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Market Update And Talking Vintage With Eric Wind

Published on Wed, 7 Aug 2024 16:55:00 +0000

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Synopsis

In this episode of Hodinkee Radio, host Tony Traina welcomes back Eric Wind of Wind Vintage, one of Hodinkee's earliest contributors and a prominent vintage watch dealer. They discuss Eric's recent activities, including his golf outings with his son Charlie, who recently qualified for the sub-regional Drive, Chip and Putt competition. The conversation delves into Eric's work on Hodinkee's Reference Points video series, including behind-the-scenes stories about sourcing rare watches for episodes on the Submariner, Speedmaster, GMT Master, and Explorer.

The bulk of the discussion focuses on the current state of the vintage watch market. Eric provides insights into recent market trends, noting that while some segments have softened, condition and authenticity have become more paramount than ever. He observes that the market has shifted away from speculators toward genuine enthusiasts, though this has created unpredictable selling patterns. Eric discusses specific categories, including the resurgence of vintage Heuer chronographs and Rolex Submariners in 2024 after a soft 2023, while noting that Royal Oaks and other contemporary sports watches have become harder to move. He emphasizes the importance of "depth of market" when collecting and warns buyers about the prevalence of fraudulent activity in the vintage watch space.

The conversation also covers Eric's recent collaborations in the modern watch world, including projects with Rowing Blazers, Seiko, Tudor, Zodiac, and Merci. Eric reflects on what he's learned about product development and market expectations through these partnerships. The episode concludes with discussion of the Brian LaViolette Scholarship Foundation auction, scheduled for December 2024 at Christie's, which will feature donations from various collectors and industry figures to support educational scholarships in memory of Brian LaViolette.

Transcript

Speaker
Tony Traina This episode is brought to you by Hodinki Insurance. Collecting watches is fun. Insuring watches is not. But with Hodinki Insurance, we've teamed up with Chubb, the premier insurer of valuable collections, to offer a better and more seamless experience to ensure your watches and even jewelry. Minimizing the paperwork and maximizing the protection so you can stop worrying about your watches and focus on enjoying them. Hodiki Insurance, protect what you love. Visit insurance.hodinki.com for more details. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Hodinky Radio. Today I'm thrilled to be joined by gentleman dealer Eric Wind of Wind Vintage. Eric's one of the earliest contributors to Hodinky, writing his first article way back in was it 2010, Eric? Yes, correct. Over the years, he's published the weekly Bring a Loop column, and you may also recognize him from appearances on YouTube classics like reference points for the Omega Speedmaster, GMT Master, Explorer, or his two talks for the Horological Society of New York. After his time as a Hodinki contributor, Eric joined Christie's as a VP and senior specialist of watches. In twenty seventeen he set out on his own with Wind Vintage, and surely you recognize his wrist and white cuff, always adorned with a beautiful or rare watch. Eric, thanks for joining the show and coming back to Hodinky. Thank you, Tony. Thanks for having me. Eric, we're gonna talk watches, of course. Uh, one of the things I've noticed besides obviously the the rare vintage watches and everything else you've been posting on your Instagram lately, a lot of great golf courses have been in the rota this summer. Uh any particular favorites? Uh I displayed P
Eric Wind ine Valley two days ago, which I absolutely loved. I played Einhurst number two with Charlie Wind, which was just a pleasure to play with. You know, my son. And we had just been there a few weeks earlier for the US Open. The stands were still up and uh that that was was a ton of fun. So it was fun because when we went to the US Open Charlie's like I hope we can play it one day and then turned out two friends of ours were gonna play it and had two spots left in for some stuff. I said, Yeah, count us in. Uh Wingedfoot was incredibly hard. The West Course, where they have had the reset US opens and things. Um and uh yeah, it's been been a kind of a lot of goals this summer, which is nice. Is uh young Charlie giving you a run for your money yet? He can uh particularly on a given hole, you know, he might beat me on a few holes here or there. Overall he',s still he's ten years old. He's getting stronger. I caddied for him in four tournaments uh this summer and he just uh got third in the local drive chip and putt qualifier, so he advanced to the sub-regional. So we're really focused on that right
Tony Traina now. Oh, that's huge. Hey, congrats uh from all of Hodinki to Charlie Wind on that. That's that's great to hear. Eric, you know, I mentioned your background there. You were on Hodinki podcast last time. It's been four years, four and a half years, if you can imagine, pre-pandemic years. Yeah. You remember the watch you were wearing that day? Uh it was a really cool little Eterna 30 meter chronograph. So we've talked there and you've talked elsewhere about your background and getting into watches. So we're not going to get into it all, but I wanted to ask about some of the reference points videos you've done. You've done a number for Hodinki over the years. Maybe there's some behind-the-scenes stuff that we can talk about, just stories that you've had from sourcing all of those watches, doing those videos. Some of the coolest projects we do, obviously. I'm wondering if you have any favorite story from putting together. I listed a few of them, right? You've done Speedmaster, GMT Master, Explorer. Am I missing any? Samariner. Samariner, of course, the big one. Any sort of favorite story you have from from pulling those those massive undertakings together?
