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The Story Of John Lennon's Patek Philippe 2499 With Jay Fielden

Published on Wed, 3 Jul 2024 16:55:00 +0000

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Synopsis

In this episode of Hodinkee Radio, hosts Tony Traina and Ben Clymer interview Jay Fielden, veteran editor and writer who has worked at The New Yorker, Vogue, Men's Vogue, Town and Country, and Esquire. The conversation centers on Fielden's recent investigative piece in The New Yorker about John Lennon's stolen Patek Philippe 2499 watch, which represents one of the most detailed accounts yet of this mysterious timepiece that has captivated the watch world for over a decade.

Fielden explains how his interest in watches began working at Ralph Lauren stores in the late 1980s, where he first noticed vintage Rolex watches in the displays and advertisements. His journalistic instinct told him that watches were breaking through from niche coverage to front-page news, particularly after events like the Paul Newman Daytona auction. The Lennon watch story appealed to him as a "keyhole" into understanding the broader phenomenon of what has happened in the watch world over the past 15 years.

The article traces the watch's remarkable journey: given as a 40th birthday gift from Yoko Ono to John Lennon in 1980, just months before his murder; stolen from the Dakota apartment around 2006 by Ono's driver, Koshi Karsan, who was later deported to Turkey; its appearance at the startup auction house Auctionata in Berlin in 2014; and its eventual consignment to Christie's Geneva, where it has been held in legal limbo for years. Fielden's investigation uncovered never-before-published photographs of the watch and revealed the poignant inscription on the caseback. The piece required three years of reporting, interviews with key figures including Sean Lennon and photographer Bob Gruen, and navigating complex legal documents. Both Fielden and Clymer speculate that this watch could potentially become the most expensive wristwatch ever sold, though they express hope it will be returned to the Lennon family rather than going to auction.

Transcript

Speaker
Tony Traina Welcome back to another episode of Hodinky Radio. Our guest today is editor and writer Jay Fieldon. Jay is a media industry veteran, having spent time at the New Yorker, Vogue, and Men's Vogue before becoming editor-in-chief of town and country. From there, he took the same position at Esquire from 2016 to 2019. He's even contributed to Hodinky a few times over the years. We invited Jay on to talk mostly about his recent excellent piece, The Strange Journey of John Lennon's stolen Tech Philippe Watch, which appeared in the June 24 issue of the New Yorker. It's the most detailed account yet of the Lennon 2499 that has remained mostly a mystery for decades. He traces the story, talks to the people, and even found some never before published photos of the paddock given by Yoko Ono to Lennon for his fortieth birthhday, just monts before he was murdered. Also joining our conversation is our very own Ben Clymer. So without further ado, Jay, how are you doing today? Excellent, man. Great to be with you guys. Thanks so much for coming on. Ben, first of all, let the people hear your voice. How are you doing today, too
Ben Clymer ? I'm doing great, Tony. I'm very excited to be here. Uh, I've known Jay a long time. His intro didn't really do justice to who this man is. This guy is the best dinner guest you could have at any party uh at all times. Uh just a legendary New York media guy and and and so happy that this story was was kind of brought to life through through you and the New Yorker of all places. I mean what an amazing outlet for for a watch story, you know? Thank you, Ben. That's very, very kind of you. I really appreciate it. And you're not so bad to dinner.
Tony Traina No. Appreciate it. Jay, it's it's a long time coming, I'm sure. Uh what's what's the feedback been like in the week or so since it's been published online and then obviously put in in print subsequent to that
Jay Fielden ? Extraordinary. I to say, I mean, I like I say I anticipated a lot just because I knew that uh how how much interest there was in this this watch in particular, and obviously John Lennon um outside of that and and get getting some of the stuff that I got to I I I I felt it would it would pique people's interest. But you know I it being in the New Yorker, obviously the New Yorker process of you know getting it right and and the editing, uh I had a great editor there named Susan Morrison, somebody I've known for a long time, who really took it under her wing. And um it's it's you know, I pretty much heard from everybody I wanted to hear from, if you know what I'm saying. Like you have your you have your thoughts as a writer. You think, I hope this rings their bell, you know, and it it rang a lot of bells. I I heard from you know people, certainly many, many magazine people, writing people, people in the book world, the the movie world, the documentary world, um you know, just people that I admired in the past who who are writers or editors of things like that, um, really enjoying it. And and, you know, I knew it would break the barrier of of of of the watch uh wall so to speak it would it would it would push through that which is what interested me in the story in some ways at the beginning is i wanted to tell a watch story but i wanted to tell a story that would be emblematic of the moment we're in with watches or have been in over the, you know, really Ben's career is I think sp spans the time that I think is very fascinating in watches in terms of what happened uh with watches from, you know, roughly oh eight up until now. And I wanted to find this quintessential story that would somehow be a you know a a keyhole into a lot of it. I don't I don't think I got to everything in the four thousand words that I was allotted, but but I got to touch on those and I certainly did a lot of other reporting and research which took me into the highways and byways of of of the narrative
Tony Traina . Before we get completely into the Lennon story, uh Ben mentioned a media industry veteran legend, really, 30 plus years in the business. I'm curious though when watches come into play for you. Just your story with watches, your connection to watches throughout your life. Yeah. Well, it'
Jay Fielden s so much of this story is serendipitous in terms of the way it echoes backward into previous experiences or relationships or friendships or things like that. And I and I'll touch on those as we go along. But but one of them would be, you know, I grew up in San Antonio in Texas, and I uh as a high school kid, I worked in a polo shop there, one of the early, early polo shops uh outside of New York. I don't know why, but you know, Texans love Ralph Lauren. And I loved it at the time. This was the you know late 80s. And so I got a job there. Um and I immediately, you know, noticed one of the things that Ralph did, as you guys probably remember, was um there there were were there were vintage watches for sale um at at the stores and um vintage watches in the in the ads, you know, the bubble backs especially and the duodial Rolex. Most, most of the stuff was Rolex, but th those two eras, a kind of art deco era. And I immediately noticed that in the ads. And then when I worked in the shop, a couple of the watches came through. And, you know, when I later got to go to New York and then went to school in Boston and all that. I I worked again at Ralph Lauren during college in Boston and same thing. So I I was noticing these watches. I didn't go into it like, oh man, I want to know everything about this. I mean I didn't know there was that much to know about it. I just knew a a bubble back Rolex was beautiful and and a Rolex is a beautiful thing. And so I I started getting interested then and it it led me to want to go to flea markets and buy the vintage watches I could afford at the time, which were like the Venerous uh models that I wrote about for you guys not so long ago, things like that. And and now I'm back working at Ralph Lauren again. I'm the kind of the the editorial director um by way of contract. I'm a freelance guy there, but I do a lot of work for them. So it's funny that it just comes back around. You know, the things that like really bit you when you were a kid, for me at least, have lasted that whole time. And