The Business of Watches [026] Christopher Ward CEO Mike France¶
Published on Wed, 20 May 2026 15:00:00 +0000
The Christopher Ward leader lays out the brand's ambitious retail expansion plans in the U.S.; plus Mark Kauzlarich drops by to talk about the Royal Pop launch.
Synopsis¶
This episode of The Business of Watches features two main segments. First, hosts Andy Green and Mark Kaslowski discuss the controversial launch of the Royal Oak collaboration between Audemars Piguet and Swatch—a $400 pocket watch collection that sparked chaos at retail locations worldwide. They analyze the product quality, the launch strategy failures, and the intersection of watch collecting with streetwear "flipping" culture that contributed to the mayhem.
The main interview features Mike France, co-founder and CEO of Christopher Ward, discussing the brand's remarkable growth trajectory and unconventional retail expansion strategy. France details how Christopher Ward has grown from an online direct-to-consumer pioneer to one of the top 50 Swiss watch brands by value, producing around 50,000 watches annually with revenues approaching £50 million. The brand's unique by-appointment showroom model—featuring non-prime locations with 60-70% conversion rates and nearly all new customers—has proven highly profitable while maintaining their signature transparency and value proposition of never charging more than three times manufacturing cost. France also discusses navigating the 2024 tariff crisis that nearly proved existential for the business, their strategic supply chain investments, and ambitious plans for 25-30 U.S. showrooms while pushing toward £100 million in revenue within three years.
Links¶
Transcript¶
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| Andy Green | Welcome to the business of watches, the Hodinky podcast where Horology meets high finance and we go behind the scenes to talk to the executives at the heart of the watch industry. This week we're connecting remotely to the United Kingdom to talk to the head of the biggest watch brand in the UK, Christopher Ward. Mike France is the co-founder of Christopher Ward and the CEO. We talk about the brand which, is kind of a 20-year overnight success story, and we focus on a surprising part of the growth ambitions for the brand in the U.S., retail, or rather, Christopher Ward's unique way of doing retail, which is by appointment showrooms. They've just opened a boutique in Chicago, and there is plenty more to come. But first, I'm joined by my colleague, senior Hodinky editor Mark Koslerich, and we are going to talk about the Royal Pop, the collaboration between Odomar Pi Gay and Swatch. Mark Koslerich, senior editor at Hodinky, who happens to be in Switzerland right now and we had dinner last night. Mark, welcome to the business of watches. How are you? Great. |
| Mark Kaslowski | I'm looking forward to turning this into a a more cuisine focused podcast and we can recap our dinner. But uh maybe w maybe we'll do that after we talk about some watches. |
| Andy Green | Indeed, we will. And so it is Monday, the eighteenth of May, and I went over to the swatch boutique on Rue de Marche here this morning, and they were open again, and at 10 a.m. they were selling more Royal Pop, the Odemar P Gay by Swatch Collaborations. Obviously, we saw the launch over the weekend. You've had a chance to um go hands-on with the um these pocket watches, this collab between Odomar P Gay and Swatch. First, you know, let's talk about the product. You've handled it, you're a pocket watch guy or the pocket watch advocate, I think is what we say here at Hodinki. I mean yeah, what's your sense of this collab? It's um it's quite interesting and in some ways unexpected. |
| Mark Kaslowski | Yeah, there's there's a pun in there somewhere about being in the pocket of the deep state of pocket watches or something. I don't know. Uh we'll have to work on that. But I think, you know, I was pleasantly surprised with the idea of AP leaning into the pocket watch part of this I think obviously there was a a rabid response when they revealed that there was going to be a swatch and AP collaboration. And I think we can get to the response over the weekend, but the response would have been even more outrageous had it been a wristwatch, right? So I think in a lot of ways it was a smart thing for A P to do to hedge away from that a little bit and lean into another part of their history. It's also interesting because the brand has recently spent a record amount of money on an AP pocket watch, the most ever spent on an AP watch, which I think was close to eight million U.S. dollars last fall. |
| Andy Green | Yeah. For one of their purchase. |
| Mark Kaslowski | Big purchase and one that I know I was told uh required extra uh funds from the board and and everything to make this happen. And so there there is been buzz around pocket watches recently, which is maybe a whole separate topic. There's also been buzz around AP pocket watches, but it's also just a good way to maintain a level of interest in the brand without going too close to the sun of making a royal oak and a bioceramic case. The watches themselves, I think, are actually pretty impressive. There's been a couple negative comments as there are with anything about uh people thinking that they didn't go far enough with the quality. I think when you get them in your hand, they're impressively light, they're impressively robust in terms of popping these these watches in and out of what Swatch calls the cages that the the lanyards are attached to. And and so the the feel in the hand is actually pretty solid. But then you know they created an entirely new movement for these watches. It's a manually wound movement. |
| Andy Green | Yeah. It's a new system fifty-one manual wind movement, which is you know significant, right? I mean, um we |
| Mark Kaslowski | Look, I mean I think the the gold standard for winding a watch is is fully deforward simplicity. We're we're not getting that at at a $400 price point, right? Um I I also think that that's one of the hard things right now for anybody is is contextualizing their expectations going in to anything. You get a lot of people looking at a $5,000 watch or a $1,000 watch and saying, well, it's not as good as a $50,000 watch. Well, you know, let's keep the context of what we're we're dealing with. It's a bioceramic, which is, you know, this watch would like to remind you is not technically plastic. It is, I think, 30% plant-based plastic. But um the, you know, the feel of the winding of this manual movement is is actually pretty cool. It it's not the again, the most robust feeling thing. You're you're talking about a bio ceramic crown |
| Andy Green | and it's you have to |
| Mark Kaslowski | turn it quite a bit to move the hands and stuff, but you do get you do get a click out of it. You can feel the wine, you can feel the tension, and then on the case back, you you have first of all sapphire crystal on the front and back, which is kind of crazy with anti-reflective coating. And you can see the barrel wind, you can see the s the spring disappear and the main spring and so that's how you know that it's fully wound and um and then just I think the biggest thing that sort of blew me away is again, you're talking about bioceramic and the the dial is is stamped out of the same material. You get that petite tapissery like texture on the dial in a way that I impressed even people that I spoke to at AP. Like the the amount of tension to detail on all of these watches, again for the price point, and I think even above the price point would be really impressive. But these are still niche products. They're four hundred dollar products that are not gonna be easily worn on the wrist or any any other way. And so I think it's been kind of incredible to see the response over the weekend for for such such a niche |
