The Business of Watches [006] Audience Q&A Special With Hodinkee's Editor-In-Chief James Stacey¶
Published on Wed, 12 Nov 2025 16:00:00 +0000
Andy and James answer your questions on watch pricing, surging Swiss watch exports to the U.K., what to consider when buying your first 'nice watch', and what Halloween is like in Switzerland.
Synopsis¶
In this special Q&A episode of "The Business of Watches," host Andy Hoffman, Hodinkee's Senior Business Editor in Geneva, is joined by James Stacey, Hodinkee's Editor-in-Chief, to answer listener questions about the watch industry. The episode, sponsored by Panerai celebrating the Year of the Luminor, covers a wide range of business and market topics affecting the global watch industry.
The discussion begins with how current market downturns affect small and emerging watch brands differently than established independent makers. They explore Omega's pricing strategy and Master Chronometer certification, examining how the brand has moved upmarket while remaining more accessible than competitors like Rolex. Questions about perpetual calendar watches under $20,000 lead to recommendations including Frederique Constant, Jaeger-LeCoultre, and vintage IWC options.
A significant portion of the episode addresses the volatility in Swiss watch export data, particularly the unexpected 15% spike to the UK in September. Hoffman explains how U.S. tariffs have created a roller-coaster effect in export statistics, with manufacturers redirecting inventory and retailers diversifying away from U.S. concentration. The hosts also discuss how economic downturns affect large conglomerates like Swatch Group, Richemont, and LVMH differently than independent brands, noting that ultra-luxury makers like Patek Philippe and Rolex remain largely insulated while mid-market brands face greater pressure from discretionary buyers reconsidering purchases. The episode concludes with advice for first-time buyers of premium watches, emphasizing research, understanding secondary market values, avoiding unnecessary complications, and focusing on personal style over investment potential.
Links¶
Transcript¶
| Speaker | |
|---|---|
| Andy Hoffman | This episode of the business of watches is brought to you by Panorai. 2025 marks the year of the Luminore, a celebration of bold Italian design, technical innovation, and the legacy of Panorai's most iconic collection. Welcome to the business of watches where horology meets high finance and each tip tells the story of markets, margins, mishaps, and mechanical mastery. I'm your host, Andy Hoffman, Senior Business Editor at Hodinky. In this series, we dive deep into the global watch industry, a place where centuries-old craftsmanship intersects with billion-dollar valuations, executive brand strategy, and investor speculation. From Swiss valleys to Silicon Valley, we trace the movements shaping this uniquely resilient sector. Just how big is the business of timekeeping? Well, some estimates place the entire watch industry from ultra-luxury maisons to smartchesw andat micro brands at north of $100 billion globally. But behind that figure is a complex web of legacy, innovation, and ever-shifting consumer tastes and demand. This is the podcast for collectors, analysts, watch buyers and sellers, and anyone who's fascinated by the intersection of wristware and wealth. Because if time is money, then money is most certainly time. So let's get down to business. So this week on the business of watches, we are going to do something a little different. We are going to hear from you, our amazing listeners and supporters, and we're going to try and answer some of your watch industry business related questions. I'm your host, Andy Hoffman, Senior Business Editor at Hodinkie in Geneva, and today I am joined by a very special guest, James Stacey, the editor-in-chief of Hodinkie. James, welcome. Hey Andy. Thank you for coming on the podcast. How are things over there on that side of the pond |
| James Stacey | ? Things are great, man. Happy Halloween. Things are real spooky over here. It's a dark and rainy sort of night. I think it's gonna be uh a bit of some wet trick-or-treating, but I'm looking forward to the chance to go out and enjoy it. It was always a highlight when I was a kid. And uh is I, you know, I want let's start the questions off with this. One, is Halloween really big in as big in Geneva as it is in uh in Canada and the States and two, what what are you going as tonight? Right. So the answer is no. |
| Andy Hoffman | It is not as big a holiday, but in the time that I've been here, uh about 10 years or so. It has certainly become more of a holiday and more of an event that people celebrate and recognize. For this evening, I will be dressing up as a uh someone who sits on their couch with their partner and and has dinner and watches a movie uh which is a very good question. Or any movie planned or or has it been picked just yet? We have not p |
| James Stacey | icked the film just yet. What can I recommend? Later. Yeah, what would you recommend? Let's see, let's see. William Friedkin's Sorcerer is is probably the move for Halloween. Oh, that's right. It's pretty intense film. We could go lighter if you wanted. It's a it is a Friedkin after all. |
