Q&A – Cartier, TAG Heuer x KITH Formula 1, Auctions, And More¶
Published on Wed, 15 May 2024 16:55:00 +0000
In today's episode, I tapped our style editor Malaika Crawford, client advisor Rich Fordon, and video producer Jonathan McWhorter on for a Q&A. Some of the questions we take on: What other brands should release a Cartier Privé-style collection that taps into its heritage, and which brands should not; Our thoughts on the TAG Heuer x KITH Formula 1; Whether brands and stylists have ruined watch spotting at red carpet events like the Met Gala; Finally, Since Rich was on his way to Geneva for the spring auctions, we talk about how to navigate the sometimes scary world of auctions. Before we get to the Q&A, we also touched on our 21st Century Fantasy Draft from a few weeks ago. We announce the winner, and then Rich and Malaika tell us about all the amazing watches from the past 24 years we should've included.
Synopsis¶
In this episode of Hodinkee Radio, host Tony Traina returns from a week off to conduct a Q&A session with colleagues Jonathan McWarter (video producer), Rich Fordin (client advisor), and Malaika Crawford. The episode begins with congratulations to Jonathan for winning the recent 21st Century Watch Draft by a mere three votes with his selections including an Explorer II, a Lange & Söhne Saxonia Thin, a Vacheron Constantin triple calendar, and a G-Shock.
The conversation explores several topics including which watch brands should create heritage collections similar to Cartier's successful Privé line. Rich advocates for Movado to properly celebrate its pre-war heritage, while the panel discusses JLC's mixed success with the Reverso and debates whether brands like Patek Philippe and Audemars Piguet should avoid over-relying on heritage. They examine the recent Tag Heuer x Kith Formula One collaboration, with Malaika defending the partnership as a smart way to reach younger consumers through streetwear culture, despite criticism about the $1,500 price point.
Rich provides insight into navigating the auction world in 2024, emphasizing the importance of seeing watches in person and consulting experts rather than relying solely on auction house descriptions. The panel discusses why vintage Rolex has become less prominent in current conversations, with prices remaining stubbornly high despite decreased market interest. The episode concludes with a spirited debate about watch spotting at events like the Met Gala, questioning whether brand placements and stylist involvement have diminished the authenticity and personal expression that makes celebrity watch spotting interesting, though the panelists acknowledge this commercialization reflects broader cultural shifts in how celebrity fashion works today.
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Transcript¶
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| Tony Traina | Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of Hodinky Radio. After a week off, we're back to Talk Watches. This week we're doing something a little different. Since we revamped Hodinky Radio a few months ago at this point, we're we haven't done a QA episode, so we're gonna do that. I've got some questions that that I just want to ask my fellow colleagues myself, things I'm curious about, things that have been on my mind. And some of these were also also mailed in or emailed in or DM'd in. So some of these questions are from you, the viewer. So I've probably got a list of ten questions or so here. Uh if if previous experiences are any indication, we'll probably get to half of those at best, three quarters. But we'll keep some in the chamber for future episodes, maybe. But first of all, first of all, I want to introduce our guests. First of all, it will become immediately clear why this gentleman is on the podcast again, Jonathan McWarder, our video extraordinaire. Uh Jonathan, how are you doing today? I'm great. I'm happy to be here, Tony. Thanks for having me. Very happy for reasons we'll get into in just a moment. Next up, we've got client advisor Rich Fordin, fresh off of an emergency visit to the U.S. Passport Office. He is shipping out to Geneva in mere moments, but I had to have him on the podcast for many reasons. But Rich Fordin, how are you doing today, sir? Good, Tony. How are you? Thanks for having me on your show. I'm doing well. I question for you. Did you get the pod or the podcast? Did you get the passport in order? Are you gonna be able to raise the paddle this weekend in Geneva? We're all good. I'm picking up my passport in a mere two hours. A mere two hours and then he'll be straight to straight to JFK and he'll be he'll be in Geneva before you know it. Uh finally we've got uh Malaika Crawford on the podcast once again. Melica, how are you doing today? I'm all right Taney how are you? I'm good. I'm just happy to be back. We took a week off. I took a week off, I should say. You guys are in the trenches working, but I took a week off. Are you happy to be back, Tony? I I'm coming back refreshed, better than ever, Jonathan. Thank you for asking. But we're going to get into it with you first of all, Jonathan. I mentioned that we brought you onto the podcast for a very special reason. If you'll recall, guys, we did a 21st century watch draft a few weeks ago. Jonathan James, Danny and I all took part. We all built little four-watch collections in four separate categories with no brand repeats. And the votes are in, ladies and gentlemen. Uh, Jonathan, do you want to guess who won by a mere three votes? I'll just tell you. It's you. Congratulations. Wow. Thank you, Tony. Congratulations, Mr. McWarter. You won. Let me just give you the quick rundown of the watches that you picked that won you this very coveted title. I knew there was a reason I was here. Did you get him a prize? I think this is my prize, is I get to come back. I think Mark won a couple of months ago when we did one a few months ago. So I guess uh next time you're in New York, the title bill will transfer custody from from Mark to you. So congratulations for that. Let me just tell you real quickly the watches you you won with. So first of all, you chose, as you'll recall the ex,plorer 2, 16570 with a black dial. And then after that, for your dress watch, you chose the Longa Saxonia thin with that blue kind of speckled white gold dial. Your complication was the Vacheron Constantin Le Historique triple calendar. And then finally, for your budget, you chose the ever trustworthy G Shock 5600. I think you wanted the one that was the atomic clock sinking one, which maybe that might be 5610. I don't know if it has a different reference, but it's a it's a watch in a shape we all know and love. So Jonathan, congratulations. Uh thank you. Wanted to talk just briefly with Rich and Melica. You know, you guys obviously listened to that, to that episode and re-listened, I'm sure, multiple times. Any watches that that you guys think we missed from our sort of overview of 21st century watches and watch making that you feel like would have been important to include |
