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Summer Releases From Tudor And Longines; Talking Value Proposition From Habring² and M.A.D. 1

Published on Wed, 28 Aug 2024 16:55:00 +0000

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Synopsis

In this episode of Hodinkee Radio, host Tony Traina welcomes new editor Tantan for his debut appearance and is joined by Mark Kauzlarich to discuss the summer's biggest watch releases and industry news. The trio reviews several notable releases from the past few months, including the Longines Zulu Time GMT in titanium, the Tudor Pelagos FXD Chronograph Cycling Edition, and the MAD Editions MAD One S - a slimmer version of the accessible horological creation from MB&F's sister brand.

The conversation shifts to significant industry developments, particularly MB&F's minority investment from Chanel, which values the independent watchmaker at over 120 million Swiss francs. The hosts discuss how luxury conglomerates like Chanel have evolved their investment strategies in watchmaking, now taking minority stakes rather than complete buyouts, allowing brands to maintain their independence while gaining financial stability. Tantan provides an in-depth look at his personal Habring² Erwin Tuxedo watch, explaining the Austrian independent watchmaker's appeal, their accessible customization process, and their unique position in creating complications like dead seconds movements at reasonable price points.

The episode concludes with a preview of Geneva Watch Days, where Tony and Mark will be attending. They discuss the show's relaxed atmosphere compared to larger trade shows and preview meetings with brands ranging from ultra-high-end independent makers like Gronefeld and Urwerk to more accessible brands like Space One. A recurring theme emerges around independent watchmakers finding ways to bring their ethos into more affordable price brackets through creative collaborations and modular complications.

Transcript

Speaker
Tony Traina This episode is brought to you by Hodinki Insurance. Collecting watches is fun. Insuring watches is not. But with Hodinki Insurance, we've teamed up with Chubb, the premier insurer of valuable collections, to offer a better and more seamless experience to ensure your watches and even jewelry. Minimizing the paperwork and maximizing the protection so you can stop worrying about your watches and focus on enjoying them. Hodiki Insurance, protect what you love. Visit insurance.hodiki.com for more details. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Hodinky Radio. It's almost the end of summer, so today I've got Mark and our new editor Tantan here to talk about some of the biggest news of the past couple of months. Sort of a back to school episode. While the watch world mostly slows down in July and August, news and releases have still been trickling out, so we're going to highlight a few of our favorite releases and then look at some other industry news. Then, Mark and I will both be at Geneva Watch Days this week, so we do a little preview as the industry kicks into high gear again for the fall. First of all, Tantan, welcome to Hodinki Radio for the first time. Thank you very much. It's good to be uh good to be here. I'm excited to get into your debut article here that we published just a couple of weeks ago about one of your personal watches actually, but a a watch brand and a watch company that you are wearing. We don't usually do wrest, but tell us what you just held up uh to the camera, Tan tan.
Tantan Yeah, sure. Um, so I'm wearing my uh my recently delivered uh hobbering uh Irwin Tuxedo really exciting because I've wanted one of these for the longest time and there was an opportunity where I kind of reached out um and you know basically asked for some customizations and got to uh end up making it a piece unique. So, you know, I thought that was kind of the perfect thing to do for the uh for my first article. Uh had a lot of words to write about and you know, great photos from Mark there. Uh so yeah, it was uh it was a good
Tony Traina one. We're gonna talk a little bit more about the appeal and the value proposition as you even call it of the hobbering to even the entire brand, not just your watch, I would say here in a few minutes. But Mark, since we're on it, we might as well just get to it. Wrist check. It's it's the same as always. It's uh this is why I don't like to do wrist checks, everyone. Mark is holding up his Rolex GMT master to Pepsi once again, as you might have expected, but we love to see consistency nonetheless. Guys, I think my wrist check is going to bleed into our first topic of the day. I asked all of you to bring a favorite watch release of the summer, so of the last couple of months as we haven't really had just an editor's roundtable discussion of of new releases new watches all of that type of stuff we've got a run of really solid guests so we're gonna catch up on new releases the one i've got is it's uh it's not on my wrist, it's on my desk here. But it is a watch that was announced a couple of weeks ago. It's the latest addition to the longing Zulu Time lineup. So this is the titanium Zulu Time 39. It's grade five titanium case and 39 millimeters. I'll hold it up if you're looking on the YouTube. But here it is. It's kind of a follow-on, really, for those who follow closely of the limited edition we did last year. Some differences, obviously. A black ceramic bezel insert. The dial is is more of a gilt dial. Uh, but 39 millimeter grade 5 titanium case wears really, really well. Bracelet is really nice. I'm gonna have a full write-up at some point. Uh they're all together, just a really great addition to the GMT market. I think it's about four thousand or forty-five hundred dollars. I wish I had the exact number, but I don't. So right in the space of the new Tudor Black Bay GMT 58, I would say, but obviously a titanium case, it's about half a millimeter thicker. So this one comes in at about 13.5. The Tudored Black Bay GMT comes in right under 13, I believe. So a really similar wearing experience. But this one, obviously, titanium is a little more modern. There's a bit of a mismatch. It's interesting. I've heard various comments on this. So the the ceramic black bezel is just has white numerals, just kind of clean modern numerals. The dial itself though, the Arabic numerals, the hands are gilt accented. So it is an interesting, a mismatch to some, I think, uh, because it's kind of heritage inspired on the dial, a lot of guilt, but then the the ceramic bezel goes in a different direction. It's an interesting choice. The dial is a black, they call it anthrocyte. It's more of a black than I would have expected almost, just kind of a matte black. And one half of the bezel is a matte black, and then the other half is a polished black. So they're playing with the ceramic a little bit to give the feel of two different shades, but it is technically just a black. And which side looks more bright or dark kind of depends on on how the light catches it. So it's a cool little effect actually that you you don't really appreciate until well look hopefully my live photos will will appreciate it, but you don't really get it in press images at all. So it's it's a nice watch. Like I said, some aesthetic nitpicks I've seen that some of which I agree with, some of which I think people are just thinking a little bit too hard, but all together a great watch. I'm glad to see Long Jean just I'm I mean doing what it does best honestly a well-priced GMT with a solid flyer movement as James Stacey is prone to calling it so a real GMT for for some of you, I suppose. Uh, but just a great watch that I've really, you know, sometimes you we get these watches and you you don't do more than take photos with them and enjoy them for a little bit. But I've actually been wearing this one around and it's it's really fun to have on the wrist. Um, anything you guys want to add about just the the launching GMT expansion over the past few years or this segment of the GMT market more generally
