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Philippe Dufour (Watchmaking Legend)

Published on Fri, 7 Sep 2018 10:00:00 +0000

In this bonus episode, we sit down with one of watchmaking's true modern titans: Philippe Dufour. The master of modern horology talks about the erosion of craft, the future of fine watchmaking, and a couple islands of honesty in modern watchmaking that might surprise you.

Synopsis

In this bonus episode of the Hodinkee podcast, editor-in-chief Jack Forster travels to the Valley de Joux in Switzerland to interview legendary independent watchmaker Philippe Dufour at his workshop. Dufour, widely considered one of the greatest living watchmakers, discusses his philosophy on fine watchmaking, emphasizing the importance of putting "the human back inside the watch" and being transparent about craftsmanship rather than relying on marketing mystique. He shares concerns about declining quality standards in the Swiss watch industry, noting that many luxury brands have reduced their finishing criteria to what's visible at 30 centimeters with the naked eye, while ironically giving customers loupes to examine their watches closely.

The conversation explores Dufour's experience serving on the jury of the Grand Prix d'Horlogerie de Genève, his teaching work in Japan, and his collaboration with Grand Seiko. He discusses the loss of traditional watchmaking knowledge, particularly in areas like case construction for repeater watches, and criticizes the industry's separation of technical and commercial departments. Dufour advocates for brands like Rolex and Nomos, which he believes offer honest value without false pretenses. He also reveals plans to potentially pass on his knowledge to his stepdaughter, who is currently studying watchmaking, and expresses his dream project: creating a pocket watch tourbillon inspired by designs from the 1920s and 1930s, staying true to the complication's original purpose.

Transcript

Speaker
Unknown On va reprendre un prêt. Voilà Dufo. Oui, bonjour. Non, je suis en interview maintenant.
Unknown Merci au revoir. Alright, it's bonus episode time. I'm your host Stephen Polverant and this is Hodin So, just last week, a few members of Team Hodinky found themselves driving along the winding scenic roads of the Valley de Jou. This is real watchmaking country and it has been for centuries. When you think of someone toiling away in front of a window, looking out of a rolling green hills with their loop over their eye and a mechanical marvel in front of them, you're thinking of this place. And more specifically, you're probably thinking of someone like master watchmaker Philippe Dufour. Dufour is definitely in contention for the title of greatest living watchmaker, and he creates nearly every component of his watches himself, all under the roof of a single workshop. Our editor-in-chief Jack Forester had the rare opportunity to sit down with Philippe in his workshop to talk about what it takes to make a watch the old-fashioned way, the future of fine watchmaking, and what brands Philippe thinks are doing it right. So without further ado, here are Jack and living watchmaking legend Philippe Dufour
Unknown . Philippe the last time I saw you it's it's uh it's kind of amazing to be here. Uh just because I've seen your work obviously many times. Uh I've seen a lot of pictures of this place. Yes. Uh but I've never had a chance to actually come here and visit you at home. So you're you're you're welcome. And I think the last time I saw you was uh last November at uh Grand Prix Hollogerie de Genève. Exactly, yeah. Yeah, yeah
Unknown . How do you like uh being on the jury there? I like it, it's i interesting. Yeah because it it's f it's force you to see a lot of watches. Uh which normally I maybe I I don't look at it because uh sometimes it's too it's too many, you know? Yeah, yeah. So it's force you and to I would say analyze but I mean to to check every watch and to see what what could be important and and so on depending the category. And this is this is nice and also what is nice about that, it's in the jewelry it's a melting pot, okay? And uh you I learned also a lot from these different people when we uh we' chreanging places, you know, I think it's it's a good idea. And uh for example uh uh you you have somebody who is very uh is very good in in in the um diamond setting and so on, you know, and uh when we judge uh a lady's watch with diamond you say wow it's nice nice and show you he said look the diamonds are perfect it's the first quality but look the setting is
Unknown horrible yeah it's funny you should say that because I sat next to someone who knows a lot about diamonds. He knows a lot about setting and you know, I mean uh I l I love the mechanism. Yeah. You know, that's kind of what I'm interested in. Yeah. Uh but I got a great edu in like fifteen minutes, he gave me a great education. Exactly.
