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In Conversation With Watchmaker Rebecca Struthers and Lewis Heath (Founder, AnOrdain)

Published on Wed, 19 Jun 2024 16:55:00 +0000

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Synopsis

In this episode of Hodinkee Radio, host Tony Traina speaks with two prominent UK-based watchmakers: Dr. Rebecca Struthers and Lewis Heath, founder of Anordain. The conversation explores their collaboration on enamel dial work, particularly for Rebecca's Project 248 watch, and how they first connected through shared challenges in champlevé enameling techniques.

Rebecca discusses her work as a watchmaker and restorer based in Staffordshire, including her extensive research into Dutch forgeries—18th-century Swiss watches made in Dutch style but signed with London makers' names. She shares insights from her book "Hands of Time" and talks about Project 248, a completely in-house manual-wind watch she and her husband Craig created using traditional methods and machines over 100 years old. The project took its name from "two watchmakers, four hands, and a traditional eight millimeter lathe."

Lewis details Anordain's journey as an enamel dial manufacturer in Glasgow, explaining how the company developed their fumé enamel technique through experimentation and how they've built a team largely from local art college graduates. Both guests discuss the challenges and benefits of collaborative watchmaking versus the modern trend toward vertical integration, arguing that the historical cottage industry model allows small makers to work at the highest level by partnering with specialized craftspeople. They also address the state of watchmaking education in the UK, the challenges of managing demand when handcraft limits supply, and their hopes for培养 the next generation of master watchmakers.

Transcript

Speaker
Tony Traina Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Hodinky Radio. Excited for this episode. We're hopping across the pond to the UK for two guests, two of my favorite people in the watch industry, if I'm being honest. First of all, Dr. Rebecca Struthers. Rebecca, how are you doing today? Hi, I'm great. Thank you. Thanks for having me on. And I've got a friend of yours, a friend of mine as well, Lewis Heath, who you all know surely as the founder of Anardane. Lewis, how are you doing today? Very well, thanks, Tony. Thank you for having us. Lewis,
Lewis Heath let's start with you. Where are you calling in from? I'm in my study in Glasgow, in my my flat, uh for various reasons. The the the studios are very busy. We're in in transitioning at the moment from that is full of boxes and there's no sort
Tony Traina of have people coming in and interrupting so we thought this was this was better. Well we're gonna get into this but this is one of the things I wanted to ask you about because we connected probably six months ago and you were talking about the new space that you were opening in Glasgow. So we're going to get to the state of Anardane in a bit here. But Rebecca, it looks like you're calling in from perhaps your your your workshop or your studio. It's we've got all kinds of g gadgets andizmos over both of your shoulders. Tell us tell us what's happening there. Yeah, so um we're in our workshop
Dr. Rebecca Struthers in Leek at the moment in Staffordshire, which is near the Peak District, if anyone knows that. Um so about an hour and a half north on the train from London. Um very pretty part of the world. So yeah, this is our workshop, all our old tools and machines. And um and I'm glad I've seen your cat as well now. So if anyone hears dog noises in the background, we've got Archie, our resident watchdog is in the workshop. So apologies in advance
Tony Traina . And you move how long has it been since you've been in that workshop? You moved what, a couple of years ago now? I
Dr. Rebecca Struthers don't think it was a year ago in January. So we were in Birmingham before this and London before that. So we've moved a few times, yeah, but just over a ye
Tony Traina ar and loving it. Whenever we've got a watchmaker in their studio or in their workshop, I should say, we have to ask for you to show us something cool on your desk. So maybe take a moment, pick up something you've got around you and tell us a little bit about it. Can I get up? So I'm not at my workbench at the moment. Yeah, ye yeah.ah. While you get up, I've got I'm gonna put you on the sp
Lewis Heath ot, Tony. A little bit. Have a look at this. Because I put this on today. Correct. Um so I thought I'd wear something that wasn't mine. Do you know what this is? Because I I can see
Tony Traina that it's terrible, isn't it? There you go. For those who aren't watching on the YouTube, some sort of cushion watch, it's got like a regulator style layout, but I don't think it's a chronograph. I think it's just like the hours at the top and then the date window is down below. Partially. It's um
Lewis Heath debate and a long word that I can't pronounce it too too second they they do they invented the split second chronograph apparently these two people. Rebecca you might know. So I'm not I'm not really testing, I just can't pronounce the second name, but it's lovely little thing. And I put it on today. And the typography, this is from the mid 90s. Um they make it's uh enamel with uh just lovely little numbers. Yeah, I d I found it in a little shop in Switzerland and seems very fun, but I've never heard anyone So Swiss made watch from the nineteen nineties? Yeah. By two um significant inventors uh according to Wikipedia. But that's all I know. I can't uh pronounce the second name because I can't quite read it on the watch and I've got terrible memory. But it just it's love is gold with enamel dial and um really fun numbers on it. So um well Lewis came to play. Rebecca, what about
Dr. Rebecca Struthers you? Well, I've just retrieved a Swiss made watch from the 1790s, which is a bit before that, which is I've got one of my Dutch forgeries. So this is what I covered them in my book as well. And I ended up writing a PhD on them. I found them so fascinating. But yeah, so this is a forgery of um a London made watch. You can just about see. It's by a maker called Tarts London. But it was actually made in Switzerland in a Dutch style, which I found such a weird contradiction in itself that yeah, I'd researched them for about 13 years and still collect data on them. They're fascinating. But yeah, they're made actually it's probably earlier than 1790s. It's probably more like 1770s, 1780s. And this is the first one I bought myself, like a complete piece as well. So
Tony Traina special. Why was why was it this one? I mean, uh, as you mentioned, you've been talking about these for years, they're in your book. You did an HSNY talk about them as well that kind of I imagine was like the culmination of your thesis in a lot of ways or your your PhD work. But what was it about this one that finally made you decide that you needed one for yourself? I'd wanted one for ages. It's
Dr. Rebecca Struthers just affording one and finding one at the right time and trying to get them complete as well. So a lot of them have ended up in a really bad state over the years. So dials aren't original, they've lost the case. Um so I just saw this one right time, right moment, all original, even got it the original chain that you just saw with it too. I was like, yes, this is this is my time. And Tarzan's one of the really famous names as well, which have it's also quite comical names. Where'd you find it from? It was an auction house in the UK
Lewis Heath . I just think you said that's Dutch style. What's that mean? What what's that?