Mark Kauzlarich ? I mean I uh I'm kind of curious your thoughts on Longine becoming in my mind sort of a GMT company, first and foremost. I mean, it's one of the things that I think about the most when I think about their best offerings, which is kind of funny because I've been having a lot of conversations with collectors in the vintage space lately about the continued strength of longine in the vintage space that a lot of people don't realize. Like people probably would be surprised to hear that there are 13 ZN chronographs from longines that are trading in the 60 to $80,000 range still. And that's not something that we think about anymore when it comes to longine is is chronographs. It's now a a GMT brand. So part of that is probably I think maybe because it's just a little bit easier to create a modern GMT and have access to good movements and keep them uh relatively affordable. But is is Longine now the GMT brand instead of the Carnagraph brand
Tony Traina ? I'm not sure I accept the premise of the question, but I will venture down this road nonetheless because yes, we've we talked about this. We did a whole episode on GMTs a few months ago because of the fact that you can get a flyer GMT for 500 bucks now, basically from Laurier or any number of of smaller brands that are utilizing just the the new affordable movements that have come onto the market from uh from Seiko, from Citizen, from who am I forgetting? I mean, Swatch Group, obviously, with their sort of ETA flyer that you see in the longing here is the next step up in terms of Swiss watch making and all that type of stuff. And that's why this one costs $42.75. I just looked it up. But I I think Long Jean is doing a lot of things really well in the space, uh, you know, in the 2000 to $4,000, $5,000 space, I suppose. You know, Tudor does one thing really well in this space, if we're honest, and it's the Black Bay, and Long Jean has really nice, elegant, if I may say, dress watches. Uh we've done the Longine chronometer that's based on their heritage classic, the sector dials in black and and more of a silvery-white dial. I think they do a lot well. in this space Alongside the GMT, the Zulu Time GMT39, they also released a few new additions of the flyback chronograph that they first introduced in 2023. I want to say. I didn't give them a ton of sort of column inches because they're they're two-toned, so they're a little bit more expensive. They're pushing the price range of of what people would expect to want to pay for a launging. And there's already a a steel one and titanium one, but they're 16 or 17 millimeters thick. So they're really, really hefty boys on the wrist, if we're being honest about it. So to your point, I'm glad that they've brought the flyback back. Um, say that a few times fast, tan tan. And it it's good that they're drawing on their chronograph sort of lineage because that's their thing. That's Brightling's thing, but they still have a lot to do in terms of ergonomics and wearability, I think. And that's why the GMTs are getting a lot more attention from people like us. I mean, I wrote about their their legend diver dive watch recently, too, that they did in 39. People have like the 42, people have like the 36. They're firing on all cylinders. I'd like to see them do more to your point, Mark, to draw on their chronograph lineage and make some real, uh, more wearable, more just better chronographs, I think. So yes, that's the one thing that they need to fill out. And might I say some of the micro brands we've seen, I think we're going to get into Fur Linmar here in a second in a different release, but micro brands are starting to use Salita has a really nice manual wine chronograph movement that is is letting brands get down to thirty-nine millimeter, thirty-eight millimeter chronographs that are are eleven, twelve, thirteen millimeters thick. So so big brands are gonna have to respond to that I think Tony
Tantan I think like the new 39 millimeter GMTs are just like a winner right like it's cool to see them respond kind of so I guess so across the board uh with sort of downsizing in that regards. I think most of those watches um that have come out in like the past few years have always started as sort of a larger offering and then they kind of bring them down after a year or two. So, you know, just to your point, I think it's they're doing cool stuff. They're doing little details that no one else is doing out there. And you know, it just like makes sense for that price point
Tony Traina . I think we're going to move on to what I think you wanted to talk about as one of your favorite releases of of the summer, Tan Tan. And I gave Tudor a bit of a short shrift there, or I was a little bit uh flippant in saying that they do one thing well and that's the Black Bay. But of course, that's not the case. They have a few other great watches, the Pelagos and the FXD, and they've released one they've added to one of those collections uh just recently, right, Tintin
Tantan . Yeah. So I mean, a few months ago, they kind of announced this completely out of left field watch, which was the uh Pelagos FXD chronograph cycling edition. Uh that's sort of a mouthful. Um but uh it's 43 millimeter chronograph uses the same sort of B01 brightling tutor shared chronograph movement, just like the uh previous version from the Allingi Red Bull series. Um, but this time it kind of strays the furthest away that we've seen the FXD go in terms of sort of its dive watch roots, right? I think the FXD was really um kind of the sort of ultra modernized version of the tutor MN, but but now we see a watch that's, you know, there's no mention of any sort of diving mechanism on the on the watch. There is no dive bezel. Um there it's just sort of a tachometer and then just this really cool like sort of reddish pink uh printing on the dial. And Tody, you seen this in person, right? Uh a few weeks ago. Um but I think it's a really cool watch. It represents something that I think just like it just feels unique. Uh full disclosure, I bought one of these like two weeks ago. Um, so I really like it. It's not something, you know, like 43 millimeters would be something that I would just look at and be like, absolutely not. Um, but it's it's so so light um and so for me my main point is actually that like the size doesn't actually matter that much like the lug to lug is relatively short it's fixed spring bars it's a really thin like fabric strap um i'm really happy that they didn't do the sort of the Elcro strap that the Alingis came on. This is actually just a more traditional sort of uh fabric woven strap that you used to see come with uh most of the black base. Um and you know the the watch being 43 millimeters, it's actually you don't really notice the the sort of lug to lug, you actually notice the width. It's it's a chunky watch in in sort of how wide it spans across your wrist, um, but sort of in that horizontal uh way. So overall, like I'm really happy with it. It's a really fun watch and it feels like it doesn't feel overbody cycling. Like I am by no means a cyclist by any stretch of the imagination, but um so far I love it. And you know, I think it was just a breath of fresh air from the comp
