Baselworld 2019 Round-Up, Day 2¶
Published on Thu, 21 Mar 2019 23:30:00 +0000
Stephen sits down with James and Cole to reflect on the Tudor Black Bay P01 and take a look back at a day full of cool watches. Listen for reviews of Zenith, Nomos, Tag Heuer, Bulgari and more. Plus, a number of surprise guests drop in to share their thoughts.
Synopsis¶
This podcast episode features the Hodinkee team's final wrap-up of Baselworld 2019, recorded at the end of the trade show after several exhausting days of viewing hundreds of watches. The team includes regular hosts and special guest Joe Thompson, who is attending his 40th consecutive Baselworld. The discussion covers the major watch releases from the show, with particular focus on Grand Seiko and Seiko's offerings. Grand Seiko introduced new hand-wound Spring Drive movements for the 20th anniversary of Spring Drive technology, including both elegant dress watches and a new sports collection called the Tokyo Lion watches. The team debates the brand's pricing strategy, particularly a $70,000+ platinum model, and whether it aligns with Grand Seiko's traditional value proposition. Seiko's reissue of the 6105 diver (the "Apocalypse Now" watch) also generates excitement, with the team appreciating the modern execution of this vintage design.
The second major theme is the existential crisis facing Baselworld itself. Joe Thompson provides extensive business reporting on the show's dramatic decline from 2,109 exhibitors twelve years ago to just 500 this year. The show's parent company MCH Group lost 190 million Swiss francs, and the new management is presenting a secretive reimagined concept for 2020 in a mysterious "Blue Room" that requires NDAs. The fragmentation of the watch industry's trade show calendar—with brands like Swatch Group already departed and others potentially following—creates challenges for both retailers and media coverage. The team reflects emotionally on what could be lost if Baselworld fails: the community, human connections, and annual gathering of the global watch world that has survived for 102 years through wars and the quartz crisis. They express hope that the show can successfully transform itself while preserving the unique cultural heritage and community that makes it valuable beyond just business transactions.
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Transcript¶
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| Unknown | Hey guys, we're here. We're still alive. Barely brains are fried. I mean my brain is never fried. How many watches do you think you guys have each seen over the last like four days? Couple hundred? Maybe not that many. Three hundred and twenty-eight. Yeah I'll say about a hundred and sixty seven. I'll go with one twenty-five. Cool. Uh I'm gonna just go with too many. But I can't I look at a watch now and it just like it looks like the idea of a watch. I like can't even identify it anymore. Do you guys ever need like a watch detox? Yeah, oh yeah, totally. Actually that's why I own my swatch skin. Is for when I need a watch that's like not a watch. Right. Because it's transparent and paper thin and like kind of like barely there. Yeah. So when I need to like not be near watches. You know what it is? It's right cleanser. All right, so we got Jack Forester. Hey everybody. We got Pennington. Hey there. We got Carr Barrett. Hi. And coming soon, Mr. Joe Thompson, who's sitting across the room from us right now. Uh he's gonna come share some thoughts about the future of Basel World uh in a little bit after we get through this year's this year's show. And this is a man who knows Basel World. Uh yeah. Yeah. This is Basel World forty for Mr. Thompson. It's pretty incredible. Wow. And shockingly he's been here s coming since he was two years old. He's only forty two. Yeah, it's amazing. Uh so let's let's jump into it. Uh show's over. We've seen well, for us, show's over. Um, we've seen a lot of things. Uh, one thing we haven't talked about on this show yet, because we were waiting for Mr. Forster. And also their stuff dropped uh twenty-four hours after a lot of the other stuff. Cor |
| Unknown | rect. Uh sneaky drop. Classic, classic. Grand Seiko and Seiko. Yeah, Grand Seiko. Um Big year. It's a very it's a very big year. Uh one of the most interesting things about Grand Seiko, uh well, a couple of things. Uh the slim uh hand wounds with power reserve dropped before the show, but what we got Slim handwound spring drive. Spring drive. 20th anniversary spring drive. Yeah, that's what we got. That's that's what uh uh what we got during the show. Um so the interesting thing about doing a hand a hand wound spring drive uh watch uh for Grand Seiko and for Seiko in general is that the first generation of spring drive movements when they were first when they were first released uh and this is going back twenty years because it's the twentieth uh well it's the I'm I'm really bad at uh you know back of the envelope mat But twenty years ago. So no nineteen ninety nine. Yeah. So it's it's been twenty years. And the first generation of spring drives were were hand wound. They were manually wound. And you know the whole ethos of Grand Seca was really about uh yes, beautiful craftsmanship and a connection to Japanese culture, but like the foundation of it is convenience for the consumer, which is why they went automatic. So virtually every automatic, uh virtually every spring drive movement has been automatic except for the super high-end stuff like uh HE, HE2, uh the Crator Sonory and Crator Minute Repeaters. Like if you wanted a hand wound spring drive movement from Seiko, it would cost you minimum, you know, around fifty thousand bucks. And um you know, these are still expensive. It would be exceptional. It would be exceptional. So good. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. But you know, for the first time we have um you know sort of a general production Grand Seiko uh wristwatch with a hand wound spring drive movement. And that's a fun thing to do with spring drive because it it reminds you that it's not a quartz watch. You know, it's a it it is a mechanical watch with a mechanical going train from the main spring barrel all the way up to the glide wheel. Um and it, you know, it gives you an opportunity to kind of directly interact with this technology. And I love the idea of uh hand wound spring drive and I'm excited about these wat |
| Unknown | ches. Yeah, I do too. Um and they're really beautiful. They're really, really amazing. The like slim elegance watches and then the um uh the anniversary models. Yeah, yeah. You know |
| Unknown | , the only thing that uh that I wonder about this is people fell in love with Grand Seiko because uh they were a tremendous, tremendous bang for the buck. So there was a there was a value proposition from Grand Seiko that you really could not get from a Swiss brand. Um and that was the perception, but I I honestly I think that that's also the reality. So at the top end, the hand wound spring drives are a 70,000 plus platinum cased watch, which is drop dead gorgeous. Um I think that if you yeah, yeah. And and honestly I, think if you evaluate it on its merits, it's very hard to argue that it's not, you know, worth it in some sense, but it's not what people are used to from Grand Seiko, and it's not what the Grand Seiko fan base is used to. And to be fair, there's also a sub eight thousand dollar watch in the same lineup of four watches. So it's it's not as if they're pricing themselves so as to become unavailable to the people who fell in love with them. But I I wonder about the optics of that. And I'm actually curious what you guys |
