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In Conversation With Max Büsser

Published on Wed, 9 Oct 2024 16:55:00 +0000

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Synopsis

In this episode of Hodinkee Radio, hosts Tony Traina and Ben Clymer sit down with renowned independent watchmaker Max Büsser to discuss his remarkable journey in the watch industry. The conversation spans Büsser's entire career, from his formative years at Jaeger-LeCoultre in the 1990s during the rebirth of traditional watchmaking, through his time launching Harry Winston's Opus series, to founding his own brand MB&F (Max Büsser & Friends) in 2005.

Büsser shares intimate details about the early days of MB&F, explaining the philosophy behind crediting all suppliers and collaborators - the "Friends" in the company name. He discusses the challenges of being an independent watchmaker, the evolution of creativity in the industry, and his approach to innovation that prioritizes passion over market trends. The conversation touches on memorable products like the HM2 (Ben's first MB&F purchase) and the surprising market journey of the LM101, which took six years to gain traction before becoming highly sought after.

A significant portion of the episode covers MB&F's recent milestone: Chanel's minority investment in the company. Büsser candidly explains that this decision was driven by succession planning concerns as he contemplates the brand's future beyond his leadership. He emphasizes that the partnership will not change MB&F's creative direction or production philosophy, with the brand maintaining its commitment to approximately 400 watches per year with zero growth plans for the next four to five years.

Throughout the conversation, Büsser reflects on the importance of maintaining childlike creativity, the dangers of success leading to complacency, and his commitment to hand-finishing movements and pushing horological boundaries. He shares insights about the Swiss watch industry's evolution, the camaraderie among brands in the struggling 1990s versus today's competitive landscape, and his deep respect for figures like Günther Blümlein who shaped modern watchmaking. The episode offers a rare, introspective look at one of independent watchmaking's most innovative minds.

Transcript

Speaker
Tony Traina This episode is brought to you by Hodinki Insurance. Collecting watches is fun. Insuring watches is not. But with Hodinki Insurance, we've teamed up with Chubb, the premier insurer of valuable collections, to offer a better and more seamless experience to ensure your watches and even jewelry. Minimizing the paperwork and maximizing the protection so you can stop worrying about your watches and focus on enjoying them. Hodinki Insurance, protect what you love. Visit insurance.hodiniki.com for more There's no one quite like Max Boosser in the watchworld. Each of his creations is so innovative, unique, and cutting edge, but also all clearly from the same mind, challenging the conventions of watchmaking. He got his start in watches working with Jigger Lecult during the rebirth of traditional watchmaking in the 1990s. From there he joined Harry Winston and launched its Opus series, collaborating with independent watchmakers like FP Jorn. Then, in 2005, he started his own brand, Max Booster and Friends. His horror logical and legacy machines are like no other watches, pieces of kinetic art. On today's episode, Max joins Ben and me to talk about his entire career, including his nearly 20 years at MBNF. We also talk about the current state of innovation and creativity in the watch industry. We also discuss the recent investment in MBNF by Chanel and what's next for MBNF. Without further ado, enjoy this conversation with Max and Ben. Max Boosser, thank you so much for joining Hodinky Radio. It's been a while since we had you on the show or on the website, so welcome back. Thank you, Tony. It's a great pleasure being here. And of course, we've got the founder, Ben Klymer, here as well. Ben, how you doing today? I'm good, Tony. How are you? Good. Thanks for joining the show. Guys, before we get into anything that's going on with MBNF and and you, Max, you guys go way back obviously. Do you remember, Max? I guess I'll direct it to you first. When you first became aware of Hodinky, and then after that, when you first may have met uh our our own Mr. Climber? I don't remember exactly. That's what getting
Max Büsser old gets you to. Um I I think I remember being one of uh the first fans because let's not forget that in those days anybody would speak about us we would love and so so dinky so Ben started uh covering what we were doing, and I I have this memory of one time I visited New York and um we met up and we went into my hotel room and Ben had his iPhone, so it couldn't be like fourteen, 15 years ago. I don't know. And he put it on a on a on an easel and and he uh interviewed me. It was the first time ever somebody filmed me during an interview and it was the m in my hotel room, and it was for me incredible. It's it was the first, and you always forget remember the first
Tony Traina . Uh Ben from there it obviously grew, and then the first limited edition that Hodinki ever did was was just a few years after that Fateful hotel interview. What do you remember about that
Ben Clymer and the the stainless steel L LM one oh one? Look, but but before the LM101 there was something called the music machine, which this is not a plant, sits in my office right there. There it is right there. That we kept one uh and that's I think that's number five of five. Um so before the the watch was the music machine, but before that, uh and I don't think anybody knows this, and I doubt I don't even know if Max will remember this. There there was, you know, as as many of you know i i i come from you know i would say very middle class uh upbring both my parents were basically poke school teachers it was like i didn't come into this with the ability to purchase watches at all the very first nice watch i bought myself was a Rolex Explorer, then Rolex Mariner. Uh, then uh I saved up and on a payment plan I bought a uh Royal Oak, an A Terries Royal Oak. The watch I bought after that was actually an HM2. Uh that Max uh was great. I think the retail on that watch, I mean you would know better than I was like what seventy-five, eighty, something like sixty-eight, something like that. Yeah. And I said, I really love this thing. And Max was like, Hey, like, you know, we could probably figure, figure something out here. So, you know, we did. And I bought an HM2 in white gold, which for those who don't remember, is kind of like the c cassette looking last year, kind of rectangular watch. And if you look back at some of the early features on Hodinky, including in the New York Times, I'm wearing an HM2 in white gold. Uh which you know was just like such a revelation in terms of what Watchmaking could be. I mean a submariner to me was crazy. A royal Uck was beyond crazy. And HM2 in 2000 and I'm gonna say 10 or 11. I mean, this was this was wild to me. This this was fantasy
Max Büsser . It was a pretty wild watch. I mean, it was also a wild era. Um that all sort of stopped the wild world after 2009. But if I look back today, it's a 58 millimeter wide watch. And I look at it today, I'm like, wow. And especially in an era of vintage-looking watches, you look at an HM2, it seems like something completely alien. It does.