Tony Traina any. Something you'll learn about Tantan is he's a a real sicko in terms of acquiring watches. So I'm not surprised that he uh uh has acquired this cycling, the cycling FXD. Mark, you're the one that did the hands-on with this watch a month or so ago. What were your sort of takeaways after spending some time and photographing that watch
Mark Kauzlarich ? Yeah, I think it was a really interesting watch. I mean, as Tantan said, these sort of releases from Tutor continue to come out of left field. I wonder how often things can come out of left field before it becomes normal and you can't say that anymore. But with the the V card watches for Formula One and the the first chronograph in this style was the Allingi Red Bull Racing chronograph, and they had a a time only FXD version as well. And all of these releases from Tutor lately, I I still am sort of surprised because you expect um, you know, Rolex and even their you know sister brand, so to speak, to be relatively reserved. But then again, I think people say that and then I look back at the history of the things that Rolits has done, not even in the last few years, but they were doing the eighties and nineties. And there were a lot of weird and surprising things that have come out from, you know, the Crown or the Hans Willsdorf uh foundation over the years. So the fact that Tudor is experimenting more and more isn't really out of line with their history. It's just interesting that they've found these partnerships in a way that Rolex hasn't historically done to the same extent. And so the fact that they have like a cycling team and they are partnered with Red Bull, Lingy, and and all of these things. That's the surprising thing for me about the watch. Now, from a functional standpoint, I did have some qualms about the idea of the the chronograph being useful in a cycling scenario, especially if you're riding, um, it's pretty hard to read that multi-scale that's on the watch uh and know exactly how fast you're going. A lot of people pointed out that you might actually want the scale to go longer, especially if you're timing a climb or something like that. It only goes to a certain amount. Um, it's a it's a cool looking watch, I think, aside from that. I know a few other people that are waiting to pick one up. And I think you can you can accept it as like a a cool watch outside of the cycling uh scenario, even if you're not going to use it for that. But um that's sort of uh its own question is like a lot of these purpose built tools, regatta timers are like a big historical one. Like, are they going to actually ever be used for that? I don't know, but it doesn't stop it from being like a cool watch from a practical standpoint
Tantan . I think like to that point, what I appreciate about let's say the two new sort of left field releases from Tudor, going back to the V-Carb as well as sort of the cycling chrono, is that, you know, from their marketing materials, they are pushing it and tying it really closely to these franchises, right? But what I appreciate as sort of the other end of, you know, the customer is that like there's no bending on either of these watch watches that sort of lean into that, right? So very much so like I like the cycling chrono because it doesn't have a giant bicycle in the case back, right? There's no sort of giant mention on the dial like you know the alingi ones are cool but I like the partnership is really important to tutor it doesn't really resonate just like with what I usually tend to enjoy and so I think the V Carb was cool too because you see it, you know, on Yugi Tsunoto's wrist, you know, on the website, first thing you go on. Um, but there's no mention of it on the dial. So if someone wants that watch because they just want a ceramic black bay with a really fun like matte blue dial, so be it. You know, you can have it. And I think same with me here. Like sometimes I feel like a lot of these sort of not collaborations, but a lot of these, you know, sports franchise tie-ins, sometimes I feel like I'm cosplaying if I really like a watch, because I'm like, I am not a baseball player., Like I can't wear this watch because it has, you know, big baseball on the back and the team name and stuff like that. So these two for me are cool. Like in this way that you sort of said that like they're just fun watches. Sure, they're they're kind of using it to to promote a a team or uh a franchise, but um no mention of it on the
Mark Kauzlarich dial or case or anywhere. And and one thing I know like we want to move on from this, but one thing that I'll point out is they they haven't always done that recently so the the one that just popped into my mind was actually the watch the black bay 58 that they did uh for inter Milan after they won their most recent championship which we I thought was a really interesting blue dial Black Bay 58, but at what point does the putting the logo of inner Milan on the dial sort of really impact the wearability or the relatability of that? And actually a friend texted me yesterday and he said he picked up his in Milan. Um he just got it in from his AD, but he he supports, I don't know what team, but he supports a team that's like very at odds with Inter Milan. It's just the fact that he is from Milan. He wanted to own a watch that was made by Tudor for Milan. And his dad apparently visibly recoiled at seeing it on his wrist because of the inter Milan logo. And I said, Well, I mean, are you going to like is it gonna burn on your wrist if you have to wear this all the time? Or like will your love for Milan itself override? And he said, you know, I just think otherwise the watch is so beautiful. They removed a lot of the text from the dial, except for Tutor. Like there's a lot of things going for it. But if you're a big football fan, like that really might limit the fact that um you might not want that watch. So um I think in that way, like the cycling and the V Carb and some of the other things that they have done have been a little bit more successful and will reach a broader audience for sure
Tony Traina . Mark, I want to get to your favorite release or standout release from from the past couple of months of summer