| Unknown | Well there's a seventy thousand dollar gold doxa out there. Oh seventy thousand dollar grand seca. I think I know which one I'm picking. Yeah, yeah. There's also a forty thousand dollar gold G Shock out there. Not picking that one. But maybe you are |
| Unknown | . TBD. Yeah, I mean I think it's it's interesting and I think, you know, people can complain about the optics and say that, you know, it's it's not good. Grand Sacle should bring the prices down, maybe whatever. But honestly, I think there's something kind of nice about them committing to this technology and saying, you know, it's it's the same thing that makes the Ichi so interesting is that, you know, there are a certain category of watch nerds who will say, ah, it has a quartz crystal in it. I'm I'm not paying fifty thousand dollars for it. That's ridiculous. This watch should be fifty dollars, blah, blah, blah. And those people are dumb. Uh, they don't understand what they're talking about. No, I mean you can choose not to like it. That's totally fine. But |
| Unknown | I I I mean I I agree with you and and I also understand why people might feel that way who haven't yet had a chance to totally, |
| Unknown | totally. I'm I'm I'm just saying I think you know you can choose not to like it. You can choose to think it's not for you. But I I think, you know, if you really understand what it is, you can at least acknowledge its merits, maybe. Yeah. Um and yeah, and I think there's something nice about, you know, they're they're comfortable and confident and are willing to say like you know it's a it's a big anniversary for us and we made this beautiful handcrafted platinum wristwatch and like yeah it has spring drive in it like of course we love spring drive. We believe in spring drive. The'yre not kind of saying like, oh, this is a lesser thing than our our mechanical automatic or hand wound. Yeah, and the two ne |
| Unknown | w you know, the two new calibers for these pieces, uh there's a there were there's a I'm I'm trying to remember the uh reference numbers, but I think it's uh nine R thirty one for the less expensive gold and stainless steel models and nine nine R9S02 uh for the high end one. And you know the higher end one is uh I mean it's it's finished as beautifully as an AHE too. And you know I mean that kind of work just doesn't come it doesn't come cheaply and it feels like a very, very, very uh you know beautiful compelling product. I think it was easier for people to accept that kind of price point for you know HE which really seemed like a rarity than for Grand Seco which traditionally people associate with a great value proposition. But there's no denying it's a beautiful watch. Or well I mean maybe there is denying it's a beautiful watch, but not not not in a reasonable |
| Unknown | world. I don't want to hear it. Nobody can tell me that. Um Yeah, and you know, the the year being all about Spring Drive, you know, the focus was was mostly on these kind of elegant, slim hand wow models, but they did introduce some automatics too, including this collection of three they're calling them the like sports collection, right? They're they're three new sports watches, a gold chronograph, a steel chronograph, and a steel three hand date. Right. So those th |
| Unknown | ose are are the so-called Tokyo Lion watches and those are spring drive also. Right. They're automatic spring drive. Automatic spring drive. Yep. Yep. Um it it honestly it it took a little getting used to for me uh because they are uh they're thick, very angular, faceted cases. I mean, you can't argue the quality, it's beautifully done, but you know, as a longtime Grand Seiko fan, I associate Grand Seiko with a sort of very discreet not not not very discreet but you know a certain kind of classicism sort of classicism through a Japanese filter and these are um they're not like anything anyone has ever seen from Grand Seiko uh but you know they're they're fun to be around. And uh I'm I'm curious to see how the market and how I will feel about them six months from now because I haven't gotten over the fact that they're shockingly novel for Grand Seco y |
| Unknown | et. I gotta be real. I didn't expect to like them and I really did. Um did you? The chronographs are are less my thing. Um, but all chronographs are less my thing. Uh anybody who knows me knows I own like basically exclusively thirty-six to thirty-nine millimeter three hand watches, no dates, no nothing. But uh yeah, but I I the three-hand date model, I saw the spec sheet and I was like, oh 44 and a half millimeters, you gotta be kidding me, no. Uh especially after seeing how beautiful the dials are. Oh, and the dials are incredible. The dials are amazing. Yeah. They're like this olive green color. They have a hand-carved, stamped-out pattern. They look almost 3D. They're really, really stunning. But I put it on my wrist and it's it's titanium. It has really short curved lugs. And so the way the bracelet integrates into the case, it almost feels like an integrated bracelet So uh the yeah and uh |
| Unknown | one of the things they were aware of was they wanted to produce a watch that would uh have a lot of visual presence, but they also wanted it to be uh wearable and comfortable. So the the case you were saying the the case taper it it actually uh uh tapers around the bottom of the case so that the amount of metal sitting on your wrist is a lot less than what it looks like. Yeah, and none of the from |
| Unknown | a distance the watch looks just like razor sharp at every angle. Um but on your wrist, the parts actually touching you are are curved and tapered down so it doesn't wear like it looks, uh which I think is a really nice kind of like piece of like visual tricker |
| Unknown | y by by them. Um yeah I I mean I feel like they did they did a they did a great job with those watches. They're not gonna be uh for everybody, but uh you know kind of like the Tutor P zero one uh you know prototype. Uh I mean I think uh uh one of the things that Cole loves about that watch is that it's not a watch for everybody. And one of the things I love about these uh Grand Secos is they're not a watch for everybody either. Um, but I I geez, I I feel like they'd be fun to wear |
| Unknown | . Yeah, I agree. So moving away from Grand Seiko to Seiko, uh, different brand, just a reminder. Um we had some pretty good stuff too |