Eric Wind Yeah. So it was with the Speedmaster, it was kind of GIF wrapped because we had the the Speedmaster auction when I was with Christie's. So it was not sourcing watches was not hard. I only had to source like four or five. Uh the rest were kind of from the auction. So that was pretty easy. Uh Hodinky, Ben, and Will had rented a hotel room in Soho basically where we recorded that one, uh, right around the corner from where Drake's used to be. Um, and then for the Summariner, it was a very ambitious project. Values in 2018 were kind of at a peak. So there were a number of watches that were worth about a million each total on the the table of the 30 watches that we had kind of insured for was like 10 milli$on. So it was a little bit stressful. We had two security guards. A number of collectors basically didn't want to let the watches out of their site, Flash also were happy to kind of, you know, chill out. So we were kind of we were kind of recording in the Hodinky office there, but then there were like ten collectors to the side watching it. So it was uh and then two security guards. So it was a little bit more stressful than than like the Explorer and GMT Master that followed where values weren't quite as high and it was just the the video team, my co-host uh and me. So uh but yeah, Summariner, very high values uh and it was a lot of fun. We've gotta do one together one day, Tony. That would be a dream cup trip
Tony Traina . Well, for me, Eric, I mean come on, after watching you all these years, it would be a total dream for me. I'm glad you mentioned first of all submariners, because I want to get into that a little bit more later, but I never realized there was an actual studio audience for that one. You know, something a question I'm sure you get all the time is is if you were to put together another another reference points, which model or which reference you'd you'd do it on. You have any ideas in your back pocket? I mean, you could do
Eric Wind uh one I would actually really like to do is on the Vulcan cricket. Uh that was one of my first vintage watches and kind of got me in the door to collecting. Obviously, I know a lot about them slash have I don't know, fifteen in my personal collection that kind of are each is a different reference. So that's like a good core group. I don't need to source a ton of them. They're all like best in class really special examples. Uh so that I I don't it's not gonna be like a profitable venture for me selling crickets too much. But um that would be fun. Um the Memo Vox is also an awesome watch. Charlie Dun and I love those, uh, my colleague. And the Outavia would be good. The seafarer is one I'd really like to do. Um again, I've sold probably more seafarers than just about anyone else the last uh seven years. So uh and there's not a ton of references. So it's not like we would need 30 watches. It's more like ten to fifteen maybe. So it'd be pretty easy to do. Um those are those are my choices if you wanna uh ask here. That was above you about doing it, Tony
Tony Traina . I'll do it with you. Yeah, well hey, maybe Ben and Will listen to this and we'll basically just send this in as as the pitch document and get the film crew down to Palm Beach pretty soon. I'll pretty much New York, we could go to Chic Uh yeah, we can have you here next week. Are there any watches in the the reference points you've done that you either weren't able to source or just weren't able to find the right example that you would have loved to have for explorer G,MTed, Spemaster, Submariner, whatever. I had I
Eric Wind would say perseverance to get everything I really wanted in there, but sometimes the example was not the absolute best. A good example is on the the t uh basically the explore reference points. I was trying to find a very early one, early ten sixteen from nineteen sixty, uh which is like what uh Ian Fleming had. The one that I got I, was looking absolutely everywhere. The condition was pretty rough and it seemed to be relumed, but it was the only thing I could find kind of pre-exclamation point. And uh it's interesting, those watches for whatever reason from nineteen sixty or so are often relumed and often in really tough shape. Um even Ian Fleming's own watch Rolex changed the dial on uh enhance and uh who knows where the original die on hands went, but it was not returned to the Fleming family, unfortunately. So uh it's hard with certain watches and
Tony Traina ranges just take a beating One of the reasons I wanted to really get you on was to do a a bit of a market update and just sort of general chatter and analysis. There have been a number of financial export and just other analytics and numbers and results that have sort of come up over the past few weeks. And I thought it'd be good to to have you on specifically to talk about this type of stuff, which which we'll get into here. So I'm just gonna run quickly through some of the reports that people have been referencing that depending on your interpretation are either not as bad as some may think or are kind of signaling warning signs for just a continued or uh sort of persistent downturn in the Swiss watch industry. One is the monthly report from the FHH, which said that exports were down 7.3% for Swiss watches in June 2024 as compared to the previous year. A lot of the public company results came out over the past few weeks. So SWATS was down 14% for the first half of the year. Rechmond's Watch Division was down 13%, LVMH down 3%. Those are the big ones. Those are all the primary market statistics that we often see watch charts, which obviously this gets a little bit closer to the secondary market that you deal in, uh, their prices or their index that they track was down 2.1%. The ninth consecutive quarter of decline, according to sort of what they track, the quote that they had that really stuck out to me, they said, it seems unlikely that secondary market prices will stabilize in the near future. So all these numbers kind of give you a slice of the industry, I think. Uh, we can talk about that particular slice and what it shows and what it doesn't show if you want. I think that in particular can be an interesting discussion. But I think a guy like you is often looking at different things and different indicators in the market than uh public company results or what something like watch charts might might be able to track given the data and and analytics available on the open internet. So I'm wondering if we could just kind of start with that question really, what you specifically are seeing from your vantage point and what it might pretend for the watch market
Eric Wind . It's uh an interesting time. I think uh people would say even for the last year it's kind of spotty what sells and what doesn't. You can put up a really excellent watch and it could sell in literally two minutes or you could uh have like a pretty great watch that's inexpensive and it just keeps sitting and you just keep lowering it and lowering it and lowering it um until it finally sells. The things that I've seen are one, you know, condition is more paramount than ever. Um, so top top condition examples, the collector community and just people in general are a lot more aware of these things, which is good. But it means that I have to be super picky when I'm sourcing watches, if I'm buying it or taking it on consignment. You've got to be kind of nimble because again, like all you know, I I every day am looking at the market and what I think will sell or not, but sometimes I'm wrong. Um so that that's another thing. The really the silver lining I would say to this cloud is that people that are buying watches are actually enthusiasts and are if they're buying it, it's not really an investment because there's no way most of these watches will appreciate at five percent plus the next number of years compounding uh versus just having your money in a high yield savings account or something else. Like, you know, I can't I cannot tell anyone on any of these watches they're better off buying this than having their money in a high yield savings account. It's just you're if you're buying it, it's because you want to wear it, you want to own it, you love it. Um, and I think a lot of people the last couple of years literally were buying it just because, oh, it's worth more on the secondary, oh, you know, it's gonna be worth more, all that sort of stuff. So that was a I would say a negative to all the hype the last since really you know since really right after the pandemic.