Ben Clymer It really does. But that watching really opened my eyes up to what the real Swiss mod Swiss watchmaking industry was because it introduced me to Jean-Marc WeDirect, uh who did the the retrograde on that, obviously, uh and several other of of your suppliers. Um and I think that was really eye opening to me and really changed my perspective because I believed at the time that, you know, it was just Max Booster himself sitting in a workshop creating these watches all by himself, you know. And even with AP, when I first visited AP, I had no understanding of how the supply network worked at AP and of course Rolex. But that watch really changed my perception of things just from a quality perspective because my my royal look at the time was forty years old. It was a two a nineteen seventy two watch. And then this was a modern contemporary high-end watch and it really just changed things for me. Uh so that was a a totally uh game changing ownership perspective for me. And that of course I've since gone on to buy other MBS and other high-end watches. But that was a that was a big moment for me to get that thing
Tony Traina . Max, what Ben says obviously gets to the very foundation of your company. It's it's obviously in the name there. Do you think though the philosophy in which you kind of lay out your suppliers and your friends that are involved in in every single project from the PR down to uh every every single component of the movement, do you think that's had an impact? Ben mentioned how it's had an impact on him. Do you think it's had a larger impact on the watch world in general in terms of transparency and talking about your suppliers and uh just changing the way in which people uh understand these things
Max Büsser um I'm not sure. I would like to think that we've had an impact, but I'm actually not sure. Um it's it's still absolutely amazing to me the amount of people who even purchase one of our watches are not aware that we actually credit everybody who w works on them. Uh I still have colleagues in the industry calling me up saying, Oh, who does this for you? And we're like, well, it's on our website. Oh, really? Uh so um for us it was very important because it's part of the fundamental definition of what MBNF stands for. People the way you want to be treated. But I'm not exactly sure we we help. I hope we did. And if we did, all the better
Tony Traina . The big theme I think that uh is overarching in everything you talk about with MBNF, interviews you've done, the way in which you present the company is kind of rediscovering childhood through creativity. One of your unofficial motto, maybe even it's official, I think, is cre a creative adult is a child who survived, something you've said over and over again that I think a lot of res itonates with a lot of people. So maybe we'll start here. What do you think a kid or a child Max Bucer would think of MBNF and what you've dealt with the company
Max Büsser ? If it's the 13 year old me would probably say, what the hell? You were supposed to be creating cars wh while you're doing watches. Um but if I look a little bit further, um wow, I think I never ever ever imagined as a kid that I would be able to create everything I've created and and bring together the people and it was interesting because um at the end of last year um I was doing the performance reviews of my team and and Harris, who you probably know are communication directors' baby for 13 years, and I asked him how I could improve. And he looked at me and he said, Um, we would like you to be happier. And I was like, What? What do you mean? He said, Yeah, you're you're always on the edge. You're always thinking two years ahead, five years ahead, what could go wrong, etc. Uh look, look, look at what we've managed in 19 years to do. It's pretty insane. And um, yes, I am uh I'm incredibly grateful, I'm incredibly happy. But at the same time, my software has been programmed after twenty years of being a gazelle in the savannah and and waiting for the leopard, the the lion, the hyena, it was not about if it was about when they would turn up. And you you realize that I I've been way too much thinking always of what could go wrong, but at the end of the day, if I take a step back, wow. Wow. What a story. What a journey
Tony Traina . You know, what you mentioned there, uh Stephen McDonnell, your frequent collaborator, gave a great talk at Dubai Watch Week last year, obviously talking about the the sequential and the development of the sequential and collaborating with you on it. One of the things he mentions that he he was talking about with you at the time was the way in which it drives him almost insane, uh the what you're talking about right now, thinking about what might go wrong, what you hadn't thought of in the movement or the caliber that that could go wrong, sort of the what's lying in wait for you. How do you uh have you gotten better at dealing with that over your sort of nineteen years and the however many calibers you've developed over over your time, almost twenty years at MBNF
