The Business of Watches [46] What New York Watch Week's Unbridled Enthusiasm Says About The Market With Griffin Bartsch And TanTan Wang¶
Published on Wed, 28 Oct 2026 15:00:00 +0000
The U.S. market continues to drive global demand for premium and luxury watches - we take stock amid the lines and finds at New York Watch Week.
Synopsis¶
Host Andy Hoffman is joined by Hodinkee colleagues Tan Tan Wang and Griffin Barch to discuss their experiences at New York Watch Week, which encompasses Wind-Up, Watch Time New York, and Indies NYC. This marks Hoffman's first North American watch show, and the trio explores how the U.S. market has become the primary focus for watch brands, particularly independents, with American consumers showing an exceptional appetite for risk-taking and individuality in their watch purchases.
The conversation covers the distinct character of each event: Watch Time featuring higher-end brands like MB&F, Daniel Roth, and Gerald Genta in an impressive Gotham Hall setting; Indies NYC showcasing independent watchmakers in a more intimate atmosphere; and Wind-Up creating a bazaar-like environment where brand founders interact directly with enthusiastic collectors. All three hosts ended up purchasing watches during the week, highlighting the power of personal connections between makers and buyers. They discuss challenges facing the events, particularly Wind-Up's overwhelming popularity leading to multi-hour wait times, while debating whether this enthusiasm represents a sustainable shift in the American watch market or a temporary phenomenon. The consensus suggests this direct-to-consumer, personality-driven approach to watch sales is here to stay, especially as brands recognize the U.S. market's unique willingness to embrace newer, riskier independent brands alongside established names.
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Transcript¶
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| Andy Hoffman | This episode of the business of watches is brought to you by Watches of Switzerland, the premier retailer of the world's most prestigious timepiece brands. Stay tuned later in the episode for a special offer for listeners of the show. Welcome to the Business of Watches, the Hodinkee podcast, where we go behind the scenes and talk to the leaders, business executives, and industry experts who are making things tick. I'm your host, Andy Hoffman. Today we are joined by two of my colleagues at Hodinkee, Tan Tan Wang, and Griffin Barch. We all have just wrapped up a week in New York at the New York Watch Week that consists of wind-up and watch time New York as well as Indies New York. And it was actually my first time visiting a watch show of any kind in North America, and I quite enjoyed it. But uh Griffin and Tantan, welcome to the business of watches. It's always good to be here. |
| Griffin Barch | Yeah. Thanks for having us and letting us completely invade your virtual podcast space. |
| Andy Hoffman | Well, it is my pleasure. And uh unfortunately, yeah, we're not together as we were last week. And thank you again, Tantan, for choosing that excellent um Korean restaurant that we had lunch at. That was fantastic. What was it called again? |
| Tan Tan Wang | It was uh and and I'm not being paid to say this. It was um it was Narrow at uh right underneath Rockefeller Center, kind of a hidden gem, great food and uh excellent desserts. |
| Andy Hoffman | Yeah, well chosen. I really quite enjoyed that. That was great. And then I got to see uh Rockefeller Center and 30 Rock up close. So let's get into it. I mean, I would say the overarching feeling and theme for me was the enthusiasm that I witnessed from the attendees at these shows at Watch Time and at Wind Up. And then also, you know, it seemed like there it was certainly, confirmation for many of the brands who are there at either show confirming that they are all in on the US market and the American market, and that you know that, shift away from catering to China and that market there has been completed and the US, which is the biggest watch market export market for Swiss watches, uh is complete. Um Tantan would uh w what's your um perspective on that? I mean you've attended watch shows all over the world. As I say, this was my first in New York. Um am I right here that the industry is is has made that shift, or at least the brands that we saw at the shows in New York? |
| Tan Tan Wang | Yeah, I would totally agree. I mean, I think brands have not been shy in saying that for the past few years at least, where they see I think the difference in the American market is they immediately see an appetite from consumers on taking risks. You know, and so I think a lot of the brands that you see, for example, at Watchtime, which is the sort of higher end tier of brands in terms of the shows in that weekend. You know, I think these brands are very excited because oftentimes I think the American consumer just gets maybe a lot of these more risky products that m they would have to alternatively sort of make a a more you know traditional sales pitch to in in other regions. Whereas here I think people are just ready to embrace sort of individuality in that way. Um and of course, there's lots of talk about wind up, right? in that sort of smaller and and you know, lower priced tier. But overall, there's an appetite, right? And people are excited. And, you know, we see a lot of the same people and a lot of familiar faces all around the world, right, going to these watch shows and even though you might be like, oh man, like, you know, you've been to so many, like how how are you not sort of sick of this? But you see these people so excited every single time. And that sort of resiliency and overall sort of like unwanning interest, I think, is just why this place feels special from the brand perspective and and I think to uh to customers. |
| Andy Hoffman | Griffin, what do you think? Am I right that um at least the brands that we saw, I mean, um are making a full court press in terms of attracting that uh American watch buyer and and trying to expand their markets there? |
| Griffin Barch | Absolutely. I think especially, you know, Tantang kind of looked at the at the high end of the market from the watchtime perspective more. For me, I think a lot of these the small brands that populate wind up, wherever they're from around the world, their market is in the United States. These kind of small to Tantan's point about collectors who are willing to kind of take a risk with a brand, I don't know that that culture of discovery in watchmaking exists in the especially at the low end in the same way in other places. I think you see a little bit of it in the UK, you see a little bit of it throughout Europe, but even I talk to brands that are London-based, you that you'd think would have an appetite in London. And they're like, We sell ninety percent of our watches in the United States, and this is our biggest sales weekend and our most important weekend of the year. |