| Andy Hoffman | I'm I'm up for intense. I'm up for intense. But But it's it's a good one. That's great. Well th thank you for that. And I will uh I will see if that is available in Switzerland. Well fingers crossed. So we should get down to business because that is why we are here. So, what we're gonna try and do is answer business related questions from listeners that um you put out the word on Instagram, and uh we got a whole bunch of great questions. So yeah, why don't I get you |
| James Stacey | to start off with the first question? Absolutely. Yeah, we got a handful of great ones from the Instagram. So always keep an eye out as I think you know it's it's usually CEO interviews and those of And I think there's a lot of interest in this at a general level, and and I'm here to kind of uh facilitate or represent to a certain extent the audience, which of course I do number among. So yeah, let's kick off the first question here, which is from Doc Thrillman, who says, How does the current downtrend in the market affect small or newer uh Holt or allergy brands? Yes. |
| Andy Hoffman | Well, indeed, we we will confirm and acknowledge that there is a downtrend in the market. It is very much a different time than the the post pandemic era boom, which was sort of the most unprecedented increase in demand and interest for watches that we've seen. But we're we're still in a very elevated place for that. And so how does that affect you know newer small high-end watch brands? So I mean I think it's interesting in in some ways a smaller brand that has at least already gotten notice. Um, you know, you think of someone like Simon Brett uh or obviously Rec Shep Rec Sheppy uh and Acrivia, someone like that who has interest and profile. I mean, these are brands that are making, you know, 50 to 100 watches a year. And so when interest and demand and you know, the size of demand and the audience that is buying high-end watches shifts and maybe downshifts a bit as people spend their hard-earned money on other things or look for other kinds of experiences. For a small brand like these, the change isn't that much. They've got their core audience, their core customer base who are buying you know, who can fulfill that demand for fifty to a hundred watches a year. Right. Even someone like MBF, you know, um 400 watches a year there. I mean, Max has been around 20 years with that brand now, and the audience has grown, the customer base has grown. And so in the absolute boom era in 2022 and 2023, they couldn't keep anything around. The demand was so high. Right. But now the production size is such that the audience is still there. Where we see difficulty is in smaller brands who have you know yet to establish a high profile, who have yet to sort of you know gain that mainstream interest. And when they're trying to find that buyer for the five hundred or one thousand or two thousand or up to ten thousand watches that they make a year, when the market demand turns down, that becomes much more difficult. So we do see that with some of the smaller brands who aren't as well established at this point. A |
| James Stacey | aron Powell Right. And I I think the other thing that at least jumped to my mind when I read this question was with some of these small brands and you list, you know, brands like Rechep Recepi, Burneron, you know, et cetera, even if there is a downturn, depending on the delta of the downturn, they might have orders that span it. So they may be able to bridge a low point or even a a low season or two without that much work. And then with some of these guys, I mean, it's one thing to have the orders or the allocations. It's another thing to have an you know a Gmail inbox full of people champing at the bit to pick up one of those allocations if if somebody decided they didn't or couldn't couldn't afford it at that point in their life. So there there is a little bit of an insulation when you have, like you said, that kind of fan base. And if you haven't developed that yet, and then you have to go through a time like this, it could be harder. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, yeah, we |
| Andy Hoffman | had we had Sylvan Ben on the show um a few episodes ago to talk about, you know, the business side and how he's managing that of his business. And indeed, I mean, you know, he's sold out until you know a few years down the line. And so when things turn down, it's actually an advantage for a small producer like that because they have better access to the components and parts that you know they were fighting to get previously because obviously the sm you know the smaller player that you are, you're making fifty to a hundred watches a year, you're not gonna have as much influence or status with the supplier who's maybe selling you know similar parts to one of the the giant uh names in the industry who's buying |
| James Stacey | tens of thousands of parts. Right. Yeah, that makes sense. Good question, Doc Thorman. That's a that's a solid one to kind of kick off the show. Let's jump into the next one from Clark Maxwell. Shout out Clark. Do you think Omega's master chronometer and iconic lines like the Speedmaster and Sea Master justify the price slash cost in the marketplace. This is an interesting one because it's a little bit closer to the product zone than just the normal, you know, sort of uh like a a business question directly. But I think it's also fascinating because, you know, Omega makes a ton of watches, you know at least on paper the second biggest and most prolific watch brand in the world as they're well known and they make a lot of different models but you know I think Clark probably has been around I've I've definitely recognized the name and that sort of thing from Instagram has been around for a while. And Omega has has really come up market and over the course of the last, I mean, decade. You could probably compress it into less than a decade as they kind of went towards Rolex and opened up a gap in the in the swatch system for other brands to kind of fill in. Yeah |
