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François-Henry Bennahmias (CEO, Audemars Piguet)

Published on Mon, 28 Jan 2019 11:00:00 +0000

The Audemars Piguet CEO talks about the influence of fashion in watches, his long-time Swatch obsession, and, of course, CODE 11.59.

Synopsis

In this episode of Hodinkee Radio, hosts Stephen Pulvirent and John Buse sit down with Audemars Piguet CEO François-Henri Bennahmias to discuss the then-unreleased Code 11.59 collection. The conversation takes place in December, shortly before the official unveiling at SIHH. Bennahmias enthusiastically walks them through the new collection, explaining the intricate details of the case construction, including the innovative double-curved sapphire crystal and the technically challenging applied gold logo that took two years to perfect. He reveals that the collection includes three entirely new calibers: a new automatic movement, a long-awaited integrated chronograph, and a self-winding tourbillon. The CEO acknowledges that he knew the collection would generate strong reactions, given AP's history and the weight of launching something described as the most important release since the Royal Oak in 1972.

Beyond the Code 11.59, the conversation covers Bennahmias's 25-year journey with Audemars Piguet, from his early days selling watches one at a time in France to revitalizing the brand in the United States starting in 1999, when the company was struggling with only $6 million in annual revenue and 95 points of sale. He discusses the brand's strategic shift toward boutique retail and direct client relationships, the reduction of references from over 500 to around 150 to maintain quality and exclusivity, and the importance of company culture in building a lasting legacy. Bennahmias also shares personal anecdotes, including his background in the fashion industry, his time as one of the world's largest Swatch collectors with over 1,200 pieces, and the lessons he learned about management and treating people with respect throughout his career.

Transcript

Speaker
Unknown Hey everybody, we've got a pretty interesting episode for you this week. Back in December, the weekend of the big Hodinki 10th anniversary celebration, um senior editor John Buse, who I have here with me today. Hello, everybody. Uh, and I, we got to uh sit down with Automar PG CEO Francois Henri Benamias, uh, and we got to talk about a whole bunch of things. But one of the things we really focused on was the at the time unreleased code 1159 collection. And John, we actually got to see two of the pieces ahead of time, right? Yeah, we we got to look at one of the chronographs and one of the time only pieces. Yeah, and it was really interesting at the time to hear Francois kind of walk us through the collection. It was the first time either one of us had seen these watches. We'd heard AP was doing something big, but we didn't really know what it was. And to hear Francois walk us through not kind of having any other perspective or anybody else's opinions was was interesting, especially considering that when they came out a few weeks later at the SIHH, uh it was quite quite the respon
Unknown se, right? Aaron Powell Yeah. Francois was super uh super enthusiastic, I would say, about these watches and not just uh the cases and the dials that the new collection represented, but also two new movements that he was debuting with Code 1159. So to hear him talk about it was I think super interesting
Unknown . I do too. And I think this episode, and the reason we wanted to preface this episode this way, is that it gives you some insight that I think might have been lost in the kind of fray of SIHH. You know, people saw the watches the Saturday night before the show and kind of lost their minds a little bit. Um and and granted, there's there's things that I personally really like about them and things about them that I don't like so much. Um but you know it kind of became a little bit of of an echo chamber of of
Unknown negativity. Yeah, I would say so. Echo echo chamber is definitely the word. There in I would even say a bit of Yeah. So it's interesting to see what Francois has to say about these watches before there was any reaction, positive or neg
Unknown ative. Yeah, and he I mean he knew and he talks about it. He knew people were gonna have strong reactions. I mean it's AP, he's been there twenty-five years, and he knows that if you do anything other than the Royal Oak, people are gonna have strong opinions.
Unknown Yeah, I mean I know when when you look and when you come into SIHH and you and you say that you're releasing a new line of watches that is the most important release for AP since nineteen seventy two in the Royal Oak, you're making a statement. For sure. And you know, to be fair, y while the the reaction was uh negative on one side for sure, um, you know, being the most talked about watch release at SIHH is winning no matter how we
Unknown no matter how you want to look at it. Aaron Powell Yeah, and it wasn't just at the show itself, right? I mean it was all over social media. You couldn't look anywhere watch related without seeing code eleven fifty nine. Oh for sure. I mean look at
Unknown you know the comments on our site and others and if you look at Instagram you can see that there was kind of a hive mentality developing among people who were following the release. And that's kind of a tragedy because I'm sure among uh the people reading the articles. Th wereere plenty of people who loved uh these watches and probably were ready to put down money for them. But I worry that you know you see something has become unpopular or not cool in the eyes of some and maybe you get a little bit gun shy when it comes to making the purchase yourself. Ye
Unknown ah. Well, just so everybody knows, we do talk about more than just Code 1159 with Francois. Uh we talk about his history at AP, uh his love of watches, his background in the fashion business, uh, and the fact that at one time he was the largest swatch collector in the world. Fun fact. That's definitely true. Um so with that, we'll uh we'll get out of the way here and let you enjoy the conversation. I'm your host, Stephen Pulverin, and this is Hodinky Radio. This week's episode is brought to you by Boehm and Mercier. Stay tuned later in the show for a look at the Clifton Baumatic Cosk, a high-tech chronometer that offers phenomenal value for money. You can also learn more at Boehm at Mercier.com. All right, thanks so much for joining us, Brand Scott. Good to see you. Good to see you too. We have uh John here as well, our uh senior editor. Very happy to be here. And uh Francois, you just got back to New York from Art Basel, right? Yes, I was in Miami for
Unknown the last five days. And how did that go? Pretty good actually. We introduced a new artist with the company, Tomas Araceno, who was an incredible mind. I got a chance to visit him in Berlin this summer to try to understand what it's all about and this is where you see people like me very grounded and people like him very flying. But but in a way that teaches us lessons about uh how to think different and how to be different. So it was a great experience. How long have you guys been working with uh with our puzzle? I think we're on our fifth year. We started in two thousand thirteen. Uh and I think we'll uh stay there for quite some time. That's been a good partnership for you guys, I think. Not good, great. It's been great. Okay, yeah. Great partnership. We are very pleased with the outcome and uh we try every year to be better at what we do. Uh we know already we who we're gonna work with in 2019. It's gonna be impressive. Uh the guy has again an unbelievable talent, completely different world. So I always say that when I look at the partnership that the best is yet to come. And and what do you think AP gets from being involved with with art bossel? You never know completely. It's not a perfect science. If it was everybody would do it, everybody would do the exact same thing. It doesn't work this way. It's much more. Every year is a new lesson. Every year we learn from our partnership, from the artists, from the talent. And it it brings us back to what the brand is all about. Never standing still, always look at tomorrow, what could be improved, foster talents, and uh see what the world has to of