then this gave me a chance to really realize in the last, you know, being the editor of Men's Vogue, being the editor of Town and Country, uh Esquire, that obviously we covered watches. When we were covering watches at Men's Vogue, I think, and Ben would probably remember this a bit, it there was a little bit of a sense of like, are these things going to continue to be of interest? Um I that was the first time that I got to go to um what was then called SIHH and see the you know intense community of of people who love these things and produce these things. And I loved it, but I I I felt at the time that it was very much a a little bit like bespoke tailoring, which was going through the same thing, um, there was a feeling that it it was it was in the nursing home. It was gonna be over pretty soon. Um and then suddenly, you know what? No, it wasn't over. And and uh it it scot it it kind of rocketed even further. So watches was always in the back of my, you know, not say in the back, but it was it was always around in terms of the editorial stuff we did. I had really expert guys who wrote about it, knew the the the numbers and the, you know, the reference numbers and things like that in a way that I didn't quite know. But I was in it and I began to really study it, learn the other marks, understand, uh, I think in a more sophisticated way what a great watch is, what a great looking watch is, and and it kind of just has continued to go from there
Tony Traina . I'm always curious for a guy like you who who ran Esquire Town and Country, worked at various other publications, watches are are but one piece of obviously the things that you cover there, uh part of sort of the lifestyle that that you guys cover. But for for a guy like you, what sets apart watches as like uh more interesting, I suppose even accepting the premise of this question, but but what sets them apart is more interesting and as we'll get into would make you even want to pursue a story about John Lennon's watch, which is kind of an esoteric thing, I suppose. Yeah. I I look I
Jay Fielden love them aesthetically. I love them as just a thing that is a luxury object, being careful about how to use that word. You know, I just was interested in them as things of beauty, you know, uh, a mystery of you know what you guys suffer from. I can't totally explain why why these things are enchanting, but they are. So there was that level of it. But then I also, you know, have always kept to try to keep a leg out of any of the the deep, you know, intense worlds that I go into, whether it was fashion or wine or or cars or or art or what have you, to to try to keep a journalistic eye on. And I've been around long enough to see moments arrive for certain subjects that in which those subjects break through the aficionado column in a newspaper or magazine and start to find their way onto the front page. And I think that began to happen with watches with the Newman auction uh and some other things, with the, I think, to be honest with you, with with the phenomenon of a of a thing like Hodinky, you know, becoming a uh not just a blog, but a business that people noticed, admired, wish they had started themselves, myself included, you know. So um see seeing things um like that, I began to think, okay, there's people out there who who know a little bit about watches. They know their granddad maybe had a cool Rolex that they inherited or their dad got or sent a safety deposit box. You know, these things are around enough as name brands that people are aware of them in general. But now you had things like what? You know, Paul Newman's watch going for $18 million. What was that about? The pricing on the secondary market became interesting. The Bloomberg subdial index became interesting people getting robbed for their watches became interesting it started become i i just felt it in my bones as a journalist this is a story people are going to want to understand and kind of just get a handle on whether they like whether they call themselves watch people or
Ben Clymer not. Yeah. And I think just opt in a little bit. I think from from my vantage point, like I look at like the moments that really made watches a a thing, and I mean, I appreciate those kind of words about Hodinki, but like putting that aside, like it was Apple Watch. Like when Apple Watch came out, to the to this day, the number one most popular story we have ever published was my initial review of the Apple Watch, the day it came out from Cooper T. And it's like that changed things for for the whole industry. And then absolutely right, Paul Newman's Paul Newman. And I really believe that that this, you know, this story, which is ongoing, and I'm sure you'll tell us in what ways, I think this has the potential to be the next kind of catalyst to put it to put watches even further. Like the fact that the like Paul Newman Paul Newman's watch I I I always viewed as singular because it's Paul Newman, it's Rolex, everybody can understand it. Like it made a lot of sense. And then it's all obviously for for so much money. I thought we were kind of done. Uh I didn't really realize that that the Lenin watch, which I've known about for a long time obviously like would have the way would would have some sort of way of taking things even further. The fact that it's a Patek Philippe, which like, okay, now people know what a Patek is. Five years ago, like I'm not so sure they did. Like before, you know, before COVID and before that, an autolis and an aquanut were like pretty esoteric things that were, you know, okay, you guys knew about it being in New York and Chicago and being into this world, but most people didn't really know what Patek is. Now I think they do because of these sports watches. But you taking it even further with Lennon's connection, and of course the 2499 being kind of it's the archetype of a watch, and like that is the watch, that reference. If it were any other watch, it might not be as so salient and so kind of like uh kind of uh frankly magnificent of the story. Um I really view this as, you know, kind of potentially what what pushes the the idea of what watches are into the the next phase of of
Jay Fielden growth. I think you're right about Patak and and and a couple of thoughts on that. One is I think yes, it's it's a brand you're aware of, or many people are aware, but it's a little bit like the violet flavored macaroon or something and when you go to Paris or you know that it's a stro it's a you realize it's a acquired tape a bit. You know, it's not like what you're you anyone, it's almost anyone could like I think a submariner. But Patek, I think, is a little bit the the designs are a little bit strange at first. I mean, perhaps in the sense that they're they're more unusual, uh unexpected. And I and that was part of what I was interested in too, obviously about the the the name what it meant in 1980 um of course one of the big questions i wanted to try to answer was why did yoko ono get this watch for john lennon, a man who I've seen wear a watch once in a photograph, and it was back in, I think when they were playing in Hamburg, and you know, who knows what it was, right? But never again did I ever see a watch on his wrist. So how did he not only end up with a patch, but end up with that one was one thing I really wanted to try to find out. And I wanted to understand it, especially during 1980, and kind of think about what was that watch then? You know, and I think I say something like it was a symbol of lockjawed taste, you know, I assume it was kind of like something, you know, that you would have seen John Hausman wearing in the paper chase or, you know, something, something, you know, or or or, you know, uh, in fact, I think it is in uh uh Dan Aykroyd where wears it in trading places. Doesn't he talk about Pentecost? I'm pretty sure he does, right? That's the kind of thing you might have associated it with, right? The same guy who wants to talk around about the weather in 1961 in Bordeaux was probably, you know, buying a Patek watch. Uh now that's different, wildly different, but it still left a real mystery of a question for me to try to answer about a guy like John Lennon ending up with one
Tony Traina . Jay, I I'm gonna ask you this question, Ben, I'll throw it to you as well, but how long have you even known about the the Lennon 2499? How long has it been a curiosity of yours? Jay, and then I I want to hear from you too, Ben.
