Everything You Need To Know About Stone Dials With Pierre Biver and Two Vintage Dealers¶
Published on Wed, 6 Nov 2024 18:00:00 +0000
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Synopsis¶
This episode of Hodinkee Radio explores the fascinating world of stone dials in watchmaking through three expert conversations. Host Tony Traina speaks with Pierre Bevert of JC Bevert about modern stone dial production, Jasper Leifring of Amsterdam Vintage Watches about collecting vintage stone dials, and Eric Gustafson of Hairspring Watches about recent scholarship challenging long-held beliefs about "obsidian" Rolex dials.
Pierre Bevert discusses the technical challenges of creating modern stone dials, including high failure rates (sometimes 25 dials broken for every successful one), sourcing difficulties, and the varying properties of different stones. He explains how materials like mother of pearl are relatively easy to work with, while stones like corundum ruby prove extremely challenging. The brand has embraced stone dials as a signature element, using materials like obsidian, petersite, and various other minerals to create unique, contemporary pieces that honor watchmaking heritage.
Jasper Leifring provides crucial insights into vintage stone dial collecting, particularly focusing on Rolex production from the late 1960s onward. He explains the authentication challenges, condition concerns (especially hairline cracks in materials like malachite), and the importance of period-correct details. Leifring emphasizes that each stone dial is truly unique due to natural variations in the materials, making them particularly appealing to collectors seeking one-of-a-kind pieces.
Eric Gustafson reveals groundbreaking research challenging the market's long-standing identification of certain Rolex "obsidian" dials. Through careful study of vintage Patek Philippe extracts and consultation with gemologists, he and others have concluded these dials are more likely patinated onyx rather than obsidian. This discovery highlights how much remains to be learned about vintage watches and underscores the importance of careful scholarship in the collector market, particularly as sophisticated fakes become more prevalent.
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Transcript¶
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| Tony Traina | This episode is brought to you by Hodinki Insurance. Collecting watches is fun. Insuring watches is not. But with Hodinki Insurance, we've teamed up with Chubb, the premier insurer of valuable collections, to offer a better and more seamless experience to ensure your watches and even jewelry. Minimizing the paperwork and maximizing the protection so you can stop worrying about your watches and focus on enjoying them. Hodiki Insurance, protect what you love. Visit insurance.hodiniki.com for more details. Over the past few years, stone dials have seemingly popped up everywhere. More modern brands are making them. At the same time, vintage examples have become more collectible and seen big jumps in prices. But stone dials are still a relatively undiscovered corner of watch collecting. They're not well understood on the vintage or modern side. So I wanted to cover them on Hodiki. Typically, we do this by talking to a few experts in the space and synthesizing that into an in-depth article. But I decided to try something different this time around, hitting record on three conversations to learn about modern stone dial production, vintage collecting, and everything in between. I hope all three of these conversations help to give you a better understanding of stone dials. Without further ado, here's another episode of Hodin Key Radio. Our first guest is Pierre Bevert. In twenty twenty three, Pierre joined his father, industry legend Jean Claude, to launch JC Bevert. The brand launched with the Carrion Torbillon, a complex and modern celebration of hot horology. This year, Bevert has just introduced the automatique, a similarly high-end three hander. With each release, the brand has also celebrated stone dials, releasing limited editions with Obsidian, Mother of Pearl, and Peter Sight. So Pierre was the perfect guest to have on to talk about Stone Dials. Pierre, thanks for joining Hodinky Radio. Thank you, Tony, for having me. It's a pleasure to be able to uh to get on uh Hodinky Radio. So before we talk about Stone Dials, I want you to give us a little bit of an update on Bevere the brand, as I just mentioned. So officially launched in 2023, in development before that. Give us a little bit of insight into first of all the brand itself and how it's been going, how the launch of the automatic has been going, and then we'll talk about what you do with the brand. |
| Pierre Bevert | The brand's really uh at a very important moment in its history because we sort of are opening our second chapter uh which is actually kind of the first chapter in reality uh back in twenty twenty three when we launched the carillon tourbillon it, was really about making a really high-end authority uh complex watch with you know one of our favorite complications which is the the miniature peter um which served many purposes, one being uh our expertise to be able to show the quality we're able to uh work at and produce, uh although not being watchmakers ourselves. It's something very important to to un to for us to to be honest about that. Uh it was also a way of uh positioning the brand, creating a circle of of clients that would not only be clients, but actually sort of invest in the brand through these big pieces, pricey pieces that um sort of required a certain level of trust and uh uh uh how do you say uh enthusiasm to participate in those first steps of building the brand and now we're really evolving with the automatic with first of all our proprietary movement. So although it was developed by Dubois des Pras, they developed it on upon our specs and the movement belongs to us, the architecture, etc. Which is something that we'll keep on going as we go forward in time with other complications where we always want to make our own movements according to the way we saw. The carillon was an ébauche by the sac des orlogis. And at the same time, it's a watch that is uh more I don't know how to say it in a very politically correct way because it it isn't, but more affordable in a way. Um where we can actually have more collectors maybe be involved with the brand by buying the automatic and have a watch that's simple simpler. Again, it's not actually that simpler, although it has less complications. And be able to develop the brand also with more volumes, more risks, and something that's uh also very interesting for the market, and that will be a cornerstone for later on when we build modules like a perpetual calendar that will go on top of it. Um so yeah, really interesting time for the brand. The automatic was received really well. We had really great feedback from the market, from the retailers, um, from suppliers as well, because we try to also, as we work a lot with different suppliers, we try to also gauge their interest in what they're doing because obviously they with so small uh volumes they really have to be dedicated uh and want to make that quality for us. So altogether we're super happy and now it's the challenging time which is going into production for the |
| Tony Traina | I saw the automatique for the first time in person just a few days ago. Actually, it was on the brother or it was on the wrist of your brother, Philippe. And he was wearing the rose on rose, I guess you could call it. It's a rose gold dial, rose gold case. And it's kind of the one to me that mixes heritage inspiration with modern manufacturing, if you will, the best. And I think what people have commented most on the aesthetic of your watches at least, if not the entire manufacturing process and the entire product, is how you all are are mixing heritage inspiration with things like modern manufacturing, uh, finishing and on the front with a dial and case and everything else as well. So I'm curious, uh, just at a high level for the entire brand, how do you all think about taking heritage or vintage inspiration and applying modern techniques to it? |
| Pierre Bevert | So I think it all stems from the original purpose of creating this brand with my father is our love for vintage watches or heritage timepieces. It's where it all starts, it's where the love and the passion comes from. At the same time, this idea that we want to produce things that are novel. There's this idea within the company and when we design, when we have ideas, that it's always important to respect and have knowledge of the past to really incorporate that in our watches. Um, but we want to participate in the evolution of the watch industry, even if it's a at a super small level. And for that, we also have to innovate and bring in some modernity. I will you know we always said just repeating something from the past lacks a bit of uh intention and mixing those two worlds is what we it's one of our uh that's what we use is uh thrive for as a as a company. And I think it also reflects the tension that might exist between my fo my father and myself, you know, different generations. And similarly to the people and the way we work, whether it's also the team, even when in the atelier when we have very experienced watchmakers and we've been joined by watchmakers that just uh left watchmaking school. So altogether there's really this tension between past and and future or or present. And we're not trying to build something from the past. |
| Tony Traina | Thanks for giving us just a little bit of insight into the brand. If you want more, Mark has Mark Koslerich has written a couple of articles on your last two releases, and there's more that he's got from you and from the brand itself that I'd recommend people read. But I brought you on specifically because I know you're very involved in the product and I wanted to talk about stone dials. So you all have done something interesting with your first two releases, the Curry and Turbillon and then the Automatique. You've also released Stone Dial versions of each in in limited editions, basically. Can you talk a little bit about why you and your father, I suppose, wanted to use and celebrate Stone dials and the |