Unknown fer. Well, spe speaking of looking to tomorrow, we're recording this in December uh on the eve of of H ten, right after Art Basel. Um but we actually showed up this morning to a surprise which isn't going to be out there till SIHH, which if you're hearing this, it's after SIHH. And if you don't, you will be dead by then. Right. If so, uh please come try to find John and me. We're somewhere. Um probab probably in a dungeon in uh the Valid de Jou. But uh we showed up this morning and there are two brand new So I'm gonna start by
Unknown saying two words. It's at last. That was a song from uh Ella James, but uh it's also it's finally it's uh it's something we've been working on for uh many years now. It's a complete new line. It's a new chapter in the history, hopefully in the history book of Oudemar Piquet. We're gonna launch that on the twelfth of January, so the day before this IHH worldwide. We'll have some teasing parts before, obviously. Uh the name of the watch it's code 1159, code 1159, biodemarpigue. And uh there are many, many things, but let's let's put it this way: Audemar Pigue has lived many more years without the Rylog than with. And we work on that collection, not being pushed by the clients because nobody has been asking us to create something different. Movement wise, yes. People were asking for the new integrated chronograph that we should have done and made for many, many years. It's it's it's here by the way. It's finally there. Perfect. Okay. But it was much more about creating a collection that would give the credit to Brenac O'Domarpigue that has been always looking at designs and way to look at watches in slightly different way compared to the others. And here we are, brand new collection, nothing to compare with, no inspiration from anybody else. Our own designers, our own team. So it's a new case, new movements, new everything, and bearing the name Code eleven fifty nine, but I will not tell you why today. They would have to find out. I won't share with you even though it's in January
Unknown . Okay. The casework just looking at these watches from a few feet away is really stunning. Can you tell us a little bit about what's going on with the cases? So pretty much we we
Unknown went to our own people and say, keep what you have in mind and what you've been working with for the last 10, 20, 30, 40 years, and push everything as fast as far as possible. So we want the first brief on the watch was it has to be almost impossible to copy. That was the first thing. And the second thing was every detail, every craft, every skill from our case manufacturers has to be pushed to the extreme. So the case is actually uh three parts. The lugs are attached in a different way, and the brief came also from all the tools we use today a phone, a computer, a TV, where there is no frame. Almost no frame. So no frame on a watch means no bezel. Now if you don't put a bezel on a watch, you have difficulties to put the glass or to attach the lugs potentially. So it's complicated. So we reduce the bezel to the thinnest possible diameter, if you want, and that gives a biggest opening on the watch. So even though the watch is 41 millimeter, it gives the fear that it's slightly bigger. The second part was the glass itself. The glass is double curved. So when I say double curved, you say, what do you mean? I got difficulties to understand myself when it came to me. Say, what do you mean double curved? So it's curved vertically from 6 to twelve and then spherically under all around the watch. But it's one piece of glass. So we went to see our manufacturer and our dial supply, the glass uh manufacturer. He looked at us and said that we were pretty much crazy. But he said, but that's what we want. So by having the glass the way it is, it gives the best legibility possible. It's not a loop at all, but it's like having and looking at the dial in four or eight K if it was a TV thing. And on the dial, we all again again push the details very far. Typical example. First of all, it's lacquered on the basic collection, which means the automatic and the chronograph. The dials are lacquered. When you lacquer a dial, nothing new, many brands have done it. You've got between eight to twelve layers of lacquer. Now just watching looking at it, you scratch it. So you got a lot of times where you have to throw them away because you barely looked at it. Then you have to apply the numbers, the indexes and the Arabic numbers. Okay, people have done it, nothing new. The tricky part was the logo. If you both look at your watches, the logos on watches are always printed. Okay? Because that's the way to do it. And we decided that we wanted the logo to be treated like the numbers or the indexes, meaning being applied. Now think about Oudemarpig, the length of the logo and the side of the letters in gold that you have to apply by hand. If you use a normal size, it will actually bent every time you do it. If it bends, you throw the dial and the logo to the garbage. You start all over again. It took us two years, no jokes, two years to find the right size and thickness to be able to have an applied gold logo by a human hand. And through the course of the access to feasibility from now two dials manufacturer, one gave up six months ago. So we got a call in the morning and the guy say, I'm out. He was throwing eight to nine dials for every ten dials made. He says, I'm out. We got very scared because when you have only one supplier, if anything goes wrong, you don't have the watches. Good news, he succeeded. The watches are actually made as we speak and we launch at the SIHH and we'll deliver the entire collection by the first week of February. Wow, so that's that's quick quick rollout. Yeah, and we're talking about 13 references, six calibers, out of which three are completely new. Wow. Which three calibers are those? So the automatic is a brand new one. Chronograph, integrated mechanism. Alléluia. Finally. Okay, it's there.
Unknown And uh self-winding tourbillon. Okay. And can you tell us the story of this chronograph movement? Because like as as you've alluded to, this is something enthusiasts have been asking for for years. This is this is big news.
Unknown No, no, it is big news at the same time. It's not the first time that AP makes an integrated chronograph mechanism. But to be able to reach the quantities, we gotta use with this new caliber. It's uh it was a challenge. Uh actually there is a story behind that. I became the CEO in May 2012. In October 2012, I put 40 people from the headquarter in a hotel room at the Hotel des Orlogis in Obrasu. Close the door. I was with them, and I said, now we are not gonna leave the room for bathroom, for eating, for anything until you guys give me an automatic and a chronograph mechanism. We entered the room at five PM and I was scared that it would actually stay the night or two days, but I gave my word that we nobody would leave the room. So imagine what could have happened. But we left the room at 9:50 9.15 p.m. that night. So in four hours and fifteen minutes, 40 of our top guys, top top brains, put together an automatic mechanism and a chronograph mechanism. True story, no lies. And it took us roughly five years to develop. So it was ready already two years ago, but because we wanted to launch these new mechanisms in a new case, the whole thing was slightly delayed. Okay. Which is why we're launching now in 2019
Unknown . Now I I totally understand the desire to do the chronograph, but you guys already had a very serviceable automatic movement. Can you tell me a little bit about why you wanted to make a new automatic
Unknown ? Because that automatic mechanism is not an automatic mechanism. We are buying these from another watch company and it's a good mechanism. We work with it for many, many years. But at one point, when you are a true watchmaker and you have to be able to come up with your own mechanisms. And in the future, Audubon Piguet wants to be able to pretty much manufacture all our mechanisms. I've seen already the development of what's gonna come for the next four or five years.
