The Patek Philippe Calatrava Episode With Ben and Rich¶
Published on Wed, 10 Jul 2024 16:55:00 +0000
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Synopsis¶
In this episode of Hodinkee Radio, Tony Traina sits down with Hodinkee founder Ben Clymer and vintage watch expert Rich Fordon to discuss the Patek Philippe Calatrava, arguably the most iconic dress watch ever made. Introduced in 1932 during a pivotal moment in Patek Philippe's history—right after the Stern family acquisition—the Calatrava has evolved from the reference 96 into dozens of variations spanning nearly a century.
The conversation begins with defining what actually constitutes a Calatrava, with each host offering their perspective. While Patek itself now uses the term broadly for round, time-only watches, collectors have more specific definitions. The discussion moves through the golden era of Calatrava collecting, focusing on sought-after references like the 570, 565, 2508, and 2509 from the 1940s-50s. Ben reveals his favorite watch might be the 2526—the first automatic Calatrava with an enamel dial—while also discussing the 3417 with its distinctive antimagnetic script.
The hosts examine why certain references remain underappreciated, noting how the proliferation of information about rare variants can paradoxically make collecting more difficult. They discuss the challenging period of the 1970s-80s during the quartz crisis, when Patek produced less compelling designs, before the brand's renaissance in the 1990s with neo-vintage references like the Japan-exclusive 3718 and the Harrods special edition 3923. Throughout, they grapple with questions of size, condition, dial variation, and what makes a Calatrava truly collectible in today's market, where the most exceptional examples can sell for millions at auction.
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Transcript¶
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| Tony Traina | Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Hodinki Radio. Today, the Patek Philippe Calatrava episode. Introduced in nineteen thirty two, though it wouldn't call the Calatrava until years later, the Patek Calatrava is perhaps the most iconic watch, laying the blueprint for the modern dress watch. It was also introduced at a pivotal time in the history of Patek Philippe. So I've got Ben and Rich here, we're gonna talk all about the Calatrava. First, what even is the Calatrava and what is not a Calatrava? We jumped through the history of the line from 1932 through today and we'll talk about some of our favorite references, collecting the Calatrava in the current market, as well as some of the biggest ones we've ever seen at auction. But first of all, let's just say hello to Ben and Rich. First of all, Rich, I mean your triumphant return to Hodinkee Radio. How are you feeling today? Hey Todd. Feeling good. Thanks for having me out. Thanks for coming on. Great to have sort of our vintage expert, our client advisor on to talk about what I'm sure is one of your favorite references, the Patek Philippe Calatrava, right, Rich? Of course. One of my favorite watches. Great. And of course, we've got our founder for the second week in a row bracing us with his presence. Benjamin Klymer. How are you doing today? I'm great, Tony. Nothing |
| Ben Clymer | makes me happier than when you go from like this mild mannered kind of quiet editor dude into who you are on on this podcast. You are the best version of yourself when cameras are |
| Tony Traina | rolling. Split personalities, baby. Uh sorry. Well thank you both for for listening or for coming on the podcast, I should say. First of all, Ben, let's just start here. Can you talk about your relationship with the Patek Philippe Calatrava briefly |
| Ben Clymer | ? My relationship. As long as it might be. How long do you two go back? We we go back away. You know, I don't know if you know this, Tony, but I'm I'm older. Even before we even get to my relationship with like I'm going to refuse to answer what I think college problem is. I want to know your definition of it. Because like the everyone kind of calls or historically, people have just kind of called any time only watch in the vintage era a colatrapa, whether it be some basharon or AP or Attech or whatever. That's not how I view it. Um, but I I have long loved the Calatrapa. I've owned few. There's a few that have been noticeably absent in my ownership history, such as uh five seventy, I've never five seventy. They are spectacularly fun to collect. They're also, I think, really misunderstood. And I I I don't want to say that they're like a a I I I'm not going to say they're a dangerous investment, but like there is such a narrow group of people today that are buying big dollar Calatravas out there. You know, there's like the five thirties and the five seventies that we see at Phillips that go for like mid-six figures, occasionally seven figures. Like the people that are doing that are so few and far between that I really just wonder where the future of like the Calatrava goes. Uh and if we start seeing these like kind of like new routravas uh start to get kind of more popular, which I guess we already have. That's probably why we're here today. Um but my relationship with the Calatrava is is long in story and I've had 2508s, 2509, 565s. So I've never had a 570 weirdly. Um but they're awesome. I mean like again I think it is uh it is an important part of watch collecting to really understand uh the the time I'm I won't say the Kala Troa but the time only pat |
| Tony Traina | tern well Ben I'm glad you set it up that way. I brought data points to help answer the question because I will take the first stab at answering the question of what is the Patek Philippe Calatrava, or at least what do people sort of view it as. And yes, to sort of start there talking about time only Calatravas today. I think there is another world in which we can talk about the Calatrava shaped case, I suppose, but we're not going to veer too far in that direction today. I have two two data points that I want to bring to the table here. First of all, from paddock itself, if you go to their website, if you go to paddock.com/slash collection/slash calatrava, this is what they say about the Calatrava, their most iconic of watches. They say, with its pure lines, the Calatrava is recognized as the very essence of the round wristwatch, and one of the finest symbols of the Patek Philippe style. Supremely elegant, it charms each new generation of watch lovers by its timeless, understated perfec What do you think of that |
| Ben Clymer | , Ben? Oh, look, I mean they're they're the people that created the term, right? So like I'm gonna go with that. And I it's always funny to me, and again, I kind of straddle this line of like being in the industry and then being a collector. It's always funny to me when like collectors like challenge with the brands themselves, say, like the people who invented the thing. So do do I agree with with that definition? Yeah, sure. I mean, are our all modern time only PATEX colatravas? Now they're calling them that, but I think the definition of what a colatrava is for a collector is a little bit different. Uh, but I do buy what they're selling in in this c |
| Tony Traina | ase. Rich, I've got one more definition of the padded calatrava that I want to throw by you, Mr. Vintage, over here, because this one comes from one John Nagayama, who Japanese watch dealer, very famous for dealing a lot in in Kalatrava, specific specifically the 96, but really all of the references. This comes from an old a collected man article, but he says the quintessential Cal calatrava is slim with a round case, flat bezel, and simple flat lugs originating from the case that curve down. What do you think of that, Rich |