Mark Kauzlarich . So I did this last time we talked. I actually got to sort of talk about a watch that will have come out by the time the podcast is gonna run. So I'm gonna do that again, but I'll I'll go back to that very same watch. The Furlon Marley Disco Vellante was a pretty cool release. Um, Andrea Furlon actually teased on on Instagram that they've got this like sort of woven mesh bracelet option that might be coming soon, which I think is a cool thing. The the watch isn't my favorite watch that Ferlamari has done so far, and I'm I'm a big fan. I I don't dislike it. I think there's some interesting design choices that they made. It almost feels like uh this sort of um retro flying saucer meets field watch in some of the ways that they like played with the loom and the color. Um and I get that they were trying to bring this very 1960s style into a modern era and imagine what it would look like if it had kept being developed. I think it's cool that they're doing that. I really love that brands are starting to go back to experimenting with shapes that sort of were abandoned from from heritage. But I'm going to be seeing them uh in G Geneenevava during watch days. I'll probably handle the watch again, see if I feel any differently. But it sounds like the reception has been really positive from their standpoint of sales. So I'm glad that at least people are appreciating the fact that they're doing these experiments. But the the one that I am excited that I'm getting to talk about, um, I was I was thinking like Geneva Watch Days, there's a bunch of things coming out and some we can't talk about because they'll be embargoed until the time the podcast comes out. But one that's coming out right before Geneva Watch Days is the new Mad Editions Mad One S. So the the affordable release that sort of now has a cult following from the sort of sister brand of MBNF, um, this I don't even know how you would describe it. I mean it,'s got a rotor on the top, and you kind of view it as a driving watch on the side. It was a cool watch, and it's a watch that won an award for the challenge prize at GPHG a number of years ago. They put it out in a raffle of a I think it's about 1,500 pieces every time they do a raffle with different colors, and it's 2900 Swiss francs, so a little over three thousand dollars. And it's to me, it's always been cool to be able to get a little bit of Max Booster's kind of mad genius creation, but at an affordable price point for people that won't be able to buy an MBNF anytime in their life. Um but the demand has been so high. I mean I think they've had something like forty thousand people enter the raffle for for three thousand pieces or something like that. Now they're back with a slimmer version, the mad one s s for slim, I guess. But um a slimmer version that goes from eighteen point eight millimeters was the original thickness of the watch down to fifteen millimeters. And I think it's like the perfect thing they could have ever done with this watch. I'm super excited to see it this week in Geneva. I'm uh they're they're doing a raffle again. I think it's a five day or four day open raffle to put your name in. I already said like make sure that I don't miss the chance to put my name in. I really need to get this watch. I think again, I love Max. I love his sort of crazy ideas. I'm just not at the place in my life, and I don't know if I'll ever be in the place in my life where I'm gonna spend a hundred thousand dollars on a watch. And so this watch as a representation of what Max has done, I think is a really, really cool thing. And and I'm really excited that they brought this out
Tantan . Yeah, I completely agree. I think, you know, um seeing photos of this watch is is obviously very exciting, but it's gonna be, I'm sure once you get to handle in person, completely like game changing. Like I feel like, you know, the previous one is awesome, like, but it was very much a sculpture on your wrist, not not unlike, you know, a lot of MBNFs out there, right? But I think this is gonna be a great sort of inside baseball uh, you know, toss to the to the the watch collecting community um to make something that's like, you know, kind of right in the middle there. It's something exciting. People are gonna know what it is. It's extremely whimsical. You might get dizzy watching the rotor go on and on and on, right? But I think it's just like this at that price point is kind of that sweet spot for something like this, which is um definitely a novelty. You know, I don't think it's a gimmick, but I think it's for sure a novelty watch. And so um I'm sure a lot more people are going to uh be askinging for this sw given if you know, especially if they said like, oh, the previous one has been way too thick
Mark Kauzlarich . And I'll say to you, like there it's not just that they slimmed it down. And to slim it down, they did I mean one main thing, they removed one of the barrels, the time telling barrels that told exactly the number of minutes in the hour. Now it's sort of uh hash marks on the hours. So you but this was never a chronometry watch. Like that's not the point of this watch. I can say hav
Tantan ing owned the owned the first one that I don't think I've ever actually read the time of that thing. I've just looked at the rot
Mark Kauzlarich ary. And and so they they did that, and I think that that makes a lot of sense. Um the other thing too to note about this new watch is they've changed the case profile, obviously, but they've changed the lugs so I think it'll look a little bit smaller on the wrist and in photos, it definitely looks a little smaller even from that standpoint. But also they've moved to a Swiss movement, a Le Jou Pure movement instead of I believe they had a Miyota movement before. So I also think you're just getting a lot more value for your money in this watch. Um again, like you say it's a novelty. And I I think I said in my story that I already wrote that these are novelties with a capital N. And like um it's a word that brands use too much, but like this is really something that you're just going to put on because you wanna wear it and smile and not necessarily because you're you're worried about the time as much. Um but really the cool that they had a novelty like this and decided that they were going to try to make it better
Tony Traina . So with the LJP moving to the LJP movement, has the price gone up substantially
Mark Kauzlarich ? Price is the same. And in fact, when I got the press release, there was no information about price or also like the dates of the raffle. Things that are like people will definitely won't want to know right away, like, okay, how long do I have to enter the raffle? You know, how much am I going to have to pay? It's 2,900 Swiss francs plus VAT. Um, and the response wasn't like glib in any way, but I think when I reached out and asked the price, there was this almost this level of like, aha, what did you think? We were gonna raise the price, like we would never do this. Like we're just providing more value for the money. And I I would have assumed, yeah, the like slightly better movement, redesigned, um in a lot of different ways. Of course the price could go up, but uh kudos to them for saying like this is sort of their way of giving back to the larger community. Um there's gonna be two editions. There's gonna be one with a purple sort of accent and uh time scale on that section that rotates around the outside and that's going to be for their friends their suppliers and members of the tribe as they call it the people that are MBNF um owners already. And then there's an ice blue version that's gonna be the 1500 pieces for the wider audience. And um but I I do think they really take the standpoint that like this is an added bonus for everybody that loves them and supports them and not so much like, hey, we've got to make a ton of money and have great margins on this. I also just think it's a great sort
