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Maximilian Büsser (Founder, MB&F)

Published on Mon, 7 Jan 2019 11:00:00 +0000

This week we sit down with one of the watch industry's most humble and thoughtful figures who's also making some of its wildest timepieces.

Synopsis

In this engaging episode of Hodinkee Radio, host Stephen Pulvirent sits down with Maximilian Büsser, founder of MB&F (Maximilian Büsser and Friends), and senior writer James Stacey on the eve of Hodinkee 10. Max shares his fascinating journey from engineering school to becoming one of the most innovative independent watchmakers in the industry. He recounts his serendipitous entry into watchmaking after being recruited by Henri-John Belmont at Jaeger-LeCoultre in the 1990s, his challenging years at Harry Winston where he launched the groundbreaking Opus program, and ultimately his decision to leave corporate success to found MB&F in 2005. Max openly discusses how therapy helped him understand that creating his own company was essential to his happiness, despite having achieved conventional success.

The conversation explores Max's creative philosophy and how MB&F operates as a collaborative endeavor celebrating mechanical artistry. He explains how his engineering background, rather than traditional watchmaking training, allowed him to break conventions—like creating the suspended balance wheel in the Legacy Machine that no traditional watchmaker would have attempted. Max discusses the Mad Gallery concept, which showcases kinetic and mechanical art alongside MB&F pieces, and his commitment to supporting fellow independent creators and artisans. Throughout the interview, he emphasizes that creativity cannot be democratic, that business models should follow passion rather than dictate it, and that his entire body of work represents an autobiography told through mechanical objects. The episode concludes with personal recommendations and reflections on the challenges of sustaining creativity under the pressure of expectations.

Transcript

Speaker
Unknown Of all the watches I see in this line of work, there are none that make me smile quite like those from MBNF. I don't even know exactly what it is about them, but I can't seem to look at one without grinning. MBNF is short from Maximilian Boosser and Friends, and the brand's founder, Mr. Max Booser himself, is somehow even more charming and interesting than the watches he and his collaborators create. After a childhood of sketching cars and a few years at Swiss Engineering School, he serendipitously ended up working at Gigère Lecoult before going on to launch the famous Opus program at Harry Winston, essentially kicking off the modern era of high concept independent watchmaking altogether. Now I've known Max for years, and he's one of those people who makes you want to lean in closer when he speaks. There's an understatement and a humility to him that you might not expect from his sometimes brash creations. Ahead of Hodinky 10, I had the chance to sit down with Max and Hodinky Senior writer James Stacy to talk about how Max ended up in this weird little world of ours and how, with a little creativity and passion, he's trying to make it just that little bit weirder. I'm your host Stephen Polverant and this is Hodinky Radio. Cool, thanks so much for joining us, Max. It's good to have you here. Great pleasure. And we've got uh James Stacy here too. Hey everyone. It's uh it's what, I guess Thursday morning on the eve of H10. And this I think we can say is kind of the first sort of like H10 peripheral thing we're we're officially doing. It's uh not not a bad way to kick things off. No, this is great. So Max, I think a lot of our listeners are probably familiar with you and your company, MBNF, but uh can you give us a little bit of your background? You have not the most traditional kind of Swiss watch industry background of any uh company proprietor out there
Unknown . Um okay, I'm um I don't know where to start all usually these stories. Um I'm an engineer by training. Uh I did the OPFL in Lausanne. And uh my first job twenty-seven years ago was at Yeagle Le Coult as a product manager. Um I actually owe everything I have done in my life today to Henri John Belmont, the then CEO of Jaeger, who probably saw in me things I didn't see in myself. And so he he coerced me into joining because nobody wanted to work in the watch industry in those days. Everybody around me when I signed was thought, are you insane? Um and so um seven years at Jaeger, incredible years. This is a uh a pre-Richemont era, which is an era where uh uh the best retailers in the world would tell me, young man that, that watch which turns has no future. Why the hell are you actually producing it? And uh after those seven years I was headhunted at Harry Winston to head their uh timepiece division, which uh should have been the most beautiful day of my professional life and turned out to be the biggest nightmare of my professional life. Um, because um I was 31. I probably had no idea what I was getting into, but more importantly, I had no idea that Harry Winston time pieces was virtually bankrupt. And actually it's a pretty important detail. It's more than a little detail. And um and then uh I think it was a week later I discovered that Harry Winston the brand was being put on sale for many different reasons. And so I remember I when I finally officially entered the company, I jumped on a plane, went to New York and told my new bosses it's uh it's a nightmare. And they all looked at me and said, uh, yeah, yeah, it's your nightmare, we've got other things to deal with. That's exactly what you want to hear from your your new bosses. Gosh, I thought I'd done the biggest error of my life. And um uh it took us well 98-99, which are the most horrible years of my life, uh, to with a little team which I had inherited, which they all wanted to leave the company. I was like try to keep them in. Um we took us about a year and a half to stabilize what was happening there and then from two thousand to two thousand five we grew um that company uh in an incredible way, actually when I think about it. It was it was actually I I discovered that I was actually capable of doing that. Uh you have no idea. You have no idea what you're capable of um till you're actually confronted to it. And um and I discovered as the company was growing that I was um less and less enjoying myself, which was more than weird. I I come from a middle-class uh no-money family, and never ever imagined I would have that sort of job and have my face in the newspapers and get that sort of money. And it I sort of felt guilty because you're not allowed to be uh ungrateful? You're not allowed to be unhappy when you get to that position. But I was. And then a lot of things happen in my life. I usually quote m the most important one, which was my dad passing away. And from there I on I went into therapy, which uh for you guys in the US is normal, but when you're Swiss, it's not normal at all. Um and uh that was uh that was quite quite a jump for me and it was um it was an eye opener and that sort of that during those that that therapies that when I I understood that I had to create my own company. Hence 2005, I I resigned just after Basel 2005, which we launched the Opus the Incredible Opus V with Felix and Martin. And um uh and they let me go, I think on the 15th of July 2005 and the 25th, I incorporate MB and F, which is just like me working from my flat for the next two years. There were a lot of friends, but not internally. Yeah. There were a ton of I mean all these people around me who which made it possible yeah and um and then it's been uh it's been the um it's been up and down I mean we've had a r some great years we've had some super
Unknown I I love the idea of counting time in calibers. It's such a like uh a very it makes total sense to me like you say that and you know j you know you're nodding along as well, James. Yeah for sure. But it's it really I think speaks to the way in which this industry moves at kind of its own special pace uh and and with its own kind of little mile markers, right? Aaron P
