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Marc Newson (Designer)

Published on Mon, 21 Jan 2019 11:00:00 +0000

The world-class designer talks about his new show at Gagosian Gallery in New York City, why he's drawn to timepieces, and what it's like to make something used by millions.

Synopsis

In this episode of Hodinkee Radio, host Stephen Pulvirent interviews renowned designer Marc Newson at the Gagosian Gallery in New York, where Newson's first major exhibition in over a decade has just opened. The conversation explores Newson's diverse creative process, from his massive cloisonné enamel pieces made in Beijing to curved glass chairs crafted in the Czech Republic. Newson discusses the challenges of working with unpredictable materials like glass and enamel, where failure rates are high and pieces can take months or even years to complete. He emphasizes how his work involves recontextualizing traditional techniques and taking crafts from their historical contexts into contemporary art spaces.

The interview delves deep into Newson's extensive history with timekeeping, beginning with his training as a jeweler and silversmith in the 1980s and continuing through his founding of the watch company Ikepod in the early 1990s. Newson discusses his collaborations with Jaeger-LeCoultre on Atmos clocks, his work on hourglasses, and a forthcoming clepsydra (water clock). He reflects on how the watch industry has evolved, noting that when he started Ikepod, large watches and rubber straps were revolutionary concepts that the Swiss industry couldn't comprehend. Newson also addresses his current work with Apple, the resurgence of Ikepod without his involvement, and his belief that mechanical watches remain as relevant as ever despite the digital age. Throughout the conversation, he emphasizes the importance of scale, craftsmanship, and the cross-pollination of ideas between different design disciplines.

Transcript

Speaker
Unknown I'm recording this on a Friday afternoon, and it's only been about twenty-four hours since I landed back in New York after SIHH. To be honest, my head is still spinning from all the new watches we saw in Geneva, and you can bet we'll have a lot more coverage of the show over the coming weeks. This is going to include conversations with Otomar PG CEO François Henri Benamias and IWC CEO Chris Granger that you'll be able to listen to right here. But this week we have something very special for you, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the SIHH. Gagosion Gallery on West 21st Street in New York just opened the first major exhibition of Mark Newsen's work in over a decade. Almost all of the pieces are being shown for the very first time, and the results are staggering. There are these beautiful curved glass chairs made in the Czech Republic. There are these insane huge cloisonnet enamel pieces made in Beijing. It's it's really incredible. For a design geek like me, it doesn't get much better than this. Mark was kind enough to meet up with us at Gagoshin to talk about the show. One thing to note, we are recording this on site, so you're gonna hear some things in the background, doors, people talking, and it's all part of the ambiance, don't worry about it. Mark and I talk about how his career has developed over the last 10 or so years, his 30-plus-year history of making time pieces from ICOPOD to Atmos to Apple, and why he thinks the Watchworld is more interesting now than ever. I'm your host Stephen Pulverin and this is Hodinky Radio. This week's episode is brought to you by Bohem and Mercier. Stay tuned later in the show for a look at the Clifton Bomatic Cosk, a high tech chronometer that offers phenomenal value for money. You can also learn more at bowemmercier.com. Cool. Well uh thank you so much for joining us Mark. It's good to uh good to see you and uh to be here at Kugoshin. Thank you very much for coming. Last night your uh your big show opened, 10 years, 10 years in the making can you uh how does how does it feel to finally have it out there have all the pieces out there in the world
Unknown ? Um well it's a relief for a start. Uh yeah a lot of the things in the um in the show uh as you alluded to took a long time to to make. And you know many of the pieces were extremely sort of prone to to failure. A lot of sort of alchemy, you know, a lot of difficult mediums like glass and uh enamel, things that are hard to predict, so um huge, huge r failure
Unknown rate and uh you know quite nerve-wracking. And when a show is is ten years in the making and and most of these pieces, in fact almost all of them have been shown for the first time, right? Uh absolutely. Yeah. So when something's that long in the making and it's it's you know, you have a diversity of pieces, how do you think about putting that together over over ten years of work? It's I would imagine not something where you can just sit down and say, okay, here are the you know fifteen things we're gonna do and we'll roadmap it and here's here's what it's gonna look like. Aaron
Unknown Powell It's uh it's a kind of combination of of on one hand wanting to be you know somewhat organic and and and you know doing letting the you know letting the the the sort of the subject evolve uh but of course one needs a degree of structure so you know you you have to kind of identify um you know ways of working or or or techniques or processes that that you want to exploit. But I've always got a kind of a uh you know a a a long repertoire of of of technical things that I've I've wanted to do over the years. So I'm sort of like it's a kind of like a bucket list of of of uh of technical challenges. Um but that was that was decided upon uh you know years ago really because uh a lot of these pieces took you know literally years to make because we didn't just make the pieces, we had to kind of build the factories as well. Um, you know, or at least sort of reinvigorate the factories
Unknown . Can can you walk us through a couple of the pieces? I mean, obviously this is an an audio medium, it's hard, but we'll um we'll have some photos on the website and we'll link up to them in the in the notes for the show. Um but if you can maybe walk us through a couple a couple of the pieces in the show that you think kind of exemplify that.
