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In Conversation With Mike Nouveau and Phil Toledano

Published on Wed, 26 Jun 2024 16:55:00 +0000

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Synopsis

In this episode of Hodinkee Radio, host Tony Traina sits down with vintage watch dealer and social media personality Mike Nouveau and artist, photographer, and watch collector Phil Toledano. Mike, known as the "king of Watch Talk" with hundreds of thousands of followers, has built a reputation for his expertise in vintage Cartier and his engaging daily content documenting life as a dealer in New York City. Phil, a frequent guest on Hodinkee platforms and co-founder of the new watch brand Toledano and Chan, appears regularly in Mike's videos as "Mr. Enthusiast."

The conversation explores the unlikely friendship between this "odd couple" and their overlapping yet distinct tastes in watches. Mike discusses his journey from receiving a buyout for his rent-stabilized East Village apartment to becoming a full-time vintage dealer, specializing in 1970s Cartier tanks and Patek Philippe Calatrava reference 96s. He explains his obsessive approach to research and authentication, particularly regarding vintage Cartier's three houses (Paris, London, and New York) and the subtle differences that make certain pieces more collectible. Phil shares his eclectic collecting philosophy, from his former passion for vintage Breitlings to his current focus on audacious 1970s Patek designs and Rolex pre-Daytonas, including a rare Zerograph he recently acquired at auction.

The discussion also covers Phil's new venture, Toledano and Chan, and their debut watch, the Brutalist B1, which sold out in 45 minutes despite manufacturing challenges. The episode concludes with insights into Mike's TikTok success and his new app "Pushers," a platform connecting buyers directly with vetted dealers. Throughout, both guests demonstrate their deep knowledge while maintaining an entertaining dynamic, with Phil's self-deprecating humor playing off Mike's straightforward New York style. Their conversation reveals a shared passion for the obscure and underappreciated corners of watch collecting, from 32mm vintage pieces to design-driven modern watches that challenge conventional tastes.

Transcript

Speaker
Tony Traina Welcome back to another episode of Hodinky Radio. I'm Tony Traina. My guests this week are Mike Nouveau and Phil Toledano. Mike is a vintage dealer and the king of Watch Talk. He's got hundreds of thousands of followers across social media who tune in to his daily updates on life as a dealer in New York City. He in particular has become known for his love and expertise in vintage Cartier, which we'll certainly talk more about. Bill, of course is no stranger to Hodinky, having been on Talking Watches and this podcast previously. He's an artist and a photographer, a bon vivant as well as a collector of all kinds of stuff including watches. Most recently he's the co-founder of Toledano and Shan, which just released its first watch, the Brutalist B1. He's also a frequent undercard on Mike's videos as Mr. Enthusiast. With that, let's bring in Mike and Phil. First of all, Phil Toledano, how are you doing today, sir? As well as can be expected for a man of my advanced age. Sure. Sure. Mike Nouveau, first time uh on the Hoodinky Podcast.. Welcome How are you doing? I'm doing great. Thanks for having me. You know, Phil, as I mentioned, you were on the podcast back in 2018, if I recall. I look, a lot of people know your taste from Mike's videos or just from the wild, sometimes ugly things you post on your Instagram. But do you remember the sort of classy and elegant watch you were wearing that day? On the talking watches? No, not talking watches. We're gonna get to that as well further back, but on the podcast back in 2018. Oh. No, I mean I can barely remember last week. I have no idea what happened for breakfast. Oh good. Well I've got a nice surprise for you. It was the Cartier Tortue Mono Pusher from the CPC P from the 90s. You remember that watch? Yeah, I do. Was that a typical sort of catch and release for you that you that you that you owned for a few weeks and then got rid of? No, I mean the thing about
Phil Toledano (and Mike Nouveau in some segments) the thing it's not really a catch and release thing. It's just that there are so many watches that are interesting and there is a finite budget. So there are things that you buy and every collector understands there are things you buy and immediately you sometimes you love it immediately, sometimes you hate it immediately, sometimes you love it, and then that love dissipates like the mist in the early morning. Or or uh and and so for that one I I actually kind of regret selling that one because I really thought that was beautiful
Tony Traina . Well it's the year of the Tartu now. Uh I wanted to get sort of Mike's thoughts first of all. You know, people that know Mike know especially his love and interest in Cartier, vintage and modern, but Cartier. Mike, thoughts on the new Mono Pusher? Uh I think it's better than the CPCP version., actually It's you know much less bulbous, which was probably the biggest complaint about the about the earlier version. Of course, the vintage versions are the best. The best ones you can get like, you know, but you're talking probably close to a million dollars for the one that uh John Goldberger has, for example. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I mean it's a nice vintage tribute. I like it a lot. Before we get too far into your individual histories and Toldano and Chan and stuff like that, uh I wanted to ask you, because this is actually a question I don't know the answer to, but how this sort of odd couple developed? Like how did you guys meet and how did the relationship grow from there? Um we have not known each other that long. I knew him from his Instagram page and I knew we had mutual friends. Um and I think the first time I ever met him was at an auction preview. And I introduced myself by saying uh I was friends with Scar, our mutual friend scar. And he's like, oh, you know, and we kind of met. And then I think we had coffee a few days later and we did we filmed one watch spotting video for the TikTok, which did really well. And then he realized that he thrives off attention. So we kept going and we kept filming more stuff and now we basically hang out together more than he hangs out with his wife. Mike, since it's the the first time we've talked to you at length on on Hodinky, I just want to get a little bit into your background and how you found watches. So I've known you a little bit now, uh, for for a couple of years at least. But uh one of the things that struck me immediately is you seem like you have this kind of obsessive personality. I say this in the the most positive way possible, if if possible, but uh it seems like when you find something you're all in, I know before watches it was music and DJing and men's fashion. But can you just give us the quick rundown from there how you found watches and then how you kind of went all in on on watches and becoming a watch dealer and then like personality in the wider space even. Sure. So I never had watches growing up, had no experience with watches whatsoever. I