| Pierre Bevert | craftsmanship that goes behind them? Yeah, in fact, even we it's it's even another thought process that the the carillon tourbillon only has stone dials for the moment. Um and the automatic has the Atelier series, which is more of the more exclusive series, the more limited run uh which uh has stone dials. And this idea was really that we're trying to implement within the brand that stone dials represent not the highest quality because obviously quality is not dependent on the materials but or not only but uh had this sort of exclusivity and it came from the fact that uh when collecting and obviously we have a very diverse way of collecting, uh, my father does. Uh, we collected a lot of Rolex stone dolls, um, a bit less of the piaget with a big regret for me, but it's really not my father's thing. Um, but so when he collected, he was really interested in that. And again, talking about modernity and at the same time heritage stone dows represented really an opportunity where we could um show something different than what the market is is seeing right now especially not necessarily in the use of stone because it's something that's been done, you know, throughout the ages, but in the way we make stone, in the way what techniques we apply to the stone, et cetera. And um we have this philosophy when designing which is also that we have to know our place within the market. If you talk about Gioshe Dalls, you have some brands out there that are the masters of making Geoche Dallves. Some people master Enamel very well. So we also wanted to find sort of a little niche where we could master something and it could become some kind of identity. And stones are perfect because they also have a lot of meaning to my father in terms of their properties. They're, you know, they calm you, they soothe you, they're eternal, etc. And for me, it's on a design point of view, it's really, really interesting what you can bring out of of different stones |
| Tony Traina | . Before we get to the technique and the manufacturing of them, there's even the process of choosing stone dials, I would imagine. So which ones you're going to use, where you're going to source them, uh costs and all of that. Could you give us a little bit of an insight into what that process is even like? |
| Pierre Bevert | Yeah. So uh first off uh it starts from the actual design of the doll, because the design of the doll will uh influence what stones you can use. Each stone has different properties. Uh you take Mother of Pearl, for instance, very easy to manufacture. Um, it's very nice to work with. Uh, you take on the other uh end of the spectrum curder Ruby, it's a nightmare. So depending on what your DAO will look like, for instance, if we take the one on the automatic with the railway track, etc. It's a two-piece, so there's two pieces of stone. Uh the outer ring of stone, for instance, in Curderby, at the moment we don't have the knowledge, not us personally, but our suppliers to manufacture card be like this. So first off, we design and based on this design, we work then with our stone suppliers and we already do a pre-selection of stones that we know will work or some that unfortunately it won't work. So it all starts there. And then once we have pre-selected these stones that are compatible with our design, we then go on looking at the different stones that we can find in terms of colors, in terms of techniques we can use because you can polish it, you can sandblast it, uh you can make giochet on it as well. Um then you start entering the world of just brainstorming on on the stones themselves and um that's pretty much how it how it goes. Most of the stones that we buy are bought by our suppliers. So yeah, um so our suppliers go to um different fairs or have their networks within um various parts of the world to supply the stones and they actually then get them and um uh we can choose directly from their stock. It's quite rare that we go on to ask asking our supplier for specific stone as their choice and their stock is quite extensive here already. Um it did happen for things like Opal or some specific J that we have made for our clients, uh but it's not the standard that's more of a one-off type of operation that that might happen sometimes. |
| Tony Traina | Can you give us you mentioned mother of pearl, for example, as being relatively easy to work with. Can you talk about what makes it so? Is it just it's less delicate and fragile so you can do more with it and it's less fragile in the manufacturing process, for example |
| Pierre Bevert | . Exactly. And it's it's a bit weird. And I'm not uh I'm not a gemologist of of any formation or else. It's just the experience I've had working with suppliers. But I believe and it's gonna be in my words, it's not necessarily the right technical words, but Mother of Pro, as it's a living uh material. Um, it it's actually very soft, and it's making it being very soft enables you to work on very thin layers. You can also manufacture it quite well. And it has a lot of uh the the fo the way it's structured as a as a material enables it to uh be worked with very well. An example which is the other one which is cur de ruby it's actually micro crystals that stick together to form the stone. And basically often what would happen is you manufacture it and there's a crack and it actually cracks half the dial, or even worse, sometimes when you're manufacturing, as it's composed of micro crystals, one pops off and then you have a dent in the dial because that crystal couldn't be cut by the machine, so it just removes itself and you don't have a a flat surface. Um so Mother of Pro and it which is the opposite, you can really manufacture it uh quite easily and it's because of its its texture, the the way it's soft and the way you can actually uh work with it and it's not it doesn't cra |
| Tony Traina | ck that easily. Maybe we could use a couple more examples because in the automatic, for example, you have piercite dials, white obsidian dials, I believe. Are there any others I what else did you use for the automated? Silver Obsidian? Silvered Obsidian, that's right. So could you talk about maybe was there anything in particular you liked about those stones that made them usable for the automatique or is it mainly just aesthetic |
| Pierre Bevert | ? So it was aesthetic and obviously the fact that uh they can be manufactured Petercite uh is a stone that actually is is not common but you can actually find it and watches have been made with peterside, lots of jewelry is made with peterside, so it's not like something brand new. But when we saw the block uh at our supplies, we really thought it had something amazing uh this mix between kind of it's it's very dark blue but at the same time there's some light hues we thought it would it could be something very very elegant and and chic to use with rose gold and at the same time the material enables us to be able to fit to our dial design, uh, which was great. And it was a new stone that we hadn't used before and it was just super nice. And it's also very variable by block, which means that when making a series you might also end up sometimes saying okay I'm gonna make uh Peter site uh I'm gonna make let's say fifty watches but your block that you base your original sample from actually contains twelve dowels well then you will struggle to find another block that has exactly maybe the same hue, the same structure, et cetera. So it can be quite challenging to work with stones. And then for the um sunblasted obsidian, we had used obsidian quite a lot. It's one of our favorite materials to use with because it's quite nice to work with as a material it's quite you have different possibilities we even were able to make guillotes on on obsidian and um we wanted to find a way to make it more contemporary than just you know high polishing on on the stone and we had the idea with the dial supply to try sandblasting it which gives this kind of cloudy uh velore feel to it. And this is where it actually gets interesting. Because usually you would look at a stone and you know you have it just the way it's always is, so polished etc. And sometimes just being a little bit imaginative and actually using it as you would use gold or steel or titanium or any other material, you actually end up having really cool effects that are quite innovat |
| Tony Traina | ive. Are there any particular challenges that you have heard about in communicating with with your suppliers that present themselves when trying to make a a stone dial? Uh yes, is the supplier doesn' |
| Pierre Bevert | t know his stone very well and you s you start a whole project and he gets like two months before the release and he's like, I actually know this stone doesn't work the same way the other stones work. This is something that has happened to us frequently in the past, which has pushed our uh our our our processes so that we test things before we actually launch a project. Um there's the supply. Supply is already always very challenging. Uh it's stone driven, so it depends on each stone. Uh and then there's also price points which can vary from different stones. So, in fact, with stones, you have all the challenges put in together in one, which is uh can can be a headache as well. And also the fact that even a stone that's pretty uniform, um in a way, like you'd say you you would say uh mother of pearl, you order 10 dials. Obviously, I'm not gonna go to the dial manufacturer and look at each dials of mother of pearl he makes and then you end up with a situation where you get one and for some reason a the it it doesn't look good because the vein is at some place, etc. But the dial is perfectly acceptable. It's the right condition, the quality is perfect, it respects all our specs. And this can be challenging because then you're left with a doubt that you don't see, you don't see, you don't feel comfortable um putting into a watch. And it can be annoying. Um also something that's that is important to ponder that not everybody uh thinks about is when you order a dial from a block, it's also quite important that you allow if it's a block that is very specific, service dials, we know from uh the heritage side of things that stone dials have a tendency to crack. So today, to be honest, we test watches with