| Rich Fordon | ? I slightly disagree with what is stated in that article by John Nayama as well as John Reardon. Um I think it's a very narrow definition of what a Kalatrava is. Um I'm a bit broader and I have my own definition. You can team me up for that whenever you wish. But I think where I differ is on the specifics of the bezel and the case and the lug shape. Uh on about Bibfrotter. I'll say that. Well |
| Tony Traina | , Rich, why don't you just you teed yourself up there? I mean, I wasn't do I wasn't gonna do it for you, so why don't you give us your definition |
| Rich Fordon | ? Well, we talk about the name Kyle Travel, it goes back to the tech using that, obviously the logo and all that lore, but the tech first using that in the late to mid-1980s with the 3919, which doesn't fit either of those two men's definitions from that article. So I'm broad along those lines where I have a list, which I can start right now. Um I have a list of characteristics that |
| Tony Traina | I see as a cadre. Rich, you did your homework. Thank you so much for this. Ben, we'll get to your list in a second because I'm sure you did your homework as well. But Rich, as always, let's do it |
| Rich Fordon | . Ben can go after me as always. Um number one uh is made by Patsy. So Ben sort of touched on it a little bit earlier. Uh I don't see AP time only dress watches or Vash Rad says, God promised. That's a little salty. Number two, round. Number three, time only or time and date. Number four, has logs and a straight. Nobody says as opposed to what? You know, there's a lot of time only what could be called travelers without looks from like the 70s. You know, no just just straight attached bracelets. Integrated bracelets. Yeah. Yeah. No, that I feel like that goes with that saying, but I'm glad to say that. Yes. Well th,ank you for agreeing with me, not a less. I do. Number four, has a crown at three o'clock. No backwind, Kyle Travis. And number five, in that 3919 advertisement where the type of first started to call the collection of trava, one of the key words is simplicity. So my bit characteristics that I don't know, I kind of lost time by now is simplicity. Um and I think that kind of takes out any fancy lugs, any hooded lugs, any anything teardrop, anything scroll shaped, because if you include that out, you're looking at over like a hundred references. I'm gonna scale back. We're looking at like 80 references before the 3990 our college Robinson I book. You're saying 80? It's actually over 80. |
| Tony Traina | God I I would I would have said like I would have said like five. Well, Ben just, give us if it's only five, you might as well just give us the list. What are the calatravas in your mind |
| Ben Clymer | then? It in my mind, it's uh 2508, 2509, 96, obviously. Uh 570, 530. What about the mod you're just we're talking you're talking about just the vintage references obviously vintage correct and then and and then and then once we get into once the text starts using it in their own advertisement whatever they call a collagen is a collar drive and anybody says otherwise is Yeah. I think |
| Tony Traina | Rich, so first of all, you brought up a point that I kind of wanted to land at where uh obviously when the pet when the ninety-six was introduced in nineteen thirty-two, it it wouldn't be called the Calatrava until as you're hinting at, like fifty years later when Paddock introduced it as really a marketing term instead of an actual collection line. And at that point it was just uh almost any round watch. You're kind of hinting at the 3919 that was kind of the hobnail watch that would kind of go on to define the modern Calatrava design in a lot of ways. But but for years and years it wasn't like it was this cohesive Calatrava collection. It's something that we kind of have have retrofitted in a way uh uh almost |
| Rich Fordon | right. And that also coincides with the tech using collections for the first time. It's not a coincidence that they first started to call the Calatrava collection such in the late 80s. It's also the same time they started to use Nautilus and the Lip as more collection families. So they were defining their dialogue at the time. It's not just the college travel, it's the whole range |
| Tony Traina | . Yeah, it's true. And in a way, that's interesting. I want to sort of jump off and talk about the reference 96 for just a second, since obviously that was the first one. We've alluded to it. Everyone knows the paddock calatrava ninety six, the first sort of reference number watch, the first serially produced reference number watch from paddock. It was kind of introduced at an important time in Paddock's history is right when Stern and the Stern brothers had acquired Paddock in 1932. Um it was like at a pivotal time in the history of paddock. And sort of what happened is they first appointed this guy named Jean Feaster who had been leading Tavanis Watchco. Did you guys know this? And he would go on to introduce the 96 was like the first project that they introduced in 1932. And then obviously a lot of the serially produced complicated watches that we all know and love, the 2499s, 1526s, and so on, would would come soon after that over to the 30s, 40s, and 50s. But throughout that entire time from the 1932 until the 1970s, produced the 96, obviously produced in all kinds of variations. I mean, steel, gold, platinum, all kinds of dial variations, brigade numerals, diamond numerals, early signatures, long signatures that changed over to the short signature in nineteen forty eight. Pretty much anything you can imagine. It's a thirty point five, thirty-one millimeter dress watch if we're being generous. Yeah, they're tiny. Yeah, they're tiny little things, right? But guys, just sort of in terms of collecting the the ninety-six, this quintessential calatrava that they produced for forty years or whatever it was, any sort of favorite no favorites in terms of just collectability or just general notes on collecting the 96 or thinking about acquiring one if if you want to put it that way |
| Ben Clymer | ? Yeah I mean I I've own I've owned two 96s. I have a steel brigade uh 96 uh and then I own a yellow gold black dial 96 that was given to me by somebody. Um and they're they're amazing watches. I mean it it's real quintessence of of Attack. Um when at the time they were like, you know, I think I paid seven thousand dollars for the steel one, something like that. Uh maybe even less. So actually the yellow gold one was given to me, but like you know, it's it's real heritage and real patek without without costing the fortune. The only downside, of course, is that like they are meaningfully small. You know, I mean, I'm wearing a 38mm watch as I do most days, and it's like they feel markedly smaller than this. Um, so you know, I I find a lot of like you know, young dorky vintage guys, like everyone on this call, kind of get into them because like they're air quotes affordable. Now like, wait a minute, like I I can't wear this. But I mean, having said that, this whole th this whole thing though, like the tiny wash and the little tiny APs that that just came out and so many people are doing these little watches, maybe now they're more in vogue than they ever were, but historically, like you you weren't really buying them unless you couldn't afford the 570 or the 565, except for Japan and Japan and other Japanese collectors. Um but the the you know the nine and six was really kind of like uh you bought it because you couldn't afford the other stock for so long as having said that, here and there some special ones would would kind of break through the noise and sell for big dollars. Like there was a Sotheby's New York sold a uh a platinum on platinum bracelet ninety-six with a box, maybe ten years ago. And like at the time, but ninety six was trading for like, you know, maybe ten grand, and this sold for like ninety or something like that. Um, you know, so at times when you find something in in super rare condition or super rare spec, uh you know, you kind of break through and all of a sudden you have something experimental. And people like, you know, the Faran Ecos of the World or the Goldberg of the World would would take note. But generally speaking, the 96 is is a watch that is is kind of uh I hate I don't want to say an afterthought to to serious pot collectors, but but certainly not at the forefront yet. Rich, anything to add there? |