didn't I didn't know anything. Um and it wasn't even that long ago. I mean less than 10 years ago, I bought my first vintage watch because I had been bought. I I got a buyout for my rent-stabilized East Village apartment in New York City. So for those who don't live in New York, basically if you have a rent-stabilized apartment, they can never ever make you leave and your rent is kind of under market price for many, you know, forever until you leave. And the only way to get you out is to offer you kind of a big check. And so um I got one of those checks. Not a not a life changing one, but you know, a nice amount of money for you know, a guy like in his 20s, I guess, at that point. Um, and I did someone through the men's fashion world was like, Do you know anything about vintage watches? Do you know like I collect these vintage Rolexes? You should like look into this. And I started doing a little bit of research. I did like a year of research basically and I got really, really into it before buying anything. And I eventually bought a a Rolex GMT Master reference 1675 and that was my first watch. And I think by the time I bought it, I probably was like an expert in the reference. There was like not there was no research left to do on the reference 1675. So I bought the first one. And that was my only watch for many years. Um, and but I still, you know, did tons of research on other brands, other models. I was on the Rolex forums, vintage Rolex forums, Omega Forms, et cetera, learning a lot. And just from you know talking to friends about it, you know, I kind of stumbled upon some kind of good deals on watches that maybe watches I didn't want for my personal collection or didn't have the money for. But I saw like a clear opportunity, like okay, I can buy this right now for five thousand dollars but everyone else is selling it for ten thousand so you know I was like okay let me try it what happens if I buy and sell one and you know it works out and kind of gets bigger and bigger and you know, I did that for a bunch of years until kind of making kind of a leap into being like a full-time dealer. And
Phil Toledano (and Mike Nouveau in some segments) also I've been playing and mentoring you, Mike. I mean, really, I think it's safe to say everything you know is from me. You sat on my knee on many an evening listening to my stories, horological stories. Well it is true you do
Tony Traina sell more watches than the average watch dealer I'd say. Uh well I th I think something I want to talk to both of you about a little bit. Mike, you said you started with Rolex at GMT sixteen seventy five, but from there it really evolved for you. You know, you post a lot about Cartier. Recently you've been speaking more about vintage paddock and the the original 96 Calatrava, stuff like that. Can you kind of just talk about the evolution from there of both your taste and just the types of watches you you sort of specialize in? Sure. I mean, I think like most collectors maybe when they're first starting, Rolex probably seems like the peak. Um, obviously I love vintage Rolex, but after a while after a while, you know, you kind of do get the urge to maybe expand a little bit. I mean, I look at like four digital Rolex like like traditional tattoos, like you can only get so many nautical stars and swallows tattooed on you before you're like, I wonder if there's more than these ten designs in all of horology. Um and so you know I kind of expanded outwards from that. And you know, I always appreciated the Cartier tank. And I and I also found it interesting that there was no um real resource about Cartier. And it was still like really a mystery. I didn't even know where to where to begin, like which tanks out of a hundred years of Cartier tanks were considered collectible, which weren't. How come I see some on eBay for $800? And how come I see similar ones for twelve thousand or fifty thousand dollars. So I kind of fell into a rabbit hole again of Cartier and I'm like, okay, vintage, you know, 1970s, late 1970s is this is probably the good a good place to start. I would say, you know, all three houses of Cartier were recombined and, you know, production was moved to Switzerland for, you know, uniformity. And that's kind of where you start seeing more production numbers and, I thought, you know, this is a good, and I still think that's the best spot to start. And I bought my first one with which was a Tank Louie jumbo automatic because I saw people pricing this watch similarly to a regular tank, Louis. This is the more or less the only automatic tank ever made, including today. So I'm like, wow, this is a very unique little thing. Out of 100 years of Cartier tanks, this one for three years was made with an automatic movement. And even today, they still only produce quartz or mechanical movements. Um, so I'm like, wow, this is a really interesting little thing. So let me find a nice one. I bought it for probably similar price to what the regular hand wine ones were selling for. And then I realized, wow, people don't know how to price these because this is so much more rare and as a collector, more desirable than one that's being sold for the same price right next to it, probably because the the seller is not like fully educated uh on the differences of these. Um so I started kind of buying them up and I still have the you know the first, one I bought. The first you know I, didn't sell one out until I owned maybe three. And then I'm like, I'm just gonna keep buying these guys. I I think these are so the seventies tanks are so undervalued. I mean, it's it's the submariner, it's the it's the Calatrava. I mean it's it's such an iconic piece of design and they're still available, you know, for for what I think is a very fair price for like the most iconic gold dress watch. So I still continue to to buy them like to this day. You still feel like today, even some of these 70s standard sized tank, Louis, and then obviously the automatics, you still feel like they are a little undervalued as to like what they are historically and the importance and all that? I think the tank the automatic version has reached kind of where it should be. It's over twenty thousand dollars. I think when I bought mine, it was seven or six. Um, the tank Louis, the regular 70s tank Louis hand wound, uh, you know, you could find them between seven and twelve thousand, somewhere around there. And and every time I see a nice one, I buy it. If someone has ten of them, I'll buy ten of them. I think they're I really think they're amazing. Bill, I spotted a a rectangular and or square watch on your wrist. I have to imagine it's not a Cartier tank. I have to imagine that's way too boring for you. But can you give us a peek at at what you've got on today
Phil Toledano (and Mike Nouveau in some segments) ? Sure, it's uh it's a Patech um I forgot what the reference number is from nineteen sixty Uh with sapphire markers. Got it. So it's we'
Tony Traina ll have to take your word for it with your video quality. I I'll send you a sketch. I'll pass you a sketch. Uh yeah. So anything else you know about this watch? Square, rectangular, beautiful little paddock? I mean this is kind of in your wheelhouse, huh? Maybe even a little bit earlier than some of the more audacious paddock designs that that you go for, hu