| Unknown | that I know you were into. Yeah. So a while back in the pod, you asked what what's the watch you're looking forward to seeing? I said the 6105 reissue. Which is the apocalypse now watch, right? Which is the apocalypse now watch. However, so I will say something kind of interesting, is that they're not. Excuse me, everybody. I'm gonna be interested. What I mean is something interesting about the Apocalypse Now relationship is that obviously Seiko can't put that in front of us, right? That that's totally enthusiastic-driven thing. But what they did champion was Naomi Umura, a Japanese mountain climber, also wore that watch, but we don't talk about it. So they had his original six one hundred five and the reissue right next to each other. And that was good because it it A, highlighted how they kind of sidested up the new one. Also, what I thought was interesting is seeing fresh loom on that watch. It it looks almost like you remember those old uh orange monster, black monster, the original one? I I I own both of them. Yeah, me too. Me too. Um the gobs of Lumibrate that they had. Yeah. And they were kind of like a greenish color. Yeah, and when the uh minute hand and the hour hand uh were on top of each other, you had this like wonderful like rocket chip thing. Yeah, that was so cool. So so what I saw in the the new 6105, you know, the older ones they have that kind of like dirty toothpaste loom, that wabi sabi that is is white, but th that era of loom kinda gets moldy and weird looking. When you see clean loom on the watch, it changes it completely. That is one s |
| Unknown | harp watch. Clean loom on the watch and a Zoratsu polished bezel and you know forty-five millimeters. I mean it's I think it's forty four. Forty four. Yeah. Um but |
| Unknown | man, it looks really good. Yeah, it does. It looks sharp. And yeah, there's the whole whole thing about price. I don't know. I honestly would potentially do it |
| Unknown | . Uh you know the the the the previous editions they've done of you know basically high test versions of vintage watches have been, you know, they they sell out fast. Uh they're trading now at higher than they sold for retail. Significantly higher than retail. Uh so it's it's it's clearly not a bad idea from a commercial standpoint. Right. And they're just great looking watches |
| Unknown | . Yeah, no, they are. And yeah, like you said, they're never going to go down in value. Right. And it's just a very, very cool piece. They did a good job with it. And I like that the on the second sand they did the stoplight configuration. Yeah, I love that too. Because usually you on the older ones that's gone by now, right? You never see the little red dot anymore. On a really good |
| Unknown | one maybe. Yeah, I mean, you know, I I love the whole idea of Wabi Sabi, but as y you know, as as our sort of resident vintage dive watch uh you know guy, um you know, as you know it's very hard to find one in good condition. And you know, to see the to see a watch that you love uh uh relatively speaking it's a lot of money, you know, four thousand plus dollars. But y you know, you're getting uh you know an eight eight L thirty five movement, uh y sort of a baby grand seiko. Um you're getting a sapphire crystal, Zeratsu polishing. It's kind of like it's almost as if uh what you dreamed that watch would be, but it never actually can be has suddenly appeared in front of you |
| Unknown | . That's totally true. And I remember when I started collecting Seiko, the six one oh fives were going on eBay with like uh people were buying those as cheap watches to put their own aftermarket dials on and stuff like that. Yeah. People were mo people were moding pop. Which makes my hair stand on end. Yeah, it's kinda and then you see all right, this reissue that kinda sets the record straight, this is what you know, this is the watch. It's it welcome, you know, like this is the watch is getting some respect now. So I like that actually. So uh that's you and me nerding up |
| Unknown | on vintage psycho hard. Yeah. So Sequo has some other stuff, some good stuff. Uh Persage models with porcelain dials. We saw them last last year, two years ago with enamel dials. Um, there's a whole bunch of new prospects, divers. Um we'll be covering all of them on the site. Some of them we've already covered. Uh but you can go check those out. We'll link up what what we have already covered. Um we saw some other stuff today too, right, Kara? |
| Unknown | Yes. I saw some things. What were you into? Um I'm going to so I wasn't on the podcast yesterday, so I'm gonna kind of combine the past couple of days. Um what I saw. I saw um Hublow with James, and I thought that was actually a really funny gonna go hype on Hublow. I was a really fun meeting, I'm not gonna lie. I was into their Sapphire 30, I think it was like 38 millimeter watch or maybe it was like Wait, I missed this. It was last year and that came out and I covered it. And then they came out with more sapphire things. And I just think the sapphire thing is kind of like full sapphire cases. Yes. Yeah. And as over the top and totally unnecessary and ridiculous as they are. Like it's a cool thing. And so I really enjoy that. So there was Hublow, and so they also had some rainbows, which, you know, I'll get into that later. Um but of course you will. Well, I'm just saying rainbows are trending. It's on bar. Everyone's tired of me talking about it, but I'm telling you they're everywhere. Including on Here about Gummies. Anyways. Um Hey Cara. Yeah. Uh so uh you and I took a G Shock meeting today. Yes, we took a G Shock Casio meeting. And they too have gotten on to the rainbow trend. Not in a literal sense, but they have not in the diamond sense. Yes, not in the diamond sapphire sense. Um It's not covered in gemstones. Is it even a rainbow? This is an abstract version of a rainbow. Okay. And it was a metal G shock that had been iodized. Ionized? Uh iodized.on i i Iodized iodized tables involves iodine which is not the same. Covered it in salt. Anyways. |
| Unknown | So here's here's Jack jumping in for technical clarification. This is my call out box right here. So it's it's a it's uh an ion uh plating uh process. Yes. Uh but it produces this really beautiful and for a G Shock very unexpected uh you |
| Unknown | know uh iridescent rainbow effect. Yes, and each one is unique because it never ends up being the same. It's a thousand dollars a pop. That's a lot cheaper than a rainbow daytona. Which is a fraction, a mere fraction, the cause of a rainbow tona. I would say it's like one ninetyeth if we're gonna be accurate. One ninety-fourth. One ninety fourth point three five. Anyways, but so yeah, it was a r that was a really fun meeting, especially to kind of see what they're up to. So |
| Unknown | Car, there was also an art piece they showed us uh swords. Made by uh with with decoration from a uh family of Japanese sword makers. Yeah, that was insane. Who have been making Japanese swords, the kat the you know katanas and other Japanese swords for eight hundred years |
| Unknown | . Yes. And he made the he made the prototypes of the links all hand engraved. They're hand etched and then they were recreated and to create a bracelet. And it was actually really crazy. I'm surprised that made it made it through the security at Basil World. I'm trying to the sword was not there. I'm trying to think if you' |
| Unknown | re not going to Jack did wonder where the sw |
| Unknown | ord was. I'm trying to think if my family's been doing anything for eight hundred years. I completely have no idea where my family was eight hundred years ago |