| Andy Hoffman | , I think that's exactly right. And indeed we have to think, I mean, we are talking specifically about Omega here, but what we're really talking about is price, right? And what we've seen in the past few years, post-uh-pandemic era boom, is that we've seen some brands really take a lot of price. And there's many reasons for that. Obviously, there's inflation is has become ansue in the marketplace for the first time, real inflation for the first time in a long time. Also, the Swiss franc and all these watches are deemed Swiss made, and the Swiss franc has continued to strengthen against various currencies. And then just you know, labor costs, all these costs in general have increased. And so we've seen a lot of brands take a lot of price. And Omega has been one of them. However, I think you're exactly right. You know, when we think about who Omega sees as its competitor in the marketplace is Rolex. And if we think about the equivalent time pieces at Rolex, so we're talking about a speed master we're talking about a Daytona and you know what is a speed master professional cost now the eight seven eight thousand depending on the on the glass that's still quite a bit cheaper than a Daytona. Right. Of course. Availability is a different question, but it's a similar equation with the Seamaster, with the diving watch and the submariner. It's still if you you know believe in and what you know Mega would certainly tell you that the quality of their product is at the same or if not a higher level, and many people say that the the coaxial movements are are uh superior movement to what um some other competitors are doing. So yeah, they're getting closer in price. But I think the issue that people have is that we've seen price move quite quickly in a short period of time. And many people could say, well, I can remember when a Speedmaster was five thousand dollars. And and it's not anymore. And |
| James Stacey | that's just the new reality. Yeah, I and I also think over that span of time not only did the price go up but they they invested a lot in movement architecture we saw them go from coaxial modified you know 2500 base movements to in-house coaxial movements hand wound movements that are using the master chronometer certification, then the adoption of Metas and this sort of thing. And I think you know, we've seen them kind of progressively up the ante on the quality and technical attributes of the movements. And you know, I don't want to sound glib about it, but they don't seem to be having a tough time selling watches. And I see in many ways, C Masters and Speedmasters on both sides of what I would call the you know market divide, both on enthusiasts and on general buyers, people who might only know James Bond, people who might only have wanted to spend some money at the, you know, at the duty free and that was available and maybe the Rolex that was also on their list certainly wasn't. Yep. Uh so I think in many ways, yeah, the price has gone up, but you have to credit them. I think even their most in-demand watch that I can remember in the recent history, the white dial Speedy, even that one, while maybe difficult to get, was not one where you were waiting years, I don't believe, certainly not, uh, in in the feedback that I've been given, anecdotally, of course. But these are watches that that are gettable if you're patient and and certainly I think it's nice that a brand of that profile and and that's making a watch at that caliber. And look, I've I owned 1120 Seamasters. The modern stuff is better on every single measure. I might prefer a sword hand to a skeleton hand, that's just me. But the new stuff, the new Speedmasters, the new Seamasters are a higher quality watch than I think what they were making when they were more in the tutor, Tutor plus price category. And certainly I think the Planet Ocean was the thing that really kicked that off, this sort of next generation of their manufacturing. Right. And I think we've seen that now kind of reflect into a lot of different watches. And then you have the stuff that stacks on top of it. Like, you know, they just released the latest generation of the Dark Side of the Moon models where they're taking the Speedmaster idea and really making it a truly modern ceramic and and the rest of it. So yeah, I don't I don't think the pricing feels out of line for 2025, but I can understand if you came to the brand in say 2008, 2010, to be able to see the scope of that difference could feel jarring or or even if you were more at home with the brand in the eleven twenty era, it's it might be a little bit more difficult to figure out an eighty five hundred or something like that now. Yeah, totally. But I mean I think uh |