| Andy Hoffman | Yeah, no no dou doubtbt.. And it was quite interesting to me that both the shows, I mean, even Watchtime really were putting the clients and the consumers first, right? I mean, these are not business-to-business shows. These are watch fairs and watch events for watch clients and and watch consumers. Indeed we saw lots of transactions going on, particularly at Windup, but um I think plenty of sales were were done at watch time as well. It was also interesting. I think the three of us were together at the MBNF, the Max Booser and Friends Lounge in New York. That was my first time seeing that space. And it was certainly evident that plenty of investment had gone into that space. It was a gorgeous, lovely, uh, beautiful showroom and lounge there. And they were launching I guess it was the LM01 Evo, uh, which was quite a nice piece. You know, it was it was uh that kind of investment, that kind of space made it very clear that the brand was um certainly committing to that market and giving its clients and customers a place to congregate and and see the pieces. Tantin, you're a you're a big MBNF fan. Um am I right to to interpret that new space as such? |
| Tan Tan Wang | Yeah, I mean MBNF has been sort of in an interesting period in the past few years. And Andy, I'm sure you kind of agree here where, you know, I obviously the brand feels like it's growing more than ever, but what growing means to them is very different from what we might expect traditionally from a lot of other brands. And so I think what this represents is sort of the brand taking a step back in the American market, um, at least on the East Coast, and being like, okay, what is the way that kind of best serves collectors here, right? And I had said this when I first walked in, but as sort of dramatic as the sort of build-out is, and for those who don't know, this is in the Fuller Building, which is a historical art deco building, you kind of expect these old, you know, floors and old pillars. And when you step into this lounge, it I mean, you know, as Griffin you know based described before, it's basically built like a shell, right? And so you don't really feel any trace of that within the actual space, which is mighty impressive. But this space feels like it's designed around collectors and is not designed around sales, which is uh, you know, which is something only a brand that doesn't really have to worry about sales uh can, you know, can do. But it's a space that really feels like it should have been there, you know, 10 years ago, and yet, you know, better late than never. Um I think MBNF is also changing a lot of its retailer relationships, right? You know, the MBNF as a result of opening this lounge and working closely with sort of East Coast customers, if you will, have um have also pulled out of a few retailers that had carried them in the past. And so I think this is their way of shifting the conversation directly with the brand, which is frankly what the consumer wants. You know, it's MBNF, which is Max Booster and Friends, right? People want to be able to hang out and talk with Max Booster like he was here uh earlier this week. And so um yeah, long story short, it's a I think it's a great space. I think it's it's a space that makes a ton of sense for the brand. Um, and what they've been able to do with it for the past few months since it's been open um has been incredible. They've just you know, I know some of the guys there, like Richard, who who kind of leads leads a space and they work insane hours. They've been they've been sort of um, you know, having people and hosting people nonstop. And so uh it's very cool to see. |
| Andy Hoffman | For sure. And Griffin, would you uh you know, have have we seen this from many other brands in terms of you know their presence and uh in the U.S. market and sort of doubling down on that to meet the customer where they are? Aaron Powell |
| Griffin Barch | Absolutely we have. And it's not just opening up retail spaces, although it is certainly that. I mean, I was at an event last night at the at Casa Panaray in the in midtown, which, you know, is in is within two blocks of a handful of boutiques of brands who didn't have a US presence five years ago. So there is that shift, but it's also indicative of a broader shift towards these more Oasis-like customer experiences. When you go into the MB and F lounge, which is, as Tandan said, in the Fuller building, and you know, shares a street address with the nineteen sixteen company lounge also in the same building that we went to on the same day. These do not feel like traditional retail spaces. They feel like, for lack of a better descriptor, living rooms for these brands. And we've also started to see that from other brands around like AP House in the meatpacking district. |
| Andy Hoffman | We're soon gonna have that Brightling uh uh club in uh Williamsburg. |
| Griffin Barch | Yeah. That's right. Exactly. The boutique model serves brands that you can walk into and buy a watch really effectively. Brands where that's less true, I'm not I think there's been a recognition that there is still a need to service clientele in the United States without it being as sales focused because they just don't have the watches to sell. |
| Andy Hoffman | Yeah. But if you can create these experiences |
| Griffin Barch | where people are are finding touch points with the brands that aren't going in and buying a watch, it's an incredibly effective I don't want to say the brands are being callous and calculating, but it is an incredibly effective marketing tool to just have people come and be in your space and be in your world. |
| Andy Hoffman | Exactly. I mean I think certainly on the independent side and we're starting to see some of the the bigger brands or traditional brands try and replicate it as well. It's that face-to-face, know the watchmaker, know the people behind the brand kind of experience that uh clients and collectors are are demanding. And so we're seeing more in-person experiences and events. And indeed, that means that an increased presence in the biggest market for Swiss watch exports, which is the United States. Let's move it to um product a bit and maybe focus first on Watchtime, which as you say is the traditional sort of higher-end event there held in Gotham Hall, a pretty impressive big circular space. I mean, we saw everyone from M B and F to Arminstrom to Piaget, uh Blanc Pan was there. What did you make of the you know, Armand Strom also uh from here in Switzerland was there? Chop |
| Griffin Barch | If we're talking purely about product that had an impact on me, it's it is the work being done by the revived brands from LVMH, Gerald Genta, and Daniel Roth. Those watches are unbelievably good, independent of their history, and simultaneously, LVMH has done a very good job of bringing the brands back without it being in conflict with the brands as they existed before their revival. And I don't know that I've known anyone who's seen in particular the Daniel Roth stuff who hasn't walked away impressed. |