Unknown owell Well the whole point of of creating a company like ours is to create. So what do you create? You create beautiful movements. That is the point. And hence I actually don't even think of years, I think of calibers. It's how many calibers we've managed to create and how many calibers we've got in the pipeline. That's what that's my cursor which uh tells me where I am in my life. Can you say how many are in the pipeline right now? Um seven. Okay. Seven. We're taking us to about twenty twenty-three or twenty-four. Um super frustrating of course. I'm I'm sure. I mean look, I mean if I was a painter and I woke up in the morning and I had an idea and I start painting and I maybe except if I'm Rembrandt so took a little bit longer, but I mean it would take me two, three weeks. I have an idea. I have to wait three and a half to four years before I see the baby come out. And hence it has a big impact on the way I live this whole process because the whole interest for me is the creative process, is seeing that that initial sketch become reality. When it does, I lose complete interest in it. So we get into this very weird situation where we launch a product. The first week I launch it is very exhilarating. It's the is that, and even though with the internet they've they've robbed me of all my wow moments because I get that that like 10 minute wow effect when I present the first day usually we do launch in in Singapore in front of a uh a uh group of fifty sixty uh MBNF uh aficionados and they you unveil the piece and they're like whoa and then the next morning everybody was like yeah I've already seen it so so th that that moment that sort of week when you unveil it and you present it is a incredible reward, even though I don't do it for that, but it's an it's it's you get the love. And then afterwards, then you're you're you're you're presenting something you've can lost complete interest in it. I'm not saying it's a great not a great product, it's an incredible piece. But then I I just shift my focus onto the next six, seven calibers because they're the ones which get my adrenaline up. The the producer Exactly. And it's exactly what you well it's not always exactly, but it's more or less ex exactly what you had in mind. Um that is that's the love. And then all the other process which is necessary because we need to fund the next calibres. Um that's Sure. So I think it's something that you hear from artists, from creators that like, you know yeah, they're they're in it because they wanted to create something, not because they saw the business model and worked backwards. I don't think you get to your product by starting backwards from a business. Nobody could get there. Exactly. You're not you're not gonna it it would never get there. Look at the Eiffel Twitter because something you want. Yeah. Look at the Eiffel Tower. Luckily for Paris, they didn't dismantle it. Right. Um but I mean all these anything which is really I hate the word disruptive because everybody uses it, but every really different is usually created definitely not on a business model. And it's more some uh what was it in the in the um the book The Fountainhead? Ayn Rand writes um uh ego is the uh fountainhead of human creativity or something like that. It's like you you just you do what you believe in and then you find means to finance it. And I mean it and and the other the the other side of that is that you do what you believe in and if the output is good, even if you disconnect from it once it becomes output, then it takes on its next life as a product, which allows you to make your next six, seven calibers and there's a certain beauty like we were talking uh before we started recording, we were chatting about the Lamborghini Mira. And that was a uh uh essentially a pet project of a few people at Lamborghini that were essentially being told not to do it at some level. And of course what they designed, what they created was one of the most beautiful cars ever made. I think that's an easy statement, but also defined a genre that exists today as the peak still of something that people don't need. A supercar. With an engine in the back and a tiny cockpit that's not that easy to drive and you can't see out of and all these things, but it's a beautiful thing. And and my guess is they made it and they were happy with how it looked and everything and then what it what it's become now an Aventador or a a hurricane or something isn't entirely you know, that's a um almost a mass commod uh commodity compared to what they were creating in sixty five, 66. In those days, engineers were artists. Absolutely. There were no CFOs, there was no CMOs to dictate them what they should do. There was no data to sustain that what they were doing was actually probably better or worse. They were definitely not going to do any marketing reviews to ask the clients if they liked it. And that's how these insanely beautiful and disruptive creations change the world. You just can't create something really innovative by counting beans and asking people what they want. Ye
Unknown ah. I think, you know, we we keep going back and forth as we talk about this about, you know, the idea of engineers being one way and artists and designers being another way. But I I think one of the things that's fascinating about about you and the the business you've created is by necessity, you have to be doing both together. You know, you have to be a sort of like engineer artist. And your background, I think most people would assume that you went to design school or that you're an artist by by training when they look at the products. But how do you think approaching this with uh sort of classical engineering training affects how you design and create
Unknown ? For a very long time I had uh I had actually a chip on my shoulder that I was not a watchmaker. I was an engineer. So I'll start with that. And um I realized today that by not being a watchmaker and being an engineer and understanding metal, understanding how everything functions together, but not having the rules dictated to me has actually allowed me to create pieces I would never have thought of. Take the legacy machine. Why has nobody before us created a flying or suspended balance wheel? It's so beautiful. It's so mesmerizing. Why hadn't anybody thought about it? And I for a very long time I actually wondered, well, how come? What have I missed? Now clearly engineering wise, it was super complicated. Watch making, we're talking of an eighteen thousand um oscillations uh uh an hour. We're talking of something which is very complex to regulate, you need great watchmakers, and of course that's n we we've we've strayed, at least industrial watchmaking has trade from that. But still, I mean somebody else should have thought about that. And then I realized, as a watchmaker, you have to protect the heart of your movement. You have to protect it, have it in the movement. And if somebody comes to you and says, Why don't we take it out of the movement and suspend it? You will go, no way. Because that's what you've been taught. You have to protect the regulator. And by not being a watchmaker, I was able to do that. But now, one step back, if I'd only been a designer, a creator, an artist, which by the way, I have no formal training in that. Um I really am a diehard engineer. Probably not a very good one, but um I I am an engineer. Um I would probably have never created what I did because I would be hitting walls all the time. I would create stuff I would think super cool and then all the engineers would tell me it's not possible. And we would lose hundreds and thousands of hours debating on why is it not possible and etc. Now when we debate I speak the same language as them. It's been going on for twenty seven years. Whenever I have an idea, I know that 50 to 80% is possible. Now I have to find the people who are way more competent than me in engineering who can bring that 20 to 50% which is missing. Okay. But I can actually sit down with them and debate. If there is no that, probably 80% of our creations would not exist.
