Why Are Some Watch Brands Underappreciated?¶
Published on Wed, 13 Mar 2024 16:55:00 +0000
This week I'm joined by Ben Clymer and client advisor Rich Fordon. We cover a range of topics, but our main discussion is about underappreciated high-end watch brands. Using Laurent Ferrier as something of a case study, we discuss why an important watchmaker might not be recognized as such by the market, what went wrong, and what can be done to change a brand's perception. Before that, we offer quick takes on some of the biggest news of the last week: We talk about Audemars Piguet's slate of releases, including John Mayer's limited edition QP; the Morgan Stanley Luxe Consult report on the Swiss watch industry in 2023, finally, we offer a few recommendations for Hollywood movies about watches, as Oscars season comes to a close. Thanks again to Accutron for supporting Hodinkee Radio. For more on the Accutron DNA Casino Collection, visit accutronwatch.com.
Synopsis¶
In this episode of Hodinkee Radio, hosts Tony Traina and Ben Clymer, along with client advisor Rich Fordon, discuss the latest developments in the watch world as the industry gears up for Watches and Wonders. The conversation begins with Omega's highly anticipated white dial Speedmaster release, featuring a white lacquer dial that has generated overwhelmingly positive reactions from the community. The hosts also examine Audemars Piguet's latest releases, particularly highlighting John Mayer's subtle perpetual calendar collaboration that references the historic Tuscan dial.
The discussion then turns to the Morgan Stanley Luxury Consult report on the Swiss watch industry, which estimates Rolex crossed $10 billion in sales for the first time, maintaining approximately 30% market share. The hosts debate the accuracy of these figures given Rolex's extreme secrecy, while noting the continued consolidation among top brands. They also discuss success stories like Hermès' growth in watches and Swatch's commercial triumph with the MoonSwatch, which sold an estimated two million units. The conversation touches on declining sales for brands like TAG Heuer and Tudor, despite strong enthusiasm from watch enthusiasts, highlighting how small the enthusiast community actually is relative to the broader market.
The latter portion of the episode focuses on underappreciated brands in the collector market, particularly Laurent Ferrier. Ben Clymer reflects on how the brand, which he once considered among the finest makers of automatic movements, has struggled to maintain momentum in the secondary market despite exceptional craftsmanship and finishing. The hosts discuss various factors contributing to this, including market management, distribution challenges, and the evolution of collector preferences. They also examine the current state of vintage Lange & Söhne watches, questioning why important pieces like the platinum Pour le Mérite Tourbillon aren't commanding the attention they once did, suggesting a generational shift in collecting tastes and market dynamics.
Links¶
Transcript¶
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| Tony Traina | This episode of Hodinki Radio is brought to you by Accutron in the new DNA Casino collection. With 100 pieces made in four vibrant colors, the Accutron DNA Casino perfectly fuses futuristic watchmaking and bold design. Stay tuned later in the show for more on the brand's new collection or visit AcutronWatch.com for all the details. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Hodinky Radio. The watch world is kicking into high gear, guys. Watches and wonders is only about a month away. We've got exciting releases to talk about for just a few minutes here at the top. Maybe the biggest release of the year so far we're gonna get to from Omega in just a second. Um but before that, let me introduce the guests. First of all, you already heard him, founder Ben Clymer. Ben, how are you doing today? Do you think that they could tell it was me when I said yep? Of course. Ben come on. Uh it's like one of those songs that you can recognize with one note. Uh you play a note of thriller or something like that. I was gonna say hey Jude, but yeah, thriller works. Uh I appreciate that. How how are you, Tony? I'm good. I'm good. Thank you so much for for being on the show. You know, a few weeks ago you were on calling from your your home office here and I'm glad that we get to see some of what we've got going on in the background here. All kinds of goodies, all kinds of all sorts of stuff yeah. So someday we'll do a tour of of all this stuff. It's still being set up, thus the the boxes and and such kind of right there. But we're we're getting there. Okay, along with Ben, we've got our client advisor, former Division I athlete, Rich Fordin, who is sitting just a few offices away from me in the in the Hodinky Radio headquarters down in New York City. Rich, how you are doing today? Good. Thanks for having me on your show, Tony. Appreciate it. Yeah, of course. The first thing that we're gonna talk about is something I alluded to. The biggest release of the year, I would say. I mean, anytime a new