| Tan Tan Wang | Yeah, I would a hundred percent agree. I mean, that is they're just they're just nailing it, you know? It's so funny because I think er we, you know, the we, the watch community, gives a lot of criticism towards a lot of these sort of attempt historical revivals, in which I think, you know, the main criticism comes when you lose a lot of the spirit of what made the originals um so great. But I think Daniel Roth is a perfect example where they are building what is objectively a better product and yet it still has the charm of the originals. And that's kind of the dream formula, right? So I mean, like we were both, I mean we, all went to a breakfast uh that week with Gerald Genta and Daniel Roth to see some of the product. Nothing new in particular, but some of the stuff, Andy, you and I saw at Geneva Watch Days, for example. And it just it doesn't get old, you know, obviously there's a lot of there's a lot of product out there that, you know, we go see again and again and we're like, all right, cool. I'll try on a Daniel Roth turbine any day of the week and and be very happy. But um, you know, I think, you know, this year's watch time, as as with previous years, brand mix always changes, right? So you have a lot of brands sort of coming out of the picture in terms of displaying and then a lot of new ones. Roth, I believe this is their first year also exhibiting there. But you know, I think a lot of a lot of uh people stopped by the G Shock booth more so than in previous years, I think. So G Shock kind of tries to display a both wind up and watch time um to sort of convey the idea that they have kind of two very different um product segments, you know, a very, very ultra-high-end, you know, we're talking $1,000 G Shocks and and more. And of course, in that display this year is the sort of headlining blue sapphire G Shock that costs eighty thousand dollars, right? And so when you're amongst that price point, people don't expect to see a G Shock there. And so we had I saw, you know, when I was kind of loitering about, a lot more people this year, I think, stopped by. Um, which I think was kind of interesting, right? It is a ridiculous product, and I think it shows quite a bit of courage to have that amongst, you know, eighty thousand dollar watches that are, you know, incredibly hand finished by, you know, one single watchmaker there. So that was quite a uh interesting sight to see. Aaron Powell |
| Andy Hoffman | Yeah. No, I think I think Cassio made a real impression um with that piece and with that G Shock and you know everyone was lining up to see it and um you know they were making the point that they have the right and the um the need to um stand beside the highest end brands there and you know they're part of the community so yeah that i thought that was quite interesting this episode of the Business of Watches is brought to you by Watches of Switzerland, home to a carefully curated collection from the world's most prestigious watchmakers. And whether you're chasing a grail or buying your first serious watch, Watches of Switzerland is a great place to make it happen. And for listeners of the business of watches, there's an exclusive offer: take $200 off your first order of $1,000 or more on full price items at watchesofswitzerland.com. Just use the code HDKPOD-HOLIDAY dash two hundred at checkout. That's H D K P O D Holiday with a capital H dash two zero zero. The code is case sensitive and the easiest way to get it right is the link in our show notes. The offer is valid in the US only, online only, through January 4th, 2027 while supplies last and is subjecto availability exclusion supply so se the full terms at watches of switzerland dot com for you tin anything else that stood out product wise? I mean, you know, at watch time we also saw, I guess just, you know, basically a new colorway of the Fredric Constant um classic perpetual Cendalar, this one in Burgundy. We saw a new version of the Oris Big Crown Pro Pilot, which is a classic in their lineup, but given a little uh update. Yeah, I mean, you know, what what either of you, I mean, what do you think we're we're seeing in terms of product choices and design and and how they're trying to um potentially cater to that American market uh which is you know which um seems to be where all the focus is. Aaron Powell |
| Tan Tan Wang | Yeah I mean I think I think keeping things fun and lighthearted as you know however much you can say that about things that cost, you know, um how they cost at that fair, I think that is the key, right? Because I think you you look at the energy, you look at the the people there and they just want to have these very sort of like fun conversations for lack of a better word. And so I think it's that excitement of, you know, we've all we've all seen an Urwork at this point, but our work this year, you know, right before Watchtime came out with a brand new watch called the UR300 Time quantum, I think is the name, that you know, takes what is otherwise a pretty iconic, you know, interpretation of satellite wandering hours for them, and yet they've somehow created this even wackier sort of like jumping system, you know, for the change of each hour. And so I think these are the kind of iterations that I think speak most to the consumers here, where it's a little bit of, you know, pizzazz, right? It's a little bit of flash and dazzle. I think actually Ressance came out with a really cool watch right in time for watch time, which is the new Type 10. It's actually surprisingly I I covered this watch on Hodinkee and at first I thought it was all right, a mashup of, you know, a lot of different little elements from previous Resence designs. But when I when I got to see it in person, it is kind of the next generation of that original design, right? It the new case, which is a little more to know, a little more integrated and actually quite compact on the wrist, paired with um an oil filled dial, and finally sort of a um proprietary movement. This is all the stuff that I think a lot of those collectors have been wanting for years. And I think again, you check off these boxes and collectors want to come, right? Um and so I think this is a great example where from the outside, oh, maybe this doesn't look too uh all that different, but I think it's actually a really, really cool evolution and quite well done for them. So I don't think either of you have seen it in person, but it wears incredibly well on the wrist. |
| Andy Hoffman | Yeah, it seems to have all the classic resence uh elements Aaron Powell |
| Griffin Barch | I mean going off that tanton I think what what has been an interesting trend for me to observe over the last few years in general is I feel like there has been a shift where more and more watches come out from brands, and it feels like you know, a charitable way of saying it would be brands are increasingly giving collectors what they're asking for and what they want. A more cynical perspective would be that brands have less confidence in their own vision and are falling back on stuff that they know can sell. But I do think a lot of what what that want is that brands are listening to is coming from the taste in the United States. I think it works better for some brands than for others. I think this resence is incredible. There are some other brands that I see releases from, and I'm like, okay, I see how that can sell for you at a boutique in Chicago, but I feel like it's losing a little bit of what made whatever the brand was special. So it it's it gives and it takes. |