Unknown Yeah, so you learn you learn so much. You learn, okay, and you have a point of view from people who are not really in the technique or in the in the in the in the watch industry, but who are a consumer or collectors, it gives you another another reflection. For sure. And this uh I like that. And as a watchmaker, I can also give some information regarding uh what is inside the watch because it's also important
Unknown . Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's also, I mean, for me, it's a good reminder that not everybody looks at watches the same way I do. Like there's other ways of looking at them. Yeah. And uh you know, something that I don't maybe I don't think it's interesting, but you know, it's uh it's important in a market that's not the US. Uh you know, it's in you know it's important to people whose uh tastes are different, but it doesn't mean they're wrong. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Oh I like I like that. It's a good uh a good uh atmosphere. So when you uh you go to the GPHG, you have a chance to see a lot of different watches and you you also I I I I assume you pay attention to what's going on in the in the watch industry overall. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So the last uh I mean the last few years have been uh they've been kind of difficult uh for the Swiss watch industry. And uh you know when times are tough um it's uh people try to figure out what's And there are a lot of people with a lot of opinions uh about why these uh challenges are there. Some people blame the brands, oh your quality is not so good anymore, uh making too many watches, you got greedy, blah, blah blah blah blah. Uh what do you think? It's a
Unknown it's a big subject. Yeah sure. Yes I think uh I cannot talk about uh uh watchmaking uh uh we I can talk about uh the the the high hand high end yeah uh watches you know and I think uh I said it already the d during uh an uh interview for the hand watches we have to put the human back in inside the watch. Because today the people have more and more knowledge because of the media, modern media, internet forum and everything they know more and more, very often more than the salespeople, you know. And what they are searching it's it's a kind of uh traceability. You want to understand how who made that, how and so on. Yeah, yeah. And I think it's it's it's important when you when you want to spend a a big amount of money, uh you uh you have to understand
Unknown what it's all about. Yeah, but this isn't the this isn't the way the the brands are used to operating. You know, they uh they they th they want you to think the watch just appears by magic.
Unknown But when you see when you see when they launch a a new product, you see the product, a small uh teaser, a small video bow, you see the white coming out from the fog, you know. It's true, it's not it's not even the white, it's a virtual, okay? And then you see some CNC machine, yeah, you know, with 25 tools working with oil. And you want to make people dream about your watch? Come on. Yeah. Something is missing. I always say something, you have to be open, more open. I give you an example. If you visit the factory, most of the factory uh today if you if you visit, if you are you you you can go inside because you're a special person, you know. I mean for them, okay? But for the most of the people you visit, you go uh along and the people are in aquarium, okay? And you have some explanation. Here we do that, we here we do that. Right. Okay. It's okay if you have some kids, okay? But you when you have important people who are able to buy your product, you have to be more open. And I give as example, for example, the person can go inside the workshop and it goes to the person, to the woman who is doing the reglage, the hairspring work, you know? He's going to look at this person and she's going to show him how he's doing, how he's making the brigade overcome and blah blah blah. He's going to make a pictures going to make a selfie with her you know the day he has the what his watch yeah yeah the watch was twice because in in in in you the person who made the heart of the watch. Right. And you can show their friendly. This is a person like your iPhone. This is a person who made the heart of my watch. Yeah, yeah. We have to put more hum
Unknown an. Yeah, it's difficult though because well one of the things that I think about um you know if you're uh Philippe Dufour uh and you have people who want your watches and uh they want your watches because they know that you're making them the way you want to make them. Th this is one thing. But if you're a brand and you're part of a big group and you're pub you're publicly traded, you have shareholders, yeah. There's so much pressure to you know, you wanna make you wanna make price go up, you wanna make costs go down. The way one way you make costs go down is you cut corners. You get rid of people, you do more machines, and if you're not careful at some point you don't have an it you don't have no story left to tell. Yeah I know it's uh it'
