Eric Ku and Justin Gruenberg (Loupe This)¶
Published on Wed, 22 May 2024 16:55:00 +0000
Today on the podcast I'm thrilled to have two legendary collectors and dealers join me, Eric Ku and Justin Gruenberg. Of course, Eric is no stranger to Hodinkee, having appeared on the site, Talking Watches, and this podcast. He got his start as a vintage watch dealer, soon founding 10Past10 back in 2005. Most recently, he co-founded the online auction site Loupe This in 2021. He's since become known for his expertise in Rolex, Cartier, and pretty much all things vintage. Eric's Loupe This co-founder is today's other guest, Justin Gruenberg. Justin is a second-generation watch and jewelry dealer from L.A., and since joining the family business he also founded the vintage dealer The Keystone. Justin is widely admired for his wide tastes that run the gamut from vitntage to modern, sport to dress, and everything in between. Both of these guys have a keen eye, great taste, and extensive about watches. In today's episode, we discuss the most recent auctions and the market more broadly, what dealers and auctions can do better, and git into the nitty-gritty with vintage Patek, Rolex, and Cartier. We also have a little fun – I get both of the guys to tell me what watch they'd love to snag from the other's collection. Thanks as always for listening, and make sure to hit the show notes to follow along with some of the watches we discuss.
Synopsis¶
In this episode of Hodinkee Radio, host Tony Traina sits down with two legendary watch dealers and collectors, Eric Ku and Justin Gruenberg, who are co-founders of the online auction platform Loupe This. Eric Ku, known for founding vintage dealership Ten Past Ten in 2005, brings expertise in Rolex, Cartier, and vintage watches. Justin Gruenberg, a second-generation dealer from Los Angeles who founded The Keystone, is admired for his diverse collecting tastes spanning vintage to modern pieces.
The conversation covers the recent Geneva auction season and provides a temperature check on the current secondary market. Both dealers observe that while super-conditioned pieces continue to command appropriate prices, there's less speculation than two years ago. They discuss Christie's recent website hack and the controversial handling of the Only Watch charity auction, which faced scrutiny over financial improprieties. The duo analyzes Sotheby's new fee structure, which shifted to a 20% buyer's premium and mandatory 10% seller's premium, debating whether this truly changes the market dynamics or just the perception.
A significant portion of the discussion focuses on what the watch industry can learn from more established collecting categories like art. Justin emphasizes the need for greater academic rigor and transparency in watch collecting, including better condition reporting and disclosure of production numbers. Eric highlights how brands like Audemars Piguet are leading the way with initiatives like AP Chronicles, which publicly shares historical production data. They also address concerns about the proliferation of high-quality fake stone dials in the market and the sustainability of vintage Rolex prices after a decade of unprecedented growth. The conversation concludes with personal insights into their shared passion for vintage Cartier London pieces and cultural recommendations, including the Acquired podcast's deep dives into luxury conglomerates like LVMH.
Links¶
Transcript¶
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| Tony Traina | Welcome back to another episode of Hodinky Radio. Today on the podcast, I'm thrilled to have on two legendary watch collectors and dealers, Eric Ku and Justin Gruenberg. Of course, Eric is no stranger to Hodinky having appeared on the site, talking watches, and on this podcast. He got his start as a vintage dealer soon founding 10 Past 10, way back in 2005. Most recently he co-founded the online auction site Loop This in 2021. He's since become known for his expertise in Rolex, Cartier, and pretty much all things vintage. Of course, Eric's loopthist co-founder is today's other guest, Justin Grunberg. Justin is a second-generation watch and jewelry dealer from LA, and since joining the family business, has also founded the vintage dealership The Keystone. Justin is widely admired for his wide tastes that run the gamut from vintage to modern, sport to dress, and pretty much everything in between. In today's episode, we talk about the most recent auctions, the market more broadly, what dealers and auctions can do better, but we also have a little fun. I get both of these guys to tell me what watch they'd love to snag from each other's collection. So without further ado, let's get to my conversation with Eric Koo and Justin Gruenberg. Alright, so another episode of Hodinky Radio. Thank you to Eric Coo and Justin Gruenberg, two real legends here, legendary dealers here in the United States. Known currently, I would say perhaps most as co-founders of Loop This, but we're gonna get into their backgrounds a little bit more and then we're gonna have a lot of auction market discussion and just general fun watch discussion. Eric Ku, of course, is no stranger to Hodinky Radio. I was looking back at the archives, you first appeared, I want to say in 2018 after talking watches that you've done with us. Eric, how you doing? Doing well. |
| Eric Ku | What about yourself, Tony? I'm doing well |
| Tony Traina | . Thank you so much for joining us. Uh excited to have you on once again. And then to those who know, Justin Gruenberg is kind of a legend in the Los Angeles watch scene. You know Gruenberg watches, you know the Keystone as I kind of introduced you, but you've never appeared on Hodinky, which is a real shame. So I'm really excited to bring you on Hodinky Radio for the first time. Justin, how you doing |
| Eric Ku | ? Oh good. Uh thanks for having me on, |
| Justin Gruenberg | Turney. Yeah, of course. So Justin, I |
| Tony Traina | I I want to start with you because you are kind of new to the Hodinky world. And if you could just give us a little bit of a a background on yourself on yourself. So I introduced you as Gruenberg Watches and the Keystone, but just tell us a little bit more about you and your business as a dealer |
| Justin Gruenberg | . Yeah. Um, so I I I mean I grew up around watches. Um, my dad had a jewelry store and uh watch store in Beverly Hills since probably the late 60s. So as long as I can remember, I've been around watches and jewelry. Um, and then in 2008, after you know, coming back from school in New York, uh, I started um trading in mostly vintage watches at the time. And then a few years after that, we uh Max Abbott and I um created uh the Keystone, which we have been running ever since. |
| Tony Traina | I want to just ask a little bit more about the Keystone because if you're in watches, surely someone has dropped a beautiful photo of something that Keystone is is selling in a in a group chat or a WhatsApp or something, uh, well known around the world. But can you just talk about sort of the impetus for starting the keystone off of the back of of what you and your family had had built prior to that |
| Justin Gruenberg | ? Sure. You know, I've always kind of like uh had a lot of dealer um relationships um and kind of been focused on the wholesale market. Um and I had a you know, an idea of, you know, this is, I don't want to say like early watch website, because there are a lot of other, you know, Cree owned watch websites at that time. But there weren't a million other uh watch websites that focused on like super high end. So we kind of decided to create the Keystone and kind of have more collector oriented watches via like a website. And that wasn't it sounds crazy, but you know, 2010, 2012, it wasn't, you know, the most common thing. |