| Malaika Crawford | ? Um I feel like anything I say is probably gonna be so unpopular, but whatever. That's what I'm here for, right? Well what is it? I'm like that. Yeah, geez. Um well no, I just uh it was sort of quite um expected, I feel like that list. Um boring. Kind of boring. I'm sitting right here, Molly. It was a little pedestrian. Hang on. Let me just |
| Tony Traina | . No, Jonathan, yours were stunning. Well, give me something outlandish from the last twenty-four years of watches that we missed that we should have included, Melica. Um, I feel like you should have included an RM. |
| Malaika Crawford | Obviously. Yeah. Yeah. Which one would you have included? I personally would probably include like one that works for me, um, out of selfish reasons. So an 0701. But I don't know, what do you guys think in terms of like the broader RM world. |
| Tony Traina | For me it's the Nadal. I knew you were gonna say that. Well this is this is in the in the realm of watch nerdery, that's like the RM to pick, right? Uh yeah. Rich, Rich, you have thoughts on RM as well. What which one would you have picked? I think uh it is a glaring omission to not sort of try to tell the last 24 years of watches. I mean, it's kind of to be honest |
| Malaika Crawford | . Yeah, it's a it's a very like important part of the last 20 or whatever years, even if you didn't like it. Yeah, Tony, I think it kinda falls on you |
| Rich Fordin | because among the people on that draft, you were the closest to RM, I feel. I mean James is not throwing an RM out there, is he |
| Tony Traina | ? Uh you'd be surprised. You'd be surprised. I think the mistake, if there is one, is that we didn't include kind of an indie category this time around. I don't know if that's an omission or I just wanted to kind of keep it tight. I did budget instead. I try to be relatable. I'm kind of an everyday. Oh, right. Because you did categories. Okay. Yeah. So we did sport dress complication budget. There was no indie category. I used my dress to do an FP Jordan. To me, that's like the other most important kind of independent watchmaker of the past 24 years. Rich will probably come at me with like the DeFor Simplicity or something like that. More modern folks, there's the Recchep, uh, Reccheppy or even an Acrivia if you want. Uh so I think a lot of the sort of omissions, as much as there are any, are the lack of of independence. Uh so many of them kind of got started in the late nineties, early two thousands. You talk about |
| Malaika Crawford | Erwork. Um I feel RM is such a glaring omission because it's like something that a lot of people outside of watches know about. Nobody knows what an U work is. Sorry |
| Tony Traina | . Uh sure, sure. I suppose that's true. I suppose that's true. Uh Jonathan, Rich, anything else you want to say about the 21st century and the 21st century watch draft before we move on to today's agenda? It was a great 24 years for watches and uh we just didn't have enough space to to pick to pick them all. Uh look forward to the next 24 years, huh? Rich, anything else? Anything else? What would you have what's the one watch you would have picked if uh one some one thing we didn't what's the the sort of first glaring omission from your perspective |
| Rich Fordin | ? Well, the first glaring omission was already mentioned before simplicity. It was you know announced in 2000, so it's the most important watch from you know this century but we'll move on i had a gripe with the ap pick i think okay the rd2 is great i love a p professional calendars and the history that ties back into like the twenties with that. I mean, you'll never find a bigger fan of those watches than me and AP's history in calendars. It's the RD3. It's the best turbulent on the market. It's way better than the RD2. So if there was only one AP, which I understand the rules now is one brand only, one watch per brand, I really don't like the RD2 as a pick. Well Rich, there's a whole lot more rules that we're we needed clarification on. So like that's just the tip of the iceberg. In my many listens, I got so tired of hearing about the rules that they |
| Malaika Crawford | have just all come out the side of my head. I actually agree. I agree with Rich. Why would you do RD2 if you could do RD3? Yeah, that's a stinky pick. |
| Tony Traina | We'll have to get who chose this? Danny. We'll have to get Danny on the podcast to defend his pick as Danny's not really an AP guy. He just he just chose it because he felt like he had to. No, again, this is kind of for all the reasons Rich mentioned, this is kind of the watch nerd pick of the RD family, or if you're gonna try to choose like the supercar of of Royal Oaks, I feel like this is the one uh in some ways because of the ties to the the historic q ps and all those things, but you know, I'm not gonna argue with the RD3 being the the current quote unquote correct choice either. Guys, today we're doing something different. We've got a bunch of topics to to get to, uh, a list of QA's. Hopefully, we'll come through with with some exciting new takes. Uh I, you know, I was out for for a week, a week and a half, and I came back to all kinds of news, all kinds of watch stories and new watches and watch releases. And I wanted to just do a bit of a Q |
| Rich Fordin | . Well Tony will know this well as some other hodinky staffers, but the answer is Movado. Um they will never do it the correct way, but if they ever did, it would be amazing. Let's just get this out of the way. If you don't know Movado and you think of it as a mall brand or a museum watch brand, buy the book, read the book, you'll see what I mean. If they actually did a pre-Vay level collection of some of the stuff from the 30s, 40s, 50s. They'd be a much different brand, but they won't. |
| Tony Traina | So we we can move on. Yeah, totally true. You know, they did one watch that was like a sub-C chronograph kind of homage in a way. It it didn't really land, but they tried. So that's that's something. But yeah, they'll they'll never do this. You know, I had Jonathan Fair of Brew Watches on the podcast a couple months ago. And he, as he talked about, started his watch design career at Mavato and I asked him about this like do they care about their heritage at all and he was like uh not really so so keep hoping against hope ri |