Max Büsser ? Um I have to learn to be in the moment. I never look back. Well, now I'm a little bit forced because there was the catalogue raisonnée, and then now we're coming up to the 20th anniversary. So we have to go and revisit the the past and I I rarely do that, but that's not an issue. The issue is that I'm not in the moment. And uh I'm not in the moment enough with my family, I'm not in the moment with my team, I don't celebrate enough. Uh I'm always thinking of the next, the next. And um that's something I have to work on. Steeman is somebody who is uh extraordinary uh in every way. Uh extraordinary meaning he he's he's the only genius I've met. Extraordinary, he's out of the ordinary. And um his um insane talent comes with a curse. And his curse is that everything has to be perfect, and if it's not perfect, he um he's in suffering. But it's serious suffering. Uh I I'm a perfectionist, but I've learned over the years that those taking it from 90% to 100%, those 10 extra percent are such a source of distress that sometimes it's better if you just stay at 90, 95% and uh you can let it go. So in that way, I've I've I've improved. So y you would say great is the enemy of good. Well it's a yes. I think we're in an industry which too often has put the cursor down. And uh I I think it's very important that we keep that level of excellence and extraordinary and artisanship and hand finishing, et cetera. Um it's not only about the branding and the look of the product. Uh, but um I I've realized over the years that some battles you have to let go. It's it's just pointless and you're just gonna stop the whole machine if you're just getting intent on that specific battle
Tony Traina . I've heard you tell the story before of how you kind of your baptism into the watch industry, if you if you will, was a university project and you would it was in the early nineties, I guess it would have been. Uh and the watch industry was quite small at the time and you would send letters out to brands. And because it was quite small, you'd get uh CEOs or very high up people in the brand to to respond. You mentioned you talked with a lot of the higher up folks at the time, one of whom was was Gerald Genta, the of course famous designer, Royal Oak, and all these other things. I'm curious what you remember, if anything, about this encounter during your university years with with Gerald Genta, anything he may have said to you at the time that that stuck with you 35 years ago
Max Büsser . Um but you know good question that um the issue is that when I sent those letters out, I was actually not interested in the watch world. It was just a project as a as a student. And I didn't realise how extraordinary it was to meet uh Mr. Prolox, uh Mr. Urkhardt, Mr. Belmore, uh Mr. and of course Gerald Genta himself. Um I think the the only thing I honestly remember of the meeting with Gerald Gento is that um I don't know if I'm gonna dare say that. Um he was very, very, very proud of himself. Uh and uh and so um and I remember I th that's the the feeling I remember still today leaving the place guy, guy, this guy's got a pretty high opinion of somet
Tony Traina hing Uh That's right. So after after school you've told the story before of how you ended up at Gigère Le Colte, kind of a chance encounter, uh having having coffee at the top of a mountain skiing in Switzerland as as one does. You spent seven years at Géger le Cult. I'm I'm wondering if you can uh the this era of Ger le Cult, might I add, is kind of of utter fascination to me, and I could spend an entire episode just asking you about about this time, but I'll spare the listeners this time around at least. And I'm wondering if you could summarize sort of things you learned there, both in terms of how to do things and then perhaps how not to do them uh going forward in your career. It was an extraordinary school
Max Büsser . I mean, it was um I often say that I was blessed to enter Jaeger when it was more or less just coming out of bankruptcy and enter Harry Winston when it was going into bankruptcy. Because you you realize that you learn so much as a youngster coming out of college where you don't know anything. Well you think you know stuff, but you don't know anything. And um I was we were part of a very small team in a very it was it was already a company with about 200, 220 employees, but it was making 17 million dollars at 220 employees. I can tell you that's not a great business. And um and so what I learned was I learned how to work I learned the power of giving a purpose to a team, and our purpose was trying to save that company, and actually was trying to save the industry. We're all in it uh at rock bottom, and we're all friends. It's interesting. In those days, we were all friends, uh AP and Blancin and Borguet and would catch up for lunches and and dinners. We're friends because we're all in it together. And um I I learned that what only John Belmont taught us is that just bringing really nice people with a purpose together. There were no superstars, there were no Michael Jordans in that team. Um we moved mountains and it was seven extraordinary years of uh we made a lot of errors. We uh we were we were all engineers and all product creators and we're completely useless at getting the message out. So the only way we could actually try to make this business survive was to create new products. So that was fine with me, of course, but I was the product manager. But we get Ton churning out tens and dozens and hundreds of new references every year and try to sell them to retailers. Of course, in those days, no brand would sell directly to a client. You had to go through a retail or distributor even before. And we were just like we have this And then we would see, oh, that failed, that failed, that failed, oh, that actually worked. Oh, let's try and do more of that. So it was really a trial and error. But um it just fit me very well the fact of we're all engineers, all product creators, and we had a ball
Ben Clymer . It was quite a run. Can we get specific? Like what are some of the products that you're you're most proud of or most embarrassed by. And who else was with you? Any other names that that we would remember?
