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The Business of Watch [038] Armin Strom Co-Founders And Top Executives Serge Michel and Claude Greisler

Published on Wed, 2 Sep 2026 15:00:00 +0000

The independent brand co-founders talk watchmaking, marketing, innovation and how they developed their unique take on the concept of resonance in horology.

Synopsis

In this episode of Hodinkee's "Business of Watches" podcast, host Andy Hoffman interviews Serge Michel and Claude Griesler, the co-founders and co-CEOs of independent Swiss watch brand Armin Strom, based in Biel, Switzerland. The conversation explores their unique partnership, where Claude, a trained watchmaker and engineer, handles technical development and manufacturing, while Serge focuses on business operations and sales. They discuss how they acquired the Armin Strom brand name from the original watchmaker who was known for skeletonized timepieces in their hometown of Burgdorf, where both grew up and knew each other since childhood.

The core of the discussion focuses on their journey to becoming a manufacture in 2009 and their groundbreaking work on resonance watchmaking. Claude explains how they developed an innovative "resonance clutch" – a flexible bridge connecting two independent movements that allows them to synchronize more effectively than traditional resonance mechanisms. This four-year development process involved collaboration with CSEM (a Swiss research center) and government funding. Currently producing around 400 watches annually with 55 employees, they make approximately 150 resonance pieces per year. The brand faces challenges in scaling production due to the intensive hand-decoration work required, finding and training skilled watchmakers, and selecting retail partners who understand independent watchmaking. They recently launched a minute repeater and continue to innovate, with plans to expand their facilities while maintaining their philosophy of keeping traditional hand-finishing techniques combined with modern engineering innovation.

Transcript

Speaker
Andy Hoffman Welcome to the Business of Watches, the Ho Dinky podcast, where we go behind the scenes and talk to the executives and the decision makers who are making the watch industry tick. I'm your host, Andy Hoffman. Today we are joined by the co-founders and the co-heads of an independent Swiss brand, Armand Strom, based in Biel, Bienne, Switzerland. Today we are joined by Serge Michel and Claude Griesler, the co-heads of that brand. Serge and Claude, welcome to the business of watches.
Claude Griesler Thank you very much. Thank you for having us. Great.
Andy Hoffman And so I got to visit you um a few weeks back. It was my first visit to Armand Strom. Interesting. I mean, I want to start off. Your titles are co-founders and you're both co-heads or co CEOs of the company. How does that work in terms of, you know, work responsibilities or how the company runs? How do you divvy up um that leadership? I think we didn't really giving a lot of thinking into this. we just Claude and I we started probably get back uh we we're going to talk about the history as well. So we we started the uh the Armin's drone brand as co-founders, then Claude is definitely focusing more or hundred percent focusing on the uh developments on the engineering part on building up the whole manufacturer site in Beale and it was more taking care of the sales side, of the business side and and then we just uh came here where we are step by step. We didn't really talk a lot of who is the CEO, who is not the CEO, it's just we are co-founders, good friends today and we're just leading the company as it is today. And Claude, I mean let's talk about you know both of your backgrounds. Serge, you you come from a sort of business family that were involved in other industries, I guess the medical industry, pharmaceutical kind of things. Claude, you're a watchmaker and I believe you're an engineer. Is that right? I mean, tell me, yeah, about how your sort of training and background brought you together in this endeavor.
Serge Michel Yeah, maybe for my career.
Claude Griesler So I grew up in a watchmaker family. My grandmother and my grandfather they already worked in the watch industry. So this is how I get influenced and inspired to get a watchmaker degree. So that was my first degree was watchmaking, which took about four years of education. And then I graduated in watch engineering to become uh an expert in uh first watch restoration, so for antique clocks and pocket watches, but then unfortunately there were not a lot of jobs available. Um then I also did a degree in watch uh movement engineering and then got hired by Christoph Clarke as a young engineer to develop watch movements.
Andy Hoffman Interesting. Interesting. And then so Tino tell us what brought you together. I think you were friends. You knew each other before you started Armand Strom. So let's talk about, you know, the founding and the beginnings of the company, why it's called Armand Strom, who Armin Strom was, and how that came together.