| Andy Green | Yeah. I mean let's talk about this. You know, I mean I think uh a lot of the collective conclusions of you know before the launch was that you know this was a you know pretty graceful way for Odomar Pi Gay to do a collaboration with Swatch in that they they were doing a pocket watch which obviously can reference um Royal Oak pocket watches of old. And as you mentioned, there's plenty of tradition with uh AP doing pocket watches and without sort of, you know, as you say, flying too close to the sun here. But the launch at some 220 stores, I think it was around the world. A lot of those, you know, people started lining up days before. And by the time the launch happened, there was a bit of chaos. There was a lot of police present um in some places, and at least at twenty locations, you know, from Asia uh to Europe to North America, you know, we saw them stores being shut down and um no watches being sold in the Middle East as well. We saw that at the Dubai Mall. So, you know, was this launch um should should Swatch have handled this launch diffederently? Should they have uh done it online and not in person? Obviously, you know, selling the these collaborations in person, making the spectacle, I mean it's part of the you know, uh messaging that that SWATS has um has been doing since the uh Moon Swatch in twenty twenty two. But yeah, what what what do we make of the of the launch, which wasn't you know, so smooth. |
| Mark Kaslowski | Yeah, I think it's um it's a difficult topic, right? I think I've seen a lot of fingers pointed online. I've seen a lot of people um I think rightfully get a little defensive about how it's reflected on the watch community. I would hate to say that the watch community takes any responsibility because I do think that there is a huge portion of this that is part of this new sort of not new but new to the watch world flipping culture, the things that we've seen in sneakerhead culture and and sort of this hype-beast streetwear space where people line up and and get in line and get pushy and try to flip coveted shoes or clothing or whatever it is. Um I think we're seeing that come over to the watch space and it's it's disappointing to see. Honestly, I think the way that it was communicated in advance, um I think it would have been worse had we not known that this was pocket watches. I think we would have seen a huge a huge uh increase in the number of people and and the the fighting and I mean I mean it really was pr pretty terrible scene in a lot of places and it's not as though one country had it under control or better or worse. I mean, it was worldwide. And and I think the the real way that I've seen a lot of people say, okay, well, what about armbands? Okay, well at least armbands you couldn't easily get on and off and you could tell everybody to leave. But I I think there's a lot of issues. The the obvious answer here is these need to be available online uh relatively quickly uh before before uh stores start selling them, I think. Some stores might not be able to sell them until they're online because you're just gonna run into the same situation over and over. I think that's that's the first solution, but I don't know that this couldn't have been imagined that there would be some sort of uh intense response. And so I'm I'm curious how it it ended up going as far as it did without some sort of other plan. Aaron Powell |
| Andy Green | Yeah, no, it's kind of strange. I mean, you know, I covered here in Geneva, I covered the Moon Swatch launch in March 2022, and you know, there were similar tensions. There are obviously some people there looking to flip the watches, but at the same time, you know, the the lineup and the crowd was full of a whole bunch of watch people that uh that I knew and recognized and and you know I get the sense in this case that you know the crowds at least in some cases you know um were purely there for that you know um financial arbitrage opportunity. Obviously we see some of these pieces um listed on eBay or local auction sites and you know into the thousands, uh multiple thousands of uh of dollars uh or Frank's so you know obviously there is some opportunity there to do that. At the same time though, yeah, I mean, you know, Oudemar Piquet is a different brand than Omega or even BlancPan. And yeah, I mean, you know, this is a brand that exists in popular culture. Plenty of hip-hop stars, or just, you know, famous people are known to, you know, Bad Bunny were a we're a a a royal oak at the at the Super Bowl halftime show, which I think he wrote about. Um yeah, I mean, you know, this is a brand and a watch at a different level than you know the other collabs that we've seen previously. |
| Mark Kaslowski | Yeah, I don't you know, again I what I was trying to get at is I I don't know that there's a single place that you can point the finger. I don't want people to think that I I think that the the watch community is is responsible and we've worked people up into a lather. I you know, I I do wonder we had a lot of attention on that story and I do stand by the fact that it is newsworthy. Um, you know, it is uh regardless of the response um over the weekend, this was going to be the the biggest watch news in the world this year, uh, because it it speaks to so many people outside of the watch community, and that's our responsibility as journalists is to cover that and try to bring that perspective, which I tried to do in my my second story, which was give my personal perspective on handling the watches and contextualize it for what it means for the for the broader world, the non- the non-watch world. But I I do think that it does seem like a huge portion of this, you know, unfortunate situation was really due to that, that non-watch community. I mean, I nobody that I really uh spoke to in the watch world was interested in waiting in line uh overnight for multiple nights to to get a watch that they understood was a not limited production, not limited edition, maybe limited by scope of time or something. But there there are other opportunities to get this and it's not that big of a deal to be fighting other people or wasting your your days getting, but for a portion of the broader uh world who is like you say exposed to AP as a luxury object, not necessarily a horological curiosity. I can I can understand the draw, and I think that is a big part of why we got here. I just I I personally didn't expect it to be uh that intense, but at the same time with hindsight, then you're immediately thinking, well, shouldn't we have expected something like this? Shouldn't shouldn't the the watchworld, shouldn't retailers and and the the leaseholders and the cities and stuff been more prepared, but I I also th I feel bad for some of these people because I don't think anybody necessarily expected to be signing up for this um on a random Saturday. |
| Andy Green | No, exactly. And we'll see, you know, how this progresses. As I say, you know, I I I was um at the Geneva boutique this morning at ten A. M. that's on a Monday, and you know, yeah, there was a there was a queue again and There wasn't police there this morning. There were lots of police there on Saturday, and you know, they were able to open and and sell a few watches. Whether or not this works in other locations remains to be seen. But indeed, yeah, I mean, you know, um AP has said this is a you know one time collab where there it's not going to, you know, be a an ongoing series like we saw with the moonswatch, but at the same time it's gonna be available for for months and months. And so there'll be lots of opportunity um to buy these pieces um for those who are interested. So yeah, it is a certainly a newsworthy situation and an interesting situation. Um anything else that you w you know, wanted to add on the um Royal Pop, the AP by Swatch collaboration at this point? I mean it's still early days. |