| Andy Hoffman | y you bring up a good point in that, you know, although there are many, many models and some would say too many SKUs for some of those models for Omega, we do see innovation, we do see iterations, we do see new technology and newness and and innovation there. And so yeah, I mean, you know, we had George Kern from Brightling on the podcast a few episodes ago and and, you know, he talked about price, and he said you can continue to raise price, but you have to offer the consumer something new and something, you know, value for that price increase. And so I think yeah, Omega is is certainly doing that. And uh but yeah, you know, people complain about about prices. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Should we jump in the next question, which I can find us here? Yeah, let's do it. Uncoverist has a somewhat related question, and they say: what is the best perpetual calendar watch under $20,000? Now, I'm not really a perpetual calendar watch kind of guy, and I'm not sure that that's your style of watch either, James. But I mean, you know, this is the sort of pinnacle of uh complications for many in the watch world and uncover us is asking what's the best one under twenty thousand dollars. So I mean, you know, in the last episode we just had on the CEO of uh Frederic Constant, the Swiss based brand originally of sort of Dutch origin. And you know one of the sort of pillars of their highrology manufacture aspect of their business is a perpetual calendar which is under $10,000. And he talked about how difficult that is to achieve. And um especially these days, the stronger Swiss franc, uh higher labor costs, et cetera, et cetera. But it is a extremely important sort of price level and number that they wanna keep that um model It's just a psychological number there. And that's what they do. So they work hard and they basically, as the costs increase, they basically take less margin because they think it's very important for the brand. to do so So Frederick Constant is certainly uh when it comes to price is is one of those brands that um can offer you some value across various models for a perpetual calend |
| James Stacey | ar of well under twenty thousand. Yeah, I would agree. I think Frederick Constantine is the one that that leaps to mind. You know, I believe Furlon Mari is in the process of of figuring out a number in a in a serially produced, you know, option for a QP that we've seen from them in the past. The one that leaps to my mind isn't twenty anymore, but when it came out, I was at the launch in Vegas many years ago. I think it was actually first time I hung out with Ben, was the JLC Master Ultra Thin. Nice. It was just under 20, but we're talking like 2014, 2015. So you'd have to adjust for that. This this the steel model black dial. I think an incredible watch. If you're going to spend $20,000 on a watch, I think JLC is a nice way to do it, especially in something kind of traditional and at the same time like watchmaker-y, which is of course the JLC's kind of raison d'etre. And uh yeah, I think it's a great watch. I just I'm assuming it's a gonna be a little bit more than that now brand new. Uh you know, we're we're recording this over Zoom, so I can't turn on the VPN that allows me to see USD pricing. Right. Uh it'll disrupt our our phone call, but I'm seeing like 40,000 Canadians, so that's probably in the twenty-eight to thirty range for something like that. Who knows? I mean I I mean, that's gonna give you the range for for that anyways. Yeah, I I think if I was in the market and I would love to be a perpetual calendar guy, the reason I'm not is because most of them are more than twenty thousand dollars, right? I do think it's a fascinating complication and one of my favorite to kind of dig into the history of. Sure. I do think there's some pretty compelling options in the secondhand world as well. The JLC would be an option. Uh Baum at Mercier made a uh QP Clifton, which I think was in the mid-20s, depending on on case material. Mont Blanc also had a uh a model uh for theirs in the heritage line. I don't know the real world pricing for that, but it would be worth checking because I think it's kind of a nice looking watch. It's in the same aesthetic space as the as the JLC. So yeah, I I think there's some options out there. You don't have to be, you know, pinned down by the Vacherons and the Pateks and and that sort of thing. But it's definitely it remains a flagship for e even when you hit a price point like Frederick Constant can, it's still their flagship because of the complexity. Absolutely. Yeah. No, it it remains |
| Andy Hoffman | the sort of center of the complication world for many. And indeed, I think one when we're talking about secondary uh market options, I mean IW |
| James Stacey | C Oh yeah, the uh GST series. If you if you can do forty-three, forty-four, forty-five millimeters, there's a lot of options there. That and you don't even I like the big pilots, they're very big, but they're some of them are quite colorful and cool. But yeah, the the stuff from the GST line, they made some neat models in there as well. Yeah, and but on the more dressy side, you know, |
| Andy Hoffman | vintage um Da Vinci models you can find those in I think in in Precious Metals, Perpetual Calendar, certainly under 20,000, I think. So there's some good value there. |
| James Stacey | For sure. Yeah, cool stuff. Good question. Absolutely |
