Yves Béhar (Designer)¶
Published on Mon, 11 Mar 2019 10:00:00 +0000
The Swiss designer talks about growing up during the Quartz Crisis, creating products with integrity, and why his favorite products are prototypes.
Synopsis¶
In this episode of Hodinkee Radio, host Stephen Pulvirent sits down with renowned Swiss-born, California-based designer Yves Béhar at the Fuse Project headquarters in San Francisco. Béhar, founder of Fuse Project in 1999, has spent over two decades shaping how global brands approach product design with integrity, working on everything from the Herman Miller Sayl chair to the Samsung Frame TV and Movado Edge watch. The conversation explores his design philosophy of prioritizing ideas over form, his commitment to solving intractable problems that consumers have almost given up on, and his unique approach of being 'specialized in diversity' rather than focusing on a single product category.
The discussion delves deeply into Béhar's Swiss heritage and how growing up during the quartz crisis of the 1970s and 80s profoundly influenced his perspective on design and innovation. He shares fascinating insights about how Swatch was initially perceived as 'the final betrayal' of Swiss watchmaking before ultimately saving the industry. Béhar reflects on his collaboration with Movado on the Edge watch, explaining his three-dimensional approach to watch design that breaks from the traditional two-dimensional, illustrator-based methods common in the industry. He advocates for both traditional Swiss watches to incorporate select technological features and smart watches to embrace some mechanical elements, predicting that the next decade will bring more original hybrid approaches. The episode concludes with Béhar discussing his excitement about working on larger-scale projects, including prefabricated buildings and underwater structures, while maintaining his passion for smaller on-body objects.
Links¶
Transcript¶
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| Unknown | Whether you know it or not, there's a pretty good ide This could be the Herman Miller sale chair you sit in all day, the Samsung frame TV that hangs on your wall at home, or the Movado edge watch strapped to your wrist right now. The Swiss-born California-based designer founded his firm Fuse Project back in 1999, and he spent the last 20 years or so heavily influencing how global brands and small startups alike create products with integrity. Just this past week, I had the chance to sit down with Eve at the Fuse Project headquarters in San Francisco. From the moment he walked into the room, I got a sort of laid-back surfer dude vibe. It's immediately disarming. Sure, he's a rockstar designer, but there's none of that brash attitude to go with it. When he talks about sustainability and looking for new ways to solve old problems, you want to lean in and make sure you get close so you don't miss a word of it. He also grew up in Switzerland in the 70s and 80s, the height of the quartz crisis. The struggles the watch industry was going through back then had a significant impact on him, and he looks back fondly on the days when Swatch was considered a rebel and maybe even a traitor to their countrymen. Don't worry, we'll get into all of that. We also cover everything from the difference between design and aesthetics, how he finds untapped potential in everyday things, and how his mother's job at Patek Philippe gave him some extra insight into how the traditional Swiss watch industry works. Whether you're a design nerd, a watch nerd, or well, I guess any kind of nerd for that matter, you're gonna like this one. I'm your host Stephen Pulverin, and this is Hodinky Radio. Thanks so much for joining us. Thanks for having me. So we're uh can you tell us, maybe all of you tell us, where where are we right now? |
| Unknown | We're at Fuse Project. Um uh we're in a small company |
| Unknown | Yeah we do actually we have a really nice view. Um so for for some of our our audience I think they'll they'll instantly know who you are. But I'm kinda curious what if if you had to describe yourself in just a couple of sentences to to someone who had never heard of you, what what would you say? I would say that I'm a designer. Okay. You |
| Unknown | know, that's the that's really the starting point for me. Um but I've been very lucky to be involved here in San Francisco, the Bay Area and around the world really on um innovation and design as well as entrepreneurship. |
| Unknown | Great. And yeah, you one of the things I think is interesting about Fuse Project, which is the the firm you you founded, is you work on a pretty diverse array of things. You know, you're not you're not somebody who's designing, you know, just things for you know what I think people would think of as the sort of like quote unquote like big tech companies. Um you do work with some of those folks, but you you work on a pretty diverse array of projects, right |
| Unknown | ? Yeah, the idea from the very beginning for me, after you know, after having worked for a few consultancies in San Francisco in the mid-90s, um that were very specialized, you know, in mostly, you know, sort of big tech and sort of consumer tech products. The idea for me was that design really shouldn't be specialized. That design is about um learning and solving um new problems and um and really is you know the touch points in our life are are so diverse why you know why wouldn't we address you know a lot of them if we can um so I often say you know we're we're we're specialized in diversity and being divers Nice. I think it's interesting too |
| Unknown | because you when you're doing client work, you obviously have to prioritize kind of the client's needs and the the specifics of each project. But I think you still have a sort of a house style, and I can't quite put my finger on what that would be, but I I feel like your projects tend to have or your products tend to have a certain feel and I don't just mean an aesthetic. Is that something you think about or is it just kind of a natural result |