stone dials that go at a level of of shocks, which is completely acceptable for everyday use. But you know, things like that happen. So and imagine you have to replace you have a Peter side dial and it's a very specific block, the your dial cracks, and for some reason we cannot find the Peter site that's similar. What do we do? So when we work with exclusive blocks, which we often do, it's kind of challenging because we have the block which we can make ten dollars out of, but we know then that it's gonna be a series of seven, six, seven pieces because we allow always for some service um because these things happen. That's the way we have to to think. And if you don't think about it before, you can end up with a quite a tough problem. Also with stones there is this challenge which is the pricing of the stone. But you have two big two different rules for the the way a stone is priced. First of all, you have the ones that the raw material itself is pricey. Jade, opal, turquoise. Um I don't know all of them by heart, but you have a s few different types of stones that are really dependent on their quality. Their quality will define already the raw materials price. Then you have a second thing which can add on top or be separate is the number of uh breakage the the number of uh of dolls that you won't be able to use so for instance we had made for the miniature peters special malachite dial we broke twenty five for one. So the supplier has to in the price you have to include all the 25 dials that uh have broken that he cannot use from his block anymore to make one dial. And when you have a stone that's particularly rare and a block that's particularly rare, and in addition to that it's hard to manufacture, for instance jade, you end up with dials, stone dials that can go to a cost that is crazy because suddenly you have the raw materials expensive. Plus each time you break, you're breaking something very expensive. Um, which is something you don't find it's you find much less on gold. Uh when you work with gold, uh you have the price of the of the gold, but ultimately if you mess up the guilloship for some reason or you mess mess up one of the the finishing of of course you're gonna you're gonna not be refunded the the labor, but you can melt the gold and you can reuse it uh in some way. As we're wet stones, if it's broken, well yeah, there's nothing to do. All all of this experience made me less now not as Pierre from the business, but Pierre the Collector, it made me all all the more appreciative of some of the stone dial designs from from the past that you just think to yourself, well, back then, first of all it was harder to get the stone and secondly they didn't have the machine we had today. How how they how did they do it? If we can we can do it today, how did they do it back then? And I think this is one of the charming aspects of vintage watches in general. If you look at sizing, etc., and so things. Sometimes you ask yourself, how comes today we're not making this? And there's always explanations, but it's a good thing to be able to dream that way |
| Tony Traina | . You mentioned the failure rate. It's something I wanted to ask you about. Uh when I was talking to Sylvan Bernaron about the stone dials he made for his Mirage, he mentioned basically his supplier was having an 80% failure rate for the Tiger's Eye and the lapis lazuli. You mentioned as high as a one of every twenty-five being good, which would be more like a ninety-five percent failure rate, which I imagine would have to be at the high end. But can you give us any more insight into sort of an average failure rate you have on a stone dial compared to what it would be for a typical uh just a typical dial |
| Pierre Bevert | ? So uh uh honestly on a typical dial at the volumes we work with as a small brand, um the gold dial you you you basically have zero failure rate. Um I'm exaggerating of course and it's it's a terrible marketing I'm doing 'cause then everybody will be like, uh it's not true there is failure rates, but let's say that the failure the w the way you fail can in some way be corrected with less damage than with the stone. Because again, you look at the size of a doll, so uh imagine Sylvain's watch would have a smaller dial. If it cracks in two that that's uh half dial that's broken, what what can you make out of it? A maximum you can make a crown. You cannot make another dial. As where with gold uh or even with brass, it can you you can find things to do. Then you have uh the the something that we shouldn't not confuse with is the quality control. This means when we get gold dolls, we probably send back twenty to twenty-five percent of the dials because there's a hair or there's a scratch or there's something wrong here and there. But that's quality control. That doesn't mean that there was a failure during the process. With stone, it's pretty upfront. Either the stone is broken or it's not. Although we sometimes I have to say we you know with obsidian, which is quite an even surface, we've had to return dolls because they were micro chips inside. So this, for instance, is something we don't accept. But then again, it's also stone driven because you take Cur de Ruby. On Cur de Ruby, it's normal that the texture of the stone is not perfectly flat. On other stones you have to have a certain degree of uh of quality control but failure rate on gold can is is definitely less than on stones uh but i couldn't i i can't i'm not able at this moment to tell you exactly the percentage. And I think it' |
| Tony Traina | s also design-driven, obviously. One of the other things we've seen kind of begin to proliferate in a way across the market is well, stone dials in general, but even some more affordable stone dial options. I think Baltic most recently probably releasing their kind of boutique exclusive retegate, lapis lazuli, and a green malachite dial for let's say a thousand to fifteen hundred dollars in that range. Obviously, you guys are at a much higher end and the watches are completely different. So I don't mean to equate the two, but I'm just wondering if you could help clients or collectors understand the the different price points that we're seeing stone dials at now and how much of that cost, if any, is attributable to some of the uh processes and manufacturing techniques we've been talking about |
| Pierre Bevert | . Yeah. So again, it goes back to you know different um so if we take from the more basic like, if we strip down to the more most essential parts, it starts with the m raw material you're using. There are always categories. It's like diamonds. You can have you can use diamonds but very poor diamonds, and then you can use diamonds that are V V S2 etcetera. So first of all there's the difference between the raw material. Now I I don't know uh where uh these dials at Baltic for instance come from. So uh I I I I cannot uh position myself on that. I'm not seen them either and I'm no germologist so even if I had seen them wouldn't help much. Um but you have first of all the raw material um then you have the the region in the world where it's produced. We produce all our dolls in Switzerland. Um depending on where you produce it in the world, it might have a different cost. Then it depends what you put underneath. If you're putting a brass plate or if you're putting a gold plate, it depends if you have indices, it depends on the design, because the design will then uh give you the failure rate or let's say the complexity in the manufacturing. So if you accumulate uh raw material that is not necessarily very expensive, plus a region where uh labor is not very expensive or less than in Switzerland, with a design that is less complicated with less failure rates, you can end up with super different um uh price points and costs of a dollar. Ultimately I think that you have you have to see everything uh in terms of the the the the broader picture of how it's built because it's totally possible that one watch which is priced at uh seventy five thousand Swiss francs and a watch that is priced at two thousand Swiss francs share the same raw material that is lapid and it's the same lapid, but then you have many different layers of complicated complexification in terms of the way it's produced, what materials are used with it, the design. Um but I think it's actually a super cool thing to see that stone dials are now making their way into every segment of the market. And there's also something with high-end watchmaking which I can't stress enough, having seen it previously as working for Phillips as a collector as well. And then now working within the industry and producing modern watches is the complexity of each element. You know, we're talking, we had an episode now here where we speak we speak about just the stone dials and the complexity that goes into producing bug. But then we have the hands, the indices, the case, the movement. And within the movement, you have wheels, bridges, pins, pins, you have uh the escapement, like you have the bracelet, the buckle. So in fact I feel personally um that today often there is an idea to standardize the way we see watches their value and their price when in fact you can have a watch that has a lot of value put onto the dial and maybe not less attention but something that is less in detail or di or differently produced on all of the other components and the dials sort of blurs in then in the whole cost, which ends up with the whole price of the watch. So in regards to these dials like uh Baltic or Ferland Mary has done with the I think Time for Art, which is a stone dial. Um are it's it's it's you know amazing that they're doing that. I'm I I'm a big fan. And I think that it's just beautiful that we can get stone dials at all these different prices. And uh I think it doesn't diminish either their da what they're doing or what higher end brands are doing because ultimately um the the trick to the price point is not necessarily within the the material |
| Tony Traina | per se? Before I let you go, obviously you grew up around collecting, your dad was a collector and in in the business. You grew up as a collector, and now you're in the business of watches as well. Any sort of final words of wisdom for customers, clients, collectors as they look at acquiring stone dials, either vintage watches or modern watches that you might have particular insight into as someone who is a little bit behind the scenes in in procuring and manufacturing these types of watches to |
