HODINKEE Lands In Japan & Ming Thein Of Ming Watches¶
Published on Mon, 25 Nov 2019 11:00:23 +0000
A couple of tales from the East.
Synopsis¶
This episode of Hodinkee Radio covers two major topics. First, host Stephen Pulvirent records from Tokyo with colleagues Enery (COO), Ben (founder), and Dave (video producer) during the launch of Hodinkee Japan, the brand's first international edition. They discuss the emotional significance of seeing Hodinkee in Japanese, their partnership with Hearst and a talented local team, and how Japan's deep watch culture and collector community makes it an ideal market for expansion. The team shares their watches for the occasion and reflects on the humbling experience of going international.
The second segment features an in-depth conversation between Jack Forster and Ming Tien, founder of Ming Watches, along with Pranit Raj Singh, their head of operations. Ming discusses his journey from watch enthusiast and physics graduate to photographer and ultimately watch designer. He explains his design philosophy rooted in reductionism and careful composition, influenced by his photography background. Ming details the challenging process of launching his brand in 2017, working with Swiss manufacturer Schwarz-Etienne, and maintaining extremely high quality standards that led to rejecting 60-70% of initial components. The conversation covers Ming's approach to outsourcing rather than in-house manufacturing, his emphasis on transparency with customers, and his gratitude for being nominated for GPHG awards in both years of the brand's existence.
Links¶
Transcript¶
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| Unknown | You started designing watches pretty early on in your career as a watch enth |
| Unknown | usiast, right? There were a lot of things that I wanted that I couldn't have, couldn't afford, couldn't find. And then you look at them and go, well, you know what, what if that was slightly different? Or what if that took on that aesthetic? And basically I started scribbling to see whether those ideas would work. I learned a lot about what I like and what I dislike from a design point of view because you have to make a conscious choice about every single line, screw, dial element forces you to consciously evaluate when you look back on your work, do you still like it two or three years later |
| Unknown | ? Hey everybody, I'm your host Stephen Pulverin and this is Hodinki Radio. I'm recording this in my hotel room in Tokyo, just a day after we launched Hodinki Japan, uh, the first ever international edition of Hodinki, uh based here in Tokyo. Uh, and I'm here with Enery, our COO, and Ben and Dave, uh for a pair of launch events we hosted yesterday at the Trunk Hotel in Shibuya. And we thought it'd be fun between those two events to sit down, have a couple minutes, just the four of us, uh, during the the the kind of eye of the storm to talk about what this what this all means, what it was like to put Hodinki Japan together, uh, to build a team here in Tokyo, and what it means emotionally to see Hodinki in Japanese in another market with with a new global team for the first time. It's a pretty special thing and and we get into all of that. So then we've got a conversation that I had a couple weeks ago with our own Jack Forester and then Ming Tian, the founder of Ming Watches, and his colleague, Pranit Raj Singh, who's their head of operations, about what it's like to start a watch brand. Ming started as an enthusiast, uh, and in 2017, after years and years of of preparation launched Ming Watches. One thing that's gonna stand out is the conversation is already a bit outdated. Uh like I said, we had it a couple weeks ago, but uh in the time since Ming won the Horological Revelation Prize at the 2019 GPHG in Geneva. And I I got to see Ming in Geneva just a few moments after their win. And I have to say it really couldn't happen to a a better group of guys and it's amazing to see enthusiasts enter the space and get rewarded for it. So without further ado, let's get into it. This week's episode is presented by Taghoyer. Stay tuned later in the show to learn about the iconic Monaco celebrating its 50th anniversary this year. For more, visit Taghoyer.com. Hey guys, what's going on? Hey, just here in Japan hanging. I know, right? Like uh just here in Japan hanging out. We are just in Japan hanging out. The four of us. So we got uh we got Ben, we got Enery, we got Davey, and we got me. Team Japan. Team Japan. |
| Unknown | Team Japan. Two guys that are not often on the podcast are on the podcast right now. I know. We're bringing bringing new voices in. We got D |
| Unknown | ave, we got Enry. I think they're a little terrified, but uh Should we explain who these guys are or Yeah, sure. How about you |
| Unknown | you explain Enry, I'll explain Dave. Where to begin with Enery. Energy uh he's the best trust guy in the office for sure. Yep. Well, Nick Nick Roberts. So there's this other guy, Nick. He's also really well addressed. Uh no, Enery is our chief operating officer. He's been with us for what, two and a half years, something like that. Wow. Uh he is the guy that makes the whole world go round. Yeah. We for the most part can't do what we do without energy. Correct. And he's here to my left and we are in Tokyo right now to celebrate the launch of Hodinki Japan. And across from me we have Dave. |
| Unknown | We got Dave, Mr. Dave O'Harrow, who uh is one of our video producers. If you enjoy our videos, you've got Dave to thank. Also one of the most stylish guys in the office, in a very different way than Nery. But uh yeah. You happy to be here, Dave? I mean yeah, I'm ecstatic. I mean you're usually on the other side of the mic slash camera, but uh you you gotta be on this side now. Ye |
| Unknown | ah it,'s good good to be here. You know, um I wish everyone can see our surroundings. Like we're in Japan and everything is so curated and high level of taste that matches Hodinki's uh aesthetic. So yeah, it's great to be here |
| Unknown | . Yeah, so just to like set the scene for people here, we're uh we're at the Trunk Hotel in Shibuya uh and we're between our two launch events. So we did uh a luncheon, a like seated lunch for some some folks from the watch brands. Uh then Ben did uh what two hours of uh press interviews this afternoon. So I'm making you talk more, sorry. Uh and then uh in about an hour we have the kind of like public party. So folks from some watch brands, but also just like watch collectors, watch makers, watch dealers, uh, you know, the watch community here in uh here in Japan. But I gotta say, for me, today's been pretty surreal. How about for you guys? It's been humbling is the word that I would use. You know, it's uh seeing our little brand go international by and and being handled by a uh a real group of professionals that are just top notch and um really taking our brand to the next level. It's uh you know it's it's it's a little humbling, it's a little eye opening of you know kind, of the reach that um that Hodinki has been able to reach. Uh and it's it's kind of a proud moment to be honest. Yeah, for sure. I mean you and I had the benefit of we were here a couple weeks ago to to meet the team and help kind of get get some things set up ahead of this. But like Ben, you you arrived yesterday, your flight landed, I guess what, like barely twenty four hours ago or right into the fire. But uh |
| Unknown | expect nothing less from you, Steven. You So what's it been like for you? It's I mean, as as Enery uh expertly said, I mean th this has been a humbling experience, an eye opening one. Uh to see this this brand that that I started eleven years ago for fun uh to be handled with with such kind of deft touch uh here in Japan is is is pretty wild. So we're working with Hearst, uh, you know, an an amazing publishing, you know, kind of group here. Um and uh we found two amazing young editors that are to my left over there. Hey guys, how are ya? They're gonna be on the podcast soon. Um, you know, to to really lead our lead our brand here in into uh a market that we've all the four of us here on the podcast have really admired and and loved from afar. Uh, you know, it it just felt like the right time, the right market, uh, with the right partner. Uh and so, you know, we we had a wonderful lunch today with some some kind of VIPs and CEOs of Wash brands, etcetera. And tonight we have the big kickoff party and the the site went live, I guess, on Monday, right? On Monday, yeah. It's live. It's live and it's beautiful. Uh you know, I texted it out to a few friends and many of them said, you know, Japanese just looks good on your site. It looks like it belongs there. Um and so it's just an amazing moment for us to to see uh you know all of our hard work uh kind of you know then be combined with the hard work of our of our new Japanese colleagues uh into uh into a magical moment. Yeah. Yeah |
| Unknown | it was crazy seeing the site live. You know, we set it live Monday night at ten PM local time so that our our colleagues in the US would be in the office. Uh and it was crazy to see Hodinki with Japanese on it. Um and then really quickly we published A Week on the Wrist in Japanese. Uh and Dave helped direct a shoot the other day for the first ever talking watches in Japanese, which was Japanese. In Japanese, which was really wild. Do you wanna do you wanna talk about that a little bit |
| Unknown | ? Extra surreal. I you know, on my way uh here to Japan, I watched Lost in Translation on the plane and I kinda related to Bill Murray's just sitting in his chair with the Japanese crew speaking in you know Japanese and kinda he's just feeling a little bit out of place. But at the same time with our crew, everyone was very accommodating and really understood, you know, the series itself and really took all the care and attention to make it the highest quality possible, uh not in a way to impress us, but just to uphold the the hodinky way and I was so impressed with the way it went and I think it went wonderfully. They're gonna edit it and yeah, th I think everyone's gonna love how it's gonna turn out |