Unknown Very nice. And make these two sort of foundational movements for the brand at large going forward? Absolutely.
Unknown Absolutely. Actually on the automatic, in nineteen, the movement will already be in other watches. Okay. And the chronograph will have to wait a little while? Yeah, because it's it's it's tougher. When you when you launch new mechanisms, there is a it you can go from zero to ten thousand in two seconds. So you have to grow and grow it grow the quantities very delicately because if there is one single issue that comes, hopefully there won't be right now people don't know but I'm touching wood. Okay. Uh it's uh it it's it's complicated. So we have to we have to do it. You start maybe on year one with a thousand, then you go on year two with three thousand, year three, five, six thousand, and eventually ten thousand
Unknown Aaron Powell I mean in in the history of the watch industry, you know, if we look over the last you know hundred years, let's say, there were many years where really high-end watchersmak weren't developing their own mechanisms. There were, there were movements that were used kind of across the industry, whether these were LaMagna movements or other things, used in very high-end watches. But over the last 15, 20 years, we've seen a huge push for manufacturers to become integrated and to be developing their own calibers. How do you think that's changed the dynamics of the industry overall
Unknown ? First of all, in the history of Audemar Piguet, we've made many, many, many times movements for many other watch companies. Sure. And some of the best are there. And we look sometimes, you see those watches showing up at auction and we're seeing Odomapia in a different branded case. And still today we develop mechanism for the other watch companies. But what is what it has changed is the fact that brands were scared of the supply. And at one point we could actually have issues of not getting anything anymore from the major suppliers in the industry. So it was a twofold thing. One, the risk of supply. And the second thing is to get the complete legitimacy to to be able to show the world that if we are truly master watchmakers, that should be a non-issue. But what it created is many, many issues with the hundreds of suppliers in Switzerland because when you've got a wheel which is designed by Odemarpier, or wheel designed by another watch company, it's not the same, and for that wheel manufacturer somewhere in the in the Jura mountains or anywhere in the country, it's complicated. And it did affect somehow also the suppliers' business, because if you start to put something at work with a mechanism and the business slows down, which we've seen over the last seven years, then it's like a car crash, you know, when the first one then you got a complete uh uh how do you call it carambolage? Uh pile up. Pile up. Yeah. Yes. And that did affect many, many small suppliers in Switzerland that could have actually gone bankrupt. So that's what it created as well. And today the top brands we are getting closer to our suppliers, supporting them to make sure that tomorrow, one year, five years, ten years, they will still be able to do their job
Unknown . Yeah, I I think this this kind of hints at something else, which is somebody asked me recently if I thought that watches followed the same trends as fashion. If they they kind of worked alongside. And I was trying to explain to them that the development times for a watch are just so much longer that, you know, if if a fashion house shows a particular trend in spring, everyone else can kind of jump on board by next fall. It doesn't quite work that way for the the watch industry and how do you think that these long lead and development times and having to work with suppliers and really build these things over three, four, five, ten years changes how you have to think about the the creative process?
Unknown So, first of all, you cannot compare the high-end watchmaking with the fashion world. And exactly for what you said. Fashion goes now. When I start I work in the fashion business, when I was in the fashion business, we had two collections: spring, summer, full, winter. Now some brands have got six collections through the year. So it's it's the speed is impossible to we we can't we can't do that in the watch world. Watches should be compared to cars. When you have a new engine for a car and on the high-end world, it's five to seven years of development and billions of money invested before the car is actually made. So this is much more our world. That said, the time to develop has to shrink. And because of the evolution of the technology and the machines also we use, and the brains of our watchmakers or engineers, we know today that when five, seven years ago it would take five, seven, ten years, the new benchmark would be much more three to four. That would be the right time that we have to look to develop a mechanism from A to Z. Actually, I saw something last week, which I won't talk to you about, except I will just let you know that this is a major caliber for the Marpigue. And I've seen his newest version. So that caliber 4.0, not even 2.0. but 40 develop in 18 months and I saw the first working one in less than 18 months. So it's gonna go faster but never as fast as the fashion world
Unknown . Have you ever had the issue where you start working on a project and by the time it gets to the point where it's ready to launch, you have to majorly change it because it doesn't feel relevant or exciting or something anymore where the the development time actually forces you to change along the way to kind of like re-tack as you
Unknown go I would say yes for designs and and the outside of the watch not for the inside no never and i hope it won't it will not happen but for the outside sure the watch i'm wearing today on my wrist i killed it the day before the shh eig two thousand eighteen because I dunno seen it in real. I saw drawing, drawing, drawing, drawings, and at one point point the watch came. And I looked at the dial, it was a disaster. And it was supposed to be a big big news for the SIHH. I killed it the day before. And can you tell us about this watch real quick since our listeners can't see it? Concept chrono tourbillon automatic skeleton. So we made three series of twenty-five watches, twenty-f inive sky blue, twenty-five in white, and twenty-five in red. And I really killed the that collection right before this IHH. I said, we're not showing this, this is ugly. So you see things happen sometimes. Yeah. And the reaction at the headquarters was bad because everything was ready. The videos for the promotion, all the campaign, everything. Say no, we're not launching. Not good enough. And when we finally got the corrected version, which is the one I'm wearing now, and we launched in July, so six months later. Now it's I think as close as possible to perfection. It's really good and now the watch is great and it sells well and it's and it's people look at it and say I want one, which was the goal. So something some sometimes it happened that it's doesn't reach the the the the the requirement the level that we want when we see the product finished
Unknown . There's there's one watch that you had last year which I think at SIHH which I think was probably the coolest watch of the whole show. And I'm speaking of course about the RD two. Where is where is that along the way right now and is that something that someone will be able to purchase and wear eventually? It's coming. It's coming
Unknown . You know, it's it's there is a movie Field of Dreams with Kevin Costner. Yeah. Build it and they will come. Okay, so we built it and it's coming. Two thousand nineteen. Oh, very nice. Perfect. I think people are gonna be excited about that. Yes. Uh get ready because it's gonna be only a hundred watches. Okay. For nineteen. In platinum. Uh titanium and platinum. Nice.