Phil Toledano (and Mike Nouveau in some segments) h? It it's interesting because for me, Patek kind of straddles, at least in the 60s and 70s, they straddled two world worlds. One was um really audacious and the other was extraordinarily formal. And the audacious stuff, the courageous stuff I find really, really interesting and and beautiful. And for the money, I feel like it's unbeatable. I mean, you know, this particular uh reference with the these markers is incredibly rare, but it's not, it doesn't cost a large amount of money, which is always the Venn diagram of joy for any watch nerd
Tony Traina . Kind of speaking of that actually, uh the other day Mikey posted a video with with one Mr. Enthusiast, our own Mr. Enthusiast. And I was surprised about the watch that you bought, uh Phil, at at the New York auctions just here a few weeks ago. So can you give us a little bit of a uh talk a little bit more about that what that watch was and why it was even appealing to a guy like you
Phil Toledano (and Mike Nouveau in some segments) ? Well, uh a guy like me has very broad tastes and and and there are a lot of things that interest me. I'm not just interested in crazy stuff. I I I've always for the last uh I'd say six or seven years, I've been really obsessed with Rolex pre-day toners in particular, the early stuff in the 40s. So the Rolex Zero graph for those nerds who are unaware, is basically the first Royx oyster chronograph they ever made, the first with a in-house movement, the first the rotating bezel. So there's all these first, it was they've only been five or six examples known to be people aware of. And it was always a uh it was always a dream. And it was always, as far as I've concerned, an unattainable dream. Because it it just, you know, when you see them at auction, they're 300 grand, 400 grand, I mean, you know, that this as far as I was concerned, it was never gonna happen. One came up at Sotheby's and Mike was there. Um and I was talking to Mike and Adam Golden and I was like and I was like, okay, what do you guys think? And I mean, you know, the people thought it's gonna go in the low to mid-hundreds. And and sometimes at auction, every now and then, there's kind of a black hole manifests itself and and things just slip through the net for whatever reason. People aren't paying attention. It's the wrong time of day. People have gone for lunch. Whatever. I mean, I the like that quartier Monopousois you commented on earlier. I was the only bidder at auction for that watch. No one else bid on that watch when I won that. So things and I've been successful like just putting in a bid, and sometimes just things miracles happen. So the Rolex Zero Graph happened, I couldn't believe it happened. Uh actually, the it would the lot was passed, and then I uh called them up and I was like, I'd like to, you know, see if it can make stuff work make it work. And they reopened the lot, I put in a bid, and again, no one was interested. Uh so I won the wat
Tony Traina ch. It's wild because I did just a little auction preview the week before, the week leading up to the auction, and that was one of the ones I mentioned as like look out for this lot. I know the estimate was fifty to a hundred thousand and the last one that I remember selling was to your point, like almost two hundred thousand dollars at at Monaco Legends. Uh but this one obviously was not that. It was two C six si
Phil Toledano (and Mike Nouveau in some segments) xty six euro. And I but look again, I mean these are not watches that are it's a very particular, odd kind of watch, and not a lot of people I imagine would be very interested in it. It's 32 mil. But to me, of course it's history, but it's also just this beautiful, strange, unusual thing.
Tony Traina And I just like beautiful strange things. Yeah, it's one of those things. I think I I said this as well about this watch and then another watch I'm gonna get to in a second, but 32 millimeters, an old watch from the 30s, it's not the kind of thing that a lot of people are super interested in. So you get the two people right people bidding and it could go for 2$00,0000,00. But if you get one wrong person in your case bidding, it might just go for you know $50,000 or whatever it is after they have to reopen it. So so it is what it is. But congrats on a cool historical sort of zero graph. But Mike, the other watch I mentioned there that I was going to talk a little bit more about is one that you've been sort of talking about more lately on on your various platforms. The Calatrava, specifically the 96, I know you bought one personally for yourself and you've been sort of buying them up. But if you could just talk about the just the appeal of those watches first of all and then uh what you've been doing with them. Yeah I mean another one I'm kind of head over heels on the the first Patek Calatrava ever starting in the 1930s. Reference 9096, it's only 30.5 millimeters. I'm I mean, I'm wearing wearing mine right now. It actually wears so well to when I try on the larger version, which came a little bit later, the reference 570, which is only 35 and a half millimeters. It seems humongous, it seems almost too big. Um, so yeah, they made this palatraver for 40 years from the 30s to the 70s. There's a million different dial variations, which which is something I like as well, kinda like the day date where you can collect day dates for thirty years and you'll still find stuff combinations you haven't seen before. Um I just you know I I don't know why. They just speak to me. I think they were underappreciated for a long time. I know the Japanese were buying them up. A lot of dealers tell me, oh, I was sending these to Jap to Japan for the last ten years or whatever. I just think it's a very, very cool, important historical patek. Um I think the size is right. I think like most people wear watches that are too big for them. I think this is like the perfect size. Uh when you hear 30.5, you're like, wow, that is very small, but. But I I mean think I think it wears amazingly. And yeah, I mean, a lot of people are looking for them. Not, you know, way before I started talking to them. People were certainly looking for them. I just think now prices are going up. We saw one at Antiquorum, a regular steel stick dial. Like steel is rare, but in terms of configuration, it's a very common configuration. I think it went for like $45,000 or something. I mean, for a regular steel stick dial. Um so yeah, I mean people are obviously paying attention to them. I'm looking for them hard to find nice ones. That's the other thing about them, and they're difficult to find ones that have not been overpolished or messed with in some way. But yeah, I mean I love I I love 40 spatek and I love the ninety six. Can you talk a little bit more about so you just you know for people on the audio that that aren't watching on YouTube, which is most people, you're wearing a nice steel paddock Calatrava with a is it a GF bracelet on it as well? Yeah, yeah, it's a 1940s gay forever bracelet. Yeah. Yeah. And then uh brigade numerals as well, right? Is it a long signature sort of pre-one as well? Nice. So 1941. So obviously one of the more desirable variants, if you will, I would say, of of ninety-sixes. But