Max Büsser Well, in those days, uh, our little team was of course right on top the legend, Günther Bloomline. And that was an incredible uh experience for me to be around him for seven years. Uh Henri John Belmont was uh was the boss. Uh Jean-Pierre Sassar, he's passed away, he was the head of production, he was incredible, he was a machine. He he brought that company while I was there from 200 to 800 people and everything. Remember, we were the manufacture. When nobody was a manufacturer in those days. So um we we were doing our own cases, we're doing our own movements, all our movements were made internally. That was unheard of 30 years ago. And um and so um there was um uh Yasmina Steele who's been at Patek now for 25 years. Um there is uh Yanek Deleskievic of course the designer who just retired a few years ago and accompanied Jaeger for better part of I think of 30 years. We we shared the same office together and that was that was great. He would take out his saxophone in the end of the the day and and start playing in the office. Tony does that for us sometimes. That's true. It was it it was it was family and it was uh it was fun. And um and I also have to thank Henri John Belmont because he shielded us from the stress. I don't I cannot even imagine because afterwards in my life I had his job and I realized what stress you have and he completely shielded us and just let us do our job and and enjoy it and and and it was I I I owe so much to my John Ben Moore. I mean without him I don't know where I would be today
Tony Traina . Are there products that you still uh Ben kind of asked it products that you're most proud of? I mean I, associate the 90s very much from from Gere nowadays with the, you know, kind of started with the 60th anniversary reversal and then the complicated ones coming after that. But from your perspective, in inside of it, are there's are there some that you're most proud of now
Max Büsser ? Clearly, I mean that series that which started in ninety-one, the year I arrived, the 60th anniversary, which then was the um the tourbillon, the minute repeater, the chronograph, the geography. They just relaunched the chronograph, of course, the whole new version of it. But that original nineteen ninety six, I'm gonna say chronograph, it was those movements were so small, so beautiful, incredible value for money. And um tells you that branding unfortunately is very important in our industry because Jaeger didn't have the brand uh how do you say power that other great brands like Audemar and Patek and Vachon had. And just because of that, I don't think it was recognized to the the level it should have. There was also, of course, the launch of the master, the master control. So I arrive in ninety-one and we're coming out with all these different lines. I remember just when I arrived, we launched a brand a line called the gentilme. And the gentilme was a complete rip-off of the Calatrava. But it was a copy of the Calatrava, but ours was automatic, while the Calatrava was handwinding. And the Calatrava was nine thousand five hundred francs, and the gentil automatic was seven thousand five hundred francs. So we thought we're gonna do a killing here. And uh our retailers thought also, and they all bought it, and they all stayed on the shelves for a good part of two decades, I think, because between seven thousand five hundred a Jaeger and nine thousand five hundred a patek, it's no-brainer. You go for the patek. Uh and uh automatic or not automatic. We we learned the hard way. But then at some point, so we had the seductrice, the rendezvous, the original rendezvous, which is a really cool watch. Unfortunately, it was quartz, but with a bezel which turns with a diamond on it and you would actually place it in front of the time of your rendezvous. It was like a sort of a uh a a time counter. That was a beautiful watch. Complete, but it was quartz and it just didn't work. Um, there was the Krios, there was the Hurion, there was the Odysseus, things we've all forgotten, and probably for a good reason. Um, and then came the master. So in 92, we decided we have well, let's try and do a watch which is a little bit retro. There was no retro watches in the 90s. We were recreating a new industry. So it was let's do something which looked a bit like the 50s and uh which had this master control thousand hours test on it. And oh gosh, did we learn? First of all, we learned, and I think enough years have gone by so I can say this, that I think that 40% of all the watches didn't pass the test, which was a big surprise for us because watches in those days, and maybe still in many brands now are tested for like two days and um and that's it and here a thousand hours is is six weeks and um and it was tested in all sorts of shock somatic et,c. et,c et.c. And we discovered that after a couple of weeks, things started going wrong. So uh that was a great learning curve and I think Jaeger insanely improved the quality of their products thanks to that test. But what also hit us is that the amount of letters, in those days we got letters, there were no emails. Uh we got letters of people writing to us and saying, I've got my Junghans Mega, which is linked to satellite, which that actually existed, and I've been counting the timing, and your watch is off four seconds a day. And we're like, well, that's great. And it's like, no, no, it's a thousand hours control. It must not lose four seconds. I'm like, no, that's really cool. And so we realized that saying thousand hours control, people thought it was like a quartz watch. And we had to then change the perception and and all that. So again, insane learning curves and uh trial and error, and I I gosh, I'm I'm a little bit nostalgic of that era
Ben Clymer . So c can I ask a s something of an aside because and it only was triggered because you mentioned the name Odysseus, which is now obviously used by Langa. And I you know, I I I would imagine that you are as well, but there's a few Langa fans on on this podcast here. What was the perception Langa working at JLD in the early 90s? Did you guys have visibility into what they were doing? Did it feel special back then or was it like these guys and dressed and like what what's going on over there
Max Büsser ? So I was incredibly lucky to be in the inner sanctum. And uh so Günther Blumlein would come over every two to three months and be to supervise because he was the head of the three brands and um and he would show us the drawings, what he'd done with Mr. Mice and uh uh and uh I don't know if Court Klaus was it but I think it was mice mostly who did it and uh and I I saw the Langewa and I was like wow and then of course there was the Paulomery, Tourbillon, the the Cabaret, the Langematic, and I I saw all those products and he would show us and he was very proud. And what's incredible is that honestly, he virtually single-handedly built that company from scratch. And what's incredible is also that the Lange pocket watches didn't have, except for the design of the bridges, they didn't have really an aesthetic which you could recognize. And he basically, created the aesthetic of what Alange is today from scratch, more or less by his own. Günther was one of the greatest product creators I've ever met. And um and so it's interesting uh you you mentioned that because um the one brand which was missing in my collection has been Lange. I have I've been procrastinating for years and years and years. And I actually just ordered one ten days ago and I got myself it had to be a lange one um because it's it's the lange which I saw Günter create uh the brand it's it's pretty extraordinary what he managed. Absolutely. I have one right here. I'm a fan as well. Which uh which one did you you order? Just out of curiosity. Um I managed to get a uh Grand Langewan Lumen. Nice. And uh of course that's after Gunter Bloomline Zero. Um but uh I've I been procrastinated just too long and suddenly one popped up on my screen and was like, you know what? If I'm gonna do it is now