| Rich Fordon | Yeah, I think that's fair. I think we won't go too far down this road, but the 96 opens up a interesting discussion about condition as well. Because the swatch is super old. Uh, the case is very non-waterproof and dustproof. So the dials are normally pretty hard to find in good condition, not restored. And I'm thinking about a Sotheby's launch signature steel that was in New York just this past season that did sort of poorly. It was unrestored and like a very, very original dial, but it did poorly versus some of the dials that have been touched up, I would say. Um so what is poorly? So so I understand. Like what's the number? Putting me on the spot, but I believe it was somewhere between 30 and 40. Oh, at poorly. But I mean the steel sector dial lawn signature is expected to do uh yeah. And it it just came down to watch not being attracted to a large audience like you were talking about, but the market for these things is already very small. And there are still a large portion of collectors who want to watch that looks really good no matter what the originality. Yeah. Uh but ninety six comes down to a lot of those factors as well, which would be even nerdier than the conversation we're already having, but don't har |
| Ben Clymer | d hard to believe, to be honest. Yeah. I I think the the the one the one the one place where I think the the the 96 is supposed to be the counter where the 96 really excels is is you kind of alluded to Rich is like variation of dial type. If you look back at like a lot of the limited editions that you've seen from us, frankly, from Phillips, from from Long Jean recently, from others, from Ralph Ferrier, a lot of these are basically taken from 96 dial. You know, if these dials existed on 570s or 530s, they'd be seven clicking watches. Uh but because they're on ninety sixes, they kind of get I don't want to say cast aside, but kind of like forgotten uh by everyone except for for people like us. Uh but the the dial variation on ninety sixes are are really, really neat. And I I could see you know if somebody just had a love for for the watch like I could see somebody button really hard on 906 is solely because of the |
| Tony Traina | Yeah but I think part of the appeal for the part of the appeal to some of these modern reinterpretations, right? Is because no one would ever buy the the small little dinky 96s, right? So there's uh they're updating it to modern taste, I think, right? Yeah, whoa, whoa, whoa. Then you're one that the just said uh you you know you're just calling the ninety six the the backwater of paddock collecting over here. So it's it's not this it's it's |
| Ben Clymer | a free it's like so many other right. It's it's like so many other things. It's either like it's it's like the tip, like the the most a connoisseur like collector's collector, or it's the or it's like you can't afford it, so so you'll you'll just buy it. Yeah. Yeah. And like we know it's it's is it's it's A or B, seldom is it both, obviously. Um, but you know, there there are people like John in Japan who is remarkably knowledgeable and tasteful that like has a genuine love for this stuff. And then there's a bunch of guys here in Chinatown that are buying because they can't afford a five seven. You know, and it's just I could tell you that I bought my my steel ninety six, which again was steel brigay, because I couldn't afford another watch. Uh you know, couldn't afford uh whatever a five centy. And it was, you know, steel and it was brigay and it was kinda rowdy and cool looking. Um and so I mean I I definitely get the appeal of them. And again, I've owned them. Um, but it's uh it's not a watch that I'd be dying to buy again. |
| Tony Traina | Yeah, you know, to your point, and maybe we'll close out the the 96 conversation here and get to the real stuff as as Ben is like itching to do. Uh some of my favorite watches when I went to we went to the paddock museum and we discussed this on the show a few weeks ago, but just when they show up at auction two, are these complicated 96s? So the world timers, the calendars, like the last emperor's watch that we saw at Phillips last year that went for five or six million dollars or whatever it was. These are like super early complicated paddocks with you know these Victorian Piget movements oftentimes really sort of important early complicated watches from paddock but to your point these are the types of things that the serious collectors as you're calling them kind of do go after and tend to like really format auction because of the the historical importance beyond them just being a a ninety six |
| Ben Clymer | . Yeah, and I want to be very clear, complicated ninety-sixes are are a totally different animal than color trust. You know, I mean that we're talking about like the absolute peak of the peat of of PATEC collecting. We're talking about like the the |
| Tony Traina | last or something. In nineteen thirty eight is kind of when we start to see the next generation, if you want to call them that of paddocks or of calatravas. So that's when the 565 and the 570 are introduced. I think the main appeal uh as you're referencing Ben is is that they're larger. They're 35 millimeters basically. The 565 has a two-piece waterproof case by Rich and my favorite case maker, perhaps Borgell. And then the the 570, of course is just bigger. Draw is on a lot of the original design cues of the 96, but it's just a bigger watch. And again, you'll find them in all types of metals, but these are the real deal vintage paddock calatravas that that people collect. Uh uh Ben, take it away here, because these are the these are the ones, right? |
| Ben Clymer | To me, if you said what's a calatrava, it's five seven. Like that is a coladra. Uh go going back to what one of you said, like flat case, the lugs are there, uh simple, very simple. Five seventies are are are amazingly fun. As I've said, weirdly never owned one, have tried to buy one, you know, to to find the right one many times but they can be insanely boring watches and i think the the watch that i think is still one of the best values but also just like has never done it for me is the white gold 570, which like you would think I would love or you would think people would love. And people some people do love them. And again, don't take my, you know, I'm not trying to influence anybody here. But a white gold 570 is just like it is a boring watch. And I think it's because the dial is like silvered instead of like a creamy white, so it doesn't it doesn't kind of patine and age the way that that other dials do. Um having said that, a yellow gold 570 is beautiful. Obviously, platinum steel have have a lot of charm. The the steel 570 is is again that that's kind of where my mind goes when you say the word color trauma because you get a lot of the dials of the 96, which bigger um you know there can be two-tone, three-tone, what have you, brigade, non-brigade black dials, uh double size, et cet.era Um and the 565, I think a 565 can be equally compelling to a 570 in many cases, actually in some cases even more compelling, but those are watches where if if they're polished, I don't want to say it all because that's extreme. If they're heavily polished or more than more than a little bit polished, you lose the the the specialness of the of the 565. It is the bezel, it is the lugs, it is the case back, um that watch. So I think uh you know those are slightly more susceptible to being uh being I don't want to say destroyed, but being kind of made less desirable by buying over polished. Whereas a five seventy, if I saw a polished five seventy and it wasn't polished but had an amazing dial, I would I would still be attracted |