| Unknown | ? I try to kind of fight this notion of design and style or that you have to sort of follow a certain style or that in order to be recognized as a designer you have to have a signature. This was something that was very prevalent I would say in the eighties and nineties in the design world and you know when I started Fuse Project um in nineteen ninety nine two thousand um I really felt that there was um there was a need for a point of view when you design, not just a sort of consultant or sort of corporate kind of outlook on design. Um but that that that point of view didn't need to be so repetitive, you know, so much about um what we would call sort of a signature uh element. Um but I guess, you know, I guess you can say that there is an approach and there is a a belief that permeates hopefully all of our projects, which is that, you know, for me, the designs have to follow ideas rather than form. And you know, what we try to do, and maybe that be what what has become recognizable is we try to really focus on one or two essential ideas in a project. Uh and that means um you know th our our our the projects we work on we really try to w w work like editors, like a film editor, you know, to really distill the ideas and the story to um a few key moments. |
| Unknown | Yeah, I like I like that. Um I I think you know often the word design gets used interchangeably with with you know other words that hint on the idea of of aesthetics or form or shape or or how something appears. But you've you've already touched on the fact that this is about it's about thinking, it's about problem solving, it's about approach. How do you think people can better understand kind of what it actually means to quote unquote design something? |
| Unknown | For me it's really about finding those problems that people have you know are are are sort of conscious about but almost think that there will never be a solution for. You know, you sort of abandon any hope sometimes as a consumer to find the right product or the r you know. So you you start to almost abandon categories of products because you're like, well, you know, TVs are just this big black box on your wall and they're you know, in my tight apartment or in my tight living environment, you know, I don't want that void, this sort of that black void, for example, with a you know television. And you know, this this is an example I'm using here with a Samsung The Frame TV, which you know was was a problem I I saw, and I'm like, look, you know, you know these are technological entertainment objects, but they really aren't used often enough for people to justify having this black um screen, you know, on their walls. And so we built an entire um Product and content with an art collection as well as well as technology because it's a sensor-based television, because it has a sensor in uh in uh for the first time actually um we we put a sensor in a TV that that can determine the amount of light in the room and change the image um you know, adjust um the image of the art piece, you know, to ambient light, which makes it doesn't make it look like a TV, it makes it look like a um you know just um just a printed or painted uh image um you know on your on your wall. You know, this is an example of solving a problem that we almost had given up on. Um and now it's really fun for me to see all these interior designers and architects um and people in general just putting art on their wall and you know, for the few times that they use it as a television to watch entertainment, they switch it to that. Um but I I I love the idea of solving these problems that are just sitting there in plain sight and just aren't getting the attention. |
| Unknown | Yeah I think that it's it's funny as you describe the the frame, it's funny because it's almost not a TV first, it's a TV second. It's it's an object that displays art that can also be a TV. Um when when you're approaching something like that, do you sometimes have to kind of like put yourself in a headspace where you you can allow yourself to say, like, okay, we're we're designing a TV that is a TV, but also it's it's not a TV? I think I think for me |
| Unknown | it's about finding relevance and you know, a product that's losing its relevance even though it's an incredibly powerful technological platform like a television with such a large screen with such amazing resolution. Um it's almost sad. I mean we only use it a few hours a day. You know, I really only turn on the TV maybe, you know, once a week. Um and and you know and and it sits there without being used to you know its full potential or to some other potential that that um that we can place into it. Um and so you know finding finding how to make products products relevant and how to solve problems for people is really key. One of it is the sort of home, you know, decoration, you know, problem. The other one is the distraction problem, right? I mean children see a black um you know, a black TV on their walls and they want to turn it on. Sure. Um once you put art on it, they just don't think of it as a television anymore. You know, that that that um potential for distraction isn't isn't there as much. And I think you know we need more and more of those types of solutions, meaning to |
| Unknown | Yeah. Are are there other projects you've worked on recently where you you saw something and you just said uh I I don't know what it is yet, but like there's so much here that's not being capitalized on? Well certainly, you know, after hav |
| Unknown | ing the experience of having four babies. Um myself. Um you know the collaboration with with uh Dr. Harvey Carp and the happiest baby Snoo, which is, you know, just to s to to for nonparents, um, let me describe it for a second here a second here. Um it's a robotic crib that keeps your baby asleep longer uh with movement and sound, um, or helps you put your baby to sleep, you know, after feeding, for example, in the middle of the night. Um and how much this project has changed, you know, it's just parents by giving them just an extra hour or two of sleep. Um you know this was this was um a really interesting project. It took about five and a half years for Harvey and I to to develop it into you know a real commercial product. But it was certainly one of these intractable problems, which is, you know, how do you how do you use methodologies that exist today that that parents are using, but are often too tired in the middle of the night, you know, to apply consistently and well. Um and uh this is one of these things that just don't exist and that needed to exist. Um and you have really no idea as an entrepreneur, you know, and as a designer, whether this is something that will solve real problems and be successful or, you know, will end up um as a sort of footnote and uh in the the you know history of things that you tried and that didn't work out. Yeah. Have have you |