Unknown I suppose uh I would immediately think about the the cloisonet pieces. Um I mean there are really three different, you know, kind of bodies of work I, guess, but the clozenet springs to mind immediately because it's uh it's quite specific. It's very um uh particular. Uh it can only be done in a particular place. Certainly things on that scale. And shapes on that scale, I don't believe, have ever been done. You know, typically close in a shapes are far more regular, round, for example. Um yeah, so the closing A was really, really uh something that that that uh uh uh was quite you know challenging and quite quite sort of specific, something that I'd been interested in for many years. In fact, since I studied as a jeweller. Um and uh something that I'd always wanted to do but just never really had the kind of wherewithal to be able to to to figure it out how to do it or where to do
Unknown it. And these closinate pieces are are huge. I mean these aren't little tabletop objects. These are these are chairs and and lounges, right?
Unknown Yeah these are these are giant uh giant objects for for a closing eight piece. I mean the and that's really I suppose what um you know one of the one of the the the things that I I end up doing is kind of it's all about sort of recontextualizing things, you know taking a taking a technique or a process which uh perhaps has existed for for for centuries um and and giving it a new um you know a new a new place. Um and it was certainly the case with with with the closena. Um you know I'd I'd certainly you know challenge anyone to try and you know do anything that big And and what's also interesting and exciting about it is that they're all very sort of geographically specific. The glass pieces were made in the Czech Republic, which is the only place you can do that kind of stuff. The Kloisinet were made in Beijing, which is the only place that that you know, that the it it's you know that's the sort of center of excellence for for close in a um so it's kind of curious that you end up sort of having to go to certain parts of the world to do certain th
Unknown ings work on these closing A pieces and then you end up you know in the Czech Republic working on these other pieces and kind of the influence kind of creeps between between projects
Unknown . Absolutely it's it's it's unavoidable and it's one of the great um it's one of the one of the exciting things and it's one of the things that that keeps me motivated really is this sort of cross pollination of ideas. And you never really know how one thing's going to affect the next, but uh it's absolutely a certainty that it will in some small way. I mean, even you know, for for the industrial projects that I'm doing, you know, the the sneakers that I designed for Nike, uh, you know, massively, massively influence the way I design luggage for Louis Vuitton, for example. You know, because it occurred to me uh at some point that actually these things share a lot in common from a technical perspective, but also from a functional perspective. You know, they're both constantly in contact with the ground, you know, they're being beaten constantly on on the road. Um you know and and it's it's not immediately that you know, that's all that wouldn't immediately evident that you you kind of discover these things and um you know, it uh it it certainly I think it certainly helps
Unknown Yeah, you mention uh you know the the sneakers or or the luggage being being beaten and kind of having to endure that. There's something interesting, I think, about some of the work here in that it's it feels very precious on on one hand. I it's either enamel or glass. Um but at the same time they're they're things that you're in constant interaction with. They're they're pieces of furniture or even the the surfboard, the aluminum surfboard. How do how do you navigate that that sense of tension between preciousness and I guess either utility or durability on the on the other hand
Unknown ? Well I think that's potentially the um that that's potentially the sort of the magic that one can evoke, you know, if you if you're able to kind of balance that correctly. And it's very hard to know how to do that. In fact I don't think I'd do it consciously. It's just one of it's one of those things that happens. But but as I sort of mentioned before, it's um the the idea of sort of recontextualizing things, taking something out of its normal habitat and and and sort of representing it either in an art gallery or you know or taking some something from a sort of a far-flung um geographical destination uh you know that's that's what kind of makes this stuff exciting. I mean we all talk about originality and concepts of originality. What does it mean to be original? And I I believe that um you know originality really is more about the idea of of combining different things. You know, all of this stuff exists and has always existed, but but what what makes things what makes this original is is the fact that um you know you're doing it in a different in a different place, in a different time, in a different way for a different audience. Yeah, I I
Unknown love the the thing you say said about whether it's in an art gallery or or somewhere else. I mean your products can be encountered in a wide variety of places, whether it's you know a a physical space where your work is the space, something like the the Quantus Lounge or something like that or uh Casa Liva or one of those places, um, or it's a commercial product that's available in a retail store or something in an art gallery, does that influence from from the beginning how you're making something and how you're conceptualizing something, where it's going to be encountered? It
Unknown it really works both ways. You know, I can either be sort of inspired for want of a better word um by the process or by the by the the the the technique or I can be inspired by the the brief whatever that you know may be. I mean what's interesting about doing something in in a in a sort of a gallery context is that you know I'm I'm there is no client, so to speak, you know, in in in a conventional sense. You know, you're really completely free to to do um what you want how you want which in many ways makes it more complex you know it's it's it's m it's far easier to sort of work within boundaries that have been dictated and you have a very specific problem to solve and in a context like this there there are really no problems to solve. It's it's it's all about um you know it's wide open. Um but at the same time that's that's uh massively liber
Unknown ating Yeah, I was I was flipping back through the catalog from the 2007 and 2008 shows. Um and you know there's something that struck me as as a contrast between those shows and this show is is your choice in materials um and and kind of processes. You know, that those materials, it was a lot of metal, it was a lot of marble, uh Mikarta, it was it was heavy, dense things with kind of forms pulled out of them. Um whereas here it seems everything is a lot lighter, a lot uh a lot more delicate, there's a lot more color. What has changed in ten years that this was what you wanted to be doing now as opposed to what you were doing then