| Unknown | . That's my family's craft. I think they were like complaining for eight hundred years ago. |
| Unknown | an amazing thing to see and um like yeah I I I think it was uh John Buse who's unfortunately not with us who I mean at the fair. At the fair John John Bues is fine. Shout out to John Buse who is totally fine. John is enjoying his weekend currently true story. Um but uh he uh texted me a couple of days ago and said, Did you know that uh uh three of the uh the the three oldest restaurants in the world are all in Japan? Huh. Uh so that's it's I'm not I'm not sure if I'm classic John B. I was gonna say that's a good jo John fact. I like that. So I'm I'm not sure if I'm remembering his you know text correct actually completely factually correctly, but you know Japan is one of those places where the same family has there are there are a lot of families that have been doing the same thing for three hundred, four hundred, five hundred, eight hundred years apparently. These guys have been making swords for eight hundred |
| Unknown | years. Cool. Which sourcing those I imagine was pretty difficult. But it was very cool. Cool. And they're like fine they're like fine. Let's do yeah, we'll decorate a G Sharp. Another cool thing I saw was Debatune with James today. Yeah. I'm so upset I didn't get to see this watch. I was supposed to go see it with you guys. I don't know if I'm like slow on the uptake, like why it took me so long to really like get over there and see that stuff, but it was cool. Like it was a 45mm watch and it fit my wrist like a glut. Articulated lugs.. I know It was awesome. I loved it. It was so small. It has eighty thousand dollars over it. It has the piezo electric lights in it, right? Yeah. You press a button and it lights up. Takes the main spring power and it just poop lights up. Oh wait, so uh |
| Unknown | uh Van Cleef Van Cleef and our post. Van Cleef, yeah. Oh yes, |
| Unknown | that's right. Yeah. All right. So Cole, before we move on and we bring Mr. Thompson on the list to uh tell us a little bit about this year and the fate of Basel World. Uh there's one more watch. We've been talking about it for days, literally for days, the entire show. Yeah. And you finally saw it in the metal. Oh, what is it? Tell us about the damn Zodiac GMT. |
| Unknown | Alright. Well I guess make us beg, aren't you? Yeah, so actually some commenters uh commented on the introducing post saying, you know, did you get to take pictures to get to pictures? Yes, it's coming. That will be coming soon, right? That'll be up tomorrow. Perfect. So you got something to look forward to there. Um that's a relief. You're welcome, everybody. So people |
| Unknown | got went bananas over that watch. They did. They liked it. Um one of our digital producers is knocking everything at the end of the day, man. It's all good, guys |
| Unknown | . Something interesting. I mean in the meeting they mentioned we kinda went through the history of Zodiac, which I'll put this all in the post and everything. Some just interesting tidbit before I get into the watch itself, they said that they pointed to the Zodiac Killer as contributing to the the downfall of brand. That that Yeah. I actually believe that. Yeah. |
| Unknown | When your brand is closely aligned with the most notorious serial killer in America, well it wasn't he was at the time he was he was killing. I was gonna say working. That's a weird thing to say. Uh like at work. But like he signed work. He signed the notes with the same logo as the brand. Yeah. Made up. So that's that's so 70s were very hot for serial killers. Maybe we don't need to go full ham |
| Unknown | serial killer. Yeah. So okay, serial killers aside. That's just an interesting situation. Great segue. The watch is awesome. It really is. Uh in the metal, I mean so here's the thing. Another thing about the watch is the it's the seawolf. It literally is the seawolf. So if you're familiar with that case sizing and if you like the way it fits on your wrist, this is literally the same. They just kind of changed the lug design a little bit. But um yeah, so they took that case and gave it the GMT treatment. And that's a proven good design, the the modern Seawolf, the modern re-edition. Um the Gulf livery, I don't even know what you want to say. What you want to call it? The orange and blue one. It's kinda one of their signatures. Well, yeah, it is. It is. It actually came from the Seawolf also. You know they had the watermelon seawolf last year. Yeah. That one, you know, knocked out of the park. Everyone loved it. Before that even you had the golf livery. So obviously if you liked it then, you'll like it now. It's nice. It's cool. It's loud. It's a great watch for summer. And as I feel like it's warmer here in Basel than it is probably back home, but it feels like summer. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. Um and yeah, walking out of the the meeting I'm thinking, ah, you know, it's kinda hot out. That watch. That's the watch I want on my wrist right now. Um yeah, I really enjoyed it. I'll put everything in the article. I don't want to, you know, I can talk for hours about this, I'm sure. Yeah, please don't. I won't, I won't. But um |
| Unknown | Let's spread it out over several podcasts. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Sweet. I liked it. Awesome. Well uh with that, let's bring Mr. Thompson on. Let's talk about the fate of Basel World. |
| Unknown | So uh before uh we uh introduce Mr. Joe Homp Mr. Joe Thompson, I want to say that uh he his soundcheck was the opening lines of the Gettysburg Address. Pretty amazing. Only Joe Thompson. Great speech |
| Unknown | , gotta say. The man could give a good speech. It's a good speech. All right, Joe. Welcome to the show. Yeah, well, okay. Uh hi everybody. Uh I'm I'm Joe and I'm uh the business re watch business reporter for Hidinky. And so the big business story at the show, pretty much the only business story at the show was the crisis of Basel World. This is the second year in a row that the big business story was about the show itself. And the crisis, as I guess everybody knows, is that um is this is whether or not there is really a role for a show like Basel World in the digital age. Twelve years ago, there were two thousand one hundred and nine exhibitors at this show. Three years ago, there were 1,500 exhibitors at this show. At this show, there were five hundred exhibitors. As Mr. Michelle Loris Melakoff, the new show director, said, frankly, this has this we've hit bottom. And this does have to be the bottom. So the question is, where do they go from here? Well, the answer to that was what it was in a a new thing for this show, a secret room called the Blue Room. I personally have not been in the Blue Room. I have my appointment there tomorrow. But even if I were to have been in the Blue Room, I uh uh I couldn't tell you because I will have to sign when I go tomorrow an NDA, a non-disclosure agreement, not to reveal anything about what I learned in there. I'm not sure why all this is so top secret, but it is. And what's happening is that the new management has come up with a totally new concept for what Basel World would be. Basel World 2019 is a transitional show. And um the less said about it probably the better. The focus of the new m team has been on And what they've said is that it's going to be a complete redo and rethink of the show. It's going to be a live event platform that they want to be year-round so it will be digital with a very, very strong consumer facing component. Sounds great. What that means in re you know, in in detail, we don't know. It's in the blue room. So the executives, the decision makers of the and the f the the fate of the show resides uh on the exhibitors. That's that's the economic model. You know, you can make money at two thousand exhibitors, you lose a lot of money at 500. So people have to make a decision. So they're they're having the exhibitors come. I saw, for example, uh Mr. Schwefley of Chopard, you know, going into the Blue Room to get the presentation. And in there are the are the details that everybody's craving to know about what consumer facing and digital uh mean for Balza World. So Joe |