| Rich Fordin | ch one last thought I I know that they actively buy very very, excellent vintage watches. Um, I know they're an active player in the market. I don't know what they then do between buying them and then coming out with a product because I've seen that process like five years ago, they were buying subsequed chronographs, and now they came out with something similar, but it's not even close to the original. It's just a dumbed-down, you know, modern version. Um, but anyway, brands that shouldn't do it um is more of a hot take. I'll leave that to someone else for now and let me think |
| Malaika Crawford | . Melica, please. Can I go? Yeah, Offs. Uh I actually think no brands should do it and everybody should stop being so lazy. Um I like this. I like this. Just kidding. Um, I feel like Cartier can do it in a way that the others can't just because of the sort of like m they're a little bit of a different category, I think. Um even though I don't love all of the previous stuff, um, I just think they're able to execute things in a slightly more elegant way than some of the others, probably due to their like design history. I do think the Zhou needs a little help, and that collectibles thing was sort of outrageously priced. So maybe they want to try their hand at doing something that's vintage focused instead of selling vintage watches at over double their |
| Tony Traina | value. Yeah, uh so I'll pick it up there because Giger was was mine. Uh I love vintage vigil and they continue to be sort of one of the most confounding modern brands. I love so much of what they do. I love the watchmaking history and you know the grand maison and the watchmaker's watchmaker and all these sort of things. I wrote about the new duometer just a couple of weeks ago that they released at Watches and Wonders. Sort of an amazingly complex watch, really cool, even kind of somewhat wearable, quote unquote, for how complex it is and uh from the movement even to the to the case and the dial work. But there are some things there that it's like they cut costs in certain ways in the manufacturing that they didn't 15 or 20 years ago. And it's obvious that they've done it, right? Like one that I called out in the article is they're not using Jummer German silver for this particular movement in the duometer anymore, which is which is fine. Like most people probably don't care about that. They just want a duometer that looks cool. Um, even little things, like it doesn't have a deployment clasp anymore, which is fine, right? Uh, but it's just these little, these little things that it's like if you're gonna give us this duometer that's gonna be this amazing complicated statement about everything that you are as a watchmaker, like please go all the way the way that uh Longa honestly does. I mean it's a brand, it's in the same stable and they're able to do this for the most part. So I'd you know bit of a different price point there. Well, sure, sure. But honestly, like the way in which it it'd be fine if the prices at Gigere hadn't sort of increased uh so much in the past handful of years. A lot of brands have done this. Uh just prices have really gone up since I don't know, since COVID basically in the past four or five years. So it it'd be fine if prices hadn't kind of gone up so much. But that's separate from this historic point I wanted to make, like the last real kind of modern hit, there have been a few actually, uh, one of which James mentioned in the 21st century fantasy draft we did. He chose actually a Gigère deep Sea chronograph, which is modern and stuff, but like a cool watch with some vintage heritage. The the best kind of modern Gigère has been the tribute to 1931 Reversos that they've done that they started doing in 2011. And they kind of just haven't found their way with the reverso, in my opinion, in the past few years. The modern collection, for the most part, is not doing it for me. The chronograph accepted, I suppose. I think the reverso chronograph is a cool watch, but that's not really a a heritage play in the way the tribute to nineteen thirty-one was. I mean, I just want to see like a great steel reverso that's a heritage inspired watch from them. And they just don't have that right now. And to me, there's no reason that like there's no reason that the Reverso shouldn't be um like maybe not Royal Oak level or Nautilus level or something that everyone knows and recognizes and wants, but like the history is all there, it's a legitimately cool watch, but something is missing in a lot of the modern Reverso catalog. Uh I I think they're paying attention to this. Obviously they are, they've done this before. Uh, but I just hope they kind of get back to that uh uh in some some way on a more sort of broad level than than what they're doing now. Um Rich doesn't like reverse is is that true |
| Rich Fordin | ? I'm not a huge fan. No. Uh the modern one. Vintage or modern? You're just not into them at all? I mean, of course vintage ones are great, but I think we were just talking about this the other day. Um the cases are just really not that well built when you get really old with reversos. So the dials are always refinished for the most part. If you can find an original dial, like it's literally needle on a haystack stuff. And finding an original reverso is hard anyways. Um but those dials are mainly re-finished or very poor condition. But yeah, I don't like modern ones either. The dials are really flat. I think they need to change a bit of the dial manufacturing or something. It's it just does not pop in person, but I I like the model. Well, isn't that sort of like what |
| Tony Traina | we're what we're talking about here is that there's a lot of rich potential in the JLC archive that there is to work with. They just they weren't made very well back then, but now this is what we want to see, like modern manufacturing with this, you know, these older proportions and stuff like that. It's like that, I think JLC is a great uh great candidate for that that category that somebody should they should be doing this and arguably a bit better than they are. Very yeah, yeah, and I don't want to make too much out of it because JLC is a modern watchmaker, one of the few that kind of like is pushing watchmaking forward at the scale it is. So I don't want to make this sound like their entire thing should be please JLC do a heritage reversal. That's not what they're about. They sure like the duometer is a great example. It's got some modern watchmaking and it's improved upon the idea that they initially introduced in 2007 or whenever it was. Uh so I don't want to sound like we're banging on the door at Lysentier or wherever and and being like, no, just give us heritage watches, right? Well I think Rich is what Rich wants a better reverso |