| Pierre Bevert | o. I'm I'm my answer is probably going to be disappoint disappointing to most. But something I feel for a lot in today's watch industry, I would say the post COVID watch industry, is sometimes I see some clients that don't necessarily like what they're buying. And I think we should come back to an era of buying watches that you love. It's not really important what brand you're buying from, what reference, what stone dial. As long as the watch speaks to you and you enjoy wearing it. I recently had a child and uh I was wearing actually the watch my brother was wearing the rose on rose automatic for a while. And uh I was gifted by my parents a watch uh for the birth of my daughter and a watch that I love and when I saw it you, know, I was it's it's something very cool. Uh but I thought to myself, oh but you know it's a shame, it won't get much risk time because I just like the other watch much, much more. And just because of the fact that it's engraved with my fa with my daughter's name, with the birth, with the fact that it comes from my parents. I've been loving it and wearing this watch exclusively for the past two months. And I think that these sort of experiences what make you fall in love with watches. Just having watches that you love that you want to wear that you enjoy and I think that's the most important um and then still to still you know answer a bit the question with some more uh let's say stone wisdom i would say with stones um you want to buy in my opinion the stones that are not that are a bit not typical um for instance, I love it, and you know, we probably have some project that will come out with that stone, but onyx for me is very nice, but it maybe lacks a bit of soul if you're wanting to buy a stone dial. If you want to buy a stone dial for me, try and go for opal, uh even mop depending on which color it is. You know, sodolite is something that I love as well. Bloodstone. And I think that we shouldn't if you if you're into the market to buy stone doll, there is no fixed budget. You it doesn't mean you have to buy high end or you know d different types of watches. Just buy the watch you like and wear it, enjoy it. And luckily we're striving as a industry as a whole to be able to propose to people that love watches, watches at all price and all designs, and this is an opportunity that we have today to be able to purchase the things that we like. If uh and with stone dials in particular, the great thing is that there it there exists in the world and out there on the market all types of stone dials. As at some period of time they were really R deco-esque, you're able to find easier, uh crazy shaped watches. If you think of the vintage Piaget, for instance, you can find crazy designer watches with stone dials. And at the same time you can find some Rolex which are more not common but very typical watch codes and this is really interesting. You cannot get that with everything and it's it's just pure fun if you're really diving de |
| Tony Traina | ep into that that field. I do think sometimes I I push back on the cliche of of buy what you love, as you mentioned there. But I think one of the things that's important to figure out what you love is diving deep and getting knowledge and learning more about if it is stone dials that you may love, for example. So with that, I think you've left it at a good place, Pierre, for us. Thanks for giving us a little bit of insight into the stone dial making process at Bever. And we'll have you on again soon, I'm sure, to talk a little bit more about what's to come from the brand. But in the meantime, thank you so much. Today's second guest is Jasper Leifring of Amsterdam Vintage Watches. Jasper took over his parents' watch shop in Amsterdam in 2014. Before that, he studied as a gemologist, which makes him perfect for talking to us about stone dials. You'll often see him and his colleagues selling rare vintage relics, paddock, and other stone dials, along with other beautiful watches. Jasper, thanks for joining Hodinki Radio. Well I'm very honored and uh great pronunciation on my last name. We'd be lying if we didn't try that before we hit record, but I appreciate it nonetheless. Jasper, before we get into the specifics of collecting vintage stone dials in particular, I think we need to start by defining our terms a little bit. So can you define for us what a stone dial is and what a stone dial is not |
| Jasper Leifring | ? Yeah, excellent. Excellent question. So stone dials do not include dials that are merely set with gemstones. The entire service needs to be a mineral. And then again, by extension note, all organic materials can be considered to meet the demands for this category. So the most well known and widely used, for example, which is mother of pearl, does not qualify in my breach. So same goes to What are some of your favorite brands in the vintage world that produce stone dials? Rolex is far from the only brand who use these natural products, but their prolific portfolio did turn out to be the most coveted. And I started collecting and investigating these specimens about a decade ago. So they are most dear to my heart, but relatively in terms of output, I think Piaget ranks way higher than Rolex in quantity. So if you look at the percentages and but that obviously integrated stone elves in many watches. I love the ellipsis with the Onyx styles or the Lap styles. We've had uh quite uh some of them. And other brands, I guess Cartier does a great job in providing stone elves. And more recently, you see it with uh with other brands that integrate, that jump on the band with wagon and |
| Tony Traina | want to show some stone dials too. From your perspective as a dealer collector gemologist, can you talk a little bit about the typical manufacturing process we see on these vintage stone dials and how they're put together |
| Jasper Leifring | ? Yeah, so if I approach it from Rolic standpoint, they started uh making these stone dials as early as the late sixties. And the production turned out to be quite challenging as the minerals could easily break during the process. And this happened mainly when cutting out the date window. And possibly that's the reason why the date date had to wait for another decade for it to be presented with any option uh regarding stone dials. That's at least what I think about it. Because they would have to carve out another window, right? So it firstly was exclusively available for precious metal datas. And these apertures were created by using a mix of diamond powder and water, and it has to be drilled out by ultrasonic frequency, which is quite progressive for the time because this is more than 50 years ago. So that's quite challenging. Um, but again, the fragility is where it's it's at. That's that's very important. And to mitigate this fragility, the slab of stone is only about half a millimeter thick. It's mounted by glue on a chrysophole base plate, and that is a copper alloy. It contains zinc and lat. It's slightly larger in diameter, so it can fit under the case uh rehout and therefore also functions as protection against impact. Oh, one more thing, another thing I forgot. Um many people like the cleanless of uh the cleanness of these tiles without the markers, and now it oftentimes is aesthetically preferred. But back in the days it was simply a practical decision for all it's not a feature indices. Because this again would be pre presented the challenge of not breaking it when trading holes for the setting. So until nineteen seventy eight, during the Plexicrystal Dages time, there were no marks on the dial and I really liked the looks of it, but simply it was because Rolex was too lazy or uh risk averse to uh make these markers |
| Tony Traina | . Okay, before we talk about specific stone dials, I want to talk a little bit about condition and evaluating condition of these stone dials. So can you just talk generally about some of the concerns or things that you'll evaluate with stone dials that might not be a concern or even come up with a a standard dial |
| Jasper Leifring | . Yeah. So well needless to say condition is of the utmost importance. Uh this isn't necessarily anything different when collecting other watches, but with some stone dials you would have to be particularly mindful if there are no hairlines or even worse and cracks. That is uh a real pity. And depending on the properties of the stone, you're more likely to encounter or develop damages. For example, with Malachi dials, I've I've handled many, and out of 80 or 90% of the watches that I have been offered, they had hairlines or cracks And this mostly happens well initially when watchmakers mount or demount. Is that a word? Demount. Watchmakers mount or demount the watch. Um so once there are hairlines, it remains a vulnerability and it can get increasingly bad over time. So decreasing the value and collectability would be a result of any type of damage, like a hairline or a crack. And that is somewhat debatable, but therefore I approach it rather binary. So it has either no internal fractures or it has, regardless of the extent. And I would also suggest to take it seriously into consideration when pricing it or let it be a decisive factor to buy it at all. Uh that is at least my experience. I'd rather stay away from those because it can get worse over time |
| Tony Traina | . Maybe we can talk a little bit about it in terms of collectibility and value perhaps as well. Take a standard, maybe let's just take a standard stone. Onyx styles are relatively common, right? Uh a pristine onyx style with no hairlines, no cracks in a let's say a four-digit date just how much would that go for versus one that might have uh a hairline or a more noticeable crack? Like how much does the value discrepancy change based on condition |
| Jasper Leifring | ? So with an Onyx, I would stay away from it by default if it has a crack because they're not so rare at all. So I would rather go for one that doesn't have a crack. But it I mean malachite, it is kind of accepted that there are some hairlines there. But for example, I saw the malachite without any cracks. It was really perfect. It's one of the very few perfect malachites I've ever seen. I saw it for 80,000 euros whilst a crack in a day date, 1803. Whilst the crack malachite might reach half. I wouldn't buy it for fifty 40K, but I mean the market will say probably it's worth half |
