Om Malik (Founder, GigaOm)¶
Published on Mon, 30 Jul 2018 10:00:00 +0000
When we decided to do a podcast, having Om on as an early guest was a no-brainer. He's probably best known to most people as the founder of GigaOm, one of the original tech blogs, but he's also written for nearly every outlet of note you can imagine, including the Wall Street Journal, the New Yorker, Forbes, and more. The guy is incredibly smart and thoughtful, without an ounce of pretension. But at the same time, he's got killer taste and a good sense of humor to balance everything out. In this episode, your host Stephen Pulvirent and HODINKEE Founder and CEO Ben Clymer sit down with Om for a conversation about watches, photography, journalism, and tons of other things. Enjoy.
Synopsis¶
In this episode of Hodinkee Radio, hosts Stephen Pulvirent and Ben Clymer sit down with their friend Om Malik, partner at True Ventures and former founder of GigaOm, for a wide-ranging conversation about watches, photography, design, and the pursuit of happiness. The three friends reminisce about how they first met in Paris in 2012, when Ben was still running Hodinkee as a small blog and Om was attending the Le Web conference. That initial meeting, facilitated by a Twitter introduction from Michael Williams of A Continuous Lean, led to a watch walk through Paris and the beginning of a lasting friendship that eventually brought True Ventures to become one of Hodinkee's largest investors.
The conversation explores Om's evolution as a watch collector, moving from interest in high-end Swiss brands like Audemars Piguet and Patek Philippe toward more accessible luxury brands like Grand Seiko and Nomos. Om discusses his appreciation for Japanese craftsmanship and his belief that watches should be judged by their emotional appeal and craftsmanship rather than brand prestige. The discussion touches on the watch world's tendency toward elitism and snobbery, with all three agreeing that affordable watches and well-designed pieces from non-traditional brands deserve recognition. They debate the merits of quartz movements, the Apple Watch's impact on the industry, and the importance of dial design, with Om expressing particular interest in interviewing the designers who create watch dials. The episode concludes with Om sharing his philosophy of prioritizing happiness in all aspects of life, from the products we own to the people we spend time with, revealing that he recently left Facebook to focus on living according to his own values rather than external validation.
Links¶
Transcript¶
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| Unknown | Um Malik is one of those people who every time you see him, you wonder, why don't I spend more time with this guy? He has a warmth and a curiosity that find their way into absolutely everything he does. Uh, you might know him from the blog he founded at GigaOm, or maybe from his current position as a partner at True Ventures, a venture capital firm in San Francisco. But Ohm is also a passionate watch collector and photographer, and he's extremely thoughtful about everything he does. Our founder and CEO, Ben Klymer, and I had a chance to sit down with our friend Ohm a few weeks ago in San Francisco, and the conversation went a lot of different directions, all of them good. I'm your host Stephen Pullmarant and this is Hodinky Radio. This week's episode is brought to you by Tudor. Stay tuned later in the show for a look at the Heritage Black Bay Chrono, a new take on one of Tudor's most iconic watches. You can also learn more at TutorWatch.com. Thanks so much for joining us, Ohm. It's really good to have you uh have you here this week, or I guess for us to be here with you in San Francisco. That's right. Uh we've known each other kind of a while and I met you through Ben actually, but when was the first time you guys met? It's been a while. It's been maybe a |
| Unknown | little too long. Yeah. Too long. |
| Unknown | It was uh it was b Ben was still a boy with the blog. And then we uh I think we started communicating. I was a a fan of of GigaOm, obviously. Uh and I think we started communicating on Twitter first, back when Twitter was a thing. Uh that tells you how long ago it was. And then we were both in Paris one December. I think you were there for Le Web. Yeah. I believe. Which is the greatest name for a conference of the web of Le Web. |
| Unknown | From what I understand, you were there to meet some vintage watch I mean there's a there's at least a fifty percent. Usually white number of things the reason you were there. You told me. No, but just to put a finer point on our first time we communicated was on Twitter, but the guy who connected us was Michael Williams from uh Paul and Williams. Is that true? Yeah, yeah. I don't know if that's email introductions. Interesting. And and uh it was from there like he made the introductions and you know rest is history. And now here we are, hanging out making a podcast. And now you m you made an introduction back to him with me. I did, right? I did do that, correct? Wait a second. So you fell out of touch with Michael and Ben did re- No, no, what had happened was it was on Twitter and and Michael had said you should follow Ben. Oh, yeah. That was an introduction. I see. Okay. And so I followed Ben. Okay. And now you're stuck with me. No. You can say stuck, I |
| Unknown | say privileged. Oh, what a good idea. Oh man. Yeah. And so we we were both in Paris that December. Why? The real one is still in London. Yeah, for sure. Sure. But I mean, you know. It's right next door. How |
| Unknown | can you not go? Yeah, true. Um and then we went into a Wempey, I think. Or maybe an A P boutique. We did. We went on a w people go for a photo walk, we went on a watch walk. Yeah, which which again is kind of par for the course. I like I learned more on their walk than I ever did on |
| Unknown | anything. I I I remember that that that trip well I mean that was m several years ago, more than five years ago at this point. And I just remember thinking like this this was one of those it was one of the first kind of like cool moments where I got to meet somebody from a totally different world. You know, not the watch world, not the luxury world, but from tech and and journalism for that matter. I think I was actually may have been in journalism school at the time. Um and it was just kind of a neat experience. |
| Unknown | It was two thousand twelve, actually, if I remember correctly. Wow. And uh that that La Web I met spent time with Ben from Quirky and and Jamie Simonov from Ring and so there's a lot of and you know, a lot the worlds came together at that event. And you know you and it's funnily how you know Jamie and you ended up in the true family. Yeah. Yeah. And I think uh that that's may |
| Unknown | be worth explaining to to the listeners is that so so Ohm is now a partner at True Ventures, which is a great uh venture capital firm here in San Francisco. And they are one of our largest investors and probably would say biggest supporter. Uh emotionally, financially, you know. Basically every which |
| Unknown | way they can. But me uh me and uh Ben are just friends long before True got involved. That's for sure. I think Ben was the guy I just talked to about watches. Yeah. Yeah. He's got it talking |
| Unknown | about But yeah, it it it is funny to think how it all worked out now that we I mean we we don't really work together personally, but we our companies work together and it's just kind of a lovely thing how it all worked out. I'm just a reader, a fan, likewise. |
