Previewing The Geneva Auction Season With Ben And Mark¶
Published on Wed, 1 May 2024 16:55:00 +0000
This week, we're back talking auction action ahead of the upcoming Geneva spring auction season. To do so, we've invited two of our biggest auction lovers – Hodinkee founder Ben Clymer and editor/photographer extraordinaire Mark Kauzlarich – to talk about what they're watching in the upcoming weeks.
Synopsis¶
In this episode of Hodinkee Radio, hosts Tony Traina, Ben Clymer, and Mark Kauzlarich discuss the upcoming Geneva auction season, featuring sales from Phillips, Christie's, Sotheby's, and Antiquorum. The conversation begins with a market "vibe check," reviewing recent auction results including Monaco Legends, where records were set for a Rolex 4113 split-seconds chronograph (selling for $3.6 million) and a platinum Serpico-signed Datejust. The hosts express some skepticism about whether these ultra-rare pieces truly reflect broader market trends.
The discussion then turns to Only Watch, the charitable auction that's returning after a six-month delay due to financial concerns. While acknowledging its importance for charity, the hosts debate whether Only Watch results—including an expected strong showing for a steel Patek Philippe 6301A sonnerie—truly matter to the overall market, since charity auction prices are typically discounted when discussing historical sales records. They note that some major brands like Audemars Piguet and Tudor have dropped out, though Patek Philippe and F.P. Journe remain committed.
The hosts dive into highlights from the Geneva sales, including ten watches from Michael Schumacher's collection at Christie's (featuring a specially commissioned Royal Oak and vintage Daytonas), a rare pink gold black dial Patek Philippe 2526 from the Samsung collection, and multiple Cartier Reversos appearing simultaneously. Ben expresses enthusiasm for Tiffany-signed and full-set Patek Philippe 2499s at Sotheby's, while both Mark and Ben highlight a never-before-seen blue dial steel A. Lange & Söhne Lange 1 at Phillips as a scholarship-changing discovery. Tony champions an early 1990s Frank Muller perpetual calendar minute repeater with a Hagmann case as his personal favorite, demonstrating the breadth and depth of offerings across the Geneva auction week.
Links¶
Transcript¶
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| Tony Traina | Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Hodinky Radio. We're back again this week. We're not talking new watches again, still in our post-watches and wonders hangout or hangover, I should say. But that's great because it's auction. season Auction season is coming up. So the first big sale season in Geneva, where the four big watch auction houses have their sales kind of within a few days span, is going to be happening. So that's Phillips, Christy's, Sotheby's, Antiquorm for those following along at home. I've got Mark Kalslerich and founder Ben Klymer here to talk about all of our favorite things, uh, a few of our favorite things, all of the sales in Geneva this this week. We're gonna do a vibe check on the market. We're gonna pick some of our favorite lots, some of our least favorite lots even guys. And we'll see what else comes up in the in the hour long chat or so we're about to have. First of all, Ben, how you doing? I'm doing, man. How you doing? I'm good. You know, for those listening on the YouTube, watching on the YouTube, it looks like you are in my grandmother's attic, perhaps. Uh am I am I too far off there |
| Ben Clymer | ? I am in a grandmother's attic. Um, but uh not your grandmother's attic. Right. Well, |
| Tony Traina | that would be concerning. Uh okay. Well I am in a, I'm actually on vacation technically, but I'm in an undisclosed business center in in Mexico City recording this just for your viewing and listening pleasure. That's right. That's my dedication to the listener, everyone. Less exotic, Mark Kalzerich is sitting uh amidst the well-known bookcase in the Hodinky office at Hodinky HQ down in Soho. Mark, how you doing? Doing doing great. |
| Mark Kauzlarich | Came all the way to the office. So I had a nice background for you guys on the watching on the podcast, not listening |
| Tony Traina | . Well at least one of us has a good background. Okay guys, I I like to start these things off. We haven't had sort of a uh auction discussion, market discussion on the podcast since really December, if I recall, when when we all kind of went to the New York sales together, we previewed the things. We talked about them. That was in the Ben Climber Presents days for those that are old enough to remember that. Well God, those were heady days. They sure were. But guys, I want to start with a little bit of a a little bit of a vibe check before we get to what's going to be happening in in the Geneva sales. There's probably a thousand lots we could we could talk about in Geneva. But we've already had some some sales in the past month or so. So there were Hong Kong sales from some of the big houses. We didn't talk about it on the podcast at all, but there was this interesting sale during launches and wonders week called Rough Diamonds. Uh Sotheby's put it on in this kind of wine cave. It was just a cool condensed curated sale of 24 lots of these kind of funky design-driven stone dial 70s watches, Cartiers, Piagets, all of these things that are super hot that we talk about on this podcast sometimes. Results from that were quite strong. Uh, we saw some of the results from Monaco Legends, which was just a week or two ago. So uh we'll start with Monaco Legends, I think. Mark, you're you're more intimately familiar with with what happened there so maybe you can give us sort of just maybe one or two highlights for for you or maybe even just like a general vibe check in the room since since you were out there and and what it felt like to be amongst amongst the movers and shakers of Monac |