| Unknown | had, you know, cause y you have a lot of products that that you know you've done with with Fuse Project and and that have your name on them that are very successful and that that people recognize and that I I think at least you know for those who who care about these sorts of things people associate with you. Has there been a project that you worked on that when you when you were getting ready to push it out the door you thought this is it? Like this is going to be huge and it just never it just never took off and you just you you kind of still can't believe that it didn't it didn't work. |
| Unknown | I mean there's so many of these. You know, when you I think that's the part that people have a hard time understanding. When you combine design and entrepreneurship, um you have to do your very best to try to make a company successful. Um and sometimes they're not. And you know, you you as an entrepreneur, you know a fifty percent hit rate or thirty percent hit rate is extraordinary. That's not bad. It's really amazing. But as a designer, um you know having having you know half of your products not make it to market or make it to market and not sort of fully succeed um is is a little harder for people to understand. And I think you know when you put the designer on an equal footing with the entrepreneur or with you know the venture capitalist or anyone who sort of invests in new ideas you need to look at you know success and failure in a in a in in a in a different light. Um and um so you know there's there's there's many projects that we've that I you know didn't think you know were going to be sort of a big success that turned out to be a big success and there's plenty of projects that um you know where where I I thought this is it, this is gonna do incredibly well and and uh and it didn |
| Unknown | 't. Yeah. You know. I mean when you're it it's kind of the nature of doing client work that that your clients invest invest you with some sense of responsibility, right? Like they they trust you, they believe in you and and ultimately they give you some degree of ability to shape a product that they're they're putting their name on and they're investing in. How do you think about that responsibility? Or do you try to kind of ignore it and just just kind of focus |
| Unknown | Well I think the the responsibility as a designer, you know, as a consultant is there. But I think as the designer, as you know, entrepreneur or co-founder at times like we like we are, um that responsibility is is even more um on our shoulders in a in a sense, right? You you have employees, you have investors, um you have a public that's excited about what you're doing. And the the responsibility of making it successful, I think, is actually a sharpening tool. I mean you you you sharp sharpen your own notions and your own uh desires and and do your your very best so that um you know every one of your faculty and uh faculties and team and abilities are you know are put to you know to good work. But again, you know, having a 50% you know sort of hit rate on projects at launch um and are out there and are doing well, I'm I'm you know very proud of that record compared to you know venture capital firms which um you know, expect a lot less, right? Um but I but I do think design is the magical but also the sort of secret ingredient of um anything you put out in the world today, you know, whether it's an enterprise solution, whether it's a uh an app, um, whether it's a community that you're building, um, or whether there is a product and an experience. |
| Unknown | Do you think consumers are more savvy about design than they used to be? Or do you think maybe there's just a a sub community talking about it a lot more? A |
| Unknown | aron Ross Powell Tremendously more savvy. I mean the change I have experienced from the mid nineties when I first came to the US until today. You know, when you in the mid nineties when I would be at parties and introduce myself and tell people what I did, I you know, that I'm an industrial designer, um, I would say eighty five percent of people thought I was building factories. Um industrial design. It sounded like I'm building industrial facilities. Um and so that that awareness of the importance of design, of the job of design, um whether you're building furniture or tech products or software, um um you know, is is you know, very, very high. I mean I w I would I would put it in a you know eighty five to ninety percentile today and compared to ten percent in the you know mid nineties that's um that's a huge change |
| Unknown | . Yeah. Does that does that change how you do your work, knowing that people are much more kind of aware and and maybe looking to see kind of under under the hood a little bit more? Aaron Powell I mean my work has changed tremendously since you know |
| Unknown | since I was a young designer arriving here. But but I I wouldn't think I I don't think that whether you're designing for a very sophisticated market or for a not sophisticated market, uh a market of people who know about design who are or a market who doesn't know about design, I don't think it changes um my approach at all. You know, when we design for the developing world, we're you know, for children or for the aging, um we consider design just the same, you know, just as important. We consider the experience, the out of box experience, the you know, the the the way you know we interact, um, the way we create um you know the, look and feel, you know, pretty much in the same way. You know, it just it just has to fit that audience, but it also has to delight them. Yeah. I you know |
| Unknown | , I I think a lot of people who who know you might associate you with, you know, bu luxury products or high high end products, I would say. Um but I'm |
| Unknown | curious about about why that would be. Yeah. You're sitting in the lowest cost Herman Miller uh chair, for example. That's true. I think it's you could say Herman Miller is is sort of a um you know sort of the reference um but certainly not the most expensive. Sure. Um |
| Unknown | I don't think it's necessarily to do with price. I think it's more um the products have a I I think to some extent actually I take that back. To some extent it it does I think have to do with price, but I think it it also has to do with a s feel of things being premium. Um |