can you talk about you mentioned like trying to find good ones and what that means, but can you just talk a little bit more like what differentiates for you as a dealer and a collector, even just like one you would want to go in on buying versus a crappy one or one that you would pass on? Sure. I mean the easiest way to tell like with Rolex is the lugs and the lug holes. It kind of gives it away a bit. If it's something if it's you know if it has toothpick lugs, it's uh means it's probably been overpolished. Probably a pass. I mean there's some leeway. I mean we're talking about watches that are you know 80 years old. Um the dial is obviously extremely important. Same with Rolex. You know, the way these dials were built, they were built to be restored. They were built to be cleaned. You don't want it to be over-restored or over-cleaned or re like reprinted or something like that. So you have to look at the enamel, you have to look at the zapon, you have to really examine these dials. Cleaning is okay, washing is okay. You know, it's kind of a thin line between restoration and and forging. But you know, it really takes, you really, really have to study these things. And I'm not, you know, I'm I'm still learning more about this era of Patek and how these dials were made. Kind of every day and you really need to kind of assess each one individually. Sometimes you know if you if back then if you sent a watch to back to Patek for service, they were probably going to clean the dial or refinish the dial. And sometimes it it involved removing the markers. Sometimes it was it's really more of just like an actual cleaning, like you think of cleaning. Sometimes it's more of a a sanding to the dial, and sometimes you can see the vertical stripes from a restoration service. But yeah, you kinda really have to assess each one. At the end of the day, it still has to look good. It has to look good, you know, nobody wants a a crappy a crappy dial on their watch. So some people, even if they know it's been restored, they prefer that over, you know, one with crazy batina or, you know, water damage or rust or whatever. Yeah, it's funny you kind of got into the dial cleaning and condition and all that type of stuff. I did an article that'll I think will be published by the time this this has run actually just about sort of dial condition and I was talking about the 1463 in in particular because we were just talking about this the other day a little bit Mike but the really nice one that sold at Antiquorum Geneva last month. Everhard signed. Yeah, really beautiful watch. One of the best ones I've I've sort of seen this year. But comparing that to some of the other recent ones that that have come up and just like the condition of a vintage paddock can two X or three X the cost. Like just absolutely entirely based on condition. Uh and I think the one an antiquorum sold low actually. Yeah. Uh we talked about the same watch a few weeks ago and and Eric Ku and Justin Gruberg said kind of the exact same thing. Yeah. But you know, Mike and Phil, I think you guys have quite defined tastes and obviously you're posting a lot on Instagram so people kind of understand your taste, but they don't overlap a ton. I think Mike, you kind of had this this classic taste in a way, and Phil, yours is I don't know how to describe yours. I don't know if we even can in in a few words, but I'm wondering where you guys overlap in sort of the taste you have in in watches and where you disagree
Phil Toledano (and Mike Nouveau in some segments) . Is there any is there any overlap? I'm trying to think if there's any No I like the I like uh I like the um I like the 96s a lot. Um and uh and I think it's safe to say you have you've Mike you,'ve dabbled a f you've ventured into the 70s Patek a little bit here and there. Yeah, definitely. I mean, and look, as for Caltier, I mean, I'm not a huge tank person, but I certainly I really admire the audacity of Cartier in their design in terms of shape over the last hundred years. They've really been on the forefront of of the of being courageous with shape. And that's so interesting to me. You're not really into the pre-daytonist stuff are you though? No. I'm not really into Dayton's at
Tony Traina all. Yeah, but Daytona and Predaytona is totally different creature. Can you unpack that? Let's say I'm not I'm not that into I've never really cared about Rolex chronographs. Let's say let's say that. Not for any particular reason. I just never I they just never did much for me personally, even though I know obviously it's an iconic thing, blah, blah blah. Paul Newman. I don't know how much more I could hear about it, but yeah. Bill, can you talk a little bit more about the appeal for these pre-daytonas for you? It's
Phil Toledano (and Mike Nouveau in some segments) Well I mean those are the ones I've had in my collection the longest. The 70s Patek stuff is is relatively is the last four or five years, as for the same for the MIDA stuff. I don't know. I I I had a big Eberhard collection for a while, three extra fort from the 40s. I really, really, really love the 1940s design aesthetic with the kind of tachometer and all that stuff on the inside of the dial. And the Rolex pre-daytona I really love because there's this peculiar paradoxical design aesthetic happening where you have this kind of 1940s aesthetic sandwich into a Rolex Oyster case, which we're really familiar with. So you have this kind of juxtaposition of 1940s and then this kind of eternal 19 Rolex steel case thing happening. And I like that, I like that kind of design surprise. Um, and I've always loved them. I just think they're incredibly interesting, really rare, really beautiful, and and you know, ironically, so much more interesting and so much rarer than a than a Rolex Daytona which are endless amounts. Um I and I guess look the the the snob in me likes the fact there aren't many around and and you know, and and I and I like I like the kind of obscure things. I like that that's appealing to me. Um the snob in you is is most of you, I mean, to be fair.
Tony Traina Let's be honest, is as Mike will happily attest to. There's some snobbery in all of us. It's you know it's about wanting what not everybody else has. That's kind of how collecting works
Phil Toledano (and Mike Nouveau in some segments) . It's true, and I mean it's interesting how it manifests itself. Like if you like Rolex Daytonas, then you will be like, this is a foreliner or this is an underline or whatever it is. Like this there are so many fascinating ways in which we delineate our snobbery when it comes to collecting
Tony Traina . Bill, I wanted to just talk a little bit more about the way in which your your taste, if you can even call it that, has evolved over the years because I was looking at your talking watches, which was back in 2016, obviously, link it in the show notes, but uh about half of the watches you showed were vintage brightlings, which is I was surprised to sort of remember that. Uh some of the other things were these more audacious seventies designs, which you've really gone to in the past few years. But can you just talk a little bit more about what the hell has happened with with Bill Toledano's collection in the past few years and how it's how it's evolved?