| Rich Fordin | . I am, but again, this question is like to the level of Cartier's privé collection, which JLC could do, it could be a small portion of their offerings and give people |
| Tony Traina | like me what they want. Yeah, exactly. I mean the privé is a very small proportion of what Cartier does, a limited edition of a few hundred a year, really, really aimed at at hardcore collectors of of Cartier or or of watches. And that's all that's all we're asking for, I think. Gives give something to the fanboys I suppose uh every every once in a while. Tony, uh brand that should not do this. Um this is a good question. Let me do you have an answer or D Melica, do you have an answer or Jonathan while I while I think just a moment? I have an answer. Oh. Okay. We |
| Malaika Crawford | 'll have an answer. You guys go first |
| Tony Traina | . I have Attack. Oh. Do you want to explain or do you just want to |
| Rich Fordin | just Mike just drop the microphone there? Uh I want a reaction first, but I think vintage Patek just kind of sits in its own category and as many gripes as I have with what they offer today, um, if they were to go back and like revive some of the called Travos in like a pre-based sense, I really don't think that there would be much reason to do so. Uh it's very easy to go out there and buy a vintage Patek at like a really, really nice level. You know, there they wouldn't really be serving something in the same way that Cartier is really, really, really hard to find in good condition. For example, like that platinum sandre that you wrote about, I think that was last year, you know, that's like restored and you just can't find them. That's why they're that expensive. So when they come out with a platinum centre, it makes sense. But for BatTech, I think leaving the history in the past would be the best, which I think they're doing. Interesting. Melica |
| Malaika Crawford | , your choice. Um, I definitely feel like AP should not do it. Either way, that was why. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody goes on about like AP dress watches or like jewelry watches or whatever. Um don't don't need to see that |
| Tony Traina | . I don't think it matches the um no what the brand is |
| Malaika Crawford | going for culturally and everything else. It's it couldn't be further apart. And I have absolutely no doubt that they will not even go there. Like they just it's like not within the like |
| Tony Traina | MO right now. Yeah. I mean, you know, to Rich's point, you if you want that, they did some of that in the nineties even. Um, but I don't if the code 1159 sort of the last collection they tried to launch is any indication. That's not really a heritage play in any substantial way. Although maybe they'll do it on some small level. Remember, they did the remaster 01 a couple of years ago. Um, and then uh presumably it was named the O One for a reason and there would be more coming. Uh but it I'm not sure. We haven't seen anything since then. But that's like a very that was a very one-off thing. For those that don't remember, this is kind of a an AP, a modern AP chronograph, two-tone, and it's a kind of reinterprets of 40s AP chronograph. And I think it came out to mixed reviews four years ago. I can't even remember, you know, uh at this point, but maybe that's kind of what put a pause on the entire program and made them refocus on on other things. As well as I think it came out right around the the 1159 anyway. So there's there was probably just a lot going on and it it the idea got put on the back burner. So so we'll see. We'll see |
| Malaika Crawford | . The way they executed the star wheel goes like into your little th thought bubble of they're definitely not looking back in that way. Like they just like |
| Tony Traina | keep it. Yeah, yeah. And I, you know, when we covered the Star Wheel, I said like this is a for modern AP, this is probably the best way for them to do heritage. And it was to me one of the best uses of the code 1159 at the time. Others have made the point that it's best when it's a vehicle for complications. Uh and the Star Wheel is a fun way to do that. But I think that's about the, I think that's probably how they'll use their their heritage going forward. I was going to say AP as well, because it that they fall into a category with other brands that I won't name that I feel like they're planting their flag strictly in their heritage and they're not really they uh all they're doing is just making the same thing over and over again. And I want to see new stuff. And all they're doing is focusing on old things at a mass-produced scale. And it's it's not, it doesn't feel particularly inventive. It gets stale after a while. And I just I want to see new things from a lot of brands that are maybe too much focusing on their heritage and not in the right ways like a brevade type collect collection. We're moving on to a different topic for now. We're going to start with Rich on this one. Uh, as I mentioned, Rich is heading to the airport soon to go to Geneva to to bid or at least evaluate some some watches for clients as a client advisor here here at Hodinki. Rich, as a client advisor, how do you navigate the quote unquote precarious world of auctions in 2024? So for those that might remember, there were, you know, a handful of of quote unquote controversies, I suppose, around the auction world last year. OnlyWatch was postponed. It's happening this year. There was, of course, the sort of Franken Speedmaster that sort of came to light in June of 2023. But Rich, I just want to know as someone who's actively involved in that world. H doow you go about evaluating sales and then the watches that are being offered at these auctions every season |
| Rich Fordin | ? At risk of sounding like a sales pitch here, uh, the important thing is to first of all see the watches in person and speak to collectors or experts in the various fields that of the watch you're looking at. Those are really important. That's why I'm going to Geneva tonight to look at the watches in person and advise in that way. Um, the world of watch auctions, sorry, is very like insular, um, which I've learned over the past five years or so. Uh the people that are involved in bidding in these auctions constantly are all from like the same group of people. And if you're not talking to that group of people and understanding what these watches really are, and you're just taking the houses at their word, that's where you run into trouble. Um so it's important to see the watches in person and know someone who can speak to these experts who understand exactly what these watches are. Yeah, |