Unknown And that's something that's always been super key for MBNF, right? Is this idea that it's not a huge bloated corporate structure where you have, you know, 20 million layers of middle management like most watch companies and large conglomerates of all kinds do, uh, but that you're talking to the watchmakers, you're talking to you know your team directly and kind of solving problems one-on-one. And I I would assume that that requires that you have that level of understanding. Like somebody who didn't have that training, couldn't run a company structured like MBNF, right
Unknown ? It's it's really important that I have that training, but it's also very important to acknowledge what I'm not good at. I think as an entrepreneur, it's uh and a creator, it's as important to know what you're good at as what you're really not good at. And um and therefore to surround yourself with people are way better than you. And that's what I've been doing initially with everybody around me when I was just alone in my flat for two years. And then now we're twenty-six in the company. I I I always said we would never be more than fifteen. So I'm a little bit we're a bit more than what I expected. Um but um everybody is better than me in what they do. Uh otherwise this doesn't exist. And you just have to put your ego aside, otherwise you y you're you're it just doesn't happen
Unknown . So I wanna go back to the beginning of the story you started telling us at the at the at the beginning of this episode. So you come out of engineering school and you somehow end up at JLC. Yeah. How how did you even end up on their doorstep? Let alone possibly 'cause you you had no intention of going into watchmaking, right? No
Unknown . Um okay I'll I'll I'll do a a quick summary. I had absolutely no link to watchmaking. My dad was working for Nestle, a big conglomerate, uh technical sales engineer, whatever he was. And I um I actually fell into watchming the very first time because at 18 my parents wanted to give me a watch, which is what happens in Switzerland, even in those days. And uh so they gave me a budget, which was um seven hundred francs, which was an enormous amount of money for me and for them. And uh so I started looking around, went to stores to see what I could get for that sort of money, because I was absolutely not into watches. And one day I'm sitting next to a a guy in university and I say, so what are you wearing? And the guy says a Rolex. I'm like, what's a Rolex? That's the extent of my passion for watchmaking when I'm 18 years old. And he starts explaining and I'm intrigued and I ask him, so what's the price? And he tells me, four thousand seven hundred francs. Remember, I had seven francs a little above your budget. And uh I just I went berserk on this poor guy. I insulted him. I'm like this is what I used to make uh by being a cinema usher, like two, three evenings a week, uh by selling hi-fi on Saturdays, by doing maths courses during lunch breaks. That's probably what I made in a year. And um and this guy was wearing it and plus with antiquated technology on his wrist. Now we're talking of nineteen eighty five. Okay. So um a few years later I um um uh actually there's an there's an project in my engineering school which is all about um engineering and sociology and I chose to s sort of discover why people would pay these insane amounts of money for something which was antiquated technology. And I sent letters out to um the big brands and in those days those big brands were so small. I think in those days like Breguer was doing six hundred watches a year and Vacheron seven hundred watches a year. That meet a little student from a local university gets a letter back from the CEOs of each company. Not bad. Saying, well, young man, uh if you come at this hour, that day, I'll give you one hour. So I met um I met Steve Erkrat at uh AP Henri John Belmont at Yegolacult. Mr. Baudet at Breguet. And um so there I am. I'm going to interview them and like explain to me uh why. And how old are you when this is happening? I'm probably about twenty twenty-one. Okay. Yeah. And um and they all more or less tell me the same thing. We know what we do is pointless, but it's so beautiful. And for me it was a shock because engineering college in those days, at least in Switzerland, th the notion of beauty never, ever was was even factored anywhere is you have to be efficient. We're Swiss, we're engineers, we have to be efficient. And um and so this sort of sort of beauty which became something emotional, as I was already amazed. And then they they came up with and you do realize that if we do go down and we don't survive this era, generations of artisans are gonna disappear. People who have given from father to son the tricks of how to do a brigade curve on a spiral and how to angle that uh that angle, etc. etc. All those all that knowledge is gonna disappear. And that's another world from premiere for me was somebody talking about humanity. There is no, oh at least there was no humanity in my engineering studies. And I actually fell completely in love with it. And um and then I went to do my military service. That's what we do when we're Swiss. And uh had a uh absolutely horrible accident. I um I shouldn't be here. I mean there is no reason I should be alive after that accident. And uh after six weeks in hospital and I know like six weeks uh at home in a cast to complete my whole upper body in a cast. Um luckily for me, my left hand, my left arm was free. Uh I actually jumped on a bus and um went up to the center of the Lausanne where I used to live. And I had in my mind for a year I'd been seeing that able chronograph with the primero movement in steel. Everybody was buying the golden steel in those days. And it was just all in steel. And I go to the store and I say, I'm completely in my cast. You can imagine the the thing this youngster comes completely in a cast coming in and says, um, I want that watch. And she gives me the price and I buy it. And she she puts it on my wrist and I go back in the bus and I'm screaming in the bus. I like, I got my watch. So that's how I realized I was completely hooked, but didn't mean at all I was going to work in that industry because nobody wanted to work in that industry. It was dying. It didn't make any sense to go and work there. And um and then so the the story which is completely true and which is completely insane, is that um I think in January ninety-one, just at the end of my studies, I um because I actually did my military service in the middle of my stu at the end of my studies, and then I still had my diploma. Um I I'm skiing with some friends in Verbier in Switzerland and we stop at a at a cafe and then there's only John Belmont uh with his family, and oh hello, how are you? Uh you wanna have a coffee? I'm like, yeah, sure. And um we talk, he asked me what I'm gonna do, and I'm interviewing f with Proctron Gamble with Nestle and uh and at the end as a joke I tell him, Well, Mr. Belmont, if PNG doesn't give me the job, uh you can always give me a job at Jaeger. And he laughs, I laugh, and that's it. I mean imagine if I hadn't said that. And um imagine if I hadn't been skiing that day. Um and a week later, he has me called up and would you go and see uh Mr. Belmont at the Valley Jou? I say, yeah sure. So I I go into my little old beaten-up uh Opal Corsair. You don't know what an Opal Corsair, you don't want to know. And um and I I drive up to the Valley Jou and it's the interview of my life. Henri John, uh the man who's gonna save Jaeger with Gunter Blumley, um interviews he's for three hours without asking me a question. He show takes me through the factory which is derelict and says this is what we're gonna do, this is what I'm gonna do, and then he shows me the products and like, okay, well, this is what there is today, but we're gonna do the géographique and the grand reveil and the we're gonna do a bigger reversal and we're gonna do this and we're gonna do that. And I'm just listening. And the end of three hours he more or less says, okay, you've got the job. I'm like, what? And um he says I I I need a a young engineer like you who's passionate about watches uh to help me because I'm gonna create a job as product manager, you're gonna develop all the movements and the watches with me and uh I was clearly I think I I think I still remember that moment. It was uh twenty-seven years ago. Um I was in awe but at the same time there was like the cerebral part kicking in going, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, uh this is all great and romantic, but uh what am I doing? So I said, look, I have to think about it because I think Nestle was like seven interviews and I was in the third or the fourth and it would take uh months to get there. Slowly different process. It definitely slowly different very different process. And um and he um he just looked at me and I often quote this what he said to me and that's why he said in many ways he changed completely saved my life actually. Um he said young man you have to know one thing in your life. Do you want to be one amongst two hundred thousand people in are a big corporation or do you want to be one amongst the three or four of us are gonna save Jaeger? Just d think about that. Good sales pitch. Yeah. That's a pretty good pitch. And uh the next morning I called him up and I said, Okay, that's that's gonna change my life. I owe him everything. And he did? Yeah. So the the the watch that you got from your parents was the Ebel chronograph? No, no. Oh no, I can't talk about that one. I bought a Tissot quartz watch. Okay. Golden Steel. Oh my gosh. I look at it from time to time and I take it out of safe and like, ah. But you know what? It's part of the journey. Absolutely. And that's what I tell all collectors. Because a lot of them are, oh my gosh, I'm gonna sell this and I why did I buy that? When you bought it, it was the best piece ever. Don't forget that. And you were that person who thought it was the best piece. So when you look at your collection of watches thirty years down the road, you'll probably not wear half of them, but that's the man or the woman you wear. And that's important.