| Unknown | , just not to jump in, but uh just for clarification. Th isere a presentation space called the Blue Room. Where the new show management for MCH group are presenting what their concept will be for 2020. Digitally. There's a there's a video |
| Unknown | , I'm told. And everybody's gonna see this. Do you come out? You come out. A clone comes out, who |
| Unknown | knows? There's a new uh yeah, there's an element obviously uh of intrigue about this. Um it's all going to be disclosed, my understanding, is at the end of the show on Tuesday. And then we'll kind of go from there. So the critical question is will the new concept that the new management has come up with persuade enough people to come back to Basel World in 2020? Now, nothing is certain but certain things we can say we can make some guesses. We can we can guess that the anchor brands here, which are Rolex and Potec Philippe, that have historically been very, very uh supportive of the show, um, there's a strong strong indication that they would come back, although nothing is certain. The LVMH group, another really, really important, with the four brands, you know, uh Bulg Bulgary, Ublow, Taghoyer, Zenith, they will decide individually. Uh there's not a group decision there. And, you know, it it nothing is certain. Other question, will Brightling pull out, which is what the rumor is? Uh nothing is certain, but that's sort of expected. It's expected that there will be a new uh economic model. There will be a new pricing structure for the show. The new management has said that certainly not not every everybody should be saying paying the same rate. There are also already rumors around the show of oh well the the prices will drop by fifteen percent. I mean I don't know if any of this is true |
| Unknown | . And they're apparently they're trying to create a more uh sort of friendly environment for the in for uh the small independent brands uh very very low pricing um you know easy uh easy entry um and you know the independent brands are uh they're they're they're sexy. I mean there there are a lot of people who come here as excited to see what's being done by somebody like Karsten Frausdorf uh as uh you know what's done by Omega. As |
| Unknown | well. Well you make the right point. Yeah you cannot see what's done by Omega here. That's right because uh the swatch group uh famously pulled out of the show last July. And that's the question. That's the the elephant not in the room was the swatch group with its eighteen brands. Can they be lured back? Nikhayek, the CEO of the Swatch Group, uh said before the show that that they can't. But nothing is certain. Um he has not seen the presentation about Ba uh 2020. There uh most people think he he certainly will not, or the Swatch group will certainly not be not be back. But there's some there's some controversy. Uh the retail, for example, the American retailers are very unhappy that in two months, the past two months, they've had to go uh to source material to see watches uh in Geneva and then in Zw in Basel and then to go to see six uh prestige swatch group brands that are showing up at the Hyang Hayek Engineering Building in Zurich. And they're saying to the to the Swiss, you can't you you've gotta get yourselves together. We don't wanna have to go to three. And that's happening. Next year the the shows are back to back. So just to wrap this this part of it up, um we don't do there is gonna be the next people tell me all of them are saying the next few weeks are absolutely So it's it for the the the blue smoke has moved from the shows a little bit towards the brands. For the first time in a long, long time, the brands have some sort of negotiating posture with the shows. And we will see what happen.ed So now it's a Rubik Cube of because the of the of the timing of the shows in May next year. It's it's it's late April and early May. Um and who's gonna go where are other people gonna pull out the way Movado Group did and have its own little show, or the way Brightling may do and have roadshows, etc., etc.? And um so we'll know much more in a month, but right now we, don't know. I'll end by just saying about how important all of this is. The Basel World Show is owned by a show company, 40 plus uh events, live events shows and shows. Um on the first day of the show they quietly released their financial results for twenty eighteen and they lost a hundred and ninety million dollars dollars. So Swiss francs. In f fisc now, that's not all Basel World. There are other things, but a large percentage of it is Basel World. Did they break it out? And uh no. A little a a little bit th they did break it out um a little bit y i is is a a show that they've that they've they've sold losses on that. Uh there is there are c a couple other losses, but the devaluation of the value of uh of the of the entire complex that has occurred, you know, the as as at his as sh at his it has shrunk to 500 from 2,000 in the course of a decade. So Baza World is a is a key. It was the cash cow. It was the cash cow. Then, you know, uh Art Basel of course became a big, big revenue producer. So um two years ago, in in two fiscal two thousand seventeen, they lost more than a hundred million. This is starting to add up. In finan fiscal two thousand nineteen, they are predicting losses. So it is absolutely crucial that uh th that that that Basel world uh and they don't have they don't have forever, that that that the presentation go well if they're going to survive and that they get get the support of as many people as possible and just see |
| Unknown | what happens. And they spent about twenty five percent of what they would have spent to be in Basel World. That's right, Jack. And Now this is this is a group. Um but do you think that this is the that this is the future? Because I I don't honestly see how um I don't see how Basel World could possibly roll back their business model enough to attract the Movado Group to come back and the Movado Group seems completely uninterested in com |