Unknown ? Well, as I said before, it's a little bit like a kind of bucket list of things. You know, I'd always been interested in doing these kinds of things, but glass was you know, as an example, glass was always a material that I'd been interested in using. Uh, and I'd always been frustrated, as as I think many designers are about how um craftspeople or or artists use glass not not in a particularly nice way in my opinion you know it's always one of those you know you know it's always dealt with in a very heavy-handed and sort of crafty kind of way. But I've always thought that, you know, it's a it's a wonderful material, and there's got to be a way to do something really challenging and really interesting with it. And and there are certainly many historical sort of precedents, you know, Marina Technica, which is this crazy process that comes from Venice, uh, or is is Venetian. Um but it's just about thinking, you know, how you know how can you you know what how can you reinvents almost too presumptuous a way of describing it, but but how do you kind of re you know reinterpret those techniques and um you know I'm I'm simply thankful that that actually these these these uh these individuals still exist in the world and it's it's a bit like the sword that um uh you know I did with this uh Japanese national living treasure. I mean these resources um may m in all likelihood exist for another generation. So it's an interesting moment in in in in in history. The pieces that I did in the Czech Republic, I mean those That is the only place you can cast glass on that scale. Um but but I can't imagine it's going to exist for more than another 10 or 20 years. You know, there's just really simply not not much of a demand for that kind of skill. And and Cloisonet, in fact. I mean Cloisonet is is uh I mean those I I guess the the fact that you know these things are incredibly anachronistic in in many ways, really. Um and even though you know Beijing is the kind of world, you know, it's the only place they can do these things, uh we still had to pull together a team of of people and, you know, sort of reappropriate the the the factory, you know, because they didn't have an oven that was big enough. The guys that that knew how to do it were all
Unknown very Is um sort of idea versus problem solving and and sort of technical troubleshooting. I mean, once you have the idea and you've you've conceptualized it and you figured out that it is in fact theoretically possible, how much of the work then is finding the right people and sort of troubleshooting until you get something that's that's a usable workable product
Unknown ? In a practical sense, it's it's you know it's over 90% of the work, really. You know, coming up with the concept is relatively, you know, uh practically is relatively easy. You know, intellectually, of course, it's that that's a whole other that's a whole other thing. But in a in a practical sense it it really is all about that problem solving exercise, you know, that troubleshooting thing and and and experimenting and experimenting and trying and trying and trying and you know, those pieces out there, I mean for for every one of those glass chairs that's there, there you know, five are in the in the trash can. I mean, you know, that that that chair um for example is cast it's it's such a large casting that it uh it sits in a in an in the oven for almost six months. So three of those months um are needed for the oven to slowly rise to the the the right temperature so the glass the glass it's sort of like a gravel sort of melts and then another three months for it to cool down because i it has to cool down at a fraction of a degree every day. Uh and it could be something as inane as a you know, the a power cut in the village and, you know, the whole thing's ruined. You know, 'cause you know, the ovens are powered by electricity. So uh which happened a few times. Um and then, you know, after six months you kind of crack open this mould, this sacrificial plaster mould and and it's completely cracked inside and you just don't know what's gonna happen. Um it's really sort of a dark art. But you know, it's it's it you know gradually you you figure out why, you know, why it failed and you know, you do it again and you know, you you kind of eventually get there, but it's massively frustrating. And I think with these pieces more than anything else that I've done, uh there's that uh you know it's it's more than fifty percent of of i is in the lap of the gods
Unknown . It must require after you put all of this effort into kind of you know eliminating as many variables as as possible, it must require putting yourself in a very particular sort of headspace to be able to like hand that control over and just say like okay I I can't do any more to control this. I just kind of have to let let it be or not
Unknown be. Yeah. Well it certainly helps absolutely and it certainly helps you know when these things are taking place in either Beijing or in you know the deepest, darkest Bohemia, you know, in the in the Czech Republic. So you're not there. So you're not you're not exactly you know, you're living it in one sense, but um you know, the scale is is very different. You know, you're talking months and not and not weeks or days. There's nothing immediate about it. And you know, there's there's a degree of patience that you have to sort of come to grips with. Which is why it, you know, I spent kind of of the better part five or six years working on this because it just took so long. And there are still pieces that are you know that we couldn't prepare in time for the exhibition that we're working on trying to understand why they're not why they're failing, you know, why they're not work
Unknown ing. And and so of the pieces here, were most of these pieces conceived originally to be shown together as a part of this exhibition, or over over time do they kind of develop into this thing sort of sort of organically
Unknown ? For the most part, they were conceived as a as a kind of body of work, especially the glass and the enamel pieces, because of course you, know en,amel is glass and uh you know, this idea that these things are coming out of an oven, you know, the glass pieces come out of an oven, the enamel comes out of an oven. So there's this kind of massive y y you know, there's a there's a there's a sort of consistency within those works. The sword was a was a was a very different thing and that happened for a completely different reason. Um but the timing sort of happened to happen to kind of play in our favour and and and it was ready. So and the surfboard was you know sort of a um something that I wanted to do because I'd done in the last exhibition and I thought why not do it again? And that you know the the first surfboard that I did for Garrett was was kind of at a moment in his career when he was um you know in the ascendance and now he's sort of close to retirement. You know, you know, h heolds the world re world record for the biggest wave surfed and um uh you know that'll probably be the last one then so as is the case with the sword, you know, the that that sword maker will never make any more swords. You know, he's I think he's 85 years old
Unknown . So when when you collaborate with with a brand like Nike or Louis Vuitton, kind of the the terms of that collaboration are are obvious. Um how is it different when you're collaborating with either uh an artisan to make the sword say or collaborating with an an athlete to with the surfboard