Tony Traina I've got kind of a two sided follow-up there. The last watch you listed that kind of sold in two minutes. And then on the other side of that, you mentioned sometimes you're wrong or sometimes you get it wrong. The last watch that you were kind of wrong about that you thought might sell quicker or just get more interest than than it did
Eric Wind . I sold the thirty-nine forty one J with a pink Doray dial at a pretty strong price very, very quickly after posting it, you know, within a day, and we're talking about a w watch out asking a hundred seventy-five thousand dollars for. So that was good. I mean, I wasn't sure it was priced strongly, but it's also one of those situations where it's like find another one. Not like there's a ton out there. It was reflected on the extract. It that was unpolished. It was really everything you wanted, except not a full set. Um, but it was just an awesome, awesome watch. Um, but I wasn't quite sure if it would sell immediately or not. Um Royal Oaks have taken a lot longer time to sell recently. Um, it's just I think they're probably overproducing overall. They're somewhat of a putting a sign on your back in big cities to rob you so, people are cautious about that. Um but even aquanauts, I know two people that were robbed of their aquanauts in Europe this summer. Um so, you know, that crime does have uh an effect on this because people want to wear their watch and feel safe and not feel like they're gonna be tackled uh or stabbed in the arm or all kinds of other crazy stuff for their watch. Um so yeah, those are two examples
Tony Traina . I want to take this in a couple directions, I think. Uh so does that for first of all, I guess I want to talk about the Royal Oak. Does that for you present sort of a I don't want to say an opportunity, but if the 5402 or the real true original Royal oaks are something that's compelling for you from a collectibility standpoint. Do you feel as though it's like a good time to get in them again
Eric Wind ? It could be. I mean, it's uh iconic watch. I love how thin they are. I love just the hour and minute hand. Um, you know, it's very, very hard to find unpolished ones. Um I had a one in the first 100. It took a while to sell, uh, but it did sell recently. Um so that was that was nice. It's just I think it's uh honestly it's a good time. I've had a number of I would say very savvy collectors say if you find like a really great A, B, or C unpolished one, please let me know because I'd love to buy it. And now seems like a lot better time than two years ago. Um, so yeah, I think there's always, I mean, that's an iconic watch same with the Nautilus 3700s, very hard to find in great cond
Tony Traina ition. You mentioned this with the the 3940 and it it having a duray dial, for those who don't know, kind of this like warm dial compared to sort of the standard silvery dial that that you see. And I'm wondering if stuff like that, you're seeing a bigger delta. It applies to the 3940 and the 5402, I would imagine like just seeing a bigger delta between those truly like rare and exceptional ones versus quote unquote average thirty nine forty and if like the premium between those two things is continuing to to sort of increase. Yeah, it
Eric Wind is. It's like if if something's lightly polished, honestly, it's much harder to sell. Um, so you have to you could, you know, like a an unpolished yellow um versus a polished yellow, it could be forty-five for for a polished one, forty to 45, and then unpolished could be 60 to 65. So that's a big, big difference. With everything else being the same, maybe both have an extract, uh, and that's about it. Um so yeah, it's it's you know people are picky, but that's that's a good thing. I think it shows that as a field collecting's maturing, people aren't just buying the reference, they're understanding what they're buying more. There's a lot more scholarship now than 10 years ago. Um, thanks to your work, Tony. And uh there's a lot more people that know know what they're doing, which is a good thing
Tony Traina . Oh, Eric, you are better than anyone else at sort of patting people on the back and blowing smoke, I would say. So so why just wish we had I just wish we had our podcast. The people I get more texts or or DMs about hey when is uh when is the Eric and Tony show coming back? So for the for the few hardcore listeners, it was never it was never like a blockbuster hit, but for those who um have been asking for it, here's half of the show at least. You're welcome. Exactly exactly. You know, one of the classic windisms from your HSNY talks and and other things, Hodinky, I suppose, there are a few, right? Birth your watches, which you hate. One of the other ones is depth of market is something you always talk about. And I think you you always give the 1016 as an example, 3940 is an example of the importance of depth of market. And it sounds like in in a world that we live in now it's it's more important than ever to uh just think about how deep these actual markets are when you're you're collecting a wat
Eric Wind ch. Yeah, exactly. I mean you saw it it when you had the ten sixteen that came from me walking through the original Ivy Beach and Peak show in January, everyone wanted to buy it off your wrist. Which tells you it's a pretty deep depth of market. Uh so and you know that obviously there's more people uh potentially in the range of buying a sub thirty K watch than a over one hundred K watch. So just a huge difference in terms of how many people have the free cash to invest and and put into something like that. So that's you know, I even I had a client who's a collector say, you know, what's more stable, like a 20 to 25k submariner, or is there something else if I want to think about, you know, the watches I have and when I pass away one day they go to my daughter, should I buy more things in that twenty, twenty five K range? And I said if you really care about stability, you probably should buy like more date just and air kings, like fourteen thousands and fifty five hundreds of things, because those seem very stable to me, great unpolished date just and uh air kings, OPs, like that that's not gonna swing down like 40%, I don't think, just because there's way more people in that sub-10K price bracket than over 20K