Unknown Yeah. I have a uh a mundane Swiss railway watch, 38mm, quartz, big date, that I got from my high school graduation from my grandmother. And I got it because I had a teacher in high school who was really into to clothes and style, who had one, and told me he thought it was the you know the coolest design you could get for for that kind of money. And uh I got one and I wore it I think probably every day for four or five years till I you know started getting into vintage watches and bought a vintage watch, but I still have it. I haven't worn it in forever, but I uh I I have it. It sits with all my other watches. The Monday Railway Watch is a design icon. Yeah exactly. Absolutely. It is. Yeah. And it's uh you know what was James, do you do you have a watch that kind of fills that role for you? Oh like an early one that's probably semi-embarsing I mean one name's not not that embarrassing embarrassing I can blow you guys out
Unknown of the water like so a handful of the first watches I bought were Invictus. Oh I know. I didn't I didn't know that they were gaming Rolex. I didn't like I bought one that looked just like a two tone sub, I bought one that looked just like a Daytona. And then like six months later, this is kind of like when I got into watches before before Hoden Key, before Blog to Watch, before there was like any anyone like making a business out of writing about watches online. So there was like a watch report, which ended up being the first one that I wrote for. Yeah. Maybe a year later. And you know, you start and I had a I bought a a couple of those Invictus, you're like 80 bucks. Remarkable what they can make for 80 bucks, but it's somebody else's design. And then, you know, six months later, I've read everything I can find online about watches, and and and you realize like, okay, well, I can't wear this. This is like it's uh it might as well be a fake. They just change the name on it. And uh and then uh you know, you you do whatever I I do what everybody does, you find Seiko. Yeah. And uh and I mean it's just one of the most impressive businesses in the world. It's the what they can again create at sixty, seventy, f forty doll I mean I think w some of them are forty bucks that I bought some of the Seiko fives and then you can go up to forty grand, fifty grand more. Yeah. Essentially from roughly the same people. It's incredible. Value for money. I mean from a normal Seiko to I'm so happy that people are finally waking up to Grand Seiko. Oh yeah. For years they were they were they they were hindered by the fact that that there was that word Seiko. But it's I shouldn't be saying this, but it's honestly one of the best values for money
Unknown ever. Absolutely. I mean you say you shouldn't be saying this. I mean there's we find that whenever we're in Switzerland, there's inevitably somebody on our team wearing a Seiko or Grand Seiko or something, and the looks you get from people, it's it's like you're a traitor, you know, that you could wear a Japanese watch in in Switzerland. Is that do you find that that feeling is still there?
Unknown No, th you know what what I do see is that unfortunately in watch brands there are very few people who like watches now. And that's what actually resumes the the issue of our industry. Is it just business creating more business? They've got all their own reasons um but they actually don't like watchmaking, they don't like watches, they don't appreciate it. Um they've got their own personal reasons to be there. It's a very successful industry today. Uh it's a powerful industry, it gives a lot of ego. It um uh it's people feel good when they're there, but mostly for the wrong reasons. And uh it's interesting, I um I just hired a brilliant young man from one of the groups, I will not say which brand and which group. And um and uh I called him the day after he resigned, I said, so how did it go? And he said, Um, you know what? I am s I was already so happy I signed on with you guys, but now I'm even happier and I'm like, why? He said because eighty percent of my colleagues have never heard of MBNF. And I don't I don't say that everyone's just sitting here shaking his head just baffled. I I don't think that everybody should know who we are, but I mean if you're working in a beautiful high end brand, you should at least have heard about us or heard about Urk or Dubatoon or Kari or or Gronafels. I mean you you should know a little bit of that. But that's the state of our industry today. Not interested. Just
Unknown not interested. That's so baffling. I mean, spe speaking of those those brands you just mentioned, I do want to make sure we we give some time to Opus. You know, I I think Opus is one of those programs that for for people in the industry, people like like the three of us, it has this kind of like mythic status. And I think you know, when when it was in its its heyday, consumers really knew about it. But I I wonder if some of the people listening might not fully understand the scope of Opus. So you're you're at JLC, you're there for what about eight years? Seven years. Seven years. Um, and then make the move to Harry Winston, kind of stabilize that business, and then you launch Opus. Can you tell us what Opus is, uh, how the idea came about. Kind of give us the the Opus 101 uh class Uh
Unknown It's interesting how looking back between the perception the world has of it and the reasons why it was created, there's such a difference. Um when I when I entered Harry Winston, I remember telling Mr Winston Ronald Winston, who was a wonderful gentleman, said look, um you're the one of the greatest, if not the greatest in those days jeweler in the world. Your watches are just not up to the standards. I mean your watches have to be amongst the greatest watches. So he said, okay, what are we going to do? I said, We're not a manufacturer, we're not watchmakers, we don't have two hundred fifty years of history, we don't make our own movements, etc. It's all the don'ts were there. Now what are we? And um I sort of boiled it down to let's say we're rare time pieces, actually just because nobody could find them anywhere because nobody wanted them. So we basically said rare, that becomes a uh an asset. And uh so it was rare diamonds and rare movements. So the rare diamonds was was a no-brainer, were Harry Winston. And the rare movements was not a no-brainer. That's where we had to I had to go start hunting. And uh one of the things I also have to thank Mr. Winston for was when I when he hired me, I said I'm not gonna join this company if it's only to do a diamond set quartz watches. I'm not interested in that. We have to create great movements, great product, because otherwise I have no point in being here. And you said, oh go for it. So then I started hunting. Let's not forget I came from Jaeger where we did everything ourselves. So I had virtually no network. We we were like a little island where um we just did everything ourselves. So I didn't know all the great watchmakers out there. And so I started going around and uh knocking on doors. Hello, I'm Max from Harry Winston, and we're trying to do great watches and could you help us out? And um in the middle of all that, by chance, and actually not by knocking on his door, I um I met Francois Poljon, and I remember uh Basel 2000. He launched his brand for the first time in Basel at least. And um we had dinner that week like three times together, amongst other guys, and and uh at some point François Paul was telling me, Ah it's difficult because um people come, they see the product, they like it. But let's not forget we're talking of eighteen years ago. Independent watchmaking was just one showcase at the academy for most of the creators. It didn't exist. And you say, well, um people come and they they ask me um what have you done? Who are you? Why why should we give you your ma money? And um and he signed NDAs with every single company he'd worked for with all the different creations he'd done for them. So basically last day of the fair, he's telling me this while we're walking down from Hall 11 to Hall 10, actually on the escalator. And I sort of go, well, why don't we do a product together? Because I haven't signed the NDA. So I can tell the world how brilliant you are. We Harry Winston can tell the world Francois Paul Jean is incredible because and um he's like, Okay, well, why not? And that's how it all started. So it's interesting that by trying to help a friend, we created something which is in a way has been a a little bit of a game changer and I totally utterly believe in karma um I'm actually an atheist um but I completely believe in karma and uh that's just one of the many man,y many, examples of things that have happened to me in my life of by trying to help people or trying to do good, actually something great happened.