| Tony Traina | . Yeah, I understand what you're saying. Another common concern is let's say swapping dials or dials that were not born in in a case. Can you talk a little bit about number one, how common that is? And then the just very basic uh threshold keys into I that you can look at when identifying whether a stone dial was born in a particular c |
| Jasper Leifring | ase Yeah. So um white metal day just or day dates are rarer and more valuable than the yellow gold counterparts. But you cannot just simply convert a stone dial for a yellow gold Rolex to a white gold or platinum one. Even if you were to take the risk by replacing the yellow coronet and verters for white ones, if you can find the white perters, uh the printing on that dial usually matches the color of the metal. And there are exceptions and those have to be approached carefully like for example um the the coral dial which has black printing it can have gold printing by the way loop this sort one with gold printing but usually it has black printing and with the black printing uh in theory you could replace these apertures, so the date and the date aperture and the coronet, and then you convert it to a whiteboard one and you mount it in an eighteen oh three nine or eighteen8026, for example, and you would have successfully added uh multiple tens of thousands of pros. So it is very important to be mindful there. Uh, but when the color of the printing usually as it usually does matches the material. You can't just swap it out. And in period correctness, there are many periods, so you also have to be mindful regarding the period, but it isn't that straight of math with ProLEX that from nineteen seventy eight to nineteen eighty four they used T Swiss T dials and then from eighty four to ninety two they used Swiss only dials for the simple fact that these dials were option uh options. So obvious obviously they were sometimes later ordered or they were lingering at the dealer display like uh just in stock and they later mounted them so there isn't specific math but there can be i mean swiss tiles that we uh Swiss made dials that we start to see in the mid nineties to late nineties and with the service dials, if they're mounted in a nineteen seventy eight case you can deem it not period correct. Doesn't mean the watch is not original, but it is something to uh to be mindful of |
| Tony Traina | one thing when we were talking to Pierre Bevert about manufacturing modern stone dials one of the things he marveled at is the way in which brands like Rolex, Piaget, and others that were making these types of dials 40, 50 years ago, sometimes even longer, were able to do that without the modern manufacturing techniques that that we have today, knowing how difficult they are still finding it to produce these types of dials. Can you talk a little bit more about uh just about that and the general appeal of stone dials for for you? |
| Jasper Leifring | That's an interesting question because what I what attracts me very much about stone dials that if I were to say most people um would say that I'm misusing the term unique if I say these watches are unique, but they're actually unique by default. So the dials are made by the help of Mother Nature and therefore all having slightly different structures and patterns. So how cool is that? And that is what's something something that really attracts me about it, ex uh apart from the artisanal part of uh of things, because it's also very spectacular that Rolex were the dialogue makers by extent. For example, Stern Freyer, uh Helmut Krot in his book Le Cadran, really uh lays it out perfectly. How these companies were able to make these very spectacular watches and it really goes to show you even if you were to buy a uh Rolex which back then also were mass produced you can still find a unique specimen and that was crafted with uh true craftship and with the help of Mother Nature, I just find that a very interesting uh uh let's say ni |
| Tony Traina | che in the world of watches. We've been talking about Rolex and vintage Rolex watches, date just and day dates, you'll see stone dials. I wanted to talk a little bit specifically about some of the types of stone dials you'll see. And maybe we could start with as a dealer, as a collector, what are some of the most common stone dial types you see |
| Jasper Leifring | ? Yeah, so for sure the most common ones, not only in Rolex catalog, but I mean across the board would definitely be Onyx and Lapis. Uh onyx is very popular, even though the supply is quite huge. But it's just so jet black. It it it really speaks to a lot of people, including me. And many people that are coming from the more contemporary part of watch collecting are now drawn to vintage because of these onic styles. A lot of my clients started out with an onyx style that were usually into uh like uh submariners from 2015 or you know the hill or the caramel and they're now falling in love with these onyx styles and lapis, of course, is the blue color, just speaks, it's very vibrant, it's it's very uh particular and attractive. Um, and apart from that, I would say tiger eye, you see, tiger eye quite a quite a lot, which also is reflected in the price. So Tiger Eye is the cheapest one, even though it's more rare than Onyx, the second one is Onyx, and the third one would be Lapis for rarity. |
| Tony Traina | You mentioned Onyx is usually kind of a standard jet black, but Tiger's Eye, and then especially Lapis Lazuli, you'll see a little bit more variety in the in the actual aesthetic, how they look. From your perspective, what maybe it is just an aesthetic question as to what makes for a good-looking lapis versus not so good looking. Is it totally subjective? Or from your perspective, what do you look for in like, oh, that's a good lapis dial versus I don't like that one as much |
| Jasper Leifring | . That's a great question. Well, of course, the chitoyans of of tiger eye is uh is differs from each. So every if you if you have twelve different tiger eyes next to each other, they're all different, and you don't have that uh um with on exile and the châteaux is just the way the light plays with it so uh that is very personal regarding lapis lapis is often subject to uh a lot of inclusions, uh porite and hematite. Uh sorry, parite and calcite. Parite is um yellow and calcite is white. Uh what I like most is a very vibrant blue color with very few inclusions, either that or a lot of inclusions, and spread around the dial uh like crazy. Uh what bugs me a little bit is if you have a pretty bright and and uh clean lap style and then just very few inclusions at very uh specific places. Then I don't know my OCD can't really handle that. But again, that's kind of subjective. But I see the watches we have that sell the best are the watches that portray either like a milky way and a whole array of inclusions or as little as possible regarding lapis. And same goes to say, for example, uh with Bloodstone, which is a variety of a green jasper that has red hematite inclusions. Of course, the contrasting colors of red, deep red, and green is very attractive. So on a bloodstone, I would very much like a lot of inclusions. Um so it kinda depends and it's pretty personal, but that is my take on |
| Tony Traina | it. On the other side, what are some of the rarest types of stone dives you'll see? Maybe specific to Rolex, or maybe it can be applied more broadly as well. Yeah |
| Jasper Leifring | , so that's a great question. Um it kinda depends. So I'm inclined to say opal, uh but to to take it more broadly, I would say the most interesting to collect would be uh the period until 1978, because then they reserved it only for the precious metal day dates. Uh they just sorry, um, and I find that just very interesting that this let's say I prefer the ones without markers as a whole, and until 1978, they didn't use any markers. And uh, with one exception, by the way, afterwards, uh, there's one dial I very much like with markers, and that's the pyramid stone dial. So there's a pyramid finishing on it. Uh, it comes in onyx, coral, and lapis lazuli. Those are exceptionally rare, and these are very cool. So I would say those three are the rarest. But other than that, I would suggest looking into the four digit error. So the digits ones without markers. Of course I like Jasper. And so I'm wearing a Jasper right now in a white gold case. So the white gold ones are uh most rare. This is a red Jasper variety, which is an opaque variety of uh Chalcedoni, and this is a watch that uh really speaks to me. Um, but that is rare. Bloodstone is quite rare. Malachite and uh coral is rare, coral fetches the highest prices, um, apart from supposedly the rarest one, which is a uh coral, um, which is an opal one, but that one is unfortunately not yet, at least if it exists, not yet uh uncovered because the one that have been selling on auction is unfortunately fake |
| Tony Traina | . We're gonna get to that one in a second, but I wanted to ask just a little bit more about why you mentioned the pre-1978 watches, dates and dates as your favorite in the world of Rolex in particular. Is this just because aesthetically you get more of the stone, it's a cleaner look, and then you start to get these diamond markers on later ones that, if I may say, in my opinion, start to look a little bit gaudy and a little bit flashier. And in the pre-1978 days, you can actually get stone dials that are are relatively subdued. Is that kind of how you feel about it as |