| Unknown | That's good though. We need some of that from time to time. Steven definitely needs that. Yeah, for sure. What would what would be your biggest criticism right now? If you had to give us some some advice. I think the there is a certain |
| Unknown | um level of you know not how in keeper generally speaking about the watch world is that you know people speak down on people who don't know about watches. Similarly how photographers speak down on people who don't know photography or designers talk down to people who don't know design. I think if there was one criticism of the watch world it would be just like so what I like the damn dial. That's my starting point of a watch. Why should you talk down? You know, I don't know some people don't care about what ETA it is. Some people like Kino, you know, what's his name? Bill Max, his watches. So what's wrong with that? And I think talking down to people is I kind of makes it it makes it feel like, oh, I'm I'm not welcome here, so why am I wasting my money on this? And I think I felt that during design time as well. And even technology people were like that. It's like you know, so I think just it's just the nature of experts, right? They just kinda talk down it. Yeah. I mean it that's not really criticism, that's just an observation. You know, I what we could see more of is like what I'm seeing more of lately in uh Hodinki and I got nothing to do with it is the more affordable watch coverage. I think that just is uh you know in in in expensive jewelry is great if you live in in the Middle East, but some of us live in the real world and don't have that kind of money. You know. So I I l I like the the idea of having affordable luxury what and you know you know, approachable luxury items so people can actually get into the idea |
| Unknown | of analog time. Yeah. I mean your personal collecting has kind of gone in that direction too, right? I mean, going from you know, being more interested in the APs and paddocks of the world to being more interested now in things like Grand Seco and Gnomos, right |
| Unknown | ? I I would say I was very big on Gnomos for a very long time, but I'm kind of off the brand because there's very many more people wearing it. So a little snobby, but why not? It's all right. And uh but again, you know, Ben introduced me to Nermos and that was the time we went to Vampy to buy the box. That's exactly right. I'm remembering that now. And uh I still have the watch. You know, just like which uh which one is it? Zurich. Okay. I still have it keep keeping it mostly for you know, sentimental reasons, not for any other. And um I think yeah I like I like Grand Seiko mostly because you know it it's like a symbol of the Japanese craftsmanship, the care they take and put in their product is immense. And you know, in a certain part of the watch collector community, they are very well loved and recognized, but materi majority of the world still looks at Switzerland for innovation. Similar, you know, it's like a same thing I have. It's like some of the best shoes are being made in Japan, some of the best suits are being made in Japan. So why do we have to be more conventional and go to Europe to find what is aesthetically and you know emotionally appealing to us? I I find Japanese products really high quality and well-made and Grand Seiko is fantastic. I I think Seiko's just the pre-sage is just one of the most underrated watch. You guys have a couple of those in in uh in the store and you gave me one for Christmas and thank you for that. And uh welcome. And you know, so I I find those watches are more approachable and like they feel more fun and like and also it doesn't feel like you're wearing a Porsche on your hand. Somebody might just cut it off. It's like and also who are you trying to impress with it? Like you know, I think watches are such an emotional personal thing and it they need to f say something to you more than to anyone else. I think brands mean nothing. It just is the emotion of a watch and the craftsmanship. And you know that and that's not, you know, in a in a label. And I think uh you know, I I I I prefer smaller brands anyway, as you've known very well. Like I don't like to support the big, you know, media ad supported conglomerate, you know, consumer system. I prefer small craftsman. Like I loved um the other one watch you recommended, uh the the Swiss guy. I f Oh, uh Oxen Jr. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, you know, it's different. You know it's not not everybody's taste, but it's a beautiful, beautiful piece of work. And like you just kind of say, wow, how much imagination has gone into making something which has been around forever into so magical. I think that's what I like is the |
| Unknown | small small guys do that a lot. Yeah and and Knox and Jr. is obviously a fascinating kind of case study because first of all, th there's no branding on the dial ever. Yeah. Uh at most it'll be on the case back, occasionally on the back of the strap. Uh, you know, really kind of anti luxury. They don't use any of the the the traditional Swiss watch suppliers, even though they are Swiss based. Uh it's a lot of F one and a lot of um aerospace companies. Right. And then of course that they do things in a totally different way mechanically speaking. So they do perpetual calendars and annual calendars using an EDA twenty eight ninety two with I think at at most five to nine additional components. I think the annual calendar f isive additional components, which is insane. Yeah. And it it's just it's it's a fascinating brand. I remember when when we celebrated our fifth anniversary, which is crazy to think that was five years ago. We we commissioned two uh special uh Oxen Jr. watches that said you know fifth anniversary Hodinky. Uh I kept one and then the other one we gave away uh to to somebody and we made it in sterling silver so the case would patina uh the moon it was moon Tas uh was also in Sterling Silver. They they really make something special that that surely ninety nine point nine nine percent of humanity will not recognize as at all. Right. The only thing I didn't like about that watch was the strap. Oh those uh sturgeon straps, yeah, I'm not a fan either. They're they're tough. They are they are tough, but it it it goes very much with who |
| Unknown | they are. Yeah. You know. Yeah. No, but I I did I didn't like the brand a lot. Thank you for introducing me |
| Unknown | . About Grand Seco that's appealing is that it's not Swiss and that it's not European and that kind of like traditional Western luxury system. Um I mean, Ben, I know I've seen you in Switzerland wearing a very nice Grand Seiko. Uh it definitely gets some looks, right? Yeah, it it it does |