Tony Traina . You know, one of the things I mentioned there at the top was was watch charts saying that there's no sign of the watch market bottoming out yet. Obviously, like what we're talking about now are these rare collectible watches, and that's what you focus on at wind vintage, if I may say. But they're talking about the the secondary market more broadly and how it doesn't show signs of bottoming out. I'm wondering if first of all you agree with that sentiment more broadly and then if you feel as though there are segments of the market that have quote unquote bottomed out and you feel like are are trending upwards or
Eric Wind at least have stabilized. Yeah, I mean uh it's interesting because I still hear from people that are kind of tangent they're not as into watches as obviously you and I are, but they think that everything that's offered to them at retail is worth more on the secondary. And uh it's obviously a myth because a lot of stuff like if you get offered a white gold GMT or something else from a Rolex retailer, you're gonna lose money when you walk out the door. Like historically uh is the case, but people still come to me and they're like, I just bought this at retail. You know, what can you get me for it? I'm like, geez, what? You know, I had had someone do that with a white gold skydweller recently. They bought it in an airport in Italy duty free. And I was like, uh, I think you're gonna lose money on that one. Uh but it's um you know, it's an interesting thing. It's still obviously retailers are pushing out as much product as they can at retail prices, but very few things actually trade above retail. We know what they are, but even a lot of the Daytonas and things like that and precious metals are not really that much, if if at all above retail by the time you pay sack uh sales tax and things. So it's um yeah, I think there's probably some more room to come down on a lot of these things. They're not rare. You know, a lot of things are being produced, you know, like crazy amounts. The re all the companies are obviously trying to get as as much in terms of revenue as they can per year. Um and uh yeah, I mean they're also trying to pressure their clients not to resell um both from a selfish perspective of not wanting to lose the retailer, but also because they just don't want to flood the secondary market on behalf of the retailers. Um, Charlie and I joke sometimes with the AP cards, they give the little card with the scan the QR code. And AP is probably more aggressive than anyone in terms of we've sold a few code 1159s for for clients that kind of had to buy them and we've tried to keep the serial private but it ends up changing hands and then AP finds out about it. They have a whole team just looking up every serial. And we joke that if we take a photo of that QR code with our phone, you know, a drone's gonna come and shoot a missile at us. No, don't scan the QR code. But yeah, they're more aggressive than anyone, which um is obviously uh helps keep the secondary market values kind of where they are because with it, you know, to sitting in a safe, but they don't want to get blacklisted or blackballed
Tony Traina for for future royal. Do you have any do you feel any sort of type of way about those types of practices, kind of you know brands spying on their their clients for lack of a better term. I I assume Win Vintage doesn't have a team that's spying on their clients to see where their where their watches have gone
Eric Wind . Yeah. No. Um, I mean, I like it if I sell a great watch for it to come back and I get unhappy if it goes to auction. But you know, I had sold um a royal oak that was or sorry a, talk about Royal Oak is an early seafare tropical dial that I had sourced from the grandson of the original owner at Christie's in two thousand seventeen. It went for sixty thousand dollars. Just spectacular dial. Um, it came out of Brazil. The gentleman's grandfather was Brazilian, but into you know, all kinds of fishing and boating activities. So he bought it really for a purpose. Um, and that gentleman owned it for a while, I then resold it for him to another guy who was a doctor. Um and then basically rather than give it back to me, he put it at auction at Phillips and it went for 43,000. And when I saw it in the catalog, I was like, oh man, like I really I am have a few clients who would love to buy that watch. I think you know, I can't believe you put it at auction. It seems very risky And then he probably walked away with like thirty three thousand dollars after sellers uh commission. Incept he lost almost half of the money he had into it. Um but you know, that was disappointing just because I really loved the watch. Um but yeah, in general though people can do what they want with the watches. I do uh Charlie and I do pay attention to somehow some people really take good care of their watches, like they look exactly like uh how we sold it to them. And some people are super hard on their watches, like even after six months or a year if they come back and want to sell it. We're like, man, this thing looks so much work and then we sold it to them and it's like you almost don't want to sell them really amazing watches because
Tony Traina You know, I'm glad you're bringing up Hoyer a lot. We talked about the seafarer at the top, and just again now one came up because one of the things I wanted to talk a little bit about was I I think it was kind of one of your first real vintage loves was vintage Hoyer and you know just talking a little bit about the state of that market. It's always like a favorite topic of conversation because it's been so up and down over the past, I don't know, 10, 15 years now. But uh what's what's what's happening in that space now and sort of how has it developed