Serge Michel So yeah, the history goes really back to
Andy Hoffman Mr. Arminstrom and the little
Serge Michel village in uh Switzerland called Burgdorf. So Arminstrom was active there as a watchmaker um with a small shop in Burgdorf. I grew up in Burgdorf and also so did a clot. So we we knew each we have the same age. So we went to the same schools. we we knew each other since uh more or less since childhood. So when the uh when we had the
Andy Hoffman opportunity to take over the brand.
Serge Michel So my dad was a quite a close friend of Mr. Armin's room so he he purchased the watch and then we we uh the first my first experience with army's when uh when I was uh probably around twelve, thirteen years old, when I went into the into his uh basement and did see him working on his skeleton pieces. So we got friends, the Arminström family, myself and Claude, at the other hand, the family of uh Greisler. So the parents, they just had a shop just next to, very close to Mr. Arminstrom, so also Claude knew Arminstrom since he was a little boy as well. And Armin was always the guy for us, driving with his red jaguar in Burgdorf, travelling the world, selling his exclusive timepieces. So it's always a guy we looked up to him and when we got the uh possibility uh because it was actually was uh Armin was looking for a succeeder, so to somebody to take over the brand because he wasn't a certain So we, my dad and myself, we immediately said yes, um, as uh more from the angle of watch collectors. Um as you said before, we have a completely different background. Um we said yes, so it would be sad if that brand would would just disappear. So we we took over the brand with the idea of just keeping the tradition of skeleton time pieces. This was was Mr. Armistrum his his uh his strength was where he was active. Um so we hired um two watchmakers to be trained by Mr. Arminstrom in the craftsmanship of skeleton watches. But then suddenly actually we we realize that there's a is a potential and if you have a brand um have more marketing background, we should do a bit more than just uh keep buying much movements, keletonize them, which is beautiful, it's nice. But we had the we had a slightly different idea, and this is when Claude came into the game. So I called Claude because I knew he was doing all his as he explained before the professions with within the watchmaking industry. So I called Claude and asked him to join. To join me, to join Armidström, to join the brand, and he was immediately excited about this new adventure. And so he
Andy Hoffman And so you started in Beel uh in Bien with the name Arminstrom, and early on carrying that tradition of skeletonization that Mr. Armandstrom was known for. And then, you know, talk about how the brand, you know, has grown and some of the specialized and and um in-house movements and and sort of tech that you've come to be known for. I mean um you do a resonance watch, which is still quite rare, but you developed a whole Claude, I think you were very much involved with that leading that uh research and discovery. Talk about that process and and and how Armand Strom came to make its own kind of resonance timepiece.
Claude Griesler Yeah, I think everything goes back to two thousand and nine, as Serg mentioned, when we took the decision to become a movement manufacturer. What we mainly realized and myself is that Mr. Armin Strong he wrote chapter one for the brand. He did this skeletonized timepieces. He was known and countermaster of hand skeletonisation because hand skeletonization is like an artwork and he was very known for his particular style. And Armistrump was long strongly believing that the movement should not be covered with a dial, that the movement should always be the star of the watch. And Serge and I, when we were just under thirty years and I mean we were fans of traditional watches, but on the other hand there was this wish of maybe creating or giving uh our identity to the brand with like in-house manufacture movements, maybe not fully classical hand skeletonized and hand engraved, but always transparent mechanics from the front and from the backside. And we realized that there were a few suppliers who were could have uh produced movements for us, but on the other hand, there was this wish of being completely independent, and this is why we decided to become a movement manufacturer in 2009. And when you become a movement manufacturer, I think first you have to prove that you're able to do your own movements. So we started with a very not a standard hand winding movement, was a double barrel hand winding movement with power reserve indicator. Then we did the automatic winding movement with a micro rotor, we did a turbillon, we had an automatic winding tour beyond. And so we were on the let's say the very first five, six years, we were really proving to the collectors that we were able to realize and to produce our reliable uh in-house calibers. And then by creating those calibers, we realized that there's room to improve because we had very modern CNC machines, we use the latest 3D development technologies. And then there was like this I mean the resonance is a a topic which I worked since I'm I graduated in watch restoration and I knew that's that's an an unsolved problem. So I think as a young engineer and as a young motivated brand, we try to solve problems and we realize that okay there is room to improve watch movements. I mean the we we improve the power reserve on our standard movements. We had a very accurate, cool looking uh tourbill. But on the other hand, there was like this resonance topic which was always a very meaningful movement for myself.