Ben Clymer . But I'm just curious, like the the perception of Germans making watches. Uh how how how was that? I I've heard certainly not you, but but others kind of say there was uh uh like a loose skepticism that that they would be able to produce something that that could compare to to what what the Swiss were able to to do. Well
Max Büsser look, I don't have to teach you that Swiss are like the biggest knobs in the universe. So uh you said a diamond come on. So and uh and Swiss and watch industry. Oh my gosh. And um and so um it it's uh yeah, I mean it was more just people very curious but didn't expect it to work. And it also worked not only because the product was amazing in design, concept, and movement, but because he created a manufacture from scratch, in the middle of nowhere. Today it would be very complicated. Then it was it was
Tony Traina magic. Can you talk a little bit more broadly about the energy in the Swiss watch industry at the time? You mentioned being friends having lunch with brigade, Blanc Pond, and people have rediscovered this era recently. I just this morning we we've been passing around the Phillips catalog. There's a Phillips catalog of 80s and 90s watches, uh, you know, uh from all of these brands, JLC and some of the other ones we've been talking about included. But can you talk more broadly about what the energy was like at the time? And did you guys know you were doing something that would be appreciated by a future generation or were you just doing whatever you could to stay alive
Max Büsser ? The early 90s was very much staying alive, uh not the John Travolta way. Um it was very much um just try to s try to survive. And I think by ninety four uh we started seeing the the the the light at the end of the tunnel but the whole industry was growing everything was growing so everybody was doing better and better and therefore there was a camaraderie, which was pretty amazing. And so we we were all rediscovering the archives. And what's interesting is if you look at the 90s watches, we didn't copy-paste. What we're doing today in 2024, which is copy-paste, we didn't do in those eras. We tried to create something which was contemporary with our vision of contemporary, of course, in those days. And um, and so everyone had its own aesthetics, its own way of seeing the world, but they were not copy-paste of fifties and sixties watches. And then, of course, you arrive at the end of the 90s, and there's this beginning of this whole new other world, which is cont what we call it contemporary watchmaking, with I'm gonna say the missing link is a little bit the for me is the Vianne Halter Antiqua. And then you have the freak, of course, Orwerk with the 103, um, Richard Meal, uh, and and you start having at the beginning of 2000s a whole other story start. But the 90s was was a really nice era. I remember every Basel World, it wasn't yet called Basel World, I think it was called the Basel Fair.
Tony Traina The common perception nowadays is we have on the one hand a lot of creativity in small independent brands, led, if I may say, by MBNF and perhaps a few others. And then on the other hand, oftentimes there's a perception, at least, that it's not the same at large brands. There's a lack of creativity of innovation, whatever it is. I I'm wondering if you perceive or feel the same dichotomy uh in in your observations of of where the Swiss watch and Swiss watch industry is at right now
Max Büsser ? Uh it depends on the brand. Um take a brand like Bulgary, which is arguably a big brand, and comes out with two to four calibers a year and some pretty cool and innovative products every year. And there are others which basically go back to their archives and reproduce the pieces but with modern calibers. I think what didn't help is the last 10 years of going back to vintage. And when you have a heritage, it's it's a no-brainer. You go back to your archives and you relaunch. The independents don't have that luxury. It's not that I want it. They clearly don't want to come out with my HM1 again. But um you or HM2. Yeah, or HM2 clearly. Uh HM3 is cool. And um and so um so we when you're a big brand which has a heritage and all it has to do is go back to its archives. We don't really have an incentive to innovate too much. So let's not be too tough on them. But there are some who are um much more innovative than others. And look, face it, I feel like saying it depends on I'm gonna make a lot of friends again, it depends on um how powerful your CFO is. What I mean is that if you're a billion dollar a year company and you come out with one caliber every two years, you can't have that caliber sell only a hundred pieces a year. You're to gonna have have it make a sell at least 10,000, 15,000, whatever. I don't know how many you're gonna make. And so your necessity to amortize and have big revenues based on whatever you come out with won't allow you to take too many risks. So if you can if you can basically put your CFO in the cell andar close the door, you will have
Tony Traina more creativity. Ben, as someone who got started in the vintage world as much as any, but latched onto things like the HM two pretty quickly, any additional perspective on on the matter
Ben Clymer ? There's a lot of things that I think Max and I would probably like to say that we can. But you know, I think there, look, there are people that are doing amazing things. Obviously, Max included, Rechep. I mean, Rechep worked at at PadTech, right? Like he came from one of the great brands and he's doing amazingly innovative things. I think there are brands that definitely rest on their laurels, and I think there are other brands that are doing really interesting things. And I think the the one of the there's a few frustrations that I have as kind of like this um, you know, liaison between the people like Max that are really creating and then the the community at at large. And uh I'll I'll run down two of them. One of which is that that money is bad in the watchmaking industry. And when you look at Gunterblumline and you look at what eventually became Richhmond, without people like that, Gigere, Vachron, IWC, Lange, et cetera, basically don't exist. And Max, feel free to disagree, obviously, if I'm saying anything out out of out of line here. Um and then you have LBMH, of course, doing kind of similar kind of roll-ups. And again, you can you can criticize the idea of large conglomerates, etcet.era But I think that it's indisputable that without groups like that, luxury and the watch baking that we know it today doesn't exist. Longe doesn't isn't able to make uh a datagraph caliber without the investment that comes with with with large kind of corporate entities behind it. Agree that there needs to be controls, obviously, with with CFOs, et