| Unknown | ing Correct. Um but then you have the other side of this which is where w people say well without Basel World, so many of the brands uh are are not able to Yeah the one is going to be coming in soon with their results uh estimated about six hundred and sixty million dollars. Not everybody has those resources. They have eleven brands there. So that this gathering of the mid-price brand, the the the mid-priced people here are really hoping that the anchors, which are Rolex and Patha, come back, because they still they still do business here. They still write business here. Um and so if it completely fragments, we we don't know where it goes. And even the Mavato group um next year, Baalza World, and SIH H are in late a the f last week of April and the first week of May and conflict with Ramadan. There's still all kinds of conflicts here. Yeah, it's kinda that's a but will the Mavada group want to wait till May to have their Davos experience? Then if not, then the cost probably will go up. And so w the that's one question being debated. Okay, if this dies, what happens with this complete fragmentation |
| Unknown | So one of the things that that fragmentation also produces is is a problem on the media side. I mean it's a problem on the buying side, but if you're a watch retailer, worst case, they send you some really beautiful high-res photos, you make your choices and you buy things. You know, like I think the retailers will figure it out. Uh on the media side, the reason that somebody like Mavato Group does something before Basel World is because they know people are already here in Switzerland. If this gets fragmented and we end up in a world where there's an SIHH, there's a Basel world, there's something Swatch Group is doing, there's something Mavata Group is doing, Rolex does their own thing, Paddock does their own thing, Brightling does their own thing, AP does their own thing, Richard Meal does something. You know, we might send somebody over to Switzerland or find somebody here full time just to do the shows for us. But you know who's not coming over here? The fashion editor of the New York Times. You know who else isn't coming over here? The folks from GQ and Esquire and Town and Country and the LA Times and like the kind of mainstream press are not gonna send somebody over to Switzerland for two or three days every time one watch brand wants to show off a handful of products. Right. So what it's gonna do is it's gonna be bad for the whole industry because people are just not going to cover these things. It's gonna reduce the visibility of the entire industry as this gets more fragmented, right? I mean, well yes, but regional shows |
| Unknown | may spring up. Already there's talk about Watches and Wonders in Miami next February, which is actually after the uh the January SIHH, so that may be the launch show for the Americas. um as a pre boss away. But May is very late for a late April ver you know. You've got to really have your uh your supply line constricted if you're with if if you you''rere not taking orders to May. Now people will take orders prior to May. There's no doubt about that. But that's what this this is this is a wran |
| Unknown | gle. All of this is a huge wrangle right now. That's an interesting thing. Can you just explain that real quick for people who may not understand how this works. So, you know, my understanding right now is is that, you know, let's say we're we're in, you know, we're in March, you come here, you're a retailer, you place your orders, and then the product starts delivering later in the year. Q4 is the biggest time for the for the watch business. If you're not placing orders till May, do you think these brands are gonna be able to get product into stores by holiday |
| Unknown | ? Well, we know what the the the normal supply chain is. So that if you place your order now, you know, they'll they'll they'll they'll then s start producing, they'll know the quantities to produce, they'll know the regions it needs to get to, and you hope that it gets there by the fourth quarter. That's what that's that's what you're shooting for. So you've got X months to get it there. And if if if you're not placing orders till the second quarter, d you know, darn near the the summer, um you're probably not gonna get that's that's a 2000 uh where are we now okay that's a that's a 2021 product so no with the bigger bigger firms will already be be placing orders locally most of the firms now the larger firms do not sell here anymore. It used to be that you had s you sold y seventy percent of y your your volume, your orders were placed here. It's for a lot of them, for most of the it's it's switched. Now you now y now ya you you know you, you sell thirty percent here. But but you you've got subsidiaries and so the orders are being placed, you know, locally. And that's why this show has to become a B to C show. We don't know what does it mean? We know that you know we'll find out. It's in the blue room. I'll find out tomor |
| Unknown | row. But that that's that's really the only way for it to survive. But you know, uh just listening to um what you and Stephen have been talking about. And you know, I I kinda want to throw this out to Cara and Cole as well. You know, we are um as as journalists, we're uh very, very attuned to, you know, what the information cycle is and the product development cycle is uh you know from the shows versus what actually you know gets to consumers. But like how much does any of this actually matter to end consumers? You know, to somebody who is uh you know looking to buy, you know, um a Swiss made product between, you know, three and uh I'm gonna throw a number out there, between like a three hundred dollars and and eight thousand dollars. Is i is any of this gonna make a difference to consumers or, is this all just in internal wrangling that has a really interesting anthropological aspect for those of us who watch the industry? But it's not going to make all that much difference to end consumers, or is it a brother I mean I |
| Unknown | think no, but also yes, because I think if you can't get the information, well, if you can't get the information to people in a timely fashion, they won't know what's going on. And if you can't get the product in store, then they also won't know what's going on. 'Cause not everybody reads hodinky, not everybody reads magazines to to buy watches, they just go into the store to see what they have and they try them on. So so those people won't well, I don't really know what I'm saying anymore, but those people won't know. No, I think you're right. They won't feel any difference. But like the enthusiasts and the collectors and the people who really follow the market and really follow the pieces and really want to to buy watches regularly will be affected by it. But those who are just buying a one-off won't know the differen |
| Unknown | I think companies will adjust. I mean I just think they they they will need to adjust the supply chain and maybe they will do regional launches and things like that. There is and this is the debate. There's an enormous debate. But But um to your question, yeah, I mean the industry's gonna go on. This is a problem with the show, |