Andy Hoffman and for those who don't maybe know exactly what resonance is, explain the concept and practice of resonance in in a in watchmaking clone.
Claude Griesler Exactly. Resonance is a very old phenomenon it's basically a physical phenomenon which means synchronization between two independent watch movements. And if two watch movements start to synchronize and to influence each other and synchronize their frequency, the time becomes much more consistent, and the time is much more reliable to external shocks and impacts because they do help each other keeping a very consistent frequency. A phenomenon which got discovered by Christian Huygens, the inventor of the pendulum more than four hundred years ago. And then there was a handful of them like the most famous watchmaker who dedicated themselves to solve the resonance problem. We had Abraham Louis Burguet, we had Anti Chambier, recently we had uh Francois Paul Journ so because it's not only a a huge challenge of having two independent movements in one watch but to bring them to beat in synchronization is what it's all about resonance. And we realized that it's thanks to modern technologies like flexible suspensions that there was room to improve the existing traditional approach of a resonance movement with two balance wheels. And this is what driving us to create our own resonance mechanism because we knew that the resonance is very helpful and it's very meaningful in chronometry because it makes the movement more precise. But maybe the more traditional way of doing resonance doesn't solve all the problems. And this is why we developed this uh resonance clutch which allows the two movements to communicate in a much better uh environment. And so the performance of the resonance is increased tremendously. So I mean this is the resonance is much better performing than the traditional resonance. And this is this is why resonance became such a signature complication for the brand, because then everything came together because we had our in-house research and development, we have the in-house fabrication, so we do all the components of the movements are produced in-house. We have the hand decoration in house, galvanic treatments, assembling and uh so yeah this is it's definitely a signature piece for for the brand.
Andy Hoffman And so you know let's be a little more specific about the the resonance clutch sort of mechanism or approach that you've taken. I mean, essentially there is a component made of uh metal, but I'm not sure what, that connects the two balances basically and allow you know and sort of improves that resonance, you know, of frequencies and movement between the two movements. Talk about, you know, what was the process involved in creating that mechanism. And I I believe that there were outsiders involved and researchers and yeah, talk about it. Because it wasn't all just done by yourself
Claude Griesler So when we had this idea of of improving the resonance mechanism and it's not a c a connection between the two balance beans, it's a shared suspension, it's like a flexible bridge. Because we what we learned in resonance is that the vibrations go through the movement, and the vibration which goes through the movement allow the two balance wheels to synchronize. The transmission of vibrations through solid plates as bridges and main plates are unvisible. So we you can measure them, but we don't see
Andy Hoffman them. But what we learned is
Claude Griesler that the exchange of vibration can be made in a more precise way, and this is why we do not connect the two
Claude Griesler hairsprings or the two balance wheels,
Claude Griesler we just have them sitting in a very flexible bridge. The resonance clutch is basically a balance bridge which is extremely flexible and which allows the two hairsprings to communicate in between them in a much more optimum way than a solid blade or a solid bridge. So it took us about three and a half years to develop that clutch because that's a new element for in watchmaking. Watchmakers uh never used flexible elements, especially in between hairsprings or or or suspensions uh for for for the start. It's the smallest element which is fixed at the end of the hairspring. So the stuff normally is fixed in the balance bridge. In our case, it's fixed in this flexible element. So there's no watchmaker book you can open and just learn about how to develop a flexible suspension. You have to write history, you have to find people who are able to work with those flexible elements. And at the beginning it was trial error, trial, error. So like watchmakers we strongly believe in what we see, and we adapt the theory in what we have learned from the workbench. Versus doctors or professors in physics, they do the opposite. They first think about the problem, then they realize, and then they figure out why the practical uh tests do not fit to the theoretical press. So it's the opposite. And we learned that we need help because we were at the point where we had perfect resonance. There was just one position which was always uh putting us in an unstable resonance environment or situation. And so we approached the CSEM, the Centre Scientifique, Electronic and Microtechnique in Le Chatel. The CSCM is has a very long history in the