cetera. And then the other thing is like I'm I'm really thinking of Pattech and AP in particular, you know, a common kind of statement that's met that that's said on Instagram and in our comment section is that you know AP is just resting on their laurels and making the royal oak over and over again. Okay, yes. That from from a case design perspective, there's a lot of royal oaks out there. But when you look at the calibers of like the RD two, RD three, the all the RDs bas,ically, the concept stuff that they've been doing for 30 years now. You know, this is really innovative stuff. And I think it's frustrating from my vantage point, seeing a larger part of the industry that people don't recognize what it takes to develop a caliber, which is a non-sequitur of some sort, but I would ask Max, who has developed calibers, like, what does it take to make a new caliber? And when AP says, hey, we're gonna do, you know, the the thinnest self-winding uh flying turbulence with the with the RD3 um or whatever. What what what type of um what type of investment is required? What is needed to make that happen? And then does a brand like AP, as an example, need to do that stuff? Clearly not, right? Like they could put a courts, they have put a a quartz movement in royal oak and still sell them just as well. And so how do you view as somebody who's making this stuff the idea of like resting on laurels uh and then the idea of innovating with with a caliber
Max Büsser . Well, first of all, I have to agree with you that AP has been an incredibly innovative company, caliber wise, for sure. And it's true, just because they often put them in royal oaks, um, we we we dismiss them too too easily. Look, for us, creating a caliber is a three to five year process. And we come out with one every year. So you understand my life is a layer cake, de facto. And it's it's millions and millions of dollars. Now, when you create when you're a small company who's ready to create a caliber on only craft 25 a year, you will do everything in CNC and you will adjust manually. And so your cost of your caliber is humongous, but you can go much faster than if you're a brand trying to make 10,000 of that same caliber a year. Because there you're going to actually have tons of toolings made to stamp parts out and just do the toolings was cost you a couple mil but it takes a lot of time and basically to industry when you do 5,000, 10,000 of the same caliber every year, you industrialize it, and that takes way more time. Then of course your cost of your caliber is much lower because it's been industrialized. Um so us small independents tend to be able to be more prolific because we can go faster, but our costs are exponential of manufacturing. Uh and it's it's a it's a trade-off I'm very, very happy to to to have. I have no problem with that
Tony Traina . Another sort of recurring theme I hear when you talk, Max, is the idea of risk taking and challenging yourself and if you start to feel comfortable, you feel bored. Uh this is coming off of the question or it's coming off of what you just mentioned there three to five years in advance is is how far out you have to think of calibers. But I'm curious what you're doing now in terms of risk taking challenging yourself or your company MBNF uh now to keep yourself sort of excited and engaged in even 20 years on
Max Büsser . I I have to credit Michael Tyha, the owner of the hourglass, who in 2018, in a meeting in Singapore, looked at me and said, You're becoming predictable. And that single phrase, which honestly I hated it on the moment, and I thought, how dare you? Um has uh has has saved me because maybe I had gone into a into a cycle. I think all of us creators have a first 10 years of our brand where we churn out all these crazy ideas we've been which have been pent up in us. And then there is the danger that you start uh evolving, copying yourself, etc., etc. And I didn't realize that. And I have to thank Mike for that because he really gave me an electroshock. And from there, a lot of things came out. Um the HM eleven architect, which we we released uh last year. That was really okay, stop going back to your childhood sort of thing, grow up. Um the mad one, of course, which I designed and I had the courage in 2021 to come out with it, but also all sorts of new concepts you're gonna see coming out from next year onwards. I had a basket of projects which just didn't fit. And I thought my brand is already complicated enough. We've got horologies, legacy machines. Now we've got mad editions. There are clocks which are co-creations, there's performance art, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, I can't do an elevator pitch on MBMF. It's impossible. And and so um I had all these projects which were not none of all that. And the the the the success we started having in the last three years, uh the demand may be suddenly there when for 16 years we were we were running around the planning saying, please try and buy one of my watches, um that gave us the courage now to come out with products which you really don't expect. And they're not HMs, they're not LMs, you don't even know what they are, but they're cool and they're really things which we we really in love with. So so I I I feel like saying that um I think success is very dangerous, and you may have already heard me say that. It it leads usually to taking less risks, being less creative, and we have used this as a springboard the last three years to have the courage to come out with all sorts of new ideas that uh we didn't dare to do before. So uh keep I'll I'll keep you posted
Ben Clymer . Can I ask a question? Um so many years ago, I would say probably I would guess 2016-17, you and I had breakfast together in New York. Anyway, I think it was just after the launch of LM1 or one, it was probably 101. It was two 2014. LM 101. And I said, man, like if if I was gonna buy a modern MBNF, it'd be the LM 101 because like you know, you know me, like I'm wearing a cashmere cardigan right now. Like that just that's my aesthetic, you know? Um and you said, Okay, I I get that. you You are one of the few and in fact I think at the time the LMs, the ones and the one on ones weren't selling that well, and your advice to me, or just a broader statement was that the HM watches I I guess my assumption was that because I thought everyone was like me, which is clearly thank God not the case, that the LMs would be doing exceptionally well because they're round, they're more understated, they're the traditional watches, whereas the HMs are fucking crazy, right? Like these are nutty things. These are supercars. And you said it's actually quite the opposite, or at least back then. The HMs are so different than everything else. If you want one of these, there's nowhere else to go. Okay. Or work, maybe, you know, something like that. Groupable, maybe. Uh, but for an LM, okay. If you want to finally finish watch by Kari, you can go to Kari, you can go to Fleep 24, you can go to PatTek, you can go to Longa. And then all of a sudden it seemed like things changed and the LM started to kind of take I wouldn't say take over, but really became very, very collectible. Uh and demand went up and they started selling for above retail. What happened to to you or what happened in the market to to make that that shift from the crazy HMs being, you know, the hot MBS to the LMs being so so so special.