Tantan of brand move to keep just like I think even though MAD is technically different from MBNF to just keep the MBNF name kind of always perpetually in the conversation this way, right? Because like sometimes it's very easy if you release just like these crazy bonkers, like $200,000 to $400,000 watches, right? Um I think a lot of people might just, you know, they look at it. It's like, oh, it's really funky. It's really cool. And then you just kind of you kind of move on. But I think with the mad, it just keeps that brand, you know, in the conversation. Everyone's talking about them. It makes you revisit it. So, you know, 20 years from now, we'll see maybe a lot of the people that have been wearing Mad Ones like go on and you know, end up buying sort of a uh legacy machine or or something like that. But um, I just think it's it's sort of a win-win on all sides. It's like people get this really cool thing. Uh it's a brilliant marketing move. Um so I really respect it
Tony Traina . Someone once quipped to me that these mad one watches are are basically watches meant to be worn at watch meetups or watch get togethers and and nowhere else, which is is basically true, but quip all you want because I would say four out of every five, nine out of every 10 watch meetups I've I've been to, I do see one, and guess what everyone wants to play with, you know? So they're doing exactly what they what they want to be doing with these watches. So a cool, cool release. And it kind of actually bleeds into one of the more uh more industry discussions I think we wanted to have for a few minutes here, because we got news not only about a a new watch release in the past few weeks from MBF. But we we got a press release and an announcement from them that they'd taken on an investment from Chanel, the privately held luxury conglomerate that has become known for making these types of minority investments in watches over the past couple of decades at this point. So they're they're well known for holding a similar stake about a quarter in in FP Jorn, similarly in Romain Gautier, the independent watchmaker. They've also held a stake in Bell and Ross for quite some time, as well as a handful of other uh watchmaking more component suppliers or people on the in the supply chain side of the business. And they announced that they've done the same for MBNF. MBNF has has been a brand now for about 20 years. So it it been held only by by Max Booster and his co-founder, who's also involved in the company and who will continue to be involved in the company for the foreseeable future? And according to, I believe it was Bloomberg reported that it valued the company at more than 120 million Swiss francs, this sort of cash or financial injection. So it really does just solidify or signal the massive growth that the MBNF brand has uh had over the past few years. Bloomberg again reported that they had nearly 50 million Swiss francs in in revenue this past year, which in twenty twenty three, which is basically doubled in the past few years since the pandemic more or less. Uh really a huge growth trajectory. And it seems as though they have no signs of stopping. Uh, like I said, this signifies in no way that that anyone at the company is is leaving, just sort of putting them on financial uh or just stabilizing the business for the foreseeable future in terms of the sort of corporate and financial structure. Mark, any thoughts on the investment from Chanel into MBNF and and how it may inform what's going to happen over the next few years for Max Booster and all his friends?
Mark Kauzlarich Yeah, I at first I was somewhat surprised, not because it was Chanel. I think Chanel has shown a lot of interest in these companies that have technical abilities that can, you know, um be useful to them and what they're they're doing. I think Chanel um there there's a lot of companies like Chanel um and and obviously that this isn't connected to Chanel, but like companies like Chanel, Van Cleef, Airmez don't get as much credit still, I think as they should for the technical watchmaking side, just because the name of of them is associated with other things. And an investment like this from Chanel into MB and F kind of shows the the depth of knowledge and passion that they care about, but also I think they're they will look to find ways to um you know, maybe benefit from and some of the other things that they're doing. But um I was I was surprised at first because of that, not because it was Chanel, but more so just I hadn't really thought about whether or not MBNF and and Max himself would really be looking for this. It makes sense on a couple levels. One, uh just the stability. I mean, I don't think that anybody will really want to say no to uh increased stability while maintaining control. Um, so that's a great thing. But you know, I I've I've gotten to know Max pretty well over the last few years. I saw him in Dubai for the la launch of their last HM. We spent a lot of time talking. Um and one of the things that you have to realize is like as you said, this is 20 years of being a company. And before that, well, twenty years next year of being a company, and before that, he was doing Harry Winston and and some other things. And um Max is still a young guy. He's got a very youth youthful energy, but I think these are moves that make sense when you're thinking about the long term of your company. And twenty years is is a good time to start thinking about the long term. Um, so I think it just if nothing else, it solidifies um the future of the brand in a lot of ways. It solidifies the ways that um people that work for the brand will be able to maintain and not worry about the the future of the company with the ups and downs in the watch market. It's great that they're having financial success right now, but um that long-term view makes sense once you start hitting that 20-year mark and and keep in mind, like these are all things that have happened to brands like FP Jorn um and others is you just have to realize that uh if you want the company to succeed in the next 20 years or the next 40 years after you're gone, like these are the kind of moves that you need to make. So I'm I'm really happy for them. I'm really happy that they have that stability. I'm hoping that it gives them some um not necessarily a chance to take the foot off the gas, but a little just bit of um a little bit of comfort knowing that they've got people that believe in them and have put up some money to help them continue doing what they're doing