Phil Toledano (and Mike Nouveau in some segments) Um I was a huge vintage vintage Brightling collector. Um I actually think that of all the 60s watches they have the most interesting design like versus like Hoya or or well, for sure. I mean of the sort of second tier, I guess, watch brands. I I found them really interesting, really beautiful, the 765 AVI with that little jump our 15-minute counter thing. The super oceans are incredible. I loved all those things. And then at some point I was like, no, I'm going to sell all those and get into pre-daytona, which is what I did. Um and then then I had like a small military watch collection. Uh then I had then I got really into the 70s stuff. Then I got massively into like uh Rolex King Midas, the Pad Text from the 70s. But there's so many interesting corners to root around in. It just seems churlish almost not to explore churlish. Well yeah. I know I knew you'd enjoy that color. Jeez. It it does. It seems churlish and not to like there's so it's like look, there are so many dishes if you want to use a food analogy to taste to sample. Why wouldn't you just try them all? I mean, they're you know, like why stick with the old Tony Trainer Rolex Explorer
Tony Traina ? Low blow. We're we're putting you on a 10-second mute anyway, Phil, for that low blow. While while you're in the penalty box, Mike, you mentioned something earlier about sort of nineteen seventies when all the Cartier houses combined and sort of became one and they they started building out their Swiss manufacturing. But you you also talk a lot about the differences in 1960s and pre-1970s Cartier when they were making things in in Paris and then I suppose separately in London as well. But maybe you could talk a little bit more about the appeal of Sure. I mean, these watches really feel kind of handmade. Once you go, I don't I mean people may or may not know before whatever it is, 1972, the numbers of watches Cartier was producing per year were the the numbers were so so small. I mean, there were years where a hundred watches were made there were years where 20 watches were made like in the 1920s and 30s there's you know we have the archives which kind of show you how many w movements were ordered or how many cases were made and these numbers are so, so small. Th wateseches are so rare. I mean, people will probably see the 70s stuff fairly regularly, and obviously the newer stuff. Uh, the 80s stuff is very common. But once you go before 1972, it gets so, so uncommon and so hard to find. And these when you handle them, you really like wow, these really were made in some little atelier somewhere with no aspects of mass production. These were little pieces of jewelry that they were able to fit a watch movement into. It's highly, highly fascinating. It goes back to the same thing I was saying about the day dates and the 96s, where everyone you see can be different. There's always, always new stuff to discover. You can find something that you've never seen before. It's not in any book. And now you have to say, like, is this real? Is this uh was this made once in nineteen forty two by special order or is this a complete fabrication? So it's like another step because you're not going to walk into a you know a jewelry store and find a Rolex never before seen, no documentation of it's not going to happen. But with Cartier, it happens all the time because these things were made in such small quantities, three different houses, New York, London, and Paris. And you know, who knows what what, you know, there might be a movement number and a case number written down, but you might not know what that watch was, what it le how it left the atelier and who it went to and you or it could be a completely new design that no one has ever seen before. I have this keen memory of back when we went to the Miami Beach Antique Show, all of us were there actually. Phil was Phil, what did you buy at the Miami Beach Antique Show? I bought the Shoppa uh Samurit skeleton. That thing's long gone, right? Yeah, and then I bought a Piaget, white gold Piaget Polo. Ah, okay. And do you still have the polo? I do. Wow. This is gonna be the longest time you've ever held a watch for. What's that almost? I don't know why you guys
Phil Toledano (and Mike Nouveau in some segments) give me some use about this.
Tony Traina I'm trying not to be churlish, but the churlishity is low another me. Yeah, you took the low blow at me, Phil, so I'm just I'm just trying to return it, my friend. Um but Mike, one of the watches that you found there that I I sort of keenly remember was it turned out to be a Cartier tank for made for New York. And I had seen the watch in the case actually, and I I just like probably glazed past it as something that looked like maybe even a must tank, you know, these sort of cheap uh watches that they made with quartz movements later on. But you had sort of a keen eye and found it, made a video about it, obviously later on, and even bought the watch. But can you just talk about finding watches like that and then even even in particular these these Cartier New York watches that are like kind of hard to find and rare? Um yeah, Cartier New York in the 1970s were you know ordering watches just for Carte New York that London and Paris potentially knew very little about and they had slightly different fonts, different design, like very, very slightly. Um, you know, the chemin defer was a little bit more wide, the numerals were maybe a little bit more wide, and they had complete different movements than what you would have gotten in Paris. And, you know, they're valuable and people collect them. If you if if you're one of the whatever 50 or 100 people who care about this and it's collectible. But if you're just a jeweler somewhere, you don't know the difference. So I saw it. I said, how much is that? In my head, I was thinking, please say under fifteen thousand dollars. And he said it's seven thousand dollars, the same price as all of them i said can i see it and i looked at it um and i said what kind of what kind of movements in here do you know what the movement is he goes yeah it's a manual movement i said oh okay a manual movement thank you for being specific um and obviously i bought it and it's sold very quickly because once you kind of even if someone doesn't know about it, when you teach someone about it, it's it's a pretty interesting thing. I mean, this you know famous French jewelry house. The hady a New York branch, which obviously is still here, and they made stuff for New York clientele. And this is like a tank that looks four percent different than every other tank. But it's just like a little piece of Cartier history that's I find quite collectible and I really really like them. Inside the movements are different and they were using different suppliers than Cartier Paris. Yes. Um you know uh let's see whatever that yeah this was early 1970s. So probably during there was like a crossover period of a few years where you know the houses were officially rejoined, but production was still all over the place. So probably from like 70 to 78 or something like that, stuff still came out. Uh, you can kind of tell by the different hallmarks that was still New York, Paris, um, that were different than what came just you, know a, year or two later. So yeah, some of the some of them have Ottawa P gay movements, some of them have Eta movements, some of them are uh Gigère signed Cartier. So yeah, you had a whole kind of you never know until you open it up to see Bill I want to go back to you for a little bit because you obviously took the watch world by storm just here in the past month or so with the release of well, the announcement first, I suppose, of Toledano and Chan, your new brand, and then your first watch, which was called the B, the B one, the B slash one. How are we calling it? B one is good. All right. So the sort of the sort of brutalist take. I think a lot of It's the Whitney, the Mossel Royal Whitney Museum in midtown. I'm not a New York I'm not a New Yorker, so I I I defer to you on this. But okay. So a lot of people know the story by now, know the watch. It sort of quickly sold out through a variety of channels through the Hodinky shop. A few sold via mic, and then you obviously sold on your own website as well, but it sold out in what, forty five minutes or something? Pretty much. So we extend our congrats to you for that. But as I said, people kind of know the story and the origin story of the B one, but I wanna sort of get your take a little bit more on what you view as the vision of the brand and kind of what statement you're trying to make and how you did that with the with the B1.