Eric Wind It's interesting because uh we had a lot of lot of great hoyers last year that were very, very hard to sell slash were sitting and then January rolled around and like eighty percent of our Hoyers sold in January, February, March. I don't know exactly why, um, but suddenly, you know, Pereiras were pretty hard to sell and then suddenly everyone wanted Carreras. We sold them all in a very short period of time. Um I love Carreras uh was one of my my my really my first nice vintage watch uh or expensive one I would, say, was a Carrera, uh that I found on eBay and got Jeff Stein's blessing to purchase back in 2010. But um was it a 2447? Yeah, it was an S. Egg Shell dial, which no one knew what that was at the time. I love Hoyer. I there's obviously a connection with Formula One and Formula One doing so well and such enthusiasm and Hoy Vintage Hoyer, I would say. A lot of the people that love Hoyer are older guys who grew up, you know, watching uh the Formula One drivers back in the 60s and 70s and kind of seeing the Hoyer patches on their uh uh race uniforms and uh ra race suits and everything else. So that that was kind of the core, I would say, of the Hoyer collecting community and people into classic cars and things like that. But you know, it's there's a whole obviously a lot of us who were not alive then, like you and me, who love these things. And it's it's been I would say twenty twenty four has been very kind uh to vintage warriors generally very strong. Same for um submariners, funnily enough, which were very soft in 2023 and have come back in
Tony Traina a big way in 2024. Well you talked about the Submariner reference points a little bit ago, and it really peaked in was it like 2018 basically when we did that reference points? And I felt like every day 2018. Yeah. What happened? It felt like everyone kind of wanted a guilt, like a nice guilt sub at the time, and then they just everyone got the guilt sub they wanted and moved on or or what was the sort of the tr the trajectory of what happened there
Eric Wind ? Yeah, I think um a lot of the demand was coming out of Asia, particularly um the vintage rolex asylum group that's in Indonesia uh and in Hong Kong. Um so they were all wanting really excellent big crowns and then kind of when they all got them. It's like what happens when two people really want something and they both get it, but there's no buyer for the third example? What does where does the value of that you know piece of art or something else go? It's very hard then to find a buyer. So that that's kind of what happened with those. There was also um, you know, I would say nefarious work because there's uh because the values were so high, there's a lot of relooming and other work um that were done on some of these watches which make people lose confidence. Um and then we just weren't really seeing great ones at auction. There haven't been many great ones that have come to auction recently, um, partially because people don't want to sell them if it's way below they paid or where they feel the value should be. So that's really it was a whole series of things, but um, there's still a lot of great ones out there. Very much stealth wealth. Like if you look at that, like a great big crown, we have an unpolished 5510 on our site right now. It's you know, no one's gonna really rob you for that watch, I feel like in Brussels or in Barcelona or Madrid, probably. Uh but um it's really that's that's one positive. It's stealth wealth, and it is a super cool watch on the wrist
Tony Traina . What about the later ones? You know, Charlie Charlie Dunn, your your sort of number one specialist over there, your number two right hand man. Uh yeah. I hope he's hearing this right now. He wrote he wrote a great article about the fifty five twelve, Hodinki, we did one about the 5513, obviously the 1680, the date version. Uh, you know, these later examples has have those sort of generated any increased excitement? I mean, Matt Dials, earlier guilt dials, uh uh have you seen sort of an uptick in in interest in those a recent
Eric Wind ly? Definitely. A ton more interest. They were very hard to sell last year. Now we kinda sell every good one we get very quickly at probably fifteen percent above where it would have sold last year in terms of value. So it is, you know, there is like there is a huge mentality, like lemming mentality, if you will, of collectors just going around thinking, oh, this is the next cool thing. Oh, let me go back to this. This is now cool. Let me go to this. Like, you know, uh that's okay. There's a collector conversation, but obviously it's good for people to actually buy what they like themselves rather than just uh what you read about online and see on Instagram. Um, but that's why sometimes we see these big swings in values like Hoyer dropping and then Hoyer coming back and you know, it's really kind of the the herd mentality. Um, you know, Charlie um I gave him a fifty five twelve uh last year when I promoted him to vice president of Wind Vintage, but I didn't expect he would love it so much. I thought it would be a good thing to have in the collection, a great looking watch. Obviously one of my favorites, uh kind of my first love in the world of Rolex. Uh, but you know, he really he really helped save the submariner market. But he also, because of his scholarship on the 5512, um there's now I would say material difference between the 55-12 and 55-13 values, which there probably should be because it's chronometer rated, it's much less common, um, and those sorts of things, like a you know, a vintage turbo horsher versus versus a normal one or whatever, there's a material difference. People will pay more for the better example. And the 5512s were like 30% more expensive new, but you know, in the past no one really cared and they were basically about the same price, but now there's material difference. People prefer to get a fifty five twelve generally to the fifty five thirteen.