| Unknown | . I think that's probably been one of my favorite parts of this entire experience is seeing, you know, our our partners from from first Fu uh Fujiny Yahoo um really ideate um to try to take, you know, Horinki Japan to the next level. You know, so we've we've been in some meetings where, you know, Steven and I uh just, you know, kind of give a little bit of background on what we have and then you see the wheels turning and the entire team starts talking Japanese and Steven and I can just sit back and just think like okay we we'll look at each other and just say okay something's happening. Uh we have no idea what it is. We have no idea what it is. Something good. You can tell it's exciting. You can tell that they're into it. And you can tell that they just get it. You know? So um I can't wait to see how this this develops. Um, I can't wait to see how they put their own touch in on the on the Hodenki brand uh in Japanese. Um and you know, it's just an exciting moment. Yeah, agreed. Uh it was it was super cool for me. You know, I I got to have the easy job at the talking watch issue 'cause Dave had to direct the crew. I just got to be there and just see it and and hang out and had zero responsibility, which is again my my way. Yeah, just hang out. Yeah, yeah. But uh yeah, it was it was amazing. I mean we had maybe the biggest crew we've ever had on a shoot. Um we got to shoot on location somewhere super cool. I'm not gonna give too much away, but uh it was really amazing to watch Dave and this this team uh work together. And I mean, language barrier aside, it was a super smooth, amazing shoot, and everybody was on the same page. Uh and one of the coolest things is even if you don't speak Japanese uh and you're you're uh reading the global site, uh Hodinki.com, uh we're gonna bring the story in the video over to Hodinki.com too. So in addition to our colleagues here uh translating stuff we're writing at HQ in New York uh into Japanese. We're gonna be translating things from Japanese into English. Uh so this video, when it premieres and debuts, uh, will be available. So every everybody can kind of enjoy it. Uh, and I'm excited to see how we end up with with different spins on kind of old things, and and I think we're gonna end up learning a lot from this team, and I think it's gonna kind of infuse some new ideas and new perspectives in into what we do every day at HQ too. I think it's it's not gonna be just kind of like isolated to what's going on here in Tokyo. Any thoughts on that then? Yeah |
| Unknown | , no, I I I agree. I mean I I've been so impressed so far with with everything that that that I've seen over here and you know now it's just it's gonna be fun to see the two kind of teams integrate. Uh and I know that there are plans for for us to come here often and them to come see us in New York and it'll be like having like pen pals, you know? Yeah. Remember pen pal? Yeah, I remember pen pals. |
| Unknown | Who was your pen pal when when you were like a adolescent? I did have a pen pal, not as an adolescent, but as like an elementary school kid. And where was his pen pellet? I can't remember. Like St. Louis or something. No, I can't remember where. I don't know. I don't know what they had us doing in Texas. It probably wasn't Texas. Yeah, it probably wasn't anything good. But uh that's okay. It's probably from like the other side of Texas. But you know. Um yeah, I don't know. What what what are your other takeaways? I've I've today just fe |
| Unknown | els kind of like a like a blur a little bit. It does feel like a blur. I mean it's one of those things for for those listeners who've who've traveled to Japan that, that first day really is just like a haze. You know, uh we we woke up. What did we do then? I I truly don't remember. Oh, we came here, we had we had lunch, uh and now now we did some interviews and now we're gonna have a a launch party very soon. But yeah, it's it's one of those things we're we're being in a in a land that that feels so familiar because I've been here before and you know, there's so many kind of familiar faces, but still so foreign is is a pretty pretty wild thing for sure |
| Unknown | . I think for me it's like even with the events going on today and the way the talking watches shoot went, it's like no detail is overlooked, you know. Um we had a crew of ten to go back to the talking watches episode. We had a group of ten people in the crew and I was like, you know, back home we only have myself, Gray, Shahid, and Will, of course, and that's a crew of four people. And I was like, what's everyone gonna do? One guy was his job literally was to film me on his iPhone shooting the watches so that they could take it back to the office and kind of study the way I was doing things and I was like, wow, that's amazing. So even book this event today and and walking around even in Shibuya, you get a sense of like how curated and and uh you know how much thought is put into everything the the Japanese do. So yeah it's a natural partner and it's great, you know. I think the biggest takeaway for me so far is that |
| Unknown | there is an entire watch culture here in in Japan that is much deeper than what we've been able to study from the US. You know, and so we we c we kind of know the the usual suspects here, right? You know, the the the Casios, the Seiko Grand Secos, the citizens of the world. Um but you know, there is a huge collector community of independence uh out here, which I find i incredibly fascinating and and very much in line with Japanese culture in general, you know. Um and I'm excited to see like what else is under, you know, the hood, you know, h from from other brands. You know, there is this uh new Bulgari Octofinissimo that was uh do this limited editions yeah yeah yeah that that the guys from Japan just wrote about today Steven can probably elaborate on what it is you know but just seeing product like that that never reaches, you know, the US or kind of the uh the other traditional markets that you think of uh for watches. Um and just you know so many interesting tidbits that I've been able to learn, you know, um, from from some of the folks out here. You know, it's uh uh for for some of the biggest brands in the world, J the Japan market is, you know, in their top two, top three, uh, in terms of volume and whatnot and and and so there's it's there's just a completely different world here that needs to be explored deeper, you know, and I think that we're all gonna be a little bit better for for it. Yeah |
| Unknown | . Yeah, I I think, you know, a a lot of people have been asking today, really. I was gonna say this week, but it's actually just been today. Uh you know, why why Japan? And I I think, you know, as Ennery kind of touched on, like the the Japanese have a have a wonderful history with with high-end watchmaking. You know, if you look at brands like FP Jorne, so Zhorn opened their first boutique ever in Tokyo. Yeah. Uh they've done several limited editions specifically for Tokyo. Langa has a great history here as well. I believe the number one langa collector in the world that resides in Tokyo. I think that's true. So rumor has it that eighty percent of the simplicities sold were sold at Shellman here in in Tokyo. Uh you know, it really has been at the forefront of of modern horology and then also vintage. I mean, you know, there there are dedicated magazines to vintage watches here, which are effectively just catalogs, but still pretty |
| Unknown | neat. Um so Enery's Energy's laughing because uh when we were here last time our, our colleague uh Wadasan over there, uh, who's also smiling at me now, uh, we were talking about the the reference points that Mariner I put together and he was like, Oh, have have you seen like the magazine version of this? And I was like, What? And he he brought me a magazine that was basically the reference points that I spent like a weeks researching and like all the information was right there in a print magazine. Was it Vintage Watch Bible or what was it? Uh oh I can't remember what it |
| Unknown | was, but uh I have it back in the office and uh yeah. Yeah. I mean it it's just the the the market here is is exactly who we are. You know, I was just giving another interview to s to some Japanese press and you know in many ways, you know, what what we do at Hodinki kinda subconsciously, what was really in the Japanese kind of like philosophy of study, right? It's like taking something that's super niche and going really deep on it. So it makes sense for us to be here. And then of course vintage, you know, in in in Japan is such a thing. Um Ed Sheeran bought his first vintage Rolex here two weeks ago. Just saying. Uh uh at Jack Road. You know, Jack Road is kind of a famous uh vintage watch dealer here. Um you know, it's just one of those places where like people get really into old things, which which speaks you know directly to to who we are. It's kind of our move. It is. It is our move |
| Unknown | . All right, so I got I got one more question I gotta ask. Yeah. I'm gonna make everybody share what watch they're wearing for today's launch because I know all of us thought about it really hard. Uh so Ben, while we've got you, let's uh let's start with you. What watch did you wear today and why? Yeah, let's make you flex. Come on |
| Unknown | . I yeah, come on, guys. I mean I don't need this. Uh no, I'm uh I'm wearing a Philippe Dufour Simplicity, uh which I've owned for six years probably. Um it's a thirty-seven millimeter rose gold example, one of the early watches. Uh it is Lacardial brigade hands. It's a perfect And I thought, you know, because of the connection f with Dufour and Japan, it made a lot of sense. It's also a little brand agnostic. Uh, you know, it is just a wonderful watch, no matter if you work for Pat Tech or Langa or Vashron or AP or Rolex or Omega. Uh everyone respects the simplicity and uh it just felt right tonight. And I'm also wearing a suit, which I almost never do. So I thought it would be nice to wear that bunch. Thanks. Yeah. What color is your suit? My suit is taupe. Toupe? Yeah, toupee. Yeah. Thanks to the toupee. Yeah |
| Unknown | . Henry, what uh what are you rocking today? Uh I am rocking a Grand Seiko SPGW 252, which is the Gold Limited Edition from 2017, I wanna say. Uh that, was the reintroduction of uh the original Grand Seiko from nineteen sixty. Um and so obviously we you know, we're in Japan, you know, I wanted to rock something that was uh uh from the local market, um, and it just felt good. I've worn this watch often this year. Um, it's to me pretty much the perfect time only watch. You know, it's it does one thing and it does it to perfection. Um, and that kind of speaks to me these days. Nice |
| Unknown | . All right. Davey, what are you wearing? So I did put some thought into this this morning and I um I brought my white OP and I thought about putting it on a wait for it. I was gonna put it on a um Hermes wrap strap. Is that a like I I asked you Henry remember I asked you about this in a cab? Today would have been the day for sure. I guess tomorrow would have been the day. Right. I didn't know if that was a bold move, but anything goes in Japan. Yeah, exactly. Anything goes in Japan, they just have a way of like taking something and flipping it a little bit and then you have the strap already? I d I was gonna go do it in my hotel room. But do you I do own the strap I have the strap. That's what I'm gonna I was gonna make that into content to actually sh you know show the watch tools on the side and switch it out and can we still make that in the content? I'm gonna do it tomorrow. Okay, you know. But I am wearing the uh Cartier tank because you know, ultimate dress watch, I'm wearing a suit as well and I don't normally wear a suit. So I figure let's just keep it classic today |