| Tony Traina | Yeah, it makes sense. So Eric, you know, I was trying to think of a good way to introduce you, obviously, no stranger to the hodinky world. And I saw recently somewhere you recommended this episode of a podcast called the Acquired Podcast. Uh it it kind of analyzes businesses, oftentimes like technology businesses, but not so much anymore. But you recogn recommended a an episode about LVMH, which was honestly one of the best sort of pieces of content I consumed in 2023 as well. And I'm wondering what you sort of thought of that episode or high-level takeaways you had about LVMH, the company or the conglomerate, and sort of how it applies to watches |
| Eric Ku | ? Yeah, I mean, um, for those of you that are not familiar with the podcast, they dive really, really deep into the companies that they cover. Um it's not uncommon for episodes to be four hours long or four hours long ex uh spanning into like episodes one, two, and three about a particular company. So, you know, the the podcast itself is a masterpiece. Um, you know, the really interesting one that ties into our world, one of them is obviously LVMH. And it did a really deep dive into the beginnings of LVMH, uh, Bernard Arnaud, different points of progress that he made to be where he is today, the uh head of this luxury conglomerate to the likes that nobody's ever seen before. You know, and um it's pretty interesting getting in a little bit into like the psyche of how LVMH operates. Um a few interesting takeaways or one of the most interesting ones I thought was that owning multiple brands, you can always have something on or off at the same time. So its seem like pretty interesting. Like running one brand, for example, if Louis Vuitton was a standalone brand with standalone ownership, you know, they um they have to always be like constantly, you know, reinventing themselves, doing whatever. But as the head of a luxury group, you can, you know, assign uh different types of uh people to head different brands, uh, target different market segments and head in different like creative directions and things like that. And I think that's a really interesting way of running these type of luxury brands. And it's it's never really been done this way before, you know. Tying into watches in particular, I think of things like you know, Bulgary certainly is certainly is under their umbrella. Um they make watches at multiple price points from a few thousand dollars up until hundreds of thousands of dollars or millions of dollars, but then being part of a group allows them to do things like new projects, relaunching Gerald Gento, relaunching Daniel Roth, that clearly are super high-end brands that won't see, you know, aspirational models in the couple thousand dollar range |
| Tony Traina | . Yeah, it makes sense. And I view you both as sort of entrepreneurs in the watch space as well, in addition to dealers. You guys are much more than that with the companies you all have started. So I've got some sort of more business oriented questions related to the watch industry towards the end of it. So stay tuned for that. Guys, I kind of wanted you all to come on right after the Geneva auction season, just to get sort of a general temperature check on the market. It by the time this podcast runs, it'll be two weeks removed from the auction. So we're going to get into the nitty-gritty of lots too much, but I wanted to start by sort of maybe we'll start with with Justin here and sort of as much as you paid attention to what was going on in Geneva, uh, and then what will be coming up in Hong Kong and New York, sort of a general temperature check on how the the secondary market and then the auction market is is performing right now |
| Justin Gruenberg | . Sure, yeah. I mean it's kind of funny because Eric and I used to kind of being we used to be seasonal kind of auction attendees and we're kind of giving a report from home. And you know, I I find this to be like a a really interesting thing because you don't have like the you're not involved in kind of theatrical elements of like auctions to kind of feel the intensity in the room where um my overall feeling is that like for super conditioned stuff as it's been for quite a while, uh, you know, it's bringing the price that it should bring. There there there is like a little bit of like um, I don't want to say like the a selective or like a picky kind of audience. But the the most of the watches that should commend the prices are commending the prices. Occasionally like you you see like the 1463 at Annaquorum, which was an incredible watch that I thought should have brought more money. But in general, like I think that prices are pretty reflective of the market, uh, which I find to be still strong. I mean, it's has less speculative kind of aspects that it had you know two years ago. But I find that things in general are like, you know, doing well |
| Eric Ku | . Eric, yeah, maybe you can pick it up there |
| Tony Traina | because I think I saw you had even posted about this 1463, a yellow gold fourteen sixty three, it was Eberhard signed, I think, that sol sold at Antiquorum for around two hundred and thirty thousand Swiss francs. And I think you said it was even, you know, one of the best cases you'd ever seen on that particular reference. |
| Eric Ku | It certainly was the price uh was a bit disappointing, to be honest. |
| Tony Traina | Really, but I think that kind of reflec |
| Eric Ku | ts a general fatigue on certain vintage pieces |
| Tony Traina | . Um you'll see a macro |
| Eric Ku | trend, I feel like, is that the way that the auctions are put together, there's less of an emphasis on vintage Rolex and vintage Patek and more a broad um spectrum of selection of watches with a lot more modern and contemporary um versus you know three four seasons ago you know you could count a half dozen uh 2499s a half dozen 1518s seven figure paddock philips things like this and the season this time around was much more balanced. Um, you know, one of the things that I don't know what'll shake out from now and when the podcast gets released is certainly this mystery and intrigue surrounding what happened at Christie's and this uh website hack. You know, people will be dissecting this for a long time to come. Did they make the right choice to continue with the sales? Do we only watch without an online bidding component? People already expressed their um opinions about this online on Instagram and social media. You know, a lot of people certainly weren't happy about the way things shook out. Particularly weird thing is that they allowed online bidding for the watch option, but it was done via like a proprietary link. Website's still down. You could see it on YouTube and no published results or anything because the website's still down. So this is all really weird stuff, unprecedented. Nobody knows if it's a data breach, if you know our bidding histories are out there, passwords, who knows what. But certainly this is a a first for something like that. You know? |
| Tony Traina | It's totally wild. And also just like coming off of uh total sort of sort of a lack of communication around the passion for time sale last November, I suppose. And then they had some rough results last November in Hong Kong as well. I've seen some articles in the Wall Street Journal and the Times about how the art market because of the cr all the Christie's auction sales are c or art sales are coming up soon and how it's the last thing they really need when the art market is kind of stumbling along. And I think it's kind of no different in the art world. But do you think they've handled it well so far or is it still still kind of TBD from your perspective? |
| Eric Ku | I don't want to be overly critical, but from my uh observational point of view, I think it could have been handled better. |
| Tony Traina | Yeah. Um there's a real la |