Unknown ? Yeah, well there's got to be a kind of a reason, I suppose. Um and and the reason that I worked on the sword was was uh was twofold. One that I had a sort of a you know a an absolute interest in in in in these things, you know, historically. I I'm obsessed with sort of metallurgy and um with steel, with blades and the whole you know well uh just the the you know the skill that's involved in doing that. Um but the second reason was that uh after uh the a a lot of those crafts people in Japan well in this particular person in particular uh in you know uh uh he uh he comes from a r uh a prefecture in north of Tokyo called Tohoku and that was um that that was the area that was pretty much entirely wiped out by the tsunami. So there was uh I was sort of approached indirectly through the Japanese government who, set up a scheme for these craftspeople who had had their livelihoods effectively, you know, pretty much wiped out, actually, and a lot were were killed. Um and and uh the the scheme was to pair those traditional craftspeople with either with with with contemporary Japanese designers uh and and in some cases foreign designers like like myself. I in fact I don't know of any other foreign designers that were so anyway I got to meet this this this guy and that that's how that project came about. Um because I don't know how else it would have you know it would have happened. I mean y you you it's uh
Unknown Well w one thing I want to make sure we we do get a chance to talk about aside from from the exhibition is is your history making timekeepers. So um you you mentioned it already, but you trained as a jeweler originally
Unknown I did. Absolutely. Um and and silversmith, yeah. But I confess I never really had any intention of sort of practicing as a as a jeweler. What what interested me about jewelry um uh and silversmithing was the the fact that it gave um you know provided you with a very unique and very specific set of skills which to this day I I I constantly sort of draw upon. You know, so when it if if ever any young designer asks me, you know, for you know, what's what what would your advice be, you know, it would be um go and study how to make learn how to make jewelry, you know, because it um it really teaches you a sort of unique set of skills and it and it and it it familiarizes you with scale and the importance of scale, which I think is an extremely important thing to kind of understand as a as a designer. Most arch I think you know architects should go and do that because they they're often spatially chall
Unknown enged? Are there are there any architects who you you know have done that or who you think despite not having formal training in in jewelry you think kind of uh have that same sensibil
Unknown ity architects I don't I can't really think of anybody but there are people like Carlos Carpa that spring to mind. And and I think you know. Uh maybe as well there's one or two Swedish architects, um Gunnar Asplund and uh God, what the other guy's name. And there are many, there are many, you know, Gaudi. Um but in but in a contemporary sense, I'm not I can't really think of anyone uh off the top of my head. Because you know, the the problem with architecture right now is you know it's about it's uh it's about sort of prefabrication and uh you know the you know detail simply isn't isn't that you know or craft isn't that isn't that integral to the way things are built
Unknown . Is that something you'd like to see some kind of return to, or do you think it's just sort of the natural progression of things? I
Unknown think it's the natural progression of things. It's just it's just not economic. Um you know and even in China it's not econom economic. You know everyone everybody has this impression that things are relatively uh inexpensive and and yet the fact is that China is is very very is a very expensive place to make things now. You know, it's not it's not uh it's it's it's almost like uh you know making making it in Europe
Unknown . So you you trained as a jeweller and then you pretty early on design a watch by yourself before Ikepod, right? You designed the the pod watch. Yeah. And that was
Unknown 1986, I think. Yeah, I think the very, very well, uh in fact I'd been I I I attempted to make a watch when I was about twelve years old. I've still got it. It was a sort of a plexiglass case and you know, I'd sort of my uncle had given me a watch not long after I'd learnt how to tell the time. And uh uh I I pulled it apart, you know, as soon as I got it, you know, he was sort of devastated because I'd kind of ripped it to pieces and tried to reassemble it in a in a case that I that I had made. But when I was doing jewellery I'd I made a series of watches. You know, I was always really fascinated by by watches. Um and and I was never particularly interested in in the concept of timekeeping. I was really more interested in in uh the fact that you know watches were these sort of mini these little universes you know inside a uh an enclosure and and the fact that they they really uh they kind of seamlessly bridged the that that that you know the boundaries of scale. You know, I love things that uh defy scale, you know, whether it be a watch or whether it be a But in fact, you know, if you if you landed here from kind of out of space, I mean it you know, it could be the size of a car. Um but yet the the and you could say that for anything except for the fact that, you know, th there's a level of precision that that that exists and uh and and that sort of that you know, that kind of extraordinary sort of technical rigorousness that that exists in in in that industry
Unknown or that craft. Really. And and your watches have always played with scale from the early days, uh even in the you know early nineteen nineties with the the early EchoPod watches, uh, they were much larger and really ahead of of that curve. I mean, we didn't see watches get into the forty, forty-four, forty-six millimeter range commercially until I don't know, maybe fifteen years ago now, but you know, you were you were probably a good ten to fifteen years ahead of that curve
Unknown . And the very first one the very first watch that I not the very first, it was like the second or third actually was this thing called the pod watch and it was about it was about sixty millimeters in diameter. Um had this huge rubber band which is in fact to this day remains reminiscent of the of the Apple bracelet. Um and it was designed to be worn on the top of clothing. You know, it was this sort of slightly kind of wacky idea that I had. But it didn't have hands. It had these sort of these rotating discs which um which admittedly had been done, you know, companies like Langin had had had had had done and and Jejeur had done it with memo voxes and things. Um but I you know, I thought it would be fun to kind of try and but you know, I was I was making those things, you know, I was machining the parts and trying to get them to, you know work, trying to get them to attach the you know, this disc to the kind of canon pinion on the movement and um you know, w w was you know, trying to kind of learn about uh uh you know the tolerances involved in making you know a press fit work at that scale
Unknown . And how did that then, you know, you went from doing it kind of all by yourself, like trying to do this by hand, to then founding a w a watch company that was producing things at relative scale, right? And how how did that how did that evolution go? And what kind of new challenges did that did that present