Unknown s uh something is surprising also today it's uh uh when I compare with when I was uh coming out of the school uh out of the school, watchmaking school, when I worked at Eager during the my first year, you had the technical part, the production, and you have the commercial part. They were close to each other. They knew. Everybody knew each other. The people from the commercial knew what we were doing and so on. Okay. Today it's no more like that. Everything is separate. Even sometimes are not even in the same building, in the same town. Okay? So they don't know anymore what's what's going on inside the factory. And on the commercial side what happened today since years we try to cut down the prices by reducing the quality. Right. You know, the how do you call that the the quality criteria, the visual quality the are changing and when I talk with some watchmakers of my age, they are really scared because today the criteria is 30 centimeters open uh a naked eye. Right. So if you have a scratch on a scroll, you don't see it. A little scratch on the dial, you don't see
Unknown it. So you can leave the watch. Right. So just to so just just uh to clarify, uh the criteria today for most brands for luxury watches is if you look at it from thirty centimeters centimeters away naked eye if you don't see anything yeah it's okay. It's it's o it's okay. But you don't see it you you don't don't see a lot if you're looking
Unknown for I know, I know that's a problem. Yeah. Why it costs less like that. And on the other hand, because I was telling you the the marketing people uh don't know anymore what's going on on the on the production side, they're giving a present to their customer. What do they give? A loop. Oh boy. Yeah. The
Unknown y give a loop. The stick to be beaten. Yeah. That's an inter that's an interesting way to put it. I mean I you know I mean I've been looking at watches closely since I mean I started getting interested in watches when you moved into this when you started in the studio in about nineteen ninety five. And you know uh that you could it was very hard then it was pretty hard to see a a really, really high end uh uh watch. You know, you had you had to know people or um but uh you know, you look you look at a movement under a loop and it's nineteen ninety five and it's from a big name. Yeah. I'm not gonna say any names, but it's from a big name and you're looking at something really beautiful. Yeah, yeah. And you know, now sometimes I uh put a loop on a movement, you know, again from a a big name, a big house, famous around the world. And you know the the Anglage, it's like it looks like it was done by someone who was very bored or maybe by a machine. Um the Cote de Genève, uh it's you know the deep. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, too too too deep, too deep. And and even the movement is dirty. Yeah. You know? Yeah. It's and it's it's like
Unknown uh I mean how did this happen? I don't know it happened but uh it's also uh uh probably because uh we the the work is organized again to be cheap as possible is is organized in separate things. Okay? And so you can you can hire people without knowledge and you show them how to put this wheel, this bridge with two screws, then it it gives to to to you know for most of the even the watchmaker, I see some young watchmakers are they're bored, you know? Yeah. They learn four years. You know, and sometimes I saw uh some young guys since two years they're in the same factory putting darling hands. Okay, and beside them they have a young girl coming from over the border, 70 years old, she's doing side jobs as him, but much cheaper. Yeah. You see, so it helps you to understand why uh I mean the the quality is is
Unknown going going down. Yeah. So I mean if I'm uh if I'm a young man, which I'm not anymore, but uh you know if I were a young man, I study four years to be a watchmaker. I'm not a little naive, I love watchmaking. And I I go to my first job and uh month after month, year after year, all I get to do is put in two screws or put on you know put on hands. Yeah. I I'll leave the business. Yeah. I'd rather go work and farm up. Yeah, exactly. Or as you were saying before, put on the orange suit and sweep the street. Yeah, exactly. It's um it's sad. Yeah. But there's not there there are so few people left uh who work like yourself who really make make the whole watch beginning to end, including the finish. It's just not the way watches are made anymore. No, no, no, no, no. Yeah. And the industry, you know, when you uh the so your the first watch, the very first watch that you made for yourself, I think we were just looking at the movement that's the uh the uh you made a grand sonnery? Yeah, grand sonnery uh minus reach. Yeah. And that was uh in ninety-two. In ninety-two. Yeah. And and then nobody had ever seen anything like this before. No, no, no, no. Was a big surprise. So uh what made you decide I mean this is uh even today, if I'm a a brand uh you know, with uh a billion dollar company behind me. Uh this to even today this would be and and uh you know computers and CNC, this would be a crazy thing to do. And and you did it yours you did it by yourself without any of this stuff.