| Unknown | . Uh I I am not I mean I'm wearing a protect Philippe right now, so it's like kind of the opposite of what you're talking about. And it's gold on a gold bracelet. So it's literally the the antithesis of the R. It's like the most old world luxury. It is, in fact. Um but you know, I I I have a little a little bit of those tendencies as well. Uh so when I was in uh Geneva for the SIHH and and earlier I was wearing a Grand Seiko. Uh and it it it does get some looks and I think like people who really know watches th there's a gentleman in in Geneva that I'm friends with named Patrick Kramers who's actually the the he's on the the product team for Protect Philippe and he also runs their their Geneva salon. But he's a real watch guy. You know he he wears Carivulty line and he actually has another store that there sells Kari. Uh and you know I walked into the the Patek salon and most people there like, you know, what what the fuck is this? You know like this is a Seiko, they're thinking it's like a fifty dollar watch. And Patrick, who knows everything and mind you sells million dollar paddocks all day long, uh took and said, wow. You know, and he looped it and he just said the quality on this is out of control. Uh and really the the quality on on that watch, if you look at it under a loop next to anything from Patek in the similar price point, it's it's embarrassing for Patek. It's embarrassing for for most Swiss brands, you know? Um it's really it's it's a fun thing. But the the Swiss are and I've seen it firsthand, they are deathly afraid of of anything that's not their own, uh even going as far to to be afraid of Langa when when they were when they were new, and they still are, you know, and and they should be for the record. They're amazing. You know, but th there have been times where I remember um early on I was having lunch with somebody who was then uh a high ranking official at an LVMH brand. Uh and his brand had lost the Grand Prix when I was a jury member to a Grand Seiko. And it was a Grand Seiko Spring Drive, it was a chronograph, it was watched a bunch of space. It's a fast, it's a crazy watch. And he was just irate. He couldn't believe that the It really is. But I mean that that's how it's viewed by by some, not all, uh Swiss executives. If if it's not if it's not their own, if it's not somebody that if it's not Rolex, Omega, Pat Tech, whatever, uh they just kind of dismiss it. And so he was confusing a Grand Seiko Spring Drive, which went into space and had several technical accolades behind it, with a a a court citizen. And I was just like, you have no idea what you're saying right now. Uh but you know you just it just kind of is what it is |
| Unknown | . I think sometimes I wonder when industries get too established, they become very uh fossilized in their thinking. I think why would uh watch company like Daniel Wellington exist? Right? Yeah Kendall Kendall General Right. But like that they missed the whole movement. The s you know, the Swiss watch industry missed it. Like I don't think they have Sw |
| Unknown | iss movements. They have some Chinese movements. Absolutely. Daniel Wellington makes everything in China. They actually they actually own their factory. It's crazy. I did a big story on them at Bloomberg a couple years ago and it's the whole thing is built on Instagram marketing and owning their manufacturing. Right. And I think the why did that happen |
| Unknown | ? Why didn't Swatch wake up to that opportunity? And I think that's when you l look too much inwards, I think you stop thinking about the opportunities. Any company, you know, you we've seen it in tech world time and time again, you know, like for the longest time you had Microsoft looking inwards and, you know, and like and it never really looked at the opportunities outside of how it thought about its its world and its business. And I think that's that's important for people to be, you know, thinking about I think the Clayton's uh Clayton Christians innovators dilemma works in the watch world as well. I think I mean they did not see the the Apple Watch coming. You know, people joke about it that it's a failure and what. It's a three billion dollar a year failure. I don't know how many you know, tech startups are out there which can call Yeah. I mean we we just got finished closing our second |
| Unknown | issue of the magazine where where where I write about the Apple Watch extensively. And it it's amazing. It the to to call that product a failure. It's a failure only relative to Apple's other successes. Which we you know, where every other product becomes actually ubiquitous and it's just a part of of society. The Apple Watch is not that, but relative to any other product on this planet, it it's a wild success. I think the watch, you know, is |
| Unknown | is probably the biggest disservice Apple did by calling it the Apple Watch. And I also think, you know, we've um we don't really look at watches as and you know from a context of the society we live in, right? So the watch the wristwatch and you know came f for military and army reasons, not for aesthetic reasons, not and then it became more popular because we had an industrialized society. So we needed the nine to five time and certain kind of, you know, needs were there from people, the clocks and everything needed and that's why we had the big upsurge in in the adoption of watches, right? Like as a technology. And now we live in a world which is like we we we live in a world of subfractional you know uh section subfraction seconds of attention. So the watch doesn't make any sense in that time. It's all about information streams, it's about notifications, it's about interactions with the outside world, it's about being connected. It's less about being the time. I think just like the iPhone is less about the phone, it's more about everything else. And I think watches everything else. I think even Apple doesn't re understand that that by focusing so much on time and like they haven't really invested enough in the ecosystem to encourage great applications which actually benefit the platform and think about time not in minutes, seconds and hours, but more as time as a unit of attention. I think that is the biggest challenge of the Apple Watch. And all the entire smartwatch, you know, industry is that they're they're trying to make a watch. Man, there is so many people making great watches. Why the hell would I wear an ugly Android watch? And I'm sorry, no matter how great Johnny I might be, Apple Watch will never look as beautiful as my grand saco or as my pathek. It won't. But it will do it can do things which are just so much more amazing than any of these things can do. And I think there is there is a very separation which needs to happen. We need to think about the unit uh you know the smartwatches not as watches but more as like a a s a screen for you know connecting us to the world which we live in. |
| Unknown | Yeah. That that that's actually really interesting. The the idea that that Apple kind of trivialized the product by calling it a watch, I I never really thought of, but I think you're you're absolutely right. So I mean it's by calling it a a watch, which none of us need and which I admit freely all the time. Completely uh they they've really kind of taken the rug out from from under it in terms of how people view it in in their mind, because we all know nobody needs to watch. I I wonder what it could have been called that would have given it more substance or some sort of kind of more relevance |
| Unknown | . You know, as we were investors in Fitbit. So when you talk about Fitbit, that was actually a product which spoke to the function it was supposed to do. And I you know, I use Apple Watch to track my blood pressure and you know I'm super curious about what they do with their with the medical s research they're going to do. Those things are just not possible with, you know, regular phones and regular devices. And I think that's where for me that's the opportunity. It's just that wearable aspect of of this computer is the opportunity. And I think it would be an interesting one to see how it evolves. But again, like you know, I'm not going to dismiss that as a platform. People dismissed iPhone as a as a joke for first three years of its existence. It had no keyboard. Yeah, it had no keyboard. What were you gonna do with no keyboard? And it was two G. Right. Right. Could couldn't cut and paste. Yeah. Really couldn't. I forgot about cut and paste. Right. And I think people like it takes a |