Unknown Okay. This is this is something interesting, I think, at large, which is you know, the the Royal Oak is iconic and I hate I hate that word and it's way overused, but I think with the Royal Oak it is genuinely iconic. Um how do you keep that collection feeling relevant and doing new things like ceramic QP, doing things like the um uh two-tone all-white metals, like you're really breathing genuinely new life into this collection while still kind of respecting the things that make it unique. How do you strike that balance and try to keep it kind of both fresh and classic at the same time?
Unknown Because we want always to look at the Red Oak as being 45 years young and not forty five years old. In20022, we'll have the 50th anniversary of the Ryot. So we know obviously already what what's gonna happen by then. And it's gonna be a uh fireworks of uh innovation in design and in movements, you'll see. You guys should see the smile on uh Francois's face right now. But it's it's it's much more that I always say that if Jules Demar and Edouard Piget were alive today and being twenty five years old. First of all, they wouldn't live only in Switzerland. They would travel the world and as good as they would be with one watch, the following day they would already be on the next one. That's a notion of never standing still, that's a never that's a notion of always thinking tomorrow and say what could we do better? Now we made mistakes in the past, sometimes changing too fast or making the change too gimmicky, just a little color change and that was a new watch. Today we are we really stopped this, we go much more about in depth about the quality and we don't launch just to have the fun of launching something new. If it doesn't make sense, we don't do it. Since we are making only forty thousand watches, by the way, two thousand nineteen will be the last year at forty thousand, then we'll start to increase a little bit more. But it's all about the quality. And it has to be genuinely
Unknown And so you said that there were years where you felt like maybe things were a little gimmicky. That's changed. I mean I I remember the days when there was a new offshore limited edition every week, you know? And and the product portfolio got every day, every day. Every day? Okay. And and the portfolio just got huge. It was a new something, different colors, different straps, whatever. And now you've really as CEO really contracted the product portfolio. That must have been in some ways a controversial thing to do because it was it was working. These watches were selling, right
Unknown ? Yes, but we're losing the respect of the the the true watch collectors, they were actually blaming us on a regular basis. They were saying, You are doing too many of those, too many of this. It's we don't know exactly what's happening, and it's not right for the brand. So they were somehow telling us to protect the integrity of the company and the brand. And when I took over, and don't forget, I was one of the ones behind all these editions as well. Right. So yeah, yeah, no, no, no. I made my mistakes, it's okay. But it was much more done at that time in an opportunistic way. And when I came on board and I say we have to build the collection for years now. We cannot look at just launching a watch, it works one year and then it goes and we launch something else. First of all, it creates tremendous headaches in terms of production for after-sale service. So we decided to say no, we gotta put it in a complete different level. And that's what I say. Building everything on quality. Quality by definition lasts. Okay, so when you look at a rhyloc and a design, if we launch something new, it's not for one year. That doesn't make any sense. So I look at examples from other industries and we decided to go from over 500 references to roughly 150. Oh wow. And uh that happened almost overnight. So it was a shock in Switzerland because we were used to do so many different iterations. And but it has proven to be right because I think that over the last six years, the perceived value of the company has increased drastically. There is a lot more respect from the collectors and the people who don't know much about AP. We've got also a lot of a younger clientele coming to the brand. So again, knock on wood. I hope that we're gonna keep working
Unknown this way.
Unknown It does change everything because first of all by reducing the number of references, you get access to these references a lot more by definition. If you do 500 references and you make 40,000 watches, you've got 80 watches on the average per per reference. Now if you have only 150, that's changed the number, which means that when you launch a watch, it's actually seen in at least 150 points of sales in the world when before we launch a watch and nobody would actually see it or it would be lost in the collection. And then for production, after sell service, and all these kind of things, it's it's crazy. Because don't forget, we guarantee that we're going to service your watches for a minimum of 25 years. So every time you change something on a watch as small as an index or something, we have to control the orders for this specific index for minimum of 25 years. Imagine that time the number of references, time the number of years, and for decades and decades. Yeah, it becomes unmanageable at a certain point. Completely. And you lose the integrity of the brand
Unknown . And now I'll look at this week's sponsor. Last week we introduced you to the Clifton Baumatic Cosk from Beaumont Mercier. This simple time and date watch packs a lot of technology into an understated package. The watch' s40mm stainless steel case is extremely comfortable on the wrist, and its vintage-inspired dial is elegant without being too dressed up. The bright white color and the sharp elongated hour markers and hands make the watch very legible, while the crosshair detailing gives it a little bit of a vintage feel. The date window at 3 o'clock is subtle and I think even the naysayers will find it tough to argue with. Ultimately, the Clifton Bomadic Cosk is a thoroughly modern watch with classic mid-century styling that makes it a perfect option for daily wear. To learn more about this watch and the entire Bomadic collection, visit Bowmanmercier.com. Alright, let's get back to the show. One of the other things you've you've been I would say a little bit outs outspoken about is retail strategy and kind of pivoting the brand's retail strategy more to single brand owned automarpia boutiques as opposed to multi-brand retailers. Can you talk about that strategy and kind of how you you came to that idea? My true definition