Speedmaster is released, it's exciting news, I would say. But just this week, it'll be about a week and a half since it's been released by the time this is this is published. But we got a white dial Speedmaster, long sort of teased. Daniel Craig wore it to the Omega event thing last last year in New York. So we knew it was coming. I think the surprise is that it's listen, it's a speed master, it's exactly what we expected. A speedmaster is a speed master, but the dial is a white lacquer. Ben, any thoughts on on what we saw from Omega? Yeah, I mean, look, we we all kind of knew that it was coming, as you said rightly, because he he wore that watch to an event uh in the fall. Um it was interesting because I I own the the canopis white gold thirty eight sixty one, which is also a white dial speed master. And it's like this watch looks just like it from afar. And it's so like to the point where like there were photographs of me at we did an event, I think the night after or two nights after Daniel Craig's event at the Omega uh uh pop-up. And people are like, Oh, is Ben wearing the same watch that Daniel Craig was? And we I often get confused for Daniel Craig, so I'm used to that. But like this was really like, hey, like these watches are so similar. The canopice watch is like uh it's one of my favorite most understated watches. And so now all of a sudden you've got basically the same look, but with a lacquer dial, which an argument could be made is more interesting, and even the dial that's on the canopy watch. Um, and it's look, it's super, it's gonna be super hot. I mean, we've seen it already. The sentiment in in our comments on our site and certainly on Instagram have been we'll say like overwhelmingly uh positive in a way that you know most new releases, even from Omega, don't don't really get. Um so it's it's a big deal. Uh there's no question about it. And anytime you get a new variation on the moon watch, which this is, this is not like some automatic thing or some you know uh uh coaxial so-and-so. Like this is this is the true moon watch with a white dial. So very compelling. The lacquer was a surprise. Um, look, I think it's it's it's obviously gonna be huge hit for them. Rich, anything we can add there |
| Rich Fordon | ? Yeah, just to keep our friends at Omega happy, that'd be Planet Omega, the event. Um Planet Omega Craig was that right planet Omega. Dani Dani |
| Tony Traina | el Craig and Ben Clymer. And I think you came to an event too, Rich. Weren't you there? Yeah, I was there the same night as you, but didn't get photographed or you didn't get the photo, right? It was it was me, Andrew Garfield, the the lady from the show with that guy, Ted Lasso. Ted Lasso, and uh and Richard. That was basically all who attended that night |
| Rich Fordon | . Yeah, I was stage right. But Right. that's right. Um, no, I think it's good that you brought up the canopy gold because my thoughts on this watch are it's been a few years since we had a mainline speedy variant introduced that isn't a premium option, you know, we had the moonshine gold with the green dial and these various gold or precious metal options, but something that's in the core collection at a what I think is reasonable and what the communities seem to think is reasonable upcharge from the core speedmaster moonwatch. Um, something that's steel and and hopefully available with a new dial and even more so than the new dial color, like a new material. I think this all matters and it's uh it's injecting new life, hopefully, into the speed master because as an owner and lover of that watch, it it did feel a little stale as of late |
| Tony Traina | . Well, Rich calling the speedmaster stale is is right up there with Ben calling the crash pedestrian, I would say. Oh, don't do that. As far as hot takes are considered. Which wants no comparisons to me anywhere. Uh well, listen, that's great. Thanks for indulging the speedmaster discussion, guys. I know we've covered it on the site, and I'm sure we'll have we'll have more coverage at some point soon, whenever we can get hands-on with the watch. But I just wanted to talk about it for just a minute from two speedmaster lovers in the office. Okay, so that's Omega, and they're not even the only big brand that's that's released big watches over the past week, week and a half. By the time that this publishes, we'll have seen the batch of of releases from Automar Piget um for the first half of the year. Basically, they release a batch of watches in the first half of the year and the second half of the year. We've seen the first half of the year now. There's a lot of Royal Oak, there's a lot of code 1159. Ben, I know you've taken some time to think about the most exciting watches for you as an enthusiast, a collector of AP. So maybe I'll just turn it over to you there and if you can give me some of your punch list of highlights real quick. Yeah, I mean look, I think the the the big takeaway for me, and this is not a surprise to anybody, is John's watch, right? Like there's a John Mayer, perpetual calendar, Otomar, PG Royal look, which is kind of amazing considering that