| Andy Hoffman | . We're proud to have Panerai supporting the business of watches. For this episode, we're spotlighting the new PAM 01574, a Luminar GMT power reserve in a sleek 44mm black ceramic case. It features a sandwich dial, dual-time functionality, a three-day power reserve, and Panerize new click-release strap system for easy swaps. This reference represents Panorai's forward-thinking approach to its Luminar collection, combining heritage, high-tech materials, and bold design. And it's just the beginning. Expect more exciting Luminar launches throughout 2025. Alongside the depths of time, a historical showcase taking place this October at Casa Panorai, Madison in New York City, and this November at Panorai, Miami Design District Boutique. Experience never before seen archival pieces and exciting novelties up close. Learn more at Panorai.com or check the show notes. Thanks again to Panorai for their support of the Business of Watches. And now back to our special Q |
| James Stacey | . Alright, next up we've got a question from Time the Destroyer. Good tag there for Instagram. He says uh Swiss watch exports rose fifteen percent to the UK in September. What do you think is behind that relatively huge spike? So this is a |
| Andy Hoffman | great question and it's quite interesting and and strange. I mean so you know this year uh you know starting back in twenty twenty was twenty twenty and obviously the market was completely disrupted. Beginning in 2021, you know, Swiss watch exports have been hitting record levels by value year after year up until last year when they declined uh slightly for the first time since then. This year has been just an absolute roller coaster and if you're trying to track the Swiss watch export statistics from month to month, and that's all because of tariffs. So in, you know, we're coming along in the year that we thought was going to be perhaps slightly better or, you know, certainly at the same levels as as as 2024. And then the tariff situation happened in the United States. So we saw a massive surge in Swiss watch exports to the U.S. beginning in March and April, as manufacturers tried to get product to retailers to avoid. At that time, I think it was a 31% tariff, and then it kicked in to be a 10% tariff for a while. And um things kind of normalized a bit. And then when we had the latest announcement of tariffs and so yes, it's October thirty first, it's Halloween right now. And so as of today, it's a thirty nine percent tariff on Swiss goods imported into the United States. And so in August this year, before those tariffs kicked in, we saw a massive spike in Swiss watch exports to the U.S. And so now in September we saw a massive drop in Swiss watch exports to the United States. And so one of the strange standouts though of that report for September was this big jump in exports to the UK. So the UK and the US are very different watch markets. Obviously, the UK is extremely mature market, very well educated, quite well uh in terms of watch knowledge, and certainly um well established lots of retail locations, et cetera. And so that market has been sort of flat or not particularly strong for the past um little while. And so I think maybe what's happening there is that you know the U.S. market is obviously pretty well supplied after we've seen these various surges in exports to the US. And so I think that retailers, whether they be you know, Boucher, Turneau, or Watches of Switzerland, which is the parent company of Hodinki, you know, when they're taking delivery of watches, perhaps watches that were destined originally for the United States are maybe now going to the UK. And obviously, you know, um retailers and brands are trying to be a little more diverse and not as concentrated in the U.S. as they have been. The U.S. is still the biggest single country market for Swiss watch exports, but obviously that's it's a market that's in flux and under pressure because of those price changes. So that may be one of the reasons, but we also saw mainland China and Hong Kong have a quite a you know substantial jump in September. So um, you know, and that gives people some hope that, you know, maybe the the Chinese market is finally starting to recover a bit because it's been very weak for the past |
| James Stacey | , you know, eighteen months, two years.. Absolutely. Yeah I I don't think I can put it better than that. I think that's a a pretty succinct answer to uh to what's an interesting question and sort of a uh an evolving scenario that's based more in what's happening outside of the UK than necessarily what's happening inside, which is uh which is fascinating. So a good question uh for sure. I mean |
| Andy Hoffman | that yeah I mean the you know the obviously the manufacturer most of you know this obviously the Swiss manufacturers are here but it's a global market and you know, where the watches are exported to um shifts over time as certain markets become more important for sure. But let me ask the next question, which is from Lori D. And they ask, with the economy worsening post COVID, do you see it hitting the big groups like SWATS, Richmar, LVMH, or the Indies? So you, know, when things turn down economically, who is more vulnerable and who gets hit harder? Is it the big groups or is it the Indies? Do you wanna take this one, James |