| Tony Traina | . Rich what say you about the I want to call this almost the golden era of the Calatravas. We're we're entering it at least, I would say sort of as we get through the forties and then especially the 50s, I I would say. What do you what say you, Rich |
| Rich Fordon | ? Yeah, I would agree with that statement. I think I'm much more a five six five guy than a five seventy. Um I thought we were gonna have a bit of an argument with Ben and I there, but uh the five seventy in white gold is one of the most boring watches that I've ever seen in person. I wanted to like it. It's just so much dead space on that dial, I think, and like Ben was saying, the silvered finish. Just does almost nothing in person. And yeah, the it's very hard to find a dial that's attractive in that watch as well. So I definitely lean towards 565s more. I think there's less dead space on the dial on a call of Drava when especially when they're that old and the condition of the dial is so hard to find a very, very good one. You can step down the tick in condition in terms of dial in a watch like a 96 or a 565, much easier than you can step down in a 570 and get something that's still attractive. Um, because of the larger dial surface of OI70, I think it's very hard to find one that's actually attractive. Uh but SYM a 565 guy. Also the case, I mean, I love four yellow cases, |
| Ben Clymer | as as we all the the the the the case is great. I mean it's definitely more I hate to use the term but it's like it's I was sort of say more masculine, but it's definitely sportier. Like it it feels obviously and was a precursor to 3470. Um it it feels like a bit of a sports watch, especially on if you put our bracelet. And you know, there are there are particular five, six drives out there that have always kind of struck me as like, wow, these are these are amazing. Jason Singer has one. We published it in her magazine a few years ago. There's some black dial ones, et cetera. Um, but having said that, if you go and look at our talking watches with Alfredo Paramico, he has three 570s that are three tone brigade, you know, kind of crazy dials, those are just kills. I mean, those are watches that I would sell the farm for for sure. And so when a 570 is really good, it's really good. But you're talking about like mid-six figures for those watches. And even back then. Uh and so it like it takes it from like a Calatrava in my mind should be, you know, I don't say inexpensive because all the stuff is expensive, but like it's not like you have to like take out a second market on your house to buy, but with those watches, I'd want wood. Um and so then it's like, okay, if you're gonna spend half, I'm gonna say half a million bucks in one, do you buy that or do you buy a 1580? Do you buy a 6970p and J, you know? Um then of course we're talking about people that probably have both already. Um, but at a certain point, like money |
| Rich Fordon | is money. Can you talk a bit more about wanting to buy a five seventy for a long time and never actually landing on one? Like does that reference then become only those really special things for you and nothing else will suffice? |
| Ben Clymer | It it's so tricky because like the the the five seventy white, as we said, it's just kind of like a bo I don't say boring launch, but it's like it doesn't excite me. And there are a lot of them. Like if you go on, if you Google the right now, you can find five good sale right now, maybe even box and tape. The watch that that that kind of like overrode that that boringness to the point of desire for me was a 570 P, of which there are way fewer, obviously. And those were, you know, four times the price, but you know, a hundred times the rarity or ten times the rarity. And those were really attractive to me, even though they were also kind of silver toned dial, not super attractive dial. But it was so sleeper. It was so under the radar in platinum that they it it kind of came back around and kind of made me want it. But the the 570s though that I've always wanted were steel. Yeah and I've come incredibly close uh to housing sign ones. I I never really came close on like a two-tone or a three-ton were. They always out of my price point. Um and there's so few of them, right? I mean, like, you know, we're talking a small hand. So it's not like I have a chance every season to pick one up. Um but yeah I've just I've never I've never done it. And again, I I still might someday. And if I do, you guys will be forced to know. I have owned a five six five and I loved it. And it was a it was a multi tone dial. Um and I think, you know, I was probably I probably really wanted the the multi tone dial in a five seventy but could couldnn't't find any or couldn't afford it, so I bought the 565. And and that only mail watch changed my my entire opinion on on those two references. And now I'm probably in the camp of 565 over the 570 until I find that amazing mint five seventy that I've always wanted, you know, that the the they are they wear larger, they were flatter, which to me is is a called drama. It's like a dinner plate, I noticed, you know? Um and they are they're quintessential. So I'm open to five seventies. I just haven't found the right one at the right time |
| Tony Traina | . You know, the one other reference that kind of comes up in this era that almost I don't want to say splits the difference between these two, but kind of brings elements of both and then is a much better dial design in general, I would say. Uh at least on the good ones, it's the 2508 or 2509. So 2508 is center seconds, 2509 is sub-seconds. This one, you know, kind of like the 565, but but different in the sense it it at least has a Borgel case and waterproof case. But to me, it solves some of the problems of the 570 dial because the dials are a lot. Oftentimes you'll see them with these nice, like applied square numeral markers that are just a lot prettier uh and they use that sort of dead space that the calatrava is famous for the simplicity if we're going back to one of rich's criteria for a for a Calatrava. Uh, does does this watch do anything for you guys? Yeah |
| Ben Clymer | , the these watches are really neat because you get variations, right? I think the one that I have here had was luminous. You know, so you get luminous hands, luminous style, you get different tones on the bell. The 2508 and 09 really does have some variants. And and and frankly, they they were so much less expensive for the longest time relative to the 570. They were kind of an afterthought. And I never really understood why. They were a little bit smaller, I guess. Um, but yeah, they they were really, I mean, when I bought this one here, and that I just messaged you guys, nobody was paying attention to these at all. And even still, I would say they still don't get a lot of attention um because the 570 and 565 are just kind of so much more easy to understand. But they they are attractive mostly, I think, because of the the potential for luminous components |
| Rich Fordon | . Yeah, I agree. I think the 2509 is like among the reference we've been talking about so far. I'm a little large to wear a ninety six and five oh six five might be out of my budget perpetually. But twenty five oh nine is where like I would likely spend my money in this range. Um I think it's a great, great looking watch and it's a little more niche, obviously. Um, Ben's sort of discussion about why he hasn't bought a 570 intrigues me because I think a lot of people can get lost in this range with either a 96 or a 570 or even a 565 of rarity of dial variants and base metals. And you sort of can spin yourself out in this process of then never owning one like then because you start to learn about what is rare and rarity becomes such a part of their search. And you also want condition. Ben obviously wants good condition and will buy something if it's not attractive. So it's very easy to get lost and then never actually buy one of these references because you're looking for some certain dial type or case metal. And I think that actually kind of hurts the entire reference then and the collectability of all these things. |