| Eric Ku | ck of uh you know, nowadays people really crave like transparency transparency or honesty about things. And I just feel like it's been really opaque how they've handled this. And um, you know, I don't know when people dissect this later on, what's gonna shake out, but you know, I would have expected a little better communication. Um, you know, like I said, with OnlyWatch, you know, there was one or two watchmakers already that kind of expressed their um unhappiness about the way things transpired. And I totally understand from a collector's standpoint. Um I have a lot of friends that wanted to bid on things online. They were unable to. Uh bid registrations were not fulfilled. And these are all like highly problematic for an auction house, you know. Um there certainly were a lot of smaller brands that really didn't get a fair shake in the only watch, in my opinion. There were a few things that hammer kind of in that low $50,000 to $100,000 range. Should have probably done more. Um, I was a bit surprised at the result from that bulgare octofenissimo. Um, I went to this release event for that watch when they unveiled it last year. And the thing is really a really impressive object. And it's one of the coolest things that I've seen in a long time. And, you know, it did a quite quite a good result, 250,000. But at the same time, I would have expected that to do more, you know. |
| Tony Traina | It seemed like in the under the right circumstances, if the only watch stuff had not happened, hadn't been postponed, like could that have pressed seven figures even |
| Eric Ku | ? I mean, I thought it would be 500,000 to a million easily |
| Tony Traina | . Okay. Uh you know, I had a question for you guys about OnlyWatch, and maybe since we're I can just ask it real quickly because it was originally scheduled for November. We've covered a little bit on the website how it was delayed, uh questi,ons about financial improprieties, or just and then there was an audit, uh, some sort of corporate restructuring. And I know you guys have been sort of at least one of you has been supportive of OnlyWatch in the past, but I'm just curious what you guys think the future of a charity auction like like this should be if it should have a future |
| Eric Ku | . I mean, you know that uh saying uh snitches get stitches, right? No, I'm just kidding. Um, but you know, it's unprecedented the scrutiny that everybody faces now from social media. Um, OnlyWatch certainly um is a perfect example of this. Um I've followed this just, you know, by reading everything everybody else has on the internet, you know, Instagram comments, back and forth and things like that. And um, you know, I don't really have an informed opinion about, you know, what happened actually. Um I understand that um some sort of an audit was performed. Um I'm not really an expert on corporate due diligence. So I don't really know, you know, what came out of that, but you know, certainly the event went forward. Um they lost some support from a few of the bigger brands. You know, I don't know. This is just speculation here, but I feel that it's very difficult for something like this to continue going forward. And I don't really know what the future of OnlyWatch is going to be like if they lose the support of um, you know, some of the bigger brands |
| Tony Traina | . Yeah. Justin, anything to add? Whet |
| Eric Ku | her it's due to malfeasance or not. |
| Tony Traina | . Yeah Yeah. Um like |
| Justin Gruenberg | my my uh take on this is that like I'm pretty late to the gossip. Uh typically like it's usually happens in a call, like the error calls me and he's like, hey did, you hear about this sh? And I'm like, wow, that's pretty crazy. Uh regarding the OnlyWatch, uh I mean, I think that, you know, they they were audited, uh as as they say. I have no idea about their financials. Hopefully, you know, um everything is as it should be. Um, but you never know. I always found it a little bit uninteresting, uh, not to say that I'm I'm super happy about like, you know, all of these record prices for charity, but I kind of feel like the actual, you know, like I kind of forget what the the watch is three years later that brought the record price. Uh I was even talking to Eric and I was like, what was that? Was it like a 6300 that brought, you know, 30 something million that year? Or what what was the model? And it kind of it reminds me of like that Fran Liebowitz uh Netflix, where she said something along the lines of like people applaud uh the price, but not the Picasso. Uh where it's like I can't even remember some of these record things, just the price. Um and I for for watches I find that to be like not that interesting. |
| Tony Traina | Yeah, it's the standard art collector quip where you uh you know people know the price of everything and the value of nothing, right? It's it's it's not so dissimilar, I would say. Uh but you know the word audit has come up far too many times for for my taste. So we're gonna we're gonna move on, I think. Uh and I wanted to talk to you guys a little bit more about uh just what what you feel first of all the traditional auction houses are doing well right now. And then what you feel as though they're they're not doing well, or maybe put more, put more positively, what you feel as though the opportunities are for uh for them to better serve the market or collectors, I suppose |
| Justin Gruenberg | . I mean there's no doubt that every season I'm just like shocked by how many great watches uh are showing up, you know, between Christie's, Phillips, you know, Anna Quorum this year, Monaco Legends, there are substantial amount of important watches that continuously are appearing. I think the problems we're facing is just like the level of transparency and the cost. Uh, you know, when you have certain issues that are raised about watches, it seems like sometimes they're they're not addressed in kind of an academic way. And then on the on the cost side, you have you know 27% buyers premium uh mostly or you have a 10% seller's premium with uh Sotheby's now. So I think that these things are a little bit debilitating to conduct business to a certain extent. |
| Tony Traina | Can I ask you about the so kind of some of the big news in the auction world to really get into the inside baseball of it for just a second is Sotheby's kind of changed their fee structure. So now it's what a 20% buyer's premium. But then on the other side, what they did is they kind of changed their seller's premium so that it's 10%. Um which these are kind of just numbers, but I I'm curious from your guys' perspective, if you could kind of explain why this matters and then kind of why actual sort of enthusiasts or collectors that that might be listening to this this podcast should should care about something like this. |
| Eric Ku | In my personal opinion, it doesn't really change anything. It's just the perception of things. Um the reason why I say that is it's like basically the auction houses typically take like a third of the pie for themselves, you know, roughly 30% from one side or the other. And what Sotheby's has stated publicly is that the premium is twenty percent on the buyer side, which psychologically it's like, oh, 20 versus the 26 or 70%, it's a lot lower. But then on the other hand, they are making like a mandatory uh seller's premium of like a 10%, um, you know, a tiered 10% or whatever it is on the back end. And at the end of the day, they're taking the same amount of money. It's just the way that they're allocating it is like different. And if you're looking at it as a buyer, right, ultimately you pay what you pay. Like when I buy things at auction, I calculate the buyer's premium, what I pay. So it just I adjust my bids accordingly that way, you know? And um if anything, it's just the seller side perception of going from, hey, I have a five percent fee, or they've waived my fees, or I've gotten a hammer share on something, to hey, there's this mandatory 10% kind of leaves a bad taste in my mouth, maybe, you know |
| Tony Traina | . For you all, presumably you guys have long-standing relationships with with all these auction houses, Sotheby's included. I I guess I'm making some assumptions here, but has it changed your relationship with with Sotheby's at all, the way in which they're they're changing this? Um, or or have they sort of taken care of existing clients in a way to make sure that they continue to sort of want to do business with them |