watch industry. They developed the silicon technology. They worked on a lot of different escapements. So they have a huge knowledge in watchmaking and they also work in aerospace technology. And in aerospace, they use a lot of those flexible guidings, those flexible elements. Everything happens by chance in life and we we we had a close friend who uh knew the CEO of the CSCM so we went because in in at that time the team was still very small at Armand Strong so. we went to see that the CEO of the CSCM and we showed him our prototype because we were extremely proof and he was so fascinated of seeing two balance wheels beating in sync. We had the patent we had a patent on the on on that flexible connection between the two hairsprings and uh so we were asking him yeah could you help like you know finding the the the the right shape for that spring, or to try to understand exactly what happens, and he said, Yeah, this is exactly what we do. And he he made us an offer, which was uh beyond what we could invest in in a development,
Andy Hoffman right? But the guy was so into this
Claude Griesler resonance thing that he said, Okay, but if you can't afford to work with the CSCM, there is another way so we can th th there is maybe the opportunity to get the thing financed by the government and because you are a small business, you try to grow a small business, you have a patent and you have a prototype. So you can apply to get some help, financial help, to do the research together with the CSCM. And then we went to this uh uh what is called Commission of Innovation and Technology. And uh so we applied for to get some uh money to study on resonance and then finally they agreed and they financed the a big part of the collaboration with the CSCM.
Andy Hoffman Interesting. Interesting. And so give us a a timeline as to when this was. I mean you you were thinking about this back in two thousand and nine um when you started the company, but um when was this taking place and can you give us a sense of you know, what kind of investment it took to come up with um such innovation?
Claude Griesler So the manufacturer was built in 2009. We launched the resonance in 2016, and we started the collaboration with the CSM, if I'm not wrong, 14. 2014. And we basically started on working on the resonance about 2012. So it was like four years before uh launching the final piece. And then two years to put the patent down to get the first prototypes made, and then another one and a half year together with the CSCM to finalize the actual shape which is now on on on our resonance uh uh mechanism.
Andy Hoffman Indeed. And you know last thing on the on the resonance side, I believe the last time we were talking you were suggesting that perhaps the application of this clutch and and this technology, this innovation, could be used for other complications other than resonances is that is that right? Am I thinking about that correctly?
Claude Griesler Absolutely. Yeah, I think the the potential of flexible elements is is is extremely big because we still we I mean we have to handle tolerances and and and every watch engineer has a has a problem because the even if we have the most precise machines which we use, we always have to handle tolerances and we hand to work with play in between different components and flexible elements, they do work mostly without play. So there is like let's say for the I think in the chronograph uh I see applications for chronographies for calendars for, there's uh minute repeaters, there is room, definitely room to to to bring more flexible elements to to the watchmaking uh world. It's just you know, as a watchmaker you get trained and and and you learn all these theories. You we get all those watchmaker books, we have to go through the watchmaker's book, we have to learn theories, and then we get tested on you know, does he know how to apply this theory on a movement or on a on a on a new development? But there is not that much room for innovation. So, watchmakers do not get trained to innovate tile pieces. This is why a lot of watchmakers they always take reference on the past. But Abraham Louis Broguet was always never taking reference to the past. He always tried to improve and try to learn new things. And this is exactly what drives today the brand Arm in Strong. we we have a lot of respect for existing theories, but we also know that if we wanna if you wanna uh grow and innovate, yeah we have to think about outside of the box, we have to close the watchmaker books and maybe we have to open books from aerospace technology, from automotive technologies and they get our inspirations from other mechanical industries than the watch industry. Because otherwise, if we just apply what we learned, I think the movement cannot get better. So this is why this is what drives me as as an engineer to get the inspiration a little bit from the outside of the watch industry. And still having this full respect for our tradition. I mean of course the way how we execute, I mean our biggest theme is hand decoration for hand beveling, Geneva stripes, bellage. So this is w this is a full commitment to traditional watchmaking. But as an as an engineer from the innovative side, we have to start to think outside of what was done before.