| Tony Traina | I think to zoom out a little bit, something we maybe we just haven't talked about in our auction coverage in the past few seasons that maybe we should just remind people is the entire job of watch auctions is to represent the consigner, aka the seller of a watch. And I think people just at a very fundamental level kind of sometimes forget that. Or people that are new to watches maybe still don't even know that. So these people are at the end of the day representing the consigner of the watch and incentivized to get them the best price. Obviously they want to make sure everyone's happy with the deal. Otherwise you'll you'll kind of get problems down the road. But kind of everything, you know, there's the classic saying, I think it's Charlie Munger or whatever, right? Show me the incentive and I'll show you the result. And that's kind of what happens here. And I think to Rich's point, a lot of the so-called controversies that happen are related to a perceived lack of disclosure. And to Rich's even larger point, often this time, this is uh coming from people that are commenting on social media or in Hodiki comments or wherever else. They're kind of observers and maybe not actively involved in the auction world on a really meaningful level, like every season talking to this uh this really insular group of folks. And if you get into it more, you kind of realize that um auction houses even like will disclose to their clients more than they kind of list on the listings or in their condition reports once you reach out and sort of make a personal connection with with their specialists or whoever else it is. So I think um there's a perceived kind of lack of disclosure that sometimes is done on the back ends to like trusted clients and folks like that, but people that are just people that are viewing it uh uh from the outside looking in more so see this kind of lack of disclosure as as more problematic than than the folks that are actually in it uh really see it as. And I think that's kind of like it all goes back to the incentive, right? That I that I talked about at the top, but I think uh a lot of it's kind of overblown, honestly. At the end of the day, it's typical sort of social media fodder, but but there are real concerns. And I do think this kind of like perceived lack of disclosure, whether or not it it is um real, kind of does turn people off from vintage watches, which is unfortunate to me because the, you know, I love vintage watches for all these different reasons, as the as does everyone else on the call. And I think, you know, hopefully there's sort of a tide turning. And I think it I think it will uh as people kind of expect more of these auction houses and of just private dealers as well. So I think maybe a tide has turned or will turn. Um but that's kind of just the the 30,000 foot like takeaway that I wanted to to leave this question with |
| Rich Fordin | . Yeah, my last point here would just be that um, you know, in the art world, which many of these auction houses, most of them outside of Mantiquor are are are are art There's a whole world of art advisors in the watch here in that in that world. There is not that world here in watches. And the houses still act like that world exists with watches, they treat them roughly the same as they treat art, you know. Like you say, representing the seller first. And there's no vehicle in the watch world to represent buyers, which is honestly what I try to do and why I'm making the trip and all that, but like that's not a sales pitch. That's just calling out that there are no watch advisors. There are dealers who go to the auctions and they have their own incentives, right? It's just the important thing is talking to people, talking to people that you trust and understanding their incentives like you |
| Tony Traina | say. Rich, we're gonna keep it with you and then maybe Melica and Jonathan can get in the mix on this one. But why does it feel like no one is talking about vintage Rolex, vintage sports Rolex specifically right now. Are there value opportunities to be found in this once hot segment of the market? I'm talking a lot, Tony. I would |
| Rich Fordin | like to pass the mic eventually. Um vintage Rolex, I think the issue is that the prices haven't moved much. Um, you know, even three years ago, the prices were I got many clients coming to me saying that they're just way too expensive versus what they were five years before that. And even though the market has downturned or there has been a downturn, uh, and sales volume is not as high as it once was, like three, four years ago, even two, um, the prices aren't really moving all that much. And they're moving maybe a couple of gram, but a nice vintage submariner is still, you know, 20 grand and roughly 15 to 20, depending on how nice you want. Um, that's pretty much the same price level as it was three years ago. So we have prices not adjusting to them not being hot anymore. So they don't sell. |
| Malaika Crawford | Th there's seems to be still so many of them at auction. Like any time I go to a preview, there's just like masses of it. Um, so I guess somebody is buying it. Well, Melika, I |
| Tony Traina | mean, oftentimes you write about these really fun watches, 70s watches, shapes, colors, blah, blah, blah. But most days I see you, you are wearing one of the simplest watches ever made, sort of a five, five digit or early six digit Explorer one. So I mean, the appeal presumably is there. And it kind of gets to a question I wanted to ask later on, but like at the end of the day, Rolex, you know, it's what you're wearing. So I think the appeal is still there, right |
| Malaika Crawford | ? I think the appeal is still there for most people. And the way that I look at watches, I think is usually less about what I would wear and more about what I find interesting, which is why I don't really understand the argument about sort of brands like RM or whatever um being sort of out of your out of your price range because I'm not looking at RM or whatever a uh an expensive AP to think about whether I can wear it or not. I'm just looking at it as kind of an object that I'm into. Um, but I would probably most likely wear the same kind of watch every day because it just works and it's practical and it looks good |