Dr. Rebecca Struthers I don't know what that is. So sorry. Yeah, no, it's it's a very good question. Um the aesthetic Dutch style of that era um was very different to the English or Swiss style. So you've got the movement layout. In uh English watches, you used to have a single footed balanced cock, whereas in the Dutch style you have this double-footed balanced bridge with very wide feet. The French style was more of it was a bridge, but it was a larger plate with two tiny little feet. So this was aesthetically Dutch in that respect and also the arcading on the minute track. So there's a little scallop around each hour. And that was really popular on Dutch clocks at the time. So it's seen as a it's called the Dutch arch style was the traditional name for it, but it's not Swiss and it's not English. So is this Swiss watch copying an English watch pretending to be Dutch watch? Pretty much, yeah. Yeah. Well. Yeah. And that's yeah, that it made no sense to me either, which is like I I have to get the answ
Tony Traina ers to this question. Yeah. Rebecca, can you talk a little bit more about the Dutch forgeries for just a second? I don't want you to condense all of your work or all of your HSNY talk or whatever into a few minutes here. But can you just talk a little bit about them and then maybe tell people where they can go and find you to learn more about all the work you've done in the space
Dr. Rebecca Struthers ? Yeah, sure. I mean, my PhD PhD's online and um the HSNY talks online as well. So if anyone's interested in that. But it's um I was working at an auction house in Birmingham not long after I graduated, and I came across one of these watches, a pocket watch, late eight um, yeah, late 18th century that had it this one was signed Wilter London, but the style was different, and I didn't didn't really think much of it at the time until I looked it up in Loom's dictionary of watching plotmakers, and it just came up with the the the name Wilter John, perhaps a fictitious name, and that was it on it. I was like, right, okay. And this is when I looked them up a bit more and found they're related to something called a Dutch forgery, but that it was thought that these forgeries were made in Switzerland, although they're using London names and in a Dutch style. And that was it. That was all I could find out about the subject. I was like, none of this makes sense to me. And um yeah, 13 years later and uh a thesis on the subject. Um just studying how, yeah, tracing these watches back through sort of 250 years time across Europe, smuggling, strapping watches to dogs and sending them across the Swiss border, all sorts of like ships and wreckages and and yeah, smuggled cargo and yes, fascinating subjects. But how Dutch merchants basically led the trade in picking up watches from the the areas of Switzerland now that are iconic for watchmaking, and how the start of their industry kind of elevated out of there, really. So ye
Tony Traina ah, long term consequences. I will say one of the I've read your book obviously and I I wrote about it a year or so ago on on Hodinki. You can find that, it'll be in the show notes and all that type of good stuff. But you have a good section in there that kind of summarizes a lot of the work you've done in there as well, which is which is one of the places I'd recommend if you you want to discover more in the space. I want to move on from there, and people are probably wondering why Rebecca and Lewis are even on this podcast together. So maybe we'll start there and then we can work backwards. And maybe you can explain sort of the work you all have done together and even before that, how you all came to know each other. Yeah, sure. I think well, Lewis, I think you contacted us first, didn't
Lewis Heath you? Did I think I'm trying to remember this as well. I I I think when we launched I did a I did a kind of saying hello to everyone in the kind of local scene of watchmaking and just said hello, what do you want to be friends kind of thing and um and some people stayed uh you know said hello back and uh in fact everyone everyone's very nice but i mean you you and craig were um i think because we we had shared um i say shared you knew what you were doing and we we didn't so I had lots of questions for you. I still don't know if you know what we're doing. So that's yeah. So
Dr. Rebecca Struthers we got in touch. But anyway, um back to you. Yeah I think because we were doing enameled dials as well at the time or trying to, um, and not getting them to where we needed to be and kinda you were doing them and getting them to where we wanted to get them only. We were doing like the the metal floating in the the enamel kind of effect that you've been trying to do something similar, but it hadn't been working and yeah, we just got chatting out of that, I think really of kind of yeah, trying to come to the case.
Lewis Heath I remember I remember talking to you in the garden. You weren't in the garden, but I was I remember sitting in my garden talking to you and it being very like a lovely conversation because I'd seen your Champlay prototype like attempts uh on on Instagram and it was really similar to what we were trying to do at the same time. So it it seems sensible to um
Tony Traina to kind of see if we could do it together. Well, Lewis, that kind of hints at where where you guys went from after the introduction, after the cold email, it sounds like from Lewis, where it all went from there and you contributing enamel uh or enamel work and collaborating on the dials that uh would go on to some of Rebecca's project two four eight. So maybe you just pick up the story there a little bit. So I'
Lewis Heath d I because I'm not an enameler, but I'd we'd come to Shampoy. So Champer is a technique where the metal sticks up. So instead of printing on it, if you looked at something, it would be it would be the metal coming through the enamel instead of the well or as well as the the print on the dial surface. Um and I'd well I say I the um enamels had made a watch because it was the tenth anniversary of my wife and I uh a few years ago and I'd left a little bit late to get anything so tried to make a watch but it was too late to make a printing plate because it was like I think it was like one or two days before. So instead of printing we kind of cut out so put like eleven dashes for our markers then on the 10 you had a number 10 but kind of cut them out the metal and filled in everything else so you just saw eleven dashes and a 10. And it was a little rough and ready, but when when you could have wore it, when she wore it, it really kind of caught the eye because it was the silver uh it was the metal that was coming through. So on one light it would look very kind of simple and plain. And then another light it would really kind of draw your eye in. So she was I think it was over Christmas, she started wearing this and I I was just kept catching my and I thought we should we should do this, like look into this. And then the anamelist told me when it was cold, because I didn't I didn't realize then. Um and that was it. And and then, you know, I think about a year