| Unknown | while for imagination to kick in. Yeah. Do you think the watch gets there? Do you think they eventually figure it out and do you think Apple Watch becomes if not as ubiquitous as I as the iPhone sort of as ubiquitous? I mean somewhere close at least? |
| Unknown | So on the weekend I actually leave my iPhone at home and I just go out with the Apple Watch and the AirPods. Okay. And you know, unfortunately, um, I have to leave my nice watch at home but it's okay. But when I go out for the weekend, that's my thing. I do that mostly to kind of get away from the screen. And it helps. Like all I need to do is, you know, sometimes call a taxi or you know, the Uber app works on it and the phone is still there. So I think it's made the watch is more useful today than it was when it launched. Right |
| Unknown | ? Sig significantly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean th to me, as I said in review of it when it when series three came out, the cellular capabilities is a game changer. Uh and having met with people on the Apple Watch team within the past few months, you know, whenever they talk about the future of Apple Watch, they they tend to crack a smile. Uh and really feels like they know exactly what they're doing. So I I don't think it ever becomes iPhone, but I think it's gonna be pretty damn close once we realize how powerful it could be for health and once doctors start prescribing people to wear them, which they will, uh they we all know that they they could have deal with Aetna not long ago to offer subsidized, almost free Apple Watches. I mean just think about. I mean Aetna has 20 million subscribers. |
| Unknown | So just to be clear, it was the fifth year when the iPhone actually took off. Just remember, like from two thousand ten to two thousand and twelve, even Instagram had about ten million follower people on on the platform. Right. And like, you know, photography wasn't a thing. I think photography became the killer application. Selfie in my mind is what has helped drive the um smartphone adoption more than anything else. I know I'm joking, but it's actually true. Like there is no more one function outside of messaging and and email that people do the most is like take pictures. Of course. Right. And and I think uh iWatch is waiting for some of that magic, like what that |
| Unknown | is Yeah, I think we we saw a little dose of how personal it can be with you know you could you could send your heartbeat to people, which which was kind of like romantic and grandiose, but also kind of lovely that that they thought of some of doing something like that. And I think that that to me feels like them giving a like a subtle tip of the hat or a subtle nod to what what lay ahead. Uh in in speaking with those guys, like they view this as the most personal device they've ever created, and it is, obviously. Um but I think in the next few years we're gonna see something something significant there |
| Unknown | . Aaron Powell There's something so charming about the heartbeat thing. It's just like it kind of puts a smile on your face. It's I I can't remember having ever used it except right when I got it, just to see if it worked. Um It does for the record. It does for the record. It does work. Uh but there's something really charming about it that I think makes the product feel a little better and a little like nicer than than it might otherwise. They do need to work on the interface of the apps and all those kind of things |
| Unknown | . Watch and time in the past, not you know time and our re you know, uh relationship with time, yeah, present and in the future. I think that's where y if any interface needs to happen it needs to need to be thinking about those things. But in the interim I have to say the the old school wristwatch interface for me in an analog watch, nothing better than |
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| Unknown | . And so I have a question for the two of you. Okay. And I you know I'm gonna turn the tables. So why do people not like |
| Unknown | quartz watches? Well, this is what we get for bringing a journalist on the show. Uh is he turns it around on us immediately. Former journalists. For uh for once a journalist, always a journalist. I don't know. Ben, you wanna |
| Unknown | you wanna take a stab at this first? Sure, I'll I'll stab. I mean first of all there are several people that do like quartz watches, our own Jack Forrester being one of them. I've I've toyed with the idea of buying a Grand Seco nine F, which is their high end uh grand excuse me, high end uh quartz movement. I I think so much of of mechan so much of mechanical watch making, high end watchmaking, is about the movement and about the feeling that you get winding it or or w it winding on your wrists, you know, that this kind of there's this beautiful symbiotic relationship where it relies on you as much as you rely on it. Uh a course movement does not rely on you. It relies on a battery that you can buy at Walmart for eight dollars or less. Uh I think, you know, so much of this is about charm and and kind of the the the fun factor and the the nostalgia of what watches are about. And with courts, you you certainly lose that, uh, I think. And I think that's a that's a big reason why a lot of guys don't get into courts. But as somebody who's been around watches a lot, like in fact way too much, uh you know, th there's appeal to a really high-end courts courts movement. And I think often when when people like just in in the same way that I also really like Grubble Forzi, even though they're at times hideous. Uh and I really like Roman Gautier and a lot of these are really high-in in and watch brands. I think of uh Ralph Lauren, who, you know, when when I went to his garage in in in upstate New York, I saw these cars that were just like like when I think of Ralph Lauren, I think of vintage Jaguars in in British Racing Green and beautiful Mercedes convertibles and Goldwings and these just like epically beautiful, traditionally beautiful things. And you get there and there are carbon fiber Lamborghinis and you know blue McLaren's and just wild stuff. And I asked him about that when I met him, and he's just like you you have to like once And he's like, look, is a is a McLaren or a carbon fiber Lamborghini more beautiful than a Goldwing or, you know, a vintage Bugatti? Certainly not. But it it gives him a different joy and it's about performance and engineering and anything that that's done to the highest level is is interesting. So in that same vein, uh Seiko 9F to me is fascinating. There are other high-end courts movements that I think are fascinating. Uh Langines makes a a really high-frequency. Yeah. But you know, I think at at times uh when you think of quartz movements, you're thinking of inexpensive things which are you know slapped together in China for for pennies. And that that just doesn't have the charm that that that mechanical watches do. Yeah. |
| Unknown | I think it's also snobbery, right? I mean oh you you touched on this earlier is people love to know more than other people. And being able to kind of like, you know, dismiss quartz watches offhand is is something that like watch guys, which I'm putting in like the biggest scare quotes I possibly can. Uh watch guys love to know more than other watch guys. And so, you know, just deciding quartz movements are like a non-starter is is an easy way to make it look like you somehow are discerning or have taste or know something that somebody else doesn't know. Uh when in fact being able to appreciate something like a 9F or a longing VHP or something is is probably a higher level of conno |