Jay Fielden I think it wasn't when I was at Esquire. It was just looking, it might have been, you know, something around the time that Ben had written a piece for you guys. I think 2015, 2016 of kind of the, you know, the watches that we don't know or, you know, where they are kind of thing. And I know that was part of it. And then that that was obviously ping-ponged around. I mean whether whether it was the first I didn't I know it had been started to be mentioned around oh nine or ten, but you know it started it's just one of those things that occurred again and again you probably remember it was it was a little bit maybe even of a clickbait uh thing when when you didn't have any else anything else to write i mean i don't mean you but i saw it in gq i saw it in le monde saw. I it over and over and over again. Any opportunity to to somehow say a little something about that watch and use that photograph that Bob Grew and took um was there was reason to do it and and reason for me to be interested in the in the sense of like I couldn't believe the the the photograph never got credited. You know, I mean we live in this age of of this going on, but it being at Escore, I knew things like GQ running that photograph without crediting it was strange. Lamont running that with it, it was strange. You know, big, big, big news organizations don't let that kind of stuff slip through the crack. So I I didn't get it. It was one of the things I just was like, I want to know who took the photograph. And that's where where it really began with me. I'll just try to find out who took the pic
Ben Clymer ture. For for me, um I remember very clearly where I was when I first heard about it. I was at the SO house in in New York in 2009, 2010, back when SO House was like, you know, I I thought it was pretty cool being at Seo House back then. I was with a guy named Charles Turle, who at the time was running Antiquorum uh in New York, I believe. And he was one of kind of my my first friends at vintage watches. And he said, buddy, you gotta you gotta see this picture. And he pulls up this picture of John Lennon, that picture of John Lennon with a 2499. And I was like, holy shit, like what is like what what is this? I thought it was a doctored photograph. Like, how could I have not you know like all I did back then was was hunt the internet for for pictures of cool people wearing watches. And I just couldn't believe it. And at the time, I mean we were still almost a decade away from locating Paul Newman's Paul Newman. So the idea of like a Lenin 2499 was just it it was unfathomable. And so you know that that watch like you, that that photo kind of like lived in the back of my mind until I put together that story. I just pulled it up. It was 2014. Actually it was 10 years ago this month that I wrote this story of like the great manacing watches. It included the Lennon 2499. It included obviously the uh the Newman Newman, it included Marlon Brando's Rolex from from Apocalypse Now, et cetera, et cetera. And you know, when I wrote that story, that was a story that that did incredibly well for for us on the site. And it's funny you mentioned the photo credit. I have image via Beatles photo blog, not the exactly. But but just the idea of that some kind of credit. I don't know. Yeah, it is a credit. The Beatles Photo blog is just you know crushing it on that. But the the idea again that like this watch existed, as you said, like 1980. So I mean just you know in in full clarity. So, like I was born in 1982. I have long wanted to own a Pitecalipe, a Rolex, and a Porsche from 1982. I I was able to buy a Rolex that I that I deemed worthy of me uh from 1982, but finding a Porsche or or a Petec Philippe from 1982 is next to impossible because it was an absolute dark point in the history of luxury goods, frankly. Like just nobody cared about Patek Felite, nobody cared about Porsche. They were all struggling at that point. So the idea of Yoko walking in, as you mentioned in the article, into a Tiffany and buying like what was absolutely one of the most expensive wash in the catalog in 1980 is just shocking. And again, if it were any other reference, if it was a Nautilus, it frankly wouldn't be that big of a deal. And of course the Nautilus was made in 1980, it wouldn't big of a deal. If it was anything else, just a chronograph or just perpetual, it wouldn't big of a deal. But the 2499 strikes that balance with people like me who love watches just as much as somebody would love pop culture, of just combining everything into one kind of perfect storm of a story. Yes. And look, I did talk to
Jay Fielden Tiffany, and even though they don't have records that are are are that specific, like they don't have the receipt from that era. But um there were very certain that they were more watches in that in that uh you know glass case that were Pat Tech watch watches that day um that summer that you know that that fall um uh so again that was uh one just you know chills up the spine man that thing was in the case okay sitting there number one right um but there were other things too that she could have said, oh, you know, why not that one? Why not this one? What why that? You know, why this? I mean, you know, the obviously I try to find that out and I found some things that aren't in the article that you know I couldn't confirm to the degree that the New Yorker would like that I may in the future. But you know, that that was obviously a great curiosity about why what led her eye to that particular watch
Tony Traina . You mentioned the photo and the crediting of the photo, which is kind of in a way how this story begins, and you eventually find that it was actually the famous rock photographer, basically Bob Gruen, who who took the photo, funny enough. Uh, and that's kind of where the story jumps off in a way for you, but I think you have a little sort of vignette almost from when you talked to him and just kind of what he remembers about about that evening, which which isn't much, but uh he he added a little bit of color and context from from the photo itself that we didn't have previously. So the way I just try to recon
Jay Fielden struct that I'm looking at this picture I'm thinking number one, I don't know. Was this it it looks as if it could have been a family snapshot, doesn't it? I mean that that there was that possibility. Could have been that. Um, maybe I'd never find who took it. So I just started thinking around that time, you know, I if we go this idea, which is interesting, that somebody did figure out it was a birthday gift. I'm not sure whoever figured that out and how they established that to be honest because why would they know that so i thought who would have been around at that time you know who who might know something i just literally made a list i started reading the biographies i started you know just trying to recreate almost like i i assumed somebody would in a murder investigation. Who who was around him? You know, who who would have been the one to give an alibi? You know? So I I tracked down the producer of the album Double Fantasy, which Ono had just finished. And it was this guy, Jack Douglas, who's also a quite a noted um rock producer, you know, did all the cheap trick stuff, did Aerosmith, all that kind of stuff. So I somehow got his email. I emailed him. He was he's very fast on email. He doesn't want to talk on the phone but he'll he'll email you all day long. And I emailed him the picture and I just said, You know what it took that? And like five seconds later, it came back. He said, Bob Gruin took that. So then I said, Do you have Bob Grew and email. I said, Yeah, here's the thing. You know, and he told me obviously, yeah, I used to swing by all the time in the hit factory. They recorded really late at night. I had an open invitation there. He photographed them a lot. So I, you know, it it was totally blown And then he, you know, said it, that kind of little beautiful thing where he'd been to somebody else's birthday party that night and he brought it, brought on some birthday cake. I mean, it's funny again, just telling you how little the the watch at that time was of interest to many people, where as he said, they didn't talk. He doesn't remember them talking about it. He remembers being very dazzled by the pen, the tie pen, which was made of diamonds and rubies and sapphires. Probably from Tiffany, though I couldn't, you know, everybody assumes it's Tiffany, and Tiffany has made a flat pen like that for years. But Tiff, it's hard to know whether it was Tiffany or not. It makes sense it would be. But so everybody was involved, you know, interested in the pen and the tie that Ono had had uh uh uh the tie that was uh uh uh resembled the one he wore as a high school kid in Liverpool and that she had knitted for him. That was kind of the what it was about. And even as I then followed up with with Jack Douglas about he wasn't even that impressed with his watch. He had the Porsche Chronograph one on, which would have been very cool at that time, right? So he thought he had the cool watch and that I imagine he looked at the the watch that John had and thought, God, you've got a granddad's watch. You know, you might as well have a pocket watch and wear a four-piece suit, you know. Trul