or so later there was Rebecca and Craig and work on the same thing. Um but what was quite interesting, I thought, is that that that chat when we kind of first started talking about it. Like those obviously those machines with tools behind Rebecca actually, that's actually how those guys work, isn't it? They're not, they're not kind of uh for display. Um and we'd been approaching it with quite uh we we with with um cold forging so trying to stamp it out rather than to make these to make the raised bits so the the indexes um and and you guys have been using quite a high tech method, which was completely like the other way around from what I'd expected. And I think if we'd kept going with um cold forging and stamping, we would still be trying it now. So it it was was it was really a proper kind of collaborating on that because uh we took their idea of how to do it and then did it over a long period of time. Did we introduce you to our clipping toolmaker as well? You did, that was before actually. Yeah, no, that was um that's been fantastic. Because we yeah, we were stuck. I think that's how we first start getting talking properly because we were stuck trying to work out how to make the food made dials. When we kind of came across that method of, well, it wasn't method at the time, of a warp dial that was lighter in the middle because the metal had buckled. Um, we were like, if we couldn't replicate this in a controlled way. And so we're going around all the different like CNC people that we could find on Google and yet no one was up for it. And then you you put us in touch. And then we've been working with them ever since. Well
Tony Traina yeah. Lewis can, you talk about this for just a second? I think I've heard you tell the story of Fume Enamel and how you guys kind of discovered that process. You kind of discovered it by accident and then went about figuring out how to make the process actually standardized and replicable. Bit in the watch, yeah. That
Lewis Heath was uh so we've been uh all of our enameling up to the first couple of years have been on copper. So you can enamel on on a few different metals, copper, silver, gold, high carbon steel, gilding metal, and there's a couple more, but there aren't that many. So we were using copper with opaque enamels. And then we started to experiment with silver as a base. Um and one of the experiments was with silver with transparent enamel. And the the heat of the kiln had warped this dial. And so there was a lot less enamel in the middle where it buckled and a lot more on the outside. So you had this lovely gradient of kind of blue to went light blue to dark blue. And we thought, well, this looks really nice. Um, and obviously four maize were you know has been around for ages, but uh it hadn't been done, you know, this was a different way of doing them and doing them in an ammo so um we wanted replicate a dial which was thicker in the middle and thinner on the outsides and can flat all the way around the bottom so it you know it has to be still has to be perfectly flat underneath to fit in the case. Um so you have this little mountain of of metal and then you you put an amel over the top and it so it's thick on the edges and thinner in the middle, then thick to the edge. And that's it's a very simple idea. But getting some to form a piece of silver like that was um was the first challenge is where I got in touch with R
Tony Traina ebecca. Rebecca, we've been talking about the enamel work and the dial work that went into all of this and how you all became connected with each other. But I think if my understanding is correct, this all came out of uh what you pro what what you call project two four eight, which is a a much bigger endeavor that that you and your husband Craig obviously have been working on for for quite some time. The culmination of a lot of your work is a watchmaker and restorer. So I don't want that story to get lost in the enamel work, which is obviously very important enough as well, but maybe you could just talk about uh that project a little bit and tell people even what what it even was and why it deserved such such uh splendid enamel work, I suppose
Dr. Rebecca Struthers . Yeah. I mean two four eight was our kind of our in many ways we call it our school watch. Um Scray and I trained as restorers, that was our kind of main line of work. And you get to a point as a restorer where you realise that you've made pretty much every component for someone else's watch, and um how about you know let's give it a go making every part for our own watch so 248 was our first completely in-house movement that we made using all these old machines behind me um and the two four stand eights for two watchmakers, four hands, and a traditional eight millimeter lathe, which I think is one of those. So you have several of those, I says technically several eights, but um yeah, that was uh a huge, huge project. Uh we had no idea when we went into it quite how much we were taking on. It's incredible because it's just a a time only manual wind watch, but when you're making every single component down to every last screw yourself from scratch, every last balance weight, everything. It's incredible how many parts, even just go into basic manual mind watch. Um, let alone making it on, I mean, our oldest machines are about 9010 so over 120 years old um and some some of our hand tools are 19th century as well so proper old school methods but that's why we wanted to do something really traditional with our approaches as restorers. We kind of cherry-picked from the last 150 or so, actually 200 or so years of watchmaking to pick our favourite designs, styles, developments. I mean, it's got a Bragae parachute shock setting a proper functioning one um we use German silver from the plates because we love South German watchmaking um the engraver we work with is in Germany as well uh the the style of the balance and weights were taken from George Daniels Watchmaking. It's uh an English lever escapement, which hadn't been commercially made in the UK for over a century. Um, so we kind of like picking these different things to kind of in our mind of where could the English industry be now if it hadn't kind of tailed off at the end of the 19th century and put it into one watch? And enamel obviously was such a traditional style of English watch styles, if you go back to second half of the 18th and 19th century, we used to make a lot of them, but um it that fizzles out completely. And I think before this we're huge fans of Annaldane's work anyway. And I think a lot of that is that the industry was pretty much commercially extinct before them. And they brought it back from nothing, which is just a huge achievement. Um, not only in terms of the skill and the craft, but also in what it demonstrates that you can run a really successful business out of a traditional craft, which feels almost impossible, but there they are doing it growing. And there's such a young team as well. So again, this idea of traditional crafts are kind of this aging market, little old men hunched over machines and lathes and things. Come on, Lewis isn't that old
Lewis Heath .