| Ben Clymer | I I I I totally agree. I mean, I think again, like the five seventies that people tend to think of are bright, you know, black or multi-tone, and it's like those those watches are impossible to buy. You know, and half the black ones are fake. You know, half the the the ones with multi-tone are you know are in collections in Italy that we probably won't see for another five or ten years. Um, you know, they they are just so rare that as we say rich, I think very rightly, like it kind of I don't want to say it it dilutes the the specialness of of the non-special dials, if that makes any sense. You know, again, I think we we've agreed that silver tone, white gold is not the most attractive, but if you get one that is a it can be, I think a yellow gold five seventy is is really compelling to me. Like if you said what's what's the five seventy that you're gonna buy in the next 24 months? I would probably say it's gonna be a main 570 in yellow goal. Um I'm not chasing for one, but if I found a really great one with a with a nice aged aisle, I I would do it |
| Rich Fordon | . Yeah, I think those factors that might hurt the ninety-six of the five seventy actually help the twenty-five oh eight and twenty five oh nine because there's not somewhere you can go and read and say, Oh, there are fifteen steel burger twenty-five oh nines. Like that information doesn't exist unless you're really, really into the tech collecting. And I think that actually helps because then someone can just go out and buy a 2509 J when it comes up and be super happy with it and not be like, ah, I love the watch, but I wish it had burglars and there's 50 of those like there's a hundred of mine. That makes it less desirable to me. Like that, honestly, after a while, that sort of information being so prevalent in this area of col |
| Ben Clymer | lecting kind of sucks. Yeah, and I I think also my my guess is we'll probably get there. It's like I think the two references that that I don't consider color travels, but I do love, kinda have eaten their lunch in some way, which would be the twenty five twenty six, which everybody knows in the paddock world and the three, four, seventeen. And those are all of those are special. Whereas not every five, seven, or ninety six is spe |
| Tony Traina | cial. Is it the case? This is exactly where I was going to go next, Ben, because we're kind of encroaching into in the early 50s when the twenty twenty five six is introduced and then the thirty-four seventeen, which is the the amagnetic, but in in many ways is just a souped up sporty calatrava in in many ways. Uh some may argue with whether or not it's a calatrava, as with the 2526 which is fine but maybe it's it's just uh is it just the case Ben in terms of or rich when it comes to collecting some of these watches we were talking about you know expensive 570s and 2508s and everything we've been talking to up until this point. Uh people are just drawn to the references that I just referenced there, the 2526 and the 3417, because they're a little bit later, they're a little bit more modern in some ways, they're a little bit more perhaps well understood. I'm I'm not sure if that's true, but these what these references seem to be the ones that people glom on to consistently. Uh and obviously they kind of have the price and auction results to prove that as well, I would say. I |
| Ben Clymer | think you nailed it. I just again I just think it's they're they're a little bit easier to understand. They there are less variants there. If you really cut down to it, there's probably the same, but like we're talking about like microvariants. And uh I I think the 2526 has has a has a little bit I don't want to say a better of a story, but a story that's a lot easier to understand being the first self-winding in the camel dial. Like there there's inherent value there that's very easy to see. Whereas a time only being manually went on PATEC, uh, you know, how is that much better than uh an AP time only watch or even a long gene time only watch, which looks exactly the same. You know, and I think like that that's a challenge with uh the 570s and 5565 is you have you know these case makers are doing the same thing and end dial makers do the same thing for for many inferior brands. Whereas the 25-26 and the 3417 look and are so different than anything else, right? Like Rolex have the baton on uh on the self-binding watch for a while. And so when Pat that came out with theirs, it was just so high-end and so special. Then you have the enamel bow, which is big uh in the and then the magnetic but that script on the dial is everything. And obviously there are other watches from Pathek with a magnetic calibers, the same caliber, but that script makes everything. And that is just such a neat aesthetic flourish that um that basically all five seventies are missing. Whereas every thirty-four seventeen or almost every thirty-four seventeen uh has it |
| Rich Fordon | . Yeah, I think that's right, particularly about the twenty-five-twenty six. Uh it's very well understood. I mean, there's a lot of information written about it. And like I was talking about the 96 or the 570, it's easier to allow yourself to own a nice 25-26, no matter the you know, series or generation dial type case metal because it's so great on its own. Whereas I'm not saying you can find a watch similar to a 96 from long jeans. You can't do that with a 252-6. So I think the process of becoming an owner of a 25-26 is much easier and more enjoyable because basically just have to find a case that's not too polished, although it's pretty rounded. If it's polished a bit, kind of can't really tell unless you've seen a bunch of them. And a dial that's not cracked. Like if you can tick those two boxes, you have a great watch. And there's more boxes to tick with these earlier watches, which kind of yeah, depends on who you are, but it can it can hurt the collecting community a |
| Tony Traina | bit. Beyond the size, whenever I see your try on a twenty five, twenty six, thirty four, seventeen in person, I'm just reminded how sort of uh I don't want to say modern, but like how modern and robust they almost feel, right? I mean, obviously there's the automatic movement on the 25-26, and I don't know, they're you know, screw down, screw down or screw back case and all these things, right? It's uh it feels as though it's just like a stepwise sort of improvement on the feeling of these watches versus a lot of the the references we've been talking about up until now, which just on yeah, on their face, like the 570s, snap bad case, the 96, too small. You can kind of they're all missing something, and then this is the first generation where they're where they it's everything the modern collector wants in a lot of wa |