| Eric Ku | ? I mean, I I think of the scenario of like the old woman with like a Picasso in her house or something like that, like a a Cartier crash or whatever. Um, they're gonna take it to two or three different auction houses. And then I think to the uninformed person, um, when they say that they're gonna be charged a fee for selling it with them, it's like an instant turn off. So I don't understand the logic behind this decision. Um you know I I don't know but um it's certainly like very intriguing. It's either the most brilliant or the dumbest thing that's ever been done. And I can't tell which one |
| Tony Traina | You guys are both sitting in your offices, it looks like, and something we often do on this show is uh show us something cool on your desk, basically. And you guys both have like a lot of cool random stuff sort of on and around your desk. I'm wondering if we could just play this game real quick for uh for both of you |
| Eric Ku | . Okay. So um I'm not gonna go pick it up because it's kind of fragile, but one thing that I really love is you'll see this uh fish bowl behind me. |
| Tony Traina | Yep. This is a 50s |
| Eric Ku | uh early 60s Rolex display for a waterproof watch. There was an antiquorum sale many years ago called uh Rolex Mania or it wasn't it was Omega Mania and then Rolex Revolution, excuse me. It was a watershed moment in the history of collecting vintage Rolex. Um, I had come to own a lot of these really cool 50s and 60s displays and I put them all in the auction and sold them. And the two most iconic ones, in my opinion, are the fish bowl with the Neptune trident behind me. And then there was another one of like a water bowl uh with like a lily pad around it. And um I was really regretful of selling these things. So a few years ago, I found this one and then um bought it back because I just thought it was something really cool to have. And it's been sitting on my desk, uh, the bureau behind me, like collecting dust for the last 10 years. I don't know, but it's something certainly fun to look at |
| Tony Traina | . Uh, that's great. Didn't disappoint. Justin, what about you |
| Justin Gruenberg | ? Um, I guess it's mostly just books. Uh, you know, because sometimes we'll come across, you know, something that we have to reference in a book. But uh, you know, I we I have this clock right here, which is one of my favorites that I have, which I bought from I think it came from like the Oahu, Hawaii Library or something like that. Um and uh it's it's a Patek clock. Um looks to be stone, but I don't I don't think it is. I think it's a faux stone. Um and I have the I think I have it in tur this color and blue and red and um I kind of love these like solar era clocks. Um some of them are solar and some of them aren't, but |
| Tony Traina | do you know what era it's from? |
| Justin Gruenberg | 70s. Yeah, that's super cool. |
| Tony Traina | Uh okay. Well, thank you for for that, guys. I use it as a transition because I know you guys you both chose watch sort of objects there or watch related ephemera, but you guys are sort of known to collect other things and dabble in other categories as well. And one of the things I'm always interested in is what watches might learn from other more established categories of collecting. One of the common sort of uh themes you hear is that watches are this more nascent collecting category. And if you look at more established areas of collecting, you might be able to sort of tell what the trajectory of watches might be, but there might be certain things you can take or learn from them. And I'm curious sort of uh as as collectors in in some of these other areas uh something that you think they might have that maybe watches could perhaps learn from uh justin maybe maybe you could start |
| Justin Gruenberg | yeah i i mean i have a personality that like once i look at one thing, I kind of try to look at other things in a similar respect, whether it's like art or design or coffee or whatever it might be, uh, I kind of tend to geek out on all the details of something. Um so in terms of learning, I think that you know, although like I feel like there was, you know, has some history of kind of academia in watches, I think that like we have a lot to um a lot uh to go um in terms of like having like an academic background to our to our work. Um and I think that that's it affects like condition reporting, it affects like uh the amount of information in terms of like production numbers, in terms of you know, just because I always feel that like the more information that clients have and and collectors have is better for the market. I think we, you know, I my my father's era, it's like, you know, basically like the customer knows nothing and you know we sh we should basically you know you know tell them what it is. I think it's actually the opposite now. And I think like having a lot of information and a lot of good information out there is the most important thing for the market and for pricing. Um, so I think that we have a lot long ways to go in terms of like an academic foundation for our work, um, which you see in art, you can get a third party so you can get a third party to give condition reports that are not um you know have no financial kind of logic for them to be giving you know poor uh information. Where here, I feel like there's in in our industry, sometimes certain facts are omitted um that should be, you know, included clearly. And I think that, you know, these types of things they're important for us to kind of move forward. |
| Eric Ku | I mean, I I I think like all collect collectible categories go through this trajectory of growth. And, you know, um you had said that um you know uh tony that watch collecting is kind of uh you know like a young hobby or you know vertical whatever you want to call it but you know i'm gonna disagree a little bit with that i'd say that it's something that people have been doing for It's just evolved significantly. And the reason why I say that is I feel like, for example, um, pocket watches have been collected for a very long time. |
| Tony Traina | Yeah. You look at even Henry G |
| Eric Ku | raves, the super complication and whatever. At that time, it was a scholarly pursuit of making something like testing the extremities of like human ingenuity, of like making these complications of uh new systems of like um you know escape systems for movements, all this type of stuff. And it was literally like old guys in smoking jackets having philosophical discussions about like Abraham Louis Bourguet, things like that, you know? What happened now? You know, people are talking about color dials. And that's like the new hot thing. And it it's gone through like many phases. I mean, I think of even art, you know, thousands of years ago, you know, art was really a scholarly pursuit. And then, you know, the Renaissance period, there was this real influx of like new knowledge and all these things that happened. It was uh a real scholarly thing versus now, you know, contemporary art, a lot of it is, you know, people don't understand. And it's more about the value like you had said of something versus uh the art itself or something like that, you know |
| Tony Traina | ? It sounds like you're asking, where are the scholars today |
| Eric Ku | ? I think it's just the evolution of um of collecting, you know |
| Tony Traina | ? Um people cer |
| Eric Ku | tainly when Bosquiot hit the scene in the early mid 80s, you know, people were not understanding that art. And now whatever, 40 years later, you have people writing scholarly dissertations about, you know, a Bosquiat scribble or like a Warhol chalk drawing on a subway wall that probably the artist never intended, but you know, there's an analysis on everything, you know? There might be an analysis later on about during this era of the early 20s and during COVID, why people just suddenly like colored dials on watches. I mean, you know? |