Tony Traina Just gone on gone back to being nice for ours. Well, before we get back to to Ann Ordain and both of you, I wanted to ask Rebecca, obviously developing the enamel dial was surely just one of the challenges you encountered in developing the watch, but the movement specifically. So I'm wondering if you could just choose maybe one specific component and uh maybe one of the more difficult ones, why it was so difficult, and then sort of how you were able to to solve for developing that specific component
Dr. Rebecca Struthers . Yeah, I mean one I spoke about we spoke about recently on Instagram was making a barrel, just a main spring barrel in a watch, because you don't realize the amount of dimensions and it's not you've got components working inside components that have to work inside another component. And when you're not using CNC, you're just using old machines. You've got traditional kind of measuring tools. You've got nothing. Yeah, there's no CNC in the first two four eight whatsoever. It's it's a lot more than you'd think because it's quite a big thing within a watch, but there's so much more, like there are more um measurements and dimensions to think about in a main spring barrel than there is in a balance staff, which is a fraction of the size, but a lot more straightforward. So it's things like that that took us by surprise because we thought, oh, that would be the easy bit and the balance is going to be the hard bit. No. Other way around. Um and even just turning them because they're all hand turned as well. So if you make a mistake, you've got sort of over 10 processes that go into making it. And if you make a mistake at process 10, you back to one again and have start again from scratch. So there was a lot of yeah it was a huge, huge learning curve. I mean to be honest, everything was a bit of a challenge in one way or another
Lewis Heath . But we got there. I have a a a memory from this. At the end of this process, I 'cause I I was just before launch I called to see with Breck and Craig to see how it's going. And uh you were you were both in a state of panic, I think it's fair to say, but but holding it together just about but it turns out and I I can have maybe correct me if I've got this one wrong, but you had um got a photographer who wasn't used to photographing watches to do the the launch shots and then after he'd done the shots, m um Craig had melted the case back down because he wasn't quite happy with it to start again. And then the photographs came back and they were rubbish. So they had a watch or they had didn't have a watch and they didn't photographs and they were going to launch like two days later. But I just I think um that I always kind of obviously very stressful moment for you guys but it it it made me um just lovely thing because how many people do you know who meant melt the cases down because they're not quite happy with them and then start again? It's just uh it was a in hindsight, it was a nice story, I thought, but obviously not something. That's the time for us, you know. No, I know.
Dr. Rebecca Struthers Yeah, I mean it's gotta be right at the end of the day, because obviously watches like that come with a price point too, and they're it's gotta be right. Um so if we're not happy with it, we will start again and that takes time, but luckily our clients are are very patient with us touch wood. But Lewis, I think you've pretty much summarised the last twelve years of our company there, with the whole uh in a state of panic but holding it together. Is it but is it it's
Lewis Heath kind of perfectionism and skill as well that I was I was more going rather than the stress and the panic.
Tony Traina But it all goes together, doesn't it? Rebecca mentioned something that I want to get into a little bit with both of you. And I think Lewis, it kind of dates back to even when and why you founded Anordain, which was in what, like twenty fifteen? Yeah, then slowly a bit before that, but yeah. Maybe if you could just talk about that time and sort of the impetus and the motivation for you founding the company because I think it gets to some of what Rebecca's speaking to about wanting to build things it around you first of all and then using craftsmen and craftswomen that that you know around you and the tradespeople around you. So if you could just talk about the original motivation and how it's sort of inspired the way you've built Anardain over the past decade.
Lewis Heath Yeah, I mean, I'd I'd I'd had an idea of making watches for for years. Before I knew anything about watches or was interested in them, just because I thought this could have the right ingredients for being an interesting way to spend your time, you know, design, engineering, and living somewhere that's interesting. Um but it was when so I'd started a company making audio products out of art college and it got fairly big. And uh we would we were designing things in the UK and but everything's getting made China. And this this got just very frustrating for me because you would get excited about an idea, about a design, um, and then you'd send it off. Then the next day you'd get a reply from the fact you're saying, no, it's not possible kind of thing and and you'd always have this language and the time barrier. Um so anadone really started as as a kind of therapeutic thing I suppose to to give me an outlet to do something that was all under one roof that you could you know you could have the people designing and the people making either being the same people being in the same space and you know you see you see what's happening and what goes wrong and you know it's it's a very closed sort of loop in that respect. Um so it's just that that was really the idea for for for starting. Um so we yeah there was there was Adam, my first enameler was sitting there for in the studio for three years, pretty much just plodding away, trying to work out to make enameled als. And it was there was no kind of commercial plan behind it. It was just, you know, I I was in a position that my my work was going fairly well in my other company and I was able to fund that. Um and then it got, you know, the old company got more and more frustrating and the new one more and more appealing. So it sort of jumped. And um I really had no idea anyone was gonna I guess at the time if you don't you know it's an awful lot of money for a watch, thousand pounds to have you know, by that time I'd left the old company, I was running out of money fairly quickly and thinking, God, is anyone actually can buy these things? You know, but it was you know was a bit of panic at that stage. But it was yeah, it's it's always been just interesting to do, and that's
Tony Traina what It seems as though you've built the company obviously enamelers uh I I would imagine are a large part of your workforce, but also it seems as though you hire a lot of designers, artists from local sort of art and design schools and it seems as though that really impacts just like the product and the aesthetic of the company. Is that is that feel right to you? Yeah, it I mean w
Lewis Heath we We have amazing art colleges in um well in this country and in lots of places, but yeah, what what's weird is you get incredibly talented, passionate people going through art school educations and then working in coffee shops or you know, working in something completely unrelated to art and to be able to work those people in in the kind of field that's semi-related. But it's it results in I think in quite nice atmosphere and just people feel like they're you know they're making something enjoy doing which is good. 'Cause you you went you and Craig went to art college, didn't you? What are you saying? Did yeah. Yeah. I mean
Dr. Rebecca Struthers they couldn't get rid of me. Um but uh yeah we yeah we did. So um we actually studied the British Horological Institute courses how we got into watchmaking, which is leaving one, like the not even course. No, it's full-time. Oh, it's full-time with it, right? Yeah, they you can't do it full-time now. But I yeah, did jewelry and silversmithing for two years and then switched over to watchmaking for another three years.