| Jasper Leifring | well. Yeah, very well put. That is from the aesthetic point of view, but also from the practical point of view back then in this time period, Rolex used for the days regularly pipe and dials, which means the dial is also mounted on the movement like a cap. However, on stone dials, obviously this couldn't be the case. So even for these 36mm stone dials, they use dial feet already, which was an anomaly for daydreams dials. So it's an entire different dial construction as opposed to the later Varian. So for the five digit ones that have basically the same construction, the same base plate with dial feet. They're not interchangeable, by the way. So it's a different caliber, so you cannot put a four-itdig they just stone dial in a five-digit one. But already for this uh very specific type of dial, Rolex uh constructed an entire different um dial plate and the back of the dial is totally different. So that is also something that that that I'm drawn to that Rolex put in this effort to uh yeah in the early phases |
| Tony Traina | to to check this out. You mentioned there the potential of fake stone dials. And this is something I wanted to ask you about because I think especially if as they've gotten more popular, uh something I've heard is to tread with caution if you're going to go into the world of collecting stone dials because of the existence of a lot of fakes and many of them are are quite good. So from your perspective in the market, can you talk a little bit about what you see in terms of how good these fakes are and then also just the volume of them on the market |
| Jasper Leifring | . Yeah. Yeah. Well, they used to be very easy to to determine up until uh let's say 2020 approximately. Uh the level was really poor. And some were also marketed on Corona 24 even now as a aftermarket dial, uh, but they are also put into what watches and sold as real dials. Uh, but still the lion's share of today's fakes are discernible by quick glance or a mediocre picture, and mainly by looking at the surface and color, because oftentimes it's now the stone or it simulates the stone but it's actually made of paste. Uh but you can also see it by the font the the layout and oftentimes on these fakes you see these terribly apert terrible apertures. They're just very poorly made. Uh no craftsmanship there. But it has to be said that more recently some very good ones have come to my attention. And uh we ourselves were even approached by an Italian workshop who offered their service in making these and I have to say I was very impressed. So they made it from real stones with similar production methods. And I do not like to get into the specifics for obvious reasons because people like this are also watching. So if I would point out how to see it, they would also adjust that. Um but it still remains very hard to master the exact printing for them. Uh so of course it's used by bad printing like transfer printing to get the cliche exactly right to, get the technique right, with the right paint mixture. Uh that is that is still something you can determine uh especially under a microscope, especially if you have the watch in your hand, it can be harder if you see it on the picture. And sometimes the deck of the dial can also provide interesting information |
| Tony Traina | . Something I wanted to end on is I think we're still learning a lot about stone dials in some in some ways. Uh, with our last guest, I'm going to talk about sort of the difference between Onyx previously called obsidian dials, which I know you played a part in sort of learning a little bit more about and bringing to the light of the market. But are there other areas in the world of stone dials that you and other collectors or the market more broadly are still learning about? Or are there other areas of of sort of open questions that people could uh if people were so willing could sort of do in-depth studies, forensic level studies on to help us understand more about stone dials in the world of Rolex or whatever other brands |
| Jasper Leifring | ? Yeah, that's a great question. And uh indeed I'll start off by uh the obsidian discussion you will uh talk about too which I too was an early adapter of using that name so I'm not finished learning myself just yet uh but there are many misconceptions about stone dials and their naming like the marble dial that is actually how light um but however as weird as this sounds sometimes multiple names are correct and it can be somewhat subjective. So I mentioned it before, but um this isn't the case by the way for the marble or obsidian that's just falsely named. But for example, a blockstone is a green jasper with hematide inclusions, which is also referred to as a heliotrope. So jasper is an opaque variety of the calci-calcedony group. So depending on varying properties, one could name a bloodstone dial, a heliotrope, a jasper, or a calcedony, and all of them could be correct. Um however, not all calcedonies can be typified as Jasper, but you see there's quite some leeway there and quite some discussion which also makes it interesting. Um but I think from that point of view uh there's always a debate in to still there's a there's this dial code chart that Rolex put out um I think I was included in a video of mine in uh on YouTube where you can see numerous options uh they use for the DAS, but it doesn't specifically say they're available to day just or day date. So that also leaves the question, for example, if they ever made an Opal dial, because Opal has been listed in the dialpo chart, but they could have made it for the Cellini models because they didn't only make it for day just and day date, they even made it for Submariners. I mean there's a Onyx dial and a lapis dial for 1668s. So I think it is still a territory that many uh things have to be discovered. Uh and since there's no information obviously coming from Rolex, yeah, it is very exciting to uh hunt hunt it down myself |
| Tony Traina | . With that, as we sort of tip over into the naming conventions of stone dials, we've surely tipped into the world of nerdery that uh is best left for another day. But Jasper, thank you so much for giving us more information on stone dials. It's been a great discussion, I think, uh, in terms of collecting them and and other things to be aware of as people look at at buying, potentially collecting stone dials. So I appreciate it. If you have any more questions, of course, find Jasper on Instagram or Amsterdam Vintage Watches. He's he's always willing to talk and inform you. So thank you so much for joining Hoodin Geek Radio and we'll talk to you soon. Our final guest today is Eric Gustafson, founder of Hairspring Watches. Eric has built a dedicated following who devour his curated daily posts about collectible watches, some of which he sells as a dealer. He also hosts what I might say is the second best watch podcast, which I recommend listening to right after this one. Eric recently wrote an in-depth piece about a discovery that he and a few others, including Jasper, our previous guest, made about so-called obsidian Rolex styles. To me, it represents the best of modern watch scholarship, but also how much we can still learn about vintage watches. With that, Eric, thanks for joining the |
| Eric Gustafson | show. It's a real pleasure to be here, Tony. Thank you for having me on. Although I maintain if we are second best, it's only for your magnetic sex appe |
| Tony Traina | al. Oh, that's right. Off to a roaring start here, Eric. I introduced you there, but for those who don't know you, why don't you give a little bit more complete of an introduction to you and Hairspring |
| Eric Gustafson | . Sure, happy to. We do two types of content. Um, we call them finds and exclusives. Hairspring aims to be the best of the market all in one place for enthusiasts to kind of come together around watches that are being sold. Uh finds are features of watches that are out in the market, um, from friends, retailers, auction houses, et cetera. Exclusives are watches that we are selling in-house, as it were. Um, we handle the photography shipping insurance, often consigned from our audience of rather serious collectors. For both, we aim to kind of tell the story of the watch in a few paragraphs, uh in a kind of quick, easy to digest way. It's both friendly to those who are first learning of the model, but also hopefully still deep enough for someone who is a serious to come away with something new as well. So in a few words, uh, it's really a place to check in with the sickest watches that have come to market recently |
| Tony Traina | . As I've alluded to, one of those recent stories or discoveries that you had was about so-called obsidian dials, which are not in fact uh as as they were previously believed to be. But before we get to the talking about that a little bit more, I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit as a dealer who I'm sure is observing the market on a day-to-day basis, what we've seen in the development of the stone dial market and interest in stone dials over the past few years in particular |
| Eric Gustafson | ? Yeah, um it's been a wild one to watch. I think stone dials really kind of came online as their own segment. It felt like to me, at least in the 2015 or 2016 Phillips Daydate sale, whenever that was a while back, there were a few high-profile stone dials uh that kind of made a big splash there. And since then, I think we've seen a slower, steadier burn than most hype markets, which leads me to believe that there is a bit of actual substance going on here too. It feels a little bit separate to most of the hype cycles we've seen, which is interesting. Um, I think we've seen broadly a kind of large slow build since 2015, particularly through the COVID years until today, where there have been a few signs of cooling, but the really serious collector stone dials are as desirable now as they really have ever been. Um so it's a market that's relatively new, even in vintage Rolex terms. Um so kind of one to watch in my mind |
| Tony Traina | . Yeah, I'm pulling up our article, I should say it was Ben's article, about the glamorous day date sale from 2015. And the parenthetical on the title was that time the average day date sold for a hundred and ten thousand dollars. So yes, certainly a a momentous occasion for for all involved and hard to believe that that was already nine years ago at this point, huh |
| Eric Gustafson | ? Yeah. That was it really was a bit of a first though because I can't remember in my head a sale of that magnitude for a a relatively normal stone dial prior to that. I don't know if you can, but certainly I think that's the first time I remember cataloging them as kind of like I don't know, uh Paul Newman Day data |