Tony Traina Is it mainly a rarity thing that is that just like the entire explanation? And then it's much, much, much more difficult to find a really nice fifty-five twelve compared to thirteen
Eric Wind ? I think it's not just rarity. It's the fact that the movement is actually better. Uh there's there's it's it's chronometer rated, it's got more jewels, it's uh just a better kind of piece of equipment, even new. So yeah, people are beginning to understand that. I mean, there's a lot more focus on, I would say, movements and things, which is good for watches generally. Um it's not just aesthetics now. Um so yeah that's that's a positive as well
Tony Traina . Yeah it feels like chasing rarity for its own sake is kind of a losy man's game, right? There's always something rarer. It's got to be like towards an end of getting a chronometer certified movement or like a nice, beautiful derate dial, or whatever it is. It's got to be like with an end in mind. And you shouldn't chase rarity for its own sake. Yeah, exactly. Something you mentioned there was kind of the potential funny business that can scare people away from vintage Rolex, vintage submariners. It's it's something I wanted to talk with you a little bit more about because it's something I hear very, very often. I want to get into vintage, but I'm scared to death of it. Uh they'll reference, oh, I'd love to buy a watch from Win Vintage or you know, maybe a few other select dealers that people view as sort of in your class, but in general, it's a very, very scary market for for a lot of people, the uninitiated, even people that are, you know, going to watch events at new watch boutiques or wherever else. I'm wondering what you feel we as a vintage watch industry or vintage dealers like yourself, auction houses, things that things that can be done better, opportunities to kind of improve upon the the general perception of the vintage wat
Eric Wind ch world. I mean, it's it is very tricky out there. There's even some of these smaller vintage dealers who were selling watches for people and then not paying them. So there's all kinds of people who are owed money by some of these guys and then you bought a watch from them, but you kind of don't have the title and the person who owned it before you is contacting you trying to get you the watch back because they weren't paid, but you also sent money for it. So it it is uh it's very tricky um there's a lot of shenanigans at all price levels whether we're talking about five hundred dollar vintage watches or five million dollar vintage watches. So um the best I think thing is just to be transparent. Um I wish there was more, you know, I mean more enthusiasm, more collector gatherings, all of these sort sorts of things will help. Um there you know, at some point I think grading will come into play in some sense with with watches because um we see that with baseball cards coins all kinds of collectible uh assets and that helps I mean you wouldn't really even buy a three thousand dollar diamond without having a GIA certificate. Um so something like that would would be helpful. It can bring negatives as well, which is that people don't really think about the watches as much anymore. It's more about the grade, or less about the beauty of the watch and enjoying it. Um, but maybe people will treat their watches a little better, not beat them up. So that's good. Uh so yeah, that there's there's a number of things that could take place, but you know, the marketplace is filled with sharks. Um but as I've kind of said before, there's a lot more awareness on condition now. So that is a positive. And like I said, people are buying these things because they love them, not because it's gonna increase five percent plus per year right now. It's not likely that most of your watches will appreciate at those level
Tony Traina s. In a way, that's why it sucks even more if someone's getting screwed nowadays. Like a few years ago, there were a lot more speculators and you kind of you kind of knew they were getting in for financial reasons. Yeah. Uh I'm curious, you mentioned transparency. I to me that works on a couple of levels. Number one, transparency as to the seller themselves, who they are, what they do, how they operate, uh, what kind of business they're operating, and then obviously about the watch itself. You said there's a lot of sharks out there. I'm wondering for for consumers, clients, enthusiasts listening to this, uh things that you can look for that are telltale signs of a shark, either uh the way in the way they operate or that the watch that they're selling might actually be kind of uh a a lemon in sheep's clothing or whatever the phrase would be
Eric Wind . Yeah. Um I think one, I personally wouldn't buy really anything of significant value from someone if I didn't know who they were or what they looked like, their name, that sort of thing. Uh and it's amazing how many people send wires of ten, twenty thousand dollars plus to kind of unnamed dealers. You have no idea their background, their educational pedigree, anything about them. Uh, and I just think like, did your your brain shut off about this? And how can you be surprised these guys are kind of charlat
Tony Traina ans and sharks and it's a it drives me absolutely insane though that I'm like going onto dealer websites and you're trying to poke around in terms of service or privacy policies that are obviously just ripped from some standard template to try to figure out their LLC name. So then you can go into the state records to figure out the actual person. And sometimes they're, you know, they're they're part-time dealers or they're, you know, they have a full-time job and uh they're doing this on the side, which has its own sort of things. But it's it's absolutely absolutely wild to me. Anything else? Um