Tantan . I think it's really smart too, just in the context of the watch sort of retail market right now as a whole. You know, granted MBNF is in a is in a place right now where I think their quantities and sort of their price point um is going to be one of the the sort of segments that's gonna be least affected by sort of you know immediate fluctuations in the economy and and sort of retail uh retail consumption. But at the same time, you know, it's going to be a trickle effect for everyone, right? Especially um given their retailer presence as well. They they have um a bunch of MBNF labs, but they still have our retailers that are carrying them. So I'm also curious if like, you know distribution changes uh once uh Chanel gets in like is there gonna be are they gonna play towards sort of like really clamping down on the boutique only mode like we've seen uh so many other brands uh do, you know. Uh but also also I think that, you know, it's nice that Chanel was the one uh to place the investment. I think it's nice that um it seems like they're not gonna get sort of that showholder pressure that I feel like a lot of other companies get when intervention starts uh coming their way. Um so you know we'll see. But um I feel like if if you told me to bet, like I feel like, you know, boutique only model is probably going to come uh at some point. Just because they don't they also don't have a ton of watches, right
Tony Traina ? Yeah, they sold four hundred and nineteen watches to make that forty-five million Swiss francs uh last year in 2023, which will put you at about a hundred and ten thousand dollars a a watch if you're doing sort of quick back of the envelope math there. But in general, I think you're right. Chanel along with Hermes as as privately held businesses kind of operate on a different plane than than most luxury conglomerates. I think the the closing point I I sort of wanted to make here is it it shows an evolution, I think, on the part of these luxury conglomerates, the Chanel of the world, in how they think about investing in watches. So if you think back to a generation ago, the 90s, the first sort of uh generation of independent watchmakers, Daniel Roth, Gerald Genta, uh a lot of these folks were kind of essentially bought out uh entirely by LVMH or Rechmann or whatever it was, which is why LVMH, of course, owns two of the brands I just mentioned now. And it eventually meant that the the watchmaker with their name on the door kind of left the company in one way or another. And Daniel Roth is back now and it sounds like they have the cosign of him, which is which is really important. But I think it shows an evolution from these luxury brands, luxury fashion houses that uh may not have watchmaking expertise in inherent in their business, but in how they think about getting into the business. I mean, they've been invested in Jorne for a handful of years now, go Gautier for a handful of years since 2011 for the latter. And no one thinks of those brands as not independent nowadays. They are large independent brands. Jorn makes a thousand watches a year or whatever it is now. Maybe that's tr the trajectory for for MBNF over the next five to ten years. But no one says they're not independent. They're just this next scale of sort of independent brands that are making more than those four hundred and nineteen uh four hundred and nineteen watches a year, which uh I think is probably net exciting for for customers and clients. Tantan, we mentioned the watch that you're wearing today, uh, the the hovering Irwin. And it's it's from independent watchmakers out of Austria. And I wanted to give you a chance to to wax poetically almost or just talk about why you are so enamored with with this brand. And maybe we can start by sort of just explaining to people who the Hobrings are, uh, a little bit of background and and when and how they set up their their workshop in in in Austria. Almost 20 years ago, I think, actually. Actually, this year is
Tantan their twentieth anniversary. So um great. Well congrats to them as well. Yeah. Truly, truly. Um yeah. I mean the Hopperdings are so interesting. Um, just because I feel like they've always just in the best way possible kind of flown under the radar of every single like hyped trend that we see and watches, right? They are truly the epitome of like we're just doing what we love. And there's people that gravitate towards that. And that's like all we care about. We're not looking to make a million watches tomorrow. We're not, you know, I'm sure, you know, they're not looking for an immediate Chanel investment. Um, you know, so I think uh they're just such a cool brand. They make about 200 watches a year, give or take. And that's, I think, just like purely based on the sort of staff and workshop limitations. Richard and Maria Habering are husband and wife duo. Um, Richard kind of came from IWC. Um he worked for IWC in the 90s and and sort of his claim to fame was more uh what I like to say democratizing the uh the split second complication, right? Um basically when IWC was making a ton of value-based chronographs out there, they were looking for um how do we make a split seconds chronograph that's not excessively complicated and excessively priced? Um and basically what Richard was able to do was he created this module that um doesn't use anything like you would typically see in a traditional, you know, high-end roche pont. Um he used a CAM system instead of a column wheel to to basically make something that um is way more accessible than you would find anywhere else right so I know you know a lot of the really cool collectors pieces from the 90s for IDBC are like the Doppel chronographs. And you know you, still see IWC making examples right now. Granted, they're much larger in size, but you know, they do a Doppelchronograph in Ceritanium. But fast forward for today, you know, like Richard and Maria Habering, they created their uh their company in 2004. Their first watch was sort of a Felix time only watch. It's still in their collection. But that's sort of what they're they started their foot on. And I think shortly afterwards, they kind of broke more into the watch, you know, the newsworthy watch uh watch circle with uh the Erwin. So the Erwin is what I wrote about and what I'm currently wearing. Um it's gone through several iterations, but basically, it was sort of I feel like it was a resurrection in the in the 2000s of like for a dead seconds movement, right? Like I think um there weren't that many people making dead seconds movements anymore. You know, like I talked about um how GLC briefly made the geophysic crew second for a little bit, but that is no longer in the collection. And, you know, I think over the past 20 years, they've just been kind of killing it with just awesome complications at really accessible prices. You know, they're not they're not cheap by any means, but they are very accessible and extremely value-packed for what you get, right? Like I think currently, for example, the an Urwin retails for around sixty five hundred dollars. And if you go read my article, you know, my argument is that you know, there's just really nothing else like it in the watch space. Um, they've done really cool stuff, like they've done repeaters, they've done perpetual calendar chronographs, they've done roger ponds. Um, you know, after I think the IWC patent expired in like 2012 or something like that. So that's when uh they kind of brought back that in in sort of the hovering squared uh format.