| Unknown | Yeah, I'm I I am proud of the fact that you know whether it's a five dollar pair of eyeglasses for Mexican children, for example, which is one of the projects we've done um down there, um, or a Herman Miller chair, you know, um that that at any price point there's a sense of refinement and there's a sense um you know quality um in the in the design and in the product and the way it's made that people will will say well it's high end. But to me high end can be you know can be anything doesn't need to be high price. Right. You know we've designed things for Nivea, for example, where we did the Nivea brand um in Europe and you know it's it's in supermarkets. It's um you know a dollar or two for for for their products. Um I'm I'm uh I I feel that it's absolutely critical for design and designers to be available at at all price points. S |
| Unknown | ure. Yeah, no, I I agree. Um and I I one of the things I wanted to get at here was, you know, while some of the products, you know, are are legitimately high, high price products, let's say, um, you also do things like the eyeglasses, you do one laptop. Um how do you think about kind of balancing what what Fuse Project has taken on at any given time, kind of between working with huge companies like Samsung and Herman Miller versus focusing on more maybe philanthropic things or things in the developing world |
| Unknown | . So I've always thought about it actually since in the last almost twenty years, since the formation of Fuse Project, we've had this um division of work of sorts. Um it's one third big strategic work for um you know for the likes of as you said, you know, Samsung or um or or Herman Miller. Um it's one third um entrepreneurial work. So startups like building, for example, August, um building the happiest baby snoo, um, you know, all of these startups we work with. And then one third um work that is in education or um you know, we we have some projects now going in housing um and um you know for essentially one third of work for the developing, you know, for the developing world. Um and those can be social projects. Um they can you know, th there there's really a wide gamut |
| Unknown | there. Great. Well I wanna I wanna kinda go back to you mentioned when you you came to California in the in the mid nineties. Um you're Swiss, which we'll talk about in in a bit specifically in the context of of watches. Um but do you remember when when you got here in the mid-90s, uh like what the feel was here and and how maybe that's that's changed for you as as a as a designer over the last, you know, twenty five years or so? Well when I first got |
| Unknown | here um I lived in San Francisco m because I you know I'm I I needed I and I still need, you know, sort of the the the culture of a city um and the sort of dynamic element of people and you know culture coming together in a in a city. But really the Bay Area or Silicon Valley was really what was driving um driving the economy here. So as a designer all, the design firms were based in Palo Alto or Sunnyvale, you know, in in Silicon Valley. Um and there were very few none really um tech companies in San Francisco. And that changed obviously dramatically now you know most design firms and evil venture capital firms have you know sort of moved offices to San Francisco. Um and um so it's really become sort of this hub, both cultural hub, um but also a very uh um entrepreneurial, you know, um very dynamic sort of uh business environment. Ye |
| Unknown | ah. And you worked with some of these other design firms, especially some with with big names like Frog, right? I worked at Frog, |
| Unknown | I worked at Lunar, um at the time. I did some I I designed for you know all the big uh hardware companies, you like Packard and Apple, Silicon Graphics. Um it was, you know, it was a really, really interesting time because it was a time when computers went from being enterprise tools, um, big machines and closets to um technology that we start to use in the office and then take home. So sort of working on the early stages of some of these products like um you know desktops and laptops and portable and you know things that are now in our pockets um and on our wrists um is has been um sort of the evolution of technology and the evolution of design and the evolution of how um you know technology has become a part of |
| Unknown | our everyday lives. Yeah. I I think, you know, I I come out to San Francisco a couple of times a year and and I I've always loved loved coming out here. But when you when you hear people talk about San Francisco, the only complaint I regularly hear from people is some people say it it feels like a one industry town, right? Everywhere you go, everyone works in the you know quote unquote big tech industry, and that that can sometimes feel a little claustrophobic. Do you ever feel that way? |
| Unknown | Aaron Powell I think I think that's the that's the sort of the varnish or the image that you see of San Francisco. But um you know, personally I think that San Francisco is a is a city that still has a lot of more traditional businesses around that has um you know artists and great museums and great culture and galleries. Um that's what makes me excited about being in San Francisco. Um, you know, I think the other thing is I would say, you know, the diversity of tech like, you know, companies, companies that use tech as a as a as a as a backbone um has also you know changed a lot, right? Whether you're in uh social and social media, you know, obviously San Francisco is a center for that. Um but you know you can m you you you look at you know everything from like rethinking about money with like you know with with crypto and um like all these things are happening here, which is truly extraordinary, right? You s you're sitting here, and one day you hear about this company where people are like sending these short text messages about what they're doing all day, like Twitter, and you're like, This is ridiculous. And you know, a few years later it becomes the main media channel for the White House. I mean it's it's it's you know for better or for worse in that case. For better or for worse. Um you know, in other you know, a few years later you hear about money and rethinking about you know money with blockchain and crypto and and we're still in the early stages of that and people are going, what is this? You know, why do we need it? Um and a few years from now, uh you know, I'm I'm pretty sure that will be and you know that will be the way we transact every day. Um seeing those sort of emerging ideas and then you know thinking about you know, healthcare and, you know, uh AI and you know, all the other things that are sort of bubbling up and transforming, um, I think that, you know, tech is very multifaceted today. Um that said, I agree with the premise that we shouldn't be talking about technology all the time and we shouldn't be talking about um sort of money and success and you know San Francisco has a lot of other things to, you know, to offer that make it actually a very livable and enjoyable, you know, town. Yeah. Um, so what I think what should we be talking about instead then? Well, we could talk about surfing. We could talk about um you know uh cycling around you know northern California. We could talk about all the little towns around Sara Cisco that have uh that are you know, have where you have fishermen and where you have uh great organic food being, you know, being grown. I mean, there's a whole other um sort of system, ecosystem of I would say good living and good thinking and um and um that's that's also you know very indicative of what San Francisco is |