Tony Traina Yeah. Can you just talk about that finding watchmaking from starting in jewelry, silversmithing, and that type of stuff and and finding watchmaking and the attraction and all of that type of stuff
Dr. Rebecca Struthers ? Yeah. I mean a lot of it was accidental. So um I've always loved science and I love art and that that's me from childhood. Um but at school you're not really taught about the disciplines that link the two, you're taught them as very different subjects, and you can be a successful scientist or a dreaming artist and it's not really a way to bring it together, which of course in the real world is the absolute opposite. There's so many different careers that combine the two. Um but I ended up doing all sciences for my A levels um high school then dropped out because I hated it, ran away to art school purely because um I was an air cadet at the time. So I was planning on joining the army at one point. Um, but that's a whole other story. Anyway, I ended up one of the cadet leaders was a jeweller and was like, oh, you've got a school of jewellery down the road, why don't you go and check it out? And I did and I just love the space. I love the atmosphere. I love the making and the smells and the sight and just the light and everything. It just felt so active. I thought, yeah, okay, I'm going to do this. So I signed up to a national diploma course, left school, went off and did that for two years, which was fantastic, really hands-on, kind of proper foundation skills of sore piercing, filing, drilling, just the skills that you really need to make stuff. And um it was through that that I discovered there was also a watchmaking course at the same campus. And before that, yeah, I I didn't realize it was a career. I've never heard of it. And um, a couple of the students on the watchmaking course saw my work in a show when I was doing kind of basic articulated and automata pieces, and they were like, Oh, Rebecca, you look like you might find watchmaking interesting. Why don't you have a look round? And they showed me around the workshop and I was just like, this is it. This is what I've been looking for my whole life. This is what I want to do. And um that was it um finished the jewelry course went on to watchmaking and that's been it ever since and one of those students was Craig who found me who was already in his
Tony Traina first year so yeah. Rebecca, you mentioned it working with other craftspeople around around your country and even around around the world more broadly. In fact, I guess it's kind of how you all came to even know each other and then work together, but you all obviously both have careers and businesses now that are centered around craftspeople and tradespeople and all of those types of things. But I'm wondering if you could just sort of speak about the importance of that to you, number one, and why you think it's sort of an important thing and then also just the importance of like collaborating with these types of craftspeople and tradespeople that are sort of really good at what they do. Yeah. I mean, I suppose
Dr. Rebecca Struthers for me and Craig, it's it is, it really is just the two of us and our dog Archie, of course, um, in the workshop. So collaborating for us is a really important part of the process because for that moment with that project, our team of just us expands to a whole group of people, all contributing their own skills, each of whom have spent their lifetimes dedicating to excellence in whatever their chosen field is, that you know, we would never be the engravers or enamelers that I mean and ordained would never compete with them on enameling. We just can't, we're watchmakers. So collaboration really is the only way for a small business to work at the very highest level possible. And it's just, it's a joy. I we really work love working with creative people. You you end up being so much more innovative and creative for having those discussions and conversations and even just yeah, keeping an open dialogue between other workshops and what we're working on, what our challenges are and seeing how we can feed into each other and help each other out is yeah, it's um lovely way to work
Tony Traina . It's kind of the historical roots of of watchmaking in the watch industry as well, right? I mean, before the whole trend towards in-house everything of the past twenty or thirty years is this kind of how it went, right
Dr. Rebecca Struthers ? Yeah. I mean it it's it yeah like you say it's the history of the industry particularly the British side of things which is why I find the whole in-house thing I I call it the George Daniels effect. There was never the whole like in-house British watchmaking thing before Daniels and now it's like the epitome of of watchmaking. But um yeah, because you have the industries if you go back to the 19th century, you have the American industry, which was very much standardized mass manufacture. You had the British industry, which was still cottage industry is making very small numbers of watches in comparison, still making a few thousand watches a year at peak production. And then you had the Swiss came in and managed to combine that luxury marketing with the American mass manufacturing to become the industry today. So yeah, collaboration was everything. Areas like Clark and Well and Hatton Garden and the jewelry quarter we used to be based in were these little collectives of makers
Lewis Heath . Sorry, Lewis, I think I've clicked you off on you. No, no, it's all I I was just thinking there is still a lot of, I mean the Swiss industry still a lot of, you know, separate trades, you know, you still have dial makers and handmakers. And I think it maybe gets put out that it's people like to make everything look more in-house than it is, but apart from kind of That's certainly true. Yeah. Yeah, the the people still do that. It's just sounds you know you see a lot of um in house dials made in in uh in certain factories that you know obviously are but it's just a lot of it is marketing. But it's it's a good like like you were saying earlier. It's you know, you do what you're good at and you you stick to that. And I think it's just a fairly good way of approaching th
Tony Traina ings. Can you talk about the state of watchmaking in the UK and then it what it means to you, if anything, to sort of be based there in a watch and or in an industry that is more sort of focused on on Switzerland and Swiss watch watchmaking
Lewis Heath . Of course, I'm not gonna be I'm just gonna say positive things about if I may say if
Tony Traina I may say though quickly quickly before you answer, I reached out to you years ago for to do an article about dial making or whatever it was, and obviously you're one of the first people to reach out to. And one of the things that that charmed me about you is how how candid you were about about what other people were doing. And that's why, you know, all these years later, that's why we're here now. So please proceed. Please proceed with that in mind. Um
Lewis Heath no, I d I thought was a so what was the the question was British much yeah, there's lots of good people doing good things now. Um lots of good people whom we Oh come on Lewis. Oh yeah, no, I think I think well Rebecca and I were doing involved the BHI recently weren't we in uh kind of how to progress in you know BHI is British horror horological instrument. Sorry, yeah it is um the the BHI and the heritage crafts trust so they're they're looking at how you can kind of have a future for the watch industry. And it's I think one of the observations is it's fairly everything's fairly separate. I mean this is a small, it's a small world here, but you've got that and then you've got other organizations, and it it's seems like there's perhaps working together is got to be one of the aims to get things going. Um, but there are, I mean, there are some like obviously these guys, this Frodsham, Garrick, they're all genuinely making watches and making, you know, doing some watchmaking, which is which is good. And I think that's what it comes down to at the end is training people, getting expertise in the country and there might be a lot of people who are, you know, doing more marketing and sales than making watches, but there are also people making watches coming out of that. Yeah. So that wasn't very, very coherent, was it? Rebecca, what do you think? It's gracefully answered though. I have no