Phil Toledano (and Mike Nouveau in some segments) I guess for me the the for Alfred and I the the brand is really it's a it's about sculpture and it's about materials. Those are the two most important things. And so I think going forward, we're gonna pursue those two angles, those two lines. Like we're we're we're so interested in exploring new materials. I mean, we we auctioned uh watch at a Pierce Unique at Sotheby's that was the first watch made out of carbon fiber infused with copper. So we want to continue to be interesting and surprising. And in some ways, you look if you look to say Genta in the nineties, he was so experimental in the kinds of collisions of different materials he used. And that's really exciting. It was really exciting to see that. So we'd like to kind of re-invigorate that spirit and do things that are incredibly audacious audacious from a shape perspective, but also from a materials perspective. That was a good
Tony Traina corporate blather for you, wasn't it? It was. So let's break it down and tell us what that really means going forward. I mean, you did the B one. Do you have plans for a a new release? Uh can you talk a little bit about what that's gonna look like? Is it gonna be a take on the the B one or you're gonna do something completely different? New materials, new shapes? What are we looking at here
Phil Toledano (and Mike Nouveau in some segments) ? I think we're gonna stick with the same shape. What are we looking at, kid? I feel like I was I you just gonna serve me a pound a meter the butches. What do you need? I know that sounded kind of mean, I'm sorry. No, it didn't sound mean, man. It didn't mean it was just hard hitting investigative journalis Yeah, thanks. Someone finally recognizes it. Thanks, Phil. Um I I think we're gonna stick with the same shape for the near future, but what we're looking at is materials um and as I said, different collisions of different materials and treatments and all that kind of stuff. I mean, as an artist, the most exciting part is always the idea part. The least exciting part is the idea when the collision between the idea and reality. Um but yeah, that's that's what we're kind of looking at now. It's just how to make something that's equally surprising. There's there's four or five ideas on the table right now. That's all. There's one with sand in it. On your wrist though, that's gonna be the radical innovation
Tony Traina . Thinking that this is the most sort of conservative is kind of a scary thought, but you mentioned something there that I I want you to talk a little bit more about is just kind of ideas ca colliding with with the reality and I suppose that means the reality of actually manufacturing these these crazy things that that pop out of your brain. What was the hardest part of of manufacturing the the B one or the thing that you sort of ran into that was really difficult for you guys
Phil Toledano (and Mike Nouveau in some segments) ? Well I I'll tell you a funny anecdote the um usually when you order from a factory, any factory, there's a moq, a minimum order quantity. Um and and for us the moq was 300. But then the factory said to us, look, this is such a pain in the ass to make we will happily make way less for you. So it happens because it's it the I guess the thing about the watch is it's it's extraordinarily difficult to make because there are so many surfaces, so many bevelings, so many finish, there's two or three different kinds of finishing happening on the watch. So it's just incredibly complicated. So it took us a long time. And with a watch like the B1, there's it's it's um okay, I'm gonna say something and then Mike will step in with the shiv and just give me a quick jab to the ribs, preparing yourself. It's like a beautiful sentence. There is no place for misplaced punctuation. Q Mike I it's beautiful. You're bringing a tear to my eye. I have no slight comment to add. Come on man surely I feel moved but it really is like the thing about that design is it's very hard you you can't if you make a mistake with finishing or or m or manufacturing you can't hide it on that watch. So that was the trickiest part is getting it to a point that was satisfactory to both Alfred and I, just from an aesthetic standpoint, a finishing standpoint. And even now we look at it and we're like, oh there's so many things we can make it better
Tony Traina . You want to give any examples of of what you could do better? Uh or is that just gonna make your clients that bought it just really angry? You know what? You might be
Phil Toledano (and Mike Nouveau in some segments) right. I will not say that look, any any with anything you make, the first one is always a revelation. Like you you you make something and you think it's perfect and then uh again when you when it contacts the outside world you realize it wasn't as perfect you thought and there's things you can make better. So we're always gonna try make it better. But but you know, it's it's been an extraordinary experience, man, to be honest
Tony Traina . So your partner, Alfred, you mentioned is is based out in Hong Kong, right? So
Phil Toledano (and Mike Nouveau in some segments) just so you know, Mike is convinced he's an AI uh figment of my man. No one's ever seen this guy. Well he's in Hong Kong. We've never actually met him. But but Mike is convinced that he's like he's a he's an AI rec
Tony Traina reation. Split personality type of thing. Well, let's assume he's real for for just a second or stipulate that he's real. I wanted to ask sort of obviously I I guess he's on in that part of the world would which makes it easier to to work with your suppliers that are over there. But anything you learned about manufacturing in Hong Kong and China and and all of that that you're that you were just surprised by perhaps
Phil Toledano (and Mike Nouveau in some segments) um well I think look that we we you know we talked a lot about uh where to make the watch and Alfred is lives in Hong Kong so naturally he and he's a watch designer so he has all these connections in in mainland China and Hong Kong to make stuff for us. But we did talk a lot about it, but the price point was an issue and we didn't want it to be a really expensive watch. I will say the one thing that was kind of gloriously surprising is the is the speed at which we could try things. Um and so we tried a bunch of stuff uh and it would and it would and it was pretty quick to see to get like a a rough prototype of okay is this a good idea is this not a good idea and that was but again I have nothing to But I feel like if we if we did it in Switzerland it would we'd still be in