Max Büsser I actually don't know. I was a spectator uh looking at what was happening. Um and you're right. Um our biggest historical flop, apart from HM5, was LM101. Meaning it came out in twenty fourteen. And from twenty fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, we couldn't give them away. I was very lucky. Exactly. There's a little website one to do to do 10 pieces of like yeah, take them. And uh and so and honestly, I'm I'm not joking. We couldn't we couldn't sell 20 or 25 a year. Uh you can ask Laurent Picoteau, any of our historical retailers. Laurent had them in stock for like five years and he was telling me, Can you buy them back? I just can't sell these damn things. And um and then 2020 arrived, and suddenly everybody's like, How can I get an LM one oh one? And we were looking at these people going, Where were you guys over the last six, seven years? And yes, then it became massive waiting lists and and over pre with premiums, etc. Again, I think it's a good example that you should never create a product because you think it's gonna work. You should create a product because you love it and don't care what the trends of the market are. And maybe with a bit of luck, it will sell. And maybe it will only sell in six years, like LM101, which took six years. That's a long time. And the only reason I kept it I, kept producing it is I just couldn't amortize the humongous RD of that of uh of a movement, of that particular movement, all our movements. So it's true that up till 2020, I think at the best, legacy machines represented 30% of our revenue. And then there was sort of a shift, a tectonic shift, where from 21 onwards, everybody wanted legacy machines. Also, we we didn't come out with that many HMs anymore. There was not that much choice. So uh we also made it that at some point, uh, if you wanted an MBNF, you were going to more or less gonna have to buy an LM at some point. And now we're the shift is going back a little bit to H
Tony Traina M. Can you talk a little bit more about how you've managed growth at MBNF over the duration of of its existence. You kind of very famously did not incr increase production for for quite a while. And then as you're kind of mentioning here, the reached an inflection point where you just couldn't hold back the demand anymore and and uh changed your philosophy and then now we're kind of back to where we were in twenty thirteen. Can you just kind of talk about that that perspective
Max Büsser ? So yeah, I I had this. I didn't have a business plan when I launched the company. I just had an Excel spreadsheet, which told me that I didn't have enough money by far. And where my dream on that Excel spreadsheet was to at some point arrive at about 300 watches a year for about 15 million Swiss francs revenue. And we hit that in 2013, which was the same year my first daughter was born, the revenue stayed flat. Then 2020, 17th of March 2020, we send everybody back home in lockdown and we think it's the end of the world. And by June, we realize it's not the end of the world at all. On the contrary, suddenly everybody's asking to buy watches. Like, really? And um, and the demand started becoming humongous. And there I think the worst reason to grow a company is because you you can. We didn't want to, we kept on saying no. And um at the same time started the whole project of what happens if something happens to me? How does this company survive if I pass away and I hope not survives but thrives. Why? Because I started losing some friends. Heart attacks, cancers. And we were I'm I'm fifty seven, I mean that's supposedly young. Uh but you I started thinking of that. And um and of course there was no more inventory of any MBNF than any of our retailers. And they all had massive waiting lists and they all came back to us going, how can I get more? And I said, no, you're not. No, no, no, no. How can I get more? Oh we're not. We're not we're not making more. And then one of them came back and said, um, if I open a boutique for you, you on Rodeo and I pay for everything, can I get more watches? And then you're like, oh, oh, oh,. may Mabeybe that's one of the keys of making that this brand can survive me. That it's not only a persona to persona brand where we had a few multi-brands retailers who had one showcase which was empty. Uh, we need to have a maybe a bigger presence. And in a way, even though we don't grow our business, it becomes a brand. And then Michael Tay did the same on in Singapore, Laurent Picciotto in Paris, etc. And we had to up our production. So over 2020 to 2024, we more or less increased our production about 30 to 40 watches more every year, which was incredibly difficult. And in so basically until 23, sorry. And in 23, we did 419 watches. And already in Jan 23, we said, okay, for the next four years, we're not growing anymore. That's it. That was that was difficult enough. And uh we we need now the the dust to settle and for us to uh to be able to to manage this with the quality we we need to give our clients. So now it's the plan is for the next four, five years, whatever the demand is, is no growth
Tony Traina . What's the hardest part of being an independent Swiss brand today
Max Büsser ? For the first two decades to the from the two thousand to two thousand twenty was clearly to be heard. And to have a voice which would be heard and people would resonate on say, well, Langtony was horribly tough for all of us. And um since twenty twenty, clearly the demand is there. Our issue now is it's always been, but it's become much more critical, is uh on the manufacturing, on the artisanship, on the uh subcontractors. Um we were one of a handful of watch brands which still uh hand finished every movement and still do. And actually, most people don't know that. So um now it's become more complicated because it's become more fashionable to hand finish. And it's a good thing. I'm very happy, by the way. But the amount of artisans capable of doing it are the same, but the amount of smaller brands or even sometimes larger brands who want to do some special pieces hand finished have increased. And that's one of our many, many bottlenecks. The other one is RD engineers. Um we're still desperately looking for the engineers. Um we've got so many ideas and just not enough. Uh we we don't have enough people to uh to engineer what we have in mind. Um and that's not easy because we're in an industry which um a lot of brands have been very evolutive and uh so we we take that good old 11 and a half line movement and we make it evolve. And we're not into that world. We're into completely creating from scratch and pretty wild uh mechanical uh movements. So it's not that easy to find the the people who can do that also. So I I think that's