Unknown Yeah. I mean I I think a few things you mentioned people today might not fully understand if they're not kind of marinating in the industry all the time, which is in 2000 you said there there was no independent watchmaking. Like the the idea of people like MBNF and Urverc and Francois Paul Journ didn't exist. That just wasn't the landscape at all. And I think it's it's so much of what enthusiasts today, even if they're not buying those watches, still find exciting and exhilarating about the watch industry in the watch world. And I I think it's been a big part in propping up the bigger brands as well because it's just breathed so much excitement into the industry and it's forced some of the established players to maybe think a little bit differently and to be a little more creative, maybe. Do you think so? Really? I think so. I think to compete, right? I I think there's gotta be some energy that that runs off.
Unknown I hope it has. Um I hope that whatever we independents who are creating and it's true that I mean if you look at most of the innovation and the creativity and the ideas I'm not talking of fundamental research I'm talking of real artistic creativity watchmaking creativity comes very much, I find from my my friends and colleagues. But I'm actually not sure that the industry is going down that road, the big players. A few are trying, but um I think a lot are are evident of the kind of apathy or disinterest that you mentioned earlier. At least you can see it breathed into the most common kind of commodity level of their product. But what a what's what I think is like what I think is so special and it and I think like if you if you need an example of like if if I what I'm about to say doesn't make sense to you when you hear it, go into a mad gallery and I think it makes sense because that's such a special place. Um and it's just pure enthusiasm. Four walls just cased uh in things that that like have no other purpose except the way that they make you feel. And the way that should make you feel is like wonder and like whimsy and and and curiosity and all of that just breathes enthusiasm. And I think that's what you get from these brands that that uh you know that that were just kind of on the cusp of of hitting enthusiasts, say 18 years ago. Just for people who may not know, can you say what a mad gallery is
Unknown ? Yeah, so the mad gallery is uh a showcase you've is it three now or four?
Unknown We just opened the fourth one yet. Fourth one now. Congratulations. Very cool. And um and so I've been to the one in Geneva. I every time I get to Geneva it's it's uh I don't love Geneva, especially 'cause we're always there in January. It's very cold. Right. But I do love going there and then around the corner there's uh the place that does the princess almonds. The orange power fantastic. So that's the little one two punch of that that part of Geneva as you spend an afternoon. And then of course of course across the street is uh David Off's uh which is a great best best spot to be in Geneva. But the the Mad Gallery is a collection of various um mechanical and artistic oddities, I suppose, that have been curated at a very high level, generally for the gallery. Yeah, exactly. It's basically a gallery which is only for a kinetic and mechanical art. Um When I when I started out with MBNF and I was only doing horological machines, most of the watch retailers looked at me and go, Well, that's not a watch. Which in a way was of compliment. I was really happy. But then I thought at some point maybe they're right I should actually be featured in art galleries, MBNF pieces. So I went to art galleries. And they just looked at me blankly and said, this is a watch. So clearly, so something was not working out here. And um and from there the idea uh emerged that if we m actually bring together, like we've often done with with the the the independence. If we bring together people like minded creators, but in different segments, not in watchmaking, but mechanical art we call it, and we showcase it and make people understand that, maybe they'll understand better what we're trying to do. And we we were so clueless when we opened the first one. I mean, oh we didn't even have a credit card machine, didn't even know where to find one. Um and um it was the business model comes later. It's like we we did this and really my team was looking at me. Nobody'd ever done retail, me included, ever. Uh we were really we were so clueless. And um and I remember I was so proud we'd managed to get Shikara Nagata's uh motorcycle. Shikara um is created five motorcycles in 18 euros. Um they're all totally unique. Of course, he buys uh he he finds very, very rare uh vintage engines and then he by hand makes every single part around it takes him three to four years and he'd never sold one and I went to Japan to meet him. It was just that that was one of the greatest meetings in my lifetime. And uh he actually accepted to have uh them come over but he actually came with them because he was he never leaves his his babies and and we're showcasing those bikes and people were coming in and their jaws were dropping open. And uh yeah sure. You can you can go and buy a great Ducati, Harley, BMW, whatever you want for probably 20 grand. It'll be way more efficient than a Shikara Nagata, which costs probably about $370,000. But it's three to four years of the life of a genius, of a man who's given everything for his his art, who when I met him in um in uh Japan the first time uh he actually told me it was an amazing moment where he told me through translator that his uh wife had left him and he had no more friends, but he couldn't stop doing what he was doing. That's that was that that those are moments in your life which you'll always remember. And every time I see a Nagata, I'm like I think of that phrase. So when you look at that, maybe you will understand what we're trying to do. And it started that way. That's how the Mad Gallery concept happened. And it snowballed without any marketing dollars or anything. It's just word of mouth. And then we opened one with a local partner in Taipei and then one in Dubai and we opened one in Hong Kong. And we I'm I'm still amazed. I'm not very often amazed by what happens to us. I I absolutely adore the gallery. I like I couldn't I couldn't recommend it enough. If you're in Switzerland, go to Geneva even just to go to the gallery. Uh it's it's just super fun. I've like every time I'm in there there's something I haven't seen before it always kind of has but it has the same like spirit or soul in the room and a lot of it comes through the these like i