| Tony Traina | of sorts or something like this. That's right. Okay. So with our previous guests, we've talked a little bit about the production process of stone dials. So listeners at this point will probably understand that these are dials with hard stones that are adhered to a metal base plate. So we're going to start talking about the so-called obsidian or onyx dials that I've been referencing now. So maybe if you can just describe aesthetically what these dials looked like in these vintage date just and were they only in date |
| Eric Gustafson | just or were they in day dates as well? Well, this is a part of it. Um so they they look different in day just and daydates. And I'm sure we'll get into that, but I mean not to give the game away, but they look like up onic styles. Um so if you s if you study these things closely, um you will see that uh obsidian is nowhere in the vintage Rolex Stone catalog, except for in day dates. And this is where it gets kind of interesting. Um because the obsidian that you see in day dates is a totally different look to what was being called obsidian in date just. Um these are kind of a separate thing, these dials, and I don't still really know what to call them exactly. Um, but th there's been uh a lot of interesting scholarship, I think, in the last two to three years that was kind of whispered quietly amongst dealers. Uh, and then it it just took a couple few key points, I think, to really kind of put together that finds post that we did. Um, where I'm not trying to be definitive, I I don't have all the answers, but certainly some hypotheses seem more supportable than others now, at least to me |
| Tony Traina | . So let's just talk a little bit about specifically what we're talking about here. We called these obsidian dials for a long time, but uh I think you probably first posted about them maybe a year ago, and then that's when you first decided started to discover that perhaps they weren't actually obsidian and that they were uh something else entirely |
| Eric Gustafson | . Sure. Uh I think well actually a little bit earlier than that. The first example that I can remember seeing was sent to me privately. And I actually before this podcast look back, it was twenty eighteen. It was an Instagram DM. A friend of mine just saying, hey, do you know what this is? I said, I have no clue, man. Uh and honestly, I think more people should be open to saying, I have no clue when they don't know. Um, that's always my preference. But the first sale recorded of one was at Phillips in 2020, at least that I can find. Um and that was the first time I think it was called Obsidian. Uh and now we've we saw that name uh proliferated in in sales of these dials that have this very specific look since. Um I had suspicions in 2020 when I saw that first example, but I didn't have evidence. I just this didn't look like a Rolex stone dial I'd ever seen before it looked like something new. And if something is both vintage and new to you, your flag should be up, right? So I I started kind of in the back of my mind thinking, well, what the hell could this be? Um and so there was an example that came up at MENTA that we had in fines, but I did not have all the evidence together. Um so that was an example that we presented, but kind of said, hey, not not really knowing exactly what this thing is. And there have been a lot of theories since then. What's really interesting about this is I before this, so the example that we're talking about now, this most recent finds post, was where I put together all of the conversations that I'd had with people in sort of a longer format article than we normally do to give this thing its full story. And I'd um I'd spoken with both Eric Coo and a few other people who are experts in jewelry. And I learned a few things during these. First of all, that Onyx is not actually uh like it looks in Rolex stone dials of nature, which I'm sure you've probably covered by this point you've been speaking to other people. The stone is dyed. And so what's interesting about that is it's dyed, it's varnished, and it's bonded to this metal base plate. And between quite a few of the on its examples that we saw appearing in the market, there was a small circular ring of discoloration right around the hand stack, which if this is a naturally occurring stone, doesn't really make sense to have that same formation in a place as it relates to the way uh a watch is constructed, right? It just it doesn't really make sense. So it has to be something happening related to the way the dial is constructed. Um so I spoke with Eric Koo, and this was really where things got interesting for me on two fronts. One, he had an Onyx Kanjar come through loop this. Um or sorry, I should say an obsidian Kanjar come through loop this, although he never actually called his obsidian. He's a smart guy. But the Kanjar stamp is one that is very, very hard to get right, even for people who try and fake vintage Paul Newman's and all these dials. You know, there are factories in Vietnam and Italy doing black magic, and none of them have yet gotten the Kanjar exactly right, which is great. Um, but he had an example that had gone um from Rolex to the royal family to him directly, very well documented. And this had this obsidian look, and all of the text was completely correct. And just on the quality of the Rolex text under magnification, these dials seem to have come from Rolex. I don't think anyone who's really studied them closely thinks they're outright Fugazi. Maybe a few people do, you know, and certainly open to hearing different opinions. Um, but that example seemed about as concrete as any stone dial could be. And so that is a vote in favor of these having come from Rolex, but they don't look like obsidian. So then the question becomes what are they? And when you put that together with the fact that these have kind of looked like they denaminated around the base, a lot of people started to think that this was patina that was forming. But really, the kind of the nail in the coffin um came in studying vintage Patek Philippe because Patek do extracts. And um a few different Patek Philippe examples had shown up that had dials that looked very similar to what we saw in these quote obsidian day just, and they were labeled as onyx on the extract. And so that was really kind of the turning point. And I tried to present this in that post that I think the most likely hypothesis on the bounce of evidence seems to be that these are a form of onyx style that have undergone some form of process that have made them patina in ways that other onyx styles didn't, whether that be heat, UV, moisture, whatever it is. And it's quite interesting that they're so rare today, because you would expect if if this was a common thing, like tropical dials were in the 60s, that you would see more of them. And we really don't. Um, and so the question is, were these just thrown away? Because obviously stone dials went through a period of not being valuable. And I can imagine if you were a dealer in the nineties trying to optimize, um, you just throw it out and get a good looking onic style because these really weren't valuable things back then. Or were these dials that were maybe all stored together in some very op part of the world and then all cased, you know, ten years ago? I don't think we really know the answer. Um, so there are a lot of question marks still, but I think we're getting closer to the truth that this is some form of onyx patina, whether it be an interaction between the varnish and the dye, uh a D lamination at the base, whatever it might be. I I think it's pretty concrete at this point that we're looking at some kind of quote tropical onyx |
| Tony Traina | . It's interesting and it illustrates how we can still be learning about vintage watches, about how they were made, about how they age, uh, as we learn more about them, as we collect new examples and all of those types of things. Uh you mentioned something there. You said that they're nowadays quite rare because perhaps they were thrown out, and it's been maybe a couple of months since you first started posting more publicly about uh the various theories about these obsidian dials, uh so-called obsidian dials, I should say. Anything else you've kind of learned in the ensuing months that didn't go into that post in terms of uh other examples that have popped up or just anything else you've learned from from dealers or or colleagues of yours |
| Eric Gustafson | ? Sure. I think the funniest thing for me is I have seen people now calling them Tropical Onyx two listing. So that just makes me chuckle. Uh but honestly, I mean it's preferable in my mind to a mislabeling of the actual physical material involved. Right. Um no, to be frank, like that has been the largest kind of data dump of evidence. Um, I I've seen people kind of saying, yeah, I thought this all along, which awesome. Uh, and then I I have seen uh a few people get ornery that know these absolutely are obsidian. And as you would expect, something this controversial with these huge sums of money involved, people have very strong opinions, one way or the other. But I will say, to their credit, uh quite a few of the uh more uh well-regarded retailers in in our space, uh including the people you just interviewed, um, have changed their mind almost immediately on the balance of evidence available, which I think is only to their strength as a retailer in this world. I I said this quote on um our podcast, the first best watch podcast, in fact. Um but the I uh Mark Andreessen is uh a fascinating guy and he has this quote of um strong views loosely held, meaning always have really strong informed opinions, but be willing to change your mind immediately on the balance of evidence. And the fact that both um Amsterdam Vidija, Tariq, who runs Momentum in Dubai, who had the actual example that we featured, both um immediately kind of revisited their opinions and corrected their listings and reached out to people and and um kind of corrected what they had said prior, which to my mind just makes me respect them far more as people and as retailers. |