| Unknown | isseurship. Trevor Burrus, I I think that that is one of the biggest problems we in our little world in the watch world have is that there's this like faux intellectualism or faux kind of like discerning taste level that that people tend to kind of like put out there when you don't really need to. I mean, we I've often written about kind of the bell curve of appreciation of Rolex. You know, when you get in when you don't know anything, you know Rolex and you like it because you've heard of it. And then as you start to learn a little bit more you say, Oh, I would never buy a Rolex, I can buy a whatever, a uh a Jaeger which is a watchmaker's brand, or an Omega because it's less expensive and you know, meta certified. And then you start to come back to Rolex. And I think there's so many people in our world, in the watch world, that ha like hear something once and then repeat it as gospel and say, you know, I I'm a I'm a kind of store, I'm an intellectual because I don't like Rolex or I don't like Pete Philippe or they hear about inner angle, which is like the ultimate like kind of like douchebag thing to say about Tech Philippe or something like they don't they don't do inner angles on when they finish their movements on some of their pieces. And it's just like okay, like you heard that once, you read that once on the purist or from Jack or something like that. You don't even know what it means. And that that is a big, big problem in the watch world, |
| Unknown | and certainly others. There's also this sense that like those inner angles, like sure, you can appreciate them in an intellectual sense and like knowing that they're there on a really beautiful hand finished movement is is great. But like how much does that actually bring you joy when you're wearing the watch on a daily basis? And the answer is I would say almost almost never. Like maybe occasionally you think about it, but I mean Oh, we've talked about this before is is you know, the dial is so important. Uh and it's something that like watch guys often are like, oh, you just you just like the look, and that's kind of dismissed. Uh but ultimately isn't that what matters? That like when you look at it that it puts a smile on your face? |
| Unknown | Exactly. I think people forget how important it is to have an interface which just speaks to you. Little joke comment, but you know, when you are uh like a watch nerd and you're wearing a really cool watch, the most of the time you're gonna get a compliment is from another dude. Correct. You we are wearing a beautiful watch, some girl is gonna tell you. That's a great watch. I'll take the compliment from the girl anytime, right? Um and you know, I I do get I do get it that people want to be more knowledgeable and all those kind of things. I think you go on men's fashion forums and you see the same thing. It's like you you don't really know what you're talking about. You just have to know what you wear and your body will tell you whether that is great or not. Your your own eyes will tell you whether this watch is, you know, working for you or not, how you feel about it. I think a lot of it is uh learning to listen to yourself and not to the marketing and the brands and what everybody else says is it's pretty hard for most people but that's where you need to end up, you know, and that's where you need to become uh uh when you become a collector, that's how you should be thinking about not what you're gonna sell in the future, but what you're gonna wear every day. I think that's how I think about, you know, collecting watches. It's like, can I wear this every day for the rest of my life? And if the watch qualifies, yeah, I know you're pointing at your beautiful Patek, and you know, I probably can't do it. Like I would not be able to wear it for the rest of my I |
| Unknown | I was kidding. Yeah. You know, it's that's I I think of the same thing. And like the watches that that I plan to keep for the rest of my life are typically new. Uh they're usually below you know five to six thousand dollars. And those are the watches that like I engrave on the back and will keep for the rest of my life, maybe give to a child if if I were to have some someday. But you know, things like this is just like it's it's kinda like it's it's fun. And it's it's a pursuit and it's it's something that like I enjoy at this point in my life where my life revolves around watches. Uh will it always revolve around ro watches? Probably not. And so it's it's like it's it's me exp like whenever I do anything I I go pretty hard for some period of time. Yeah. I didn't that about know you. Indeed. Indeed I do. Uh and so this is me just like exploring watches to the end. Yeah. And then when I hit the end, I'll stop |
| Unknown | . I agree with on on that point. Like, you know, for me, the most expensive watch I've ever owned is thanks to you is a Moser. Right? Okay. And uh and um for my fiftieth birthday I wanted to buy a watch, which I wanted to be if like you know, Indians don't like Hindus don't get buried, but it was the proverbial watch I want to wear to my grave and that's how I wanted to buy like I love this watch and basically I started planning to buy this two and a half years ago by using a really basic, you know, simple formula. I'm gonna save $20 a day for this watch. That's it. Okay. And like and I and that was like my goal was to get to a point where I can buy this watch. Not just because I could I can afford it. Like it's m you know, that's not a problem for me. But I just wanted like this adventure in like saving and and getting there and like and it was kind of fun. There's nice feeling. There's a nice feeling to it. It's like and and you know, do I wear it every day? Probably not. I probably wore it once to a friend's wedding. That's it. Um, but and I'll probably wear it to another wedding and it's not it's not an everyday watch, but it reminds me of my fifty years on the planet. And I think it's it's got an emotional appeal. That's the first time I had a watch we just said, wow, that is you. Like that is you in a watch. And I think I've always thought about that. And I think that is so important when it comes to anything. Just watches, pens, you know, people like people who make you happy every day are the people you collect. Not people who are going to cause you misery. And and that's how we should be thinking about all the objects too. Can they make you happy? Do they bring uh joy to your face every time you see them and if you don't time to get rid of them like that's not a collection that just is money sitting in a safe |
| Unknown | the the line between collecting and hoarding is uh very very thin. Yeah. I mean another thing that I know all all of us sitting here are are really interested in that kind of touches the watch world a little bit is is photography. Uh and I know Ohm, you you mentioned it earlier uh when we were talking about about the iPhone, that the kind of ubiquity of photography with smartphones has has kind of changed the role of cameras and of kind of more studied photography. Um and you are working on a book about this, right? |
| Unknown | I am. I'm working on a book. Um it's called uh The Third Eye. It's a book about you know how the camera culture has changed society and and the long-term impact of that more, not just from photography standpoint, but more from what happens when there is a visual sensor everywhere. And I think that to me is a very fascinating study. So hopefully I can get this thing done soon enough |