Eric Wind so I would ask a few other things. Do you have a return policy? Um, you know, generally everything single thing we say in cell has a three-day return policy as long as it's in the same condition um for a refund less shipping charges which is not typically that significant in terms of the the charges so that's a good thing, you know, a good conversation to have is if I want to sell this in a year or two, you know, would you help me sell it? You know, and maybe buy it back or offer it on consignment for me to help me out. Like we always try to do that and help people out, but it's amazing how many people buy something that's pretty expensive from a dealer and a year or two passes, they go back and the dealer says, I've got two others right now or whatever. You know, particularly when you're talking about thirty thousand dollar plus watches, um, that they don't wanna take on selling it. That kind of indicates their confidence in the in the watch and excitement about that. So that's you know something else I ask. And just uh where the watch came from, honestly. Obviously I see watches all the time that are offered around with replace dials and kind of put together Frankenstein pieces. Um, and you know, it's good to ask where it came from. You know, it's not as big an issue if it's like a newer reverso from the last ten years, but when you're talking about nineteen sixties, nineteen seventies watches, you might want to kind of know where they found it. Another Windism, uh always have an exit plan, I think. It's a classic one. Yeah, it is. And a lot of people don't. And it's uh it's tough
Tony Traina to see. I wanted to talk. This is kind of been a good discussion of the vintage watch market and the market more broadly. I wanted to move into one more thing for the last few minutes here because you've started to dip your toe in the modern watch world against all expectations and against all odds even some might say. You've you've done a number of collaborations over the past few years. Uh you're friendly obviously with Jack Carlson of Rowing Blazers and you've done some some great Seiko releases, even a release with Tudor and Zodiac. The most recent one which we covered on Hodinky was the Merci Tracksmith Collab, which which you helped with, had a nice sort of uh vintage inspiration on their LMM01 platform. I think they call it Blue Dial with Brigade Numerals. So I'm wondering uh what you've sort of learned or what you just didn't understand about the modern product development process that you've come to appreciate in doing all these limited editions
Eric Wind . I mean it's cool because it's not that different in terms of what you know companies were doing a hundred years ago, which is you've got to focus on the dial that's usually sourced from one place and the movements often from someplace else and then the case and you know you've got to think about uh what the market wants for a specific watch. You know, we did um we did two different zodiacs with rowing blazers. The Harry's Bar in Paris uh did really well with kind of a green dial. The um world time, which was kind of based on the trading places watch. We went a little more subtle with the black dial. I was kind of advocating for something with more color in terms of the dial. Um but we went with the blue bezel and the black dial. People absolutely love the watch, but it was a harder watch to sell because I think people looking for a zodiac want bright colors like pink or orange or teal or that sort of thing. So I've learned, you know, it's not just about the watch diet design itself. It's what people want when they buy the watch uh and expect from a given brand. Um so I'm always kind of pushing that. Obviously there's more there are more uh collaborations in the pipeline uh for rowing blazers and also for wind vintage um which I'm excited about but it's been a lot of fun. Uh you know, I think uh it's nice to honestly have like uh I'm not a huge fan of the whole moon swatch and kind of blog pond swatch everything else. One, it's been played out but, two, they're essentially disposable watches. It's not exactly great for the environment, and they've got just tons of factories making these things. At least with like the rowing blazers, Seiko, five sports line and things like that. Those are watches that'll last for decades that you can give to kids. They can enjoy. Like it's a cool thing that actually has some permanence in the market and that um you know people can enjoy and get compliments on all the time and is not uh a watch that breaks the bank for a lot of people. So that's been rewarding
Tony Traina . Yeah it's also cool. I think if I recall the first article you probably wrote for Hodinky was about the pole router, but I think you mentioned that one of the early ones that you wrote about was uh a ra Seko rally diver. Yes. Which obviously you you brought back for for your first run of of Seiko rolling Blazers watches. So it's got to be cool for you to bring stuff into the world that sort of got you into the hobby, you know, all those years ago. And
Eric Wind I think because I've got a vintage eye, I mean, I really did not like the new Seiko pogue chronograph that's like inspired by I was like oh my guys like I was pitching uh rowing blazers doing a pogue uh quite a while back but I can assure you it did not look anything like what they actually came out with. Um, but they turned us down because they said, oh, we don't want to, you know, to you guys to do vintage basically uh inspired models as much. We kind of stuck that rally diver in, but I was trying to do the Mac V SOG dials on the Seiko as well, and they said no, you can't do that because that's vintage inspired. I turned down on two of my better ideas and I wouldn't be surprised if Sago uh comes out with it on their own on their own again, but I don't think it'll look as good as it I had designed it with throw
Tony Traina ing it? Obviously not. Obviously not. Uh you know, one of the things you've done in some of your previous talks is you identify potential business opportunities or ideas for people in the watch business. I'm sure you get questions about this all the time too, as someone who made a transition to a full-time career in watches, first in the auction business and now setting off on your own. And it the watch world has changed a lot since the last time you probably addressed this topic anywhere. But I'm wondering if you kind of as you look around the landscape in any corner or or part of it, if you see sort of ideas or opportunities for for people that are looking to get into the watch business, uh either as an entrepreneur or, you know, as a dealer, whatever it might be.