| Tan Tan Wang | dare you throw hands. Sure. I mean I'll |
| Griffin Barch | say, you know, and uh I'm very on the record as absolutely adoring Tudor as a brand. But I I wrote about when the Pelagos FXD GMT came out, that is a watch that felt like it was checking boxes for what people were saying they wanted on Instagram and was all the worse for it. |
| Tan Tan Wang | Mm-hmm. That was a watch that to me had |
| Griffin Barch | very little soul. Uh it it didn't exhibit tutor perspective. I sort of want all these brands to tell us what we want more than give us what we want. |
| Tan Tan Wang | Yeah. You know, and I think that is a hard challenge, right? And, you know, I think a lot of a lot of these high-end brands, and you know, we gotta definitely talk about a lot of the cool brands at Windup at some point, but a lot of the high-end brands try to, you know, offer right piece uniques or try to offer sort of like bespoke commissions. And I think one thing that I've always I've always noted as some guy that certainly um dreams of of one of these is, you know, it is a fine line between, you know, when I I I personally think like if you're buying one of these watches, you want the vision from either the artist or the watchmaker or the or the brand's history, you know, to come into play to appreciate that. And yet I think if we talk about the flip side of the sort of U.S. confidence, you see a lot of people sort of wanting to just impart their own complete taste over a watch when when I'm seeing some of these bespoke commissions. And I think you know, I I personally like to see a balance and you know, sometimes I wish brands would maybe be a little more strong footed on on, you know, establishing sort of a rule book or or design language um for these people to work from. And, you know, I guess this is a bit of a random rant right to come in the middle of this uh this segment. But you know, I think seeing, you know, I saw a lot of cool piece uniques out there at at Watch Time, you know, during the cocktail party when everyone's bringing their best. Some of them are incredible. Some of them are incredibly tasteful, but good design always needs a level of restraint. And so I think yeah, you know, that is something that I will admit that I think the American market and its exuberance uh, if you will, tends to, I think, needs to manage a little bit. Um and you know, there's nothing wrong with with buying what you love, but I also do think that as a result, brands end up diluting their message. Right. And that I think that's where my where that sort of stems from Griffin's original point is that, you know, brands have to also be careful to kind of tell us what you actually care about. |
| Andy Hoffman | Well, I think on that subject or theme, I got to see the Blanc Pan Ladybird on the wrist for the first time. And I was truly impressed with that piece. And you know, talk about restraint and talk about sort of taking inspiration or or design cues from the brand's history. I thought it was a really sort of well executed piece with I believe what is the smallest in-house um uh made and design movement around these days. Um yeah, I thought that was a uh a great example of a of a piece that's um I think hitting those goals and and that and that objective and also aimed at the um at the at the women's market, which uh you know, was I think well represented um I mean better represented certainly at watch time than at wind up, but yeah, I thought that was um you know one of the pleasant surprises in terms of the pieces I saw. Aaron Powell |
| Tan Tan Wang | I do appreciate Watchtime's sort of brand mix because um and we'll we'll certainly have to talk about Indies NYC, which But Watchtime has always done quite well in bringing together a mix of brands that typically wouldn't be in the same place together, right? And I think that's what I like. You have sort of a a few sort of anchors, sort of establishment brands. Chopar is always great to see there. Like the table at Watchtime a few years ago is what got me to buy my first Chopar. Right. And so I think that is a great example of something that works. Um and then you have it mixed with so many of the cool independents like Vootalun and is always a pleasure to to sort of go see. It |
| Andy Hoffman | was amazing. Yeah. Kari was just there talking to talking to whoever was coming up to the booth one of the days I was there and and then you know Ming was just down the uh although Ming himself wasn't there, Ming was just down the um down the aisle and and yeah, it was a lot of face-to-face um interactions for sure. |
| Tan Tan Wang | Absolutely. So, you know, I think that's really cool to see. Wind up, I think certainly feels more cohesive in terms of um the brands that you see there, except there are obviously always exceptions. But yeah, watch time. I just enjoyed that sort of mix where you can sort of wander in and out of the different sort of you know scopes of watchmaking at that price point. |
| Andy Hoffman | Yeah. I mean any other takeaways from you, uh Griffin, in terms of watch time? Aaron Powell |
| Griffin Barch | Well I think one thing that is absolutely fascinating, this and ties into Windup as well, is the way some brands have shifted between watch time and wind up over the last few years. Um, you know, there are some brands like uh Oris and the Citizen Group that that show it both, but I think its it tell you something when a brand makes the decision to go from one to the other. For example, uh Bremont in its previous existence used to show at Watch Time, now shows it w at windup. Fears did not show at Windup this year despite having been a long-standing windup brand and showed at Watchtime instead. And I think that can give you a sense of maybe not how a brand sees itself, but maybe how a brand sees its audience evolving. And so I think that that these two shows happen simultaneously gives us an ability to maybe learn something about brands that they wouldn't necessarily want to tell us explicitly. |
| Andy Hoffman | Yeah, indeed. And I think, you know, um the Fears example, they did indeed make that decision to move from wind up to watch time. And um I think you you know, if you listen to the podcast that we did recently with uh Nicholas Bowman uh Scardill, the CEO and founder there, you'll hear about the evolution and sort of where that brand sees itself and they, you know, they really want to portray and be seen as an establishment brand. They've been around for a decade now. And uh yeah, I think they're although, you know, the price point that they're in, they certainly could still be at wind up I mean, you know, they made a twenty seven thousand pound uh perpetual calendar this year, lovely watch. And um yeah, they can they want to show that uh that they belong. But indeed, let's talk about before we talk about wind up, let's talk about Indies uh NYCB. Um Tantan you were there, I didn't uh make it this year. But yeah, what um what was the mood and and and feeling there and what kind of stuff did you see? |