| Mark Kauzlarich | o. Yeah, it was an interesting time in Monaco for sure. I would say overall, um, it felt like the auction was maybe starting off a little slow. Um, every auction house sort of approaches estimate ranges differently, and it's hard to in the midst of looking through a catalog, unless you're gonna compare every single lot against market comps, it's really hard to tell, you know, where things should land or how aggressive the the estimates are. Um I think Monaco, unlike an auction house like Phillips, which tends to start really low on estimates, Monaco um went pretty aggressive uh with a lot of the estimates. And so that kind of led to a sense that the auction results might not have been as strong. I I don't really know how true that is. I mean, there were a number, there were two specific records set off the top of my head there was the 4113 split second rolex there are 12 that were ever made there are nine of them known that was from uh john goldberger's collection and was in the talking watches that Ben did with him back in the day. And that sold for I think 3.6 US all in, something like that. They also set a record for the most expensive date just ever sold, which was the platinum Serpico sign date just. So I mean, setting records is I think always a good mark that things are going well. Um, but you mentioned Piaget before, that's something that I kind of watched very closely. There was a big piaget section in this auction. It's an anniversary for Piaget. Tony, you could probably remind me which which anniversary. I don' |
| Tony Traina | t I think it's 175. Oh, I'm so glad for those at home that play the drinking game, how long until into an episode until Piaget is mentioned? You know, you're already on the floor at this point. So I'm sorry about that. |
| Mark Kauzlarich | It it wasn't, you know, to me it was it was still a lot of looking around the room, it's a lot of dealers buying Piaget, expecting that Piaget will go up. Um, but also dealers pointing out to me that there were hundreds of thousands of pieces made versus Cartier that like everybody points to has a similarity. So you're not going to see average PAGA pieces jump extremely high. I don't know. It was an interesting auction. I just think a lot of people are probably going to be looking towards Phillips, which is sort of the barometer for where the uh where the |
| Tony Traina | market stands right now. Yeah, the Piaget thing is interesting to sort of mention that a few of dealers were there bidding it up. I remember having a very similar impression watching, it was at Christie's last May. There was this run of stone dial Rolex watches. Uh, and then maybe there were a few stellar dials in there as well. And I just like very, very cohesively remember, like five or six dealers, young, old, whatever, kind of just bidding each other up on every single one of these watches and it felt kind of unsustainable, right? Uh or it's just people kind of chasing a supposed trend. And I think that's that's happening all over the all over the space. Uh uh it's interesting to watch, I suppose, especially when you can see it in person. Uh Ben, you and I were were not fortunate enough to be in Monaco. We were observing from the comfort of our of our own homes here in the States. Any sort of high level takeaways for you? Would it be bad if I said not really, Tony? No, I think that's fair. I mean, look, the takeaways Mark gave us were were interesting. Uh, we mentioned two quote unquote records, they're fairly obscure records at the end of the day, right? Uh uh a record for a one of 12 watch. It's it's cool, uh, a record for a day date uh is cool, but sort of oh day |
| Ben Clymer | just date just yeah I mean look I I can just because I feel like the readers pay us good money and that's a joke because they pay us nothing, but I think the you know I'll give some feedback here 500 euros for a date just is just outrageous right i mean i i i used to own a um uh a very rare gilt like glossy gilt uh white gold date just which i bought in italy, because where else would you buy a watch like that? Um, and I paid like, you know, this was two thousand fourteen or fifteen. I probably paid forty euro for it, which is like just crazy for a day just. And I remember when I tried to sell it, there was like two people on earth that like were even interested in that watch, anywhere remotely close to what I paid for it. And then the 4113, obviously, we all know that watch, so it's the talking watch is cheap knife watch. It's incredible. And I think you know that that's probably more of a barometer on the market than then the date, just for sure, because the last time a 4113 sold, it sold at Phillips, which is as Mark rightly said, is kind of the benchmark barometer for the market. And if if this one is uh this one did better uh then the last one. That that that b |
| Mark Kauzlarich | odes well, I think, for for the market. I'll I'll say one other thing about uh both of those. So first of all, the the all in price on that date just was uh seven hundred and thirty four thousand euro, which is oh wow. Absolutely insane. That's crazy. To me, thinking as if I were lucky enough to own a watch like that, it would be hard to imagine letting that go. Um, you know, Goldberger is a different kind of character and his his uh interests are always changing. You know, we talk a lot about what he likes to collect and so things come and go um for him. But I asked him, you know, why why decide to sell this watch and why sell it now? And he said, I was curious. I was curious now in this like moment in time what the market would bear. I think this isn't going to be the last that we see of this reference. There's one out there that is apparently new old stock um that everybody's sort of kind of quietly holding off. You know, if you're gonna buy one maybe for the Rolex Museum or whatever, a lot of people are kind of waiting until this one comes out. So um it's a good it's a good barometer for the market in terms of like is this top stuff gonna still go for top prices? But um definitely not the last we see anytime soon of this watch. Yeah. I mean look, I I can say that like |