| Tony Traina | . Yeah, something you have to learn to do relatively quickly in this job is appreciate things while acknowledging that you might never buy them or or sometimes even be able to afford them, right? That they're just cool objects to exist in the world. And part of our job is trying to translate that. Sometimes we succeed, sometimes we fail, and that's fine. But I think, yeah, you're you're totally correct. Yeah. I think like these, you know, I don't know if this answers your question or not, Tony, but like when it comes to something like vintage Rolex and col like Rolex at auction, like I think to paint with a with a push broom, like people are bored of it, but obviously people are still into it because there's a lasting thing about Rolex. It's you know it's Rolex for a reason, but it's still it exists right now in an area that most people can't penetrate and it's not really approachable and it's hard for, you know, we can appreciate them if we're existing, but it's not really a an area that a lot of people can participate in, which is why I think that maybe some sentiment is has faded there, but it's it's not as interesting as it maybe it used to be because you can't uh most people can't get there. You can't get into the party. You just kind of look in through the window. Okay. Everyone, the next question I'm going to ask, now that we're a couple of weeks removed from the official release, seriously, what are your thoughts about the Tag Hoyer Kith Collaboration Formula One release? Meleica, surely you have thoughts as one that one that is intimately familiar with the culture |
| Malaika Crawford | . The culture that every commenter is like, what culture are you talking about? I'm like the culture with the capital C. Capital T, capital C. Um, okay. Yes, I have thoughts. And they're not as negative as some might expect them to be. Okay. Yeah, so when we all found out, like every person in the watch industry has known for like two years that this was coming. Um, so it wasn't really a surprise. And there was the whole argument of you should just make them exactly the same as they were, and then I think there was some sort of, you know, speculation as to whether they were gonna really re-release them in a bigger size, yada yada yada. Uh and so actually the Kith collaboration, well it not it it might not be like the avenue I would go down but I think it makes so much sense for a brand like Tag Hoyer to partner with somebody like that. Um and I think it allows them to kind of get closer to the original model without like stepping too far away from what they're doing in a modern sense. Um because you can kind of like use KIF as the excuse or whatever. And they're not making it too big. Like they're not I think they've done a really good job. And I think collaborating with Kith in this instance makes total sense, especially considering like who they want the target audience to be for this product. And I like the way they've kept it pretty similar to the original specs. Yes, if I hit one more person go on about the price, I'm literally gonna shut down. I don't care. It's fifteen hundred dollars. It's not that big a deal. Like any brand like that collaborates with a streetwear company like that is gonna price it at that kind of level. So I don't want to hear it |
| Tony Traina | . But that's kind of how this thing sort of works, right? When you wanna reintroduce it maybe something that people have been asking for. It's kind of like a pilot program. Like you you make it limited, you make it sort of expensive to I don't know, like to put it really generally, like kind of test the waters, so to speak, like without doing it exactly the same, because do it like that's a little derivative to do it exactly the same as it once was to reintrodu |
| Malaika Crawford | ce something. You gotta do something a little bit different. Yeah, they absolutely should not make this part of their like main offering. I do not think they should. I think that would be a big m |
| Tony Traina | istake. Well can you expand on that for a second? Because part of my assumption was limited edition, let's test the waters in a year or so, maybe we release a a mainline collection that's a little bit cheaper because it's not a Kith Collab and it'll be more widely available. This is part of my assumption, no inside information truly, but I I had a soon. Yeah |
| Malaika Crawford | . Um, why would you do that? Like people need to stop doing this. Um and it feels like if they did that, it would kind of be sort of like a moon swatch um situation and that makes things very sad. And I think if you that was a bit harsh, wasn't it? I think I think if you're trying to kind of get brand recognition and elevate like your street cred then street cred then cool do the collab but then leave it alone and get the name out there and get people looking at the brand and maybe try and do some like different things. But I think it would be kind of lazy to just do a bunch of kind of quartz watches that were truly a a moment that has passed from the 90s. Like it is not the nineties anymore. Yeah. Maybe this is my old |
| Tony Traina | man question for for you or for anyone else. But maybe my concern as an as an old man is or could be. Tony. I know, but I have I have an old soul, Melica. I have an old soul. Uh okay. So here's when I got into watches I don't know, probably a decade ago at this point, one of the things that appealed to me about them was it's felt very removed from streetwear, sneakers, all these types of things that like managed to generate hype. And a decade ago, like Supreme was the thing, right? And watches felt so uh felt like the total antithesis of that. And now it seems as though one of the lessons the watch industry has learned is that you from that, from that whole thing is you need to collaborate to create a moment to drive hype, to drive brand awareness, which will drive sales down the road, et cetera, et cetera. And it seems as though the Kith collaboration, the $1500 price point, uh, you know, it makes sense in the world of Kit. It doesn't necessarily the price point I'm talking about. It makes sense in the Kith world totally when uh a sweater is 800 bucks or whatever it is. It doesn't necessarily make sense in the world of tag whore, but that's fine it's limited edition. So I'm not gonna uh be the umpteenth person to complain about price anyway, but but my worry or my potential concern is we're leaning into that as the perceived lesson from streetwear and how they've become so popular and so ingrained in in the culture, capital C, capital T. And in the meantime, we've lost the original sort of appeal of the Formula One that is the nostalgia play, where it was so accessible. It was in malls everywhere, and it got so many people into Tag Hoyer and Swiss watchmaking at a time when there had previously been concern that the entire industry was not going to exist a decade from then. So please respond to the old man question I've just posed |