| Mark Kaslowski | Yeah, I think my my only real hope is that we can uh get a little bit of a distance from the reaction over the weekend to get back to the statement that I had in my story, my hands-on story with the watch, which is I mean, these these are fun objects. I I know some people th thought that I was uh a little repetitive in saying that, but I really did believe it when I saw it in person and wanted to drive that home is that these are sorta supposed to be lighthearted and fun things and hopefully with some some time and some distance and some more availability and maybe uh changes in how they're distributed, we can get back to enjoying the fact that they're they're really fun and pretty creative approaches to to a collaboration. |
| Andy Green | Very well Mark. Yeah, good stuff. Thank you so much for uh joining us on the business of watches this week. And now we will throw it to our conversation with Mike France, the CEO of Christopher Ward Welcome to Mike France, the CEO and co-founder of Christopher Ward, now one of the fifty biggest Swiss made watch brands and among the fastest growing. Welcome Mike France, CEO of Christopher Ward to the business of watches. |
| Mike France | Thank you, Andy, and thank you for having me. Yeah. |
| Andy Green | Um Christopher Ward has been a trailblazer, is one of the pioneers in online direct-to-consumer sales, but in the past eighteen months, you're making some significant moves in in retail, and as we speak, you're announcing a new buy-apointment showroom in Chicago. This is your seventh new retail location. Talk to me about the the the strategy for these retail boutiques, buy appointment only, that you're doing uh in the UK and in the US. |
| Mike France | Sure. Um I suppose the genesis really of these um goes back a long time, believe it or believe it not. Um in our um old uh head office in Maidenhead, we opened a showroom in the front room back in twenty twelve, something like that. Essentially the idea was that uh we could um sell some watches in there that would pay for the rent. Um what happened subsequently was that and this we're talking about a very small space, it was three hundred and fifty-six square feet. Um so about the size of most people's front rooms. And it became a bit of a retail legend in that um I this is sort of uh probably overstating it, but uh I've been around retail for a while, as you know, Andine, so I know about sales densities. And um it was by appointment only, and in the final year there, it probably had the highest sales density of any retail format in the UK. Wow. Yeah. I mean I've got no absolute evidence of that, but as I say, knowledge of um densities uh across the UK, including very high-density stores like, say, Marks and Spencer Marble Arch, would indicate |
| Mark Kaslowski | to me that we were right up there. |
| Mike France | And so for a long time, we'd known that there was a real demand for people to uh come to Maidenhead, see and handle the the watches physically. And we had a very, very high it was almost a 100% conversion rate. |
| Andy Green | So if somebody came in and uh well that had made an app Aaron Powell |
| Mike France | Yeah, it was ninety plus percent. Um a lot of that I think was due to particularly um Declan who was the the showroom manager, um uh he was you know a a brilliant sort of um person in the showroom very low pressure um it was a conversation we gave people an hour of of our time sometimes longer sometimes we couldn't get rid of them. But it was a very profitable exercise. And then back in 2019, pre-COVID, I had uh wanted to expand the physical presence. And at that stage I was primarily thinking about um uh an additional London site um rather than the US necessarily but we would test and then we would see uh whether there was uh there was an opportunity outside of Maidenhead. Um then COVID happened um so those plans sort of went on the back burner, then Belcanto happened and we got a bit busy and we had other priorities. Always um in the back of my mind was the opportunity to expand the physical presence of of Christopher Ward. That was also supported by we we have and still had and still do have a phenomenal reaction at um shows that we attend. |
| Andy Green | Sure. We were one of the first |
| Mike France | brands ever to join Wind Up, which is the Worn and Wound uh series of shows in the United States, New York, Chicago, San Francisco, Dallas now indeed. We were always massively encouraged by the reaction we had from our American followers when they could see the watches. And um we, as I say, back in 2019 wanted to expand it. Uh we came out of COVID, had the Bel Canto, came back to the uh the idea of um opening showrooms. The United States by this time was our largest market. At that time it was about forty this is going back to twenty early twenty four, about 40, 40% of our turnover, bigger than the UK, and saw the real growth opportunities for us in the United States market. We'd always had a higher penetration than most British brands in the US market, which I simply put down to the fact that we were probably the first brand, largely through good fortune rather than great strategy. We were the first, certainly the first British brand, but arguably one of the fur one of the first watch brands per se to understand the importance of the online community in terms of the conversations that were going on, even as far back as oh five, oh six um in a subterranean world |
| Andy Green | and that's through your your your Christopher Ward forum |
| Mike France | yeah exactly which has been sort of an |
| Andy Green | integral part of um of the brand's story over the years. |
| Mike France | Exactly. We come across this at that that time, I mean the the the phrase social media hadn't really been coined, but there was this incredible sort of um level of conversation going on between watch fans and us and there were other forums around at the time. Time zone was probably the largest forum at the time. Um we owe a debt to Time Zone because that's where uh the first major post went up proclaiming by a a a Tasmanian now professor of English literature, Dave Malone, that he discovered the best value mechanical watch world the world's ever known, which led to the formulation of the forum when Mike Sandler started ditching people from that um from that forum because he thought we were paying them to post positive things about Chris Wool. Right. We actually didn't even know the forum existed at the time, and certainly I didn't know Michael. We got to know Michael very well when he realized we weren't shysters. That was a an early dawning and an understanding that the this community uh are incre the watch community, people who are interesting watches, are incredibly passionate and interested and want to share and want to discuss uh and they particularly want to discuss us in many ways, i.e. the forum established by by followers, not by us. So we knew that there was a real interest in our brand and a huge interest uh from our American audience, as I say, very early on, the American business, with no marketing other than this conversation going on online became very important to us, became as big as the UK and bigger than the UK very quickly. Which is unusual, but I put it down to this conversation that we were having. What we also know is that when people receive our watches over the course of the last 22 years, if they've never held one and they've bought blind, if you like, uh, online. Norallym the reaction is one of delight and surprise, that it was better than they'd thought. Now they'd pull the trigger because they had read online that Chris Ward watches were decent. They had followed us. People do their research, as you well know, uh before they spend, even if we consider ourselves a a high value proposition, you know, were not cheap. And uh, you know, it's a very considered purchase. And people do their research, hence our line, do your research. But what what we knew is that people um had a very positive reaction to the watches when they receive them, often for the first time. We also saw that, as I say, at shows across the world, but particularly in the United States. So we'd always had this inkling that we could have a direct-to-consumer relationship physically as well as online. And I think it's important that people understand it's still a direct to consumer relationship. We are not