Tony Traina y. Before we get into the the story itself was there a part that was a piece of the puzzle that was particularly hard for you to sort of put together or or puzzle out
Jay Fielden the the part of like where it came from to begin with I just was interested in that I. wanted to know that A to Z part of the story. I wanted to know the genesis of it as well as the you know, the the the end game, so to speak. So that that was difficult, and I haven't f totally figured it out. I mean, when I talked to Sean Lennon, I don't think he knows why his mother got that watch in particular. Uh he wasn't evasive about it when I when we were talking. I just don't think it's something he's not particularly interested in watches or stuff. He's a lot like his dad, uh, as he even told me, and I'm even more extreme than my parents are. You know, his his thinking about them is that they didn't like, you know, quote unquote stuff, i.e. luxury objects. I mean they had some things, obviously,. You know he had some guitars, for instance. He had, you know, he had some nice things. But yeah, you don't think of John Lennon as a guy who was just, you know, living like a king, right? Beyond having, yes, apartments and people you know to work for you but you know what I mean he he he was not just um an acquisitive guy it doesn't seem like and Sean is is is not very acquisitive either so um I I couldn't crack that part. It it was obviously hard to find Mr. A. Um and it was hard to understand exactly, you know, I think there's more to do in terms of the two guys who have been implicated in stealing the watch. Um, I was not able to get to them. Um I I I think that they've they heard from me in terms of the way that I sent them messages, but they never responded to me. So um I think there's there's more to that story, that that part of the story. And then what happened to it exactly at Christie's, I think is also there's more there, um uh which I would like to find out
Tony Traina . Well, I wanna kind of just jump through all of those way stops almost, if we can, for the next little bit, because as you mentioned, it kind of starts with Carson, Mr. Carson, who was for for years and years uh Yoko Ono's driver, and he is essentially the one who is who is implicated in the original theft of the watch. And that's really where the story picks up in 2005-2006. Uh, and I think that's kind of where the story picks up for you as well, after the original photograph that that Bob Gruen took way back in the in nineteen eighty, I suppose
Jay Fielden . Yes. I mean I was able to figure out that after Lennon was killed, and I was told, and this you know, I couldn't confirm this, but this is interesting uh as you know in conversational uh in terms of conversational facts. I can't know it, but you know, I I I heard it from a couple of people uh that the that he was wearing the watch when he was killed and and uh you know i i i cautioned that being repeated as fact because i don't know it but uh it it i heard it from enough people to make me think that it's there's enough validity there to want to hunt it down uh to see if that's true. Um but I knew that after that happened the watch was basically put away in a mysteriously a quote unquote locked room um in the Dakota and it sat there, as best as I can understand it, for almost 25 years. And it was then in 2005, you know, fast forward 05, uh Yoko Ono has a driver at that time in her employee who had been her driver for almost 10 years at that point, which is a pretty long time to work for her. Um, a guy who was a Turk grew up in Turkey. Um, apparently, I've heard it from again from a few people, uh, might have been uh part of the Turkish Secret Service at some point, seemed to have skills. He was a big guy. Uh, you know, six two, six three, as I've heard him described. You can see pictures of him. We found found I some pictures of the two of them when he's you know acting as a kind of bodyguard, which he also claimed he was for her. Believable, he's a gigantic guy, least intimidating. Um they have they have a falling out. I I wasn't I didn't go into as much detail as I I can a bit now, but it it appears he he was grousing about having to be on call 24-7 for her and he didn't feel like he was getting paid the proper amount for the time he spent, I guess what you would technically call overtime. And apparently his argument had been that he had tried to address this with her a number of times that she basically ignored his angry at a at a certain point in I believe it's December of 2005 that he no December of no December of 2007 or six, okay. Uh, that he gets so angry he threatens her and says uh basically that he's and this touches on his possible, you know, uh uh intelligence service experience, he had been recording conversations secretly that she had been having and taking photographs of her as the story went. And threatened to expose these things to the public unless she paid him two million dollars. He was promptly arrested, um, arraigned, and several pretrial um hearings, um he he claimed some bizarre things, uh, you know, that he was her lover. She obviously denied that uh strenuously. Um he he said that she had ruined his life and you know he tried to kind of claim, I guess what he was claiming before that he was um an abused employee. Um I don't think either party was interested in in going through something like that um as a as a trial. So he was allowed to plead to a lesser grand larceny or extortion um uh and was deported to Turkey. When he went to Turkey, uh he took the watch and he took some other things with him at the same time that he would later claim were entrusted to him and he assumed were gifts. Um that's where the watch then leaves the United States, leaves the Dakota and goes to Europe. And I would just say that she will not know that the watch is gone from the Dakota for another nine years after that happen
Tony Traina ed. Did you uh I remember when I was looking into this, there are almost daily reports on the the whole ordeal between Ono and Carson around this time. It was you know kind of tabloid fair at the at the time. Did you learn anything else about their relationship or dig into anything else on that aspect of of the story? It's always been something that's a a curiosity of mine, if nothing else
Jay Fielden . Shaw Sean did say some things to me that I couldn't get into the piece. I mean, he he just remembered him and one description he gave him, and he said it could be raining or snowing and and we would be coming out to get in the car. And he um was always smiling at me no matter what was going on. And he obviously meant that in a in a wicked way. He didn't mean he was nice and friendly and you know made warm. He he he felt he was hiding something, uh a kind of Cheshire cat smile, I think is the way he was conveying that. And he just, I think it was clear he was scared of him and thought he was capable. As he said to me, he said, I didn't know he was capable, but I felt he was capable of doing something bad. And he went on again and again about the the advantage he felt that Carsan had taken of his mother, that you know, a small Japanese woman, as he put it, you know, elderly at that time, a widow and this big man who had been basically given an open invitation into their life um into all the apartments he had keys to all the different uh apartments they had there he had keys to this locked room, which came out later, and who took this kind of advantage of her. And he said to me, of all the different people who had taken advantage of them, and there were many, you know, there are a number of examples of people taking things from them, um, that this is kind of the most bitter in in his memory. Um so that's about as far as I could get with with with what went on. You know, but I think that gives you a sense of maybe you know i i did ask him this too i'll just i'll just add this he he made the point that most people who ended up working for his parents were were people that they ended up ac kind of just meeting he said people would come to to my to the apartment door knock at the door to deliver something or give us something or get an autograph or something like that and and and my parents say hey you're you you look cool you're nice you want you we have you know we need to we need some people to work for us it does kind of seem like that if you read uh you know who who was working for them they were kind of people that they just kind of you know i don't know thought were kind of cool or cool looking or something and and so he said you know my parents were so open they were so naive and i so i did ask him i said well then how did they how did car sand get hired? Be hecause's not a guy that was coming up for an autograph or taking a picture of Yoko Ono when she was going into the Dakota. Um, and he couldn't remember. And I I he said, you know, that's a good question. I I should know the answer to that. My sense is he was probably hired in some professional way. Like he just had the chops to be not only a driver, but a protector. And that was probably how it started. And why he was able to record all so many conversations surreptitiously. He had as I've heard and you know, again, Sean even mentioned it, he he he he he must have had some train