Unknown Yeah, right. Yeah. I mean of course the modern technology can can help you. But uh what what is important is uh the component coming out of could be uh hand operated machine or a sensey machine, this component, if you use it the way it is, is not enough. So you have to add something. And this something you add it by by hand. And even the the hand gives you I mean uh something probably less accurate than a Cinse machine. Because since the machine are very accurate. But it gives you this this hand finish. It's like a painting. You know, if you you have a painting made by a robot, okay? But if if if it's hands doing that, you can feel it. Right. And the the I mean the I see the people who are wounding my watches, they feel something when they look at the movement. And this is this is what we want. Yeah, exactly. But emotion. Yeah, yeah. Yes. I give you I give you an example. Uh something happened to me um two years ago in in Japan. I was uh there uh to the uh to to give a lecture to the school. The third time I go there. It's mo it's marvelous to be there because you have twenty students for one week but they kill me, you know. But I mean Oh really? How? Yeah, they want to know. They want to beautiful, you know. And polite and respect. Yeah. Nothing to say. And as I was there, the the shop Shellman who who sold most of the simplicity in Japan. He told me while you are here, spend two days in the shop. So he invited all his customers. I th I m these people I met them ten years ago sometime. Yeah yeah. They came in the shop, recog recognized the kids were like that, now they are big, we make uh uh uh photos, uh they're wearing the watch, explaining me how they live with their watch in a very marvellous moment. And one guy arrived and tell me he's the doctor and he in his shop, uh uh not his shop, his uh how do you call that for a doctor? Uh his uh office. Doctor's office office. He has all uh pictures of my watches. He has all the magazine because it was a lot of uh beginning of the 2000 we had a lot of uh Japanese magazine who make a report uh from the workshop so he has everything and he explains uh uh to his patient where the watch is coming from. Right, right. And to me he has some uh some patient uh very sick cancer end of life and it led them where the simplicity for a while. And he told me they are happy for a moment. And asked me to sign two pictures of his patient, you know. Wearing the simplicity and you have eyes That's an that's an amazing story. Yeah, you you don't know what to answer. It's just uh it was very very very difficult. But when uh I came back in my workshop, I was sitting on my bench and I said it's it's it's just marvelous because I still have a lot of pleasure to finish a watch. Every time uh it's like a new baby, you know
Unknown . Yeah, but you know, uh when you m when you you make a watch um and you're just thinking about making the watch when you make the watch, but it it goes out into the world. Yeah. And sometimes it really makes these uh these moments that are im important in people's lives. Exact
Unknown ly. And I say for me I'm still still a lot of pleasure. Every time a watch is finished, and I said if this watch can give pleasure to somebody around the world, it's just my circle is closed, you know. Yeah, yeah. How long do you want to keep doing this? Because uh yes, I I I don't know, I don't know, um maybe five, ten years, I don't know I don't have any uh health problem my hands are okay my eyes are still okay so and I still have pleasure to do it don't so I stop yes exactly yeah yeah and you know, and uh as independent you you don't have any uh uh uh money coming from the factory, you know. So you have also to to think for the future. And I have uh I'm remarried and my my new wife she has a daughter. She's 17 now. And since the age of 13, I asked her what you have to do in the life and he said, I want to learn uh to become watchmaker. I said, come on, it's not for you, it's an old profession. During two years, she told me that. Yeah. And one day I said, You really want to do that? She said, Yes, okay, let's do it. So she made some some test uh Yeagle good school, AP and also. Finally she had two possibilities, either the school or to learn at AP and I say the sch the school is better, it's more n neutral. And now she's uh she's starting the third year. So and in her mind uh she wants to come
Unknown here. Yeah she does me she wants to come here. But I think maybe it's not so it's not uh an easy thing to be the student of Philippe Dufour. No, no easy
Unknown . But she she has uh I think uh a strong character enough to to
Unknown You know, I mean I think about uh I've talked to Roger uh you know Roger Smith. Yeah. And you know, George Daniels, who was uh he was not uh uh uh you know, he was not what how do you how do you say it? He was not a teddy bear. Yeah, no, no, yeah. Um but Rogers was just he just he just wanted to learn and he didn't care what he had to do. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we'll see for the for the future. Yeah, well because you want to pass on. Yes. You don't want what you don't want uh your light to go out. No, it will be shame to to stop wh w what I've started, you know.ah, Ye yeah. So you know that story that you told um uh it happened in Japan, took place in Japan, and one of the things that uh you're uh famous for is you actually uh uh worked with uh people at uh Grand Seiko and um uh you actually taught them uh some things that you know about uh high quality uh movement finishing. Yeah. Maybe you could uh uh well how did that relationship uh develop? Uh did they just uh show up one day at your door
Unknown ? No, uh I met uh one uh one one of the team uh during exhibition uh in in Chilman. Oh, okay. So and finally uh they asked, could we come and so on
Unknown ? No, not no problem. Because some Swiss watchmakers they would say no, I only want to
Unknown teach a Swiss person. Yeah, yeah, I I know, but uh I mean uh the Swiss that don't come to me. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So I want to keep everything for myself. But you have to go
Unknown to Japan, yeah. Go to Japan. Yeah. What was it like going over there and working with them? How did you how were they to work with