| Ben Clymer | Goldberger's forty one thirteen is a watch that like I would personally love don't because it like it I mean look it checks the box b the the boxes for me as as somebody who was involved with kind of like the introduction of that watch onto the the global stage of course and talking watches i'm obviously very close to it with oro he's a great you know he's mentor to all of us basically um and the split seconds you know have a universal that that is very much the same caliber um it is an amazing watch and it's also the condition of that watch to me is a condition of a watch that I would buy, right? A new old stock 4113, even to be clear, I can't afford any of these 4113s, but if I could, a 4113 that you can wear every day, not every day, but you can wear it and feel good about is very different than a new old stock one, which like you know, it's I don't want to say it's priceless, but there's if they made twelve and there's one that's an old stock, like that that's the that's the archetype. Like that's the one that like should never be worn, no matter who you are. Um so you know, if I could have, I would have bought that that 4113 from from RO for sure. Um but at the same time also I understand like, is it a real Rolex? 100%. We know that Rolex made that watch. But is that movement to Rolex movement? It's not. And you could say the same thing for any Daytona, right? But a Daytona, you also have the dials and the cases that are really like really right up the center of Rolex dumb, if that makes sense. Whereas this is like this is like an a total oddity. Like this is not a normal thing, right? Like six zero six two, I love and many of us love because like that is an that's basically a date just case. That is an Oyster case. The uh the 8171 uh is not an oyster case, but has a lot of Rolex DNA in it. The 4113 is like has zero Rolex DNA in it. Like even the crown, the coronet, like really doesn't even look like many of the other crowns on any other dials, not any other dials, but many other dials. So it's a total oddball. So I understand that like if you're a Rolex collector, it is so different than every other watch out there that it's almost like not even part of the family. To make a comparison to my my beloved car world, it's basically like the M1 in BMW world, right? Like the M1 is dramatically different than every other BMW, including every other M car ever made by BMW. And it's like because of that, it's like, oh, is this a BMW or is this really like a Lamborghini or is it is it Italian? Like it just doesn't really fit. Uh but the forty one thirteen is for me is is a very compelling watch but I understand why it might not be for some even diehard Rolex collectors. And |
| Mark Kauzlarich | one more thing to note about that because there were multiple people in that room that owned own or owned other 4113s. At one time, there were people standing at Monaco Legends that cumulatively all had five of the nine. They didn't all have them with them. But and I asked one of these collectors who, you know, does not want to be publicly known. He said, yeah, I sold my 4113 a while ago because exactly what you said, it just doesn't fit alongside any of the other Rolex watches that I had. It was a fun curiosity to have for a while, but it's just not a part of you know, the collection that I'm trying to build as a cohesive thing. So it's uh, you know, something for some people and maybe not for others. Definitely not for me at three point six million dollars, but yeah, Mark, keep blogging. You never you never |
| Tony Traina | know. That's right, baby. Um yeah, you know, your statement there kind of is where I wanted to finish this off, right? Forty one thirteens and seven hundred thousand dollar date just speak almost nothing of the broader market that concerns folks like us, folks like those listening on a day-to-day basis. They I I don't want to make they're fun results and fun headlines to write, fun results to look at, but they say almost nothing of the market more broadly or where the the watch collecting world is at. That I mean to have five or five people who have owned a 4113 in in the same room at one time is is heady stuff and it's not um it's not really indicative of where the rest of the the collecting world is at. I wanted to move next to uh only watch because it's back. And Mark kind of wrote an article about the Patek Philippe that was introduced as going to be auctioned off at OnlyWatch. So it's a 6301A. It's a uh steel sonnery and minute repeater. I'm gonna have you talk about that watch in just a second, Mark. But before we talk about the new paddock that they introduced, that's going to be auction at only watch, I want to give a quick sort of update and I just want to get sort of our perspectives on if we even care about only watch at this point after all that's happened over the past six months. So for those who don't remember, it was supposed to happen in November of 2023. It got delayed after some collectors and other folks kind of raised financial concerns and legal related concerns about uh only watch and how the funds were being spent and used or not used and all of these types of things. So they took some time off, uh they took a step back. They did get an audit from a big four uh auditing firm and only watch it basically back on what's happened is there are now 48 of the 62 brands I believe are taking part. Uh some have dropped off. Uh so brands like AP and Tudor, I believe are probably the big headliners that are no longer in it. But a lot of the the other big brands stayed. So Paddock stayed, uh, Rec Shep stayed. And then a lot of the indies. I asked some of the smaller, quote unquote smaller indies at at Watches and Wonders, like, hey, what do you think about OnlyWatch? You're still in it. Uh, and they basically follow the lead of paddock and Rec Shep. Uh, it kind of sounds like uh it's I think it's really hard for it's hard for me, it's hard for them to to follow uh everything else that's happening and they just want to make watches at the end of the day. So it sounds like kind of those two brands uh or or folks set the lead in a lot of ways. But Ben, maybe you can pick up on it here for just a second before we talk about this this steel paddock because it is a cool watch I want to talk about for just a moment. But uh let's do a temp check on on OnlyWatch. Do you still care about it and everything that's happened over the past six months? Do you have any sort of strong inclinations one way or the other? |
| Ben Clymer | Do I care about it? Yeah, I do because it's a it's a it's a seminal event within the industry. It's a it is always interesting to see what happens, but I'll I'll respond to your question with a question for you. What is the most expensive watch ever sold anywhere? The paddock Grand Con from OnlyWatch 2019. Is that correct? |
| Tony Traina | It is. It is an OnlyWatch Patek Philippe. How much was it for? Without Googling it. I think it was 31, 31 million. I can't remember if it's Swiss francs or dollars, but they're about the same. So |