| Unknown | . And Ben is is currently taking Ohm's photo uh with uh like a M ten and a a Canon Dream Lens. Yeah. Uh in our nice low lit low lit studio here. Looking very sultry right now. The the delta tones and sultry photos of |
| Unknown | Of O'Malik. Yeah. No, I I've been also working on a little uh book of photos. Right. Um I you know, I fell into la uh fell in uh to this uh concept of trying to stop time and you know, like slowing down time, you know, again since this is a watch conversation, I think uh your readers will appreciate it. Like the m the time moves so fast and it actually the reason we feel the time moves so fast is because all the notifications, all the inputs, all the sensory overload we experience makes our bodies think that our time is moving much faster and the year is going you know much faster and and I decided that you know I needed to capture some of this time back and like how do I do this? And I started doing more long exposure photography. So which involves standing in like remote places and trying to find the peace and the quiet and what makes what makes the planet worth living is not just the cities, but the world outside of the cities. And that attempt turned into like a now a three year obsession. So I'm gonna put together a little book on long exposures. Cool. Essentially about stopping time. |
| Unknown | Aaron Powell For for people who are listening who don't know your work also when you say long exposures, you're not talking about 10, 15, 20 seconds. Uh we we were talking the other day and you mentioned you took a photo that was a forty minute exposure. Yeah. That's that's bonkers. You're you have to be kind of cra |
| Unknown | zy to do that, right? Yeah, I've put my Lyka SL through some serious abuse. I think I'm maybe the only one who does that, um uh who uses like SL to do long exposures. But yeah, but it's fun. For me, that is therapy, that is my way of like just kind kind of saying that, you know, the world is not that hectic and it just is a beautiful place and here it is in its in its beauty and that's forty minutes in a photo. That's what it really is. To other people it may look like a photo. To for me it was forty minutes of my life which I just stood there and enjoyed the the the vast beautiful cold landscape of you know you know the near the Arctic Circle |
| Unknown | . So for me that was fun. That's great. And what's your what's your process like for shooting this? I mean like I'm sure we have a lot of people listening who wanna know what gear you're shooting with. You mentioned you're like a SL, but like what do you do when you decide you want to go shoot these kinds of photos? Like what is that like for you? |
| Unknown | I think a lot of it is more based on instinct, how I feel about a place, a moment, like like I don't really plan. I just have my camera, I have a tripod and a bunch of filters. I use uh a tripod from a company called Really Right Stuff. I think they're like the roll throws of tripods in my mind or rather, Mercedes, because they're tough. Okay. And they don't break down. Right. And uh I use filters uh made by a company called Mind Camera Gear, which is local some uh California company. Really right stuff is a California company, you see the theme there. Um and I use a like I sell with a fifty M M lens, which is the M lens, and that's it. Like that's my kit. I use that day in, day out, never use anything else. Occasionally I will use a ninety mm lens, but that's very rare. Um I don't like wide angle lenses. I do fifty Mm and I can do you know, panoramas with fifty Mm. I'll do three photos and then stitch them together. And then Okay. Then I have a point and shoot uh film camera, Konika Big Mi uh Big Mini, Konika XR, which is just I use that as my black and white camera. Okay. I used to own a lot of cameras. I'm basically sold most of them. And like I'm just down to like three. Like I have a backup uh Fuji X100 just in case my life packs up. Okay. But that's it. That's like my kid now. It's like you know, I think once you find the thing you like, just like my grandchico, once I've found it and I just like yeah this is it. You know it's like finding your perfect mate, you know, once you once you do you don't wanna go out and date other people. You just wanna be with them. And that's the way it is with equipment and the relationship with the inanimate objects has to be as strong as the ones you have with real people. Yeah. So that's my process and you know I go to places and I'll go wandering and then something will just oh I love this place, I'm gonna stand here. And then suddenly the photos form in my head and from photo it turns into a piece of art in my head and then I'll take take one. Mostly it's like cold places. Okay. Why is that? I don't know. Maybe I grew up in India which is so hot. You're revolting? Yeah. Looking for something new. Interesting. It's it's it's fun for me to be you know, I think the like we all have our way of dealing with, you know, time, anxiety and all the stuff with the modern life and mine is just being in a place and just standing there and taking it all and and forgetting that there is other stuff, you know, which I need to worry about and just and I think photography lets me do that, like a lot. You know, and it also helps that, you know, you don't have to uh see or watch at that time. Right. Yeah. It's the only time I don't wear my seco is when I'm out taking photographs. Because I don't really want any reminder that there is a certain timeline I'm on. Okay. But you know, it's fun. Like but you know, I think for me the thing which gives me a lot of joy is is is finding uh you know folks like Ben when they were like literally one man in a blog and seeing it turn into like this big giant company. Which like it's not about the the money. It's about the big giant and influence, right? Like I think so many famous people read the site because they all feel a certain kinship. That's what I mean big big you know, side. And the influence should always be bigger than the size, I think in my mind. I think it's it's great to to be able to do what you love and like you know make a living off it. I did that for most of my life. You know, I was blessed. Like I wanted to be a journalist and I was a journalist for the longest time and I sc get to start a company and, you know, ruin it too. That's a different story. That's from the other podcast. Yeah. Yeah, but like but the idea that you get to do what you love for rest of most of your life is pretty amazing. Most people aren't that fortunate. And I think that's why when I find folks like you and I just feel so happy to see you succeed. I mean, you know why what Hodinki is special to me? It's not just because of you, because it has been And I think that's what I mean is I would have nowhere to go if you didn't exist. And you know, people who come on your on your shows and people who read the site, they also feel the same way. Where will we go? If that's the the the importance of being the hub of people's, you know, attention is so much more important. Especially when you love it like that much like you do. Yeah. Plus you're a very expensive friend too Sorry, Ben is a very expensive friend. Not only did true invest in Hodinki, I have spent more money thanks to you than anybody else. That that's kind of my lot in life is making people spend money. Yeah. Do you have like a kickback thing going on? I wish. Jesus Christ. Like Google affiliate program. It's like I don't know how many times you've taken me to Wempey. No. They haven't. Ye |