| Unknown | . Nice. Uh I'm kinda with energy on this one. Uh I'm also wearing a grand seiko, but I'm wearing vintage grand seiko. I'm wearing a 65 GS uh that I actually bought on my last trip to Tokyo. I figured I'm in Japan for the first time. I need a Japanese watch. So I went with some uh there happen to be some American uh Grand Seiko collectors here last time I was here. Uh shout out to JP and Eric. Uh and we went watch shopping. We were just walking around. We went into into a shop and they happened to have this watch and I loved it and I happened to have two experts with me to vet it for me and uh turned out it's a great piece so I took it home with me last time and kind of knowing then that that was the watch I was gonna gonna wear today so easy choice. Do we want to do a wrist check on our Japanese colleagues over there? Yeah, let's do uh let's have you guys come over and make a uh surprise surprise appearance. So uh first up we've got our our editor in chief, Mr. uh Sekiguchi san. Um what watch are you wearing today. Um I'm wearing uh Cartier Santos. Yeah. Brand new Santos. Yeah. I I bought on last Saturday this. Oh wow. Okay. So it's kind of for the launch. Yes. Alright, there we go. Oh man. That's great. Alright, and uh Mr. Watasan, our web producer, what's uh what are you wearing? I'm wearing my brege marine, the previous one, and blue dial. I just love it. Any reason why that was your uh your choice today? Well, I wear this all the time. This is like my third watch and And I I post a lot on Instagram and I saw maybe people recognize me as the guy who was a you know brew bregga marine. So yeah. Nice. Thanks. Awesome. All right, we're gonna have you guys back on soon, but uh I think we gotta go. We gotta get ready for this party that starts in less than half an hour. So I'll let you guys go. Ben I'll let you like not talk for twenty minutes today. Um we'll give you a little break, but uh this is gonna be a hell of an adventure, isn't it? Sure is. Alright, thanks guys. Up next, we've got our conversation with Ming Tien and Pranith Raj Singh of Ming Watches |
| Unknown | I feel like I'm gonna have a lot of secrets exposed because Jack knows me from the early days. |
| Unknown | Uh yeah, that's the goal here. So, Ming, tell us about your previous career as a drug smuggler and gunrunner. You know, it was |
| Unknown | a lot uh it was a lot it was a lot quieter than than being a watch designer. A lot quieter. That actually doesn't surprise me. Yeah. Because the thing with watch design is you you have to satisfy so many people. You know, if if you're just if you're just running guns and smuggling drugs, at the end of the day, it's only the one kingpin you've got to make happy. You know, and he signs the checks, everything's all good. With with the with the watch business, you've got investors, you've got customers, you've got, you know, second cousins you've never seen saying, Oh, I saw your watch on wherever and I need one now and sorry, we're sold out. You know, that's uh that's always our challenge |
| Unknown | . How how long have you actually been in the watch business? Because you're a longtime collector and enth |
| Unknown | usiast. I've been an enthusiast longer than I've been a collector because of financial limitations in terms of how much we can collect. Mes sense. Yeah. I started basically being interested in watches, I would say in in 2001, 2002, because at that point, you know, I was at university and I wanted to buy myself something nice, so I did some research and then I found purists and time zone and people like Jack and then I discovered that you know that that really interesting thing that looks complex and makes a chiming noise, oh that's six figures. And yeah, sort of you fall off the D pen, right? So since two thousand and one I've I've had some degree of involvement in all of this stuff. How how did you first come to watches? Hmm. That's a tough question because I think there's been always my my dad had some low level of interest in it. Okay. You know, so there was uh there was an Omega, there was um I think it was a there was a speedmaster of some sort. There was an earlier tournament. My mum had a Rolex that her brother bought for her. You know, I looked at those things and went, okay, so I don't quite get it. I'm gonna do a little bit more research myself. And then I I landed up um I landed up buying an Omega Dynamic Chronograph in uh in a Harrods sale in two thousand and one, I think. Um those were the days when, you know, when they decided to slash prices. I think I paid 200 pounds for it. Wow. Yeah., I know I was very pleased with that. And uh in hindsight, looking back at that purchase even today, um I still very much |
| Unknown | like the way the watch looks. You know, um I came very close to buying one at about the same time. Uh very early two thousands. I, you know, was just really starting to get into the watch internet at about the same time that you were and uh m you know, met you on the purists dot com. And uh I you know, I remember there was uh um there was an omega dynamic chronograph in a shop window that I used to pass on my way to work and I thought to myself, you know, that's a nice looking watch. |
| Unknown | Was it the regular one or the taglor one? The which one? Th there's a tag of regular one. And then there was I found out later there was another one with um a dial with a minute markings the sub-dial where the minute markings were towards the outside so you could actually read them. Mine has the minute markings on the inside I can't read it. You still the dials also radioactive I found out later because now it's turned this very nice shade of tritium brown. Oh cool. Yeah. So you still have the watch. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh that's amazing. Yeah. The last time I pulled out was actually get it serviced about a year and a half ago. But um I I think it's actually still the test of time really well and you know in a way that's indirectly influenced our design decisions as well because I I'm very conscious of things that um you know perhaps look great now but may not look so great in 20 years. But that watch is twenty-two years old, so I I think it's I think it's lasted quite well |
| Unknown | . So early two thousands, um you're kind of discovering the watch internet for the first time um and you had already started uh pretty enthusiastically uh attempting to design your own watches. |
| Unknown | Yeah, a lot of stuff didn't work. I think you probably remember some of that. I think you were one of |
| Unknown | my most vocal critics like, no, that's not possible. Well 'cause yeah, that that's something I think people should know is like you guys have known each other for what almost twenty years now? Uh amazingly enough, yes. Yeah |
| Unknown | going on it. But actually that's a good point because I at the same time um I also met Magnus Bos whoser was uh one of our co-founders and I've also known her for about twenty years. Um there are other people in our company who have known for very similar amount of time because you know either we've known each other through pursuits other than watches, like doing silly things in cars or um you know as photography clients and basically we have we have a bit of history so we kind of know what we think we know all of the watch buying skeletons in each other's closets and you know the jokes like remember that time you bought uh okay silent you and you were in university at the time I was so let me see that was two thousand and two I started in two thousand one sorry two thousand I graduated in two thousand three. Um I have a degree in theoretical physics. It's not terribly useful even for watchmaking. Um what I think just out of curiosity uh for our listeners, what branch of theoretical physics? Uh cosmology. |
| Unknown | Yeah, yeah. I remember telling my oldest son when he was uh probably too young for this piece of information. He asked me how the universe was going to end and I explained to him that even the proton is supposed to eventually decay. And he got very upset about it. And I said to him it's not going to happen in a time frame that has any relevance for human beings at all. Yeah. And he said it's not when it's going to happen. It's that it's going to happen. |
| Unknown | The conversations that go on in the Forester household. Yeah. We're not even sure about that. It may not decay. It may just become cold and lifeless and you know run, out of run out of um background energy, but that's another conversation. Oh, I feel so much better now. Thank you |
| Unknown | . My pleasure. That's what we're here to do, is answer the big questions. Yeah. So do you see any connection between your interest in physics? |
| Unknown | Well at some point I'd really like to make a moon face. I know that's a very simplified answer to that question but basically inside a watch conceptually I think there's a whole universe of things going on not just from the mechanical standpoint but all of the people and companies and partners and processes and thought that has to go into making it happen. So we look at it and go, okay, I appreciate it from a mechanical and an art point of view. And that's just the surface of it. You know, in some ways, it's a nice echo of of the the rest rest of the universe because there's so much that we see at a literal level that we don't see um then we can go on to appreciate and then at some point, you know, I'd I'd love to make one of those celestial complication things |
| Unknown | . Is it something you're working on or is this still in the the sort of dream conceptual? May |
| Unknown | be we're working on it, but I think it's a little way out because at this point the layout that I want is gonna need a new movement and we're not quite at the point where we can make our own movements yet. |
| Unknown | Okay. I would say no. J Jack already alluded to this, but you started designing watches pretty early on in your your I guess career as a watch enthusiast, right? Yeah. What what kind of made you say, like, okay, I'm interested in these things. Now I'm gonna start making my own, at least on paper and and in your head. R |