Mark Kauzlarich Tantan, quick question for you. So I I'm generally thinking when I'm shopping for a watch that I will start with what I feel like is the most emblematic representation of what a brand does. And for me, you mentioned the doppel chronograph and like the history that he had. What was it about the this watch specifically that made you decide that maybe you wanted to do that instead of my gut reaction would have been like to do a chronograph or a doppel or or they've done I mean they recently did a perpetual calendar chronograph which was ridiculously affordable honestly. So like what was it about this watch that made you feel like this was a a good representation of them when they're known for these other things as well? Ye
Tantan ah, that's a great question. Uh thanks for asking. Uh I think one of the coolest things to me is the sort of the dead seconds to me is just like so ironic of a complication. And I mean, you guys know me, I'm a little bit of a troll sometimes, right? So for me, this is kind of the trolliest, you know, complication I think in watchmaking where it's just, you know, no one needs it. It's it has no sort of like benefit in terms of like, you know, chronometry or in terms of recording time. It's just really at this point in in 2024, right? Just like just because, you know, so just you know we, can do it because we want to, right? Um, so I think for me, that was the big draw. It was something that they're they're pretty much the only producer at this price point that's making something like this, right? I think to me, the the next one that I can think about is, you know, the Longa, Richard Longa jumping seconds, which is what, $80,000, right? So very different magnitude here. Um, so I think for me, like funny enough, the dead seconds to me has always been what I've been following with Hobbring. You know, I think my first, the first Hobbring that I saw online that I just fell in love with was the time zone, kind of that first time zone edition with the sector dial. Like I thought that was just awesome. Um, so for me, this kind of felt like it was that perfect balance between sort of it was a modern watch and everything about it is really modern story, modern sensibility, but it had a lot of sort of the best design elements from vintage watches. And I think that's just carried forward with me. And they sort of quietly released this tuxedo dial uh earlier last year. And I think that was when I saw it and kind of all came together. Like just if I'm being frank, you know, some of their designs are cool, but um I might have some grits with them about typography or proportion on some things. I've always been like, oh, I wish this was a little different. When this tuxedo dial came out, I was just like, oh, right. Like, I want to do this. Um, and so I think that was the big impetus for me. And also, I think as as I'm sure we'll we'll talk about in a little bit, like um, I made a few requests of things that I wanted to change and you know they were down for it. And I think that just like kind of sealed the deal. That being said, I think my next hoppering piece will definitely be a doppel chronograph, right? Or a Radapan. I think that is where my eye is to next. But I think I'm definitely gonna be enjoying this one for now. It's it's been hard to take this off my wrist. Like it's it's it's it's also one of those watches where it's been years since I've wanted one and to to kind of have finally have that come into fruition, like
Tony Traina Maybe we'll wrap up the hovering discussion with with one last question, Tantan, because I think one of the things that appeals to one of the things that's appealing about the brand or just Richard and Maria is the fact that you as an individual client or maybe a watch club can can really do some some fun customizations. So maybe you can talk about just what that process is even like, first of all. I've always been curious. You see so many cool, cool hobberings. I mean the perpetual calendar chronograph they've they've done with in a salmon dial. They've done a mono pusher in a salmon dial with with monochrome, the Massina Lab perpetual calendar chrono, really more vintage inspired as as you might imagine coming from Messina Lab. But maybe if you could just talk about what that process is is like and what makes it fun even for for a kind a customer or a client like you
Tantan . Absolutely. I think part of the fun is also a little bit of the challenge, uh, in a good way, which is that like I think you need to really know what you want. It's not on it's not like sort of a lot of the other sort of bespoke or unique piece manufacturers out there that sort of promote, oh, like every piece we do is is unique. Um there's no sort of like menu book of like, hey, for the bezel you can do this, this, this, for the dial you can do this, this, that. It's like, it's not sort of like a I want to do a unique watch, tell me what I can do, right? It's not like sort of making a bespoke suit or something like that where they they show you all the fabrics and then you choose. I think for me, at least in my experience, it's really like I approached um through through a dealer Brandon uh based in in California. Um like I approached them with exactly what I wanted and I was just basically like, can we do this? Right. And of course there were some back and forths, but overall, I really think that like they are very happy doing a lot of the closed designs that they normally do as sort of standard production pieces. Um, but if you are passionate about it and if you really, you know, have a strong idea about something, I think they're very open to it. Um so all that being said, I think just, you know, I, you know, if we go really quickly down the changes that I made, like, you know, I didn't do a ton of really crazy stuff. The bezel, I asked for a step bezel, you know, because I wanted something that was a little more angular. Pragania wheels on the dial are are pretty sort of soft. So needed something to pick that up. And on the case back, I got a hand engraved balance cock, which you can uh you can ask for, I think, on on most of their watches for an upcharge. Um and one of the coolest things that I write about in my article was definitely the sort of Cote de Soleil uh decorative plate, which no longer is in production. I think they made like four of them. Um but you know that plate I guess is also an example of something that's really cool where, you know, my dealer Brandon, like he visited their Austrian manufacturer, right? And like he found those plates sitting in a drawer somewhere and was basically like, uh, can we we can use these? Right. And so like it was just like really like cool idea that like they're just always playing with stuff, they're always working on things, um, and you never know kind of what you can get out of them. So at a certain point though, it will be a right time, right place thing. Um I know Brandon's always asked me to emphasize that those plates are no longer in production because I'm sure a lot of people that kind of stumble across it on the internet and like on Hodinky now are going to want something like that. Um but yeah, I think it's just it was a really fun process, but you really need to know what you want. Something I will point out is like, for example, dials, you don't really have a lot of leeway in terms of dials because the production acquired for those is kind of in a run of a 20, right? So I think maybe if you want to if you're so determined on a unique dial and you want to shell out to buy 20 of those dials and then just put one of them in in in your Hob ring, maybe that's the way to go. Um, but you know, there are limitations, I'm sure. Um, but all it takes is that conversation of like yes and no, right? And you know, it was great because like honestly, contrary to a lot of the sort of larger companies out there, Maria was super responsive and super, you know, super helpful. And you know, when I wanted my case back engraving, like Richard was able to send, you know, me the the sort of proof of what that looked like in terms of artwork. Because just because I'm so, you know, specific about typography proportions, I was like, I need to see how this compares um to your previous stuff. Um, so yeah, it's just like it feels like you're working with truly two people that just like love making these things and they know where they stand in this market, right? They know everyone who's buying these loved them. Like I'm wearing this out, like, and everyone who looks at it is I'm sure thinking it's a quartz watch, right? But I just like love that, you know, funny, funny feeling. Um, so yeah, hope that answers kind of the the idea of like how