| Ben Clymer | ys. Yeah, I I I think I think you nailed it. And and you are correct, right? Like the 25-26 was was the holy grail time only watch for for protect leap, right? An ammo bottle self-winding movement, blah, blah blah. And then thirty-four seventeen was kind of the opposite of that. It was wholly real another way. It was a highly technical watch, the magnetic, new movement, and high precision. Um and you know, you have to i it's it's obvious, but it needs to be said, like these watches came out effectively a generation after the the color travel you're talking about. And like just think about a 3970 to a fifty-two seventy today. You can argue that 3970 is better proportioned, but if you look at the movement of the fifty two seventy, it it it blows the Lamanniania stuff out of the water. You know, and if you look at a a a a long A in from the nineties versus anything from the seventies, like you're just talking about like a step change quality. And so when you are to tech and you also, you know, when the when the ninety sixes and five seventies were from Africa a war or two that that they're dealing with, you've got effectively the border of bankruptcy. Uh and like these watches were were made in a really trying time, whereas in the nineteen fifties, you know you're coming out of the war, you're coming into this kind of golden age of of you know what we would now call like luxury production or high quality production. Um, and you know, we're just talking about a lot more resources going into all these problems. |
| Tony Traina | Ben, maybe the the answer just changes depending on how you feel on any given day, but twenty five, twenty six or or thirty four, seventeen, you have a preference? It's it's I mean it's not even splashing. It's twenty five seventy |
| Ben Clymer | . It's like that that's that's my favorite watch, I think. You know? Well just period period end favorite watch. Yeah, I I think so. I mean uh again I'm you know my my belief is that is part of the reason why I love the the retchup retch up uh chronometer two is is like it really reminds me of a twenty five twenty six obviously not sub-liming, but similar style case, enamel dial, you know, time only, really high end. I think they're I think they're perfect things. And you get a good one with a good dial and it's it's it's hard to beat. 3417s, I I'll own one currently. I've owned a bunch of them. They are really, really neat. Uh but uh 25-26 is is just a favorite for me in so many ways. And I like that it kind of runs like to me, a college job should be hand-wound, right? In in my opinion. And the 25-26 is not. And and maybe that's why I like so yeah, 2526 for me over 347 |
| Tony Traina | . Rich, last year you wrote what I would call a a pretty good article for us uh about underrated calatrava references a lot of them were from this era actually that we're kind of talking about right now the 1950s i'm not sure if you recall this article or if you you want to talk about it a little bit but, I'm curious, number one, some of the underrated references from this era, and then uh just just why you think they're kind of underrated |
| Rich Fordon | . Yeah, I think I talked about the 2508 and 2509, the 2525s, and like two five five one, a couple others. Obviously, I think where we were talking about dial variants and different case metals and like you can within the 96 or the 570 get or the five six five get a bunch of different looks out of one singular reference in this era especially after the two five two six and that movement comes out the is starting to offer a bunch of different looks in the Kala Drama family, which it's not at yet, but a Caladrama esque watch fits my criteria, but not Ben's. Um, that looks a bit different, has a bit different lungs, is a bit flatter, is a bit smaller, is a bit larger. Like there is there's a lot of variety in this in this range. Um I can vol that I did take some notes. That is every reference uh uh before before like the late eighties, the amount of these that start with twenty five or twenty-four is just endless. And I probably don't even have them all like I was just writing those down and doing a quick search this morning. That list is like 80 references. And what's so great about this whole generation is a tech outside of a single reference playing around with different looks for different customers who want something a little more stylized or something automatic, something manual, like you can pretty much find everything you would want um within this range, whether they made it in 50 examples or 500, like good luck. I hope the one that you like is 500 and not 50. Um, but yeah, I think that's what I find so charming about this era as opposed to the 96 and the earlier era, is just that you get that variation within different reference numbers and they're much obvio |
| Tony Traina | usly very varied. Buddha thought yeah to your point this is kind of when you're tell trying even trying to tell the story of the pad at Kalatrava, this is where it gets pretty muddled. They start to do a lot of different things. Wrist round wristwatches in particular become more popular, wristwatches in general becoming more popular, and everyone is wearing them. But I'm curious from your point of view, do you have sort of one or two favorites outside of that sort of the headline references that we've talked about? You have one or two favorites of of this era, call it 50s, 60s. That uh uh maybe they're underrated or maybe they're just watches that rich wants to give a little bit of additional shine to |
| Rich Fordon | ? Uh I'm glancing over to my list and trying to remember what they all are. It's a bit later, but I really like the 3558. It looks like a date dress. This is one where if anyone is doubting my Kaladrava definition, you will hate this pick because it's not a Kaladrava. It's very far from Ben's definition of a Kalabdrava, but it fits all of my criteria. So screw it. It's a call drava um I think this watch is really cool it's looks like an oyster case from paddock um so hey that's what I'd call out other than that the 2550 watch as mentioned in my article. I mean, I wrote that article a year ago, maybe more, um, where I called out a lot of my favorites from this era. So I'm just gonna be rehashing those things. But um yeah, I think the one more to add |
| Tony Traina | out would be the 3558. Yeah, I was going to single out the 2551. Just a great reference. 35, 36 millimeters, if I had to guess, but it's got that first automatic movement. So it shares that DNA with the 25-26, but it's got these nice stepped lugs, stepped bezel, nice little elegant case. And it's it's somewhat large for the for the era, I suppose. But uh yeah, just a great reference. So |
| Rich Fordon | not gonna argue with it. Large, large and flat which makes it wear even larger um I think that's what makes that watch so special but and the stepped architecture I think it just kind of like flattens everything out and uh it wears wears amazing. So what what's the difference between twenty five fifty one and a fifty-two |
| Ben Clymer | ? Twenty-five fifty-two, fifty one. I don't think it's just the case. Slightly different case |
| Tony Traina | . Yeah. Got it. The fifty-two you also uses that same first automatic movement, but the 52 has this wider sort of disco volante case almost. Uh or better |
| Ben Clymer | at least. The the 52 has always been appealing to me as kind of like the the other 2526 without the enamelet. You you've seen and historically there have been like platinum ones with diamond dials and a bracelet. There's a Tiffany one at Phillips not too long ago. But for whatever reason, there seems to be a lot of like attractive variants on the twenty five fifty-two out there |
| Tony Traina | . Ben, does the 2577 do anything for you? For diehards in the podcast, we talked about this briefly because there was one at Phillips Geneva a month or two ago. This is the one it's a it's an enamel dial. Uh kind of the one of the only few, you know, Calatrava enamel dial watches after the 25-26. The main difference is it's got a manual line movement. And then the lugs are kind of more just angular, like uh I don't want to say 3448-ish, but kind of in a way. It kind of is. Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely got stuff for me for sure. That's feeling things. That's what we like to hear. 30 minutes into the show. Feeling something. |