eccentric products and uh beautiful displays and and it's just some the I mean it's not a huge space, but you c I can spend a lot of time just like you can get really close to stuff and there's a lot of detail there. And some of the moving sculptures, there was one that was kind of like wheat moving in the in in the wind. I I that mesmerized me. Like I stood there like a three year old like just staring at this thing as it get like light comes back and forth across these kind of like long reeds. Right. I don't remember what it was called but it was stunning. It's the Inaho by a Japanese artist who's based in London. Um so we c we curate these incredible pieces which usually are um uh most of the artists we curate can't barely make ends meet because traditional galleries are not interested in that. And uh and so I think also there's a moment in in in my life now where um I was probably a very self-centered young man at some point where I was trying to um true to survive and to grow and to become and um now uh after hitting fifty I think uh I feel so happy to help other people have got talent which it's already happened with with Opus. It started off with that. Um, then MBNF of course we credit every single person who's who's worked on the project. Uh we try and act as much as we can as a communication base for their talent. And uh because without them, my ideas would just stay ideas. That y you have to have the humility to understand that you're just nothing. You're just I I just have ideas which are weird ideas, quirky ideas, different ideas. I I used to be a kid who didn't fit in. I was the weird one. I was the geek. I mean I I had a Commodore sixty four as my best friend. Um and uh you probably don't know what a Commodore sixty four is and uh and uh pretty And so it's I realized later on in life being different, being the weird one, is okay. I think it's probably one of the biggest realizations. And then afterwards you realize that um whatever you think you are, whoever you think you are, you're nothing without everybody around you. And uh that's how it happened,. Opus NBNF, the Mad Gallery, everything else you're gonna see is is a step in that direction
Unknown . Yeah, I think it's funny that you you know you say your your best friend was a Commodore sixty four. I I think the perception both in the industry and kind of out outwardly is that you're a community builder. I mean that's what you you do from Opus to MBNF to the Mad Gallery. It's always about other people and it's about bringing people together and collaborating and kind of the the whole being greater than the the sum of its parts. How how did you kind of arrive at that as as your I guess like mo modus operandi I I I guess. Huh
Unknown . Um it's probably because I suffered very long as a as a child of being lonely and uh I I'm an only child and uh my parents didn't really interact much with me. And um I it's very tough for a youngster and a teenager specifically to be shunned and not to have friends. It's it's it's a disaster. And it it gives a very um you you these these are these are how you say um it harms you so much that it sticks with you for a very long time. And we actually arrived at college and we actually my parents moved into town. We were out in the countryside before and they started traveling. And um I s I um I sort of intuitively started becoming like the guy who was organizing stuff and helping everybody and or or I was the organizer. And everybody was happy to have an organizer do the stuff for them. And uh suddenly I felt appreciated, suddenly I felt useful, um and it made me happy and I think it just took over from there that I realized that helping other people and and bringing people together made that people suddenly recognized me because I I had such a low self-esteem and um I think it's I'm um actually I'm talking while I'm thinking, uh uh I think that's what more or less brought this on now. Um while I'm while you're I'm talking to you guys.
Unknown Yeah. I think it's another case of of something we've talked about, which is like I don't it doesn't sound like this was like in a business model from the beginning that you said, you know, if I bring a whole bunch of smart people together I can make a lot of money or make a successful business. It was just kind of how you went about doing things and it seems like it's worked, I guess.
Unknown I think MBNS is really a uh how do you say uh an emanation from my my most basic neurosis. Um I actually only realized later on why I'd called the brand Unfriends. Because I was that little kid who was craving to have friends. When I did it, there was it just came naturally, and everybody told me this is the worst I mean you can't call a high-end complicated watch brand on friends. And even today, actually it's interesting, uh, I had one of our best retailers the other day say like can you please stop with this stupid name? Nobody knows what it means, MBNF. And it's true, it's interesting, but because us in the community, we we and I I'm very proud of being a geek, so I I I hold the flag of the geek people. Um we know that MBNF stands for Max Bus or Maximilian Business Friends. But people now are discovering the brand. They're like, who's this F guy? Francis? Fabian? Who's this? Francois. Yeah. Like, what? And then you realize and that's that retail was right. He was like, we have to explain this to people. Well when you start explaining you've already lost them. Uh yeah, it has to be easier. In marketing terms, he's right. But uh he's like just call it Maximilian Business, get over with it. And I'm like, no, no, that's that no. But actually for the anecdote, which is if I find a funny anecdote, the brand was not supposed to be called MBNF. It was supposed to be called BNF. Every single first drawings I did, I had written B and F, Booser and Friends. And then when I decided I was actually going to create the brand, I went to the um trademark attorneys and said, okay, can we, I was still working in Harry Winston, can we can I uh can I trademark this? And they all went like, oh no way. Like, why? Bell and Ross. Bell and Ross had registered BNR everywhere. And of course they would have not been very happy that a new brow brand comes out called B and F. So they're like, you're gonna go into a wall before you even start with everybody hitting on you legally. I was like, oh shoot. Um so I actually added the M, which I I still today don't feel comfortable with, because it sort of makes that I'm more important than the friends, because I've got two letters instead of one. And uh um I still today would prefer to be calling it BNF. But hey.