Tony Traina our biggest issue today. Earlier you alluded to the idea of succession and this kind of brings me to some of the most recent reasons that that MBNF was was in the news over the summer that Chanel had taken a minority investment stake in your company. So I'm wondering if you could just talk a little bit more about why now and then why Chanel
Max Büsser . So exactly what I was telling you, um, turn of the twenty twenties, starting to understand and it was really a project that we discussed with the whole team. How does this brand survive mean? So we we started changing a lot of things internally. And um there was one issue which I couldn't wrap my head around is succession itself. Now I'm 57. My two daughters are seven and eleven. I have no idea if they'll want to work in the company, and I've no idea if they'll have any talent, which sort of statistically is a pretty is a pretty daunting uh perspective. And it's a 20 euro gamble because you don't put a 20 year old at the head of a company, already if you put a 30-year-old is pretty rough. So um I will know in about 20 years if they want to join the company and if they're good enough. And I will be close to 80. Do I want to gamble the future of MBNF on that? That would be completely irresponsible. So we started with Serge, who's my our technical director joined me 16 years ago and he had 20% and I have had 80%. Thinking we we need um we need a partner. And it had to be a privately owned company, uh, which has a very long-term thinking which overinvests which doesn't care about growth or profits and of course Chanel had had showed what they'd done they'd helped Romain Gauthier they'd helped F. Pigeon and we know from both of our friends that they're always there just to help. And uh it was interesting because two and a half years ago I we were they'd invited us at Watches and Wonders as we because our our folding buckles at MBNF for the last 20 years have been made by Chanel. And our HM1, two, three, four, five, LM1, LM2 cases were made by Chanel. Not by Chanel per se, but by the company called GF Châtelain, which is owned by Chanel and which makes all the J12s, etc. So we've known them for over 20 years and Serge used to work for them. So we've had a long relationship with her. They invited uh Serge and I to uh watches and wonders as they do every year to have a coffee. And uh during the discussion, they said, So how can we help you? I said, Oh, it's interesting that you're asking that question. Maybe you can help us. And so basically for two years we had breakfasts and lunches and dinners and we got to learn who we were and and discover what how what makes us tick and uh beginning of this year, um they said, look, if you guys want to go ahead, we're ready to go ahead. And we said, Okay. So um it's um it makes sure that if I pass away, my um my family who inherits the company, so now I've got 60%. So my family inherits 60%, they will not sell to the wrong company. We have a family owned business which is very long term thinking, which is there to help in case something happens to to me. And that's taken an enormous weight off my shoulder. So uh it's um I really sleep much better at night thanks to that. Uh it hasn't what's it going to change for the company? Absolutely nothing. Absolutely nothing. Um, they're a minority shareholder. And uh as I told you, I sold them a business plan with zero growth and actually less profit every year. And um, and so um uh they they may be able to help us in the whole ecosystem of manufacturing. I'm sure they can help us there. Um, but for the rest, uh, it's not going to change anything to the company
Tony Traina . Well, this is what I was going to ask. Maybe we can double-click on it just for a moment. Uh, from the collector and enthusiast perspective for for those that love the brand MBNF, anything in particular they can expect over the short or or long term from the brand that that might change or not really
Max Büsser ? Um well are we talking again of the Chanel investment? Nothing. That's not gonna change anything in the company. Uh or in the products. So no, I'm I don't it's gonna be a J twelve with BNF movement as there has not been a J twelve with the FP Jones movement, guys. And I've heard that. I've heard a lot of things in the last couple of weeks. They didn't even ask us what we're doing. And it was interesting because during the two and two years we got to know that was like, so what do you guys want? I know what I'm gonna the the company's gonna gain in this, but what do you want? And they their answer was always the same. We want to help you. Like, really? Do you want us to create a movement for you guys? Oh, thank you very much. No, no, that's okay. We don't need that. Oh, okay. Do you would you want us to come up with ideas? Oh, that's very kind of you, but oh no, no, no, we don't need but if you want to yeah sure um so it absolutely incredibly elegant uh they've been and um and uh and they've got a history of helping artisans and creators to um to basically in some cases survive. We didn't we were not in a toll in a survival mode, but uh in this case to uh for their succession
Tony Traina Max, the last question somet,hing we do with most of our guests, uh, is something cool on your desk. And I would be remiss not to ask you if you could show us something cool on your desk, uh, either a watch, piece of mechanical, kinetic art, anything else you've got lying around that that the listeners would would like to hear about.
Max Büsser Gosh, I've got so many things on my desk. I've got a I've got three um Diego Le Coultre eight-day um clocks, which I absolutely love all different colours, the green, the red, and the blue. Uh I have a nineteen sixties Pierre Cardin um super cool uh watch with the Jaeger. Those were Jaeger Kult movements in the 60s. Uh what do I have here oh i've got i've got my i love i love clocks i've got tons of clocks i've got an airmess eight day um weather station eight day uh mechanic clock and weather station which i love. And behind me, as you can see, there's a ton of weird stuff. I am but I am I've got my whole life of we
Tony Traina ird stuff around me. Max, we could keep going, but uh we're gonna have to let you go. Thank you so much for for making a a wonderful episode of hodin geek radio thank you all for listening thanks to vic otomanelli for editing and of course thanks to Ben Clymer for joining as well and we'll see you all again next week for another episode