| Ben Clymer | okay. That is probably 99% more information than the average watch collector knows about that sale. And so all of this to say it's like it the only watch stuff is so interesting, but also so not. And I want to be clear, like what is interesting is that like this is poor charity doing good. Luke Pedrovino's son passed away from from this disease that we're supporting here. So like that, that is obviously of great importance. But the the actual sales themselves have taken on such kind of like uh like it means so much, but it's so temporary, you know, like the the results are aren't meaningful. But if I said, hey, what year did the Paul Newman Daytona sell and how much did that sell for? A lot of people would know that answer, right? And I think even if you said, okay, before the Paul Newman, what year did the grand comps, the the Henry Graves super complication sell? And I think a lot of people would know that. And it was the man in the red tie. And you know, Claude was bidding. And it was like there was real like lore around it. Um and I I think all this to say, like OnlyWatch does matter, but it matters to a to a lesser degree than I think um people might realize. And so that this this petek, which is a steel hypercomp, right? It's a sonnery uh with an ML dial, like we'll just do an insane number. There's no question about that. Well, will it really mean much to the market? I don't I don't really know. Um and then the loss of AP is a significant one. You know, AP is never you know it's never about AP at OnlyWatch. It's always Pat Tech. It's always FP Jorn. So you know, Patek will Petech will dominate, obviously. Um it is, I will obviously watch it. I will we will obviously report on it, but does it really matter? No. I I don't think so. Because it's for charity. And I think, you know, for for those listeners at home, like anytime you talk to an RL Box or a Sam Hines or an Eric Koo or anybody that's like really, really close to the the watch auction world, and you say what are the top 10 watches sold ever, they always completely discount anything sold for charity. So yeah, I I care about it, watch it, but it's not like I'm not like I'm not, you know, I'm not gonna sit in front of my TV with a bowl of popcorn watching it. I'll probably I may or may not have it up on my phone from wherever I am in the world at that point. You know |
| Tony Traina | ? Uh yeah, Mark, you wrote about this the the paddock, this what is it? The 6301A. So steel sonnery minute repeater, beautiful guilloset dial. I think it's engraved uh on a gold-based dial, actually Anything you want to add about the paddock that we kind of didn't got you uh sort of excited or or just only watch more broadly even? Yeah |
| Mark Kauzlarich | , I I don't know. I mean, but I've been thinking about OnlyWatch a lot over the last um you know six months or however long this sort of story has been unfolding. The dial looks a lot like the new 5178. Um, so I don't know. I guess they just use the same engine turning style for that dial and different color and so on and so forth. But it's a it's a cool watch. Um, but I think you know, my question is like, is this going to be the last only watch? I think you know only watch would say no. Some people around them would say no. I'll be curious to see if they try to do it on the same cycle, like just get back on that every two-year cycle and and act like there was no delay here. Um but I just I don't know what this means for the fut |
| Tony Traina | ure of OnlyWatch for sure. Yeah, I'm not sure anyone knows. Uh, but in the meantime, guys, the estimate, the estimate on the paddock, 1.5 to 1.8 Swiss francs. What do we think it's actually going to do |
| Mark Kauzlarich | I don't know like my mind goes to like five to seven or something it's not gonna be higher you think that much higher but I would have put the over under at 10 but what do I know? Okay |
| Tony Traina | . Yeah I mean I I don't really know. It's it's hard for me to |
| Ben Clymer | imagine. I I think you know I I think that there's also like this will sell for north of 10. I think it has to. Um but does it matter? And I I I just don't I don't think it does. I I think like there are there are charity auctions that matter a lot in terms of setting precedent like when the when when our friend zach los bought the Tiffany Nautilus for five whatever million six point five million oh six point five million I'm so sorry like what what's what's a million between between friends you know um the for six that that was so unexpected and so jarring that it did set the market right and like even to this day those the a fifty two thousand dollar nautilus that you buy from fifty seventh street is worth over a million dollars every day of the week, no question about it. Um that meant something because there were there was the exact same watch available and it looked just like the one that Zach paid six million dollars for, available to you know, whoever, whoever, whoever they allocated it to um this there's not going to be another stainless steel 6300 you know so will it really matter i i i don't know i mean you know it's gonna be on bloomberg, it's gonna be on C N D C we're gonna cover it, of course, but I d I don't think it it's of of great difference to the market at large, honestly. Yeah. It's it's like the forty one thirteen, only like even more esoteric and for charity. So it's like just like taking taking like meaning. It' |
| Tony Traina | s totally it's totally abstracted from any sense of reality, which is fine. I mean, you know, yeah, what I write about all the time, man. Yeah, yeah, that's what mark that's Mark's bread and better. I mean, everything we do like is on the scale of like abstracted from reality, but this is all the way to the to one side of it, you know? Agree. I agree. There |
| Ben Clymer | there are other watches only watch that I think will have more importance for sure. Uh I I'm curious to see what the retrap does, of course. Yeah. Uh I'm curious to see what the tia o fre watch does which we wish that watch is cool we saw that in person yeah it's the it's really cool and like it's really cool in that like you know it's it's it's like when red chap's first only watch sold for for big money i think it was like in the three is which was big money for him back in the day. Um, that really helped establish him as like a hot watchmaker. And I think the the most compelling part of Only Watch for me is seeing these young guy, younger guys or you know, not as well-known guys, get real attention and real dollars put behind their brand, and all of a sudden it becomes kind of a kingmaker. And that is what is the most compelling but only the watch |