Dr. Rebecca Struthers idea who you Yeah, you should run for office. So it's quite political Lewis. Wow. We've got an election coming up there. Yeah. I mean, um, we've never been as a company this kind of brand British, everything's gotta be British. Um, we're really open about wanting to work with the best craftspeople wherever they're based, which again is quite a traditional approach. If you look back at sort of even going back to the 17th, 16th, 17th century, you'd work with Lepidorish stone-cutters in Antwerp, you'd work with Anamlers in Switzerland and France and that like that was just the way the industry was and there was no issue with it. So yeah, I mean our engraver, one of our engravers is in Germany, and one of our strap manufacturers is in um France, and then we've got uh an enamel painter we just started working with in China, and it's for us it's about finding the best people at their crafts rather than yeah
Lewis Heath being but you know that's I think that's I'm completely on the same page with that. And I want to say before actually, one of the lovely things about doing the two for eight dial for you is that I think a lot of people would have taken the view that you know we sell watches that are X amount and they're very exclusive, and you sell watches a lot cheaper and therefore we wouldn't want to be associated with you. But for you and Craig, it's very much about, you know, the making and the craft and what, you know, the products, which I think is a very it's a good way,
Dr. Rebecca Struthers good way of doing it. I think that's something our industry could benefit more from is moving away from the trying to be in house with everything because it's really unless I mean unless you the scale of companies like Rolex and Patek, how do you really make things realistically and economically in-house completely? It's virtually impossible. So I think celebrating that collaborative approach more instead of trying to say you've done everything yourself looking for people to work with and supporting other small manufacturers. Like there's so much we would benefit from in the UK. Like we would love to work with a case maker. At the moment we make all our own cases in-house, but we would love to find like actually call to action. Any goldsmiths, silversmiths, or people um working in allied trades who'd like to get into that. We'd love to collaborate with someone else because it allows us then to focus more on the watchmaking, which is the bit we really love doing. Um and yeah, having enamelers like an ordained has been just a miracle really, because like twenty years ago we wouldn't have been able to do that. It just the skills didn't exist here. So that's that's fantastic. And yeah, small engineers, precision engineers. Um, those are the sort of companies that we really, really could do with. And we need to talk about them and shout about them and celebrate how invaluable they are to us, I think, to encourage more people to pursue subjects like that
Tony Traina . We mentioned a we we've been talking a little bit about the benefits of in-house versus collaboration. And I'm curious if this is a bit of a uh consumer education issue, or maybe even if the tide has changed a little bit because over the past few decades or however long it's been, there's been this narrative that in-house is good and it means better and all of these types of things. But it seems as though consumers have become more educated and they've perhaps turned a little bit and learned to view that word or perhaps just any marketing that a big brand does with more skepticism. So I'm wondering if there's anything there if you all have felt felt that as well
Dr. Rebecca Struthers . Yeah. I mean we've well, we've been our own company for twelve years making watches for ten and um certainly our clients love the collaborative approach because I think they like the idea that they're investing not just in a watch but in a watch that is supporting this whole little economy of watchmakers. So it's not just about kind of getting a nice thing at the end of it. They also know that there's a whole group of people now that are able to practice their craft doing what they do because of the investment of people like our our clients. Um and we yeah we share like we have a monthly mailing lists that just goes out to our clients past pres,ent, and future, where they see some of the people that we work with and we share their stories. And sometimes they end up in direct contact with them and commissioning them for things like Methods Studio, who I know an ordained have worked with as well, but we've had clients commissioning them for work after introductions through us. So it's it's kind of part of this little family, I suppose. And yeah, our clients seem to really like that. Um I don't know if that would have been the same kind of 20 or 30 years ago, but certainly now that feels like that's the case. I think there's a big like the
Lewis Heath that space of time has been a lot of education of customers, which is the so they understand the value in in uh in in certain things where as before it felt like it was a lot more brand driven. So you know if if they understand what goes into work then they can they they understand why it's good value or or not
Tony Traina . So I think that's really helped. Lewis, I wanna stay with you for just a minute because we caught up towards the end of last year and we talked about a number of things. One of which was the fact that you were opening a new all-in-one sort of studio workshop, whatever you want to call it in in Glasgow. Uh, and then you were planning uh alongside that perhaps you were planning to sort of reopen your order book, which you know, extends at least a few years into the future. And I know earlier this year you opened that back up. Uh, and then obviously the model three has come out and has been a success for you. So I'm wondering if you could pick up on on any of those threads in the way you want, but just sort of give us an update on on what's been going on at Aradane because I know it's been sort of a a busy time for you all. Yeah. I mean there's I think one of the
Lewis Heath things we've not launched an awful lot over the past couple of years. And I think one of the issues we've had is being a little bit too um like trying to take on trying to do things which are really difficult and then you end up with nothing coming out of it at the end. So we've been very busy with development projects. Um and so it's been fairly quiet on the output front, I think. But we've got a fair bit over the next two years which is look which are looking really interesting. Um one of the things actually is is um is porcelain, which we'd not, which we'd start looking at about 80 months ago, um, because it's visually fairly similar to an amel, but it's made in a completely different way. You can kind of pour it or cast it it or form so it has lots of different properties. So so that's something that we've been putting a lot of time into uh as a you know as a future product line. Um there's some some movement projects which have kind of come out. And I think what what you you were mentioning earlier about people's view on in-house changing, you know, I think I think a few years ago it was a case that in-house is better and off the shelf was worse, you know. It was that kind of black and white. But I think people started to understand that things like servicing and reliability that you get with having made, you know, hundreds of thousands of movements is is really important. So our you know our our kind of work on movements for the past couple of years has been based on using kind of you'd cliche would be workhorse bases and and kind of making them useful so you've got the kind of reliability and the value that you get from off the shelf with with the aesthetics that come from something more kind of sort bespoke um to that that that stuff that'll be coming up
Tony Traina . Both of you have this interesting not a problem necessarily but a situation where you're constricted on supply sort of naturally because of the handmade or human touch that goes into all of your products, which means that sort of demand outstrips supply that you can reasonably make. So I want to ask both of you this question, but I'll I'll start with Rebecca and sort of just talk about the the challenges or the opportunities, depending on how you want to look at it of something like that and how you even think about uh allocating or distributing your watches when you're making so few of them for all of the reasons we've kind of been talking about.