| Unknown | . Great. Well I, want to go back to before you came to California. Uh, you know, we already mentioned it, but you're Swiss. And you grew up in Switzerland in the the 70s and 80s, right? So, you know, for for our our audience, many of them will know that the seventies and eighties were not the best time for the Swiss watch industry. Um was that something you were aware of growing up? Was was the watch industry like a part of your your growing up at all |
| Unknown | ? Uh very much so. Um my um my mother was still when I was a a a young child was actually um worked for Patek Philippe in Geneva. And um and and the sense of impeding doom was certainly um a big part of the way um Switzerland was sort of preparing itself for the Japanese takeover of uh of the watch world. Um and it there was a sense that um you know the the Swiss watch industry was gonna fall into uh you know you become irrelevant essentially essentially and that was was you know what became really interesting is when for months and months I could remember in the Swiss press um you know discussions about the final nail in the coffin and that company the, final nail in the coffin of the Swiss watch industry was going to be Swatch. This company, Swiss company that were had been created by a brilliant Swiss engineer, Nicholas Hayek, um, was gonna sell Swiss watches for fifty Swiss francs apiece. And and it was sort of the betrayal from within. See what I mean? Um and I remember this this sense and it launched and immediately everyone and every Swiss person didn't think about the impending doom of the Swiss watch industry, went out and bought some. And it became a very successful and in fact rearranged, reorganized the entire Swiss watch industry by in uh by creating the the SMH group and sure. Creating the uh um the umbrella under which all the Swiss brands um sort of came under and organized themselves by um you know price point and um and uh demographic and and clientele. |
| Unknown | That's so interesting to hear that there was a sense that Swatch was gonna be the the final nail in the coffin. Oh, there it was the b final betrayal. That's so funny. Because in in hindsight, you know, looking back, people only talk about I guess what you're you're saying happened after it launched, which is it saved the industry. You know, it really it really is the thing that with without Swatch, I I know quite a few people who who would agree who say, you know, without Swatch, the Swiss swatch industry wouldn't exist today. Uh how how long do you think it took for that kind of attitude to to turn around and people maybe to kind of get wise to what was going on? |
| Unknown | I don't remember how long, but I think within five, ten years um the Swiss watch industry stabilized. Um there seemed to be a reason again, you know, to to um to appreciate you know the craftsmanship and um uh the legacy that some of these brands had. Um so it was very interesting. But at the time for me, I mean swatch was definitely the the only exciting thing in watches. Um because you know, I was sixteen or seventeen or eighteen and um and and they were a rebel brand and that kind of fit me. Um and you know but I think at the time, you know, as a young designer, um, you know, there was a mixture of sort of admiration and respect for you know for those Swiss brands, but also a little bit of like what's next, what's new? Yeah, what's going to change? Um and so you know, Swatch was was kind of that exciting moment for me |
| Unknown | . Yeah. It's funny, I've I've talked to people before who I would have thought would have been interested in things like like vintage watches. And instead they say, I don't, you know, I I respect the past, that's that's all fine, but I don't want I don't want the thing from forty years ago. I want to know what the thing is forty years from now that I can have today. You know, it's it's about that kind of forward looking instead of backward looking. Um is is that does that fit your your way of thinking or do you think you fall somewhere somewhere in the middle or |
| Unknown | Oh absolutely. I mean I want to all I want are like prototypes of the next thing that's going to be happening. Um and I've done that over the years. You know, I tend to put my own um my own interest towards, you know, what is being tried that's new. Yeah. Um I wanna learn from those experiments. I want to sort of participate in them. Um you know, I think I think it makes me um a better designer to do so, you know, to to to put to put myself in um in that environment, whether it's, you know, the new car or the new um self driving technology or whether it's um you know the new the new technology on your wrist really, which which is is uh which which is watches. Um and so I'm I'm still wanting a little bit when it comes to you know the Swiss watch, the traditional Swiss watches is you know, w what is the experiment that they're willing to put out there and take risks on, right? And and you know, the Swiss. They're they're not, you know, the most highest risk takers, you know, they're they're risk averse It's a relatively conservative uh business culture, yeah. So so um um you know I I'm I'm looking forward to sort of supporting any any risk |
| Unknown | . Yeah. Do you when you were growing up where was you know designing watches or working in watches either when you were growing up or going to school in Lausanne, w was that something on your radar or did you think of that as something kind of going on around you but not something you'd you'd participate in. |