| Tony Traina | Well, I was going to ask you to make the parallel on watches for me. You kind of got there a little bit, but uh is it just like as it there's one theory in which we're kind of just moving forward through the generations, like people used to collect these pocket watches, and then we we moved on to sort of the masterpieces from 30s and 40s era wristwatches from paddock and whatever else, and continue to move forward. And now we're like we're in the 70s, I guess, right now still. Um, but I I don't know. I don't, is that kind of just like one of the general themes or no |
| Eric Ku | ? I mean, there's also this thing of like getting back into the LVMH podcast, okay. There's a difference between um like a luxury brand and like an aspirational brand. And I feel like in the old days, like it was like 10 people collecting these pocket watches in the world. Okay. And then now there are millions of people collecting watches. Um it's because of the information that's afforded to us, the r relative um you know varied price points of watches. You know, people collect five dollar watches, they collect five million dollar watches and it's um gotten to this uh you know this point with just consumerism in general that you know it's become more uh I hate this word democratized, but it's like this thing that like everybody has a piece of at at a different uh at a different time, you know |
| Tony Traina | ? Yeah. Justin, you were talking about um more information, number one disclosure, but also just like having more information, I think. Um, maybe this is from manufacturers about production, and maybe it's also just collectors and dealers and and writers and stuff documenting things better. But I'm curious, uh, maybe this is a self-indulgent question as like I'm asking you to pitch me a potential article even, but like areas of of collecting that sort of feel as though they're like underdocumented now or there's just not enough information for people to seriously kind of uh do it as a as a more serious endeav |
| Justin Gruenberg | or yeah I mean I think if you just take the the high categories of watches and you kind of make the parallel to art uh like like Eric was saying you, take a Bosquiat or you take a, you know, a 60s Warhol, uh, you can find books that are written about a Jackie Kennedy Warhol, um, which is like, you know, for a Jackie is the price of a 1518, uh, a nice 1518. And there's not a whole lot of literature being written about 1518s that's public. Uh, you can go and buy, you know, probably three books uh that are, you know, have chapters about a Jackie and what potentially Warhol uh, you know, how his whole practice um, you know, with the foundation of that in terms of you know the artwork. So I find that like there's a lot of literature that needs to be um to you know to be made uh I think to kind of justify um, you know, this category because obviously we have like consumption of watches is a little bit different than art, but I think that, you know, a lot of people are interested in uh, you know, the background of these watches and you know what it what an original dial what are the specs of an original dial and these these that information isn't all too public |
| Eric Ku | one thing that I'd like to point out that I thought was a really great thing is I don't know if any of you guys have looked at this website um that AP put out called like AP Chronicles. |
| Tony Traina | Yeah. And it's really an |
| Eric Ku | unprecedented thing for a manufacturer to do. And I think a lot of brands um should really make a case study of what like AP did with that. If you're not familiar, AP Chronicles is this kind of historical website that they set up. Um, you know, right now they're kind of documenting the Royal Oaks because that's like the hot thing. But it gives all of the reference numbers, production figures, and things like that that traditionally are information that the brands hold very close to their chest. But I don't see why they should be doing that, you know. You always see in an auction catalog um possibly unique, um, one of five known to the market, you know, these are not like hard facts, you know? And I don't think there's anything wrong with paddock Philippe going out there and saying, you know what? We produced 357 2499s total. You know, these uh numbers and data points are what collectors crave, you know? And without this stuff, the speculation out there sometimes like uh grossly overestimating production, grossly underestimating production, like these things are what is needed by collectors to give them reassurance about the marketplace |
| Tony Traina | . I have a question about that because one of the things you often hear as a counter to that is vintage Rolex, especially if Rolex, maybe it's different because the production numbers are so much higher. But the sort of counter is if Rolex ever actually came out and said, we made this many Paul Newman Daytonas, for example, it would completely like blow up the market for a lot of these watches because uh so many would be called into question. Um do you do you take that sort of with any seriousness, Eric |
| Eric Ku | ? I mean, so we're using the example of Rolex, and I'll tell you of any brand, you know, Rolex is in in my eyes, the finest produced, like industrially made product there is, you know? And they're made on an industrial scale, not like Paddock Philippe. So for those people thinking that there's only a couple hundred Paul Newman dials out |
| Tony Traina | there, tens of thousands, may |
| Eric Ku | be more, who knows? You know? But like um I don't know. I mean I think this data, it's stuff that people want to know about, you know? And it's better off dispelling the um the misnomers out there now than letting these uh legends and whatnot like get out of control, you know. I can't think of a specific example right now, but a perfect thing would be let's say there was a particular watch or a particular dial type that sh uh comes up on the market and they're like the only um example possibly unique right what happens? Somhinget possibly unique goes to auction and then uh sells for five million dollars. Then you know what? That's a lot of impetus for people to be digging around and finding another example. And more often than not, like this happens, you know. So I think it should be information that's shared with collectors by the manufacturers as much as possible |
| Tony Traina | . I have one potential example for you, Eric. Uh was this sort of champagne albino gold Rolex that was at Phillips. I think it passed, right? And I know you have some familiarity with the steel albinos. So I'm wondering if is that a potential example or maybe even just like what sort of happened with that watch and why it passed |
| Eric Ku | . The watch is beautiful. Um it looks uh correct to me in terms of like the forensic things that I'm like looking at |
| Tony Traina | . Yeah. Um, but I think |
| Eric Ku | right now what the market craves is steadfast like facts and forensic kind of like historical evidence and something that is undocumented like that that shows up from nowhere um so far like after production. It's just like it takes a lot of time to digest and accept. I think it's the right watch for the wrong market timing, to be honest. I mean, I this watch came up uh many times in conversations between Justin and myself and other dealers and collectors. And you know, a watch like this come into market, you know, a few years ago, or let's say debuting at the uh the Daytona sale at Christie's, you know, it could have done seven figures easily. But, you know, right now the uncertainty that people have about that watch, um, kind of outweigh the um the beauty of it, I guess. I mean, it's funny that when that watch passed, I don't know if you guys were watching, but uh Aurel on the Rostrum had made some sort of comment that's like, |