opening highly expensive retail boutiques in prime locations on ground floors where for many, many brands they become a marketing expense. It's a it's a way of brand building as much as it is of making money. we wanted to continue those dialogues, have a very different sort of relationship with people, hence by appointments only, sort out time. It allowed us therefore to be thinking about, I mean one Park Street maidenhead is not Park Lane. Yeah believe me. So we had this idea and as you know our economic we we're very careful about our economic model, it has to deliver the profitability we require, but at a time through multiple at selling, we didn't what not we will ever do will uh will disrupt that. So we have to find a retail format that would allow us A the economic model, but B allows to deliver a very different type of relationship. You know, um I still go into some watch boutiques, um I won't name them, but um, you know, the the first thing they seem to look at is the shoes I'm wearing. Um And if I'm wearing churches, they'll probably uh they'll probably take me to the more expensive end of the shop, you know. Right. Watch retail, luxury retail is full of that sort of I think of it as um parent child behaviour. Yeah. We've always striven to have adult to adult relationships with our consumers. You know, that's why we're open and transparent about our business, our model. We try and where we can to take down the fourth wall and allow people in because we think the magic of watchmaking is when you know more about it rather than keeping it a m keeping it a mystery. But that's a per that's our strategy and our our philosophy. |
| Andy Green | That is one of your differentiators for sure. |
| Mike France | And we wanted to tr wanted to continue and indeed enhance that through f physically being able to talk and show to people who are interested in our watches. But we wanted to do it in a cost-effective way, non-prime, where people could enjoy a real attention and be able without pressure selling whatsoever to try on anything they wanted across the entire range. We're led by them. We communicate with them beforehand. They give us a sense of what they're looking at. We prepare that, but we also prepare other things and often people change their mind once they see the width of the the offer or they they handle and feel our watches in the metal. So that led us to two things really. Right. How do we how do we establish a bigger footprint in the United States, per se, anyway. And that led me to it's all business about people. And I had for some time been aware of Michael Pearson, who formerly had been with Bramont, then with Wolf, and then |
| Andy Green | a legend in the in the industry. Indeed. In some ways. |
| Mike France | Indeed. And uh you know, when I uh more most latterly was with Zodiac. He had also spotted us and we met uh mainly at shows and um uh I I say this this believe it or believe it not, but um uh you know at most shows uh the Chris Ward stand is the busiest. Um it just is the way it is. And Michael would uh always wander across and I would always say to him, you should come and work for a proper watch company, mate. And um eventually uh he when I decided we were going to um we were going to extend our footprint in the US, I could think of no better person to lead the charge than Michael. And it was very clear what we wanted him to do, and he was very much up for that, and it was travel the US to begin with, going into more smaller venues, whether they be red bars or other watch groups, uh of which as you will know, Andy, there are literally thousands in the United States. Yes. It's a big task. And this is about taking Christopher Ward to the people. And the first thing, one of the first things I said to him as well is, and I want you to open our first American showroom. He lives in Dallas today. Dallas, as a metropolitan area, is uh in a a is top five metropolitan area in terms of watch turnover in the United States. It is in most categories of product. We already had a pretty big following in Dallas. So it seemed very sensible that Michael set up the first showroom in Dallas. And it fitted what we dis what we Peter Ellis, my co-founder and I went out. We trawled around Dallas. Michael had done his pre-research, he had his views about where it might be. We ended up finding a um north of Dallas site, you know, it's forty minutes outside of downtown Dallas, in a smallish um shopping centre, first floor office, lots of dentists, our neighbors, 850 square feet, the first one in Dallas, decided we'd open it and test what happened. Well, what happened was astonishing, partly because of the people Michael and we employed to to operate. But it was astonishing. The response was astonishing. And the sales were largely incremental. It wasn't um people transferring online from online to uh to Dallas because they lived in Dallas. These were nearly all new customers. |
| Andy Green | And how I mean, how did people find out about I mean, how did you get the word out in this case in Dallas and then it with all the other showrooms you have now in Virginia and Liverpool and the UK and New York and London and now in Chicago. How do you let people know that that you're there and and how it works to make an appointment? Aaron |
| Mike France | Powell we of course employ you know some of the obvious um methods, whether it be um you know paid social, print advertising locally, etc. But the probably the the the prime mover of that is just word of mouth. People were travelling from all over the United States to the Dallas showroom, for instance. It was astonishing. But we have a quite a large database. Often what happens, or uh certainly is still happening, is people who know our brand, who maybe purchased our brand, they'll have a circle of friends. When there's a physical location, if that person has never bought before they'll often come with them for the first time or they'll often suggest that they make an appointment and go and check us out which is a very powerful medium because you're getting the brand is being presented by an advocate, not by us, um, which is always the most powerful route to of marketing. And it grows and grows and grows and they then have friends and they then have friends and they then have friends. Um so it's a mixture, but it's largely driven by I think at in the beginning, in the early stages of a showroom opening, by the followers that we have, um, who encourage others who aren't as familiar with the brand to go and see us and feel us and see that it's real um as opposed to just Aaron |
| Andy Green | Powell And you you know and some of your information you talk about some stats. I mean you you say that generally it you know across these six and now I guess hopefully um it will continue with your seventh showroom in Chicago, but you know, you say that seventy percent of the customers that um make appointments are new to the brand, then you have conversion rates of of something like sixty to seventy percent, um at least after a little while. And there are also that all these showrooms are profitable. Yeah, I mean is is this a new way of of selling watches? |
| Mike France | Um relatively I think it's a paradigm shift. And it doesn't suit everybody. I mean, um, I think it's embedded in this the type of brand we are, Andy, and this relationship and this engagement that we have, and the fact that we engage in the type of conversation with people where they they feel no pressure to buy and there's nothing behind glass. Um you you're a you know you can you can wander round you can it's very interesting some of the differences between UK and US customers as well. |
| Andy Green | Talk about that. What's the what are what are the differences that you you're finding so far in your retail experience? |