Tony Traina ing. When Karsan is deported to Turkey, the watch comes with him. The next time it it bubbles up almost to the public even is when it comes to kind of this startup y really auction house called auctionata in Berlin. Uh uh a a handful of years later. Uh if you could just kind of talk a little bit about how it got there. And then I think one of the things that you did was talk to the young, young at the time at least, specialist who was there, one Mr. Hoffman, I think, and sort of what what you learned from him about how they how they took the watch in and what they thought about the the Lennon watch when it when it came to their their door. So yeah, it goes to Tur
Jay Fielden key, Carsan reconnects, I think reconnects instead of connects with a with a man who was from his village, uh somewhere around Bodrum, uh, which is on the coast, very beautiful part of Turkey. Um, he gets interested in wanting to buy a house, but apparently doesn't have the full amount of money to buy it. He makes a deal with his friend who's known as Erhan G. I know who he is, but that let's use that name, Erhan G. Erhan G is a successful man uh who lives in Berlin, might have even owned the house that he sold to Carson. I'm not sure, it's unclear to me. But the point is Carsan can only come up with what looks to be around $500,000. He's he still needs another $250 to fully purchase the pro the the house. He decided he asks the friend if maybe this watch, the watch can be collateral for the remaining part of the debt. Um, the friend obviously agrees. The watch ends up in Berlin. Uh, this man, Erhon G, like I say, he's successful. He's got an apartment on Potsdammer Platz, which is kind of the center of Berlin, you know, I mean in other words, not an inexpensive place to live. He owns a successful business. Um the business which I don't name in the in the New Yorker, but is interesting to me, is a uh a refurbisher of shipping um uh uh pallets okay so this is where he's made his money and um he's got interest and an interest in watches. And I think he he begins a uh he he's kind of known, I think, you guys wanna understand this in the in the auction world, and this is partly what the piece starts to go into here, and I think it go a lot further is, you know, auctions, new auctions, old auction houses, whatever, they they identify the people who are interested in buying these kinds of things. I think this guy was somebody who was interested in that kind of stuff, had bought some stuff, not extremely expensive stuff, but maybe watches that were 30, 40,000 euros, something like that. Um, so he he has a, I believe, a relationship with auctionata. Um and at some point, it's unclear to me whether he owns the watch at this time fully, though I think he does, and I think that's what we go with. Um, he wants to sell the watch. So he bragged about it, I think, with with somebody who worked at auctionata one day. The way it was put to me is that they got drunk at a at a vintage car event. Uh, and one of these guys who was a big deal at auctionata at the time, palled around with him that night, and Erhan G ends up mentioning that he has this watch that was John Lemon's. Um, and so pretty soon after that, the watch is consigned to auctionata. Auctionata at the time is yes, as you described, I think what Christie's and Sotheby's have turned them mint selves into now, basically. They just did it too fast and they did it kind of perhaps not as uh by not following the guidelines they should follow. But you know, they were a darling in Germany. I mean, they you know, the j the German press at that time talks about auctionata as if it were um NVIDIA today or something like that. You know, this is like a big deal. This is you know one of the hot dot coms and you know they're gonna reinvent the auction business and you
Ben Clymer know we we actually started in a row we actually worked with them extensively when they were around so they they did they were one of the I think probably the first to do like live auctions like people would be on camera saying here's the Patek twenty four ninety nine and be like circling and it would be like a live feed while they were checking while they were taking bids. We I mean I I'm actually just searching my own my email from I I I conversed with with with Hoffman many times. Oh, you did? Oh yeah. No, many. I mean, look, they were, you know, like they were around. We were it's uh they were they were really, really hot, and then they went to zero very quickly. What about Alexander Zaki
Jay Fielden ? Uh I don't know. Let me take a look. Um he was the one who was the CEO. Well well, so anyway, they're doing, you know, it's it's it's got a lot of press. There's a lot of money that's been put into about a hundred million dollars of venture capital um from places like Hearst uh Ventures and uh Bernard Arnauds, uh one of his venture capital, you know, so it's just a lot going on there. And then some weird news starts to creep out that maybe they're bidding on their own auctions and this, that, and the other. And then the CEO at the time was this guy named Alexander Zacki. Um, he was really pushing for the Linen Watch to be sold. I think with an eye on this other trove of linen items that this is if you can keep track of this, sorry. If we go back to to when when Carsan was deported, he took the watch, but he also took some other stuff that other stuff included several diaries from the in from the last five years of john lennon's life that he kept in new yorker desk journals okay so you know those old things with car cartoons in them that you'd get from the New Yorker and keep keep your in the old days when you'd have a desk diary. John Lennon turned those into daily journals and the journals are highly speculated upon about what's in them in terms of his thoughts about his former bandmates and his marriage and a lot of other things. So um anyway, he took some of those with him. So now again, let's go back to auctionata. The watches at auctionata, I think it's pretty clear that Zaki knew that this other stuff was maybe something he could get his hands on too. And you guys will love this. This is 2014. So, you know, at that time, the Patek 2499 is probably a really good in you know Ben obviously tell me what you think a really good um example is probably selling for around a million dollars uh probably a little bit less but either yeah probably not even that much right so in a certain way, I mean now it's hard to remember these things, but I think it throughout this story, it's important to remember, you know, to take off what we know now and go back to that time. Zaki, I think, realized that these diaries and these other things were going to be worth much more. So he kept there's a reason I I the point that I needed to figure out at auctionata was why they didn't get in touch with Yoko Ono, which they didn't do um and why wouldn't you do that you know they they did a few things that they felt made it uh uh legally i guess uh not not so much i don't know if it was so much legal as it was giving the the the provenance a story of a watch, you know, and that was to establish a few facts about it. They got a an extract from PatTech which made them feel that, oh well, it's clearly not been stolen because we couldn't get the extract. If it was, I mean, that's not a really great way of finding out whether something had been stolen, but that's not a thing at all. Yeah, there's there was that. And then they got Carsan to sign a uh a a sworn uh document that said how he got the watch and his claim then, and this is where echoes reverberate back into the story here and there and everywhere, is that okay, if we go back to when he was working for Yoko Ono, his story was before we had the falling out, it's two thousand and five, and she came to me one day and said, You know, I'd like to give you something, um, because you've been a loyal uh uh employee of mine, I'd like you to choose a watch. And so according to him, he went into the room and he chose a watch. And it was the Patek 2499. She later would say, Yeah, I told him to take a watch, but he knew not to take that watch. So that's just one thing that's just a weird kind of like he said, she said, not totally clear what happened. Um, but the point is, auctionata is getting ready to auction the watch. I think they they freak out a little bit that like, oh my god, what if Yoko Ono finds out about this? She's not only going to possibly ruin the auction of the watch, but then we'll never get that other stuff to auction. So let's just do private treaty, a sale by private treaty. So they find a Mr. A, Oliver uh Hoffman. You brought him up. He's the young, uh, quite young. I think he's 29 at the time, uh, in the watch department. Um, he is is instructed to find uh somebody on uh you know who will buy it private treaty. He finds a man who he knew um from his journeys in the watch world and the watch was sold for 600,000 euros. Um, and a agreement to consign 40 more watches. Um, and that's kind of where what happened at auctionata as I know