| Tony Traina | yeah, maybe it's too exotic for everyb |
| Eric Ku | ody, or maybe it's too special or something like that, you know, which is which is really appropriate, I think. |
| Tony Traina | So maybe we'll see it again, huh? We |
| Eric Ku | will probably see it again. There's |
| Justin Gruenberg | there's not as much momentum as there once were for sport role X also. |
| Tony Traina | Well, this is a question I wanted to ask you guys is about just sports rolex. I know you guys both kind of got to start your start in this space, but sort of yeah, just double click on that thought for a second, Justin. |
| Justin Gruenberg | I mean, when I first started to to buy a, you know, like a 1680 or a 5513 in like min condition was like a holy grail for me. Um there would be there was nothing that like brought a bigger smile on my face than finding like a super orange loom uh 5513. And now it's like my focus on Rolex is non-sports. Like my interest is in bubble backs, you know, Ovatones, early chronos that are you know small and undesirable. Like these are kind of what I'm what I'm super passionate about now. So it's kind of you know, like I've talked about it before that like the collecting kind of goes in waves where you're like And then I kind of move on from them and then come back. So not to say I'm done with sports forever, but I think my passion's a little bit changed over the last couple of years. |
| Tony Traina | Well, and you're just, it sounds like you're kind of reflective of the broader market. I mean, I mentioned Eric when you were last on the podcast in 2018. That was the first 20 minutes of the discussion is when is vintage Rolex gonna slow down? Uh it seemed like there was no end in sight, and uh uh you know it it slowed down s shortly thereafter, I suppose |
| Eric Ku | . Yeah. I mean there's just a bit of fatigue. If you look, vintage Rolex had this unprecedented growth curve for the last 10 years at least, you know. And um, you know, it's good to take a breather every once in a while. But the fact is, is a no-date submariner is always going to be an iconic watch. And, you know, people will come back to this stuff at some point, but it just um, you know, it went too high too quickly, you know, multiplied with during COVID, you know, all this type of stuff. It was it was a confluence of like the perfect storm where prices just got out of hand and they just weren't sustainable at those levels, you know |
| Justin Gruenberg | ? If you take like the like an RCO from like 2014, it would be an over million dollar watch, right, Eric. And then like this Cloison A Rolex at Phillips would probably be half of what it brought uh in that same period that there's kind of been a reversal of kind of pricing in terms of like these 40s, 50s watches, important ones being worth the price of the most important uh Newman's or um but and then you and then you have certain things like uh a jps which is still has proven to be over a million dollar watch multiple times at this point so certain certain watches have kind of stood the test of times and then others haven't. And Orange Hand, it was $25,000, a nice one when I started in 2008. It's practically the same price as it is now. |
| Eric Ku | I mean I'd argue that they've actually gone down a little bit in pri thece in some of these kind of like basic sport watches, you |
| Justin Gruenberg | know. Um, but I |
| Eric Ku | think like there's a few different things. You bring up the um like the RCO uh oyster soda, whatever you guys want to call this. And I feel like what's really shaking the market on that is basically half of them, if not more, are fake. Um, you know, taking a 6'2, 6'4 Daytona dial and cleverly printing the word oyster underneath Cosmograph in the right font can make a watch go from $200,000 to a million dollars. And the, you know, the confidence in the marketplace for watches like that that are very rare, but you know, fairly easily faked to a confidence level of let's say 85% or something. You know, it's just shaking the confidence in those type of watches, you know? So that's one thing with a really high end. Uh Tony, you look like you're about to jump in here |
| Tony Traina | . I had a question because you posted it's kind of it's on the same topic, but a little bit different. Towards the end of last year, towards the end of 2023, you posted about uh these like very scary good fake stone dials. And I I want to ask about sort of that area of the market as well. And uh just like what even the impetus was for for posting something like that. Cause it's kind of outside the norm for for you or any dealer to post something that's like just a a PSA watch out type of thing |
| Eric Ku | . I posted that because at that time um dealers such as Justin and myself and then other colleagues had been seeing a proliferation of um stone dials and um like really really high quality, but something slightly wrong with them, you know, or the fonts are slightly off, or something like that. And the truth is is, these things were coming onto the marketplace and um being passed off as original. And I would say probably they would fool 90 to 95 percent of collectors and dealers. So the reason why I posted that was I saw them coming to market in sufficient quantities to know that, you know, this I mean it's become like, I don't know, like a criminal enterprise, if you will, like people making these tr,ying to pass them off as real onto the marketplace. And, you know, that also shakes the confidence in the market for stone dials, for example |
| Tony Traina | . My question is, where in the market is this happening? Where is the stone dial going from like this was a fake watch into like someone is essentially essentially like laundering it into representing it as a a real or authentic Rolex stone dial? Does that make sense |
| Eric Ku | ? Well, I mean, 10, 15 years, or I don't want to say 10, 15 years ago, a coral dial day date and yellow gold was like a you know $20,000 watch, let's say. It's worth double what a normal one was at the time. Now, multiple times, coral dial day dates are selling hundred to two hundred thousand dollars. You know, the motive is certainly just the price there. You know, you can take a $10,000 day date and with some trickery on the dial, um, 10x your money, 20x your money. And um, you know, this goes hand in hand with like restoration, right? It's like at what point does restoration become like kind of this gray area of criminality, if you will. You know, it's like people have found a way to make these stone dials look very convincing and, you know, started putting them on the market because, you know, nobody's like looking, you know |
| Tony Traina | . No nobody's looking close |
| Eric Ku | enough, I should say |
| Tony Traina | . So you guys found a loop this together and I'm curious sort of what the impetus you all saw and what the opportunity was you all saw in the market to to do something different as far as starting an online auction house that had a flat seller's fee, uh, 10% buyer's premium and sort of the opportunity that you all took on there |
| Justin Gruenberg | . Loop this uh was a conversation between Eric uh several years before it came to fruition, I would say. Um based on just we us seeing a growing appetite in terms of watches to be, you know, bought in auction all year round, every day of the year, uh, rather than kind of a seasonal model. Uh and we kind of saw that uh based on a model that our we can cut the commission significantly to operate a 10% profit a 10% premium and a five hundred dollar listing fee for the consigner. We have like a streamlined operation that allows for that, I would say, uh, where obviously if you're sending paper catalogs to, you know two thousand households around the around the world, uh you can't operate at that business model potentially. We, you know, obviously all of ours are done on all of our watches are sold online. So we have a little bit more leeway to operate at that level. Yeah |