| Tony Traina | . Yeah. So quick, quick thing on the the Theo Frey. He's you know young French watchmaker. He did a collaboration for only watch with with Peterman Bada uh great great young watchmakers in Switzerland who we've covered on the site as well. So they kind of collaborated on this observatory style time only watch. It kind of takes it takes some of the quote unquote famous aspects of both of their finishing, so the Peterman Badalgays, for example, are they blackpolish a lot of their components, so you see that in there as well as sort of the the signature style on Ofrey's bridges. But Ben and I saw it in person very briefly at at the Beau Rivage uh in in Geneva a few weeks ago. Really cool watch to see in person. And Theo seems like a we talked to him for just a few minutes. Maybe you talked to him more Ben but seems like just a really cool guy. I agree. I agree. So I'm excited for that |
| Mark Kauzlarich | . Excited for that. I will also say like this matters, I think, maybe most to the the smaller brands like that because I mean Ferlon Mari is going to probably do something with what they've got for only watch and and they need that that watch to come out first before they can do, you know, their cereal production of whatever might be based off of it. So I think just to have this done um will be a great help for the market in general so that we can get to like stuff that is actually tangible and viable |
| Tony Traina | . Okay, guys, let's leave only watch there and let's talk about real options. Uh I had listed Christie's first as the first one to talk about because they have a few watches from Michael Schumacher in there, which I thought was like an interesting thing to talk about. Uh so the the sort of they're building it as the headline of their sale is kind of 10 watches, I think, from Michael Schumacher's collection. They're being sold at Christie's. Uh, it kind of starts with this specially commissioned Royal Oak chronograph. It's got the Ferrari dancing horse, and then it's got like Michael Schumacher's helmet in a couple of the sub-dials. Kind of a cool watch. I can't even remember what the estimate is. 150 to 250. Thank you. And they've also got a FP Jorn Vagabondage with like the dancing horses at every hour marker. It's kind of ridiculous. If I'm being honest, aesthetically, neither of these super appeal to me. The story is cool. They're gifted from Jean Tot, who is kind of a well-known watch collector. Christie's a couple of years ago sold a lot of watches from his collection, 40 watches or so. Uh, a lot of FP Jorns. He has a solid relationship with him, tons of piece uniques and Ferrari Red and all these types of things. So it's cool to see the relationship with them that seems to have developed and include watches. So he gave the the Royal Oak, for example, Jean Tat gave the royal oak to Schumacher after he had won his sixth F1 title. So I think it's just a cool story that they like kind of commemorated some of their their very successful relationship, might I add, uh, three watches, and it's cool to see. I also thought it was cool to see there's a couple of uh vintage Daytonas. There's a 6241, and then there's a 6262 Paul Newman. Neither of these are in like perfect condition, uh, but it's it's a provenance play anyway, honestly. Like the bezel is not original, there's loom plots missing, in case it's been polished. It's kind of cool though. It's maybe it means Schumacher was actually wearing them after they'd been given to him. I think these were given to him by Todd as well. So it's kind of a cool variety of watches, and it it seems to indicate to me that Schumacher was actually into it. And I I talked briefly to to to one of the specialists at Christie's and he had mentioned that uh basically said there's a lot more where that came from. They've got I can't remember what it is eight or ten watches from Schumacher, but there are there are like dozens of them, it sounds like, uh, if not even more than that. So it'll be exciting to see if if more stuff comes to market after after this. But anything from sort of the Schumacher collection get you guys interested, or is the story interesting to you guys at all or am am I I like am I just being overly romantic about a relationship between a driver and and a principal here |
| Ben Clymer | ? I like I don't think you're getting overly romantic. I think it's important to I think it's important to note that that Schumacher to this day uh resides in Geneva. He lives in Geneva, Switzerland. I I when when AP launched uh the Schumacher split second crazy chronograph many years ago, there was an event at his at his barn, his horse farm. And I sat there with his manager, who is still his manager, and chatted. And like Schumacher is a real watch guy. He resides in Switzerland. John Todd, uh obviously close relationship with Jorn and NAP of course. Uh so I think these are like these are real, real sentimental gifts from important people. And again, I think like we we all might be, I I kind of caught the tail end of it, but like Schumacher was the guy, right? I mean, like the absolute goat of of racing of F1 20 years ago. And I think it's it's a little bit of like, you know, would would people younger than us really connect with a whole collection of Michael Jordan watches, right? Like I think our friend Basu, uh NYC watch guy on Instagram, would definitely freak out. And I think I would freak out to some degree as well. But like, you know, it's just a generational gap. But there's a lot of people out there that are now, you know, my age that are starting to make a few dollars, and I think these will appeal greatly i think the the ap in particular i find to be the most compelling uh because it was personal gift uh it is a white gold chronograph of which there are not that many out there uh 39 millimeters which you know, as many people will say, is kind of like the the prime prime eight P Royal oak size. Um I think they're really compelling watches. And I think yeah, I think some F one nut will go crazy for these. I really do. Yeah, |
| Mark Kauzlarich | I'm gonna see these uh I think next Friday. They they have have they're gonna them in New York. They said, Hey, do you wanna see Michael Schumacher's watches? And I thought I I gotta at least I gotta at least see Michael Schumacher's watches. I mean the FP Jorn actually like it's completely ridiculous, but uh but really cool. And it was also a gift. It was for seven championships. So you've got the six and the seven, which is really cool. But um definitely yeah the AP is something that is I think a little more approachable for sure. And yeah, I'm I'm curious to see what these do uh just generally. There's also is it a ruthenium set that they had as well? Yeah. But my question is like, does it bother you guys at all when these like boxes are just sold separately. I mean like I guess nobody's guaranteed to buy all of them. It's just a weird thing. Like what am I gonna do with a FP Jorn box if I'm the poor guy that bought three or four of the five? It's just a very it's always an odd thing |