Tony Traina . Before we get to Mr. A, who I who I want to hear more about from from your perspective, I think the point in which the I was reading your your story in the New Yorker when I first kind of was like, holy sh there it is, was the photo you unearthed from auctionata because in the process, I think of preparing to take it for public auction, as you tell telling the story, they had taken a photo of it and uh you know a nice beautiful photo in sort of this just vacuous black space as you might expect in an auction catalog, but uh that's the reaction I had when I saw it in the New Yorker. I'm I'm curious when you uncovered it in your reporting, kind of just the the reaction you had to finally seeing these uh these photos of of the watch. Well, thank God was what I
Jay Fielden said because I had seen a photo through someone else, but this person was very um nervous about you know in any way um being a part of the story. And so I couldn't verify it and I didn't know. I didn't do. And so I I had I had I had yes seen a photograph and I had seen uh a and I knew the inscription at that point, right? I mean, I I had heard from a couple of different sources and I had seen a photograph. So but I needed the real thing, you know, I mean, and and and so again, the way the thing just kind of suddenly appeared. Uh uh again, I don't want to say it's hard to it's sorry to be full of ams and uns and stutters, but you know how how did it the way it came about was speaking to somebody and somebody say'sing, oh yes, I have a picture of that. Would you like to see it? How about that for a question? Would you like to see it? Oh, I guess. I don't know. Yeah. I mean, maybe tomorrow. I'm kind of tired. Uh so yeah, and then for it to have been photographed like that, right? Uh is extraordinary. I mean, um uh you can really see, you know, everything you want to see. And that's the first time, as you guys know, that you know, every time it's been on John Lennon that all those photographs of the watch on John Lennon's wrist, you can't see the watch. You know, you can't see the Tiffany Stamp. Again, somebody knew it was Tiffany Stamp too, Ben, that which is interesting. Like you can't tell it's Tiffany Stamp. So not only does somebody out there know it was the birthday, but then it was Tiffany Stamped, you know, somebody out there knows something. But uh that that fed that those initial stories back in 08 and 09 and 10. But the point is, yes, the the so I now had the story, you know, I had the inscription, which I felt was what made it more than a watch story too. You know, that's to me understanding that inscription and and how that echoed into the that period of their their marriage and and Lennon's life, I hope that's what gives the story some emotional depth and makes it more than just I just learned some crazy story about a watch
Ben Clymer . Right. It it's also just amazing, and just like what a wild coincidence that both of these watches, the Newman and the Lennon, were both engraved on the back by their wives. I mean, that that is like it's not that common. I happen to know a watch that was engraved by my wife, but like it is not that common of a practice to to to be done
Jay Fielden . Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I I think that's true of all the watch stories that I read, you don't see that. And and engraving in general, I mean, is not not not the most, I mean, I don't have any not that I have a ton of watches, but I haven't engraved any of them and I I've thought about like you know why or why not and my daughter just graduated from high school and was on the way to college and I was gonna get her a watch and I had an engraving in mind and I you know so anyway ye,ah just, thinking about engraving is kind of an interesting thing, right
Ben Clymer ? Um really uh but it just takes it to the I mean in in in both cases, it just elevates the the the story to to being so much more than just about a wat
Jay Fielden ch. Oh yes, absolutely. I mean this one, as I say, it is an accidental memento mori. You know, I mean, it is because of the fact that he was killed, but that it has that inscription, you know, with the date and the whole thing, it it you you can't not see, I don't think you could ever wear that watch if you were to own it and not have that come to mind every time you look at
Tony Traina it. Okay, so we left off the story with Mr. A, and I think this is when it gets gets really good and interesting, and I'd love for you to unpack it a little bit more. Yeah, you know, Mr. A is the one who gets the watch from auctionata. Uh he he turns around a few months later and brings it to Christie's Geneva, but if you could start with sort of Mr. A, uh, you know, sort of what you know about him, uh, and then just sort of overall impressions from from speaking with him.
Jay Fielden Uh so in twenty fourteen, the private uh treaty sale is arranged, it is sold. Uh Oliver uh Hoffman was given the impression by the man who bought it that it was going to be a piece uh you know, going to be put into his collection. Um and yet two months after Mr. A buys it, uh it is taken to Christie's. At Christie's uh they do their due diligence um they follow all the rules precisely as i understand it and um they end up trying to establish its provenance in a way that makes sense, they reach out to Yoko Ono and when her representative, presumably a lawyer, uh, the lawyer then in turn passes on the information. And I think the story is basically as I say, you know, they say, hey, we had this watch. We're pretty sure it's John Lennon's. This is the inscription. Of course, no one knows the inscription, uh, so it would be hard for somebody to know the, you know, for to fake it. Um, I obviously they have the other elements you would want the you know the the the the serial number etc um and so she says through the lawyer uh uh no you don't have my watch because it's here in my apartment. And then she runs and checks the locked room and the watch isn't there. Um so she's shocked, I think, and she um has her lawyer send a note to Mr. A to say, uh, you have stolen property, we demand its return. And then something happens. I know that that Christie's puts it in what they call the strong room on the um watch floor of their old offices in Geneva. Did you ever go there, Ben? Yeah? The one in um Yes, sorry, it's me. Yes, I have been there. In the old part of town. So okay, it goes into the the the strong room, a safe, in other words, on that floor, and there it sits for I think three and a half years or so while something goes on. I don't know what's going on i i i can't figure out whether there was maybe going to be some deal struck whether maybe ono was going to buy the watch and and make Mr. A whole for what he had already spent on it and maybe a little bit more. I don't know. But something doesn't go right, and then Mr. A decides he's going to go on the offensive and take her to court. So he's the one that makes the move to take her to court. Everybody else had reported before this that when the Swiss judgment came out, and I I know that's a a red herring at the moment, but that that it was that she was the one suing him. It was the opposite. So um there's a uh decision made um in the civil case, it's it's it's appealed by Mr. A. Yoko Ono is is so far found to be the only and rightful owner as the Swiss court um uh terms it, and uh it has been appealed one more time and now sits before the Swiss Supreme Court. And it's my understanding that this decision will, this final decision will be made sometime in the fall. As a result of it going through the court