| Tan Tan Wang | Yeah, I y you know, the way I was describing this to someone, I think, I was like, I felt like I was kind of having my proud dad moment, because I've known John who who founded Indy's NYC for quite a few years now. And I've been to every single iteration of of this show. And the scale this year in which this show happened was just completely different from years past. And I think it's a great example of taking a what was really a risk of a proof of concept of, hey, can we get a few interesting independents outside of watch time and and you know show to some customers to like, wow, this is actually a cool focal point of people coming before the shows even open on the weekend. And so this year, you know, I I believe there are three times as many brands as as the year past, but it was just a great showing of so many cool names. A lot of names that we've covered, a lot of names that frankly we've wanted to cover but have never maybe had the chance to see. Um so it was really a treat to sort of start seeing people there. Yeah, I mean where to even start. I think like a few highlights for me was definitely Stephon Pierre. Uh seeing his watch there for the first time was incredible. Um Bradley Taylor is obviously always someone good to see. Atelier Peters is also a very um very interesting sort of newer brand um this year that they definitely wanted me to check out. And I think the product is really, really interesting. Griffin was also there too, so we both kind of um got to wander at our own paces there. But you know, it was just this sort of frantic, you know, I think they weren't even expecting how much, you know, demand the show would would sort of see. Um but it was just this frantic craze of people looking, you know, peering over people's shoulders as they're holding, you know, a cool new independent watch and then moving on to the next table. Just great, great energy. And again, it's a reminder that there's such a voracious appetite, you know, for for this kind of watchmaking um here in New York. And you know, a lot of people came up and it was cool to meet people that introduce themselves, being like, hey, like I read Hodinkee, and then you know, you find out that, you know, they're not even close to New York. And they they are a lot of them actually just made it over for Indies specifically. They were popping into Indies that day, I believe that was on the Thursday, and then heading out. Um weren't even coming in for the show. So again, that shows sort of how um how much of a niche that uh John and and his team, you know, Marie, um New New and James have have sort of carved out. It's great to see. |
| Griffin Barch | Well, what's slightly annoying is that Tantan just listed off a bunch of the brands that I would have listed. I mean it's uh like Tantan, I've been to I think every iteration of Indies. It is astounding the way it has grown. It took a huge leap this year. You know, there's some other brands that I I'm I really love there, uh Statera, which is a Brazilian brand that is doing really interesting dial work and is just working on their first movement. Uh Felipe Piccolik is like I it's the only place I've ever gotten to see any of those watches in person. And even as I'm just thinking, uh, you know, the you get ran, you know, Dan Reuter is wandering around just visiting the show and showing off his new movement. |
| Andy Hoffman | And it's it's a special thing. It's a it's |
| Griffin Barch | a good energy. It's cool to see that it's become the organizing principle of the Thursday. Uh it gives people a reason to be in town a day earlier. Similarly, uh I think FHH making the move uh last year. Tantan reminded me I think they were on the Friday last year and they moved to Thursday this year and it made a huge difference to that event. |
| Andy Hoffman | Did their sort of event and a bunch of panels which um plenty of the uh Hodicki team participated in indeed. So I think what we're saying is that the week is really um organized as a week with um that um allows people to to s to see as much as possible. |
| Griffin Barch | Yeah, it's become a real a much more cohesive event than it was even last year or two years ago. And it's cool to see that. And Indies is a huge part of that. And it's a show I've come to really, you know, it was the first time I'd gotten to see uh Way Co's new brand, uh Lugare Lugare, Lugare, I'm not sure how they're actually pronouncing it. But you know, just the excitement of being in a room with s and seeing people see that watch for the first time was made the whole event worth it. |
| Andy Hoffman | For sure, for sure. And in some ways I think traditionally I would think of the US market as as one obviously it's um uh critical to to Rolex's success over the years and and and the big name brands, but you know, how should I think about the U.S. market, the North American market, and their appetite and interest in these smaller indie brands, these lower production brands, these watchmaker-driven brands, are they more open to these kind of watchmakers and brands than perhaps some other parts of the world? Aaron Powell |
| Tan Tan Wang | I think uh a big part of that relates to I think I I you know and I I I won't claim this point for my uh you know as my own because I I believe that this was partly discussed um at the FHH panels, but the American viewpoint on luxury and what that means is quite different, I think, from the traditional European mindset, right? And I think with that luxury, um to generalize, you know, very broadly, uh, American luxury is sort of, you know, people people look at it as, you know, an opportunity to enjoy something nice of their own. Whereas I would say like a a m a lot of the sort of more conservative tastemaking and collecting has really been about oh putting yourself into and assimilating into a sort of a vision of heritage and a vision of history um with these big brands. So I think again, it's, you know, we're going back to, you know, people being patrons of the arts here, right? Like we are going to, you know, people love the idea of supporting these people that they're having a chat with, getting something of their own and being able to show that off as a signifier that they were able to see something maybe before a lot of the other people have, right? And I think again, it's also a nice reaction from what I see as a very big homogenization of taste, especially during the COVID era, right? of these bubbles popping up, everyone had to, you know, collect the same vintage things or the same steel paddocks, you know, and and I think now because that's calmed down a little bit, people don't feel the need to be seen enjoying and appreciating those same things. Not that they're bad by any means, they're still cool watches, but this is their way of being like, okay, I can come out of that bubble. I can take a step back. What would I really enjoy? And what would be something that makes me stand out? |