| Malaika Crawford | . Listen, the way young people consume products today is vastly different to how they consume products 20, 30 years ago. Um, and we just have to like get up to speed with that. Um, and that is what the brands are doing. Tag Warrior is an LVMH brand and Frederick One, who was like, you know, at the helm of Tagway, presumably during the product development, recognizes that young people today are consuming things like via different mediums and streetwear is like the largest just as hip-hop is like you know probably the kind of largest cultural movement for young people, so is streetwear. And so that's how you kind of like get into the minds of young people today. I think it's like really obvious |
| Rich Fordin | . I think it's a good point. Like in the same way that someone is nostalgic for walking into the mall and buying a Formula One in the 90s. Some kid in 20 years is going to remember signing up for the drop on Kith and how he was lucky enough to get this rare item, and that's his |
| Malaika Crawford | nostalgia now in 20 years? It's just totally a different time. Like teenagers like are shopping differently. They're looking at different things on the internet. Like I think we have to like get rid of this idea that kids today are shopping the way we did in the nineties. Like it just it's not the same. So does that mean more limited editions? And the limited edition thing is like in the way that like rappers were always kind of this like they were figureheads kind of like an emblematic of the success story. And it wasn't necessarily like they bought diamonds or five times in, so you have to. It was like that's the aspirational product that you can one day have too. Like this falls under that same model. And I just think like people going on about the price or whatever it being like a a forced collaboration, a sort of missing the point. Like this is for the mainstream. This is like for the kids. This is not for like, you know, the 40 year old man sitting at home like commenting on our articles |
| Tony Traina | . Sorry, but it's true. I need the youths to come. I need this is why I need you, Malica. I need you to explain the youths to me. I don't understand it anymore. We're filming this a week or so after the Met Gala, and my question for you, Melica, and others, of course, is quite simple. Have brands, stylists, etc., ruined watch spotting at the Metgala and other red carpet events. Yes. Explain. I have like I have I can argue it either way, so I'll argue the other way after you give your your give your position.. |
| Malaika Crawford | Okay Look, I honestly to be honest with you, I don't have that many thoughts on this. I feel like I've I've spoken my thoughts, thoughts. Everybody knows my thoughts, including certain brands who are mad at me for my thoughts. Listen, I was never out here watch spotting before my career in watches on the red carpet. I'll be totally honest. I couldn't have probably paid less attention to anything on the red carpet. Um I'm like looking at what people are wearing, uh, you know, whether it's their clothing or whatever. The thing is is that even like their outfits are kind of less organic than they were say 10 or 20 years ago. Like it all falls under this kind of brand hegemony like pay-to-play umbrella. So whether it's the watch or the dress or what have you, like it's all pretty boring these days. And it's sort of less about kind of cool weird swan dresses on Bjork, and it's like more about Louis Vuitton paying Emma Stone thousands of dollars to wear a dress every time she walks on the carpet. Same goes for Omega, same goes for Vashron, same goes for IWC. Like it's not organic, but what can we do about it? If I was a celebrity, I'd be taking a check too |
| Tony Traina | . Oh yeah, totally, totally. Uh you know, I'm looking at just to kind of I want to level set this a little bit before we get too far into it, but we published a little watch botting at the Met Gala 2024 a week and a half ago or whatever it was. I'm scrolling through it and I think there are probably just a couple of what I feel are truly organic watches and everything else was was placed by a brand, I would say. I think uh Chris Jenner's husband, Corey Gamble, I think is is a well-known collector, wears his own watches, right? And he's my king and queen. My |
| Malaika Crawford | king and queen. I'm obsessed with the Kardashians. Um, I just am sorry. Cara Barrett and myself are constantly texting each other pictures of their orchids. And we find them absolutely fascinating. And uh yeah, Corey, who else was wearing doething? I can't remember. Uh I wanted to pose a question. Jerry |
| Tony Traina | Seinfeld wearing a Chanel J12 might be a lot. Is that legit? No way. That's such an odd one, right? He was wearing Chanel, I think. So I'm sure they just So they placed it then. Okay. The other one I had, maybe John Patiste wearing the Cartier Tank Prive Normal. We saw him wearing a Shapiro on a red carpet this year as well, which is a very a very watch guy watch. So I feel as though |
| Malaika Crawford | . It wasn't organic. You know why? Because there was a Cartier party at the Carlisle and he was like there and I think he was performing. And so I feel like that was |
| Tony Traina | not an organic thing. Okay. Well. Yeah. Okay. So maybe Corey Gamble is legitimately the only gamble king of the red gold. Oh, I saw Ed Sheeran was wearing the John Mayer A P. And obviously as well. But that's you know, we all obviously we we know that one. Uh yeah. So listen, the alternative take, I suppose, Melica, that I wanted to pose to you, again as a question. I'm just asking questions here. Uh is at the end of the day, celebrities, by and large, are just people. Not a lot of them have style. And if they didn't have stylists, they perhaps would not be pushing the envelope in a way forward. Like these guys in this case wouldn't be wearing small watches, dressier watches, uh, and like pushing the envelope of what is you know seen as a quote unquote man's watch. And I'm curious if we would be pushing fashion or watches as as items forward in the same way, if not for all of this stuff happening in the background. I I kind of understand the counter to that as well. It's not really stylist anymore. It's brands pushing an agenda nowadays. So I think I understand like the counter-argument, but I just want to pose this as kind of a potential counter argument to oh boohoo, brands and stylists have ruined everything. Um stylists haven't, but |