| Unknown | It was definitely on my radar. I had a really interesting design competition when I was um when I was in school. I designed some Omega watches, um uh a new version of the constellation and um which uh which actually came out which was a a complete um unexpected thing but I was you know I was maybe eighteen or nineteen when when that happened. Um I also went on visits, you know, with uh with the Art Center College of Design, which is where I studied. Right. Uh we went to see Oudmar Piquet for for example. So you know visiting Oudmar, you know, in you know in La Chautefon was phenomenal. Um you know um it was a typical Swiss winter, you know, snow covered valley uh there and you know there were these very patient Swiss folks putting putting watches together um you know, such as the the Grande Constellation, for example. Um and them saying, you know, it takes six months to put the watch together or something like that. I don't remember if it was three months or six months. And so you know it really felt uh like time had stopped. Right. Um and it's still very much like that. Yeah. You know, and there's something I enjoy about that. I mean I enjoy the high level of craftsmanship um and s and technical technical skills that it takes to do that. Um you know it's um it's it's fun to to appreciate something that uh that is fundamentally at a different scale, time scale, as a lot of the other things that you know we work on and we we live around here in uh Sarasisco and Silic |
| Unknown | on Valley. Right. Yeah, and so you you design this watch for Omega, it gets made, much to your surprise, and then years later you end up working with Movado. Um can you tell us a little bit about how that project came about? Did they approach you? Did you approach them |
| Unknown | ? So we I have actually designed a few watches throughout the years. I designed a bracelet watch for many in the early 2000s, uh right at the launch of the mini while uh uh mini car. Um I designed a watch with Isemiyake. Oh yeah. Which was uh super interesting to work more with sort of a Japanese spirit of fashion and um innovation um that you find with uh with um Isei and his brand. Um and then I was speaking at a um at a conference in Aspen at the uh Aspen Ideas um uh festival. Um I gave um I gave a talk there and um Ephraim, the CEO of um of Movado was in the in the room and he came up, you know, to talk to me and he was very humble and he said, you know, well, you know, we designed these watches, they're not so innovative and not so technologically advanced like the rest of your work, you know. But would you would you have a conversation about working with us? And I was just like, absolutely. Um, you know, to me the movato was you know, the the the museum watch was one of the very, very few uh example of modernism, sort of uh mid century modernism applied to a watch, which is not something you see in the you know sort of traditional Swiss watchmakers sort of catalogue of watches. You don't see a minimalist, kind of modernist um uh very restrained, very iconic approach to um you know to to a watch. So I was like, And why why do you think |
| Unknown | that is? It's always been something that's that's kind of confused me, and I haven't been able to come up with a good answer. So I'm hoping maybe you maybe you have something, but you know, Switzerland was such a leader in in modernism in in other fields in in you know, in type, in industrial design. Um but the watches kind of didn't go that |
| Unknown | direction for whatever reason. Well there were a |
| Unknown | few like really interesting experiments, |
| Unknown | like Max Bill did a number of interesting um you know, the Swiss artist uh interesting sort of very minimal designs. Roger Talon in France, the designer of the TGV train, did some very interesting, more swatch like actually. Yeah. French watch designs. Um they they tended to be more novelty and more sort of one offs. Um and s for some reason it never permeated um the really you know the the um the traditional you know swiss watchmakers um and and it is surprising because you know the bauhaus and um swiss modernism both in sort of graphic design and in uh furniture design um is is is well well known and well noted and it's interested that it didn't permeate um so much the um the traditional watch indust |
| Unknown | Yeah. So you you hook up with m Movado and you start working on the Movado Edge. Can you tell us about what this what this watch was and kind of how the how the idea came together |
| Unknown | ? So the Movado Edge was um really uh for me a way to think about materiality in a in a new way. And what I found is that watches tended to be designed very much from the 2D uh level, which is you know very two-dimensional, very graphical. Um, you know, that you you you can almost see what software um is being used in when people design watches. And it's more like illustrator. It's more um a lot of like high detail that are applied to the face of the watch. Um you know, with with with very uh s sort of precise methods of engraving and printing and and whatnot. Um and they it tends to be done very much sort of straight on, you know, sort of a a plan view of the watch. Um and I think that shows. And I I I kept thinking about what, you know, how could we give um a more of a three-dimensional um feel for the watch uh sort of drawing people's eyes and emotions, you know, into the watch in a way that is has to do with with the three-dimensionality of of of the watch itself and the face. And so the the approach was or um to to stay within that very sort of minimal, you know, sort of movado um design ethos, um but but create a a deeper cavity around a thinner edge on the outside and a deeper cavity um um where you know uh on the face of the watch um and then detail that with sort of a a a beautiful single material approach. So rather than going and having a sort of a flat bottom to the watch and then a number, a lot of little details and little additional materials that are applied there, just have a single material machined um and that creates the entire uh face. So um that's where the sixty little sculpted ridges ridges inside the watch uh were made. Um the interior was was sort of machine out of a single uh unit and then the dot, the the sort of sun at noon uh movato symbol is polished, but all out of a single material. Um and to me that seemed to be um a different approach. You know, one one that um was much more about industrial design, about uh working with the material and the technique. When you approach |
| Unknown | a a product like this, right, which is is starting as it's as it's sort of jumping off point with the the museum watch, right? Which is as you said, is is a real icon of of sort of like mid century design at at this point. How do you approach that in terms of, you know, obviously wanting to do something different and something unique and something additive, but also without sort of m muddying or disrespecting the the thing you're using as as the jumping off point |