Eric Wind It's I mean, it's very interesting. There's still all kinds of opportunities, perhaps, around data, but there's every watch now. Um I don't know. I get the emails, but I don't really use it that much. Um there have been other people have tried to do data plays with the auction houses and it's always a big issue about whether they have the rights to use the data or the photos or everything depending on the auction house. I don't know if ultimately at that of the day that is a real business that's gonna be worth real money or people will subscribe or things like that. Um there there's tons of uh the data around new prices, you know, Chrono 24 as data obviously that's I think been interesting and they've tried to do different things with the data. You've got the subdial watch index that always gets a ton of attention because of the Bloomberg partnership. You know, there's the data side to me has not really been cracked yet. Um, but it's it's it's hard because every watch is somewhat unique in terms of year and condition and everything else, particularly with vintage, it's hard to say this watch should should be worth this based on the data you're inputting in the system. Um so yeah that that is uh that data side's interesting. You know, I think um grading is interesting. Blockchain technology still uh, you know, has not really been used that much, but tracking where watches have been would be interesting and being able to have like a record of where this Summariner's been the last 10 years, the collectors it's been with how it came to market originally. Um I think you see that with art because all important art basically has a whole record of where it's been the last fifty years and what exhibitions it's been in. I would still love to see more vintage watch exhibitions. You know, we don't the brands do it a little bit like Brightling when they were at Chicago, they've done this kind of traveling exhibition, but um there have been limited times. The Oak Collection, that show in London got a lot of press uh with a lot of his watches, but um you know with cars there's all kinds of you know concourse competitions and other things uh with art, there's retrospectives on a given artist and people want to lend their their artwork to the show because it's it makes it more valuable and interesting. Um but we don't really have that with watches as much.
Tony Traina Yeah, it's it's interesting and it's it's difficult, but I completely agree with you that every time I see one of these exhibition exhibits, especially with vintage watches, it kind of renews the interest and appreciation. Uh especially when, you know, auctions and some of these vintage watch shows that have a clear sort of commercial purpose in mind are great, but when there's no like commercial end and it's just an exhibit for its own sake, it it can be really fun. Uh yeah, it'd be it. The last thing I wanted to talk about, Eric, is I I know you're involved with a charity that'll be doing an auction here coming in December. Uh, you know, the Laviolette Foundation and Doug Laviolette is actually someone I've I've mentioned on the show before. Uh I've become friendly with him as well. But I'm wondering if you could just talk a little bit about that auction, what it's for, and you know, what what people can
Eric Wind expect. The Brian Lavallette Scholarship Foundation was uh created in honor of uh Brian Lovellette, who is a really bright and wonderful young man who uh passed away uh when he was fifteen years old. He had uh had a swimming accident and drowned. And his family, of course, was uh, you know, incredibly stricken with grief about it. And to honor his memory, they created a scholarship foundation and said, let's try to help people, you know, in his in his memory. Um that he had uh the idea a number of years ago of asking the Pope to donate one of his watches, which was a swatch um to do an auction for the scholarship foundation um and Doug is really a wonderful guy as you know he's a little bit little bit kooky and wacky in a sense because he has audacious dreams. Uh and somehow they they hit they become reality. So he um basically threw the uh bishop in Green bay requested to the Vatican for the watch and it came. Uh he then got in contact with me and uh Green Bay is pretty close to where I grew up. It's about you know 40 miles away from Manitow,ac Wisconsin, where my parents still live, and uh basically said, can you help us? Would you want to donate? Would you want to get involved? We did the first auction in 2022. It raised over 1$500,00. Um, $56,250 was the end result on the Pope swatch, which was a world record for a swatch. Um, and it was very, very exciting for something made of bioceramic. Uh and uh that was that was really we got wonderful press. You donated this watch as well, which was wonderful, Tony. Um I donated not fifty six thousand dollars. No, no, but maybe one day. And uh I donated it to Rolex. We had just a really fun, uh scrappy, crowdsourced grassroots kind of auction. Uh and we're doing the same thing now. Two years later, it's coming up in December in New York with Christie's um December eleventh, the live auction, and uh there'll be an online auction as well uh around that time that runs for about 10 days. So uh I'm donating a really nice uh unpolished date just with a confetti dial 1601. We've got already some really wonderful donations that have come in. Um, so basically we've got Jack Ryan's watch from uh the show Jack Ryan made by Vortik. We've got some other really cool watches. A collector and client of ours just donated a vintage Patek Philippe Calatrava, which I was amazed at. There's a lot of really cool things coming in. Someone who was in the Olympics uh in Sydney donated his Seiko. That was for the competitors only. Um so we're very excited about that. Just a really neat group of of pieces coming in. And anyone uh that's listening, if you would like to donate, obviously it's kind of tax deductible. It's a really wonderful cause.
Tony Traina That's super cool. I I'm excited to you know see what comes of it. And I I was at the auction in 2022 excited to to see what comes of the one this year. Bigger than ever before. So it's really exciting to see it grow. Thank you for coming back to Hodinky and doing this, Eric. And thank you all for listening. Thanks to Vic Autominelli, our video and audio editor. And we'll see you all again next week.