| Tony Traina | , you know, I was flipping through an old auction catalog from 1995 or 60 the other day. A lot of things stood out, obviously the prices and how low they were, but one of the things that really stood out was the 10% buyers premium. So uh taking it back to as it once was, I suppose. I'm curious what you guys, now that you've been uh in business for a few years, learnings you had or mistakes you kind of made that you learned from along the way, just as as either watch people or just as sort of business people or entrepreneurs |
| Eric Ku | . I mean, one thing that I'd say is that the reason why it took so long for us to launch the site from when we were talking about it initially was like there's so many different ways to slice the uh the the pie here, you know, before we launched the uh the website, and then until we launched and after, you see, there's like a lot of other kind of auction platform y type websites, um, you know, doing uh trying to do what we do, doing what we do, you know, to varying degrees of success. And I think like the one thing that's really important and that we're quite proud of is that the formula that we uh decided on is what works for us. And it's proven that it's worked for the three and a half years that we've been up because a lot of these other ones, they want to build a marketplace where buyers post their own things, sellers bid on them, and they kind of like take a commission in between. You know, um, those types of platforms, like using the words uh escrow. They like using the words um, you know, third party verification, like all these types of things. But really, in our eyes, it's like passing the responsibility on to like another party, you know, and then what we have come up with is like this hybrid model of it's like a traditional auction house in that, you know what? You're buying the goods from us, you're not buying it from the consigner, and we are fulfilling your order. Like you know who Justin and Eric are. Like you're not gonna worry about getting an empty box. You're not gonna worry about getting like a fake watch because we're the ones like fulfilling like the orders directly versus like doing a third-party authentication, holding payment for escrow, all these type of things. And you know, to this day, that like all the other similar types of websites in our sphere are basically just trying to um use that marketplace model that I don't necessarily think is is right is the right model for us, you know. And so like that explains like the long gestation of our project, but I'm really proud of the results that came out of it |
| Tony Traina | . Another thing I wanted to ask you guys, Eric, you've started a few businesses in the space now. LA Watchworks, we just talked about loop this, your dealership 10 past 10. Justin, same thing, family business, and then the Keystone and now loop this. Uh to me, we've been talking about the growth of the watch industry and how the trajectory sort of looks to be positive over the long term if you if you zoom out. I'm curious from your guys' perspective as potential problems or opportunities for new businesses to be started in the watch space, whatever they might be. Surely it's something you guys have have thought of at some level. |
| Justin Gruenberg | Yeah, I mean, uh not in necessarily a business that I'm like involved in, but I do like seeing a lot of these younger dealers. You know, back in the day you used to say that our business has like a huge barrier of entry. And I think there is certain financial barriers of entry, but you see a lot of young dealers that are coming into our space and like really having, I would say, like very personal elements of the watches that they sell there you have like uh you know somebody in Mr. A on Instagram or Carlos Diary, Paluco. Like they're kind of have a very um you know specific um development of how they want to you know show the clients uh and collectors you know what they want to sell. It's not like a you know like this old era of dealer uh which you know has like basically anything you come across. Um I really like looking at these these Instagrams and also websites that have very focused um you know missions. Um not necessarily a um a huge scalable model, but one that I find to be like an important model as a dealer |
| Eric Ku | . For me, the most important thing is the the most concerning thing or threat or whatever you want to call it is the lack of watchmakers these days. |
| Tony Traina | Yeah. Um you know, |
| Eric Ku | I am a co-owner of LA Watchworks and we're always trying to hire qualified watchmakers to join our staff and it really is quite difficult. Um I think in the United States the three main uh watchmaking schools graduate I want to say like three or four dozen um students a year to in total. So really, you know, like most of them go work for Padakhilipa, Rolex, some other brands and whatnot, but really long term third party serviceability of watches is going to be an issue moving forward. And I don't know, like it doesn't seem like young people these days are interested in trade jobs, you know, like, but watchmaking is um is a really important and central part of you know what we're talking about today, um, what all of our businesses involve. And I just think that, you know, through the involvement of organizations like HSNY and other things. Like we really, it's very important to spread the message about watchmaking and that career as like a possible, you know, a possible career path for people. Because when we don't have watchmakers anymore, then we're really gonna have a lot of problems |
| Tony Traina | . I've got a couple of fun questions left for you guys and then and then I'll let you get out of here. But in addition to sort of dealing and loop this and all of that type of stuff, you're you're passionate collectors of of all kinds of different watches. And I'm curious, I want both of you to sort of hopefully answer this question. One watch that you would love to have, Eric for you, one watch you'd have to love to have from Justin's collection that maybe you've even tried to buy and he just won't let you sell. And then Justin, obviously the same question for you, vice versa. A watch that you'd love to be able to snag from from Eric's collection if only he'd let you. Um it looks like Eric's a little bit readier to talk, so maybe I'll ask him first |
| Eric Ku | . All the secrets are coming out, I guess here |
| Tony Traina | . You know, both J |
| Eric Ku | ustin and I love uh vintage Cartier. Um, you know, they comp uh compose like a large portion of our collections. And uh one of the watches that I really love of Justin's is this um this really funky like Cartier London watch that I think is a decagonal 10-sided case with a very weird, like totally swinging 60s um dial motif of like a dark gray and a white swirl with numbers like I think one through twenty-four on the dial. That watch is uh a really unique watch that I'd never seen before and just is fantastic and I would love to own it. But um you know we can't have everything so |
| Justin Gruenberg | yeah I would say that um probably in this in the same realm of Cartier Eric has a um a tink centre like a medium size white gold London that for me is the perfect watch. If I you, know, somehow lost everything else, I'd hope that that watch would somehow appear at the same time and be I'd be equally as happy. Um because I always go back to those simple normales or tang centres. So I would say that one day, probably after like an exhausting three-day uh without sleep, I might be able to convince Eric to sell it to me |
| Tony Traina | . Cartier London for for both of you, which is which is kind of fascinating. Sort of a an enduring the enduring appeal of Cartier London, I suppose. Can you just kind of maybe one of you just talk a little bit about like what it is about about that specific era of of Cartier and that specific workshop? |