Dr. Rebecca Struthers Yeah. I think there are no problems, only challenges is the saying, isn't it? Um so we operate a billbook system and reserve build slots, um, which actually closed at the moment now. So we've got 10 years ahead, and we're like, right, okay. That's that's plenty long enough. Um, and yeah, we can only produce sort of three to four watches a year typically, um, one of the in-house. Um but I think we like to collaborate with other companies where that kind of really takes off and that would allow us to make more pieces. Um, the really kind of handcrafted stuff, obviously, you're always going to be limited um because it just takes so long to make and with only two watchmakers as uh we already do more than we should do. So it it is tricky, but I think kind of managing buildbook systems is a really good way of doing it. And um we have got a reservation kind of a list for people waiting on any cancellations and stuff. And beyond that, I think the biggest challenge for us is kind of maintaining awareness that we're still going in the middle of all of this because we've got no stock. We don't have time to make stock. So we've got nothing we can exhibit. We get asked to participate in events and fairs and all the rest of it. And it's like, well, I'd love to, but we've got nothing we can show you because a watch is finished and it's out the door. Um, and in the meantime, obviously you've got to think about the long-term value of your watches, because even though we won't see the potential of that our clients will. And you know, we're not completely naive. Like clients do want to see some long-term investment potential out of their watch. So if we just thought, right, 10-year build book, order books close, we're just going to get our heads down and work and we're not going to do any kind of PR or marketing or put ourselves out there in any way, then no one's going to know we're still going. You kind of need to occasionally come up and say hi. We're still here. Um so that's a challenge of how to do that, but that's things like the book and social media and stuff's been really helpful to keep kind of the message out there that we're still doing things, sharing our processes, supporting other watchmakers as well. I get so many messages on social media from young watchmakers wanting to do similar things and asking for advice all over the world as well, like where we get materials from, who we work with, things like that, and just sharing sharing everything. Yeah
Tony Traina . Lewis, it's a similar problem for you in the sense that you know your your order book was closed for quite some time. I think you opened it back up towards the beginning of this year, and perhaps it's still open now, but maybe you can talk sort of similarly about how you manage that
Lewis Heath . So it's permanently open now. I think we realize that's the best thing to do. We had, I think we were worried about working at the time three or four years ahead, you know, not just being able to guarantee that certain things be available and whatnot. And we we didn't be taking deposits on stuff we can make. But I think um you know, that was perhaps being overly cautious and um yeah, we just it's it's a it's always been um a kind of first come, first served model and um and that it seems the only I suppose the only it seems the fairest way of doing it, I think if if you want if you want a build slot. So it's it's done on time rather than a product. So you don't choose a watch, you choose a build slot. So something else that's come out, um then you can choose that then. But we don't um and I I think when people get used to that everyone seems fairly happy with it. We did um see we we we've never we've been one cue jumper that we've allowed, and that was um it was a university in America who wanted to buy a watch for a Nobel Prize winner from somewhere spec. I can't I shouldn't that's probably conf um and it they won Nobel Prize and they were from here. Um and we thought well if you can't let them jump the queue then who can you? You know. But apart from that, it's like, you know, it's special. Um, you know, 'cause you'll be fair. So do everyone out there just win a Nobel Prize and then you'll get you'll get your anodate. If you're from Glasgow and if you can win one otherwise, go, yeah. But it was yeah, they you get a lot of people saying I could buy three and you gonna would you let me get them quicker or stuff like that or um but it's just it's just you know
Tony Traina simple rules so Rebecca you said something there that I wanted to have you expand on just a little bit sort of about encouraging young watchmakers, potential watchmakers. Something we hear about in the US, and I assume it's the same in the UK is just the uh lack of watchmakers, or how there's a real sort of uh there's not a lot of them around and not a lot of people are are training in that space. So I'm wondering uh what what advice you give to to folks in that space that maybe are pursuing that path or or are thinking about it
Dr. Rebecca Struthers . It's it's a huge challenge, and I think that's one of the biggest challenges in the industry is that massive skills gap. So you've got opportunities to qualify as a watch technician and courses to help you get a good foundation level of skills in the UK. And we're fine in that respect, but to elevate from being a technician to being a master watchmaker, there's this huge gap. Um, and when it used to take sort of seven to ten years to train a master watchmaker from scratch, um, and you've got courses in the degrees in the UK that lasts anywhere between a year and three years. It's just not enough. And then yeah, the the space in the middle when you've got a lot of them will end up working for the big brands and companies who have no vested interest in making master watch makers. They want service technicians, so they're not training them. Um, there are no other schools and courses you can go to to get those higher level qualifications. At the same time, you've you've got a few charities in the middle, like um the Queen Elizabeth Scholarship Trust in the UK will fund specific training. So if you've already qualified, you already have foundation skills, but you want to elevate your craft in some way. Places like Wastep, the school in Switzerland offer short courses on turning and things like that. So you can apply for funding to go over to Switzerland and spend a few weeks training at Wastep and bring those skills back home again. So there are opportunities like that. Um but it is yeah it's it it's a tricky one. Um especially because the the master watchmakers that there are tend to be quite small companies and it's really hard to train someone um because it's a lot of time and a lot of energy. Um but I mean the same they're having the same problem in Switzerland. You know, I mean they are lacking kind of finishers and everything from people who can make gongs for repeaters. Those really specialist niche skills. Um they are rare, rare creatures. And hopefully I think brands will get to a stage where they think, okay, maybe we do need to invest a bit more. And that might involve them, help involve them perhaps supporting other companies if they can train and take on people in-house. It'd be lovely to have that kind of recognition that we all need these skills really and what's affecting us, it's still going to be affecting bigger companies. So yeah, we we've fo
Lewis Heath und anything on the upside, I would say that um the most popular job that we've hosted as an apprentice watchmaker. And that's out of like every you know photography, web design, enameling, every job. And there was, I think it was 150 applicants for this um job a couple of months ago. So that I think that was really and most of them were kind of young, I'd seen more more female than male, mostly, an awful lot of jewelers as well. And that's who we ended up hiring actually was was a very good jeweller. Um, who started today. And there's a couple more that we want to take on. But it's I I don't think it's for a lack of um you know, there's there's interest and I think if anything there's more interest in watchmaking from a kind of a an entry point of view than it was a few years ago because people see it as a I think people see it as a kind of a respite from the like screens and technology and everything is qu
Dr. Rebecca Struthers ite a yeah I definitely agree with that. Uh I think but that also summarizes the problem. We've got the interest, but the opportunity is what's lacking.