Tony Traina production. Yeah. Well if they even wanted to work with a with a nut like you, you know. I'm a very appealing nut man. Uh sure. Honey roasted, huh? You're do you're doing it for me. I I have nothing to add. But you've gotten to the point now where you just roast yourself. It's too easy almost. Well, it kind of gets to the last thing I want to talk about. I can't believe we've gotten sort of 45 minutes in or whatever it's been without even talking about uh the TikTok of it all, I suppose, or the social media of it all. But obviously you guys are sort of very niche celebrities in in that part of the world. But we got to start with Mike here, obviously, and talk about how that even started for you. Obviously a lot of people know you as Mike Nouveau on TikTok and you started it a few years ago. I mean really just with with watch spottings with with friends and people you spotted on the streets in New York and it's really evolved from there to change your life, I imagine. But can you just talk about how that how that even came about and how it's evolved to to where it is now? I was a watch dealer before, but really nobody, nobody knew me. I have a lot of friends that were in like kind of the men's fashion space that made TikToks and they saw their lives kind of change a little bit with the success of their TikToks. And they're like, you should really get on here because there's no watch content on here. And you can, you know, maybe, you know, get some followers. So I made one video, a watch funny video, asking someone in the street about their watch and the very first video got a couple of hundred thousand views, which is even today I would consider very, very successful for a video. And then I did it every single day. And then after just a couple, people were asking me questions about watches. I didn't put my face on it. I didn't I like my name was on the account, but nobody knew who I was. And then I never thought I was gonna get in front of the camera. And then very quickly people were asking me questions about watches, how to source, how to authenticate, why vintage, et cetera. So I started talking to the camera and those videos did decently enough. And then it expanded to all watch content on you know these little short one-minute videos I do every single day. And um it kind of took off from there. And that's kind of like how I started it. And yes, it's definitely changed my life a lot for sure. Um it brings me amazing watches, which is the best part. Like people come to me with amazing watches to buy or sell, which really, really is the best part. And um I've experienced some of that with Cartier with Brigade, with tech, or just, you know, an entire younger generation who doesn't know, don't know any other dealers. They DM me with amazing watches maybe I could buy them or help the help them sell them so it's really kind of um that's the best part because the the in this entire business the entire hobby the the hardest part is finding the watches is that's what I always tell people. That's the hardest part. So if you have people coming to you with incredible watches, I mean it's it's you can't even put a value on that. So yeah, it's definitely um benefited me as a collector and a dealer and you know and I now I have kind of uh a podium from which to to speak my opinions about the watch world to berate people just more you just you simply yeah yeah yeah. Yeah. You know, you mentioned something there for a while you didn't even sort of come out in front of the camera, but you've obviously you've done that since then. And I think one of the things that I came out as a TikToker. One of the things that you do really well, if I if I may say. Number one, I think you're like super authentic, which people connect with uh is the whole New York Tony. Please don't give him any compliments, man. I know. Disconnect. Disconnect this geezer. This is super painful, but look, this is the complimentary portion of the show, Phil. Uh none are coming your way, but but Mike's way for sure. Look, you m you manage to be super authentic. There's the New York scene and all of that that I think people are connected to, but you managed to tow the line between being informative and uh just like pure entertainment every day. Uh can you talk about were you did you strike that balance initially or number one, did you strike that balance initially and then even just kind of putting yourself in front of the camera, what what that felt like to you and sort of was it difficult to to do that? It was difficult to get in front of the camera. I am very sensitive to cringe. Um and I'm realizing that as like a at that point in my late 30s, getting in front of the camera for this app, that you know the, perception is that it's for kids. In reality, I have found out that it's definitely not. There are serious uh buyer-sellers of watches on this app. My demographics are not even, I think my highest segment is like 26 to 34 or something like that. So it's not super young. It really would be a it would be very, very foolish to ignore uh this segment. And now you see dealers and people making content, the same people who who were who were laughing earlier, uh Adam Golden are now making content of their own. Um so yeah, it was hard to get in front of and get in front of the camera. And I think I, you know, I've never been afraid to share my opinions. I am obsessive. It's it's truly like who I am. So I love talking about these things. And if people want to buy a cardier tank because I am obsessed with cardier tanks, then that's great. But you know, I'm not lying to people. I'm not faking the enthusiasm. It's really, really, it's real. I really get excited by these watches. Finding a new watch is incredible to me. Um being able to, I mean, make money off like an insane obsession is also like no matter what, I will and I have friends who, you know, have more money that I can dream of who still get the excitement of finding a watch for five thousand dollars and selling it for six thousand dollars. Um so yeah I mean it's amazing being able to do this and I don't know why people like I don't know why people like the videos but I guess they do. Bill, I I don't think you ever had any trouble sort of getting in front of the camera on Mike's channel or or otherwise, but what's it been like for you sort of going along for the ride sort of off and on as Mr. Enthusiast and and being in Mike's videos every once in a while? Let me tell you it' alsways
Phil Toledano (and Mike Nouveau in some segments) my dream to reach middle age play an ancillary character on my most universe. Middle age? We're not talking about 25 years ago. I mean look it's it's pretty entertaining. I mean um I you know, people recognize me. Uh I Oh, you're that guy and that guy's video is usually how I'm recognized, which is really what I was hoping for. After t after
Tony Traina thirty years as an artist,s God knows when he published books. That's right. This is how you'll be remembered. That's right. As the guy in the jumpsuits in my videos. Yeah. Mike, I think one of the other things you do relatively well is you uh keep them coming. Keep them coming. When I when I hang out with you, you seem to divide the line between okay, I'm take I'm getting content versus I'm just hanging out at being an actual human. How do you even manage to to do that and not view the entire maybe you do view the world this way as everything is potential content to to be harvested, but you seem to divide it relatively well. How you how do you manage that? I I don't know. I mean I think it's good it's good to be documenting stuff in general, even if I wasn't posting it, if I see a moment that I think other people would enjoy. And like you said earlier, there is a big New York aspect to this. I think people, I think New York is almost like a character in in the in the videos. Um, people all the time comment: Is this really what happens in New York? Is New York really like this? Uh I just, you know, if I see something interesting I I I take out the phone and I start recording if if it's appropriate to do so.