Unknown of luxury is exclusivity. Luxury, that word has been used so many times by so many companies. You could buy a luxury coffee today, which doesn't make much sense, but luxury is exclusivity. The thing is, when you buy a song on iTunes today, for people who are still buying music, or actually you pay music on Spotify, whatever, but okay. It's 99 cents or 125. iTunes and Apple, by the way, knows who you are. They got your name, they got your address, they got your credit card information, and b and with artificial intelligence that pretty much know who you are, how much you could make a year because with a lot of tools today they could see where you live and they gotta see if it's an apartment, if it's a house, so how much you pay in rent, how much you own it for. There's so many things that would help you to get your clients a lot better. With the watch industry, we could sell items in the $10,000, $30, $40,000 range and not know at all who the clients were. Which is crazy when you think about it. We are today the last industry that does that. Talk about fashion, haute couture. Everybody knows the end clients. In the car industry, the brands know who you are, even though you vote retailers in between. So the watch industry were the sort of last category that was not addressing this correctly. We have to know where the clients are, we have to know when we make mistakes, we have to know if they're happy or not happy about the brand and what we how we deal with them. And the only way to do it is to go directly with them. Now, going directly with them doesn't mean that we cut the retailers, because today people think that I'm closing everybody on the planet. We are shrinking our distribution network, yes, but we are partnering with the best retailers on the planet to actually open boutique together. So it's it's I want this to be very clear. It's not about the end of the retailer, but it's less and less and less, yes, to give the best possible customer experience. And what role do you think online plays in all of this. So first of all we already sell online, except that my definition of online is on the phone. Yeah. Take our store in New York, in New York. Roughly fifty percent of the sales are done online, meaning on the phone. People don't go to the store, they call, do you have this, this, or that? Yes, send me your wiring instruction, I'll wear you the money, send me the watch. That's online. So I look at online being a new tool, not the end of the game where everybody would actually be sold online. But there are many places on the planet where we cannot reach actually everybody. And I understand why somebody who knows exactly what he wants, would actually love to be able to say, I want that specific watch, let me order it and ship me the watch and go, I'm gonna be happy. Now, obviously, we want to create an interaction with the people. And online is a good tool for that as well, because it could start with a I go online because I'm another Marpigue, I feel an ados and I want to find something, and then the brand's gonna be hopefully in touch with me. So it's a new tool, but not the end of the game and not only what we want to do, obvious
Unknown ly. And you know, you you talk about knowing your clients. What kind of additional value do you think you can bring to them by knowing them better? Avoiding all the mistakes we make on a daily bas
Unknown is So the stakes aren't high at all? No. No, but think about it for a second. When we look at launching a new watch, and let's say it's an expensive one. So expensive meaning between hundred and fifty to three hundred thousand, for example. We're gonna use the basic numbers. How many are we making? Oh we're gonna make twenty five. No. Okay, so no, we feel that there is much more potential. So we go straight to fifty. These are round numbers. If we pass 50, okay, 100. What does that mean? Nothing. What is the real true potential of a specific watch for a specific time? We don't know that yet. And actually by getting to know our clients better, we could figure out exactly what with the right number of watches to be made to keep the exclusivity and the integrity without affecting the fact that uh a lot, not a lot, but many people would want to get access to it. So we're gonna learn a lot more how to adjust actually volumes. We're gonna know much more how to adjust sometimes. We think, we think, because that's the way it is for any kind of companies, that if we give a five years warranty, it's good. And actually our five years warranty is a two plus three. Together, three additional years, you need to re register online. If you don you' dont't do it, get them. But let's put it this way if I'm the client, I say so I buy another map watch, I don't want to register, but I know that my friend registers getting five years. Why shouldn't get the five years anyway all those type of questions would be actually fair and there would be answers but when you start to enter interact with your clients you're gonna get a lot more solutions to your issues than if you don'
Unknown t. And and you think this data will be helpful in terms of actually affecting then it it will feed back and affect what product you're producing
Unknown ? Absolutely. People want those in th those interactions. We see this. Now there's a big difference being stalkers with our clients or butlers. And I love the fact that we need to manage them in a way that it's never too intrusive because how many um how many more emails you want to get every day? How many phone calls? How many so what did you think about your food today? Was it g no no no no no no but it's enough. There is a point where it's enough. But when they want, you have to respond immediately. You have to be available. And we are we are far from being done yet in terms of what we could do and how we could improve the customer experience. It's it's we're still all everybody's learning, and every day, and I'm a consumer of luxury, not only in the watch world but in in many many fields. Every day, most of the experiences done in stores or online are not at the level of what the brand should actually what the where the brand should stand for. So the good news is we can always do better and the one that will do it better quicker will be the one winning
Unknown . So what what are some of those things that you think luxury brands in in general, watches, fashion, auto, anything, what are some of the things you think they do on a daily basis that they should fix? What are what are the big mistakes? Ad
Unknown apt. Meaning get to understand what you're dealing with. I always say if John comes to our store and he comes on a Tuesday morning and that morning he dropped his kids to school and he's in a hurry. He's we got he's gotta come to the store in a mood A. We're gonna call that mood A. And I need to sense what's happening that day. I cannot bore him to death with a zillion things. It might be just passing by. He doesn't have two hours and have to adjust my selling speech. Okay, to him because I know that's what he needs right now that at that right second. Now imagine that same John. Okay, now it's 10 p.m. It's another map dinner. Now it's cool. There is no time. The kids are in bed anyway with a babysitter. You're with your wife, you are attending this dinner, and now I can adjust the speech to a completely different vibe. That's what it's all about. Too many times, salespeople are formatted and to respect certain. So you always gonna get uh yes, you want a cup of coffee, you want a water, can I what can I do for you, all these sentences, which I I understand, I don't like them as much. I always want to understand what's behind. And maybe if I'm gonna see John, which I'm looking at right now for the auditors, by the way, I'm looking at him, he's actually wearing a white shirt with a sort of beige jacket, which is quite elegant, brown shoes, pair of jeans, so he's casual, elegant. Um It's nice. I wouldn't date you yet, but it's no, it's kinda But it's kinda cool. And just that comment could actually break the ice and say, okay, it's not only about selling, it's about just adjusting to each client. And human beings are all different. So we have to be careful
Unknown . Yeah. I think you know, let's I wanna step out of kind of the the day to day and go back to kind of the beginning of of your entry into the watch world. So you've been with Automar PGA since 1994, correct? Yes, nineteen ninety-four. I'm getting so old. That's not why I did it, sorry. Um actually you did. But you're gonna be punished for that. That's okay. Again, please What back then drew you to coming to the watch industry