| James Stacey | . What do you think? I mean, I I can definitely kick it off. I think I think this would be, you know, one to rely on on the kind of data that you track quite carefully. But I think the last few years have been tough for a lot of the big groups, especially trying to decide what to do with the resources and spoils that they used to appreciate out of China, which in many ways have diminished or in in some brands the doors almost closed entirely. And a very, I think an almost not surprising, but uh uh probably the speed at which it happens is difficult for an industry as slow as Swiss watches, but catching up with the fact that America became kind of the number one market and then at the same time we have this trigger of the tariff uh on the product. So there's uh it's a obviously a complex scenario. I'm not an economist, but I I think I would be if if I had to pick a a chessboard to be playing, I would prefer to be, you know, in independent with flexibility and awaiting customer base than a uh a large-scale, you know, conglomerate that has to deal with not only distribution, but also now warehousing theoretically watches around uh parts of the world to try and preempt what what could happen you know in the news cycle of a given day. Is that off base? Is that am I only seeing one slice of it? |
| Andy Hoffman | No, I think that's that's exactly right. And and indeed, you know, we obviously Swash, Richemont, LVMH, you know, the big uh groups. I mean, these are all publicly traded companies. So we can and they break out the performance of their watch brands to various degrees in terms of the amount of information that we can take from it. But you know, we don't know exactly which watch brands, at least from what they disclose, are doing better than others. But we do know obviously that um revenue and profit uh have been down quite sharply? We've seen the same with Richemont, where it's broken out in terms of their specialist watchmakers group. And quite interestingly, with Richemont, which always makes it if you,'re looking at their financial results and you're looking in the specialist watchmakers section for clues about how the watchmakers are doing, you have to bear in mind that they do not include Cartier and Cartier watches because Cartier is in the jewelry section of those financial results. And if you look at the results, the you know, the Jewry division has um been performing quite strongly and continues to do quite well. And as we know though, I mean Karte is basically the second biggest Swiss watch brand. And so where we see those strong results, it's in that section of Richmond. LVMH is the same thing in that their major watch brands, Tag Hoyer, uh, Zenith, and Hublow are bulked in with the jewelry side, which would include Tiffany and Bulgary, uh, those assets. So it's hard to get a sense specifically of how watches are doing. But obviously it's been a tough go for them, and we see those declines. You know, single-digit declines generally over the past couple of years in terms of sales, but still that is difficult after such a sustained period of growth and interest and watches. But on the indie side, I mean, you know, the question is what are we calling independence if we're talking about Patek Philippe and Otomar Pig and Rolex? You know, they're generally doing just fine. All of these brands that have such high demand for most of their models that may decline a bit in that when someone gets the call, they might defer and not take that watch, but there's generally someone next on the list who's more than willing and able. And as you say, they're still working through all of those waiting lists, you know, for many models um that have existed for months, if not years. So they're generally doing fine. I mean, you know, who feels it in an economic downturn generally is, you know, those watch brands and watch products that are true, you know, discretionary purchases by discretionary, more more discretionary consumers than others who are thinking, should I spend you know three thousand dollars here on this watch or should I go on holiday with the family and do this and so yeah you know and they just think differently about buying a watch these days when there's economic pressures, as we always say, nobody needs a watch is a true discretionary purchase and it you know can vary very much in in in terms of economic senti |
| James Stacey | ment. things where uh you know we're talking about a uh an economy worsening not necessarily a full on meltdown of an economy or or or a marked recession, you know, a a widespread marked recession across categories. I think that what we remember from the previous larger meltdowns slash recessions is there is an upper category of the market that's entirely insulated from it. Yep. Some of these brands did better over the 2008 and the housing crisis changes. And you know, I think it's probably harder for the brands where their audience has some money to spend on a watch, but it's not free money. It's money that they take from somewhere else in their life. Like you said, like you're you might be picking between an upgrade to the house or a vacation with the family or this or maybe putting it into an investment portfolio uh with the hopes of returning to this question in 18 months with a different outcome. I think there's a, you know, there's a category that will become non-biyers, there's a category that will become more patient, and then there's a category that's like probably largely unaffected by kind of in in terms of their casual spending, which look to be cle clear, like we're talking casual spending on stuff like batex and APs or, you know, in other categories, Ferraris and Porsche's and that sort of thing. It's not the average buyer, but when you're talking about the brands where their average price point is in that category, they have, they have kind of a they're playing their own game to a certain part. Absolutely. Yeah. I me |