| Tony Traina | I will say on its face, uh we just talked to Pierre Bevert and they do an obsidian dial, a modern obsidian dial. And if you just look at the stones that they're using, it looks nothing like the previously called obsidian dials to your point, nor does it look like the later obsidian dials that you'll you would find in a uh in a well now vintage Rolex, but in some of these later Rolex's. So uh that in itself is is is some evidence in in addition to everything else we've been talking |
| Eric Gustafson | about. Yeah. Um and it is interesting if you look at the day dates that were produced after that are actually labeled as obsidian in the Rolex catalog, just looks nothing like what we're seeing in these days just. So I think regardless of how you feel about how these dials actually came to be, I think we can pretty much all agree at this point that the obsidian name is kind of bunk. Yep. R |
| Tony Traina | ight. It it raises a more broad point learning about Onyx and Obsidian and these imperfections, I think you can almost call them that develop years on down the road in vintage watches generally, vintage Rolex, anything else? You say now it's basically damaged onyx is what this is. Patinate Onyx, if you're a marketer, I suppose. Uh are there any other flaws in the world of vintage Rolex, stone dials or otherwise, or maybe just vintage watches that uh you find particularly enjoyable or worth celebrating. I mean, for me, it's part of the, it can be part of the charm or appeal of these, of these vintage watches. It's subjective at the end of the day, which ones you like versus which ones you hate. I think there's probably strong views on either side as to whether these damaged Onyx dials are are attractive or not, but any other sort of damaged watches in your view that that you really enjo |
| Eric Gustafson | y? Definitely. Uh quite a few. And it is it is a line and everyone has this different gray area where they accept it's either damage or it's patina and every journalist likes to muse about it, including myself. Actually I shouldn't say that. You are the journalist to muse about, but I just talk about them. Um, not a journalist. But yeah, there are ton. I mean, one that stands out immediately uh are star wheels. And so there are these um dials on Star Wheels that we think were originally blue that can tropicalize or patina into this like bright purple or almost burgundy tone. And that is a process that is still not yet well understood. I don't think anyone entirely understands what AP actually sold and what is actually patina, as far as those go. Um more recently, uh the 116520, uh so the first Rolex movement Daytona, uh early ones of those have uh dials that can take on a cream or lemon tone. And people still disagree violently w,hether that's caused by UV exposure or a lack of UV exposure. I don't think anyone really exactly knows how these patinas formats over determined. I mean to keep it in stone dials, it's still a mystery to me why red Jasper seems to have only ever been made for day justs, where most stones are shared between day date and date just. And then coral dials, for example, used black for the print, where almost no other stone dial used black. It was either silver or gold. So a lot of question marks there. Some of the rarer stones like Opal or Agate or Agate, there's just so few examples out there that no one seems to really have much information about them, which again, just, you know, it raises red flags, right? So I'm sure there's going to be a lot more learned about these. I feel like we we are in terms of like stone dial collecting very roughly where people were in Paul Newman dials in the late nineties. Quite a lot of information is out there, but it has yet to really be aggregated and put together in ways where there's a concrete understanding of what's great and what was Fugaz |
| Tony Traina | i. It's funny, you mentioned the red Jasper dials, the blackprint specific to coral dials, both things that Jasper just mentioned in our previous discussion. So uh it's great that people are circling around some of the same things that are just curiosities, if nothing more. For you as a as a dealer, a researcher, someone who put a lot of thought into this onyx obsidian dichotomy, are there any other areas that you're currently like really deep in in the stone dial world that others that are looking to write an in-depth article or help the market learn more about this space might might want to dig deep on |
| Eric Gustafson | ? If you're looking to learn more about this space, I think the the largest thing that we are facing right now is the proliferation of really quite adept fake dials. And I think people just need to increasingly be scared and and be aware of the red flags. Uh in my mind, uh someone selling a stone dial should have it out of the case and and have really examined the front and the back of the dial. Um but I mean I I want to start on a word of caution. Um I'm very excited about stone dials, but I'm still a little bit terrified of them personally. We've sold a few always after intense research. But for me, um there are there are ones which are kind of more safe and understood than others. So if you're talking about a lapis or an onyx style, these are these are well understood quantities. Um if you're getting into some of the more exotic bloodstones or um maybe like I just said an opal or s or something like this. If you can only find a few examples of sales out there, it may very well be just a very rare stone dial. Certainly very rare stone dials do exist, but you should have commensurate scholarship backing up your foundation of wanting to buy this dial before you go in and get really excited about it. I think the number one thing standing in the way of of stone dials becoming an extremely collectible market instead of just something with some stu substance behind it is a good understanding of where the good and bad pla |
| Tony Traina | yers are in the market. You mentioned there some of the red flags and just the proliferation of fakes throughout the market, which will happen anytime money, especially a large uh delta between like a regular dial and a stone dial begins to sort of uh take take hold in the market. I'm curious if there are any red flags, without giving away all of the tricks of the trade, uh that I'm sure you have any red flags that uh a common collector like like me or many of our listeners might be able to to look for that that would just be an immediately um an immediate red flag for for analyzing a stone dial |
| Eric Gustafson | ogue sure and i am in several group chats about this specific thread. I think the thing that is still the hardest to pick is the quality of the print, the layering of the print and the ink that is used. Um I mean people are adding patina to the backs of dials now to make them look like they were made in the sixties. Usually if you're studying the very edge of the dial and the way it's bonded, that's another tell that is also very hard to replicate the way that ages. Um obviously giving too many things away just makes it easier for people to fake these. So I'm I'm happier to chat about these things amongst trusted parties. Um, but in terms of things for people to look out for, uh, I will say coral dials are particularly tricky because black text infers that you can have either white gold or yellow gold surrounds, which are easily swapped out. And that's um, I think that's almost certainly happening. Uh in my mind, the greater risk is in outright forgery of a dial. Um, so I would say it's just really tr |
| Tony Traina | ust who you're interacting with. The last question I want to leave you with, just as a a dealer and a collector of these types of things, what is it about stone dials that has been a particular um why is it so attractive to you as compared to any other type of dial |
| Eric Gustafson | ogue I mean it's a naturally beautiful material which is cool but it it only goes so far for me. I think what's really interesting about it is Rolex respected this material so much to not put indices on the actual material in many instances. And what does that say? I mean, Rolex, if nothing else, throughout, at least back then, maybe they're more of a luxury goods manufactured today, but way back then, it they made tools for professionals. And the day date was, I think of it as kind of the instrument of the powerful. And the fact that they put this material inside of a raw inside of a watch and put no indices on the dial speaks to how much beauty they found in the inherent material. The manufacturing process is also really interesting to me because it hadn't really been done much before Rolex. Um and there's this there's this kind of lore that goes around with these dials that two in every ten survived production. Uh, and that Rolex would launch ten of these into production and only two of them would make it. And I always kind of assumed that this was marketing BS uh similar to Obsidian for a very long time. And then we had Sylvain Berner on on the show. And he he is's talking about the stone dial production for his 34s. And he's having to kind of hollow out the petite seconds area of his dials. And he's finding the exact same thing that as soon as you get below a certain thickness in these dials, they just And so there's an inherent fragility to this material that has to be preserved and respected. And I think the fact that many of these dials have made it through in remarkable condition uh is a is kind of testament to how much people respected them and and still respect them today. I to answer your original question, I just think it's a beautiful material and it's kind of a quirk of history, how much Rolex respected them at the time. I I I could be wrong on this, but I can't think of a single Rolex to not have indices prior to stone di |
| Tony Traina | als i think that's as good a place as any to leave our episode on stone dials so i'd like to again thank our guests pierre bevert yasper life ring and eric gustafson here. Let me know what you think of this episode too. It's the first time I've I or we at Hodinki have tried something like this, kind of an in-depth episode on one particular topic, dive diving deep into all aspects of it. Let me know if you liked it. If not, and if so, do let us know what might make a good future topic for an episode like this. Thank you all again for listening. Thanks to Vic Automanelli, our editor, and we'll see you again next week for another episode of Hodinky Radio. |