good designers so so much watch design is uh it's clearly designed by committee, right? Like it's yeah it's designed by focus grouping and you know market testing and whatever. And you can always you can always tell. Like I I think, you know, I think most people these days are smart enough and savvy enough that they can when they have a product in their hands, they can tell if it has like authorship to it. Right? Did this did this come out of one or two people's brains as something they felt strongly about? Or was this designed so that I would buy it? Right. I think people are getting pretty savvy to it and I don't know. I find the the reactions I hear from, you know, folks here at at Hodinky and then, you know, also just friends who are interested in watches furniture or whatever. Right. Uh I th I think I'm hearing those reactions and people get it. Well, you know, the same thing happens in in in in design and architecture itself. I mean, and that's also sort of like one of the things that kind of like sort of bothers me in terms of when people start talking about like using the label as designer or what have you. It's it's it's it you know, and I'm I'm kinda again like leaning more towards this sort of art thing. It's it's just that you know, I think that this whole idea of design by committee is is sort of also or like you know, this design using data and algorithms and and you know, um all sorts of systems and you know, like strategy. It's like 50 strategists in the room and we've got all this data, you know, of like, you know, this is the way to design space now. And it's so like I think that design is that the word design is also being hijacked in so many ways by um certain certain groups and companies that are kind of like using that word is like oh we're designers because you know we've got like computers that tell us yeah uh what to do um and and uh or how to design and I think that's total bullshit you know uh, you know, do you think there's a way to take that back? Do you think that word can kind of be like reco opted or do you get that ship sailed? You build a yeah, you build a cabin in the woods and you and you write a manifesto. That's kind of how how it it kind of boils down to. Nobody's getting bombed, but like the idea is that like you're you're you're out there like kind of like the screaming at the stars. Yeah, the the b the building in itself is really the question. It's sort of like you you know know like you know you know like what you know this is you know what does this mean in relationship to like this other stuff you know it's like every time you do something you're creating a conversation ultimately right yeah I mean at least I think you should you know like I think I you know that' thats sort of the value I think the the the the point of at least like really good design at least has poses a little bit of a question to something else. So you're again creating the dialogue. Um but um but yeah, I mean I I you know that that kind of stuff really bothers me and I just think that you know we're we're living in a world today that's just like so overly saturated with like, you know, just that big data, you know, just it's too much, you know. Yeah. You know, um I just recently deleted all of my uh all of my uh social apps uh on my phone. Yeah, I mean, you know, because it's sort of like and I I like I really sort of urge everybody to kind of do that because you know it's just it's it's killing us, you know, like as a society. And we gotta we just gotta we gotta move on. At least kinda simplify and get back to basics. Um which again is sort of like that's sort of the beauty of of the time piece of the watch. You know, it's sort of like this is this this is as basic as it can get. Yeah. You know, I I personally feel like smart watches are the sort of antithesis to, you know, this sort of, you know, um the the sort of humanity or essentials of of the of the timepiece. You know, when I explain to people like you know certain you know certain people ask, they'll ask you, they'll ask me, you know, people that understand or know watches, like, how does that work? You know? And it's like, oh yeah, you've got a main str main spring and it and it beats like a heart. You know, it's like it's living. It's a living uh technical organism. Blows people's minds when they first hear it. Blows their minds. They just don't understand like to wrap their head around and like this stuff was basically invented back in the I mean the seventeen hundreds or you know, like to yeah, on that scale. So it's like like it's it it just it it puts everything in perspective. Yeah. You know, and and that's something where, again, with with a with the proper timepiece, you're also making a statement of um you know I mean realistic I mean at least it is for me. It's like I'm making a statement that I see and feel and understand my relationship to the the s the sort of essentials of of humanity and and in in life in general versus you know this this this all this other noise that's that's around us. Yeah. Yeah. No, I d I totally totally agree. Right. Um and I think that's also the beauty of Hudenki itself is that you know you you do put you you put that on you know uh, a platform and a stage where you know, like it has a voice. Well thank and it keeps keeps going. We try. I mean it's uh it's certainly a nice way to connect with people. I mean I've I've met more interesting people through connecting over these these little mechanical things than probably any other way in my life. And it's uh it's a pretty exciting thing. Oh absolutely and it's all over the planet and people from all walks of life and it's a cool it's a cool thing to kind of meet and and share lives for a little bit over over these things. Hundred percent, you know. I mean it yeah it's it's definitely it's it's definitely something that's unique and and special that needs to be preserved and and cultivated, you know, for for the for our own sake. Yeah. You know. No question. You know, it's kind of like it's like cooking. You know, it's sort of like, you know, we don't want to stop, you know, actually making meals for our families. You know what I mean? Like I mean, and