| Rich Fordon | Yeah. No, it looks good. I was just uh just chatting the office with Mark uh Tony, your fellow editor. Um, and he said that that would be his his pick of any call Java from this era. So I thought lob it towards them and see if see if you could see if you could hate on Mars Pitt with that backfire |
| Tony Traina | . Memory. No, that's that's a good one. Ben, you know, you mentioned the 530 briefly a few minutes ago, and we kind of cruised on past that. One of the rarest Calatrava references. Anything else you want to add there? I mean, I think it's like a couple dozen of these ever that were ever made in the time only variant. So the 530 reference, it shares a reference and is most commonly known as the uh as a chronograph reference actually kind of just an usized one thirty chronograph but rarely seen are these five thirty time only calatravas as well and as we'll get to at the end here actually. Uh at least two of the five biggest time only Calatrava results that I kind of copied and found just coming through some auction results earlier today and yesterday are are 530s. So these are real collector fare. Is that right, Ben? Ye |
| Ben Clymer | ah, I mean the the 530 is is holding whether it's a chronograph or the or the right. I mean it it's basically the bigger version of of either a 130 chronograph or a 570. Um either either variant of 530 to me is like the the leather laps are next to borrow a turn from from people here at the office. Um 530 black dial brigade is I think one of the most expensive time-only watches ever sold. Uh I believe it was Phillips C |
| Tony Traina | al Plock. Yeah, so that's the one I have that as on the list as the second most expensive time-only paddock Calatrava. Yeah. What's the church? Philips Geneva. Phillips Geneva sold this the 530 with brigade numerals, lacquer dial, black lacquer dial for 1.4 Swiss in 2016. And since we've already passed it, I'll I will give you the the number one Ben also sold by Philips in 2021 is the Cala Travone. So this is the steel paddock 570 with a two-tone uh silver dial and then black enamel brigade Nerumals that sold for 3.3 million Swiss. That's the most expensive Calatrava that I could find, followed by the Black Enamel uh brigade numeral 530. And then I've got a couple others that that maybe we'll get to here in a little bit. Uh but that kind of concludes the underrated paddock or the underrated Calatrava section of today's programming. After that, it really kind of gets messy. The story of the Calatrava, right guys? I mean, courts crisis happens. Uh, and then from there, the, you know, the 60s and 70s are are a little bit messy, I want to say almost. I have one reference I want to talk about that we already mentioned, but it kind of almost redefines what the Calatrava is, but I'm curious from your guys' perspective as collectors, client advisors, watch it, watch it aficionados, if there's any reference in this era that really stands out to you as as interesting or collectible. No, I know. It's kind of weird, right? There's nothing. Silence. Silence. Well, the one that really redefines the Calatrava is the 3520 that they introduced in the early 70s. So this is the gold calatrava that introduces the Abneo Clou de Paris bezel. Uh and that kind of would become one of the calling cards of the Calatrava. I mean, we're gonna we're gonna work our way to the modern Calatrava, the 6119, but it makes a callback to this reference. Rich, you mentioned the 3919, which replaced this watch, you know, just a few years later and then was produced for until the 90s for like 20 years. And this became in many ways the quintessential Calatrava of the 70s, 80s, early 90s, at least. And then as you mentioned, even as they kind of start to define the Kalatrava as a collection, they point to this watch as the Kalatrava, whether or not it has a specific link to to the reference 96 or not. This is kind of the the Kalatrava in in many ways |
| Rich Fordon | . Yeah, I think the silence before is just for me, this era of Cal Dravas and Patek in general, it just shows like a lot of commercialization of the brand. Whereas there was a lot of like charm in the previous generation and trying to find a foothold in terms of what they were going to use, a time-only round wristwatch, like who would but who would be the buyer? I feel in that generation previous they were searching for different styles and and so on. And in this generation, it gets very rigid almost. The cases are a little less interesting. We see more stark Roman dials as opposed to anything sort of applied or I mean there's some applied brigade in this area, but I I just see this area as they seem to have sold a lot of these watches and for me that kind of loses a lot of charm. They're it's like almost assembly assembly line paddocks, if there's ever one, which there aren't, but it has that feel versus the previous gener |
| Ben Clymer | ation. Yeah, I think you're totally right. And I think even they would probably, I don't know if they would make this publicly, but I think we we all know the situation, right? Like it's courts crisis. Like nobody's buying luxury products. Tony and I did a podcast that will air bubble time. This one airs with Lidj Fieldman talking about the Lennon watch. And like that watch was bought in 1980. I was born in 1982. Like try to find a good protect from 1982. Like you can't. The only good watch you might find from 1982 would be a 2499 that was made years before and sat in the case such as Land's Watch or Jemba Nautilus 3700 that sat in the case for for many years. Yeah the the 80s were just a dark period for for all this stuff uh it wasn't really until the nineties and then and basically the the this is funny coming full circle, kind of the foundation of Richemont in the early nineties with Batron and Jaeger and all that, that like high-end watch making kind of came back. Um, you know, so that the 80s were such a dark period where like they were trying to sell whatever they could at the highest margin site being possible |
| Tony Traina | . Yeah, and I mean just aesthetically speaking, the I'll I'll say the 3919 because that's the one that was produced for a bunch of years is is granddad's watch in a bunch of ways. I mean not my grandfather's, but you know, the uh, you know, America's grandfather or whatever, if you were a uh a j uh generally well to do guy, right? Yeah |
| Ben Clymer | . I mean it's it's it for me it's starting to have appeal. Like you know, I knew people, not that I knew people that had that watch, like my friend's dad, would have that watch in the 90s. You know, and it's like, oh wow. Like that and at the time that watch was crazy. I mean it was like so be and it is relative to a 2526 or something like that, it is, you know, definitely a more mass produced watch and a lower quality than even today. Um, but it was still such a special thing at the time, and potentially been the 80s, 90s definitely had a lot of catch it. Ye |
| Tony Traina | ah, totally. Well, you kind of this is what we talk about. It's not a dead period for the brand, but it's doing whatever it can to kind of survive. And then there is a renaissance of sort of watchmaking and traditional watchmaking in the 80s and 90s through the current day. I mean, depending on how you tell the story, but it this affects paddock in a lot of ways, right? I think we most closely associate this with things like the 3940, 3970 traditional complicated watchmaking, but it also started to kind of make more direct callbacks to its history in a lot of ways in the Calatrava line. So it introduces the 3796, which is like a true successor to the paddock 96, same size, exact same design cues. And then there are some other real traditionally sized calatravas it introduces throughout the nineties basically uh that look or at least are sized like a vintage watch. Uh, I'm wondering, Rich, if there are any references in the sort of this era, call it Neo Vintage, as we're as people have been starting to define it as, if there are any references of the Calatrava from this period that are are really compelling for you as sort of potentially collectible even |