| Griffin Barch | Yeah, to that point, tan, I think we're also seeing obviously watch collecting saw a huge influx of participation during the pandemic because it was an easy thing to do from home. And it coincided with this weird rise in crypto where people were spending increasingly spending money on watches as sort of an alternative asset class. Like there's a lot of complication and reasons why so many people came to watch collecting in that moment. But now it's been it's been you know five years since kind of the the the pandemic started to ease. A lot of the crypto bros have moved on from watches. A lot of a lot of the people who just came to watches out of boredom have moved on from watches. But there is this real core of enthusiasts who that was their entry point and have now slightly matured into watches as a hobby, as a I hate to call it a lifestyle, but a little bit of a lifestyle. And because of the accelerated way in which so many of them got into watches, a lot of them have checked the boxes of I've had my submariner, I've had my Daytona, I've had my Royal Oak. What else is out there? They didn't necessarily build in the same way that a lot of us who got into watches beforehand did. And so I think there is this profound appetite that is also fed by the pretty robust watch media that exists in the United States, not to credit us too much. But even you see breakdowns of things like watch forms tend to lean heavily towards U.S. participation and or nor I should say North American participation. Canada is also a fairly robust market. Aaron Powell |
| Andy Hoffman | It's still independent. Yeah. |
| Griffin Barch | But you do see this kind of desire for the things that maybe they feel they missed out on uh that a lot of collectors feel they missed out on because they went so deep on the s core of watch, you know, that homogeneous taste that it came to exist. Aaron Powell |
| Andy Hoffman | So do we think that that um New York Watch Week can continue to aspire to compete with the other international watchweeks and as a collective bunch of shows and events can do that without having the direct participation of the Holy Trinity of Batek and uh Odomar Piet and and even Rolex um and Vacharon um is you know do they not need it or or do they still need that final piece to to um you know legitimize the event? |
| Tan Tan Wang | I don't think they do, right? Because I think you know a lot of what makes watch time and wind up so special, for example, is and and indies, right? Really, to an extent, is these are these are brands that embrace the sort of direct, you know, communication towards consumers, right? The conversation is part of the brand appeal. And, you know, I think this is something that is certainly not as prioritized by sort of, let's say, the Holy Trinity. It's a very different way of appealing to their customer base. Indies, for example, like, you know, one of the big changes this year from a business perspective is that indies is basically taking a certain percentage from each sale that comes out of the show. And you know, part of that proceed will then also then be donated to, you know, I believe a a watchmaking school partner of some sort. But you know, again, they're they're sort of coming out and being like, hey, we're actually focused, like we know you're here to basically talk to people and and sell watches this way. And I so I think, you know, again, if that is what some of these shows are all about, you know, that I think that's all they need to do. I don't think there's there needs to be anything uh further. But I don't know Griffin, if you uh Noah if you agree. |
| Griffin Barch | I think I agree, but I think I come at it from a slightly different point of view, which is just that anytime those those big brands that you mentioned, Andy, Rolex, Paddock, AP, uh, even Bashron, anytime they come into a space like this, they just take up so much oxygen that and deserve it largely deservedly. I mean, you think about Rolex has no problem selling the number of watches they make, which is a staggering number of watches, whatever that number actually is but |
| Andy Hoffman | we don't know the exact number but we we know it we know it's close to a million or around I think it's more than |
| Tan Tan Wang | more than 10 I think. I |
| Griffin Barch | think it's probably more than 10 less than a hundred million uh somewhere somewhere in there. But the point being, you know, Rolex doesn't need I'm not sure what they would get out of New York Watch Week, first of all, but also I think it's great to have some opportunities throughout the year for other brands to kind of b get above the surface. And clearly the lack of Rolex or AP is not limiting the participation in New York Watch Week. |
| Andy Hoffman | For sure. And I think I |
| Tan Tan Wang | think also one of the brands that's kind of right in the middle there is Alonga and Zona, right? Um you know, they had been at Watchtime and arguably an integral part of Watchtime. I remember they used to take over the entire, you know, top balcony at this show. and yet in the past two years they they haven't really done so and have chosen a different week to do some you know more of their brand activations. But I think you know, again, they're not the same um scale, certainly, as as the Holy Trinity, but I think it's a good example where if Langa is seeing that maybe they don't necessarily want or need to be part of this conversation. I would assume by uh by, you know, transitive property, the uh those those bigger brands uh certainly don't either. |
| Andy Hoffman | Yeah. No, I think that's um that's an important point and and at the same time it's not like we see any of those holy trinity brands or Rolex pulling back at all from the US market. If anything, they're all doubling down and uh increasing the presence ro Rolex obviously, rebuilding, refurbishing um its uh headquarters in New York and soon to open a uh a brand new boutique with Boucher there, uh critical market for them and one that they're continuing to to focus on for sure. Let's move on, you know, um to wind up then, which um, you know, speaking of uh oxygen, I mean, you know, uh what a what a what a what a different uh feel. What a different sort of um vibe, uh what a different kind of excitement and enthusiasm, just unbridled there and just l you know, it's like a like a Turkish bazaar or something in there. Sometimes it's really fun and wild and you don't know who you're gonna come across next. I mean, um what was your sense of of uh wind up this year? Although it was really interesting to me. It was the first wind up I've ever covered uh and been to, uh, because that is a largely North American uh event. And um uh, you know, it was interesting to see the sort of presence of what I would see as sort of anchors to the event. So Brew had this major presence launching their um taxi watch, and then Christopher Ward, the Anglo-Swiss brand that focuses on the value driven market, taking up a whole bunch of space there amid all these small little tables with um uh all these brand founders and people um trying to tell you their uh their personal story. Yeah. How did you find Windup this year? |