Andy Hoffman Yeah, no, that is quite interesting to think about how indeed the tradition and the education, the pedagogy of watchmaking actually doesn't lend itself well to that uh idea of innovation and doing things differently. Serge, let's talk about I mean you are co-founders with Claude and co-leaders. You I believe own the company, or you and your family own the company or are 100% shareholder. Talk about, you know, how many watches you make a year, how the company is grown, and what
Claude Griesler Yeah, the at the moment we are we are in uh
Serge Michel in in Biel and we are just on a bit on a turning point and and looking in the future and planning a lot in the future ahead. So there's so many in ideas clawed the team have. So we need to guide which direction we are going. if we double the production, if we're if we're um going to more uh high end exclusive pieces we have this line called system seventy eight which is a bit our it's high watch high order is is uh it's uh within our museum the entry level complications. And
Andy Hoffman it's named seventy eight because that's the year you were both born. That's
Serge Michel right. We were both born in nineteen seventy-eight.
Andy Hoffman But today we are up at the uh at
Serge Michel uh four hundred pieces here. That's what we can do in the um in the building where we are today. Uh we are at fifty five people. Most of them are watchmakers and as Claude said, within the watchmakers most of them are in the decoration department. So four hundred watches, about fifty-five people. Big uh opportunity now that we um can grow the brand. I mean it's uh there's a hype within independent brands. Um we are definitely um on that wave as well. So the the uh demand we have worldwide um in in in certain markets is huge. Uh resonance is is uh is one of the complications where we are limited in terms of uh production, it's it's very delicate and difficult for the assembly team. So we do, if I am right, around one hundred and fifty of our timepieces are resonance watches. There is a big chance to easily do more and and with the ideas we have, and there's also more probably to come in the future, more collections, not only but definitely also within the resonance, there will be uh different timepieces in the future as well. Aaron Powell
Andy Hoffman Interesting. And uh I believe you're expanding the facilities, the sort of capacity, is that right? So we had
Serge Michel one step we had uh two years ago where we added some space in our existing building, we also did move the whole fabrication um workshop to a different location. So where the fabrication was the older machinery, we have now uh the whole uh decoration team. The next step, if you're taking it, will be uh a new a new uh headquarter, a new uh building where it the idea, the philosophy of Claude and myself is really to have everything under one roof again. It's not the
Andy Hoffman perfect situation to have the fabrication
Serge Michel in a different location. it would be nice to have everybody in the same building in the same location again. And this is something we are working at at the moment. Yeah.
Andy Hoffman And so doing about four hundred pieces per year right now, around a hundred and fifty, I think you said, or or resonance at this time. What's your average price now these days and and 'cause i th you know, you're actually there's quite a range in terms of uh the price for your your pieces. And you know, what kind of production increase do you think you can you can do as you um upgrade and expand those facilities?
Serge Michel The brand also in the high end pieces when we when we look what we did this year with the launch of the minute repeater resonance. So we we had this uh resonant based based on resonance, a new minute repeater at twelve fifty-nine with a special complication. Um
Claude Griesler which retails for 390,000
Serge Michel and and and we we we have the orders for all the pieces at the moment. So there's definitely opportunity to grow in that segment. It's something we are we have to learn, so we have to guide very wisely in the future if we if we focus more on that segment. I strongly believe also in the uh system seventy eight segment. I mean it's high watchmaking. Um bit kind of entry level but when when when you see what we do there and within this collection the gravity equal force as an example which involves an innovation as well with the equal force barrel superb uh hand decoration which we offer for a very reasonable price I think it's something we want to keep and we want to do as well. So if we grow, I think we grow on on both segments. But again for this we definitely need more space, we need more people, we need we need more uh talented watchmakers. And uh we've seen in in certain segments, in certain uh jobs we also need to train them to uh to be able to uh work on such high complications and in in the in the quality of decoration, hand decoration we want to keep uh the brand.
Andy Hoffman It's interesting. I mean um from that marketing and communications and awareness side, I mean I remember a few years ago you actually were a Formula One team sponsor, which was an interesting endeavor. You're not doing it anymore, but it's certainly something that is quite common, obviously, in the watch world. Tell me about your experience doing that, what team you're involved with, why you did it, and and um if you think it was a valuable thing to do in terms of raising brand awareness and and I guess brand equity with that. Yeah.