| Rich Fordon | ? Yeah, where I sort of disparaged the eighties. I think the nineties show is like more willing to experiment with the cow drive, not really with everything. Like I think you called out previous the uh 3960, which is like an officer style case. There's also the 5022, which I called out on that same article. There's a lot of oddball watches from the same 990s era. It's also the time of like the Neptune, which I kind of define the 90s as ugly pet tech, but it's ugly in a way that they weren't just doing boring anymore. And I sort of like that. Like I sort of I have our I have a soft spot for the Neptune in a weird way. But that way of thinking is sort of pervasive throughout the catalog where they're doing things with a little bit more uh a little bit more experimentation, which is interesting as opposed to the 80s, where it was very like I said, boring |
| Tony Traina | . Ben, I'm curious if there's anything from your perspective that that is interesting from this era at all. Because I think like a lot of the conversation around this era, at least from collectors I see, is driven by honestly younger guys like me and Rich, maybe younger guys that are interested in this era because they kind of got into brigade or Blanc Pond or whatever it is in the neo-vintage era. Uh and then maybe they're not into the or can't can't quite afford the the real deal vintage paddock stuff. But there is a certain charm to this to this 90s stuff. But I'm wondering for for an a tried and true collector such as yourself, if there's if there's anything in this era that's compelling. |
| Ben Clymer | Yeah, there there are. I mean, like the the the 3718 uh is is a nice watch, uh, you know, which is like a little bit Call ofrav Tel, a little bit 2526. Um, I I've always liked those. Um, you know, I believe only available in in Japan. Um can you tell can you tell people what the watch is actually because this is one of my favorites as well |
| Tony Traina | . Sure. I mean it it's a s it's a steel watch and I believe it that had an ammo bile, right? |
| Ben Clymer | I don't know if they all did, uh, but I know that they do, and I think yes. |
| Tony Traina | Some of them do, right? Japanese. So |
| Ben Clymer | basically Japanese market stainless steel Calatrava that has a crown kind of like a 2526 and a and a dial markers in the 2526 main, um, but with a more five seventy kind of case. It's just a neat rare thing. And Pedek was doing things like that back then. You have like kind of market specific watches in particular for Japan. Um that's a neat one. Uh there's another one that's kind of like a mini twenty-five-26. I forget the reference number. Do you know which one I'm talking about? It kind of looks like a twenty-five, twenty |
| Tony Traina | six. You're probably talking about the thirty nine twenty three. Uh Google it real quick while I riff on it because I had a s to your point about market specific to your point about market specific watches. First of all, this is a great watch. It's a little small. It's like thirty two millimeters, maybe i'd have to look at this is yeah yeah great watch but to your point one of my favorite just modern ish paddock watches is a 3923 that they made in 35 pieces for a herod's. They produced it in uh for 150 years of Herods, whenever that would have been. I can't figure out the year right now, but it's this the the one I like, it's it's thirty n it's the thirty nine twenty three, it's yellow gold, but it's just got nice brigade numerals. And you don't see that with a brigade hands yeah yeah and brigade hands and you just don' |
| Ben Clymer | t they just don't do that that much in uh yeah so i'm I just quickly searched it and so 1999 was under years parents i mean that this really look this is a 2526 brigade, right? I mean, we've we've all seen the Warhol 25286. I mean, this this really is a mini 2576. That that's a compelling watch, no question |
| Tony Traina | . Yeah. Not an enamel dial, but other than that, the aesthetic is just right there. Uh but yeah, the thirty-nine twenty-three generally too is a cool |
| Rich Fordon | , cool little watch. I also call out the five thousand, which is very modern looking dial, but it's a thirty three millimeter case. It's I at least as far as I know, that first uh four o'clock subdial, like really it's like coming up with something new in the Sarah. Um really cool watch. It also became really popular, I would say, like three, four years ago and jumped up in price. Uh Tony, you touched on this earlier, but a lot of collectors like you and I, I think are looking to Sarah because it was a little cheaper versus stuff from obviously the 70s and 60s. So uh that isn't really all that much true anymore because like things like the Harrods watch he called out and the really rare Japanese stuff is going for a little bit larger money now. But um there's a lot of fun to be had for relatively cheaper sums in this era, too, with the 5,000, especi |
| Tony Traina | ally. It's funny you mentioned the 5,000. The story of that, that I think was confirmed actually recently in a Paddock magazine article is that this watch, you kind of alluded to the fact that it's a weird design off center subseconds dial at four o'clock. But the rumor for a long time was that this was designed for a potential collaboration with Ferrari in the 80s and 90s. And there was a quote given somewhat recently. I want to say it's in a paddock magazine article, which are only in print. Uh, but they confirmed this, and then the collaboration fell through for one reason or another. I can't quite remember why. I'd have to go back and look at the article. But Paddock was like, well, we already designed the watch. We started production, manufacturing, whatever it is. So we're still going to produce them. And it's turned into a full line from them really now. I mean, the 5000 has turned into the modern 6000 and seven in a lot of ways, these colorfulish dials, you know, colorful for paddock at least. Uh, but that kind of is going to end our discussion of the vintage Calatrava, if you want to call it that. And I think because of the time that we took to talk about the vintage Calatrava, surely we could have gone on. We didn't talk about all of the references. Uh sorry if we didn't get to your favorite reference. We'll get to it in a future episode, I suppose. I have to leave with one question though, and that is one Calatrava reference that you have to buy right now, which would it be? I think Ben we already know your answer, so you might as well just spit it out. Five seventy. Oh, I thought you were gonna say twenty five twenty six. I don't call drama. Oh, sure. Okay. Okay. Can we cover it? Well, hey, bringing this full circle. Bringing it full circle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh okay. Rich, your answer |
| Rich Fordon | . I would say 2526 because it's Caltrout for me. But uh 1578, which is the fanciest lugs I will allow on a Calt |
| Tony Traina | rop. Uh okay, we'll allow it for today. And look, because we ended our conversation in the 1990s, uh, I still have that Harrod's 3923 stuck in my mind. I have the 3718 Japan Edition stuck in my mind. The, you know, just having to steal Calatrava is not an easy thing to do. So I think watches like that are great sort of more I don't want to say budget minded picks because they're still in the mid teens, let's say uh the Herods is even more, but these are great watches to to sort of start your Calatrava journey, I suppose, that that are always just burning a hole in my brain. So we'll leave it we'll leave it there for today. Thanks to Ben and Rich for today's discussion. And thank you all for listening. Thanks of course to Vic Autominelli for editing the episode. And we'll see you all again next week |