| Andy Hoffman | an it's just uh a different economic equation. And if you're spending twenty, thirty thousand dollars on a watch, you have different economic uh realities and uh absolutely |
| James Stacey | Good question, Lori D. Thanks so much for that one. Next up, we've got one from two banks one two three who says things to consider. It's not really a question, more of a statement, but we'll I'll phrase it as a question. What are the things I should consider when buying my first nice watch? So this is a fun one, and there's a bunch of different angles to go at it. But Andy, I'd love to see sort of the way that you would approach this advice to somebody. Maybe they've let's make the assumption they're on they're they're on my Instagram or Hodenky's Instagram or yours. So they know watches they probably have a couple. Maybe they want to make that leap to the the one that maybe they they really feel will scratch the itch, spend a little bit more more money than they're used to. Yeah. What what sort of the mental math to get there? W |
| Andy Hoffman | ell I think it's a I think it's a really good question. And I think if we think about it in terms of business terms or economic terms, I mean, first of all, I think if there's one thing that we that we've learned over the past few years, we shouldn't think of watches as an investment, right? Uh as a as a financial investment. Although many people seem to do just that in the pandemic era. And some people did quite well doing that. But of course, everything comes back to reality and that's where we are now. And so thinking of watches as an alternative investment of some kind, that's not the way to do it. However, one can and should be aware of metrics like value retention or or secondary market price performance of watches and brands. And so obviously there are some brands and watch models that hold their value better than others. And you know, Rolex, Patek Philippe, uh, Odomar Pi Gay, these well established, you know, high-end brands that we all know generally do tend to hold their value better than some other marks. At the same time, it all depends on the model. And as we say, it's not about uh looking at watches as an investment. It's an investment in yourself and what makes you feel good and and what you like and what kind of message you want to send with what's on your wrist. But also when we start talking about a nice watch, you know, every five to however many years, I think Rolex now says 10 years, but you know, you're gonna have to have to get a a a proper mechanical watch service. That costs money. That's something to factor in. But I'd be interested from you, James, and is someone who's covered, you know, this industry for so long and sort of what categories or or sort of you know brands or marks where we used to really find uh you know good value And has that changed much do you think in in recent years and and you know where where is that better place to st |
| James Stacey | art, do you think now? Aaron Powell Like I think at where we exist right now, there are fewer bad watches than there ever have been, but there's also more choice than ever. But just the quality manufacturing has kind of caught up with kind of what was promised in say 2008, 2010, somewhere around there. And I believe that, you know, two banks doesn't uh offer a price range or or a category. Are we talking premium? Are we talking ultra premium? Are we talking luxury? Are we talking more of an entry level n idea of a nice watch? Because like I don't think Tissos made a better watch than they make now. Yeah you know what I mean? Uh I would argue the same for longines are making a fantastic line of watches, tutors firing on all cylinders. These are all things we know. I don't think Zinn has ever been stronger from a manufacturing and interest standpoint. They just keep broadening their catalog. It used to be quite narrow. You used to have to fall into one of their categories. And now it feels like you can kind of pick like find something that kind of suits just about any wrist. And those are all, you know, I'm I'm listing watches that might be a thousand dollars to five or six thousand dollars. If you're spending more than that, I think we have to talk about and then negate Rolex to a certain extent. If you can get the Rolex that you want, that's probably the safest purchase. The quality level is exceptionally high, the quality control is exceptionally high, the manufacturing quality is exceptionally high, but they're very difficult to buy. If you're lucky enough to be able to get a, I don't know, a whatever it is you're you're really wanting, a 36 millimeter explorer and not wait forever or be told, you know, check back in X number of times over the next number of years, sure, fine. You'll you'll probably do best there and you'll have some