Unknown ? Uh actually nothing. I I got the job by luck. I was uh in Saint Bart on vacation and I met uh a friend. Um, I met someone sorry, I met someone on the beach in Saint-Bart that was actually in the watch world in Paris. And we became friends. We saw each other in Paris for six months without ever talking about watches, because I was not in the watch world, I was in the fashion business. And six months later, he took Audemar Piget for the French market as a distributor. And one dinner, he said, Francois, do you still like to work in the fashion world? So yeah, but I think that the distributors actually will actually fall apart because the brands will take over, you see? That was already nineteen ninety-three. And um he said, o,kay so why don't you come to Basel? Because at the time we were in Basel, not in Geneva, and say, meet the people from Oder Marpiga and if you like what you see um give me your job. And I told him, but I don't I don't know anything about watches, which was partly true because I knew about swatch. I was one of the biggest swatch collectors on the planet at the time. Yeah. Yes. But that was it. And actually, I'd never heard the name Odomapiga before, just to be clear. But when he offered me the job so I went to Basel met the people and said you know what yeah I like that I'm gonna start the funny thing is so my first day at work September 1st 1994 they wanted to put a rhyloak on me and he didn't like the watch at all. I said, no, I was much more vintage look, uh I done old Paul Newman. So it was very much vintage. I didn't want to have the modern things uh at all. And he said, no, but this is the watch. No, this is what you have to wear. So I don't like it. So I started to wear a very old square perpetual calendar, which gave me that vintage look, which I loved. And I wore it for six months. And slowly but surely, obviously, I started to fall in love with the right look and wore one, but not on my very first six months. So that was the beginning. And what was different then we're selling the watches by hand. My job as a salesperson for Odomapiga in 1994 was going physically to a store with watches in a suitcase, show a collection, and hopefully sell one or two watches. And if we are selling one or two watches to a retailer, it would be hallelujah! It was champagne, we gotta celebrate. That's how we started then. It was pretty much unknown in France. It was extremely expensive for the French public. And we are selling really one watch at a time. So when we look at today the new generation that comes to work for the Marpiga and they act like uh we won uh 10 World Cups in a row. We have to remind them that it was not always done this way. And old people like me suffered actually quite a lot to start to develop and promote the brand
Unknown . So obviously you are the CEO now, but between your time in France and being CEO in Switzerland, you actually ran the brand here in New York. You ran uh North America
Unknown . Sure. I arrived here in 1999 with my same very Brooklyn broken accent, broken Brooklyn accent, which I still have today. I apologize for that. And the brand was actually dead. Dead. I didn't start from scratch in the US. I started from minus three. Okay. No, no, no, no. Don't laugh. Some retailers threw me out of their store of their stores when I got to meet them. So I was in and this was this was less than twenty years ago. Yeah nineteen ninety nine. So I did a tour of the US at that time we had ninety five points of sales. We are selling watches for roughly six million of revenue a year, which means nothing. The age of the inventory was extremely old. We had a many, many uh quality issues. So when I showed up in stores, I said, oh, by the way, my name is François Benamias, and the C of Odemart. Say the retailer was saying, Odemarpilla, get out. So they're throwing me out of their stores. They didn't even want to talk to me. Okay, that's how bad we were, and the brand was. But when I was leaving the store, I say one day, one day, because I'm a very competitive person, say, you gotta beg to get this this this watch in your store. You gotta come back and say I want AP. It's gonna take me two, three, four, five, six. I don't care. But I couldn't stand the fact that without knowing me, people were saying out. We don't even want you in our world. So it took us 10 years to build a different brand, which it is today. And uh I'm pretty pleased with that the US market is still the number one market in the world for the brand, which is good because for many other watch companies you hear always East. But no no, it's still the US and I'm always very pleased to come back here to see what we've achieved. We've now a huge team, obviously. We started with eight people in nineteen ninety-nine. Now we got' eveighty-four people in the company. And since we are actually integrating a lot of new retail operations as well, it's it's it's a complete different uh brand
Unknown now. Do you remember a particular moment in the you know early 2000s when maybe you you had that moment where you said, okay, it's it's it's turning around. Like
Unknown this is this is the pivot point? The first one was the end of two thousand two thousand when we had the um auction the twenty fifth anniversary celebration at Christie's where we auctioned off thirty five watches worn by celebrities. We had Anul Schwarzenegger and Mohammed Ali, both in the room with Billy Crystal, Sean Stone, a lot of major names. And it was at the end of 2000, 2000, yes, and that was the very first time I say there is something. The following the following days, we got over 100 TV channels that report in spoke about the success of this charity auction. We raised over 1.5 million that night, which was huge for charity auction for a brand that was not that much known. And uh that was I think the beginning of the success of the brand here in the US
Unknown . um you know were there any lessons that you took from your t your time building the brand up here in the States to what it is now that you were that you've taken with you uh to Switzerland uh and are implementing on a larger scale now?
Unknown Yeah to be a better boss? No, no. I'm not joking now. I've been raised under a very Latin education. And when you are in France or in Italy or in Spain, when you're a kid and you uh the the rates the the the grades were from zero to twenty. So twenty obviously the best. I wasn't getting a lot of those, I was getting a lot of four, five, six, eights. And but the thing is if you'd get a four out of a twenty and the following week you would get an eight, you would still be a triple dope. Okay, so the the the teacher would say you're bad, you're nothing, you're worth zero, you will never succeed. And that does affect the brain of a of a child. When I moved here, so it was never good enough for anybody around me. Okay, so I was always complaining about the fact that it could be done better because I've been I was raised that way. And what I've learned culturally here is when you go from a four on 20 to 8, it's already better. And just the fact that you could tell kids or then later on your employees that they are doing better is a complete change of vibe. And I became a much better boss after the US than I was when I arrived here. That country taught me that lesson. And this is the biggest thing I took back with me in Switzerland. And I still use a lot of analogies of what I've learned here through my kids, through education and relationships that I'm using actually a lot there now. Should be proud of that actually guys. This is important moment. Uh I should see tears on your on your eyes. But we're we're both crying. Okay. Yeah,
Unknown we are do what what are I guess your your big goals going forward for Automar P Gay. What what if we talk to you on hopefully the show's still around? Um what if we if we talk to you in five years, 10 years, what what do you hope you'll be able to tell us?