and in so many ways we have. And I think, you know, again, like, you know, writers like Michael Pollan who are advocates of like, you know, getting back to basics and and cooking your own meals and like you know going and spending time and you know uh at the f at the farm and like trying to trying to do do the the most you can to like you know stay connected and back to you know nature is is is really the most important thing and you know and again like you know these these time pieces they they represent they represent that as well you know yeah I mean I think your your appreciation for that makes a lot of sense and and the importance you place on that makes a lot of sense considering you're a person who makes things from from beginning to end, right? Like you have an intimate understanding and we touched on it earlier, but like you have an intimate understanding of how a thing goes from an idea to a thing on a shelf or at a store that you can buy. And most people don't. It's just like a consequence of the capitalism that we live in. Like most people just stuff is on shelves and they have no idea how it got there, whether it's a watch or a chair or a a p piece of food, whether it's a piece of fruit or or a cut of meat. People have no idea how it gets there. Right. And you know, I I think, you know, I'll speak for myself is I find that when you understand those those pathways, things have much more meaning because you you understand those stories, you understand where they come from. You know, they're they're imbued with a whole lot more than they are when they're just a thing with a price tag on it. A hundred percent. And uh it's it makes things much more fun. I mean it sounds very serious, but ultimately it it just makes life more enjoyable. Like I I find I have more fun and enjoy things a lot more when I know where they come from and why they're there. Right, exactly. Yeah. And everything in your in in your house should should have a story ultimately. I mean that's sort of that's sort of the beauty of um you know, again like yeah for me it's like one of those what one of those it's it's a constant there's a as a as a young designer um and maybe this is sort of like speaking to young designers now it's like you're you're coming out of school you're, you're you're you're trying to figure out your your voice and uh or your position as a as a designer. Um but we're talking about industrial design or product design or what you know what have you. It's it it's one of those one of those issues that you have to ask yourself like do we need this? Like do we need another chair? Do we need another table? Do we need you know and so it and it is a struggle. It's sort it's sort of like well if if I am going to design this it there needs to be a reason. You know, there needs to be a purpose. Now there might be a commission for example by you know a certain certain client that that might call upon you to to design something specific, that's one thing that that sort of again can can fall into the sort of realm of like uh you know the the the commission you know to the artist um but to sit around and kind of like try to come up with more stuff for the sake of making things to sell just to sell is that's that's not where I'm at, you know like I'm I'm really I'm really in that that sort of moment where it was like you know like late 20s uh and through my 30s it was really about like oh I've got a few ideas where I'm actually trying to articulate something, have a conversation with uh and develop those relationships with XYZ you know and try to get those things produced as as as uh reflecting or embodying something that I felt was important. Um and then that's it. You know, sort of like well you should say, okay, well you know what, like I'm gonna leave it at that. Now if there's certain commissions that come in and you say, well, yeah, okay, well what are we doing here? What are we saying? How are we doing that? That's a different story. But um but ultimately it's like, you know, y you you have to be very conscious, especially you know, right now environmentally as well, it's sort of like, you know, what are what are we th you know, what are we doing, you know, like and what's what's where are we at when it comes to that. So um, you know, my uh yeah, I mean like w some some of the new stuff that we're gonna be working on currently right now again all all sort of relates directly to sustainability, the ecology of of you know, sort of like the sort of like bigger picture in terms of like where these things come from and what's their life cycle, et cetera. You know, I mean but that should be the common that should just be the sort of common the normal dialogue now that's happening, yeah, you know, in design. Um and um and what that w you know, where that can go. You know, there's a there's a lot there's a lot to be to be done with that, which which is which is really cool. So it's like a whole new world that that's opening up in terms of like how we can um produce and and make things that um you know that that will that will you know um ultimately help, you know. That's awesome. So there's where we are. Where the beers by the way. I don't know. Well uh I think we're I think we'll I think we'll go get those now. Uh thanks thanks for coming on man. This was great. I know we've been talking about doing this for a while and uh yeah, you know, Innie uh set us up basically immediately after he got off mic. So uh right on. Maybe we'll have to have both of you guys back. We'll do we'll we'll do a joint episode. Yeah, that'd be cool. Actually, you know, uh uh Andy's actually gonna be here uh next week. He's gonna be here next week. So we should try to chat. Let's try to make that happen. I think he's like Sunday through Tuesday or something. Okay. Sweet. Awesome, dude. Thanks so much. Good to see you and uh thanks for joining us. No, thank you, man. This is great. This is awesome. This week's episode was recorded at Hodinky HQ in New York City and was produced and edited by Grayson Korhonen. Please remember to subscribe and rate this show. It really does make a difference for us. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next week. |