| Unknown | not the industry. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. I think that's a good place to end this conversation. We are gonna have you back on Joe. Oh, your your eyes just got so wide when I said that. Uh we're dragging we're dragging you back. Uh we're gonna do you know in the next couple weeks or the next you know two, three months, we're we're gonna digest this maybe on kind of what the future of the industry looks like in this way. You know, what do the shows look like? How does it affect consumers? How does it affect media? We'll hash it all out. We'll see if we have some answers. Can't wait. I mean he's gonna see the future and not be allowed to tell any of us about it. And I can talk about it Wednesday. So we're we're gonna wrap things up here. We all uh we all gotta write a couple final stories, uh go pack our bags and get ready to head back to New York. Um but before we do that, let's close with uh a little question I got for everybody. Two two pardor two questions. What for you was the highlight of this year's show? And what is the thing you are most hoping to see in next year's show? It can be a product, it can be something that happened, it can be a general thing. But let's start with Kara, right on my left. What for you was the highlight, and what do you want to see next year |
| Unknown | ? For me, the highlight personally was discovering new brands. Not new brands, but brands that existed that I had not spent much time seeing or looking at because if you're on the ground at Basel in the past years, we lost like twenty brands to see, which obviously take up twenty hours of time. Right. If you really think about it. Um so you were able to kind of explore more and spread the team out a little bit more to see new things. So I saw Cassio with Jack, I saw D Tabutune with James. Um I was able to learn more about Zodiac and I was able to see you know Oris and all these kind of brands that I I don't always get to visit during the fair because we kind of just divide things up. So I felt really grateful to be able to kind of explore that market. And I think that the fare now that it's smaller, and I was talking about this earlier offline, um, is that now that omit you know the Swatch Group is out, which everybody knows the Swatch Group brands, you know Langine, you know Omega. Um it allowed other brands to shine and it allowed LVMH to shine, it allowed the kind of more accessible brands to shine. It allowed the independence to shine. And it's you know it's the same with SIHH. You don't get to s it's all it's a very specific fair and then this one kind of a allowed us to see more stuff. And I think that that was exciting. And I think it was exciting for the readers. I think it was exciting for the editors. Um, you know, having Cole on board was great. He has a totally new perspective, and that was exciting for me too |
| Unknown | . You've you've you felt the uh absence of some uh tent pole brands |
| Unknown | Yeah, of course. I mean the thing is is we're always going to pay attention to the Swatch brands. They you know, it's a huge it's a huge company. It owns many brands. It's o exactly. Like we will always cover Omega, no matter if they're at Basel or whether not at Basel, whether it it's like and that's true. 'Cause like people love Omega and we do too. And so I think that it was nice at the it was nice at the fair to be able to kind of spend more time with other people, um, and really be able to focus on those watches. And there were some great watches this year. And I could go on. Should I go on? Tell me what you want to see next year. Oh, okay, next year. More rainbows? More M MK JKJ. J C which rainbows are trending. Whatever. We could do a separate podcast on that. We're super not. We're not going to, damn it. What do I want to see next year? Uh I do this year I saw a lot more ladies' watches and I wanna keep seeing that and not necessarily branded as ladies watches, but watches that women can wear. And there really were a lot there were since I started Hodinky, th the watchmark for women has totally changed. And I think that's really exciting. Fourth. Oooo. Getting big time. I know. I'm I'm like a regular now. One tenth of Joe Thompson. I'm no Joe Thompson though. You're a fixture. Yeah, that's a stretch. But maybe next year. Maybe my fifth year. Alright. Do I get a do I get a present for my fifth year? No. Okay. You get to come to Basel. You might |
| Unknown | get a cake. Cole. Basel wine. What was your favorite thing first year of Basel? Alright, I'm gonna go real general and just say actually getting to go to Basel. That was my favorite thing. |
| Unknown | Like you probably I would assume knew about this and like wanted to come. Yeah, of course. Yeah I mean, definitely |
| Unknown | . And yeah, I've been reading, you know, Hodinky's coverage. I've I've I I always thought it was kinda one of those things that I'm gonna do before I die. I'm gonna go to Basel World before I die. And now, you know, a few years later I'm here. So that was awesome. Uh you literally eat, sleep, and breathe, watches. So that you know, you think that anything in excess is is too much. But I don't know, I I kinda I kinda liked it. Not here. I don't know if I could yeah, like you I'm I'm serious when I say eat, sleep and breathe, you literally eat at dinners. Uh at dinners, you're talking about watches. Sleep, you don't really actually get much of. So I can't I can't say that. But breathe, yeah, you're breathing the air in the in hall one all the time. And uh yeah, it was kinda cool because uh i i if i do this outside of this context and talk about watches or do watch stuff it's like uh people start to say all right cooler with the watch stuff here i feel like i'm even I'm even on the kind of the lower end of the spectrum in term Yeah, yeah. Sorry bro. So I guess uh I'll go back to this you know that scene in Devil Wears Prada where I know every season in Devil Wars Devil Wears Prada the official movie of Hodinki Radio. The official movie of Stephen J. Poverty. There's that that idea that uh every little detail it's about the blue, that color blue. Yeah, do you that one? So having not been to Basel, I always looked at it like this is where all these people get together and decide what's going to be popular. What um the decisions they make are going to affect what I buy, going back to the question earlier. But it's actually not that way. And what I found was that a lot of decisions are made in these meetings, kind of these impromptu meetings, based on feedback on conversations that they're having. It's not all planned. So No, it's not. Yeah, and watch brands are listening to not only industry people, but they're actually listening to consumers. So, you know, talking to these getting a little inside baseball with them and them saying, yeah, we found that that we we see that people like this or they don't like that or whatever. And you know, I know that they're listening to everything that you guys listening on this podcast are saying, and me, and me too. And uh I would like to see more of that. I want to see consumers get a little bit more uh involved Cool. Interesting |