| Unknown | ight. So there were a lot of things that I wanted that I couldn't have, couldn't afford, couldn't find. And then you look at them and go, well, you know what, what if that was slightly diffenter? Or what if that took on that aesthetic? And basically I started scribbling to see whether those ideas would work. Um, some did, some didn't, you know, and and of course you're interested in the movement part, so you go and you know, spend hours pouring over George Daniels watchmaking and figuring out how exactly you can make those escapements work, how exactly you can make those movements work. And I I think I learned a lot about what I like and what I dislike from a design point of view, because you have to make a conscious choice about every single line, screw, dial element, all of those things, right? And it forces you to objectively evaluate whether it works for you or not. You know, and it forces you to consciously evaluate when you look back on your work, do you still like it two or three years later? And you know, I I think both of you have seen a little bit of the the early stuff, Jack Morso. You can see that there is a design progression from where I started out, started exploring around, I would say, defined themes, and then have come back to what we're producing today, you know, and and that will go on. The next generation of watches, the next generation of our design language will continue on and you'll see that evolution. It's not uh I think for most of the market, most of the collectors, they they saw us as 1701 was the first watch we made. But that wasn't the first watch I designed. It wasn't the second. It wasn't the third. I think by that point, at you know, we roughly counted it. It's something like 150 different variants, not counting the minor variants, 150 different major variants. So we've had some thinking. time beh |
| Unknown | ind this So when you say a hundred and fifty or so different variants, that's just the design process uh for the first watch that went into production. No, sorry |
| Unknown | . I I should have clarified that. Um by hundred and fifty variants, I mean there are a hundred and fifty different watches, right? Each of which had a process behind it to get to that point. Um then for the first watch the first watch I think was more difficult than later ones because we also had to define what the brand would be. You know, what kind of design language do we want to have that would allow us to be consistent and at the same time allow us to do a lot of different types of watches, be but more um offer different types of complications, you know, offer different price points and it had to scale basically uh you know and together with that we also had to answer the business question of where do we want to sit in the hierarchy of of the you know hierarchy of pricing and and the brand placement and everything else. So that was a much more difficult watch to design than anything perhaps apart from the diver |
| Unknown | . This week's episode is presented by Tag Hoyer. There are many reasons why the Taghoyer Monaco is an icon. It represents a technological breakthrough as one of the first automatic chronographs, and it has a unique design language that's recognizable from a mile away. But even more than those two things, it's a watch that's intimately tied to the history of racing as a part of pop culture, largely thanks to one man, Mr. Steve McQueen. In the late 1960s, there wasn't anyone cooler on planet Earth. McQueen had starred in Bullet and the Thomas Crown affair and embodied a unique combination of ruggedness and elegance. He was, quite simply, the man. So, when McQueen zipped up his white racing suit with golf livery and Hoyer crest and strapped on a square blue watch in the 1971 film Le Mon, people took notice. This is arguably the most important racing movie of all time, and on the wrist of the mega movie star lead is none other than the original Hoyer Monaco, the reference 1133. This put the Monaco in front of millions of viewers across the world, and thanks to the watch's distinctive design, with its square case, its rich blue dial with contrasting white sub-dials, and its opposing pushers and crown, there was no mistaking it for any other watch. The Monaco has remained a favorite of racing enthusiasts and Hollywood types ever since. For five decades and counting, it's been a totem of pure coolness through and through. For more about the Tag Hoyer Monaco and the watch's 50th anniversary, visit Taghoyer.com. Alright, let's get back to the show |
| Unknown | . Before we started recording, we were looking at some of the design drawings that you did in the early 2000s, uh, series from 2003 in particular. Uh and you can really see a connection between those and the watches that you ended up finally producing. There really does seem to have been a years-long, decades-long process of thought and refinement going on behind all this. Second observation is that you actually achieved something which is very hard to do, which is you produced a idiosyncratic design language that makes your watches instantly recognizable as Ming watches. And that was not a fast process. Aaron P |
| Unknown | owell It was not. And I think the the most important thing for us to to achieve that is basically we don't design according to um I would say hard elements so I don't say I must have the zero for instance at 12. We design according to a set of principles that is I need a certain overall aesthetic which has been described before as Art Deco meets Tron. I think that's actually quite accurate. Art Deco meets Tron. Exactly. I like that. That makes that makes sense. Yeah, it's Art Deco meets Tron. You know, it's more metropolis than than sort of um Yeah uh I don't know the the sort of very ornate detailed kind of art deco. You know it's it's a little bit more clean, a little bit more modern, not so modern that it becomes stark. But so we have I mean we we have these design principles that underpin all of our watches and that that in itself creates a design language. It's not saying I must have, for instance, a certain design of arc or a certain design of hands or certain design of indices or font. I mean, those are consequences of that process. So firstly, we need to have readability and functionality. So time reading comes first. I design and watch like a photographic composition. I make sure that the most important elements are the ones you notice first. And then everything else sort of descends in a hierarchy. And then we we throw in layering on top of that to make it visually interesting. And the way every piece interacts with light is very deliberate. So you'll notice that even on the 1706s or 1701s, there's a lot of layers going on in the dial because as you as you live with the watch, as you see it under different light conditions, it's very alive, you know, it changes. More so with the 19ths, because you've got even more layers in there, and we've got that partially transparent gradient sapphire dial that allows you to see the movement, but at the same time it sort of hides everything and creates a blank canvas to read the time. On top of that, it means that we don't really do subdials because that breaks the symmetry. The functionality precept means that you know the crown must be operable, for instance. We need to make a really comfortable crown to wind, especially if you're going to be winding every day from any winding pieces. There's a little bit of lyricism in the lugs, you know, that's the art deco part coming in. Um, you know, at the same time, I need to design something that personally I can wear. I don't have very big risks, and a lot of our market in Asia doesn't have very big risks, but it has to have the risk presence. So we find that we do things with simple or very small bezels, very narrow bezels, a lot of dial, short interlog distance. So it means that you have a watch that has a lot of wrist presence visually, it looks big, but it still wears comfortably. You know, we and also do smooth case backs with with a slight um convexity to it so that they've they're comfortable to we |
| Unknown | ar. So uh just backing up a little bit you mentioned uh that you compose a watch dial in uh a way similar to how you would compose a photograph and that there's a hierarchy of details that you want people to experience. And I don't know how many of our readers are actually aware that uh you didn't actually go straight into designing watches right after graduating. No, so there's a little bit of a career in between. There's a little bit yeah. So so in fact there's a major career in between. Uh to 'em actually. Yeah. And um w when I when Ming sort of uh when you know when you sort of resurfaced um in in in my attention, it was years later and it was as one of the uh world's most widely read on the internet uh writers about photography and about photographic equipment and photographic processes. And your work was always both, I would say it was equal parts extremely granular as far as technical details are concerned, but also extremely granular in terms of processes dedicated to achieving particular aesthetic effects. Mm-hmm |
| Unknown | . I okay, I'm gonna quickly gloss gloss over the first career, which was you know private equity, corporate, all that kind of stuff. The second career was photography. We c I came back to photography because I I like to create stuff. I needed to create stuff. Um and it was one of those things where at the time it was it was easier to do piecemeal creation of a photograph rather than say an entire watch. Um I also resurrected a lot of my contacts in the brands at that point and started off my photography career shooting watches. But to your point of of the balancing off that technicality with the aesthetic and the idea, I mean to me the idea has to come first. So the concept has to come first. The technical stuff is merely supporting. And I've always been you know slightly sad that the vast majority of of people tend to confuse the two. The hardware, the techniques, the processes, they are they always must be subservient to the end concept, the end idea. It's the same thing in a watch. You know, whether whether the case is machined a certain way, um, whether it's finished a certain way, that depends on on what do you want to do with it. Do you want it to be a more dressy piece? Do you want it to be a more rugged-looking piece? Do you want it to be a more um subdued piece? Uh from a compositional standpoint, you know, I think most people think his composition is additive. It's actually not, because the world is so busy it should be treated as subtractive. Anything that's not your primary subject is a distraction. It's either context or it's a distraction. If you if you don't want it to be there at all and the idea is stronger without it, then you should take it out. You know, composition is a process of conscious exclusion. Design tends to be a process of inclusion. So I see a lot of a design work not just for watches, for cars, whatever else. I mean, there's there's stuff thrown in, there's elements thrown in that are there for the sake of looking complex, they don't serve any real function. When you start taking away all that stuff, I think you're left with something that that certainly has a lot more integrity from a design point of view. It's there's less risk of being um misinterpreted or badly interpreted or being very polarizing because everybody knows that the functions that are left behind or the elements that are left behind serve a purpose. And that purpose is tell the time, um, add visual interest, you know, focus your focus your attention on telling the time, um create a certain impression of the uh you know of the finishing or the aesthetic or whatever else it may be. I mean we you you notice one thing with our watches we don't have a lot of script on the dial. And in fact, in almost every design, I struggle to figure out where we put the brand name. It's usually hidden into an arc somewhere because that's the that's the easiest place to put it. I don't want to break up the symmetry. You know, I I don't want to call attention to something that's unnecessary. You know what you bought. If I've done my job right, somebody else looking at it is gonna know what you bought. |