Unknown That we are becoming more and more the brand of reference. That uh people will look at Oudemar Piget as the brand that will always be there, in a sense that if nobody was watch buying watches anymore and there was only one brand that they would actually go after, it would be Odomar Piguet. That would be the goal. That's this you built it in decades. That's not happening in years obviously but this is my my dream because I want to be able to say that even though y in five years I think you will be around because you're you're you're young and cute. So you gotta stay in that show for much more time. You can come back on the show anytime you want. But I'm getting old, so at one point I will stop. But hopefully, if I stop and ten years later, I'm invited to another map event somewhere, and I will look at it and say, Okay, the whole thing is still even better than I thought, and that would be the the reward
Unknown . And and how do you go about, you know, we you you talk about things that endure, things that last. How do you go about as as the CEO of a company, building a company, that when you do eventually decide to step aside, can continue to live and grow and kind of move in the direction you pushed it when you're not there
Unknown . I always go back to to what any company is is all about. It's people. You could be as good as you want on the technology you could be as good as you want on on this on this uh um uh techniques or uh or you be or you increase volumes or you would do anything but people. People are are always key. And whether you eight, fifty, two thousand, the culture of a company, that's what's gonna that's what's gonna make it last. And you cannot change all the time. It's impossible. Because when you think about it, in 2000 there were 200 employees at Odemarp worldwide. We are now 1,600. And that's the most difficult thing to work on every day, making sure that every single person at Odemarpigue, in any country where we are, understand why we are doing what we do, how we have to do it, and what are we doing actually at the end, and it's not if I to summarize that very quickly, it's not about just selling watches because selling watches, I could do this all day long and I could sell anything that way, it's building a brand that will last forever. And this is an everyday work. It applies to any kind of companies, any kind of business businesses. It always goes back to people. How you're gonna manage, care about them, and making sure they belong and they're not just passing through their career and their time and say it's it does they don't care, it could be any other companies, it's really the same thing
Unknown . You mentioned building a multi-generational um brand that will be around that will last uh you know for years and years to come. Um and that makes me just think about you know the family. AP is one of the very few remaining uh brands out there that is uh owned by the family that the the founding family. Um I think we are the last one by the way. You are the last one, in fact, you're right. Um you know how how how do how do you work with the family and and what role do they play in kind of in kind of you know taking that through uh from generation to generation first of
Unknown all the when we sat down together with the board when they gave me the position of CEO I said so what do you want from me? It was never about increasing revenue, it was never about increasing profitability, it was about lasting. It was about saying, okay, this is where we are, we've been in business since 1875, build the brain in a way that will still be here in 100 years from now. So it was not about numbers. And the way to do it was again, we go back to people. After that, they gave me a pretty much freedom, a good freedom to to do what I w I think was right. It doesn't mean that we always agree. We have our fights and sometimes we have to fight pretty hard because I if I if I strong belief on something I'm gonna fight as much as I can to get it done. At the same time, what I give to them as a credit is that brand never got close to not be there anymore to bankruptcy. So as much as sometimes I would want to go faster, they want me sometimes to go slower, is because, and I and I give them the credit, say you've been in business since 1875. So somehow, if the brand is what it is today, is a lot of things were done right. So this is where we have to balance the the being a little bit uh bullish or bearish. Okay, and that's the way it has been working for the the last six years. Jasmine Odomar told me three years ago, was because I wa I was asking her so, Jasmine, what do you want? Tell me what do you want? She said in a very English subtle way of saying things, she said, I don't think we have the place we deserve. And I told her, Don't say more. I know what I have to do now. Okay, it's clear. I I don't need to hear more. And that was her way of telling me what I should do for the forty years. And that's what we've been working on since
Unknown . So we're getting close to having to wrap up, but before we do that, uh you alluded to it earlier and I uh it's something I came in today wanting to talk about. Uh but that's your swatch collection. Can you tell us how you got interested in swatch and kind of how how you became one of the pre-eminent swatch collectors in the world? So So in
Unknown 1989, you you were not even born. Barely born. Barely born. Barely born. Okay. How old were you in 1989? I was just born in 1989. You see, I know everything here. Um there was a craziness about the scuba and the chrono that swatch. But it was crazy. Everybody wanted these watches. It started in Italy, really strong at the time I was working in the fashion world. And the Italians were driving me insane. Every time they were to come to France to say, find me that scuba, find me that chrono, find me that scuba, find me that chrono, I say, come on. And I said to actually fall in love with the whole thing. You have to understand Swatch was created in 1982. So in 1989, I was already seven years behind. And I've got a collector's mind. So when I put myself into something, I want everything and the day the day before. And I started to see how could I get the entire how could I get access to the entire collection? But in a swatch, you have to get the watches new because if they are worn, they could really be damaged and destroyed. And it took me three good years to find all the collections since 1982. So I found the watches from actually 1983 because they launched in 1982, but the first watches came in 1983. And they were very simple, reddish, uh khaki, uh, brown, and not very nice. But to find those new in 1989 was a big achievement. I do, I think at one point I knew all the references, all the single references by heart, because I was there was no internet then. We are not going computers. This is everything on the phone. I was talking to the world and serious the world to get access to the watches. Everywhere. To see where do you find this? Is this still in the box? And when I met Mr. Ayek on a TV show, on a TV set actually in France, he saw the collection because and he didn't know that I would be actually invited as well. And he saw watches that were not supposed to be actually in the collection because in certain auction or certain places you would get watches which were prototypes that were never supposed to be sold. I had some of those as well. Yes. So it was funny. Look at the collection and say, why do you get this one? And why do you get that one? Say you know it's you gotta do what you gotta do. So it we it it was a fun time and then they bought actually my collection. Oh, okay. Yes, in 1996. And the sad, the funny, sad thing is I sold them my collection in 1996, and their own collection got robbed the following day. Oh wow. Which means that I could have sold the collection for so much more. But they still have the collection, I know. Uh, and actually, I made a deal when I sold my collection. There was one one particular set that didn't want to get rid of it was the the watches made for the Olympic games in Atlanta in nineteen ninety six and at that time they were giving the athletes the gold version for the gold medal, the silver and the bronze. And they this while they went missing, obviously, because I was not at the Olympic Games. So when I saw the collection and it was maybe the the the Olympic watches were maybe thirty or forty watches because they were they had the same watch with the different flags of all the countries. And there was the watch of the security people on the stadiums. So there are many things. But I was missing the gold, silver and bronze. So say I'm selling you my collection, but you have to sell me those. And I still have that as a frame in my house in Switzerland, which I'm very proud of. So Atlanta Swatch Collection 1996. That's amazing. And so you had every reference? Every single one. O
Unknown ver twelve hundred watches. Is Swatch still something you you
Unknown follow at all, even if you're not collecting it? Not as much anymore, but I always look because for me it's I always loved that brand for what it was bringing to the world and this freshness freshness. Can we say that? Yes. And um and the fact that you could actually sell something in plastic for 50 francs, 50 francs, French francs at that time, which is now let's say it would be seven dollars. Oh my gosh. Or eight dollars at two days. Okay. And uh and they were really creative. It was it was bringing fresh air to the watch world. So I've always given a lot of respect to that brand. And I I said I've got that frame in my house and that's it's only good memories. Only good memories
Unknown . Well Well, I think with that we'll we'll transition. We we finish every episode with a a little bit of a lightning round and then a recommendation. So I've got just a couple quick questions to ask you and then we'll uh wrap things up. Okay, so first question, no. Second question., yes Third question, maybe, and fourth question, twenty-four. Perfect. Yeah, we're done. All right. Um what uh what's a watch you've seen that that has caught your eye recently? Something that you've you've seen in really uh It's not a watch. I've se
Unknown en a movement development. Okay. Like four days ago? Okay. That will come obviously in one of our watches. Yeah. Okay. You will see this in two it's ready. Okay. But you'll not see it before 2021. Okay. But when it comes, remember that day. It's it's it's it's on record now. So it's it's uh remember that day. You will say, o oohoh,, it's a good one. All right, John, we gotta stick around then. We're gonna mark my calendar for 20 minutes. No, no, mark your calendar because I can it's again. People who know me well, I don't say things just slightly for the fun of it. What I saw
Unknown . Mmm. Yum yum. Perfect. What's uh what is the best place you've traveled in the last year?