Unknown ? Well, uh, you know, starting to make watches on s on a on on scale, because I would never say on mass we never made that many of them really, but uh you know, it happened completely and utterly by accident. But it but it it got to a point that um uh you know it it it it seemed to make sense to to make production runs of of things. Um and uh it was a really odd sort of serendipitous you know moment. Uh and I I met a fellow in Switzerland who happened to be a furniture dealer actually but but but was also Swiss and had some you know knowledge of of of the industry and the industry in the mid-eighties and and and sort of early nineties was was not the way it is now. You know, a lot of these factories still existed, like a lot of independent factories still existed, and it was relatively easy to go and make a hundred watches. Mechanical watches. Because uh and you were still able to buy uh lovely movements, you know, that were still produced by independent manufacturers. Um but it but it i it really was an accident, in fact. You know, I never had any intentions of having a company that that manufactured watches and and as it as it as it transpired, uh you know, the company didn't didn't ever really do particularly well because we just were not equipped to run a business frankly
Unknown and now we'll look at this week's sponsor. Last year Mauman Mercier introduced the Clifton Baumatic. It's a collection of watches inspired by mid-century aesthetics and powered by a new class of movements. The star of the collection is the Clifton Baumatic Cosk. It's a time and date watch that has a stainless steel case, a slick white dial with a vintage-inspired crosshair, and sharp-looking hands and hour markers. Inside is a new in-house movement that boasts a five-day power reserve and a silicon balance spring. This results in a watch that looks great and carries a cost chronometer certification too. The best part, you can get all of this for a very competitive price. Last year, Jack did a week on the wrist review of the Clifton Bomatic Cosk, and you should definitely check that out. You can also learn more about this watch and the entire Bomadic collection by visiting bowematmercier.com. Alright, let's get back to the show. What was the reception like not from consumers, but from the industry in those in those early days. I mean, if if we think about what the Swiss watch industry looked like in the, you know, early to mid nineties, it was it was still pretty conservative. There was nobody like Irverk and M B and F and these these kind of people doing less traditional looking things.
Unknown Um yeah there was no one. I I I don't you know I really don't remember and I'm struggling to think of who who was doing
Unknown interesting things? So when you showed up and said, I want to make this, you know, it's it's this chronograph, it's forty-six millimeters, it's curved on both sides, there's this tiny window set into the back, it's bright colors, I'm doing this unique dial finish. Um what what was the response
Unknown like I think uh you know on one hand the response was uh you know there was kind of mild mild interest, complete sort of incomprehension because no one really you know no one thought that it was a particularly good idea. That rubber bracelet, um you know, no one could get their head around, you know. I mean there was like, you know, why anyway, it's gone on to become the most mass manufactured rubber bracelet of all time, but in the history of watches, but um which is which is you, know very, gratifying for me. But you know, putting the the little window on the back of the watch, you know, th those things were not that common, you know, and the fact that it was sort of ascentric and, you know, everything was flush and, you know, the section was elliptical, you know, just Um, you know, I j I I I could never really understand why no one um at the same time, y there were incredible things being done, you know, I can remember Concord came out with that that that the very, very first watch that was less than a millimeter thick. Oh yeah, yeah. The um the delirium. Yeah. Yeah. I was deeply kind of obsessed with these things. You know, I'd I I had scrapbooks of of this shit, you know, like Patek Philippe watches and you know
Unknown . I mean little thing I mean you mentioned things like having the glass sit flush and having the radiusing be be just right. I mean the these are the things that it it still always shocks me a little bit when you look at at watches versus some other products that the things which are being which are having great attention paid to them aren't always the same. It seems like each each industry has its own little little obsessions. Do you find that coming to making watches from other another place gave you the opportunity to kind of pick different things to care about in in making a watch
Unknown ? Absolutely. Yeah. It's always helpful to come with a new sort of set of eyes and having not trained as a watchmaker or having not come from the industry almost certainly gave me and not least the fact that I was doing all of this in Australia, right? So I'm I'm I'm kind of I wasn't even in Europe. I was literally there, you know, there's absolutely zero history of watchmaking in Australia. Although it had to be said that my I I shared uh a workshop with a with a German guy who was an emigrant to Australia who was the only authorised um the only authorised repairer of atmos clocks in in the southern hemisphere, right? So like it was c utterly bizarre that And when would this have been? This was in uh like nineteen eighty four Wow. So I don't know how I kind of ended up sharing a workshop with this guy. And there there certainly weren't many atmos clocks that needed repairing, but when they did, they came to his place. So he had all of this watchmaking equipment, you know, he had watchmaking lathes, and he he was uh as I said, he was German, but he had a you know he was he was a watchmaker
Unknown . Do do you think that kind of planted the seed there that eventually ended up being your work with with JLC and and to work on on a number of atmos clocks? Or was it is it total coincidence that those two things kind of in hindsight match up
Unknown nicely? Yeah, I think it was more more coincidence, really. I mean I,'ve always loved Atmos clocks. I'm not I'm not sure, you know, I I knew what Atmos clocks were before I met him. Um and it was a it was a fantastic thing that you know I got to meet him and understood how they worked. But but I knew what they were you know I was obsessively kind of researching all this stuff um and I'd always loved Atmos clocks you know I'd um you know and the fact that I ended up working with them designing clocks for them was um was uh uh you know it was a I I suppose was just a fantastic coincidence really. I didn't seek them out. They they they they came to me. Okay. And when did when did that collaboration start? Uh I think the first Atmos uh well we started I I I wanna say it was probably like two thousand and five or four you know and those things always have such a long gestation, you know, because it's always it's always the brain child of of an individual in a company, you know, say, Oh, I've got this really great idea, why don't we talk to this guy? But i it's only ever one person and then they have to kind of go and sell it to the the CEO. Yeah. And that may or may not work. But you know, so you know, someone has to kinda plant the seed of the idea. And most in most cases, uh, you know, by the time you end up finishing the project that person's long gone. Right. So but I did the one, and then and then you know it was a relative success. Uh and and so you know then they wanted to do they wanted to do another one