Unknown You know. I think you know you said you said a moment ago, once you have to start explaining it to customers, you lose the customer. One of the things that's always impressed me about your products and if you do a search of Hodinky you can probably find that I'm sometimes a very lazy writer and I fall back on the same the same trope over and over again. Uh but it it really with with MBNF I always have the same thought when I see the new product, which is this thing just puts a smile on my face. I I I don't think in you know I've been familiar with the brand for probably six or seven years now, and I don't think once I've had either you or Harris or somebody show me a product and not just grinned like like a little boy. Like it's they don't require any explanation for for me. And you know, explanation can sometimes make them better and you appreciate the the technical nuances. But there's something really unique about the products in the way they they do make you feel something in a way that I think a lot of watches don't. Yeah and the other thing I would add is the la more
Unknown that like the more that you're telling some of your backstory, the more I can see that exact story in the designs, in the product. You have you had mentioned that like uh you've you've spent time finding people who do better at things than than where your weaknesses are you found strengths and you see that in the friends product in the in the friends side of the the whole equation is finding people that have these defined excellent traits and bringing them into what you're very good at and what you're capable of doing. And you see that all kind of layered in, and then then you know you say that you hold the flag for the geeks. And of course, like there's a defined kind of neo-futurism that kind of traces a line through some of uh some of the product and then of course the clocks and and all that kind of thing. So you can see uh Commodore sixty four b uh uh thread in some of the work that goes on, some of the design. So the fascination with you know, pre pre future stuff and and uh I I I think it's it's really fascinating to hear the story having already known so many of the products and uh and to see how that I don't know, like that you want to talk an overused term like DNA, but how that there is like a DNA there that makes sense. I I call it more my biography. There you go. I like that better. It's my autobiography. It's interesting because um when I started with HMs and did HM1, 2, 3, 4, more and more people would look at m my products and and say my creations and say, wow, it's so coherent. And that's made me mad. Because the whole idea of MBNF was like I am going to create something completely different at every model. Like well basically every every piece uh we we create could be a brand in itself. That was the idea. And um and when after four or five pieces they would look at them and I thought I'd gone all over the place and been super creative and and then you realize you can't escape your own DNA. And that whatever if I go on down that avenue or that avenue and if you look at a today a Legacy Two and a Horological Machine Nine, which are two flying balance wheel movements with a differential, th uh in a layman looks at them he would never ever see anything in common. But if you know a little bit about watchmaking, you put them one next to the other, and it seems an evidence. I can't escape myself. So for me it's an autobiography. Um the whole idea of MBNF is the last day of my life to be proud. When that's that's something I understood uh fifteen years ago is probably the most important goal of my life is that that last day I look back and think I did well. I remember I remember saying the eulogy of my dad when he passed away and we didn't get along together unfortunately it's probably my biggest regret. But I I could say he was a good man. I hope one day, if that day, somebody says that of me. will have been worthwhile. So coming back to that, the values, um and a lot of people ask me, what what should I buy? That's the horrible. That's the horrible question. That's the worst question. Because they like they give you the power. They they give you you're the specialist, you say. And everybody's different. I'm like just of course unfortunately when you're in in d independent watchmaking we're in in price points which are way higher than m any mere mortal can go to. But it's like you should first know who you are, what is important for you. And the other point is you should know, try and understand the integrity and the why of a brand, of a creator. And um I am so proud when I wear my my Kari or my Urwerk or my my Stepa and Sarpaneva. Not only because I work with all of these guys and I love them, but because I know the ordeal they've gone through in their lives to be able to create and that for none of these people the business or the money was the goal. This is what they do. This is the the only thing they feel they're good at. And they're just writing their story. And they've gone through insane difficulties. Like ourselves. I mean, we in 13 years we had four super rough years where we nearly disappeared at some point. Um when when you when you own one of their pieces, you know it's not because they were trying to make money. And that that's very important for me. Again, that's for me. For most people it's oh look, I'm showing you that I've got a ton of money and I've wearing that ultimate status symbol. It's not my my thing, but luckily there's still people out there who who craftsmen and and creators like the people I just mentioned who um create because they love what they do.
Unknown Perfect. Well, you know, we're getting close to the end of the episode and we we like to do a little sort of lightning round toward the end of each episode. So I've got a couple a couple little questions here for you. You can answer them as as short or as long as as you would like. Okay. Um to start things off kind of al along the lines of what we were just talking about, what's a watch you've seen recently that really caught your eye?
Unknown Oh wow. Um it has to be uh of course it has to be Red Chap. Yeah um I I um one of the one of the things which makes me sad today in my in my world is that um all of us independents we're becoming old fogies. I mean th the youngest of us is Felix, I think, Baumgartner, who's forty something, because he started so young. Um and Rechep gives uh for me is the light at the end of the tunnel. There is a next generation out there. What he does is stunning. The integrity we're talking about, the way he works. And this is Regtick. Yeah, sorry. A cribio, right? Exactly. Exactly. And um and I think I actually really like his previous cases, but a lot of people didn't understand his case design and therefore didn't see his movements. But now that he simplified the case, now suddenly everybody discovers what a great watchmaker he is. That's also makes it a little bit sad as that most people need the decoding machines. Um but um he he he he's what he does is great. So
Unknown yeah. Perfect. Yeah, I have to say the the watchy release this year, the Chronomet Contemporan is I've said it here on the show before, one of my favorite pieces that I've seen in a very, very long time. It's an incredible watch, for sure. What's the best place you've traveled in the last year
Unknown ? Oh. Um Japan. Uh we took uh we took twelve days with my wife. I've got we've got two daughters, uh one is five, one is practically two, and therefore we haven't travelled much if ever over the last five, six years. And um so it was our first big trip together for a long time and we took twelve days and uh Japan is so fascinating. Yeah I think it's the only place in the world today as far as uh these cities go, where I feel in another world. I feel that um if you go now from Singapore to Dubai to LA to Paris to London it's sort of like copy paste and then you go to Tokyo or Kyoto and you're blown away. It was it was a great trip. Great
Unknown . We've had we've gotten Japan before on that answer. We have gotten Japan before. I feel like that's very on brand for sure. Um what's the best piece of advice you ever received and who gave it to
Unknown you? Ah. Oh I'll have to the few battling in my head there. Um it has to be Günter Blumlein. I was so lucky to be able to work long time with him. I mean my seven years at Jaeger. He would come every two, three months, so Günter Blumline, the man who was heading I Jaeger and IWC in those days and single handedly with a very small team, spearheaded lange. And um he was probably the most brilliant person I've met uh in in the in the watch industry. And he would come every two, three months and we'd actually uh spend two days together working on all the new products. And one day we're in a in a strategy or product meeting, and we were presenting a I can't even remember what it was. So we would present to him, and he was so brilliant that usually after he started talking, everybody just shut up. And um I disagreed with him. I can't remember what it was. And I started debating with him, which nobody ever dared do. And after three, four, five minutes, I could see he was getting annoyed. And everybody on the table was like thinking, oh my god, Max is gonna get fired. And um and I could be a little bit of a Jack Russell. And uh and so I was like on it and suddenly he just stops, looks at me, puts down his heart, he always had these half glasses on his nose, he put takes them off and he knows Mr. Boozer, oh shoot. Um creativity is not a democratic process. That is probably what has saved me over all these years. And that's why a lot of people ask me also at MBNF how do you work? How do you create with all these friends around? I mean, if you start asking everybody their advice, oh my gosh, you're gonna have the most horrible, boring product ever. So to create what you see, I have to be a dictator. I try and be an enlightened dictator reading I listen to everybody and I take the decision. So yeah, creativity is not a democratic process. The uh the saying is uh Yeah, exactly
Unknown . What's your guilty pleasure? Do you have a guilty pleasure? Chocol
Unknown ate. Okay. Very very Swiss answer. Uh yeah, but um Swiss chocolate is often milk chocolate and I really don't like that. I like super dark chocolate. And I'm with you there. And um and now actually and uh have you guys tasted this chocolate called Orfèvre by these two guys in Geneva, Caroline and Francois Xavier, who've got created from bean to bar. Um they basically they sold everything they had to buy the machines and they buy now the um the beans and they roast them and they I don't know all the names, I know them in French. You basically do the whole process and they come out with this insane chocolate where on the it's a bit like us. You'll have on the on the paper around the chocolate every single uh thing they've done to it, the uh amount of minute they've roasted it and where it comes from, of course, and blah blah blah. And you taste something like that and then you can't go back to any normal chocolate. Caroline worked in the watch industry. Exactly. Yeah. Caroline Fix, yeah. Is she is she still working in the industry at all? No, she they they're more or less I think she's still they're still working a little bit on their communication company they had. And um it's uh I I just I buy two 20 slabs, 25 slabs every month from them. Oh amazing. It's like one a day. It's it's incredible. And they sell it in Geneva? Yeah, unfortunately they're not online. I keep on pushing them like please go online. And uh they still haven't do it. And it's understandable and they're it's very tough for them because um I mean it's it's not a it's it's you need to do massive volumes to try and break even. And that's not what they want to do. I mean they're they're the the independent artisans of chocolate making. And so I again I just want to help them out there because I what they do is incredible. Well to get some for the uh Hodinki office. Yeah, we got a third third stop in Geneva now. There
Unknown you go. There are now three good things to do. Two new chocolates in Mad Gallery. So is there something you've seen lately that you you want to recommend our listeners check out when they're done with the show? That's a tough one.