| Ben Clymer | for me. I get it, but at the same time, also like, you know, what if you have two of them? You don't want to buy the floor. Like you're just like, if if you don't do it uh split up, then you're just limiting the potential number of bidders dramatically. Yep. |
| Tony Traina | Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Uh I well, I was gonna say, so what they're doing, if it's not clear, they're selling all of the Ruthenian watches separately, all five of them, I guess. And then the box comes at the end, and there's a chance. Phillips did the same thing a couple of years ago. Uh, these were for Jorne subscription number one, so a little bit different, but it ended up being a hundred thousand dollar box. I don't think we're gonna get a hundred thousand dollar box this time, guys, but we could have another sort of crazy stupid FP Jorn box result, which is always always ridiculous to see. Ben, I had mentioned or I had listed one watch, especially for you in this sale. Do you know what it is? What's that? It's black twenty six or which black dial 2526, Ben. You got it. So I'm gonna intro this watch real quick. I want to get your thoughts on it because it's interesting watch. Black dial 2526. It's interesting because it sold just uh a few years ago. So it was part of the Samsung collection. I mentioned this because I just wanted to mention the Samsung collection quick quickly. This isn't what it was called. It had it had it had some sort of fancy name, but kind of a well-known story in the watch world where uh uh the one of the Samsung sort of magnets was a massive watch collector. And then when he I think it was when he died, he kind of left the family with a massive tax bill and was basically forced to liquidate a lot of his assets that he had collected, not just watches, but other things as well. Uh so around 2020, 2021, just tons and tons of amazing watches came up for sale from this collection specifically. One of which was this yellow gold black dial 2526, a watch that I know is near and dear to Ben's heart, which is why I bring it up. And I think less than like 20 black dials have ever appeared. I uh I'm curious, Ben, if it if it's one of your sort of I know your affinity for the 25-26, obviously. Is the black dial just like a little extra special sauce that that gets you excited or or not? It it is, but Tony, I I hate |
| Ben Clymer | to do this to you, but you made a this vintage watch faux pas here. Uh uh what did I say? This is not this is not only a black dial 2526, this is a pink gold black oh it is pink gold and there's like eight pink gold or something. Yeah, yeah, something like that. Sorry, I don't know the number of them had, but so the the the pink gold is the x factor here. So the the the black dial is incredibly rare. Uh, in particular, black dial with an extract that says black and mammal dial. Like that is like anyum. Okay, well, a pink black dial is I've actually never with the this wash, which sold from the Samsung collection, I've actually never seen another one really available. And this one does look absolutely mint mint. Um, so yeah, no, this this gets me going for sure. Um, would it would I spend that type of money? I for me, as a as an individual in my present situation, no. But I mean I I love the watch and it it is a holy grail 2526. Um I am like our our friend and colleague Melica Crawford, I'm more of a yellow goal guy than a pink guy. But there's no question that the rarity in in pink watches get pink paddocks get get people going and pink pink black is very hot for sure. This is this is a killer. I mean this is uh you know for somebody that's looking to get a a top top tier Fitek self-winder, this this would be right up there |
| Tony Traina | . Yeah, totally. Hey, do you think the whole pink gold thing is overplayed? I mean, it we always kind of just we we melt into puddles when we when we hear pink gold vintage paddocks and things like that. Uh obviously there's the rarity there, but I'm wondering sort of just from a collector perspective, maybe it's an aesthetic perspective, like do we do we overdo that a little bit too much |
| Ben Clymer | ? With panic as you as you know, or Rolex for that matter, it it almost doesn't even matter what it looks like. If you can say it's five times as rare as something else, then people want it. So as I said, I I genuinely prefer yellow gold to pink gold. It just looks, I think it looks better on me. Um, but pink it is that much more rare from any manufacturer uh in in the in the mid mid-20th century. So I are we overdoing it? No. Uh because again, like you're you're people buy rare stuff and people pay for rare stuff. Uh you know, you have another watch company, Averett Phillips that is basically like an enamel dial um uh color drop as well? Like that is rarer than 2526. Is it better? I don't think so, but it's rare, therefore it'll sell more. Um, so you know, it's uh I don't think we overdo it because again, we're talking about a world that is so focused on rarity in general |
| Tony Traina | . We're gonna start jumping around a little bit because we mentioned Phillips and there was another enamel dial there that I wanted to mention. There's a 2577. I wanted to mention the watch because it's similar to a 25 uh 26, but it's kind of a little known cousin. There's only only a handful known. It's like thought that less than 60 were made. It's a little bit uh different of a watch in the sense that it's manual wind, but it's kind of got this case that's reminiscent of a 3448. Uh, it's got these kind of like angular lugs. Uh, it's a cool watch. You don't see it that much. So I just wanted to mention it because it's there are basically three watches in vintage paddock calatrava world that had enamel dials like this: the 25-26, which we've talked about, the 34-28, which came after it and had kind of the updated um 12-600 movement or whatever that first automatic movement was called. And then this is kind of the the manual wind cousin. And it's it's actually probably the rarest of the bunch. Probably wasn't as popular at the time. It didn't automatic movement, all of these types of things, but just a beautiful watch. I I wanted to mention. I don't know if it does anything for for either of you guys |