Unknown . One of the things that that I've always thought about the Atmos and with some of the Agapod pieces, um the Solaris maybe in in particular, is there these these objects that in a certain way they're immediately legible. Like you see it and you know it's it's a clock or it's a watch. But they also kind of challenge your idea of what that thing is. Like you look at an atmosphere and it's it's obviously a clock but you're not quite sure what's going on. And the same with the Solaris, it's it's a watch, but it has another side and there's what's what's happening here. Um is is that something you're doing consciously or is this something that you think is is a result of a different a different process that's kind of going on for you? I think it's a it's all of those it's all of
Unknown those things. But but but you know I do love the in if you'll excuse the pun, that you know, the kind of timelessness of those uh of an object like the atmos in in the same way that the clipsedra. I mean that's that's all together, you know, that takes it to a kind of a whole other level. But you know, that mechanism has existed for almost a hundred years, but but um and and and can can not be really improved. Um you know there's a sort of a weird alchemy, you know, it's it's slightly mysterious. It's a bit it's a bit it's it's very sort of Jules Verne. Um I was a huge fan of Jules Verne when I was a kid, you know, growing up. And um yeah, there was always something sort of slightly magical about those about those objects, but but magical in a mechanical way. Not in a you know it was you could kind of see it all happening in front of you. It wasn't particularly mysterious, it was just you know curious
Unknown . And with something like the Atmos, like you you, I would imagine when you approach this project, you you have some ideas, but then there's this entire set of technical requirements, right? And this is with with any project, but with the Atmos, I think it's interesting because it's transparent. You can you can see those technical constraints as the end user. Um how does that affect your design process when you say I have this idea? And then you get this sort of long, long list of things that it it can do it can't do and you have to kind of work uh literally physically around this mechanism. Yeah but well that
Unknown that that does you know that is what a that is what being a designer is about at the end of the day. It's kind of working within the parameters that are imposed upon you. And on one hand, uh you know, you know, one could imagine that it's quite restrictive but on the other hand uh or prescriptive but but it it does uh you know it gives a lot of it gives uh guidance you know it's it's it's nice to be able to kind of work within those parameters and those those those kinds of boundaries. So um and and and one always of course has to be mindful of what the object is and and that you don't lose sight of of of the fact that first and foremost it must remain an atmos, you know, it's is it's not about me, it's about that thing. You know, you've got to be able to sort of squint and and and and you know, if if it's at the other end of the room, it needs to be uh immediately recognizable as an atmosphere in in the same way that you know when I designed a reaver boat for example you know and it's sort of more you know two hundred yards away and you kind of you know, the first thing that you the first impression you have is that it's a rever. You know, then you know that's that's the most you know that that's that's that's the sort of departure point. Um and and the case that is certainly you know that that's the case with with with an atmos. You know, it's such a specific thing. Having said all of that, there there are still lots of lots of fun things that that you could do that haven't been done. Um because it is it is fundamentally such a kind of weirdly utilitarian, you know um obje
Unknown ct. Is is that a uh collaboration that you think we're going to see more of in the future or is that kind of on on hold for for now? Honestly,
Unknown uh uh if you'd have asked me that after I did the first one, I would uh maybe give you the same answer and is that you know, I I just I don't know really. But you know, I've done three now and they keep coming back. So so I'd like to think yes, you know, I mean it's a wonderful company. Um and I I remember when started working with Atmos, Atmos still was uh a small factory down the road. You know, it wasn't part of uh of course it was part of the group, but it wasn't it was this it was its dusty little kind of workshop, you know, full about moss clocks and and it was really a forgotten you know, it was it was literally like the land where time stood st
Unknown ill. Yeah. Well I think it's it's probably in no small part due to to you working with them and them kind of making a push back into this being a meaningful part of of what they're doing that they now have this big beautiful uh workshop that's in the main manufacturer and I think it's it's done a lot kind of for the the visibility of that of that product. Yeah absolutely
Unknown I think so. And and what what what they always knew but what what I don't think they were ever able really to to or what what they what they started to to lose was the fact that these were such icon iconic you know objects and and and the fact that they were truly sort of timeless things. You know, you'd you you could have one of these objects um forever. And it occurred to me that actually, you know, they may they're perhaps amongst the most sustainable things on earth. You buy one of these things and you have it for like, you know generations. Yeah. It's like the best investment you'll ever you'll ever you'll ever have. You know, they're they're wonderful. I mean it's never going to be landfill. Um you know there's nothing disposable uh about those things. And I think they've understood that, you know, they've kind of embraced that that uh you know those those uh or embraced or exploiting those those realities
Unknown . Yeah. I mean another another one of the timekeepers that you're you're sort of known for outside of watches is is the hourglass. Uh and one of the things I've always found interesting is that I know you sort of transitioned out of Ikepod and the the Hourglass was originally conceived as an an Ikepod product and was sold as an icopod product. Um and then you transitioned out and they sort of disappeared for a little while. Um and then I remember I was I was at Salon QP a number of years ago in London and saw them there and was like wait I thought these I thought these disappeared. I thought this was gone. Um but you actually ended up founding a new company uh kind of under And I wonder what what is it about this product that was special enough to you that you thought you wanted to keep making it and improving on it and and bring this back into the world?