| Eric Ku | I mean, there's two things. A is the designs. Like you know, obviously Cardi London uh came up with like the crash. That's a perfect example of design. And B is like the craftsmanship or um process of which these watches were made. You know, the English historically aren't really known for efficiencies in manufacturing. And it's can be seen on these watches because each watch was made from, you know, made by hand. It wasn't like they had an industrial line where they were stamping cases and finishing them in a normal method. It's like if somebody ordered a crash, they would take like a mold and like and they would make a crash, make a deployment buckle and do all this. So that's why you could have two tank normals next to each other, both made in London, you know, um, on different days, and they would be slightly different. If you took the uh deploying clasp apart the two blades they high there's a high chance that they wouldn't be interchangeable with each with each other because they were just like made by hand you know and it's like on Monday like John was smoking a cigar at his bench making it. He hammered it a little too much. You know, on Wednesday, like the guy to pick up a phone, he didn't up. So there's all these little things that are laws in the industrial process, but charming when you look at it uh from a collectible point of view, you know? |
| Tony Traina | Does that just totally distinguish it from the stuff that Cartier was making in Paris at the same time |
| Justin Gruenberg | ? Yep. Uh if you compare it like side-by-side watches of say a um simple tank Louis, uh the proportions, the dial design. They have a like I don't think maybe you'll notice unless you have them side by side, but they're they're the Louis from London. Th'eres something really like kind of special about it and timeless. I have a lot of, you know, 20s, 30s Cartiers and, you know, a handful of them feel like I'm wearing a watch from like a shipwreck or something because it feels like it's from a different time period. And you know it's it doesn't necessarily hold up uh in the same like modern way that a London watch does. You can take a watch from the 60s or 70s and it might as well be made now in terms of the sophistication of the design, the proportions. It kind of balances what's like historical and old and what's modern for me |
| Tony Traina | . One of the most fascinating watches to me is this supposed Rolex that that Frank Mueller um uh modified into being a QP. And it popped up probably about 10 years ago. And we've seen it on Jay-Z's wrists since then. Uh in the past couple of years, I've seen old, old auction catalogs from the early 90s appear in which the the watch that appear in those auction catalogs do not look like the watch on Jay-Z's wrist. And you've left comments that seem to indicate that you may or may not know that there's more to the story about this watch. And I'm curious, uh, I've always wanted to ask you this question, and I'm curious if there's anything more there |
| Eric Ku | . Um, if I got shot if I get shot after talking about this, just please uh run with the segment |
| Tony Traina | . Please, please. Yeah, you' |
| Eric Ku | ll notice in the original auction catalog that it was sold, it has like a bronze dial |
| Tony Traina | . Yeah. And then the one that had been floating |
| Eric Ku | around on Instagram, you see, has this kind of like kind of grenade, you know, like eggshelly looking dial. It's not the same watch. Um, the one that Frank Mueller made, um, it exists. Um I had followed where it was, like it was in laying dormant in a collection for a very long time, I'll say, and I believe it's still there. Um, and you know, the funny thing is is that we have mutual friends and the one that is floating around that was on Jay-Z wrist at some point that he may or may not own,. Um if you ask Frank Mueller himself, he will say, I did not make this watch. So I think that pretty much answers that question. |
| Tony Traina | That is kind of wraps it all up because |
| Justin Gruenberg | the reason why Eric is not able to go to Switzerland anymore because he |
| Tony Traina | Guys, I wanted to ask you one more thing if you've got the time for it, because while you're known in the watch world uh as excellent dealers and entrepreneurs and all these things, uh you're just men of the culture as well. And I want to ask you guys for a cultural recommendation that may or may not have anything to do with watches. Uh maybe it's content you consumed, uh uh just anything sort of outside of the world of watches that you found interesting lately. Uh Justin, maybe I could start with you |
| Justin Gruenberg | . I mean I'm always uh like looking at design and art. Um, when, you know, practically uh I look at those auctions as much as I do watch auctions. And not to say that that's like my uh out of work interest. I just kind of um I'm always interested in learning about how these things like overlap, how uh art dealers and art auctions um sell their work uh in comparison to how we sell our work, um, the processes um that are in place there. So I would I'd say that in general like art is where I'm you know most fascinated. Um uh I would say like 60s, 70s work post-war for the most part |
| Tony Traina | . Give me uh give me one artist that from the 60s or 70s right now that you're particularly into |
| Justin Gruenberg | . Uh I've been reading a lot of books on Warhol. |
| Tony Traina | Okay. And it this is like |
| Justin Gruenberg | one of those things that you grow up seeing warholes in institutions and museums and you're like either uninterested or it's just like kind of in the the back of your head always. And my mom's an artist, but my dad is kind of like, what is all this crap uh on the wall of these museums type of person, you know, that guy that like just like uh sees all contemporary art as being a waste of time potentially, um, or a cheap, cheap way. Uh I the more I read about them, uh the more fascinated and interested I am. Yeah, so I'd say for me, Warhol at the moment is my thing |
| Tony Traina | . Eric, same question to you |
| Eric Ku | . I've mentioned this already today, and I am unaffiliated. I'm not making any money off of this, but really this acquired podcast is fantastic. You know, I was introduced this by a good friend of mine, Michael Weisberg. And, you know, currently they they did 12 hours on Nintendo, the company. So I mean just to show you how in-depth these people are. I'm maybe six hours into the story right now, but it's a really great podcast. And it's something that you can listen to in the car, uh subway ride, pick up whenever, and it's just really great. I mean, you know, I calling it a podcast doesn't even do it justice, but you know, they go through and talk about a lot of uh a lot of different types of companies. Um we use the example of LMH today, but it's not about luxury. It's about like any sort of company. Um and yeah, that's uh that's the thing that I've been obsessed with the most lately |
| Tony Traina | . Uh thanks for making it full circle because that's what I asked you at the top. You know, I recently listened, they published an episode about Hermes recently to kind of bring it back to to watches, roughly speaking. Uh and I I'd recommend that one to to anybody as well. And that |
| Eric Ku | ties to the LVMH episode too. Ye |
| Tony Traina | ah, totally, totally. Like two different ways about two different ways to go about luxury. Uh, but you'll have to listen to to all 10 hours of podcasts or whatever that was to see what we mean. Uh well, listen, thank you guys so much. Thanks to Eric. Thanks to Justin for for coming coming on and playing along. I probably could have done this for another hour, but I know you guys are busy. So uh thank you so much for taking the time and thank you all to listening. Thanks to our editor Vic Otomanelli as always and we'll see you again next week for another episode of Hodinky Radio |
| Eric Ku | . Thanks a lot, Tony. Thanks for having us. |