| Mike France | Aaron Powell One of the most um interesting and and to some extent amusing ones um is um the Brits, by and large, they make an appointment, they're pretty clear in their own minds what they're looking to buy. As I say, they will move once we've shown them other things sometimes. But it's uh a conversation only and purely about watches. In the US, what's interesting is that that people will arrive in the showroom and they won't immediately necessarily want to talk about watches. They present themselves. And so you're engaging firstly in sometimes their life story, uh, or certainly their um their rationale for being interested in watches. So they they're much more open to sharing elements of themselves with us in the showrooms. So that leads to a y y you have to be a good listener. You have to tell the story, of course, when it's the appropriate time, but you have to listen first and you have to judge how that person wants the story to be told to them and how they want watches presented to them. And I have to say, it's I think this is um well i it's not necessarily unique. But you don't have that many retail formats that are about appointments. So you've made a commitment in the first place. You've made that appointment. And therefore you're not going to to want have it last five minutes. You know, it's not as quick scout around a boutique, you know, don't quite like the look of whatever's on sale, don't like the looks I'm getting from some of the staff, um, et cetera, et cetera, have been ignored or been No, it's you've decided that you're going to engage. And then the quality of engagement is down to us to make sure that it's what you expect it to be. So these people become I mean I, it's overstating it that they're not friends as such in in the in the real sense of the word of friendship, but they do feel connected, and we feel connected to them, and I think one of the reasons for the such high levels of conversion that we're enjoying is down to that level of connection that the guys and the girls that run our showrooms are able to have with these people. And we discovered that there is a sort of an elixir for the sort of people that we want to employ in our showrooms. And it's not your typical watch salesperson. |
| Andy Green | It's interesting though when you talk about, you know, that community obviously that you create and and and that different retail experience. Is your customer that you're finding that are coming to these showrooms and having these um high rates of of transaction. What kind of watch collector or watch experience do they generally have and and how does that translate from the UK to the U.S. Is it much different? But I mean are these, you know, serious collectors who Aaron Powell |
| Mike France | is probably hard to pin down. Uh but there are some trends here. In our showrooms, the average transaction value is higher. Yeah. There is a propensity towards the higher end of our collection. So that which we call the attelier collection, which incorporates things like the Loco, Belcanto, the new true GMT, we tend to sell more of those in our showrooms than we do online. It's not by a factor of two or three times, it but it's a noticeable shift up the scale. Yeah. But we also do have, of course, people who are, you know, buying uh either into the brand for the very first time, but also into watch collecting for the very first time. Or they're moving from quartz to mechanical, or they have a very small collection and they're looking. So we have the full gamut of people, but there is definitely a tendency to higher priced, more complicated watches. Ergo, we probably we almost we know we we we entertain a greater number of serious collectors, if you like, in our showrooms than probably we do online. |
| Andy Green | That's interesting. It makes sense, I suppose, as there's that higher level of engagement obviously and and indeed a higher um value product for sure. And you know, just last on retail, I mean, is this the then model going forward? Could Christopher Ward ever could we ever see you in in multi-brand retail, traditional retail? I mean is that out of the question? |
| Mike France | No, uh as I've said before, if um watches of Switzerland want to um throw into touch their uh their usual margin requirements and uh want to take a very small margin on our uh on on our watchers that allows us to continue with our um our level of profitability at a times three uh multiple, then we'll be worldwide with them tomorrow. Um the chances of that happening, I think, are relatively small. And we do think there's a um a pretty sizable opportunity for us to enlarge the footprint of show our own showrooms. And to be perfectly honest, the type of experience that we want to deliver to our customers, I don't think can be delivered by a third party. |
| Andy Green | And so then talk about you know where you you know strategy wise see that increased footprint |
| Mike France | The answer is yes to all of those questions in a sense. Um we do see the the the the major focus is um currently on the United States and we've identified um the markets we believe that we can have a Christian forward showroom in. All of this is born from our own cash flow at the moment, so um we're um you know we're probably talking about I don't know well I do know, but I'm not sure how much I'm gonna share. Share away, mate. Um I've said it before to people, but probably we think um between twenty-five and thirty showrooms in the US is is maybe where we'll top out. Um and you can work out the major metropolitan areas yourself where |
| Andy Green | How long would it take you to get to that level, do you think? |
| Mike France | If we're opening at a rate of you know five five plus uh stores a year, that would be a good target to go for. Um and some of it is is just about our ability to manage that growth um and retain the experience and the quality of what we're trying to deliver. Um some of it's about finding the right sites, employing the right people. All of those things, you know, fast growth is very possible as long as you've got the cash to do it. You know, they're very profitable for us. So um, you know, we we we we would aim to open more more rapidly if we could, but we're also conscious that it quality comes first. And so I'd rather that we made sure, as we are doing, um, that the experience was as good as it's been thus far all the way through. And I've been involved in retail all my life and Peter and I between us have probably opened a thousand stores. One of the scars on your back that you uh you you learn in that sort of um career is uh you can overexpand too quickly uh and the quality declines if you're not careful. So we've got enough scars on our back to hopefully uh make sure that we don't do that. Aaron Powell |
| Andy Green | And have you made have you made any you know missteps or mistakes so far with these six I mean, you know, you you I think the the numbers use are annual revenues averaging between one and a half million pounds and five million pounds. You know, have you have you got the location or the some of the um strategy wrong in any places or they've all worked? |
| Mike France | Not so far Andy, but we will. Uh we'll we'll have we'll make mistakes. We will. I mean it's you know, there's no business on earth that uh doesn't have a misstep. And actually the first misstep will probably be the best learning we have. Um but so far not and of course we aim not to. Uh and I say with um with people like Michael um and his team um on the ground, you know, doing this uh doing this remotely, purely remotely would be much more difficult. Uh and we're very careful um in terms of we're building a profile up of the sort of spaces and the sort of areas that we think work for us. Um it's different in a New York versus a um Virginia, and we get far more passing traffic in Green Street in Soho um than we will in Dallas, for instance. That's in that's that that's pretty obvious. Um but we will make mistakes. I mean and and I I actually want us to make some mistakes uh because we're not we won't be trying hard enough if we don't uh and I want us to try very hard. But we see this as a one of the one of the |
| Andy Green | It's interesting. And so at this point, um I presume it's still a quite a can you give us any sense of of um uh your overall sales, what retail accounts for? |