Unknown Well it you know it started with the atmos and uh you know which which i it has to be said it's quite a sort of an esoteric timepiece. It's not for everyone, but it you know, it's it's it's it's kind of at the the outer limits of you know of of of time keeping instruments. Um and I just kind of kept going really and I you know I thought wow I I I'm really interested in in the concept of time um uh and and the sort of the kind of mesmeric qualities of certain time keeping devices. Like the Atmos. You know, it's a it's a kind of meditational thing. And it's not actually it's really not you know, it it's it's more about um well it's it's it's much less about keeping time uh than it is about this th you know the concept of it just perpetually going. And uh I d I I I wanted to sort of take that to the next the level. And of course, you know, our glasses are you know are probably the most it's it is like the most generic timekeeping thing. And it's not really about time in a in a in a in a in a specific way. It's more in a sort of an esoteric way. And it's the same with this, you know, I just it's a bit like um you know staring at waves or or or looking into a fireplace and watching watching flames. I mean, you know, they they kind of um I I find these objects to be uh
Unknown Time you've you've gestured towards something that's that's sitting right next to us here that people have not seen yet. Um we've we've seen it before. Um folks listening will be seeing it soon on on Hodinky um and and elsewhere, but I wonder if maybe you can kind of give us a little bit of a teaser as to what what this thing is that's uh sitting on the the beautiful white plinth next to us and uh
Unknown yeah what people can expect. Well what what this thing is is a is a klepsedra, which is obviously a Greek word that describes one of the earliest kind of timekeeping machines. And you know on one level it's incredibly simple. You know, y y you can see exactly what when it starts working, what it does and what it's supposed to do. But it I must confess, uh belies the complete and art of complexity. You know, it and so you get to thinking, God, you know, how did the ancient Greeks do that? You know, I mean getting it to work is is really not that trivial. Um but again it's that sort of complete um completely sort of anachronistic quality, you know, this sort of juxtaposition of simplicity and complexity. Um and it's about time, but it's not about time. You know, no one will use this to to you know to as an alarm clock or And I think as well, you know, like a lot of certain of these objects that that they um either're they're timely in a in in a sense that we know we live in a sort of such a digitized world that you know having these um you know fundamentally sort of mechanical things uh you know uh are uh quite reassuring in a way. You know, I find them sort of oddly um uh comforting
Unknown . Yeah it's it's interesting. I know you've you've you've alluded earlier to the fact that you're now you're now working a bit with with Apple, um and there's there's an Apple watch on on your wrist right now. How do you see that tension of of a mechanical object versus versus a digital object and how those things fit into our lives
Unknown now uh well you know it's all relevant um you know the apple watch is an extraordinary thing uh that goes you know far beyond what a normal watch does. You know, it's really it's much less of a watch than it is a you know a But there's a time and a place for all of these things that as as I think Apple have kind of demonstrated. I mean everyone was terrified when the what the Apple watch I mean in Switzerland. But if you know it transpires that that that actually um you know mechanical watches are just as relevant as they always were and you know, most people have both. Um and I guess it's the same with with with these sorts of more sculptural large scale objects
Unknown . Yeah, I I wonder are w do you have any ambitions to to someday work on on a mechanical watch or a mechanical timekeeper that's sort of wristworn of of some kind again?
Unknown Absolutely, yeah, yeah. I mean um I would. You know, there's an enormous amount of stuff being done in in in that industry, uh you know, uh far more than there was when I as you sort of spoke to earlier, uh, you know, the in in the mid you know, three decades, two, three decades ago, uh there are companies doing sort of extraordinary things, even to the point of it being slightly kind of gratuitous actually, you know, in a lot of cases. But um so I don't know you know, so much has been done, you know, I think I think, you know, I I wonder where, you know, how where you know, how w how one would try to be relevant and and I suppose in some ways it's why I I I um I veer more towards designing completely esoteric objects like that klepsedra. Or are there 'cause there's certainly no one else
Unknown doing that. No. Um yeah I'm really excited for people to see this. It's uh Yeah,
Unknown I mean it's it's about time, but it's kind of not about time. You know, it's it's as much not about time as it is, you know
Unknown . Are there any brands or any specific products that you've seen over the last couple of years that that excite you or that you think are particularly interesting for one one reason or another?