| Ben Clymer | . It does. It does. I mean, like I'm I'm looking at it right now. That is a very compelling watch. Uh yellow gold enameled along. Like I, you know, with with the exception of the 2526, like and that that's for other reasons. Like, I prefer a hand wound watch. Uh, as you can tell, I prefer a hand-wound watch today. Uh, but it's um no, that that's a very compelling watch. I love this |
| Mark Kauzlarich | watch. I think you know, um, something that I hadn't really thought of. I'd love the thirty four forty eight. I'd love that really strong case shape. Um it's it's something that I think is a little overlooked when brands are looking a little bit to the past and trying to figure out, okay, what can we do to to bring back something um like this so yeah i'm i'm not a player on this i'm not a player on a 3448 but i think hey if you've got the 3448 already you probably should be looking to pick this up |
| Tony Traina | . Sure, why not? Why not? Guys, a couple of other things I wanted to mention at Phillips. You know, I was looking throughout the sale and about throughout all of the Geneva sales, not a ton of like super interesting, true vintage Cartiers. There's a couple at Phillips. There's a 1930s tank guiche and then a London Lozenge watch. You kind of, I think they call it. So it's, I think it's an eight-sided, but kind of an oblong shape, and then it's kind of the watch head is built directly into the leather. But these are kind of the only real true vintage Cartiers I saw. Um I kind of the one opportunity to talk about where like what what's happening with with the Cartier market, if anything. Ben, I'm curious for your perspective first, because in Geneva, I know you kind of hosted a collector roundtable uh with with Cartier and with a bunch of sort of dealers and and high profile Cartier collectors. I'm wondering, I'm wondering if there's any perspective from that conversation or just more broadly that that that might be uh interesting to sort of discuss here |
| Ben Clymer | . Yeah, I mean I I say this every time like the the Cartier market is incredibly hot, but real vintage Cartier, and by that I mean pre-1970, has is so rare. I mean it,'s so incredibly rare. Like, you know, there's there's one or two, one or two good watches. I happen to know one very well that's coming up, uh, at Phillips. Um, there, you know, a real proper vintage Cartier, which that one certainly is. Like, you just don't see them often. So I, you know, saying that there's not many coming up, you know, to have two good ones publicly available at any given time is is a lot from from my vantage point |
| Tony Traina | . Yeah, I should mention there are a couple of centres at Geneva as well. Uh one is a nice London centre uh with a unique blue dial that I know is near and dear and familiar to all of us, but in particular one of us, right, Ben? It's a good one. Uh and then there's also another Cintray. I believe that's a a a Paris one from from the 50s or the 60s. But Mark, anything to add from from the Cartier perspective for you? I think uh what is it? There's fo |
| Mark Kauzlarich | ur or five Cartier reversos up in the same same auction season, which is just kind of silly, you know. That is c |
| Tony Traina | razy. Yeah, it is kind of weird. I think I s I I I mentioned this somewhere the other day that were, yeah, four or five. It's kind of funny. It's like a it's kind of a rare watch. I like I like JLC reversums better, honestly, vintage ones at least. Uh, but it's kind of funny to see, right? This kind of happens. This happens every auction season where a few just like uh there's like a random reference or two where there happens to be a handful that you wouldn't expect |
| Mark Kauzlarich | oh there's that snail dial I can't remember the reference uh 5975j uh there's one at Phillips. I think there's one at Southern East too. And it's just always funny to me. Like how these things, I'm sure somebody brought it to one auction house, they passed and they thought better of it, or knew that these were out being shopped around and and multiple people came out with them but doesn't actually do the best for for the market for these watches um so it's really funny that they all show up at the same |
| Ben Clymer | time yeah i i have so many it' thes the five nine seven five was for the 175th anniversary that was a watch that was so close to being so cool i remember talking with William Roar William and seen about it when that came out because that's a that that it's multi-scale, which is like everybody, every chronograph nerd's dream, but it's automatic. They use basically like a um uh a simple five fifty nine sixty movement in it when it's like why wouldn't you put the move from the fifty one seventy in it? So it's like that watch could have been a killer. And had they put the hand wound movement in that, that watch would have been c |
| Tony Traina | razy. One more oddity I want to mention. Maybe we can just wrap it up here, but there's three 25-23 paddock world timers, which is kind of rare to see. There's one at Antiquorum. There's one at Christie's Hong Kong. And then there's one at Phillips, I believe. Rare to see three world timers like that. It's cool. I only got to see the Antiquorum one. I was lucky enough to go there for an afternoon. Uh, when we were in Geneva a few weeks ago, I saw it is fresh to market from the original family or the original owner, even. Uh, really cool watch, one to two million dollar estimate, you know, heady stuff again, like we've been saying about some of these things, but but it'll be it'll be interesting to see how all of those do. Uh I will say though, the world timer that stood out to me at Antec Quorum was Mark, you'll love this the pocket watch that they have. Uh it's a world time pocket watch but it',s got this beautiful enamel dial. It's a pink case. And I don't know how how rare these things are, nor do I necessarily care, but in hand, the thing is absolutely gorgeous. Uh again, I think this one's fresh to market. I'd have to double check that. But like an absolutely gorgeous thing. I went there for an afternoon and that watch did more for me than uh anything. |