um there were there was one court document as you guys well know that um leaked out last september um and in that it it is the appellate court's decision and basic kind of summary of what had been going on in the case. It was very difficult to read. Some people basically what they were able to establish from that um when that leaked out to the to the watch world was um uh that the watch was in Geneva. The what you know, nobody to that point knew where the watch was. They could at least read from this court document that yes, the watch was in Geneva and a few other things. They had the kind of basic, you know, movement of the watch that I've described. And at that point, I knew all that. So when that, when that broke, that news broke, it kind of freaked me out because I I felt like was the only person who knew this and now this you know this this court document was out there that even though it referred to everyone by an initial that's why we're referring to Mr. A as Mr. A and and uh I think uh Ono is referred to as just C. Um it was very hard to know who all the players were unless you knew they had a lot of prior knowledge. Uh, you know, it was also in French, it was also a Swiss judgment, which is very strange uh construction of of writing, etc. But people were able to glean a few things that made them feel like they basically knew the story. To me, once I saw that, I felt like it was, you know, the mystery was all was was as ever, you know, only deepening because it it gave me some uh very helpful facts that I had only by the by at that point been able to kind of establish maybe with one source or something. Now I had the you know the court record to to make it fact. Um but I also already knew and in fact had had a planned meeting with Mr. A that had got gotten canceled two days before that Swiss document was leaked. So I was a little bit like a cat
Tony Traina on a hot tin roof when that happened. Yeah, I think this is when we we covered the story when the Swiss judgment came down uh yeah nine months ago or whatever it would have been and you know to give people some perspective pretty much everything is kind of essentially redacted so even we're talking about Christie's for example but even they are referred to as you know, blank auction house based in Geneva and our story kind of went to lengths to to fill in all those blanks and all that type of stuff. But uh you said something uh a few minutes ago that I wanted to double back on is you said there's uh when we were talking about sort of putting the pieces to the puzzle together. And I think figuring out what exactly happened at Christie's is something you said was still kind of uh uh some blanks to be filled in there or questions to be answered. I I wondering if you could just qu sort of uh explain what you meant there a little bit more
Jay Fielden . Well I did wonder. I mean the questions I would have is d did did Christie's perhaps finding themselves in this situation did they try as I'm sure auction houses sometimes do uh try to broker some kind of compromise. You know did, they say hey,, you know what? All right. Yes, but do you want to sell it? And then and you know maybe we can go ahead and auction it and then you can get the money, or you know, or or we can we can figure out either, you know, either we can help you get the watch back by you you buying it, or we can maybe auction it, or something like this, right? I mean, you know, I would imagine if I were Chrissy's and and it were legal, I would probably try to be a middleman of sort of some sort so but i don't know that that happened i just am trying to figure it out because the swiss judgment does uh mention that there was that the watch was put in escrow until and again i don't want to screw up the language, but it does mention something that that implies a possible reconciliation of some kind, right? And so what would that reconciliation be? Just him giving him giving the watch back after after this person had paid 600,000 euros, I don't think that was gonna, but it had there it was gonna have to be some kind of attempt to to to to make him whole
Tony Traina , right? So that's what I'm wondering. One of the other things you did was talk to Sean Lennon and I wanted to ask you, you know, you had one quote in here I I wanted to read off, but then I wanted to ask for sort of you to just unpack anything else you learned from him. Uh one of the quotes he he gave you in The New Yorker was he says about the watch, it's important that we get it back because of all we've gone through over it. He said, I'm not a watch guy. I'd be terrified to wear anything of my dad's. I never even played one of his guitars. To me, if anything, the watch is just a symbol of how danger it dangerous it is to trust. Uh but I'm wondering what else he he sort of told you about the whole ordeal. Yeah, I mean that's pretty powerful stuff, right
Jay Fielden ? I mean I I I I I guess I hesitate to say this as a journalist. I try you know, you you try to remove yourself from the thing, but I I I really liked speaking with Sean, you know. I I and I was glad he spoke to me and I'm grateful that he did, because I I don't think I don't think that that's something he does all the time. And um you know and I and I again I having written the piece and looked at all those pictures of of Lennon, John and and Sean at that time. The byoth have the same birthday by the way, so that that was you know, that was intense. Um I just f I just felt you can't help but feel bad about it all. You know, like I mean it it's sad that that that Lennon it's sad that anyone would die like that, but it's it's particularly sad that a guy trying to get everything back in order in his life and um be a good dad and all that kind of stuff um was just snuffed out. You know, so you and then when he's when you get those quotes, you just see what how how how darkly how dark the reverberation is, you know, in the family and how difficult that must be. When I spoke to him, I mean he's a super charming guy and he he's very articulate and but you know he he just spoke a lot about I think what was really top of his mind was his experience with how many people had from his point of view had taken advantage of his parents, you know, and um as the kid who, you know, looking up at the adults and the and the, you know, the adults, I mean, not just his parents, but the other uh, you know, people in charge of things that were brought into their lives, I I think that made him feel extremely vulnerable, you know. Um and obviously then the for your dad to die like that and you know for fans to be around you know I just that he didn't he doesn't come across as somebody who's who's fragile or anything but but the trauma I think spoke loudly through the things he was telling me. But it was really just about that. It was about, you know, being, I think the son of a guy who who stood for what we all know he stood for. And a lot of people have made wise cracks about the piece who haven't read it like oh the guy with no who sang about no possessions have perfectly you know like yeah it's like dude that's what the piece is about man it's not like I didn't realize that this was part of the irony. You know, yeah, there are ironies. People have unusual inconsistencies in the way that they live their life. It's interesting. They're human. Let the guy off the hook. Maybe try to understand it. You know, big whoop. It's what makes the story human, you know, again, you know, compelling, fascinating, strange, unexpected, surprising. What's wrong with any of those things? Um, so I I felt that that was what I picked up from Sean. It is just a very secedlud life, you know, but a real desire to again, as I said before, to want to be a part of the real world, but but but the real world needing to be kept at bay. And that every time the real world meaning somebody was just allowed into their life that hadn't been vetted that seemed nice and friendly and a fan ended up in his mind you know uh doing something terrible to them to make them feel pulled pull further into themselves, further away from the real world. And that's that's that's hard to think
Tony Traina about. Last question I'm I'm gonna ask both of you, Jay first, since you're uh since this is your story and you're as close to the watch as as anyone now, I can imagine, uh, is kind of what your predictions or expectations uh are as to the final resolution. Obviously, we talked to talked to the legal aspect of it, but I'm sort of speaking beyond that, whether it ends up with with Yoko and then perhaps Sean, whether it'll appear at auction, sort of just any sense you have, uh, and then even beyond that, what you'd like to see for for it. Yeah, ye