Unknown I I I never work with the people in Seiko. No, no, no. But I mean I will to to give a uh lecture to the school. Yeah. To the school. Yeah. But uh yeah, if you if somebody comes here in the shop and ask me how you do that, I say it's it's no secret. Because I I I mean uh uh I've been facing that. You see the the equipment I have, all this old machine, the the the the use the guide of this machine are in the symmetry. Yeah. You know? So I have to try all by myself to find the the best way to use this the machine or this machine. And uh the the symmetry are full of secrets because that was the way the Swiss watchmaker uh they were hiding everything you know keeping for themselves no no transmission yeah so uh today I think uh watchmaking is uh is no more validized, no more Swiss, is universal. Right. Right. And I realized by the different experiences I had working in uh in Germany, in uh in England, even in the US Virgin Island in the 70s, we were making watches in the US Virgin Island, you know? Yeah, yeah, that's wild. Wow, that's wild. You know, so and over there, I realized I stopped thinking it's onival de jour, it's uh it's worldwide. And when you see what's what happened around the world, the product coming out from uh from Germany, from Japan, from everywhere, even from China, the Chinese uh watchmaking is is is is improving every day more. So uh you
Unknown know But it's it's true, I you know, I mean what you say that uh the cemetery is you said the cemetery is full of secrets. Mm-hmm and uh so much has been lost. Exactly. And there are there are ways of working that uh you know people forget. I mean, you know, uh chiming watches, uh the uh the grandsonnerie, the minute repeater. Um and it's not just the movement construction, the case construction also. Right? Like uh so if you're making a a chiming watch, yeah. I mean one of the things I've heard is uh you have to make the case a certain way if you want the best sounds. And this is lost. Yeah. It's lost. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I d y
Unknown es. Nobody know nobody knows how to do it anymore? No. It's not teach anymore. I remember when I made the the when I made the the the the first grand sorry pocket size for for just big brand in the Brussels. I had to find a case maker. I had a fan one in short form where it still he he has all the all equipment to make this, you know. And to make the back of the case, it's uh it's not just stamped. It's you know it's and and and the cases he made uh give give a nice uh resonance. You know, because uh for a repeater the case is to to function, to protect the movement, and also to increase the sound of the of the repeater. And today uh this is it's lost. Yeah. Because when you when you check the the the the old pocket watches, you know, and I restore during five years, many, many and every time I had one with a beautiful sound, I used to check the way the case was done, you know? And even the base of the case, I mean the the the ring okay of the case is not from circumference of the is not from around piece. It was from a a plate. And they put it on a what do you call that? You know, do like that. Like a roller. And it's a flat piece and it when it goes out of the roller is like a U, U shape. Okay? Then they put it round, they solder it, and then they rectify it to have perfectly round. Though the vein of the metal is like that., Okay? Yeah yeah. It's already. It's like I say to the case maker, uh, it's like if you make a violin on your sensei machine. You take a piece of of wood, you program your machine, it's going to be perfect to the hundreds of o of millimeter will be perfect, but dead. Because it respects the the the the vein of the wood and the and the can of the wood
Unknown . Yeah I mean this is this is one of the things I've heard about making cases for uh repeaters. If you if you just stamp the metal, it's uh as you say it's uh perfect but dead. Yeah. But if but if you work the metal, the as you say, the vein of the metal changes, the crystal structure of the metal changes. Exactly. Yeah, like
Unknown uh uh it's uh becomes work hardened. Yeah. If you take most of the pocket pocket uh watches with the repeater of the old one, if you take just the back, the back is is made in two parts. You have the bezel with the hinge, like that, and inside the back itself, it's uh it's foot stamp around uh flat piece then it's pushed on uh on a on a lace with wooden shape and it's like a burnish you know they press it to to to get the right uh the the the right uh the curve the curve and then so the the the material is on tension. Okay, then they press it in the in the in the in the bezel and they solder it. And when you take your your back you just knock like that and it's just chiming like that
Unknown .. Ye Yeahah. So it's like a it's almost like making a drum, isn't it? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But but this this is a a a lot of extra steps. Yes. Yeah. And it uh takes a person uh a lot of practice. Mm-hmm they have to be taught by someone who knows that uh you're a big brand with uh shareholders, you want to s tr find someone who can do this or you wanna just get the machine to go pfft. Watchmaking has changed so much from when you came into the studio in nineteen ninety-five, I feel like watch making had just started to change into what it is today. And you know, the the Swiss watch industry as an industry, like we're lucky we can talk about I mean I feel lucky because I've seen some unbelievably beautiful watches. Still they're very it's very rare now, but you know, the stuff you make, the stuff Roger Smith Smith Smith makes, you know, stuff stuff really made by hand by someone who says I'm not gonna do things different because it's cheaper. Yeah. But we don't n we don't want we if we want the Swiss watch industry to stay alive, we're talking about industrial watchmingak. You know, I think a lot of people don't understand you buy a watch from a you know a big brand that makes half a million watches a year. Uh it has to be an industry. And if we want to keep this industrial base alive, you can't make watches, they can't make watches the way you do or there's no industry anymore. I know, I know. It's uh
Unknown what what what to do? Yeah. I mean uh I think the the the one thing they have to to to adjust is uh is the real price of the of the product because uh the margin is so enormous you know yeah the cost you multiply by ten. Yeah. Okay. It's it's it's it's too much. I mean the the the person who buys such watch uh it doesn't have I mean uh for for the money I would say
Unknown . He's not getting value for the money. Yeah, I mean uh I've seen you know since I first got interested in watches in the you know mid-late 1990s. You know, I think about a simple dress watch, gold, nice movement. Yeah. Nothing, no complications, time only. From a big name. Yeah. We'll just pick pick any big name. And uh, you know, uh that watch in nineteen ninety five, ninety six, ninety seven, this is maybe a five, six thousand dollar watch. Exactly. And now it's a twenty five thousand dollar watch. And I'm pretty sure it's the same watch.