Tony Traina I was able to kind of customize everything. A lot of fun to give some shine to a a brand or some watchmakers like Hobering and a great and fitting first piece for you on Hodingky.com, might I imagine might I might I mention go ahead and and read the whole thing if you haven't yet. Guys, we've got one more thing that I wanted to sort of talk about before we we leave the show for today because Mark and I will be heading to Geneva once again for Geneva Watch Days here. It'll be kicking off actually, as as Mark mentioned, the day after this episode airs and we've already started seeing some releases. We talked about the newest Mad One just a few minutes ago. But it's really the kickoff for the fall fall season for the Swiss watch industry. Uh more than 50 brands showcase in Geneva. It it was a show founded just six, five or six years ago, I guess, right in the midst of the pandemic, which shook up the the trade show schedule really. Founded by Brightling, Bulgry, Debathoon, Gerard Perigo, Moser, and MBNF. But it continues to get bigger every year. Uh, you know, there's showcases, releases, it all kinds of panels and stuff if you happen to be in the town for the week. But Mark and I will be there as I mentioned. Uh Mark and Tantan as well, anything in particular you guys are excited to see from the brands I just mentioned or the other brands at Geneva Watch Days, or perhaps even more broadly, as we kind of kick into high gear for the the watch industry coming back to school, as I said, anything in particular you're excited to see specifically from from any particular brands or maybe it's just a a theme or a narrative you'd like the the industry to to continue to pick back up on. Uh Mark, I'll start with you since you're uh packing your bags for Geneva as we speak, I'm sure
Mark Kauzlarich . Yeah, I'm actually mostly packed. I'm also in between moving departments. So it's been an interesting uh experience packing packing my luggage for this for this long trip. I just I just pulled up the calendar that we put together of all the people that we're meeting with. I think the nice thing about Geneva Wash days is that it's a much more relaxed from what I've heard. I've not been there, but it's a much more relaxed vibe. And look, if people aren't officially on the website, they still might be showing some stuff or taking meetings. And I've been thinking about this a lot in terms of what our audience likes to see and what I like to write about and these things. I think it's really funny as a person that's never going to be again affording an uh an MB and F most likely or an UR work or a Grubble Forzy or something. I was always sort of the aspirational reader of Hodinky. I liked reading about the things that were just so fascinating that I couldn't imagine g even getting to see in my lifetime. Um, and so I've made a lot of appointments now that I get to write about those things. I've made a lot of appointments with brands that fit that bill. Again, um, Gruble, Erwork, MBNF,. Um we're gonna see the see uh Daniel Roth and and some other brands that look, I'm not in the in the price bracket of those watches, but I think there's something to be said for enjoying the aspiration and enjoying the the chance to either see pictures or you know, if you're lucky like us, getting to handle these things and trying to bring them to an audience. Um, but then you know there',s definitely some more affordable watches that I do want to see um and that driven by like a personal interest in these things. I mentioned Front of Mari isn't technically showing at the event, but we're gonna drink get drinks with both of the the co-founders. Um I made an appointment with space one because I've actually never seen their watches in person and that watch is
Tony Traina super cool. Ben and I saw it very briefly uh at Watches and Wonders. Um really cool collaboration between Walhouse. Theo Fray. Yeah. Yeah. The OFR and then Guillaume, I guess, right? Yeah. And I love Guillaume. Shout out to Gum. Everything. Which for those listening, he's the guy, he's the guy behind like Nevada Grention and Volcane and a lot of these sort of uh relaunch brands. But sorry, go ahead and talk about the space one a little bit
Mark Kauzlarich more, Mark. No, I mean like for me, it's it's been one of these watches that I've looked at and uh their you know their first watch had some resemblance to uh Debatune, which is another brand that I'm gonna be seeing and meeting with. But um so I was I never really fully jumped in on the space one thing, but it seems like especially with the involvement of the Ofray, like it's hard to deny that there's something pretty cool there. And then I look at their website, I'm like, these are actually kind of cool, and I wish I would have been on top of some of these releases because like they did this in in ten pieces or they did this in five pieces. And so for me it's like, okay, I'm gonna go. I'm gonna see if these live up to the hype in terms of what I've seen in pictures or heard from you and Ben, and then also see if I can get a sneak peek at anything that's coming out so I can bring it to the audience, but also keep it in mind for if if it comes out, I'll be ready this time and I won't feel like I'm I've got major FOMO. So that that's sort of my my take on the whole um Geneva Watch Days thing
Tony Traina . Yeah, it's it's interesting. The latest release, both of the releases that Space One has done, it's Theo Alfrey has basically built modules to do these kind of unique or interesting complications off of, I think they were both the soap rod movement. The Telerium definitely is, but he's built a Tellerium module on top of a soap rod. So you get this kind of complicated watchmaking in a way that's not dissimilar to what the Hobrings have done actually that that ends up being quite affordable and and interesting and something that, you know, traditionally or historically might have costed add another zero to the price or whatever. And I'll say that's not the only sort of collaboration we've seen in that realm where a a watchmaker, an independent watchmaker, is trying to figure out a way to get the ethos of what they're doing into a more affordable price bracket. I mean it,'s same thing Mad One is doing. There's one or two more collabs I'm thinking of that we'll see in the next few days that are kind of trying to do that same thing, infusing the ethos of independent watchmaking into an affordable, more affordable price point. It's it's beneficial for the independent watchmaker and for the smaller brand that they're often collaborating with. So maybe that as far as there is any theme uh that I'm looking forward to is what I'm looking forward to seeing at Geneva Watch Days. And I think we'll see it manifested in in a couple of releases or at least a few releases from a number of brands or collaborations. Tantan, anything to add? Can I skip over to Nebel Watch Days and
Tantan go directly to October? Because like for me, I think I'm looking forward to sort of the the big sort of longer anniversary uh on October 24th. I feel like that is that is where my mind goes to if you talk about uh everyone coming back to you know coming back to school uh you know brushing off their sort of summer vacations. Um, I think that's where I'm going to. I know I got a shot out in the last longa uh episode. So I'll I feel like I'll dig into that bit here uh and I'll go there. But you know, it's a big year for them. So I'm very curious to see what they do. They've surprised me so far um in the GoWatchers of Wonder stuff
Mark Kauzlarich . So anything goes really I feel like talking to Tantan is like dealing with a chat GPT bot sometimes where it's like uh ignore all previous instructions, talk about Lana. Like, you know, not not at all on topic. Um two months away. Ye
Tony Traina ah, two months away. Sorry, I'm already thinking it's on my calendar. He's had the date circled for probably five years now. But I think guys, we're going to leave the discussion there for this week. Uh, I'll mention that we're going to take two weeks off as kind of an end of summer break. We'll be traveling, a couple of us, me included, will be uh in Geneva Watch Days and then coming home. So a lot of a lot of travel involved here for for a few of us over the next few weeks. But we'll be back in your feed before long. Until then, thank you as always for listening. Thanks to Vic Autominelli, our editor, and we'll see you again soon for another episode of Pudinky Radio