| Mike France | You know, last last year um you |
| Mike France | know we're we're we're headed towards the fifty million mark. Um that's pounds sterling. Um so this this year, um the financial year we're in now, which ends next March. I mean, long way to go, who knows what happens in any one financial year these days. So if you if you're able to predict that, uh let me know, will you, Andy? |
| Andy Green | We'll do. Uh yeah, thank you. I don't want to |
| Mike France | live through another uh twenty twenty-five and um you can only have so many liberation days, can't you? |
| Mark Kaslowski | So we feel fully liberated now, |
| Mike France | I have to say. Um so subject to the geopolitical climate um and uh and um tariffs, um and the ever changing landscape that they provide us all with, y we would expect uh having had a uh a I mean I'm this is quite serious stuff now, you know, twenty five when on April the second um we saw Switzerland uh on the the board that he was holding up um uh with a very large uh I think at that stage it was thirty percent um that he was going to uh impose on Switzerland. It turned out he imposed thirty nine percent. |
| Andy Green | Which is on top of the five percent that already |
| Mike France | existed. So um but overnight, because we're a direct to consumer brand and we didn't therefore hold stock already in the United States, everything from day zero was going through at a forty-four percent increase in price. Or we absorb all of it, in which case we go bust very quickly. Existential threat to what was then fifty percent and rising above business. Trevor |
| Andy Green | Burrus So you yeah, you you had to um uh make some some moves in terms of your structure uh in the US and you um uh changed the way that you distribute uh the watches there and going through your own entity so you're able to utilize transfer pricing. |
| Mike France | Spot on. I mean we were fortunate in the we'd set up CW Inc. a long time ago. If we hadn't set it up, we wouldn't there's a chance we we wouldn't be here today, um literally. It's that big a threat it posed to us. But the finance team, our um CFO Joe Keach was magnificent in uh this and um the he and the finance team, you know, worked through um um how we would move a lot of the cost base genuinely, we were thinking about this anyway, to the US, move the pro a large chunk of the profit towards the US, which allowed us to affect a cost plus as opposed to a full selling price that would attract duty. And then we have a very close relationship with DHL. In fact, um we're one of the top two or three exporters by value into the United States from the UK. Because all of our watches come from Switzerland into the UK to be distributed across the world. Right. Um so we've always had always had a very close relationship with them. They magnificently. And we'd been working with them on a bulk shipment break it down in the US into individual parcels process with them for about 12 months. But we had to accelerate it uh rapidly, and we managed to do that in the space of um a month, um, something that would normally take another six or seven months to have uh got to that position. And fantastic support from them. And so that reduced the distribution costs as well. So a whole melange of activity, the like of which I don't wish to go through this year um because it was uh incredibly time consuming, uh energy consuming um and cost consuming. |
| Andy Green | And and just to be clear, so so what percentage do you think now retail accounts for your sales and what's the goal. And then we'll continue to talk about maintaining your profitability margin because you've raised prices this year as well. |
| Mike France | Yeah, yeah. Um for the first time in two years. |
| Andy Green | Mm and by an average |
| Mike France | of around five and a half to six percent over the course of two years against a market backdrop probably averaging over the same period price increases on like for like products of probably fifteen to eighteen percent. |
| Andy Green | What were the I mean if you can be specific, what were the specific sort of drivers, pressures there? Was it the was it the franc, um just in inflation in general, is it the tariffs? |
| Mike France | No, and so that was a a good um a good portion of uh of the to six per cent. Um then there were inevitably um over the course of two years uh our supply base um who had absorbed a lot of potential cost price increases with us that they may have applied to other people because our volumes were going up. So you very kindly reminded me that we uh reached the top fifty in value terms in terms of Swiss watch brands. Um in volume terms we're a you know, we're about twenty sixth. Right. Um about |
| Andy Green | forty thousand watches, is that right? Uh |
| Mike France | yeah, this this this year it was just uh about forty three, forty four thousand. Current year we'll breach fifty. So, you know, and on some of our larger platforms, um such as Trident, such as Sealander, we're talking serious numbers now. So in terms of our supply base, we're uh working with them, but I mean they we spent a lot of time in the recent past um sharing with them our plans and our plans for them within our plans. And you know, there aren't that many um watch brands that are able to project growth at the rate that we're project A to have achieved growth over the past three or four years that we've achieved and also to potentially project growth. You will know only too well. I mean, it's one of my big concerns for the industry in general. Whilst values are going up, volumes continue to decline. That is potentially an existential threat of its own for the watch industry in Switzerland because uh if the supply base vanishes, there is no industry. And so I think it's a very major concern. |
| Andy Green | I saw you um a couple of years ago. You just made the investment in uh Palozzo, uh 20% um stake in their their uh sort of component supplier, metal um uh machinist manufacturer. Uh you know, how has that investment um worked out in terms of um uh your your supply chain and your and your components acquisitions and is it something we might see more of? |
| Mike France | Yeah, I mean we couldn't uh for instance have um launched the loco in the way that we were able to do so without Paul Uzzo's help. We've got things uh in train at the moment that may not come to fruition until tw late twenty seven So yeah, but they're um relatively speaking, they're a fairly minor part of our entire supply chain. And it's it's sharing with and um working with those suppliers that has really enabled us to keep our and the fact that we are this high growth watch brand at the moment, fingers crossed, um, and the level of consistency, we don't flit from supplier to supplier, we're very loyal. In an industry that isn't always that way. Um and uh feast and famine, as you will know um over the years, is is is one of the real bug buzz of any supply base and any supplier. Um and the watch industry has a tendency to overload when things are good and then find itself usually overstocked and then contracts get cancelled. And of course nobody that's not the way, the most efficient way to run a supplier, yeah, a manufacturer. So we try as best we can to be consistent, uh to be open and transparent with our suppliers, and they have been enormously helpful. Uh, they understand what we're trying to achieve in terms of the value proposition. But eventually and they have their own margins to uh to to to work towards. But you know, to have a overall price increase on like for like products of six percent over a two year period when cost inflation, whether it be through currency or um or or material cost increases, uh or labour cost increases, I think isn't bad. Aaron Powell |