safety where if this watch doesn't do it for you, you can sell it, right? Pretty much every other brand, you'll have some sort of a fall off, some sort of a depreciation scale for the model. Not always. I mean you might get lucky. It might hold its value. I'd say that anytime if you're looking at a watch that's modern and is largely available, at least understand what it costs on the secondary market. So if you want to go buy a new Speedmaster, you want to go buy a new uh Black Bay 54, you want to go buy a new Zin or uh or something like that, double check what they're selling for on, you know, watch recon. You can at least get a number in your mind for what people are listing them for, eBay, that sort of thing. And I think that way you can start to see, like like, oh, okay, this is a bit of a safer bet or that. Besides the the monetary element, like you you should have a budget and do your best to stick to it and find a watch that suits the amount of money that you'd like to spend, or come at it from the other direction and have a a specific watch in mind and then figure out how to make that part of your budget. I mean people will will do both of these things at the same time, which is why it's difficult to say things to consider when buying your first nice watch is like, do you want to stick to a budget or do you want a very specific watch? I would say because the watch part of this question is open-ended, we'd focus on the budget side. I think you know, you you you want to consider how the watch matches your own personal style, your personal concepts of of like what you value. Uh, you know, for me, I I will remain a big fan of five digit Rolexes. I'm wearing my 16570 now, uh, because I loved that era of Rolex that felt modern but was still deeply tied to the sort of explorer professional lifestyle or or or you know dream of of the lifestyle. Yeah. Uh before they became kind of more of a a purely luxury product. And I mean, again, it's not a question of quality, but of positioning. And so you have to understand what you might like, what you might not like. If you love a pilot's watch, it's really hard to tell you to not look at something from IWC because you get a classic style, you get incredible quality, great movements, good serviceability, an international network for the watch, that sort of thing. But at the same time, it it really comes down to like what do you want, what do you have to spend, what do you like? So I I think the the important things is definitely considering, you know, do you really need a chronograph or in five or six years are you gonna be upset when it's fifteen hundred dollars to service it? And then it's fifteen hundred dollars to service it eight years later or whatever. Do you so figure out what your needs are. Don't buy complications you don't need or that you won't use, right? And I would say go from there. I mean it's it's a a nebulous question without a budget or a category or that sort of thing. So it's it's a it's hard to kind of pin down maybe what two banks was looking for. But yeah, I I I think, you know, make sure that you the the the the part of this process that's free is the research and the the walking into a mall and s or a retailer or seeing a watch or going online and finding a form for that watch and learning about it. All of that is just your time. Once you've bought the watch, you you've you know, I hope you want to wear it and really like it, but the more you invest in the pre-purchase time, I think the more you'll you'll enjoy that watch and and get the right one. Yeah, |
| Andy Hoffman | no, I think that's a I think that's a great point. And yeah, I mean the the research and coming to that decision for your first nice watch is you know really such a part of the joy of all that indeed. But it one thing that you brought up that I thought was really important was you know understanding obviously when we're talking about Rolex or well-known models, they're all you know, an omega C master or something, there'll always be liquidity. There always be some kind of demand. You know, price is another issue and value retention is another issue. But indeed liquidity, the ability to sell that watch if you ever want to and to move on to something else. If that matters, yeah, yeah. If that matters, um, that's something to consider as well. For sure. So uh yeah, indeed. Thank you two banks for that question. Uh quite interesting. There's a lot to consider on that for sure. So I think we've um you know c we've run out of time. So we want to say thank you to James Stacy, the editor in chief of Fadiki, for joining us. That was really fun, James. Thank you. Yeah, my pleasure. It's been an absolute treat. Love to take questions. Excellent. And so stay tuned for the next episode of Business of Watches, which should drop in about two weeks. Thanks so much for tuning in, and we'll see you next time. And that's the business of watches for this episode. We hope you enjoyed. Please head on over to hodinky.com where you can join the discussion and leave any comments or questions about this episode or the business of watches in general. Who knows, we might even answer your question on a future episode. Thanks for listening and, see you next time. We'll be back in two weeks with a fresh episode of the business of watches. Until then, I'm Andy Hoffman, and I'll see you on HoDinky.com. |