| Unknown | . Mr. Forster? That's a tough act to follow. Um you know, I was uh listening to Cole's comments and when um uh Joe and I were in Davos we had a chance to talk to uh one of the founders of Movement, um super nice guy named Jake, and uh also to one of the founders of uh Olivia Burton. And we we know one of the things that both of them said was that you know this the success of both their brands was really owing to a very high degree of engagement with their clients on uh social media. So like movement would not be uh you know and uh a company valued at eighty million uh and Olivia Burton, you know, uh I'm not sure what the uh I can't remember offhand what the um uh purchase price was but, you know these, were both the uh flagship brands for the Movado Group and they exist because of social media. They are successful because of social media. And uh you know just like direct engagement with consumers is was critical to their success. And I feel like that's kind of the missing secret sauce for Basel World. It was a it was a B2B thing for so long and I think there's still a B2B mentality. But if it's going to if it's gonna work for the Swiss watch industry and for the brands that participate, I think there there has to be a direct, you know, sort of business to consumer component. Nice. And Mr. Thompson |
| Unknown | . Well, I'll pick up on Cole's point too. Uh the joy you felt this year at your first is the joy I feel this year at my fortieth. And Oh man, me too. That is amazing. And that is what will be lost if Basel World doesn't make it. There is a community here, there is the human factor, there are the people I only see here around the world that I that that I know and I can't wait to see and I love to talk to and And um so when I come back next year and so the best thing f that that I hope I have one more day, and of course I I want to see a a terrific presentation in the Blue Room that will convince not me but the people who count that there is a value to this. There is a value to uh two weeks of the year where the whole world gathers in Switzerland, uh in Baza andar Geneva, if that's the way it has to be. And the whole world is watching and coming and now this new consumer element. And so what do I want to see next year? I'm not going to play the politics of who should come back. I just want to see a bigger, better Bazaar world with this consumer element, and that the whole watch world uh just can't wait to come here every year the way I have for forty years. You |
| Unknown | know what makes me uh sad about Basel World uh as it exists right now, Joe. Uh and to your point and to Cole's point. Um this is sw watchmaking in Switzerland is a unique cultural heritage of Switzerland. There are beautiful watches made in Germany, there are beautiful watches made in Japan, obviously. But you know, this th thing, this crazy thing that people love for some bizarre reason, from this tiny little country in the middle of Europe that has managed to stay out of a land war in Europe for five hundred years, you know, it like it it doesn't exist anywhere else. And I I wish that um and I would like to put this out as a message to everyone who is a Swiss watch brand, you know, the Nicholas Hayek's of the world on down. I I just want to say to you guys you know, this exists nowhere else. And it's a it's a valuable thing. It's a weird little beautiful thing. And you know, maybe once a year at Basel, you know, we could we could all just come |
| Unknown | Jack on that the roots of Boswell World, the show that we go to is 102 years old. So it has survived the Great Depression, World War II. Two wars. Well, it was nineteen seventeen. So you're right. You're right. It started in a war. Yes. Survived all that. It survived the co |
| Unknown | urt crisis. Two wars, the courts watch crisis, L C D I would hope that it could survive the digital revolution. We'll see |
| Unknown | . Yeah. I guess my highlight, you know, touches Joe on on something you said, you know, it's it's a particular word, uh which is community. Um and you know, I I think I love coming to Basel World to see the new watches, but it's it's the people really, you know, who who make it for me. You know, it's the you know, the folks you only see, like you said, once a year. It's the hugs, the handshakes, the smiles, the conversations that are, you know, sometimes about watches, sometimes not, uh, finding out how people's families are doing. Like really, like it it's's a good reminder that these little fantastic strange objects that we're all kind of obsessed with uh bring people together in in weird ways. And there are so many awesome people who I would never have had a chance to meet or interact with if it wasn't for watches. I mean, that's kind of the whole premise behind doing this show is talking to those people, whether it's us internally or or the folks we have on Hodinky Radio is is that this world encompasses so many fascinating people and and getting to see those people is is great. Um one of my favorite facets of that, and I won't go too too crazy on this, is is the media world here. Um, you know, I'm a big again, anybody who listens regularly will know this. Like I'm a big media nerd as much as I'm into watches. Uh and seeing how the watch media world has changed and evolved over the last, you know, this is my seventh bossel um has has changed over the last seven or eight years is is pretty wild and how people are trying to cover the show and how there are so many people who are passionate about coming here and finding ways to tell stories about these things to the the larger world, whether it's a niche world or or the kind of general interest media. And that's exciting. I'm always interested to get here and see how how people tell those stories. So I guess what what I'm looking forward to next year is connected to that, which is you know, I think a big part of whether the the show succeeds or fails is about that messaging uh and and about how the stories of the watch industry get told to the world. And I think that's that for me is the thing I'm watching. Like I want to know who's saying what about what's happening as much as I want to know about what's happening. So yeah, hope hfulopelyfully next year we'll have some some good storytelling and some good news maybe to to report. But yeah. Yeah, fingers crossed. Wow, guys. So does this so emotional. I know Joe's I know Joe's got the blue room. I hope you don't come out a clone. God, I hope he comes out at all. Yeah. Jeez. What is this? They actually just have Nick Hayek in there just brow beating people. Um but yeah, I think uh I think that does it. Is that is that a wrap for us on Basel 2019? Yes. All right, guys. I think so. Let's call it. Show's over. This show's over. The Basel show is over for us. Uh let's go get those last stories up, get packed, crack a beer, get the hell back to New York. Order some pizza. Yeah. Alright. Let's do it. Bye everybody. Bye everybody else. Thanks for listening to our Basel World recap episodes. That's going to do it for us. And because you've gotten, I guess, what, five episodes of Hodinky Radio this week, we're gonna take a little bit of a break on Monday. So you won't get a new normal episode in your feed on Monday, but we'll be back the week after that. Business as usual, and uh it's it's gonna be a good one. You definitely want to stay tuned. All right, have a great week everybody. We'll see you soon. |