Unknown There is um there are two books I've read recently. They're probably not for everyone. Um one is called Sapiens and the other one is called Homodeus by the the same uh writer who is um what's his first name? Harari is his surname. He's a um Israeli historian, uh his history professor, who basically explains in sapiens uh how homo sapiens basically got rid of everything And from there you you understand how society has become what it is and you understand it's everything becomes so clear in what's happening in the world today by what he explains of how Homo sapiens became what he was. And then his follow up is Homo Deus, which is um his prognostic, and you may be wrong of now that we've arrived where we are, knowing who how we're built in our minds and how we function, how the world could be. And it um is sort of just it just made so much sense and it just uh how'll I say everything I I sort of felt in my guts about what I believe societies is I understood it there. So um again, not for everyone. Maybe p it will it'll m maybe be uh some people's beliefs will be a little bit rattled, but I thought it was a great read. Great. We'll link up to uh to
Unknown both of those in the the show notes. So people can check that out. Yeah. Yeah. I now know what I'm reading over the holidays. Thank you
Unknown . Uh yeah, my pick is uh is actually pretty simple and my guess is a lot of listeners have you know been through it when it first came out. It's something that I've I've started to re-love. You get sometimes you come back to an album and it hits you in a different way and that's uh Frank Ocean's Blonde. Yeah. I think that now that I've I've been through it I would say I've been through the album in its totality in the last month once a day. And uh I think it might be like Dark Side of the Moon for that entire genre. Like it it it it makes so many uh the the here's my tip is it like if maybe you know one or two songs, maybe you know Nikes. Um go back and listen to like um um Pink and White or Self-Control and do it with the lyrics. Like pull them up on your phone or if you're on Spotify, they do the like behind the lyrics or whatever. And actually like read what he's attempting to say because it's a the album is incredible sonically. It's a it's a it's one of those albums where like if I want to hear if a speaker or a headphone's really good, I'll go right to that album. And uh it's uh it's a work of art that I don't think has a parallel within its own genre. I think especially in the last decade. And I know it's a it' its's a real sweet spot for the Hodenkey crew. Um and every time I put up uh you know a post on Instagram that you know a song like you get a lot of feedback. So I know that people really like it. I'm not giving anybody like a an insider's tip. Just if you know, it came out it came out quite a few years ago and people are still waiting for the you know, the big follow up. But go back and and you know, if you have some time with a nice pair of headphones or or whatever, a quiet moment, put on a song or two, it's it's next level. Can I just jump in there? Um you said people are waiting for the big follow-up. When you create something which is pretty groundbreaking and very different, that pressure on creating the next one, I can so relate to that. I can imagine. You have to you have to absolutely make abstraction of that as a creator, because otherwise you just burn out.. Mm-hmm Well I mean and and you've seen it you can like you can you can look at parallels with uh Dave Chappelle, obviously, you know, huge amounts of success and and a lot and and you have to assume that as a creative y you cr maybe you were able to create that first thing or the even the second thing without that weight. But I I wonder how that affects the creative process when that's the weight that's there all the time. When you create something which is completely out of the boundaries, you're terrified that nobody's gonna like it, and therefore nobody's gonna buy it. So that basically you're committing business suicide. You're you're you're you're being happy as a creator, but you're killing your company. And then afterwards, when you start gathering a bit of success, that I am terrified it's not gonna sell anymore starts going away. But now it's oh my god, the pressure of all the fans who expect to be blown away at each creation. Exactly. Um and I um in my little way have to be very careful of not thinking of that because otherwise it would stop creating. I can't say about it than that for sure. Yeah, um I
Unknown think that's perfect. Absolutely. I'm gonna recommend another album that's very, very different from Frank Ocean. Super. Um, it's the strange record called Oversleepers International, and it's by this band Emperor X, who I had never heard of, and a friend recommended it to me maybe I guess maybe a month ago. I guess it was while I was in Geneva for the the Grand Prix, he uh sent it over and uh I become totally obsessed with this album. And it's it's strange, it's sort of I guess it's sort of rock and roll, sort of punk, somewhere in the middle, maybe a little folksy at times. Um the lyrics are really smart, it's fun, it's the kind of thing uh certain tracks you want to put on, you know, kind of at night with headphones on, maybe while you're reading something or just relaxing. And there are other songs that are like almost party music. Um it's super fun and I've just been listening to it a ton lately. Uh I think it's another one of those things some people are gonna really love it and and you know, shoot me DMs if you do. Um other people are gonna hate it. Please don't DM me if you hate it. Don't at me on this. Do not at me on this one. Um I think probably like two thirds of the people listening are not going to like it. But for the third of you who do, um it's one of the most kind of esoteric and enjoyable pieces of music I've I've discovered recently. Awesome. So great. Cool. Well, thank you guys for joining us. Thank you, Max. I know it's uh you know early and you got you got a big weekend ahead of you at uh age ten as well. Ingreed. But um it was totally worthwhile. Thank you guys. Thank you. Thanks. This week's episode was recorded at Miritone Studios in New York City and was produced and edited by Grayson Korhonen. Please remember to subscribe and rate the show. It really does make a difference. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next week for a series of special episodes live from SIHH 2019.