| Unknown | ah. Yeah. So Germanic of them. It really is. Yeah, it's it's one of those things where like the the foundation of the site was was personal, obviously. But but as soon as I met Steven and Will who's still with us as well, uh it really became much more than that. And and you know, even though it was never by design, it was never purposeful. I I think you're exactly right. Like giving giving people like us a place to kind of congregate, uh just intellectually, um if not physically, I I think is is kind of it it's Hodinki's greatest success and something that I'm most proud of. Uh and you know, we we've got employees that I think like that are are amazingly talented and like it they just feel like they've found a home. Uh and I think that that's a really it's a really rewarding experience for for me. I think you know, |
| Unknown | you you said to congregate intellectually and kind of digitally, but congregating in person is is also something that blows my mind every time we do it. Like when whenever I mean I've been involved with the company almost six years now, but every time we do a meetup or an event and we get, you know, a hundred and fifty people who show up on a weeknight after work to like have beers with us and see how excited they are, it's such a good reminder of why we do what we do. It is. I mean, oh you know this from from being a journalist also is it's really easy to forget when you're sitting behind your keyboard writing the next story. It's it's easy to forget what life that lives after you hit publish. Right. Uh and to remember that these things go out there and there are people the same people who are probably listening right now, uh who read these things and who care about what's being said and care about the photos you're publishing and who are interacting with other readers through the comments and then who come out to, you know, have a have a drink with us and and chat in person. Uh it's it's a really nice reminder of why you do this anyway, you know? Put smiles on faces, give give people something to be passionate about. Yeah. I think |
| Unknown | we are all coming to this planet alone. We look for our tribes, we find them, and then we leave. And I think that is and if you can enable more people to come together, you're winning. And that's how I think. I think for me, that was the big takeaway from Giga Home was that we brought together a lot of people who were of the same same same thought process. Though I know our time is coming to a close, but I have a definitely a request for the editor and the proprietor of of Hodinki. Okay. I wanna do a couple of interviews with people who design the dials of watches |
| Unknown | . Okay. Are you gonna make it happen? Absolut |
| Unknown | ely. If you wanna if you wanna write for us, I am not gonna tell you no. Absolutely not. People who design the interfaces at the dials are like some of the most innovative and underrepresented designers in the world and I think world needs to know more about them. I I would like to do that. That's great. Yeah, let's see. You don't even have to pay me |
| Unknown | . Oh, perfect. Free free work. Free work. I love. Yeah. What do you what do you think makes a good dial? Like what what interest |
| Unknown | s you about that? You know who the one guy who was like the most amazing watchmaker who actually was the gateway drug for me was uh Speak Morin. Yeah. Remember I emailed you and someone I love this guy's watches. They were so beautiful I would never wear them because they're so big and like I my I'm don't have such big hands it is they were so beautifully designed and like perfect like and you know just and the other gentleman um uh who's who's from England Roger Smith Roger Smith his dials are just like so elegant of of course Moser does like amazing for me. Like for me that is just the as good as you can get. 'Cause you also a no no logos guy |
| Unknown | . Yeah. Yeah. You're you're a no anything guy, right? So pretty much pretty much hours and minutes and that's it. Yeah. |
| Unknown | Yeah. Mike, hey, nothing wrong with that. Not at all. Not at all. You know the other guy who just did an amazing dial was uh Ease Bihar did the watch for Movado. Oh yeah, the um You know there's many variations of the watch. There is one which is just black on black and it's like oh wow. It's like who cares? It just looks so amazing |
| Unknown | . Yeah. It's always interesting when somebody from outside the watch world comes in to design something and watches 'cause it's it's such a kind of like inside baseball insider little world. Uh and then when they step in, you you tend to get interesting results. Yeah. I mean what about you? I know you are like a minimal watch guy, so whose dials do you like? Uh I mean Moser is is a big one. Uh Grand Seiko's dials are incredible. Uh and then anything that Kari Vutilainen is is making. So he owns Comblamine, the dial manufacturer. And basically anybody whose dials, he's making Gronfeld, MBNF. The the quality is just off the charts good. What |
| Unknown | about you? For for me, dials come down to uh kind of the warmth. Uh and so I've had I've had constant debates with a good friend of mine named Eric Wind, who's a now a vintage watch dealer. Uh he cares about the case a lot. You know, he it it has to be unpolished, doesn't really care what what kind of shape the dials in and I'm the exact opposite. Uh the dial to me is the personality, it's the persona of of a watch. Uh things that that show age and warmth are are are the most special to me. Uh you know, things with multiple tones, you know, two tone dials is kind of a thing. So many tones. So many tones. So many tones. Shout out to Frank Road right there with um multiple tones. Um so you know things that that are are m kind of multifaceted and and a little bit more than than uh just a standard any one color. Uh I will say, you know, I think the most beautiful watch ever, and I know Steven agrees with me and and others do as well. I've got this white gold paddock twenty five twenty six, which has an enamel dial, but it's not like snow white. It's really more of like a cream. Uh and it is just lovely. I mean it's just it's perfect. It kills me every time you wear it. It is so incredible. Yeah, it is. And you know that the there's that watch. I mean I there's you know, there are like three or four watches, you know, I've got a few watches. There are three or four that that just like will stick with me forever. That's one of them. I've got this split second Eberhard that has, it's really a three-tone dial. That is just crazy. You know, it doesn't have the same kind of emotional appeal that the 25-26 does. |
| Unknown | You know the one watch you guys did a collaboration with tag. Mm-hmm. You know, I'm not a tag guy, but that watch dial was sublime. It really was. I regret not buying that one. And uh the other guy who actually does really great uh dials is actually Bradley Price. Of course, yeah. Which is uh Autodromo. Like amazingly beautiful, like and yeah, you know, it's like there is something to them |
| Unknown | . I I agree. I mean Brad Bradley's a good friend for the record. Um but I mean this sincerely, you know, he was the one that kind of taught me that inexpensive or less expensive watches don't have to be tacky. You know, d d good design costs as much as as bad design, uh no matter the price. Uh and I think you know autodroma watches really, really have have proven that that to a lot of people like his watches are genuinely interesting, genuinely thoughtful and good looking, and they're below a thousand dollars in most cases. Yeah. I mean I o |