Unknown Wow. I don't know. Actually, uh Soto Grande, it's in the south of Spain. One hour from Marbella. It was a very secluded place, houses on the golf course, some of the best golf courses on uh in Europe. It was a fantastic vacation time, quiet, no phone, just uh my wife and I, and we had the maybe the best vacations ever.
Unknown Perfect. What's uh what's the best piece of advice you've ever been given and who gave it to you
Unknown ? The best piece of advice. Always go back. It's no I'm not gonna say it's not it's not the right way of saying it. It's it's goes goes back to people. Never look at people down, up or down. At least at the end we're all human beings and and it's it's just a way of behaving with people in general. I was teaching golf because that was my first job and I was giving a golf lesson to a listen to this. It was Chinese from Belgium Jewish. Okay? Okay. Okay. And the guy was so nice. He he was in the diamond business and was teaching uh golf lessons. He was a small, small person, short, very thin. And he was always because I was I wanted to learn every time I didn't like school, but I always love to learn. And I was asking him when I was teaching him golf to give me lessons about business and life and he says never ever look people up or down and people will make you either successful or they're gonna make you fail drastically. So always remember that. And that stuck to my mind, say this is what have what drives me. I love people and I want people to succeed. I want to grow people and the best advice I give to people is too many times because of our youth and the way sometimes we're raised, we have issues with self-confidence, trust in what's gonna happen. I've got two kids already, so I know uh I can talk to them and say, Yeah, it's believing yourself because I've been told too many times when I was young that it would actually be a failure. I've heard it a zillion times, I would never succeed, I would never be good at anything. So if today I run a watch company with does over a billion in sales and uh uh with uh sixteen hundred employees, if this is the definition of failure in people's mind, I'm I I'm okay with that.. You're doing all right Yeah.
Unknown Um what's uh what's your guilty pleasure? Do you have a guilty pleasure? Yeah but this I cannot share. All right. So it's a very guilty pleasure Um great. Well then we'll finish things up with uh with a cultural recommendation. Is there uh is there a book or a film or a place you've gone or something that you want to recommend that our uh listeners go take a look at when the uh when the show is over
Unknown first of all I don't read books because I read enough things and I don't have time and I don't want to read books, so people could look at it and say, Whoa, but that's not right because you should read books. Maybe when I get older. Um movies, I'm not gonna I'm gonna talk about anything new because there are few movies that really sta stayyed and will forever in my mind. One of them is Awakenings, Robert De Niro and Robin Williams, 1981, I think. I could still watch the movie uh again and again and again, it makes me cry all the time. Beautiful story, again, between people. Um, but in terms of culture, I'm I'm always very open-minded with what's going on in the world. When I was living in the US, I was a big Broadway fan. I see uh yesterday I arrived in New York. We went to see the illusionists, okay, just to see the way the way that show was. There was a Chinese American actually, I think it's Chinese American just got just one America's Got Talent. Which for me, I've never seen this close up that close, and to do what he does with his hands is beyond. And it's always about talents and w emotion they're gonna deliver. So whether it's in uh music, uh movies or or performances, I'm always open to new things. And there's not a specific one I want to talk about. It's much more get keep your eyes open.
Unknown Perfect. John, uh what uh what would you like to recommend to people? Uh I'm going to recommend uh a Netflix series, uh one that maybe a lot of people have already seen actually. It's uh the Great British Baking Show. Oh yeah. Which is like it's fantastic. You know, it's incredible to so if you are unaware of it or haven't seen it yet, you should check it out. Um they're not baking like apple pies and little tarts and stuff. They're making insane kinds of uh you know, really um uh really intricate things that sometimes are quite high and uh like depict animals and stuff like that. Just like crazy, crazy baking uh, as only I guess British people can do. Yeah. And it's like kind
Unknown of a feel good show too. It's like very it's a competition, but like way too cooperative. Yeah. Yeah. It's fun. Um
Unknown sorry, sorry, d talking about that. Some there is one show that you guys should actually watch. Have you seen the HBO series on Serena Williams? No, not yet. Five episodes. Watch because people sometimes look at her when she competes, and here at the US Open there were some uh some uh struggles, I would say. You watch the show and you start to understand what's behind that incredible woman and champion. And you see the behind the scenes. And I would challenge, really challenge anybody to say no what deal what she dealt with around giving birth and her career and getting married and everything that goes with and come back as good as she is now. Welcome on board. Being thirty-six now, she's thirty-six years old, I think. Thirty-five, thirty-six. Uh we saw her in Miami, by the way. She's in great shape. And when you watch the show, you understand the depth of what a true champion means. Perfect. Great.
Unknown Great, thank you. Um yeah, I'm gonna recommend a book that I recently started rereading that I read for the first time many years ago, uh, called Scoop by Evelyn Wah. Um, which is kind of like this is kind of an inside baseball recommendation because it's a book that like every journalist reads at some point. Uh and it's basically about how absurd journalism is. Um I knew I'd get you on board. Yeah. Um yeah, it's just it's fantastic. It's about this like total boondoggle of a reporting trip that all these journalists take to what might be an African Republic and might actually just be a giant, essentially like PR op. Oh my god, I have to read this. It's completely absurd and fun. It was written in the 1920s, I think, and it's it's really hysterical, and I forgot just how funny and incisive it is. And you know, with all the conversations Aaron P
Unknown owell You know what I love about your generation is that when actually Or not even thirty yet. Not not quite. Not quite yet. Okay. Um, that you say, yes, something I read a long, long time ago, it sounds like you read something like twenty five years ago when it was maybe six weeks ago. But I Yeah. No, your notion of time is actually very special. Uh all right
Unknown . It's probably like eight or nine years ago. I guess I can't does that count? That count. Okay. That counts. Okay. Okay, o.kay, Okay okay,. f Fineine. Um thanks so much for joining us. It's good to get to sit down and talk to you. I know you're a busy, busy, busy man. I know I had a great time with you guys this morning. Great. Thanks so much. See you again soon. Okay. Bye. This week's episode was recorded at Autumn PGA's headquarters in New York City and was produced and edited by Grayson Corjonen. Please remember to subscribe and rate the show, it really does make a difference. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next week.