| Unknown | ? So for me, I mean that's a that's a great question, and this was a big um um sort of a a big part of the challenge early in the project um is how to take you know more of um of a philosophical notion and how to move that one step forward. And the entire watch or the entire face of the watch being manufactured out of a single material seemed like to be but a a modern technique, one that, you know, was was probably difficult or I would say impossible to do, you know, back in the you know, back in the fifties or sixties, uh, seemed to be like one step forward. You know, if those tools were available to those designers then, um, you know, they may have used them, but they weren't. And so um the idea was to think about the elements um such as the dot and the sort of the the the the the face um and make them all you know even simpler that they were that they had been made before |
| Unknown | And so the the basic sort of you know time-only version of this watch is is just that. It's so simple. But then there are chronograph variations and and other things. How did you take this this basic idea and then kind of alter it and and scale it to make sense for other other ideas? |
| Unknown | What makes watches I I think uh really fascinating as um as a as a product category is the amount of variations that people get. This is not something we find in technology. You know, we all have the same phone. I mean, maybe there is a color variation here and there. But really it's hard to differentiate between brands within the same brand and between brands what's on the table when people put their phones on their table on the table, right? With watches, um, the willingness of the watch industry to create unique models for different people and different needs, um is is truly something that's that's um uh that you can't find in other industries. Um and so for me to understand you know the the the sort of chronograph customer or the smaller uh uh band uh customer that you know maybe um watch band customer that that a woman you know would be looking for um you know, the different styles, the sort of all black watch versus um the one with lots of details. And and trying to think creatively around, you know, the the that large number of variations um was was really super interesting. So we did we did some things that were I would say making the watch fit within the categories that's you know whether it's a chronograph, uh whether it's a smaller women's watch. Um but we also did things that were quite different. We we uh used for example aluminum for some of the faces and we um were able to sort of match really unique anodized aluminum colors, um you know, greens and purples and pinks, um in ways that you know I had never seen before. But what was really i incredible with working with Movado is their willingness to stretch, you know, beyond um you know, beyond m what had been done before maybe what what um what people thought their customers wanted. Um and I that's w that was really refreshing, right? Because I really found them to be uh democratic. You know, the price point is um is accessible um and also willing to to explore and try new things. Um and so it it made it a very sort of fun, fluid collaboration. I'll use one example. Um when we were designing, the watch was so clean and it had so little kind of visual distraction in the face that for the whole design process I didn't put the Movado name inside the watch and I didn't put Swiss for you know Swiss um you know for Swiss made uh inside the inside the watch to.ward Ands the end of the process, I assumed um you know we would get the requests, you know, to add no those branding elements. And Ephraim was here in in the at Fuse Project one day and I was talking to him and I was just like, you know, hypothetically, it would be great to, you know, to just, you know, to I mean the watch is so recognizable, it's so clearly a Movado, even though it's completely new. You know, why you know we don't need the Movado name, we don't need the Swiss maid in the front. People already know that, just seeing it. And it was like, absolutely. Well, let's put it on the back. And you know, that that kind of sort of fluid um partner like um willingness to go all the way into um into a concept really makes for a great client. |
| Unknown | That's another uh that brings up another another thing that I wanted to ask you about, which is you know, watches have a very um I would say distinct and sort of unique way of being branded. It's a very idiosyncratic thing with the brand name always being labeled Swiss or Swiss made, often having the names of the functions directly written on the dial of of the watch. Um and it's not something you see elsewhere like the you know, the sale chairs that we're sitting on, don't say chair on the back of them, right? Right. Um do you is that something you that that bothers you that you think is interesting? Is it something you you do see in in analogs elsewhere well |
| Unknown | I I always have a little bit of a problem with product categories and markets that are driven by convention. That's just the way we've done things, so that's just do it again like that. And I think today we live in a in a in a world where, you know, people are actually excited about change. They are excited about um they notice, you know, the the those differences. Um and you know I find that you know the brands that are willing to take those risks that differentiate themselves um by trying something new or by um you know by getting rid of some of the conventions, um you know, are are probably the ones who are, you know, doing doing better. Um I I do think there is a spirit in the twenty first century which is um of of of just looking at everything anew. Um I mean in many ways Hudinki is uh certainly uh uh um doing that and you know for for you know in the watch space. Thank you. Um and uh there's a hunger for that. You know, uh I I I don't know that every company always understands that, but that's you know, in a way that's my job to sort of bring up um the hunger for better, more relevant, um, you know, in intriguing and surprising new solutions |
| Unknown | . Yeah. Well I was gonna I was going to ask you what you you thought the Swiss watch industry can maybe learn from from what's going on out here, but that that seems like a pretty good pretty good answer to that questi |