| Unknown | So why do I need to put it there? So one of the things that um one of the things that I think of is there's a one there's a wonderful interview with uh the photographer Elliot Irwitt uh on YouTube, and uh somebody asks him, um and you know, again for our listeners, he's a famous and now um you know pretty old. Um he was a magnum photographer. And uh during the interview, the I think the first question that the interviewer asks him is, Do you feel that digital has uh ruined photography? And he says, Yes, I do feel that digital has ruined photography. And then he goes on to sort of, you know, he he kind of gets a laugh. And then he goes on to explain what he means, which is that it's become technically easier it's become easier than ever to make a more or less technically correct photograph. Right. And he feels that uh when things are too he says when things are too easy people get sloppy, it's sloppy is not good for I agree. Um and that, in connection with the process of watch manufacturing and design makes me think about the ability to uh create designs very rapidly nowadays, uh you know, to prototype in software. So uh number one, what do you think about uh as a photographer? Um, you know, what do you think about uh his thought and as a as a watch designer, somebody working now in industrial design, do you think that it's become in the same sense maybe a little too easy to execute things that should be given more thoug |
| Unknown | ht I would say that it depends on how you want to use it. You know, if if if the tools make it easier for you to execute an idea, that means the idea can be pushed further. So the right the right user in that sense is going to find a way to deploy those tools, deploy the rapid iteration in a way that basically means you can progress very fast. You can try a lot of different iterations. You can you can do a lot of variants. I mean for any given watch before we go to before we go to prototyping even, um there'll be seven or eight major variants and probably within those maybe twenty, thirty minor variants for each. Um, you know, that that's uh basically it lets us get it right up front. You know, the fact that it's easy to do means that we can try things and see how it looks rather than saying, okay, we gotta go and make it and then go through that entire process and then decide later that oh that wasn't quite right.. Right So if it's used properly, I think it's a fantastic enabler. I think it can make life your life a lot easier. But it also means that you know whether you want to use it for ease or whether you want to use it for um you know pursuing that last fraction of a percent. That's down to that's down to the the indiv |
| Unknown | idual. It's funny that you know Jack brought up your your photography side. I was and and film and digital as well, in that last night I was actually just poking around on my phone looking up nonsense about old point and shoot film cameras. And I ended up on your blog looking at contacts T threes. Uh but uh you know, there's there's been kind of a a revival of interest, uh not just among Jack and myself, although definitely among Jack and myself uh in in shooting film and in slowing down that process again. And I wonder if, you know, really as you dive and and dove deeper and deeper into watch design, did you get that sort of experience of getting to instead of just walking into a boutique or researching a watch online, having kind of a cursory relationship with it, that experience of getting to really focus and slow down and kind of like immerse yourself in the the process of watches. Was that something enjoyable to you? Was that something new? Was that something old? Kind of how how did that relationship work for you? Okay. I'll I'll address the the |
| Unknown | photography bit first because that's I think a bit simpler. I I short film for a while to understand the process, as you said, but then I applied that discipline to digital. And I found that worked very, very well for me. So basically I had the control, I had the technicality, I had the the the ability to do exactly what I wanted, but that sort of attention to detail in each frame. And if you apply that sort of attitude towards whatever you're shooting, whether it's with a phone or whether it's with with medium format, you know, the results are a little bit different because you you start to observe all the details and make sure that the whole frame comes together in a harmonious way. From a watch process point of view, from a whether it's designing or researching or whatever, I mean, I found that certainly having more resources at your disposal means that it's easier to acquire a lot of knowledge very quickly. You know, it's it's easier to to be it's easy okay, it's too easy to be inundated by too much information and it's like who is valid, who is not, what what do I listen to? What do I not listen to? But eventually, basically, it's the same thing as with photography. You have all the tools, how do you use them? You know, what do you do with the information? How do you make up your own mind? And what's important to you or not important to you at that point. I think I certainly found that there were a lot of watches that I didn't know about that you suddenly learn about and then you've got to go and try and track down and find and everything else and that's an expensive and painful process. Um there are a lot of watches that you you know, you thought were sort of your hero pieces and you went, uh that's not quite what I expected in person. You know. So it it goes both ways. I think there were there were positive and negative experiences to that, but it's basically it's really about choice of information, if that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. Ye |
| Unknown | ah. So we've we've talked about it kind of abstractly, um, but I want to get into the the nuts and bolts. So you're designing watches essentially as a as a hobby. You're working as a photographer, but then I mean the brand launches two years ago, but I assume you've you've been working on it much longer than that. So when when do you decide, okay, I'm not I'm not just gonna make these drawings and push them out on the internet and see what people have to say, but like I'm actually gonna make watches. When when did that decision come about |
| Unknown | ? The chronology of this is a little complex because between twenty twelve and I would say up till now I am was a photographer. I guess I'm less of a photographer now, I'm more of a more of a a watch designer. Um in 2014, I we a bunch of friends went to an event. Um we came back from the event and said, hmm, that experience is not quite what we expected it, you know, and maybe we could maybe we should think about doing something for ourselves. So we started researching a lot of the independence, and you know, several of us went off and commissioned pieces. I mean, for me, I I got several pieces from Moxton Jr. at that point, um, and every time I was pushing I was pushing the limit of what they define as open-ended customization. And I think um I think they took that they took that tagline down off the site because they said, okay, we're not doing this anymore. That was a mistake. You you broke the uh broke I broke it. I mean I remember having what sorts of things were you doing? Uh we got to the point that I think the last one I did with them, the only standard thing that they offered on any other piece was maybe the movement and the case. Okay. Everything else was different. But that's just the case blank and then there's additional work done to it. Um |
| Unknown | are those uh I think those watches were uh written about in the design process is written about fairly extensively uh on your blog. Isn't that correct? Exactly. So |
| Unknown | we'll link up in the show notes. Yeah, yeah, we'll link that up. I mean, that's a that was a very left field design. I mean, they they basically the first one was I just want to try out these people and see what they can do. The second one was okay, how far left field can I go? And that's what's just for me. And the third one sort of come back to the middle and go, okay, now I've learned a lot. Most importantly, the whole process of design reductive d reductivity and taking away the stuff that's not important. Um and you'll see with the final one I did, a lot of that DNA has gone into the 19 series. Uh it was an interesting process for me because I always thought the watches I liked had a lot of stuff in them, basically. They were visually complex, they're mechanically complex, and it didn't didn't have to be that way. So the whole process taught me that you can do a lot of very interesting things with very little. So that you know that one line, that one design element serves a lot of functions. Right. It serves a lot of yep |
| Unknown | . Yeah. Now it's to me that's a very interesting observation to make because one of the things that I hadn't I I noticed the similarities between your very early designs from the early 2000s and the watches that you produce today. But what I had not noticed is how much has been eliminated. So those early designs a, tre therem'endosus amount of celebration of complexity more or less for its own sake. Oh yeah. It's it's there these are definitely the visualizations of somebody who's discovering um the uh kind of intellectual and even sensual pleasures of mechanisms, you know, for the first time. I think at that stuff has kind of been |