Unknown Yeah. Uh yeah, same watch, uh probably less the finishing is not as good as yours. Yeah, yeah exactly. Probably because we always try to to cut down the cost. So you think the the industry is gonna shrink? No, I don't think so because I mean it's enough no it's enough blind people aro
Unknown und the world to buy the way enough blind people around the world to keep the industry oh boy. No, I mean so I suspect you're absolutely right, but uh it makes me sad because uh people forget what the standard should be. Yeah, exactly. And uh you know when I see a watch that comes from a you know a a big old famous name, you know, incredible history, you know, uh blah blah blah blah blah, to to quote you. Um and I and I see that the the work is just it the work it's just not it's not good. You know, and uh I can't as someone who loves watches and who writes about them, you know, I and I I I understand that people have to make a living. Yeah. You know, fine, but like I can't uh as a writer I can't defend it. You know, what do I say?
Unknown Yeah, it's true. And I think uh maybe more and more pe because today people who can appreciate can see the difference is very uh small percentage around around the world. You know, the people uh who goes to Singapore uh uh buying watch, asking, uh see the watch in the window, you put the watch on the tray, taking the watch, taking the loop out of the pocket and the to the salesman, tell me to finish my hand we, can see it's all vibrate, it's okay. You have these people, but it's not uh, of course, uh the majority. It's a very small percentage. But probably this per percentage will grow. Yes. Will grow with the yeah because of the modern media and and so on. And this is a bit scary because uh the you know uh more and more people will recognize what is nice or what is not too good. Right. You know? Right. The knowledge is growing on the on the consumer
Unknown side. And I think it's very dangerous too because you know you uh I mean to to buy a a a really nice real luxury watch you know to or what's supposed to be a real luxury watch nowadays it's become very very expensive and uh maybe somebody f they fall in love with watches. They wait six months, they buy their they buy their first good watch again from a big name and uh they take it home and uh maybe six months later they have a problem and they bring it back and it costs twentyive-f percent of what it costs to buy the watch to fix a simple problem. Where they learn uh a little bit about finishing and they start to look at the back and they say to themselves, I thought this was so nice. But it's not so nice. So the the industry is in trouble if it if it keeps making things that people if somebody has that kind of experience where they it it's if the watch becomes a source of regret they're they're gonna go away and they're never gonna come back. It's true. It'
Unknown s true. And also if we talk about Swiss watchmaking, something could happen today in some uh in some countries, some markets, is still the reference. In Asia, for example, the young generation, uh 25, 30, 35, they dream about what? You know, a BMW, OD, Mercedes, okay? Right. And a Swiss watch. Right. Okay. Now, even they are worried in a in a in in some market uh like like Singapore because the generation are going faster and faster, shorter and shorter. And they are worried because in the younger one these references maybe are different. They still the German car but could be the German watch it right because in their mind a country uh made in Germany, you know, they make cars so strong, so beautiful car, I'm sure their watches are also good and and so on. Yeah. And and they are.
Unknown And their watches are actually pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. That's scary. Yeah. I mean you're you're not wearing a Swiss watch. You're wearing a long not today now. It could happen some other day.