| Unknown | wn one uh that I paid for and I wear it all the time and I love it. It's it's just a fun, enjoyable watch. But you pay for it? I paid for it. You know. Occasionally I pay |
| Unknown | for things. I had uh one um I bought one from him, I interviewed him for Pico. Okay. And uh I gave him I b uh I bought that watch and I was wearing it and somebody who's very close to me said, I love that watch and like and I gave it to them and thin and they wear it every day more than me. So it's like gives me a lot of joy just seeing it on their hand than mine because in my case it would have been like just just like m once or twice a m maybe in a year. And in this case they wear it every single day and it just is watches need to be they need air like human beings. They need to be out there. And I think a lot of people collect watches just to keep them inside a safe, not n and they don't take them out. I want I want people to wear the watches |
| Unknown | they have. You kind of feel that way about things in general, right? Like, you know, you're not you're not a you're somebody who likes nice things, but you're not somebody who wants nice things for them to sit on a shelf. No. I have a spre |
| Unknown | adsheet on how much usage I get for everything I buy. You keep a spreadsheet? No, I only buy if I can you know I can justify if I will use it every day. That's amazing. Right. So like if I will buy a pair of pants or if I rather buy if I get the pair of pants made, I want to make sure that I wear it a hundred times. And then calculated price over a hundred times, not one time outlay. Like if it's not getting usage, it's a terrible investment. If I use it a hundred times, it's actually a great great purchase. So I would rather have like, you know, I have paired down my wardrobe down to a hundred items Okay. Except for shoes. Okay. Shoes don't count. Okay. Naturally. Yeah. And uh and like and watches don't count. So the number one is by reducing the number of things I own. The number two is not buying brand names. Number three is only focused on buying clothes which fit me and are made for me. Okay. Period. That limits my buying so much and it makes me happy that I wear everything I have. Like this sweatshirt you're seeing me wear, this is probably the hundredth time I've won wearing this. It's been like it's four years old |
| Unknown | . I mean Ben, do you have do you have a system? Or is it just kinda |
| Unknown | like ooh I like that? Uh it's it's that. But I'm not uh I'm not a consumer of most things. Uh I'm a I'm a hyper consumer of of watches, obviously, but I I'm not a shopper. Uh I I don't uh I don't really feel the need to purchase things all that often. Uh you know, I'm I'm a you know kind of like meat and potatoes type of guy in in some ways. And it's really like I I buy the basics. I buy generally high quality basics uh and I keep them kind of forever. Um but I don't have a system in in place for sure |
| Unknown | . Yeah I hate that feeling of having to replace basics. Like even just stuff like you know white shirts. It's like when you have to replace them it feels like wait a minute, why why do I have to buy this? Like I I have this thing already. Yeah. Ye |
| Unknown | ah. Well I I think those people just end up acquiring things for no reason. I was one of those people. The big thing I did was just like it started with shirts, then it went with trousers and then with jackets and and then with shoes and then everything else. It's just like yep. And this is even casual clothes, not just not like suits. I don't wear suits. I just wear you know just like trousers and like I have one jacket which which I wear for like when I'm officiating a wedding or I'm being forced to do whether I forgot you officiate weddings. Or when I have to go meet some really famous person and then they everybody wants you to wear a jacket. Like Stephen. Like mostly me, yeah. Uh like heads of state. Heads of state. Also Steven. Also yeah. But not otherwise yeah you couldn't you couldn't make me wear a damn jacket. Well, San Francisco's a perfect place for you then. No, I think I like wearing sweaters. I think sweaters are great. You know, it's like San Francisco is the ninety nine percent of the reason I've been here for fifteen years is is m is because I can wear a sweater every day. Yeah. I mean you've got three guys. Three guys in this room all wearing sweaters. But yeah. Well like you know, also sweaters do well on chubby guys, you know. They help you hide your jerk, my stomach shows up ten minutes before I do, so so sweater always helps. You know, it makes you look more you know, put together. Yeah. Versus like a s jacket which like you look a little sloppy in it. So hey. Too much information. But but also, you know, the the watches peek out nicely under underneath. |
| Unknown | Yeah. Well we're gonna have to wrap things up in just a minute, but uh I really appreciate you joining us this morning. Oh it's it's great. I mean, I think people can probably tell we're, you know, the three of us are are friends and have known each other a while and it's it's good to sit down and talk about these things kind of with a little structure instead of just, you know, through random text here and there. But you know, what what have been w,hether it's about, you know, watches or photography or design, what what's kind of the thing that's preoccupied you the the most recently? Like what's the thing that you've just been thinking about the most |
| Unknown | I think when I think about any product, any person and any any aspect of life, I always think about what's the happiness quotient here? Right? Like what's the value of hap they bring? It's not about like how important a thing is, how famous people are, how expensive a thing is. What's the happiness quotient of something? I think we don't think about that often enough. And once you start doing that, it it starts to change how your your brain functions, you know. In September I got off Facebook, not because I hated Facebook, which I actually am being very critical of Facebook all the time for last since two thousand seven. So it's not something new. I got of Facebook because I was starting to live my life based on what other people were doing, not what was making me happy. And I think last six months have been exercising that control and focusing on like everything should make me happy. And I think everybody should be thinking about whatever they own, the people they are with, where they live, it's happiness should come first more than anything else. I know most people live with a lot of constraints in life. You know, I'm fortunate enough to define my my constrain So it's pretty damn good advice for a rainy Thursday morning. It's not rainy, man. This is like a normal day for us. I can't complain. It's not snowing, so uh I'm not I'm not whining. Yeah. But I do miss New York and uh every time I come to New York I want to see you guys, so which I do. Yeah. New York misses you. Yeah. I miss New York a lot. I mean if I could do this, I could live there. Yeah. Yeah. But you can't wear sweaters in summer. This is it's a little rough, yeah |
| Unknown | . I've tried. Yeah. Didn't work. But thank you for having me. Yeah, of course. Thank you so much for joining us and uh it's gl good that we could get Ben and you and and all of us in the same room together. Thank you, Ben. Thank you, Steven. Awesome. Talk to you soon. Bye. Thank you to Ohm and to Ben for joining us. This week's episode was produced by Grayson Korhonen and was recorded at Disher Music and Sound in San Francisco. Thank you for listening and, we'll see you next week. |