| Unknown | Well, it was the layered tool in Photoshop. I mean it's like, whoa, I can put more stuff in. So everything up to everything that we've publicly released up to this point has actually been designed in Photoshop. So I'm I'm guilty of I'm guilty of of not making use of all three dimensions. Um with the watches that were released starting from next year you'll see that now that I'm working in proper CAD program, there's uh you know there's another there's another element to it and um and my suppliers are going, no it was already difficult enough as it was before. Yeah. But I I agree. There was that sort of you know, how much stuff can I cram in? There's a photography term called Wimmelbild or Wimmelbild, I don't know how the Germans pronounce it, but I probably butchered it. That basically means there's this sort of recursive detail that you keep looking and there's more detail and and it's just it's just complex, right? The complexity is what holds the whole thing together. I think the fact that you can still see the design lineage, even though I've taken out a huge amount of that, just shows how much of it wasn't necessary in the first place. Right. But I had to have that experience and go through those processes and make those um Ox and Junior watches in order to figure out what we were gonna put into the actual thing. So I realize I've not answered your original question. Um That's fine, we can look we can loop back, yeah. Yeah, so I'm gonna loop back and say after we several of us founders went through that process of commissioning our own watches and with the independence and you know uh other other brands, we said, okay, you know what, maybe there's something in here um between access to suppliers now, um the collector's market being a little bit more willing to to buy stuff online. Um so we have access to a greater market. We you know we don't have a a big impediment by being in the wrong part of the world from a retail point of view. Um you know and at that point I think we also collectively had enough business experience that we said, you know what, we'll we'll do this as a project, we'll ring fence it and if it doesn't work, we're gonna have Christmas gifts for the next 25 years. That didn't happen. Luckily. Yeah, luckily. But in the end, we we didn't really make money on the first on the first batch of 1701s because our expectations of quality were a lot higher than the suppliers' expectations. In the end, we rejected 60, seventy percent all of the components. Hmm. |
| Unknown | Holy smokes. What what sort of things weren't right or weren't up to your standards? Like what sorts of details were you noticing that Okay. Luminous materi |
| Unknown | al. Case crispness you know so if you look at the sides of our cases now you'll see that the reflections are perfectly plain up um and apparently that's very difficult to do so we we had these like wavy cases with imprecise lugs and you know, my lug design is quite specific. So if if the if that arc the projected arc when you look down from the top of it's not right, it just looks melted |
| Unknown | . Yeah, that's a characteristic of your designs, I think. Uh they are simple but not simplistic and they're extremely unforgiving of any imprecision in execution. |
| Unknown | We tried very hard to make them easy to execute though, because a 17 series case can be done with only circular machining operations, which means you can actually make that case on a single axis mill. You can't do that with a 19 series case because it's got It doesn't look like it, but they're definitely there. Mm-hmm |
| Unknown | . So you you have this idea and you decide you're gonna make the first seventeen series watch. What was the process like of figuring out? You said it wasn't the first watch you designed. So what made you decide that this was the first watch you were actually going to produce? |
| Unknown | Actually it was the business idea behind it. So we needed to make something that would be sustainable from a corporate point of view and from a from a business point of view. I mean it's great to make one watch for yourself, but if you want to continue making watches and stay in business, then we have to make watches in a way that um you know that, is repeatable, right? It's repeatable, it's consistent, and you know, we have to consider things like spares, repairs, after sales service, you know, volume scaling and all that kind of stuff. So we said the the easiest place to start is if we take all of our collective buying experience within the group, I think if you add up the number of years, everybody in the founding group has been buying watches is like 130 years or 120 years or something like that. Um we take the things we like, we distill it down to something that's accessible. So you know what's the typical price point that a new enthusiast could get into? What's the typical price point that an existing enthusiast would say, okay, you know what? That's pretty cheap. I'll pick up one and see how it goes. You know, have something different. It's like a porological palette cleanser. Um and then the challenge was what specification fits within that and works from a production standpoint. Um, and obviously, had I known what I know now, I think the watch would be pretty different because we we had a lot of on the face of it, simple looking design elements like the Sapphire Ring, right? The Sapphire Ring gave us so many headaches between um production tolerances, between alignment in the case, you know, between how do we make the luminous material adhere, you know, things like that. You know, and it's it's all of these technical production processes which you don't really think about going in, you're sort of aware of them. You think you know a lot. Until the first batch of samples arrives and go, that's not what I meant, and that's not what was on the drawings. And that happens pretty often |
| Unknown | . Yeah. Also the process of finding suppliers, I know, is not the easiest thing in the world. How did you go about finding the right partners? Once you knew the watch you wanted to make. How did you find the people to actually make this thing happen |
| Unknown | ? We tried a lot of different suppliers at certainly at the early stage for quotes and case engineering and and and stuff like that. And you know, either the quotes were too high, they didn't quite understand what we wanted. Um the supplier we went with for the 17 series in the end was somebody that we found through you know second or third third year, like friend of a friend of a friend uh in the watch industry that actually magnus found them. So you know we that we went with them for the for the 1701. We their sub supplies changed for the 1703 because we wanted high quality and it changed again for the 1706. Same thing again. We we're always trying to figure out how to improve the product. So 1701, 1703, 1706, they all have different cases. Um and the case engineering is much more sophisticated on 1706 than 1701. Um for example, I wanted a case that was rigid, had no spaces. And the first situ the first solution was we do top loading because the dial is big in the movement, everything goes in, it's pressure fit. That proved to be a pain to service, pain to assemble, and because of we had the sapphire ring, dust issues. So to if you see dust after assembly, you basically have to open the whole thing out again. And it's a very, very time consuming process. On the uh on the current generation of 1706, for instance, we've re-engineered the case so there's actually space inside it that the bezel is attached with internal screws. So if we need to service things, we need to swap things out, it's very quick. There are alignment notches for a lot of the elements in there, so everything just goes together. You don't have to worry about having perfect perfect alignment. Um you don't have to eyeball it. Yeah, you don't have to eyeball |
| Unknown | it. So you you released the original uh 17 series watch, which I remember Jack and I. Jack showed it to me one day in the office, and I was like, oh my God, what is what is this thing? Yeah. |
| Unknown | And and uh you know the impression other than it's just a sort of um enjoyment of the aesthetics was uh what it it was just a tremendous, tremendous value. I mean, uh, you know, for the price sustainably tremendous value. What was what was |
| Unknown | the price point on that piece originally? Nine hundred dollars. Nine hundred dollars. Right. So then you release your second piece, which is nineteen oh one. Right. Which is substantially more expensive. Yep. And people's reactions were were mixed, I think. I think people said like I think I think |
| Unknown | WTF kind of summarized everything nicely. Yeah. Um we okay. The story behind 1901 was it was meant to have a different movement and be with a different supplier. At Basel that year, Magnus got dragged into the Schwarz-Tien booth by by the um communications person and um, you know he, wasn't allowed to leave until he promised that he'd go visit the factory and do a write-up. Okay. When he went, he dragged me along because we were looking for supplies at that point for future projects. And I thought okay. Yes, yes. The very first time that we had interacted with them I met the CEOs uh Mauro um and he gave us a tour of the factory and he says oh yes this room is where we make the hairsprings. This room is you know our laser etching machine which is made by the company downstairs And I'm like, you do all that in-house and nobody knows about what you do? Yeah, see, this is one of the things. I |
| Unknown | mean I mean I kind of dis I'd heard the name, but I hadn't really understood the um depth the depth and breadth and sophistication of manufacturing processes at Schwarz Hittien before you basically started using the movements in your watches. Right. Ye |
| Unknown | ah, I've got to admit, I I think I'd maybe seen the company name, maybe, but I would not have known them from anyone else until I saw them in in the nineteen series. And and and to this day I think in our market certainly they're there's they're still not particularly well known. No, not at all. I think people definitely know them more from your watches than for their own their own pieces. Well we're not complaining. I think they're not comp |