| Unknown | Ooh It was uh you |
| Tan Tan Wang | know, I mean I y it's not all that different from last year, um, you know, other than maybe some of the layout changing, but wow, like it, it is it is nuts, right? There is no other word I can really use to describe it. Um the lines are |
| Andy Hoffman | lineups around the block. Lines are wrapping |
| Tan Tan Wang | around the block, which, you know, I hope they can probably change in the future in terms of ticketing strategy or or sort of given their lack thereof right now. Um I think it is so exciting to see how many people are coming to this. I th I rem you know, I wasn't there during the sort of Chelsea market days when when wind up was, you know, a very small operation, but I was there in its previous format before they moved over to center four one five. Um and so again, just seeing how crazy this market has exploded and the demand um for this kind of stuff and you know, again, I I'm gonna say something very, very cynical and I don't believe it, but I think, you know, if we if we take this high level idea of these fairs as literally you wait in line or you pay to buy something, or you to hopefully buy something, you know, it is crazy and and very fun to see sort of how many people um want this opportunity to be able to do so directly and as close to maybe the founders of these brands as possible, right? It's all about the story here. And you know, I think Griffin has a very valuable viewpoint given that um he has sort of been on many sides of um this this operation, right? and so I definitely wanna hear more from him about this, but again, it is just an overwhelming pile of watch nerd energy. And you know, it's it's so big to a point where my friends were getting reels on their algorithm about the lines that wind up, even though they don't care about watches. Right. That's how that's how nuts we've gotten. Um so again, you know, lots of cool brands that I'm sure we'll we'll talk about shortly. But um yeah, I don't want to take too much time before handing it over to Griffin. |
| Andy Hoffman | Yeah, I mean just before just before uh we hear from Griffin. Indeed, I mean, you know, it's not like Swatch doesn't like the lineups outside of the uh boutiques when they drop a moon swatch or the uh royal pop, right? It's just about how those are managed. And so yeah, I mean it was nothing but good publicity for for wind up and for the industry itself, even if um it uh it it is a little uncomfortable that some folks had to wait in line uh online for you know more than an hour or so. |
| Griffin Barch | Yeah. I mean I I was hearing stories from people I was talking to who were telling me I waited three hours to get in here today. What's remarkable is they didn't say that, they weren't mad, they weren't frustrated, they were just like, and I got in and I'm so excited to be here, which is a remarkable thing. Uh to Tantan's point, I I have had um I think I've I've definitely gone to more wind ups than either of you two. Um, I've been lucky enough, I I got to work very closely with the team from Warnerwound for several years. I got to attend wind ups in San Francisco and Chicago and New York. Fortunately I never quite made it to Austin, which sounds like a very cool show. Um what's incredible about Wind Up is in each city the show has a decidedly different character and flavor. And New York is by by a huge margin the the biggest. Uh it's the original. It has grown so quickly. I mean, it's it's hard to think. I mean, last year was the tenth anniversary of Wind Up as a concept. This is the third year that they were in Center 415. I think this year they had 70 more brands than they had their first year in this space. They used up significantly more of the space, and it was significantly more full with people. It's an astounding achievement. It is also hard to process. I remember the first time I went to a windup at Chelsea market, before I was in the industry when I was just a hobbyist enthusiast. You could kind of do the whole thing in 45 minutes. And, you know, I think I did over the course of the three days I was at the show for about four, four or five hours. And I don't feel like I saw anything close to what was available to see. Aaron Ross |
| Andy Hoffman | Powell I had a similar uh experience in that uh yeah, I felt there was so much that I missed and I was there for uh a bit of time. Um uh you know and it was uh it was I bought a watch though when I was there. I bought the |
| Griffin Barch | we all did. I bought the Yeah. |
| Andy Hoffman | I bought the um the new um orange version of the Autodromo Group C. Uh the analog digital um uh piece, which I think I wrote up the introduction for uh on Hodiki a while ago. And yeah, I mean I just found it, you know, um quite charming and quite uh fresh and new and it's got this um nice um anodized aluminum case and then uh teal buttons and I just thought it was cool. And I got to meet the uh the guy behind um Autodromo and and yeah, it was a very personal fun experience, right? And that's what b basically almost all the brands are offering there. I mean Mike France, the CEO of of Christopher Award, was there, uh as was Jonathan from uh from Brew. I mean, yeah, uh you know, the the real principles behind the brands are all there. Yeah. |
| Tan Tan Wang | I just wanna quickly point out um and I think Griffin knows where I'm born with this. Um I on day one of the fair had picked up my now new um Broommetric Chrono Taxi, which is the the New York edition uh for this this year's fair, uh which I had written about. And to be honest, I kind of in my head was like, all right, this is cool. I'm probably not gonna buy it this year. You know, it's it's fun, it's whatever, but it's just you know, it's I don't need another watch. No, none of us do. Um, but when I saw it in person, I was like, okay, I have to have it. And so Griffin sees me on Friday at the show with my little bright yellow uh metric chrono taxi bag. And Griffin goes, I can't believe you bought another watch, right? Like I can't believe you bought one. Um, you know, this one's I was like, Yeah, it was it's cool. And he's like, Yeah, th this one's just not for me. You know, uh even though I've always wanted a brew, it's just, yeah, it's it's not my thing. And then the next day I get one WhatsApp message with a photo of him holding a bright yellow brew chronometric taxi bag. |
| Griffin Barch | Yep. Uh guilty. And I will defend I'm actually not gonna defend myself. uh any any any recompense that you feel I deserve, I definitely deserve on this one. I spent a good portion of Friday mocking Tantan for buying this watch and then I did buy it on Saturday. And I'm wearing it right now and it's fantastic. But I do think that each of the three of us who have fairly ready access to watches that we want walked away from this show having purchased something. Mm-hmm. And it does speak to exactly the thing we were talking about with indies, exactly the thing we were talking about with the MB and F lounge, which is each of us was able to buy the watch we bought from the person who made the watch. |