Unknown Yeah. I remember I I saw that at Basel. It was in the they were exhibiting at Basel and you had this big booth, like a big grey house, you know, and it's a window. In the window you had the datograph movement scale 20 or something. And then look at that. Wow, I see marvelous way it's done. And I went inside and I I saw the watch. And it's exactly the same. And it's it's what I call theed trilogy, uh the trilogy, uh Bloomline trilogy. Because it's it was his idea. Bloomleim was a really uh a great great person. We lost him uh too early. But when they relaunched uh Lange, he became uh in charge of uh uh in the Richmond Group, in charge of Lange, IWC and Hegelkurt. And he put everybody to his place. Okay, so Yeager could look backwards what you did and say, oh yeah, we did reverso. Okay, they start to make reverso. Same thing with AWC and Nange said, okay, we're going to make something uh real uh German. And the three watches, Lange one, to be on Pulmerit and Detroit was his idea. And it was it was a good choice. I mean, just just amazing was. And when when I I heard Lange Fune has been bought by Richmond Group, because I knew Lange Sunnet by Pocket watches when I restore and I knew the quality this little difference okay? Very high quality and when I heard that uh uh has been bought by Richmond, Eagle Court, they're going to make uh Lange watches with local movement. That was my uh my my worry. And when I saw the first Langer one with the three-quarter bridge, I said, wow, they did it. You know. And this is great. I mean, to respect the style and the tradition. That's nice
Unknown . You know, and again, uh I think about what's interesting to me and it doesn't have to be what uh you know not every people don't have to be interested in what I'm interested in. But I look at the auction market where what what determines the price of a watch is almost a hundred percent cosmetics, how the watch looks. You know, and we have these funny words tropical dial. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, like whatever. I'm I'm lost in that. I'm I'
Unknown m I'm lost. That's the I th thank God. I'm so glad you said that because me too. Yeah, because uh what do you think about uh thirty two forty four? I don't know what they're talking about. Yeah. You know it's a black doll with a little uh something is missing on the right and come on no yes. You know. But um what I would say. But it's still some uh in in interesting brand uh we are, I mean, who are following a line. I give you an example. Some people, some young people ask me sometimes that they want to start collecting watches. Yeah. They asked me for advice. I say, okay, you can buy Rolex. Rolex, it's a relabel, good quality for the price. And still, still good quality for the price. Of course. Yeah. And they are not telling you bull scheme they're not telling you rubbish, okay? Because uh uh they don't tell you it's finished by hand like a hundred years ago and blah blah blah. No. We know the way it's done. It's I mean uh the it's it's a kind of perfection the way. And all the components are a hundred percent checked and and so on. And the result if you have a reliable watch. And I said to young one, but this is I mean you have no r
Unknown isk. Okay? Yeah. Yeah. Okay? On on any level. You buy it, it's gonna work. Exactly. And and it's not uh it's not uh you you just said it's a kind of perfection. Yes. It's not the perfection of uh someone like you, you know, uh fifty years uh you know uh experience hand finishing. But but they don't they don't tell you at the end of it. They don't tell you that it'
Unknown s right. That's a different with some other brand. Right, right. Okay. And uh very strong also in the after service because of course they don't launch uh 35 different model every year or different movement. But I mean they assure the after service. And you can go anywhere in the world, Singapore, Hong Kong, your role excenters, all equipment the same, the benches are made here in the Valley de Jou, you know. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Every bench and every Rolex boutique. Yes. Yeah, that's amazing. That's amazing. So you have a you have a real service. So and the second brand I I advise for to the young people I say you can buy a nice watch is normal. It's German and also it's something they don't cheat. They tell you what it is. They don't tell you blah blah blah blah blah blah. And the product itself is very interesting. It's a homemade movement. The design is very pure and uh uh they have a great success in uh in Japan for example. Yeah, yeah. I like this this type of product. Yeah. Anybody else? Uh no
Unknown . I have to think about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But those are two you know, I I I bet that uh if you um it's Rolex, it's a funny thing, you know. Uh I mean everybody knows the name obviously. Yes. And uh, you know, they don't need help from anybody selling watches, obviously. But it's weird. You know, when I first got interested in watches, it was very fashionable to say, oh Rolex, pfft, you know. Rolex. Who wants a Rolex? Who wants a Rolex? And then you know, you learn a little bit about watches and you start to realize uh these are pretty good you know and I don't have to go to the bank and ask for money to buy one. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But is that is that the is is that the future of uh I mean for most people, you know, even if you're a doctor in America, family doctor in America makes maybe 220, 250, right? But you have to pay back your loan for medical school. And maybe you wanna get married. Maybe you want to start saving for college for your kid, you know, pay if you can afford to have more than one. Maybe you need a car to get to and from work. So there's not so much money left. And you know, when a really nice Swiss watch is five thousand, six thousand, seven thousand dollars. Mm-hmm. You can afford this is something you can afford. You buy your one nice watch, you're done, you wear it for the rest of your life, it makes you happy every time you look at it. Exactly. You know, and uh your patients look at it and they they they say look at your watch and they think, uh oh, here's a this is a reliable person, he's got a nice watch. Uh but when that watch is twenty five thousand dollars, you have to you have to be an idiot to spend that much money. Exactly. So like the the uh I mean I think about this in the US, you know, in the the support for the big names in Swiss watchmaking, the the real f you know, for fine fine watchmaking. Yes. Not industrial watchmaking like you get from Rolex or uh you know on a on another level from Gnomos. The people who you who used to support Swiss watchmaking, they can't afford it anymore. You know, like a doctor can't afford it. Yeah. Lawyer can't afford it. Engineer can't afford it. Not unless you're a very, very you have to be a big shot lawyer. Yeah. You know? So I mean without people realizing it, this whole population has like they've gone away. And we've we've lost them for a generation now. And I don't know if they're gonna come back. Yeah. You know. And I think the industry is starting to realize that uh you know you can't you can't keep the you can't keep the uh the the craft of Swiss watchmaking alive on 250,000 ultra high net worth people around the globe. It's too much too much volatility. But how do you how do you come back? How do you get those people back? And on top of that you have the conne
Unknown cted watches also. What do you think of those? Have you ever uh I think Yeah, I try the the Samsung. Yeah. Samsung is a nice looking watch. Yeah, very nice. I mean it looked like a watch. It's not the instrument, yeah. But uh um the last time I was in uh in Asia was Sang Hong Kong, Singapore and Japan. And when I have time I like to sit and watch the people. Okay? And I watch the people and the the young people uh let's say the 15, 25, they're not wearing watches anymore. Okay? Right. And I would say what will happen with the connected watches, probably this young generation will go in that technology, okay? And they're going to get used to wear something at their wrist. And this person they will improve in the social status, okay? When they are 29, 30, they've been charged with a bank or insurance, okay? And they say, well, I'm fed up with this plastic stuff. And they go for the real thing. Yeah. That's my
Unknown I think well I've I've y you know, uh I've heard uh other people say that as well. Like uh I mean at least the smartwatch. Okay, it's uh it's the technology is interesting anyway. Yeah, true. And it doesn't give you the same experience as you know, like uh you have a you have a beautiful watch from uh let's say Longa Zona or you have a uh you know a Rolex, uh there's something about the mechanical watch, it's a different experience. It's not the experience that you get from a smartwatch. And s you know, uh the the maybe the s smartchw is aater dang to the low end. Of course. You know, like f five hundred to one thousand. But you know, it's not gonna you y you don't uh uh stop wearing nice shoes to the office just because you have a pair of boots uh to wear at the weekend.. Yeah true true Have you seen the Apple Wat
Unknown ch? Yeah I saw but I never tried. I saw this uh rectangular stuff. Yeah. You like uh you like you think a watch should be round? Yeah, of course. No, no, no, some Nazar square watches. But uh yeah
Unknown . If you had uh unlimited time, unlimited resources, what would you want to work on the most
Unknown ? If I let's say tomorrow I finish everything, I have one order. I have nothing to to to do. I arrived at my workshop and I said now I can do it, okay? I will make another you have so much money. Yeah. You don't have to worry about it. Okay, no, just come here for the pleasure. Yeah, yeah. Okay? Uh I will work on uh on a pocket sized turbilly. Pocket? Really? Of course. A turbine. Because a turbillon is made for pocket watches. Yeah. Yeah. Well the rest is gimmick. Yeah. It's true. Yeah yeah. Because uh you are the turbillon
Unknown with your watch. You are the turbulent. You don't need one. Right, right. A pocket turbulent. Anything special about the turbulent or just something very pure? Very pure. Ye
Unknown ah. Took inspiration from what was done in this era in the twenties, thir
Unknown ties. That's amazing. That's amazing. Well thank you very much, Philippe. That was a long conversation. I really appreciate your taking time. You're welcome. I've been serious enough. Yeah.
Unknown Not too serious. Not too serious. And I'll see you at the GPSG. You know, I always say. At my age, I
Unknown can say what I think. Thank God. Thank God. When if not now. Thank you so much.
Unknown Alright, that's about the time where they wrapped things up and went outside. Uh right before Philippe Dufour actually flew a drone around his workshop, which uh is something you'll have to see to believe. Thanks again to Philippe for taking the time to chat with us and thanks to Jack for a stellar interview. This week's episode was recorded on location at Philippe Dufour's workshop in the Valley de Joux and was produced and edited by Grayson Korhonen. Please remember to subscribe and rate the show, it really does make a difference. Thank you and see you again on Monday at the regular time and place.