| Unknown | laining. I mean anyway, back to the story at that point. I went and I saw the movements. I said, this is fantastic from an engineering point of view because it's so modular. Right? The same base can take the you can have a double barrel manual winding, you can have single barrel micro automatic. You know, you can put power zeros on the front, you can put date complication, you can um you can reverse the movement. It works upside down. You can put a torbillon escapement in, you know, you can have uh world time complication. Um, you know, there's so many things I can do with that movement, which I was thinking, I don't have to redesign my case for this. And that that means the case proportions stay the same. I don't have to make it thicker. The case proportions stay the same. I can use the same movement and I can do a lot of different things with it. So from a production efficiency standpoint, that's great. So I went, okay, I've known bear in mind I've known the um I've known the COMARO for three hours now, maybe two and a half. And I said, okay, I'm gonna stop um I'm gonna I'm gonna stop dissembling. Uh we are actually starting a watch brand and if you don't mind signing an NDA, I'd like to start a project because I'm leaving Switzerland tomorrow. Okay, so you can you go Okay, no problem. And that's uh that's how it started. You just went head first. Yeah, yeah. And then after that I called my investors and said, by the way, we've committed to we've committed to um a rather large project. Surprise. Surprise. Yeah, exactly. And there was some hesitation because I think at that point um we were also still developing how we did the renderings to make them understandable. And I think looking at the early renders, the the investors and the rest of the group said, uh I don't quite know how this is gonna turn up. I said, look, trust me on this if it doesn't work at very least you know we write off the prototype cost and say that we've got four piece uniques and that's that's basically it as a collector you know that's that's kind of one of the things you really want. So it turns out that um that project was very unusual because we started in April. We got prototypes delivered in November the same year, which is unheard of. Yeah, that's crazy. Uh literally the day before Salon QP in 2017, um, you know, we met with them, we met with uh the Schwarzer Tien team and they said, Okay, here's your prototypes. So at that point we didn't have um we didn't set up in at at um at Cell and QP so we sort of commented a little table in the bar area and it's it was very it was very ghetto, it was like Psst wanna see a watch kind of thing. But uh it was very well received, and I'm glad they didn't. So um thank you for the selling QP guys for doing that |
| Unknown | . Uh do you think it was um I mean we talked about a bit about the fact that Schwarz etiana is not actually |
| Unknown | Aaron Powell It is an exclusive movement. And even if they were well known, the thing is we changed so much in the movement that I think you know the m the most we share with them is actually the gear train. You know they they even use a different balance. So you know we don't even share that. We share the gears we share the gear train, the hairsprings, the main spring, um the plates are obviously different. They don't do skeletonization like that. Uh the world time complication does not exist for them in that form, so there's no combination of complications they have that that does that. Um I mean we basically have all of the advantages of being of of having a manufacturer without the without the hr cost right you know even even the crystals are um even the crystals are are lasered in house and i'll show you a video of that later. That's pretty cool |
| Unknown | . The crystals are one of the design elements that I think really sets the watch apart. To me, it's it's as important as the case is the way these sort of domed crystals meet the case, the way they highlight the dial, the way they etched elements then cast uh shadows on the dials. Yep. It's like a petri dish with a movement in it. That's what I like to think of it. Yeah. That's a great way to describe it, actually. I love that. You know, you talked earlier about a sort of reductive process, right? And and one of the dangers of doing that is as you take things away and there are fewer distractions, people pay attention to everything, right? Like they look closely, they can see every detail. Yep. You know, that that I think is in in a lot of ways an advantage for you, but it's it's also a burden, right? Like everything has to be done spectacularly because otherwise it's gonna stand out. Of course. And and one |
| Unknown | of the biggest headaches we had was was actually you know, for instance, dust management, because the dust the dial is sapphire, every single tiny speck you're gonna see. Then you've got another piece of sapphire on top, every single space spec you're gonna see. We're very fortunate that Schwarz Satan has has decided to take up the challenge and and continue to work with and say, Okay, you know what, we'll we'll make it better for next time. Um and we'll we'll continue to improve. I think without and this is an important thing in general, without partners, our brand can't exist because we don't make watches in Malaysia. We don't make watches ourselves, right? We're not watchmakers. We we design the the dial, the case, some of the movement components from an aesthetic point of view. We have technical drawings with the straps and everything, but the reality is without all the partners that we have to execute them, the watch doesn't exist. Our brand doesn't exist. And I I think that's maybe a different approach to watchmaking and from a watch brand point of view that's been that's been done previously. Um I know Max Buster did a little bit with MBNF but we are literally outsourcing everything because that's not investing in production facilities and hardware and all that kind of stuff is not what we want to do. I mean, we want to use the best people, the best companies for any given project. And that means that you know it gives us a flexibility to deliver a product that I think would be very difficult to do if we did ever |
| Unknown | ything in-house. Yeah. I mean the funny thing is it sounds revolutionary now because for the last twenty years, all anybody's talked about is in-house this, in-house that, in-house whatever. Uh and we've seen what that does to the average price of products, right? Products are getting more expensive and some sometimes they're made better, sometimes they're not. Yep. Um but this is the way watches used to be made, right? Like for I believe so, yeah. The nineteenth century and most of the twentieth century, this this |
| Unknown | is how watches got made. Yep. Yeah, that's right. It was I mean, historically, watch making in Switzerland was an inherently collaborative enterprise. Uh same in the UK, you know, where you would have um over a hundred different people involved in making of different components for different timepieces. And at some point the idea that in-house was inherently leaving aside other considerations was inherently a superior way to proceed, you know, kind of got stuck in everybody's head. And I think it got stuck in manufacturers' heads as well. And there's been an enormous amount of time, energy, and effort expended, you know, kind of across the board from for uh I mean in just about every brand that I can think of, you know, tries to um, you know, frame itself as doing everything under one roof. And it's not necessarily an advantageous way to proceed, either from a quality standpoint or an efficiency standpoint, or uh, you know, from a pricing standpoint |
| Unknown | . Yeah. Yeah. I mean I think and I also think from an integrity standpoint we it would make no sense for us to claim that we do everything else else, right? Even if nobody has seen our version of the Schwarzen movement of the nineteen oh two before, it it would would just I don't know. It resonates wrong with me as a collector. You know, I I believe that our customers and our clientele are smart enough to tell the difference. You know, they're smart enough to appreciate the honesty. So we give credit to it, we give credit to our suppliers because without them we can't exist. And you'll see that going forward. So the 1902 is the first one which we've had that's co-branded. The rotor has Schwarz Stien Feming on it. I mean going forward we acknowledge the partnerships with um Jean Rosso who make all of our straps now, even on the seventeen series. Um all of those new straps will have Jean Rosseau Ferming on them. You know, and as we go forward with with other um other major parties, it'll be the same thing |
| Unknown | . Yeah, and I mean it's it's transparency, right? And I think, you know, that you mentioned it, but that speaks to the fact that you're a collector, right? Like you're you're a watch guy who started a watch brand, not somebody who saw a sort of economic opportunity and started a watch brand. I think there are a lot of much easier ways to make a lot more money than making watches. I think I think anyone who makes wat |
| Unknown | ches would agree with that. Yeah. |
| Unknown | is that there's a surprisingly large number of people involved in uh making and designing watches who uh really have a lot of emotional commitment to what they're doing. Yeah. Um and as he's saying it's you know, there there are a lot easier ways to make a living. There are a lot eas easier ways uh to to make money than uh |
| Unknown | Yeah. But we're lucky I think we're very lucky to have in our partners individuals who are really passionate about the projects. I mean there's another project that we're working on where an early prototype was put together. I I saw it um you know last week in in Geneva and um you know the whole team was there progress meeting we we put some of the components together and just went okay wow you know this is it it makes you know we get that warm, fuzzy feeling inside and we're all excited to make it happen. I I you want that level of commitment from your partners, but so rarely do you get it. You know, we're so fortunate to have that. |
| Unknown | Yeah. By the way, um, can we assume that one of the things that you do not outsource is uh product photography? |
| Unknown | Uh no, we don't outsource product photography. But you know what? If I this is one of the weird things I find that um we get told a lot that the watches look better in the metal, and I you know part of that part of me takes that personally, and part of me goes, Well, no, because there's so many reflections in the dial, and so many, and you know, so much of that contributes to your sense of depth, your left eye and your right eye see things differently. Three dimensions versus two. So, you know, I try not to take it personally, but then I go, okay, you know what, maybe we should fire the photographer |
| Unknown | . So one one thing before we start wrapping up that I did want to mention is yesterday I guess two days ago now, uh the GPHG uh announced the short list for this fall's awards. Yes. And you guys are once again uh |