| Andy Hoffman | Yeah. And having that you know, |
| Griffin Barch | I'm not sure on some levels I wouldn't have bought this watch without seeing it in person because frankly, I and I've said this already uh publicly, I thought the in the brand imagery for the taxi brew metric did not make the watch look good. I I did not like it until I saw it in person and was seeing it on people's wrists. But also what made it special was being able to have this interaction with John as I bought the watch. And Andy, I would imagine that that is somewhat true of your experience with Bradley and buying the autodromo. |
| Andy Hoffman | And Absolutely I got to meet Bradley Price and and say, Hey man, I really like what you're doing and and and yeah, tell me. |
| Griffin Barch | And it's it's a great, much more affordable version of the same experience that I imagine people are searching for when they're having these conversations at Indies or watch time with these independent watchmakers. You know, people who are actually getting to talk to Kari Wuttenleinen at watchtime, to be able to have that personal connection and infused into the purchasing experience of the watch makes such a huge difference. And it is fascinating to me that that is a commonality between buying a kari voudalinen or trying to get onto a wait list for a kari voudalen at watch time. |
| Tan Tan Wang | which is closed now, I believe. Yeah, I think it is. So that's so it's even funnier than that. Maybe a terrible |
| Griffin Barch | example. But it's the same it's the same kind of kick that you get from talking to Tom Clements at Clements Watches and ordering a watch from him. |
| Tan Tan Wang | Yeah. Talking to Ken Lamb at Ark and buying |
| Griffin Barch | a watch from him, talking to John, buying a brute. Like I think w what the through line of all of this is is that personal connection seems to be the driving force behind this week. |
| Andy Hoffman | Absolutely. So let's wrap it up. We've taken almost an hour, but um you know, coming away from the watch week and such enthusiasm it was crowded at every show bigger than ever before. Is this sustainable for the US market? I mean, looking ahead, I mean, economic worries, geopolitical events aside, is this another sort of fad blip in the U.S. market or is this here to stay? And then do these events and does New York Watch Week have to then expand and maybe find different venues to keep that experience that |
| Tan Tan Wang | I think this is absolutely here to state because I actually think counter to what we maybe think when you know tim,es get a little you, know har,der and money is a little tighter. For these brands, this is the best way to reach out to their consumers. Right? The US is an |
| Andy Hoffman | outlier right now in the in the market and and uh indeed, yeah. Everyone else is worried and the US uh consumers still ready to buy watches. |
| Tan Tan Wang | Exactly. And you know, when people are more hesitant, um when people are thinking about okay, let's say, you know, the guy that's buying a few, you know, really high-end independents a year, let's say, you know, this person, if they are, let's say, in a situation in which they're now only considering one per year, right? or one allocation list to get on per year, it's these conversations that will make a difference and will make or break what this person chooses, right? From a collector's mindset. And so I think for these brands, even during a downturn, this is the best strategy for them. And you know, I think that applies to a certain extent to wind up as well, where it is this sort of bigger, tighter connection to the consumer that will compel someone to purchase a watch. And so I think that this is certainly here to stay um even in sort of different times. |
| Griffin Barch | I wholly agree with that sentiment broadly. I do think wind up specifically, uh the scale of the show, if they can't like they they are now at a point. I'm not sure moving to a larger venue is the solution. I think moving to a larger venue, I mean frankly, there's not that many m venues in New York where there's you know, you're kind of your your next step as you're looking at doing something like the Javits Convention Center. |
| Tan Tan Wang | Right. Which would be which |
| Griffin Barch | for those who don't know, is where they do New York Comic Con, which is one of the largest conventions of any sort in the United States on a in a given year. So like that's too far. But I do think, you know, we've now had two years where a big part of the conversation coming out of Windup is lines. We are maybe at a point where if they don't if the team behind Windup doesn't start to solve for that, it might start having a negative impact on the show overall. |
| Tan Tan Wang | I don't think it did this year. |
| Griffin Barch | But it's a challenge. Um |
| Tan Tan Wang | about I think about these lines, um sort of in a negative uh light. |
| Griffin Barch | Yeah. So I think it um you know, that it that is a challenge that needs to be overcome. Um I will say when I went briefly on Sunday to pick something up, right before the show opened, there was no there was no line. There I mean, maybe there were 10 people waiting for the show to open. So Sunday was clearly better. So maybe it's has to be something like Friday and Saturday. You have to ticket the show so that you have a little bit of control. And then Sunday is the free-for-all open day. There definitely needs to be a solution there because I think if they don't address that, it might start to turn a corner. |
| Tan Tan Wang | Yeah. I mean, you know, at the end of the end of the day, popularity is great, lines are are are fun to see, but you know, there's a lot of people that are coming and and taking their valuable time, right? to come to this stuff. And I think figuring out the path to least resistance for these people to take use their time efficiently and wisely, I think that would be the the goal here. Yeah. That would be the New York way too. No one's I think line culture is also out of control. People are lining up for frozen yogurt, right, these days. Andy, you're not a part of this because you don't live in New York, but there's a bunch of lines for frozen yogurt, uh, even as the weather gets col |
| Andy Hoffman | Indeed. Well, gentlemen, we'll have to leave it there. Thank you for welcome me in New York to my first ever uh New York watch week. It was uh a total pleasure and and a lot of fun. So Griffin Barch and Ten Ten Wang, thank you for joining us on the business of watches. Cheers, Andy. |
| Unknown | Thanks for having us. And |
| Andy Hoffman | that's the business of watches for this episode. We hope you enjoyed. Please head on over to Hodinkee.com where you can join the discussion and leave any comments or questions about this episode or the business of watches in general. Who knows? We might even answer your question on a future episode. Thanks for listening and see you next time |