| Mark Kauzlarich | You're very rare to even see like an estimate range like this, which just makes me smile for some reason is uh a one million to two million dollar estimate on a on a pocket watch is is not a common thing so pretty co |
| Tony Traina | ol well guys we've been bouncing around for a while now do you want to mention maybe you're not prepared for this? I'm putting you guys on the spot, but one sort of favorite watch watch you're most excited about this sales season. I'll limit it to kind of the Geneva sales, but is there one watch that you're most excited about? I can start if if you want, you need to think about it for a second, because I've got one that's the clear standout for me, guys. Um, yeah, but and if you're if you're a listener of the podcast, you know that I have sort of an eternal fascination with one Frank Mueller, the master of complications. And there is a Frank Mueller at Sotheby's that is a perpetual calendar minute repeater from they say 1992. This is super early Frank Mueller years. It literally just says Frank on the dial. It doesn't even say Frank Mueller. So this is pre, I think he kind of incorporated the Frank Mueller brand right around 1992. So you'll see some of these pre-Frank Mueller watches. I've seen a few now. He was doing some truly, truly wild stuff. It's cool to see these early Frank dials, uh, just like the craziest of crazy things. But it looks like, honestly, I was scrolling through cat thealog and it looks like a briguet. We'll put the the the note or the link in the show notes. It's lot 48. It looks like a briguet case. It's like 36 millimeters, beautiful guilloset dial. And to top it all off, it's got a Hagman case. So it's got a Jean-Pierre Hagman case. This is kind of the legendary case maker who used to make cases for Paddock, Long Pond, now does it for Rec Chap. Uh to me, this is the coolest watch in the sale at Sotheby's. It's got an estimate of 50 to 100. Uh, we'll see what it does. I I'm the only one who really cares about Frank Mueller like this, but it's a cool watch for me and a cool story. Uh I'll give it to Ben next. You got a favorite? |
| Ben Clymer | I I got a got few. Um, there's a few watches of Sotheby's that I'm into. There's a Tiffany sign 2499, um, which is like uh that's right up the middle for me for sure. Uh that's very compelling. Uh and then there's also a um it's not Tiffany sign but there's a full set 2499 uh which is pretty unusual generally speaking you just don't see full set 2499s anywhere uh you know they kind of like they're they're so rare they often trade kind of behind closed doors so you don't see them at auction. And then a watch that is is really interesting to me from an like an academic perspective is Phillips has a Langa One in steel with a blue dial. Uh that is confirmed uh by by Lana. Stealing my pick, |
| Mark Kauzlarich | then. Oh, sorry. This is what you get for taking three watches. You you choose three for your favorite. And then I look I' |
| Ben Clymer | m entitled, right? You know, I've got a broad uh broad broad love of watches. Uh so yeah, blue dialed uh steel long one. I I've owned steel long ones, Longa One is a favorite. The early stuff I still think is undervalued. Uh there's a few of those, I think, somewhere out there on a Wellendorf bracelet. Um this is pretty rare. And I I know it's confirmed by Langa. Um who knows? Like though that early Longa stuff I still think is just so fascinating. Cause like you just like I I was with I was at a table in Geneva of five mostly Americans that like have been buying longa since the 90s and they had never heard of this watch, you know, and like if these guys had never heard of it, then like nobody'd ever heard of it. I really think it came from nowhere. Uh and that that's really exciting. Sorry, Mark |
| Mark Kauzlarich | . No, I mean I'll fill in because that was going to be my pick and I think it's really interesting. I'll fill on a little uh bit of information that I had heard um from somebody on background was that this watch apparently made its way into the hands of at least one dealer, maybe maybe two, who looked at it and just kind of like thought, like bold long a one, don't really need to do much with this, gonna pass it along. Um, and it showed up at Phillips and the first person that looked at it apparently also thought it was a white cold long a one and they when they actually took a closer look and saw that there were no hallmarks that's when they figured out this was a steel and a configuration that had never been seen before. Part of that is that the dial was was swapped at the request of the original owner. So and long confirms that that they they replaced an original silver dial with the blue dial, but yeah like you said anything that kind of changes our understanding of scholarship is pretty cool um i'm really if you know longa has grown on me in the last uh couple years definitely some level of Ben Climber influence in that but uh got to spend a lot of time with some long ins recently and especially being that this is the the an anniversary year um for the brand like really cool that this watch came out this ye |
| Tony Traina | ar. Yeah. Well, I think it just speaks to the entire breadth of these Geneva sales that we're here at the bottom of the hour almost. And we've just only now gotten to a one of a kind, as Phillips puts it in the title, a scholarship-changing stainless steel wristwatch. Uh it's it's yeah, it's an exciting time. Uh I always love, you know, auctions are kind of my favorite time of year. We're gonna leave it at that for now. Uh you'll catch us bidding on what? Steel Longa Ones, Frank Mueller's, and Tiffany2499s in in just a couple of weeks' time. But until then, yeah, in that order, sure. Uh, and you know, we'll have some additional coverage on the website, certainly uh over the next few weeks on all of the things we've just been talking about. So if we didn't get to your favorite watch or your favorite auction house, it'd be weird to have a favorite auction house, I think. But if we didn't get to something that you you thought we should cover, you just stay tuned or send all complaints directly to Ben Climber and we'll do our best to do what we can. But guys, an exciting time of year. Thanks for helping me kind of tackle at least at a high level and a headline level what we've got going on. Uh a final note, Podiki Radio will be off next week, because I will be off next week. And then we'll be back the week after that. Thanks for listening. Thanks to our editor, Vic Automanelli, and we'll see you in two weeks. |