Claude Griesler It was not really the uh we
Serge Michel we didn't really did it because of brand awareness. It was for us, it was a tool back then to uh worldwide platform to invite people, journalists. So the brand was really at the beginning, we just had the setup of our fully fledged manufacturer we launched back then was in 2011, maybe two or three in-house calibers. Um the one week back then and then and certain movements. So we needed the platform to spread the words within the industry more than uh to uh collect this end-to-end consumers. So we used the Formula One um as a platform to invite people. So we we uh that's what I realized when you travel to the USA, when you travel to Asia, you have a meeting with uh with the CEO of of a retail shop, sometimes small, sometimes family owned, we have one hour. And it's not easy to come as Armin's shown of course for us it was the best brand, but to convince somebody within one hour is not that easy. So the the Formula was a platform to to spend a full day, including dinner, including nice experience, including uh different talks, different topics. So that was the main reason why we did Formula One Plus. Claude and I, we both we we we love cars, we like engines. Um and the uh close connections we got back then with the uh the team was virtu, virgin racing and then uh it was virgin Marusha racing. So very close. It was very close. We even did the watch where we melted down some engine parts. So we got some engine parts from a Formula real working Formula One engine. We melted the parts and move and produced one of our movements, watch movements um for Armin Strong. It was quite a great a nice experience as well.
Andy Hoffman Absolutely. And um but is not something that you know not the kind of marketing or communications um project you have to do now you feel I mean talk about you know you did mention you know obviously there's been much more focus and awareness of independent brands. How have you benefited from that and how have you sort of, you know, tried to uh take advantage of that shift in collector and market taste?
Serge Michel Both of us, Claude and I when we travel a lot, we have a lot of collectors we meet um when we travel. It's not just that we we uh it's what we like to do. To our collectors to have lunches and dinners together with them to to talk about the brand, to talk about the watch industry. And the depend brands is I think it's it's uh we don't really need to do market the traditional way of doing marketing as the larger brands are doing. it's we we focused we always focused on the product. So the watch for Claude and myself was always in the center of our whole universe. So we believe we strongly believe if we keep on uh doing great watches, the collectors will get the awareness of the brand as well. And I think this is what's happening now within the whole independent watch world. So we realize the the collectors realize that there's more out there, serious products where when I put down the money, and if if if you pay fifty thousand plus seventy thousand for a watch, it's quite a lot of money. It's not too many people who can afford a watch like this. So you get a real great product, not just the marketing bubble. Right. So this is I think that's the approach within the independent watch world which brought the success over the last couple of years.
Andy Hoffman So tell us, you know, how you are dealing I mean what is your biggest challenge these days? Is it finding watchmakers? Is it dealing with rising input costs? Is it um having you know better retail partners or distribution channels? What's the biggest challenge on both sides for you, both Claude and Serge?
Claude Griesler Maybe from the production side,
Claude Griesler I mean as as Serge mentioned,
Claude Griesler we have much more demand than we had uh when we started in two thousand and nine. I mean we celebrated every single sale because it was it was hard selling at that time. It
Serge Michel did. Convince people to invest in there
Claude Griesler were a bunch of collectors worldwide which were already like investing in independent bands, but it was it was difficult to convince people to buy uh an unknown brand versus today it's much more help. So from a business perspective, we try to increase the capacity. To increase capacity with the with the hand decoration is not easy because it's not just scaling up and producing more parts because as there said there's a lot of human work involved. So we have to train people, we have to find people, we have to make sure that the team fits together, that uh it's not about every single person who does decoration, but it's also the whole setup of the team to make sure that they can work hand in hand, that we get finally if we assemble a movement and there were three or four people working on that movement, that they all do the same uh uh decoration? I mean beveling is beveling, but beveling is I mean we can have a conversation for at least a day which should be the which is the perfect beveling. But from our perspective that's maybe the the the the biggest challenge. I mean building up a business where there's a lot of human work involved, it's not that easy. So it's not like just pressing enter and uh let the machine run instead of twelve or twenty four hours. I mean the the the the production side is not a huge challenge. There is a challenge, but it's not the biggest challenge. The biggest challenge is as you mentioned, finding people, train people, keep the same philosophy, keep the spirit of you know, willing to improve, willing to find new technologies, to find new things, this is the this maybe the from for my side, this is the biggest, definitely the biggest the biggest challenge when it comes to watchmaking. to to create a a team which is dynamic enough to to improve, to grow, and uh that's that's uh that's a challenge, yeah.