| Malaika Crawford | they kind of have. Stylists, like stylists, the stylist job, I mean it really depends on the celebrity. Like sometimes it's a partnership, you know, and the person has a lot of opinions and they have a lot of personal style and it's like a collaborative effort. And you can see that you can see when that happens, like you can see it with people like Timothy Charlemagne or Rihanna or whoever. Like they're people that would just naturally be cool anyway. And then you have the people who really need like the full squad to do the like full thing. Um, and the stylists are kind of pushing the agenda. Like, I'm sure bad bunny would never have come to like wear small watches if it weren't for his stylist. So in that sense, like it is important. But then you know, there are stylists who probably take a check from brands for like, you know, that's how it works. Like the celeb the celeb will take a cut and say will the stylist like everybody's getting a piece of the pie um and i think we just have to be kind of transparent about that but it's definitely the brands who kind of create these contracts where they dictate, like, I don't know, Margot Robbie is wearing Chanel and she has to have her hair tucked behind her ears so you can see the earrings. And she has to do like the uh kind of pose with the arm and it it's very like it's kind of crazy. It's all very contractual. Ye |
| Tony Traina | ah. Yeah. Uh you know, not the first thing that lawyers and contracts have have ever ruined, speaking from experience. Ye |
| Rich Fordin | ah. My my question here is like what is ruined exactly? Um, because I think it's still I I know they're not wearing their personal watches, like obviously I get it. I think it's still quite interesting to see which celebrities are like mailing it in or which are like John Baptiste picking a pre-vay cartilage. You know, like I still think that's interesting, even though they're not wearing their personal watches, whether it's the stylist, whether it's the celebrities taste, I don't really care. I think it's funny and sort of absurd to see which celebrities throw on the latest release because the brand told them to, and which celebrities are like, No, I'm not wearing that. I'm wearing a ladies crash. I I think, you know, watch |
| Tony Traina | like what's what feels ruined is like watches, as we all know, are a very personal thing and it's a matter of expression one way or another. And when it gets so commercialized, I think what feels ruined is that that expression feels like it's taken away. It's like it's no longer about any sort of bigger theme. It's like these watches are be feel like they become shoehorned into these scenarios when otherwise it would be like a a really interesting like oh just like we just were talking about we got really excited that maybe for a second Jerry Seinfeld was wearing a Chanel J12 but then oh well he's wearing Chanel so, they probably gave that to him. Like it becomes less exciting that he didn't necessarily or potentially he didn't for himself, it was chosen for him, and that feels less fun and inter |
| Rich Fordin | esting. Yeah, I agree with that point, and I should have put a caveat on this whole thing, this whole take, as like, listen, it's 2024. Everyone is getting paid to do something. So like let's just realize that and have fun with what the current state of it is because Robert Redford's not showing up in his red sub anymore. Like |
| Malaika Crawford | that's just not what's gonna happen in this year. Yeah. I think for watches, to be brutally honest, I care a lot less about the placements than the clothes. Like the clothes to me are just I get very sad about it. Um but the watch is like you know what like pick up your check and wear your IWC like good for you. Melica, can I ask you what makes you sad about the clothes? Um yeah it's like the especially for something like the Metgala, like you should have sort of like freedom to go as crazy as you wanna go. And I feel like what starts to happen is that you know everything just looks the same and it's kind of like a trickle down effect. Um and it's like every arena just starts to look kind of, you know, whether it's like, I don't know, kids on TikTok or whatever, it's just like there is no diversity of thought. And it's like all really comes from these like holding companies, right? It's like LVMH telling everybody what to wear. It's like especially for a red carpet like the Met Gar when you should be like celebrating this is like so cringy, but you should be like celebrating fashion, but you're like coming to the carpet in the most like boring deal gown because that's what you have to do as per your contract |
| Tony Traina | . Uh that's right. That's right. We're all celebrating the costume institute, right we sho shoulduld we be costumizing things |
| Malaika Crawford | yeah shout out to like I mean it just 20 years ago it would have just been a different stor |
| Tony Traina | y yeah yeah well I think that was a good conversation. We do these watch bottings, you know, every red carpet season, we dutifully post these because the reality is people want to see what celebrities are wearing, placed or not. And we do them every season, but we I just wanted to use this as an opportunity to zoom out and talk talk about the ecosystem a little bit more. And I know Melica, you play in that world a lot. So so thank you for that. Thank you to everyone. I think we're going to have to leave it there. As promised, I think we got to about five of the 10 QA questions I had listed out. So we're keeping some in the holster for a future episode. But thank you all for playing along. Thank you, Jonathan, Rich, and Melika. We'll be back next week. We're going to be doing a bit of an auction recap type of thing, but because it'll be a little bit delayed, just because of our recording schedule, it'll be a little bit zoomed out, and I've got guests, uh, Eric Ku and Justin Gruenberg scheduled to come on. So hopefully, we'll have some good auction market and just general vintage watch fun discussion. So thanks to everyone for listening. Thanks to our editor Vic Automanelli, and I'll see you again next week. |