| Andy Green | No doubt. And so your, you know, part of that strategy is being very sort of open and and clear and and sort of forward planning with these um uh your your suppliers and and um in terms of your growth. So I think Morgan Stanley um you know suggested that you're you had fifty percent growth in sales from twenty twenty-four? Um but I mean what kind of growth are we yeah are you projecting? And is that is that is that number correct? |
| Mike France | Yeah, I mean since twenty I mean you we've troubled |
| Mike France | more than troubled in size since twenty two. |
| Mike France | And uh whilst uh the |
| Mike France | the last financial year will uh not show the same, it's obviously still growth, but because of um the tariff situation that we've discussed, um you know that that uh that deflated uh the our American sales for a while. They're now back and uh stronger than ever. So this year we will get back to our normal, we hope, our normal sales trajectory. Certainly the um the launch um only a week ago of the new Sea Landers, if that's anything to go by, that's a really great start to the year. But you know, as I say, you can't A, you can never be sure these days what's going to happen. Um but if if it's a stable, um a relatively stable environment, then we would expect a a very strong year again this year, you know, with the with the US market being um more than fifty percent of our business. |
| Andy Green | Hmm. Interesting. Interesting. And I mean, yeah, well I mean what's your sense of the US market? It's where the growth is, it's where all the brands are many brands are focusing their attention these days. What is your sense of the strength of the of the US consumer and the growth in premium watches? |
| Mike France | So for us, and I I'm no reading other people's uh reports and uh it's an incredibly robust market um and a uh and still growing. |
| Andy Green | I think the the worry I would have for the |
| Mike France | American market uh is um uh what happens to AI uh businesses uh and crypto. So a |
| Mike France | lot of growth, particularly at the high end |
| Mike France | of watches, I think is being driven by those in the tech industry, um, where salaries, bonuses, shares, et cetera, are fueling a you know, h huge um purchasing patterns. Um also crypto. If for us, um well so I w I wouldn't want that necessarily to happen for the entire industry. Um if there was a deflationary element to uh AI shares, which I personally think will happen at some point. You're not |
| Andy Green | alone in that prediction. No, |
| Mike France | exactly. I don't I don't think it marks me out as some sort of searsayer particularly But you let's assume that at some point, who knows when, but at some point there's going to the bubble, if it doesn't burst and it's if it's if it's not a dot-com situation of the turn of the century, then I think it will deflate or it shouldn't it will deflate. I think that will have an |
| Mike France | impact. For us, um |
| Mike France | that may be beneficial, conversely, |
| Mike France | because um people tend |
| Mike France | to buy down the scale. I would be particularly concerned if I was a brand that had been hiking prices significantly in at the hyper luxury level. Which I frankly, again, as we discussed in terms of volume, I think is reaching levels which need to be seriously looked at. Um it was one of the trends that I picked up in um at Watches and Wonders you mentioned earlier. Um you know, it it's it's I look at some watches, I know we know r you know roughly the cost of these watches. |
| Andy Green | In terms of tariffs, are you accounting for the the you know the ten percent or the fifty what are you paying right now, actually? Is it is it is it ten percent? Uh is it fifteen percent? Yeah, fifteen. And then are you trying to um get that refund for what you uh did pay into that following the Supreme Court ruling? And how much might that that be? |
| Mike France | I won't tell you precisely, but it's in the millions. It's in the million. Yeah. Um so um um we and about uh I think in the first day we and another three hundred and fifty eight thousand companies applied. And that was the first day. Um yes, we are. And um in fairness to the administration, at the moment everything seems to be as they said it would be. We have had no refunds. Um, nobody's had any refunds yet. But the process is working exactly as they said it would. And unless something or somebody changes something, which is always possible, uh we and uh many, many hundreds of thousands of other businesses are hopeful that um the damage some of the damage that was done last year um will be undone by uh the repayment of um some of these things. But the costs we incurred, never mind the the tariff cost, the costs we incurred as a business to do what we had to do to um survive during that period, i.e. A the lost sales, because it doesn't account for the sales you lost. |
| Andy Green | Of course. Yeah. Your prices go up forty percent. |
| Mike France | In that period. We were roughly taking about um ninety thousand dollars a day. Yeah. And it went down overnight to ten thousand dollars a day. |
| Andy Green | Wow. Yeah. After April uh second. Yeah. So that that is it that is indeed an existential threat. And when did it recover and by how much? |
| Mike France | The biggest um drop um was um uh from July when he applied the full the full amount. And that's when we triggered all of the exercises that we spoke about earlier. And so for around about a month or five weeks or so before we got everything in place, um and we were then able to go back to around about f you know, two to exactly the fifteen percent which had been applied previously, and the sales recovered pretty much to where they'd been before, that four or five week period um was serious stuff. And that's why, as I say, the the team here and and partners like DHL were magnificent. But that's what we were contending with. And that's what I sus I think most people have no and why would they have no concept of what those decisions being taken in um in DC were having on um businesses like ours. Aaron Powell |
| Andy Green | On certain industries indeed, yeah. And it was i i as you say, it was existential. Aaron Powell |
| Mike France | But I'm pleased to say, you know, the sales once we did what we did recovered almost immediately uh and have continued to grow. So as I say, we'll take the hit. Some of it we'll hopefully get back um this year, but we'll we'll we'll take the hit in um in the last financial year, but recover that and more, we hope this year. Aaron Powell |
| Andy Green | And so negative growth then in in 20 uh no |
| Mike France | no no no no still positive. |
| Mike France | It's just not to the the level it was uh the previous two |
| Mike France | years. So and the US grew uh double |
| Mike France | digits, so you know I mean so interesting. But not the level uh that we had um we were headed towards uh and likely to achieve it it undermined that. But still growth and growing very, very, very rapidly at the moment. Aaron Powell |
| Andy Green | And as I say, yeah, I mean can you give us a sense then, you know, in terms of your long-ter strategmy, how much you you know uh you think that retail, your your you know very specific by appointment only retail will account for your sales as you say it's higher higher um uh purchases uh generally in those in those stores, yeah. |
| Mike France | Yeah, it depends um over time entirely as we said before how many um how many of these stores we're able |
| Mike France | to open. But um we've got we've |
| Mike France | got a couple of staging posts that are |
| Mike France | important to us. Uh I've long |
| Mike France | said uh I think um Chris Ward is a quarter of a billion pounds sterling brand, just waiting to um arrive at that point. Now that's going to take a a little while. But the first staging point is a hundred million. |
| Andy Green | Mm-hmm. Um so around about a |
| Mike France | hundred and forty million US and we would hope to be hitting that hundred million within the next um two to three years. |
| Andy Green | Okay. From around fifty million now. |