Unknown God yeah, th there are a few and I forget their names. Um what was that beautiful watch that was designed and it it was it was not dissimilar in section to my um my um hemipode watch. It was sort of elliptical in section, yet the the dial, it was filled with oil and the dial Oh uh response. I thought that was a stunning you know, and kind of mesmeric thing, really. That was a magical um Um to you know that that part of the way it worked. You know, that that that was for me as a standout kind of an i an incredible object. But I must confess I'm not a massive fan of a lot of the the you know, what I would call sort of these kind of crazily sort of gratuitous complications. You know, I'm not talking about a turbulent, you know, that I think is a you know, is a a deeply, you know significant sort of mechanical thing. It's more um yeah, that you know, I I don't you know, I don't want to name names or or or whatever, but you know, I I I think uh yeah, if I think you know, I I just I I keep going back to classic you know, to to to movements actually that that really um excel, you know, that are just you know so sort of technically extraordinary. Um and I must, you know, I say I I I like, you know, the movements that are produced by you know Geger are are pretty pretty fantastic, having spent a lot of time in their factory. You know, the old memo boxes and things. I mean I have quite conventional taste when it comes to watches.
Unknown Uh I'm I'm sure you saw um that Icopod has been uh kind of brought brought back from the dead. Can I ask what what you think about that? And it's been brought back for for those who don't know with without you involved
Unknown . Absolutely, yeah. No, I had absolutely no involvement or no knowledge even of of what was happening, a limited knowledge. And and there are there are only certain parts of of of what we did that are that are able to be you know brought you know that that they could acquire. Um but you know I don't know what their plans are or what their intentions are. Uh but it's a little bit of a mess, frankly, because the the unfortunately it's a big mess. You know, you know, the the brand, the logo itself is owned by a Chinese entity. So I'm not quite sure, you know, where one could go with that or you know how one could then how could could now turn that into sort of a coherent brand anymore. You know, to me it's you know it's had it it it it it had its day really unfortunat
Unknown ely so we're we're getting short on time, but the the the last thing I wanted to ask you before we get into kind of this little questionnaire we do do at the end. Um so you last night the show debuts, it's ten years of work. We've we've already talked about this this clip Sidra, which is coming very soon. Um all this represents again a d a decade plus of of work. What what are you gonna be doing next? What are what is what what are next steps for
Unknown you? Well yeah, I mean there's all of that stuff out there in the gallery and then, you know, I've got my day job as well, so um uh we're you know, I still have a kind of design consultancy and I'm doing you know, vast amounts of of work in a whole variety of different industries, a lot in the so sort of so-called luxury sector. Um a number of luxury yachts as well, which is a weird kind of niche that I've found myself in. Uh continued to design furniture for companies like Null um and uh and all kinds of other things, you know, I mean you name it. Uh so I'm just gonna be doing more of the same really um you know and try Something tells me you won't you won't have a problem staying busy. No, that won't be the issue. Yeah. Yeah. Staying staying busy will be is is a is a given
Unknown . Great. Well, to finish things up, uh we have a little questionnaire. We ask everybody the same kind of five questions to to close things out. So um you can feel free to keep the answer short or you can you can go more in depth if you'd like. So um number one is is and we've talked about this a bit, but what's a watch that's caught your eye recently, something you saw recently that that grabbed your attention? Uh well it would
Unknown probably uh the Apple watch, of course. Um the new version. Yeah. That was uh I walked into that one. Um the um that that res uh uh was that res resonance? Resence, yeah. Resence, resence, yeah that that I thought was really, really was really stunning um and uh I I just kind of keep coming back to these classics you know I love I love the memo box I think that's one of my all-time favourites. Perfect. I designed a memo box for with Johnny actually for the For the Red Auction. For the red auction. You know, with this little red dot in the middle and you know, I've got one of those and there's an Atmos from uh from
Unknown that sale too, right? Correct. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I remember that. Those uh the prices at that sale were amazing. Yeah, they were uh incredible. People were really, really interested. It was great. Um what's what's the best place you've traveled in the last ye
Unknown ar At the risk of sounding a little cliched, but probably Japan, you know, I spent a lot of time there. Uh but I went through a period of not going that much and and I've recently started, you know, ha had the opportunity to go back again. Um yeah, I mean constantly fascinated and and I'm constantly invigorated by by travelling around Japan and in Tokyo. Much more than say you know, China
Unknown . What's um what's the best piece of advice you've ever received and who gave you that advice
Unknown ? Well a few things, actually. Um knowing when to stop and I can't remember who gave me that bit of advice, but I've never forgotten that and it's remained in the forefront of my mind. Um and uh a bit of advice that my grandfather gave me which was uh if you want to do something properly do it yourself. Perfect.
Unknown Um what's your guilty pleasure?
Unknown Guilty pleasure. I I I would have to say kind of being lazy, you know, not doing anything, being absolutely um you know, the ha having occasionally the luxury to do absolutely nothing.
Unknown Great. And the last thing, um is we always finish up we ask for uh a cultural recommendation. So is there something you would recommend that people when they're done listening here go take a look at, whether it's a a film or a book or a place they should go. There's a fantastic jewelry exhibition at the Met.
Unknown Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, which I would thoroughly recommend. It's really, really great. Yeah, we'll link up to that. I actually went maybe two, three weeks ago for the holidays. It's incredible. It's really, really good. Yeah. Yeah. I mean there are so many things, especially here. But that was, you know, that's that's a good one. Right. And an easy one
Unknown . Yeah. Great. Well, thank you so much for doing this. I know you're you're busy. You have you know lots to attend to and um No sweat. No sweat. The show looks fantastic. And we'll we'll link up uh here in the show notes so that people can get the details and uh highly recommend you come check it out for yourself. Thank you so much. Yeah, it's a pleasure. This week's episode was recorded at the Kagoshan Gallery on West 21st Street in New York City and was produced and edited by Grayson Korhonen. Please remember to subscribe and rate the show, it really does make a difference. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next week.