Andy Hoffman And what about on your side, Serge? On the more on the um on the finance and and uh operations side.
Serge Michel It maybe goes into a quite um in the same direction the the issues we have to deal today. So the we have a retail network, we we work close with our retailers and it's also shift within the um the mindset of of retailers to sell an independent brand is a completely different way of selling a product than if you sell a Rolex or one of the bigger brands. It's uh the collectors they have a huge knowledge. So this is what what they have to deal with. So for us as we to select the white partners who understand the philosophy of independent brands, the philosophy of Arminstrom, to be able to uh to uh talk about the brand and to to bring all the knowledge about the technology of resonance. So this is what we what we uh have to deal at the moment, is to select the right partners. There is partners. I mean, there's a lot of great examples out there who are able to shift and retailers, they have the uh dedication to independent watch brands. Um, I think that's one side. Um and then uh the financial part, yes of course if you grow, you grow. Um it's not only that you sell more watches, also that you need to invest in the future. We just briefly talked about the new um uh step uh three or four for our instrument, you building more machines, etc. So it's also a challenge how to handle that part as well. It's always of course.
Andy Hoffman Yes, no doubt. No doubt. And so can you tell us, you know, you're obviously working with your retail partners. Are you selling directly to the end consumers for many of your products? Or is it all through retail?
Serge Michel Well, no, we we have a good we have a good mix. So we we have there is uh within the collectors, there's collectors they want to buy directly at the brand. They're not going to especially within the pens. They like to talk to Claude, to the watchmakers, to walk through the manufactory to have the full experience and we give them the opportunity to buy if they want. Of course, uh today it's probably b 20% it's direct and eighty percent is via retail So we're not pushing the direct sale more than the retail. It's a natural process.
Andy Hoffman Interesting. Yeah. I mean it's certainly a lot of collectors and and buyers are demanding more of that personal and expecting that sort of personal interaction with the brands and it's you know something where the independence obviously excel you know due to um their very nature. So looking forward, I mean we did see you do that uh very interesting minute repeater this year, which was a new complication, I believe, for the brand. Tell us what's next, what we should be looking for coming from Erman Strom in the near and distant future.
Claude Griesler Well luckily there are still some unsolved problems in the watch industry and this is what drives us. We try to be as creative as we can. As Serge mentioned earlier, is the reason why we wanna we wanna grow is also to have more capacity for innovation. That's something we learned now with the in the short history of since we two thousand nine that it innovation is extremely important and also a lot of people they are looking for interesting watch movements which do offer more than what uh the the standard is. But therefore we have enough ideas. I think we have uh uh incredible ideas, but we just need to work on them. You know, it's not that they are obvious solutions that we have in mind, but we have we know that this could maybe solve this problem, this could solve this problem. And uh and then the benefit of resonance is not just having the two balance resynchronized. I mean a lot of complications struggle with torque. We have the double amount of torque. Let's say a resonance chronograph would maybe be the perfect split chronograph. So there is a lot of things to improve and uh there's definitely a lot of uh exciting new calibres coming in the next in the next few years.
Andy Hoffman Very good. Very good. And anything on your side, Serge, to add?
Serge Michel Uh no, I think we we keep ourselves
Claude Griesler um busy with uh with new
Serge Michel developments. as said before, I mean the the we we meet collectors, we we learn from collectors, we like to talk to collectors, uh we like to talk to journalists. It's always great inputs we we are getting from from all over the world and this is how we uh probably also going to shape the brand in the future is with external influences, is with own ideas. Um yeah, as Claude said, there is definitely a uh a bright and a long path in front of of the brand army zone for sure. I'm very convinced.
Andy Hoffman Very good. Well Serge Michel, Claude Grieser, thank you very much for joining us on the business of watches.
Claude Griesler Thank you, Andy. Thank you very much, Andy. Appreciate it.
Andy Hoffman And that's the business of watches for this episode. We hope you enjoyed. Please head on over to Hodinkee.com where you can join the discussion and leave any comments or questions about this episode or the business of watches in general. Who knows? We might even answer your question on a future episode. Thanks for listening and see you next time.