Lewis Heath Yeah. I mean, I think we've I mean we're hoping to take on a couple more, but I think what we the reason we're we're hiring is because our the the watchmaker we trained uh for the past four years got post by one of the big A D's and you know like you spend all the time training them and and they offer them five grand more and the promise of working on Patek and whatever and they're off. So you gotta start again. Um so it's a it's a tricky one, you know. And I I think one of the one of the approaches, because it' thats's the second time it's happened as well. Um so I think we're we're kind of separating it to get more into assembly and watch making and and giving the watchmakers more interested in projects and the assembly people more of a part-time thing, like so that that's the part of their broader working week, so they can be doing jewelry in the rest of the time or whatever they want to do. And that that seems to be really big for people
Tony Traina . You know, since we're talking about watchmaking, uh, this is a bit of a a a shift, but I wanted to ask Rebecca just a few really specific weird questions about being a watchmaker. I think the first one is uh, you know, from your perspective, what makes a good watch or from a watchmaker's perspective, what even makes a good watch? And for us, I
Dr. Rebecca Struthers suppose this restore is it's the serviceability of it, how easy it is to take it apart, fix it, put it back together, um, to make new parts for it as well. Um so I mean, obviously with things like 3D printing, we'll probably be in a very different position in sort of 10, 20 years' time from now in terms of what parts we can make. But um like you see a big shift in restoration from you really a kind of machine-made pieces from the up until sort of the 1960s when plastics and things start sneaking into even mechanical movements. And with those, you have to find a replacement component or you can't you can't make a replacement plastic thing very easily at that scale um certainly as a small business um and again i see it with some modern watches including some incredibly expensive watches looking at them thinking, God, I don't want to work on that in 40 years time. I am glad I'm not going to be around responsible for maintaining that. For us, it's it's yeah, it's that kind of can you repair it? That's that's the mar
Lewis Heath k of a good watch to me. What's a good example, Rebecca? You've got 'cause you have an air king, don't you? And Rolex in the sixties are meant to be. Is that is that right?
Dr. Rebecca Struthers Yeah, yeah. We've got yeah, vintage Rolex are great things to work on and eager as well. Like thirty T Two was um a calibre that we use for our first Kingsley series. And um we uh actually we discovered this before we started using it, but George Daniels experimented with this coaxle that he retrofitted into a 30T2. It's a proper watchmaker's watch movement that. Lovely, lovely thing to work on. They just want to run, which is a real treat to work with. Yeah. Valju 90 as well. That's what we're using for our next Kingsley's. And that's another fantastic movement used by a lot of great companies for that reas
Tony Traina on. One of the things I really like about your book, Hands of Time, I guess this is the the plug to go and buy the book. It's a quick, it's less than 300 pages, right? And it's a super breezy read. I read it on vacation. So for those that think a watchmaking book or a book about watches is not an easy, breezy read, Rebecca's completely is, and I would totally recommend to sort of go check it out. But one of the things that I really enjoyed about the book is the way in which you take stories of restorations or old vintage and antique watches that have come across your desk, watches that you've personally encountered, and you're you manage to sort of weave those into the macro level history of watches and watch making. I mean you go all the way back to uh the sundials and watches or clocks, I should say, that were running on on water and rivers and things like that. But uh I I'm wondering if you could tell us just maybe one of your favorite stories of a of a restoration and or a watch that had sort of a cool story that kind of came across your bench. Yeah, sure. I mean, I wrote that bo
Dr. Rebecca Struthers ok in my mind. I was thinking of who I want my reader to be with that book. And I was thinking, I want to write this book for all the people who think watches are boring and can't understand why on earth we're into this subject or it has such a big following to show them exactly why this is such a cool and fascinating subject. I want everyone who reads it to come away from it a full-blown watch geek. That that was kind of like my idea with it. And yeah, weaving in the stories of some of the incredible pieces that we've had the pleasure of working on over the years was just part it is part of the magic, isn't it? We see anything with incredible provenance coming through and to handle that and think about what that object has seen. If it could tell you stories, what stories would it tell? Um out of the book, I mean one of the incredible pieces I talk about is a Mervado wings that was um on the wrist of uh of a gunner who was shot down in his plane during the Second World War after the Dunkirk evacuations. And um narrowly he was the only survivor of the crash in the watch nearly went missing and it was found again and kind of it was passed on through the generations his son brought it in and with these incredible stories about how we ended up um on a ship with captain scott's son was the captain of the ship and kind of all these incredible just almost tea incredible to be true stories that went with this watch and he said like I don't know if any of this is true. My dad used to brag about it, but I don't know if it was true. So I went away and I I researched every detail and even down to like the the crash records, the names of the people on board, that um he escaped on the last ship to make it off back to the UK, who was captained by um Captain Scott, the the son, the only son of the famous explorer Captain Scott. And I was just like every every box was ticked and um just incredible. And being able to confirm that as well for the family that yeah so there's more details of that in the book but um it was just one of those goosebumps moments of just wow and and this watch came into us like missing parts looking like it being in a plane crashed so um yeah put,ting that back into a state where they could wear it and he's leaving it to his children and kind of you just feel as a watchmaker you get to play a tiny little part in the story of an object that was around before you and will be around for essentially hundreds of years after you're gone. And it's um special thing to be able to do
Tony Traina . Last question for both of you, I suppose. We've talked a little bit about stuff and projects you've done together, but anything you're all talking about doing together now or working on now that you want to share? I'm gonna remind you actually, Rebecca, because I was
Lewis Heath thinking before. You're gonna teach us case making. Um, I think Craig very kindly.
Dr. Rebecca Struthers We need to write up the notes for that. Yeah, that's the big thing. Yeah, you said that six months ago. I know. And we still just cause we have no time. I know. We have a tendency of going away on holiday to places with no internet or phone signal just so we can do some work without interruption. It's hard to find these days, isn't it? It really is. Um yes, we need to do something like that. And I'm working on a kid's book at the moment that'll be out next year and all day make an appearance in that
Lewis Heath . So I should say that Sally, I mean all the stuff you said that that when we vote together, it's all been Sally uh rather than me or any you know as it's kind of uh one of our very good enablers. She's in the book, isn'
Dr. Rebecca Struthers t she? She is. Yes. I don't know if it's going to be a photo of her or a cartoon version of her. I'm hoping for cartoon.
Tony Traina That's great. Well, I think we're going to leave the discussion there for today. Thank you to Dr. Rebecca Struthers and to Lewis Heath of Anardane for joining me again on another episode of Hooding Geek Radio. Thanks to Vic Autominelli, our editor, and thank you all for listening. And we'll see you all again next week.