| Mike France | Yeah. Yeah. Uh well it's fifty million sterling, you know, will hopefully will grow beyond fifty million this year, which as I say, looks looks likely, provided everything uh uh everything remains reasonably stable. And of course because most of the sales, as we said earlier, from our showrooms |
| Mike France | are incremental, um then |
| Mike France | the more we can open, the faster we can open them successfully and profitably and manage them whilst delivering the same quality of experience, that will determine essentially how we go. But we're still growing online as well. It's not uh it's not as if um it 'cause it's product first. It's you know, it's always product first with us. And you know, I've got the benefit of knowing what the pipeline looks like. And I have to say, you know, the um the the product development team um uh it's it's I'm more Aaron Powell |
| Andy Green | Well that's interesting. I mean because you've you know you've done some extra you know beginning back with the Belcanto, which I think we would both uh you would you have certainly said I mean it' as t absolute game changer for the brand in terms of, you know, visibility and sort of people looking at the brand and what you could do. You've just done you know, you followed that up with the loco. Um there's been, you know, the true GMT that you um uh did earlier this year bringing uh actu you know a a um flyer gmt um to you know in-house to the line and then you've you know refined and updated the sealander collection. Yeah. I mean you know,, where will you know, give us a a sense of where you're going in terms of of of product? Is it is it should we expect, you know, more of the of the Belcanto um sort of game changer kind of um products or or upgrades and shifts to existing lines? |
| Mike France | Both. And therefore hopefully surprise our followers. It's um but both ends of these spectrum are equally important to us. I mean we have you know Sealander uh acquires us more new customers in absolute numbers than any other arena. You know, the Sealander GMT is our number one recruitment tool, if you like, into the brand. Um and you know, that's why it's such an last week was such an important launch for us, even though it's at what most people would well it is at our entry level. But as you know, Andy, we've talked about it before, we we set up on a not on the usual model. Um we don't play by the same rules in terms of range construction or pricing construction or platform construction. We're able to move from entry-level sea landers through to you know highly sophisticated um complications and uh we want to continue to push at both ends. So you know we've got and we've got in development in we've got some uh astonishing things if they come to fruition ultimately at both ends of the scale. Um particularly I think uh the next I think there are this |
| Mike France | this this autumn we'll see some really |
| Mike France | um outstanding launches. Um I'm very, very optimistic about uh this autumn. And as I say, as we look at twenty-seven-28, there may be, and I I don't want to be a hostage to fortune here, because you just never know. But we've been working on something for two and a half years now that if we pull it off, you know, we'll be one of hopefully could be one of those moments again. Um but hey, you know, we'll we'll we don't but I I I honestly I I am uh uh uh uh it is a very exciting time and uh uh genuinely, genuinely, and I've been around a while, you know. Um I can't remember feeling as excited and as positive about anything, not just in Christopher Ward's world that you know, since tw 2004, but in my entire career, I'm more excited now about what we have ahead of us than anything that's been delivered so far. |
| Andy Green | Product wise, indeed. Well that's um quite something. And I mean, yeah, when I think about your average price point, um just to understand, I think Morgan Stanley estimates around thirteen hundred Swiss francs. While continuing to deliver the value proposition of not um costing more than three times your cost, we will expect some some higher priced, higher end um complications and models in uh in the future. You'll you'll be moving upscale uh at some ends of the spectrum. |
| Mike France | Yeah, absolutely. Um you know so um but also expect some you know |
| Mike France | enhancements of uh of of entry level as well um and new products at that level and mid-level as well. It's the it's the it's the automotive model, it's not the w you know, we we don't |
| Mike France | know which lane we're in sometimes because we don't recognize the lane. |
| Mike France | So um we'll swim in any lane we want. And um I think that's one of the it's one of the freedoms the the the brand has that many brands, particularly those that are in larger groups just don't have they can't swim outside their lane. Um we delight in swimming outside our lane. Um and um it seems so far some people also like us swimming outside our lane as well. Aaron |
| Andy Green | Powell And last thing, I mean then would does that would you ever consider a sub brand or, you know, at at either end of the spectrum? Uh or do you want everything to exist within the Christopher Ward name? |
| Mike France | Uh the answer is no. Um you know if if we're if we're our brand is uh it's it's hard enough to build a single brand and be true to it over time and keep focused on it. It is possible to develop sub brands. Within our platforms, I s we have the sub brands if you like that uh matter to us under this Chris Ward umbrella. So Tridents has become a very recognized dive watch brand in its own right. Sea Lander as an adventure watch brand. You know, sound through Belcanto is is something that we begun to earn. We've become, I'd like to believe, renowned for case construction. You know, the um the light catcher case, we very early on, you know, back ten years, eleven years ago now, um, we we decided that we wanted to really become expert at um case design and do something that the industry wasn't because most of it is slabsided and very little time and attention, which is a cost issue and I understand it. I understand why people go slabsided. Um but we chose the we chose the zigwin or the Zagged on on that sense. You know, Loom, we're becoming renowned for our Lumier collection, our approach to Luminosity and Watches, which is one of the key things that um watch fans love about any watch. We work with a small family-owned business um that um that has developed and has the patent on Loom that um only a very few brands are able to use. Um and we're we're one of them. They choose to work with us. You know, they also choose to work with Patek. So at our you know at our sort of price pointing um and our sort of mid luxury level, if you like, yeah, I think we've become the leaders of uh of of the pack in terms of luminosity and watches. And |
| Mike France | there are many things that tha that I |
| Mike France | think we can if we're brave, um, because I think we're absolutely at our best when we're at our boldest, as Tony Blair once said about uh New Labour, but I believe it to be true of us. When we're when we're at our boldest, we're at our best. And we've got some bold we're we're working on some really bold stuff at the moment, which is why I'm so excited. There's more ahead than behind, that's for sure. |
| Andy Green | Great. Well, you know, I've taken up an hour of your time. |
| Mike France | Um I have a million other questions to to |
| Andy Green | ask you, but um I think this was a uh a good focused discussion on Christopher Ward and and we wish you the best of luck for this year. |
| Mike France | Thanks Andy and as a again, thanks for uh |
| Mike France | thanks for having me. It was my pleasure. |
| Andy Green | And that's the business of watches for this episode. We hope you enjoyed. Please head on over to hodinky.com where you can join the discussion and leave any comments or questions about this episode or the business of watches in general. Who knows? We might even answer your question on a future episode. Thanks for listening and see you next time. Well, |