Phil Toledano (and Mike Nouveau in some segments) If I can say something actually about nice about Mike if I have to. I'll be I'll be invoicing him later. But the reason why it works is because New York is very much like Mike. Like it's quite uh New York is unalloyed and it's and it's brusque and it's can be rude and it can be funny and it can be interesting. And those are all things sadly that Mike embodies. Thank you. Oh, the
Tony Traina beautiful backhanded compliment. Mike, obviously you guys did some videos about about the Toledano and Shane and the B1, but Mike, what were your thoughts when you first saw it and Phil was presenting prototypes to you. No, I mean I thought it was cool. I thought it was amazing. I'm very, I'm very uh proud of him. Um I I it's very cool. It's truly not like anything else. If you want a cool designy watch, like a 70s inspired. I don't know what you buy today. I mean, I guess in the last few weeks, a few more have come out, but really, um, if you want like if you wanted a geezer watch and you only had a four-digit budget, I mean, this is this was the one to buy. Um, I think it's very cool. I I really like them, obviously. I wouldn't promote them. I think Phil knows I wouldn't promote it if I didn't like it. Yeah. You would know on certain terms. Yeah. Um, I I think it's think it's really amazing. I think what's happened with it is very cool. The fact it's sold out super quick. The fact that they're on Chrono 24 right now for double the price is is like mind-boggling. Um, I'm really glad that I have an extra 10 under under my uh under my bed that that I ordered directly from Hong Kong. Um, I'm just kidding. I I wish I wish I had some extras because I mean it's like the it's like the Monterey 2 at this point. Yeah, it's your 401k right. Yeah, you should have called it the Monterey 3. Sure. I'm sure the the I'm sure Arno would have been delighted. Phil Mike just alluded to it, but there's kind of been this boom in design driven watches. I feel like it's a lot of smaller brands uh or new brands like yours. We've covered things like Enoma and Amida on the site as well. But even AP did the remaster too, coincidentally, just a couple of weeks after. yours So I'm wondering speak individually about the AP or any of those other watches I mentioned, but just in general, this boom and sort of more design-driven watches we've seen over the past few years. Beautiful timing on that AP release. It was right
Phil Toledano (and Mike Nouveau in some segments) after yours, right, Phil? Yeah, it couldn't been better. I mean the funny thing was people were were messaging me going, I can't believe AP stole your design as if like this giant Swiss, you know, Gulivarian size company would in two weeks just whip out a watch reacting to the Beammouth
Tony Traina , Toledano and Chan. It is it is fun. It's funny you say that because obviously they had I'm sure they've been working on this watch for five years. Yeah. But just that that two weeks, really, I mean, people really were saying, like, oh, what's going on here? Just because of uh Toledo and Shanna, all these I mean, if you had what if you had launched two weeks later, and of course, again, obviously AP was not inspired by this watch, but the optics of it are so amusing to me because it it really is something like fairly similar. And it does look like, you know, for some just on the outside, it almost does look like AP is chasing Toledynam and Shen a little bit, and it's like
Phil Toledano (and Mike Nouveau in some segments) very, very amusing to me. I mean, it you're right, and it was crazy to even be in the conversation with AP. I mean, we're nothing, we're just a couple of geezers, and we're in suddenly, you know, people comparing our watches. I mean it was just lunacy. But in in response to your question, man, I would say, and I think I'm sure that I feel like Mike you've probably feel the same way, but I am so delighted just to see the landscape open up beyond like you know steel sports rolexes and and and all that kind of stuff like I just it's so great just to see more imagination in how people collect. Ye
Tony Traina ah. Yeah. One of the things I want to wrap up with with both of you is kind of just what's next, I suppose. It's this could be the plug whatever you're up to portion of today's programming if if you want to get self-promotional about it, but just what's next for both of you as far as the business projects you're working on or just if you want to talk about your personal collecting, anything like that. Mike, we can start with you. Okay, so I have um an app that just came out. It's called Pushers. It's in the App Store. It's basically a platform to browse through watches and we connect you directly to the dealer. There's no middleman. It's just a cool place to browse available, interesting watches from your phone. It's called Pushers. It's also available on the internet at pushers.io. It's the only place I list my watches for sale. Um, usually I'll view the watches with an unboxing on TikTok or something, and they'll end up on the pushers app. I built it with my uh business partner, Mike Bernstein, who's a programmer and a watch nerd. And uh I mean, yeah, that that that's the plug really. Uh every day we have new dealers joining. It's uh it's like an experiment. Phil has was instrumental in kind of pushing me, no pun intended, uh, to get this thing done and really like take it seriously. So it's just a very, very simple, fairly, you know, bare bones. What you see is what you get app to browse watches for sale from just legitimate vetted dealers, not filled with aftermarket crap you might see on other marketplaces. Like watches I would vouch for basically. Um and that's that's the app is called pushers. It's in the app store and hopefully there'll be an Android version soon. Thank you for letting me uh do the shameless plug. Uh yeah, completely shameless. I didn't know that's the direction you were going to go, but but very cool. Cool to see you kind of developing your your business from there. Phil, go ahead
Phil Toledano (and Mike Nouveau in some segments) I don't really have I don't really have anything to plug other than you know just crankywhane the next version of what a P would be um and always hunting for more weird watches what's the last watch you bought, Phil? Is it this this square paddock that you're wearing? Uh the last well, actually no the last one is the Zero Gro. Oh right, of course. It's gonna be hard to get any better than that
Tony Traina . Yeah, of course. You gotta take a break after that one, huh? Yeah. Yeah, a break for him is two days. Yeah, right, of course. One to two business days. Well, guys, I think we're gonna leave it there for today's discussion. I appreciate both Mike Nouveau and Phil Tiladano joining Hodinky Radio today. Thanks as always to our editor, Vic Automanelli, for help with the edit. And of course, thank you all for listening. And we'll see you all again next week for another episode of Hodinky Radio.