| Unknown | nominated. Second time round. I mean I think uh I don't know how many two year old brands have been nominated in both years of their existence in different categories. I think that that may be a first, maybe, maybe not. Um might be. It might be, yeah. You can check. We are very honored and very and very humbled to be you know in that pantheon. Um, I think it speaks volumes for the support that we get from the industry. And you know, it just it makes us keep wanting to do better product. You know, every every time we look at a product, a second revision, third revision, new product, we go, how can we improve this from last time? Yeah. And you know, I think the public sees that we've we've got quite a few models that we've only been around for two years. You know, we our second anniversary is the 15th of August. So we've literally been around for two years. In that time, if you're counting the 1706s, we've we've launched twelve different models. Um you know, next year we've got between four and five on the drawing board, um, most of which, in fact, I think almost all of which are are basically all new. Right. And I like to think at this point we we stop when we run out of ideas, but we've got a we've got this design board in the office that's um you know pretty big. I think it's like eight feet high by what, fifteen, sixteen feet across. Um and each idea we have is is on an A4 piece of paper. The board is covered. And every time we go into the office, we sit there, stare at it for a while, and okay, this doesn't work, we take it down, we replace it, we take it down, we replace it. So it' thiss continuous evolution process. And being recognized for that is it's very satisfying. Um, you know, it it feels like we've come a long way, right? I think if if I'd said to the original, to the original founding group, look in in two years we're we're gonna have twelve different watches and and we're gonna be in GPHG twice uh in the finals, I think they would have said, Yeah, right, I don't believe you. You know, we're we're not doing this. But you know, we look at it now and we still pinch ourselves occasionally and go, we're we're a new brand from the wrong part of the world. People like our stuff, and and we you know we we're really doing something that we believe in, we're doing something other people believe in. And it's not it's almost gone to the point where I'm not trying to sell you a watch anymore. I'm selling you an idea of what a watch can be, right? It's got to be something that it makes you feel good, firstly. The whole experience makes you feel good. The purchasing experience, the unboxing, everything else. So we pay a lot of attention to our packaging. It's got to be something that you look at and you go okay you know I appreciate the detail that's gone into I appreciate the thought that's gone into it it's got to be something that is not static so you see it under different lighting conditions um you know, change the straps on it, and it feels like a different watch every time. So it's it's like you know, you're rediscovering your relationship with with somebody, and it's it's it's that sort of very nice evolution, right? You grow with it. And all I can say is that I I'm extremely grateful and the whole team is extremely grateful for all of the people who've supported our idea. You know, and and there's been so many of them, the customers, our suppliers, you know, the media, you guys. You know, without without you we don't exist. And and we we''rere very very honored for that |
| Unknown | . Great. Well we're running short on time. So I think to wrap things up we'll uh we'll run through our Houdinky questionnaire, the uh rapid fire questions we always do. So uh to start things off, what's a watch that's caught your eye recent |
| Unknown | ly? GP Cosmos. Um, you know, I I'm a sucker for the lube, I'm a sucker for the complications. I love the big dome sapphire. I think you could probably see why if you look at our watches. Um I like that it's it's a it's a unique mechanical construction. I like that it's actually quite reductionist in a lot of ways. It's actually quite simple. Um I've not seen one in the metal, but you know that's it's an example of a watch that's designed to not just look good during the day but also at night. And we try and do that with ours as well. So to see um somebody else's take on that I think is also really interesting. Nice. It fits with the whole concept too. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Uh what's the best place you've traveled in the last year? Ooh, that's a tough one. Um it's actually a I would say it's a a small, a small segment of a much larger place. I mean, I'm I'm a huge, huge uh Japanophile. So I I tend to go there to decompress and go watch shopping and go camera shopping and stuff my face with sushi and just you know sit in the gardens for a while and enjoy that. But it sounds pretty perfect. Yeah, yeah. When we can get away with it. We found a um we found a little uh probably the only Ryokan in central Tokyo called the Hoshinoya. That place is fantastic. It's like a little oasis. Amazing. And and probably my favorite place one of my favorite hotels of all time, actually. Perfect |
| Unknown | . Yeah. Uh what is the best piece of advice you've ever been given and who gave it to you? It's be |
| Unknown | patient. And it's been given to me by so many people because my I don't know my whole background, I've I graduated at sixteen, so everything's been done quickly. You know, I I'm so used to push, push, push, push, push, push, push, how much can we do faster? And sometimes the timing is not right. You know, I I've been told just wait, let things settle, let you know, let yourself settle, you know, develop a little bit more, um, a bit more feel for the situation. Don't rush in. And it's it's something I consciously have to pull back and hold myself back and doing. And even then I think I'm still going too quickly in a lot of situations. But everybody's been telling me just slow down, be a bit more meet and a bit more considered. And every time I have, I'm very glad that they've given me that advice. And it's it's literally I can't count how many people. Perfect. And uh the last thing is what's your guilty pleasure? I think it's a company-wide guilty pleasure. We we have a company humidor. Um, our design meetings, our operational meetings, everything is in a big cloud of fragrant smoke, you know. So that's that's uh collective guilty pleasure. |
| Unknown | Great, yeah. So to wrap up, uh we like to close with a cultural recommendation. So uh a book, a film, uh museum, something you recommend people go check out when they're done listening to the episode. Anything you'd like to uh to recomm |
| Unknown | end I'm a big fan of paintings by um by Rene Magrit and Edward Hopper. You know, both because they've got this very nice, surreal, pastel calm aesthetic, but there's also this underlying tension in all of them, and I think that's kind of interesting because from a compositional design aesthetic standpoint, they're very distinctive. They are very simple in a way, but the idea is very strong. And they develop to the point that it's very consistent, you know exactly what you're looking at. Um but if you look closely you get rewarded for that further observation. And you know that kind of philosophy is something that I take away with me whether I'm looking to buy something, whether I'm designing something, whether I'm composing something. |
| Unknown | Great. That's interesting. Both of those artists kind of embody in different in different ways the principle of reductionism you were talking about earlier |
| Unknown | . Um what else could it be? What else might it be? You know, if we imagine a little bit and throw out all of the expectations and conventions and and history and baggage and everything else, what else can we do? Great. Jack, you have something you want to rec |
| Unknown | ommend? It's a very, very, very, very somber book and extremely difficult to read. Perfect. You've sold me. But it's it's an experience. It's called Ghosts of the Tsunami by Richard Lloyd Perry. And um it's uh it's a sort of narrative written by an Englishman who's lived in Japan for many years about uh how culturally and spiritually the tsunami following the great Tohoku earthquake in t in 2011 kind of affected Japan in general and affected uh the area that was most hard hit uh up in northern Japan. And there's one chapter that was published as a sort of excerpt before the book um uh the whole book came out which talks about an epid an epidemic of uh spirit possession that happened, uh thousands and thousands and thousands of cases in the Tohoku region. Um and you know, people who'd never had supernatural experiences in their lives. Uh there was something about the whole thing that kind of shattered the uh perceived boundary between this world and the next. And uh, you know, it just makes the hair stand up on your head to read it. Um, you know, these are real experiences that happen to real people, and uh it's frame and the book it's so the article was really interesting to read in and the book it's framed in a larger context of the uh the the the the cultural impact of the uh of the tsunami and the personal impact. Um I can't recommend it highly enough. It's uh probably one of the ten best books I've ever read. Amazing. Um but tough tough very tough to get through in in in places |
| Unknown | . We have long haul flights coming up. Yeah. Back to Asia we have long haul flights coming up so that sounds perfect actually. |
| Unknown | Um I'm gonna recommend a TV show, uh the second season of which just came out on Netflix, um Mindhunter, uh, which is based on a book. It's about the FBI behavioral science unit that developed the theoretical underpinnings and the term serial killer in the late 70s and and in into the early 80s. Um it's extremely well made. Uh David Fincher directs most of it. Um, if you like Fincher, this is I guess 19 hours of David Fincher between the two seasons. Uh it's pretty great. If you like Zodiac, uh, which is one of my favorite films, um if you like seven, uh parts of it are a little bit gruesome, parts of it are um emotionally disturbing, I would say, but it's uh I can't imagine why. Yeah, yeah, right. It's uh it's exceptionally well acted, it's exceptionally well made. If you if you like watching somebody who is I think one of the greatest living filmmakers just kind of like flex his muscles with a giant budget and an amazing cast of actors. Like I wish I had a joint budget. It's oh yeah, don't don't we don't we all man. Yeah. Um yeah, highly recommend it. Yeah. Cool. Well this has been fun. Thank you so much for coming in and uh it's good to finally meet you face to face. Thank you for having us. It's been a it' |
| Unknown | s been a pleasure. I mean uh it's been an experience. New York has been an experience. We'll uh we'll take it with us for always. Awesome. Safe travels and uh hopefully we'll see you back here soon. Absolutely. Thanks for |
| Unknown | the support, guys. Thanks so much for being on the show, Mang. This week's episode was recorded at Hodinki HQ in New York City and at the Trunk Hotel in Shibuya, Tokyo. It was produced and edited by Grayson Korhonen. Please remember to subscribe and rate the show, it really does make a difference for us. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next week |