Jay Fielden ah. Well I I I did I did ask him, you know, I mean in our in the course of our conversation, he said, you know, I I I don't I don't know anything about the legal stuff. You know, I don't have anything to do with that. It and and I said I said, what would you do with it if ever came back? So I I don't know, it's not mine. You know, I I I I so it was very interesting that he, you know, he he hasn't thought about it from that point of view or he hasn't uh uh if he has he's not really wanted to think about it very much. I think it would be really cool if it if it came back to him. You know? I mean, I I think I I think it would, even if he never wore it, you know, I I think for what it represents as a symbol, I mean he seemed afraid of it to be honest with you. I I think he you know, he told me at one point, he said, you know, I I I'm I'm I'm a suspicious person, you know, I I I I have to be very difficult, you know, it's difficult for me not to let my mind go there. So I never try when I yeah, this is when I said, Well, what do you think the watch represents to, you know, what does it represent to you? And he said, Why does it have to represent anything? Why can't it just be what it is? It's a watch. I I I'm I'm too you know given to thinking about these things and and I go through my daily life just trying not to think about the significance of every little thing. I I think just let it be what it is, you know. Um that also tells you about the weight of it. But I I still think it there would be something nice about it ending up back in a sense because it was given to to Lennon on his birthday, which is also Sean's birthday. And they had a pretty sweet birthday, as I understand it, that day. There's pictures of it and all that kind of stuff. And it just seems kind of like justice to me. I mean, as for Mr. A, I I don't I don't sense that he's a nefarious character. You know, I think um he he probably saw an opportunity and perhaps he should have asked a few more questions. I bet he he might even think that himself now because he's certainly been embroiled in something that can't be that much fun. Um, whether he thinks he's right or not, I'm sure he's kind of like, What did I get myself into? And I sus spect it hasn't been inexpensive to do the things he's he's done in terms of legal fees. So, you know, I imagine, I mean and Ben it'd be interesting for you to talk about, you know, I I think the watch world is and the world of antiquities and all that stuff, it's there's lots of gray areas, you know. Um, and and this was probably kind of a gray area that a lot of people are very get very used to living in and not thinking it's very weird, and most of the time it doesn't come back to bite you and this is maybe just one of those times when it when it there's just too much too much karma man as Lennon would say there's too much karma with this with this piece
Ben Clymer . Yeah, I I think I think that's right. And I think, you know, I mean, you know, I I I'm not a super active buyer or seller at all auction, but I get offered things all the time from auction houses. And I often say, well, like if if it's, you know, I'm gonna make this up, but like let's say it's an astronaut speedmaster. I was certainly not offered john land as 4499 but i have been offered an astronaut speed master and i was like why why would you want to sell it to me or you know one of my friends privately when like if this really is what you claim it to be why wouldn't you want to go as wide as possible with this, you know? And the answer is obviously that they're afraid of what might come out. It it's not something that I think like the the the layman would be comfortable with at all. Having been around this stuff long enough. I'm I'm not comfortable with it, but I'm used to it, if that makes any sense. Uh and you know, go going back, Tony, to to your question, it would be my hope that this watch goes back to the Lennon family and has never seen an auction. If it is at auction, I would love it to be sold for charity or or something like that. But I think like this watch is so tricky because if you talk to the auction house guys or the the purveyors of seven-figure or eight figure in this case, uh watches, you know, there there's talk of this being the most expensive wristwatch in history, right? Like trumping the the the the Paul Newman, Paul Newman, trumping even some of the the charity patek filips, which are, you know, we're talking 20, 30 million dollars at this point. Somebody asked me, and I think maybe you even asked me when we first spoke, Jay, like what way what I think it would be worth. And I would have said, I don't know, 10 million bucks, which is an absurd amount of money, of course. But the the idea of this being potentially the most expensive watch in the world is is hard for me to kind of wrap my head around. And I love the Beatles, obviously. I love the 2499, the fact that Stephanie signed, but there there's chatter amongst people that that frankly know more than I do or anybody here on this call that says this could be the most expensive watch in the world. And if that's the case, people are gonna go to extreme lengths to make sure that this thing does come to auction, you know, f selfishly, you know, for for for their side of things. But it it would be a shame if this watch went anywhere but but lengthen
Jay Fielden ed I I'm I'm curious, Ben, I mean not this is not to pat myself on the back it anyway, but I'm curious what a story like this being told in terms of just laying out the journey, the the risk to risk journey this thing's gone on, how much more lore does that give to the possible value of the watch. You know
Ben Clymer , I mean tr tremendous. I mean, as as I said in the in the beginning, the fact that this story, and and I say this like with with with with great pride in what we've done, the the fact that this story was told via the New Yorker versus Hodinky or versus even, you know, some other public like the New Yorker, as a graduate of journalism school like the New Yorker, is the publication, you know. And so the fact that it was told via the New Yorker, I think just adds so much so much credibility to the idea of this this the story. And like the Paul Newman story didn't benefit from this. It was Paul Newman, of course and it was a Dayton. There's a lot to like there, of course, but it didn't have this level of intrigue. And I think in if and when this does come to to some conclusion of some variety, uh the whole world will be paying attention, there's no question about it
Jay Fielden . Yeah, it's for sure a a a front page story when it happens. No question. It's not in the style section
Ben Clymer . That's right. This is this is an Emmy worthy story, or maybe an Oscar worthy story, if I may say. We gotta find the right actor. To play you or me. Yeah. Um but it's no, it's um it's a tremendous story. And and again, like you you did such a masterful job telling it and again, I'm just so pleased that that you were the person to tell it in the New Yorker. It's just such an amazing way to get, you know, to to get the story out there. Well, th you probably
Jay Fielden I mean look, and I I I at times, I mean it took it took literally three years, you know what I mean? So uh uh which still shocks me, I mean, a little bit. I mean, I do have another job, so it's not like I'm just sitting staring at the wall, but that is a long time, um, no matter what. And uh I think there were many days when I sat in this room and just thought like somebody else is gonna get that. All I need is for somebody else to find that engraving and and and see these three years just go up in smoke you know what I mean like uh and and I wondered you know how many people I talked to where they must you know hearing voices in my head whatever happened to Field and then that, he asked you that question too. I haven't heard from that guy in years. Well one of the one of the greatest feelings is just getting it done, you know, and getting it out there. And certainly the fact that it's in the New Yorker, and like I say, the people that helped me get it right and all that. You know, the fact checker, it's great guy named named Daniel Lejution, uh Susan Morrison, you know, I guess I'm giving my Oscar a thank you speech.
Tony Traina Uh well listen, Jay, thank you so much. Congrats again on an excellent piece. Uh thank you for bringing the watch world to the front page of the New Yorker, really. And thank you for taking the time to tell us really the story behind the story. We appreciate you. Obviously, everyone, the the story, if you haven't read it, which surely you have by now, will be linked in the show notes uh below this episode. But thank you again to Jay. Thanks to Ben as always. Thanks to our editor, Vic Odominelli, and thank you to everyone for listening to another episode of Hodinky Radio. And we'll see you again next week. Well,