| Unknown | on. You know, to me technology I, mean a watch is a technology, whether it's a um uh traditional watch or whether it's um you know it's it's it's a watch made by Apple or Samsung. I mean it is it is it is new technology no matter what. So what you know, the challenge for for anyone in a space that that has such divergent uh approaches now, right, from a hundred percent technological to zero percent technological, um is is how to integrate the right relevant um technology into into the product. And I believe, personally I believe that very traditional watches uh we'd benefit for one or two or three interesting new technological features. I also believe that the current um sort of wrist computers, you know, the current tech watches that we have, would benefit from, you know, a few sort of traditional mechanical features also. And so, you know, there is um there's a little bit of a black and white world that we live in right now. Yeah. Um of course there's some crossover uh people trying a little bit uh of a mixed, you know, a mixed approach. But my prediction is that in the next ten years or so we we'll see a lot of original approaches. And ones where you say, well, you know, this makes sense for Rolex or PatTec or you, know that, that completely makes sense because they're about this approach to, you know, life and lifestyle and function. Um and you know, I don't think we need a universal um sort of uh information engine on our wrists uh like like we do for our phones. I do I do believe that the functions can be more um more unique and differentiated. |
| Unknown | Great. Well, we're gonna we're gonna wrap in a few minutes, but before we do that, I wanted to ask you what's I know some some of this you you can't talk about obviously, but from what you can talk about, what's what's coming next for you? What should we be looking out for from uh from you and from Fuse Project? Well I'm very excited about uh number of proje |
| Unknown | cts we're doing at at a at a bigger scale. Okay. Um so we're working on um entire buildings. Some of them we we've presented recently, prefab buildings. Yeah. They're small-scale, high quality, uh ADUs accessory dwelling units, uh, which is a new category of buildings. Um essentially anyone in California can now add um a new a new small building to their backyard. Um you know we're working on other uh projects of that scale. Um one of them is in the developing world. One of them is gonna be underwater. Very cool. So so I'm I'm excited about um about um sort of the built scale um um which uh which we're working on. I'm also excited about smaller on the body objects and um um you know I, I think we'll have some some new things to share in that space soon. Good, good. Jud |
| Unknown | ging judging from the smile on your face, I think it's gonna be exciting stuff. Um Okay, so to to wrap, we always finish up with the the hodinky questionnaire. So it's a couple of short quick fire questions. Um you can keep your answers as as short as you'd like or expound on them, whichever you'd prefer. But uh yeah, the first question is what's what's a watch that's caught your eye recently |
| Unknown | ? Oh recently I think the um you know the Resence uh watches were um were really intriguing and new and innovative and um I think Tony and the Resens team, uh Tony Fidel and the Residence team did a did a really um cool job there. Um I think, you know, from Europe that would be that would that would be it. Okay. That's fair. What's the best place you've traveled in the last year? The best place I've traveled in last year is Sumbawa, a place that I had never been before, which is um island in the in uh in Indonesia. Great |
| Unknown | . What's uh what's the best piece of advice you've ever been given and who gave it to you? I get advice everyy da |
| Unknown | . And I take it all. Um there are a lot of like really great pieces of advice. Um I I I sort of follow some of the great leading architects and designers of our time. And um, you know, I think the best advice from Charles and Ray Eames uh is to take your pleasure seriously. |
| Unknown | I like that. I like that a lot. Um and then the last thing before we get to our cultural recommendation is uh do you have any guilty pleasures? |
| Unknown | Yes, I do. Um absolutely. Um my guilty pleasures is um lots of lots of uh surfboards and snowboards um and sort of um technical objects for you know for for some of the activities I like to do. Um I also, you know, uh a guilty pleasure, you know, now in in uh uh in my life is just sometimes when I can is to keep things simple and to um to sort of stay close to the people around me. Um even though I'm still I'm still learning how to you know how to how to access that because I I tend to be very much on the go. So when you figure it out, tell me |
| Unknown | , please. I promise. You can uh do another episode and share your uh your wisdom with us. Um all right, so the last thing is uh we always finish things up with a cultural recommendation. So what's something that you recommend the listeners go check out when they're done uh done listening to this? Aaron Powell There's a |
| Unknown | new show at SFMOMA called uh Sea Ranch. And um it's about building an entire community. It's about two and a half hours north of San Francisco. Um it was it was uh built it's a mid-century sort of community built around enjoying the ocean, but also being a community. And there's a lot of lessons there about um Um sort of uh uh paring down and integrating with a land um uh while doing really original unique unique architecture and graphic design as well. Um you know the in particular the graphic design was very um by Barbara Starfaker Starfaker uh was very um was was Swiss in origin um because she studied in Switzerland. So the this idea that you can create something um you know in nature, uh by the ocean, uh with a community of people in a way that is still sort of simple and beautiful and well-designed and not ostentatious is um is I think a good lesson for today. Amazing. I'm gonna have to go check that |
| Unknown | out tomorrow. Yes, do. Yeah. Awesome. Well thank you so much for joining us. This was a ton of fun and uh thank you for making the time and and welcoming us here Great talking to you. Thank you. This week's episode was recorded at Fuse Project in San Francisco and was produced and edited by Grayson Korhonen. Please remember to subscribe and rate the show, it really does make a difference. Thank you for listening and we'll see you next week. |