he he has been very conscious about not kind of alienating the core community by by doing something like this for for so long, which is why, frankly, we did the G Shock, right? Like we did three G Shocks with his name on it. And then he kind of spearheaded the projects that that I did and Elijah and and and Ed. And he said, you know what? Like he over the past few years, and we'll let him speak for himself at some point. But like over the past few years, he's just developed an incredibly close real relationship with Francois and now Laura at AP. And so he basically made a watch. And the watch is incredibly subtle. I would call it kind of like the anti-cactus jack, the anti-Travis Scott. Like the Travis Scott watch was so wild, right? Like a new color ceramic. And like his logo on it, Travis really took, I don't want to say liberties, but like he really made like dramatic adjustments to what the Royal of Perpetual Calendar is and the perpetual after the jumbo is is kind of like you know holy ground within A B. Uh John kind of went the other way and like him being kind of the scholar of AP that he is, the scholar watchbang that he is, he he referenced the the Tuscan dial, like the beautiful kind of blue Tuscanyal that we've seen on the the platinum jumbo and we've seen them on perpetuals here and there. He referenced that but with a new production method. It's called the crystal sky. Crystal sky. But I think you know, John being John and being the design nut that he is, like there's a lot more to the tweaks to this watch than just like a new dial. Um, there's a lot of typeface changes, there are date changes. So if you look at like 31 and one on the perpetual calendar, which has long been something that we've kind of said like just needs to be adjusted. Um just as like somebody that appreciates like thoughtful design. It's a really neat watch. And it's it's white gold, which is you know a favorite metal of mine. I mean my favorite Royal oak of all time happens to be white gold. Um and it's limited to 200 pieces. I think it's just this the standout. You know, and I think you know John is obviously an important figure in the watch collecting world. So him doing a perpetual with a P of all brands, I think you know means means a lot. You know, the the other new releases were more kind of like incremental changes, like some set, like okay, like it's additive for sure, but it's not revelatory. Um, and so you get a new 37 millimeter uh RD3, which is again a favorite watch of mine now with diamond baguette on the dial, which is a neat thing. You get some new dials and uh configurations on the 41mm flying turbulion, which is a non-RD3 turbulent. Uh you get new open work in this new kind of proprietary gold they they killed the stainless steel open work jumbo which is cool so that's kind of done now at last 50th anniversary plus one year it's the fifth anniversary of code uh so they they kind of revamp code in in their own way if you like AP, you're gonna love all this stuff. It's just new variations on stuff that have have been incredibly difficult to get and incredibly uh sought after for the past few years. But I think that the the big narrative here from I think the collector standpoint is the John Mayer perpetual. Sandgold was that proprietary gold that you were reading. Sandgold. Yeah. Which which looks great. I mean it's it's like a gray gold. I mean like gold and gray. Like what you know what what more does a man need? Um so it's uh it it's very neat. And of course like, these watches will be challenging to get. But I think, you know, we'll talk about this later in the episode, but I think like even AP, like the world is returning to normal. And I think that that is is is really true even with AP. I think this is something we' starveted to hear as we start to hear about what's going to be coming from Watches and Wonders, but I think it's going to be an incremental year for a lot of brands, not releasing crazy watches as things have slowed down, as sales channels have have filled up and it'll be more incremental and building on what's working and variations and all of that type of stuff instead of going completely completely bananas. Yep. That makes sense. Well that kind of naturally transitions us into the next thing I wanted to talk about for a few minutes, guys, is the the Morgan Stanley Lux Consult report on the Swiss watch industry. It comes out every year. You all probably see the charts of the top 10 or the top 150 watch brands, Swiss watch brands, I should say. These are all estimates that are produced yearly from the two authors of the report. And as always, the first headline from the report is always Rolex. It's the largest Swiss watch brand. As you all know, its market share continues to be about 30%, 31% of the entire industry. And this year, the report said that for the first time, Rolex crossed an estimated $10 billion in Swiss francs in sales. It says it's the first Swiss wash brand to ever do that. As I said, they maintained about a 30% market share, which if you look at it, is about as much as the next five brands combined. Another fun fact I saw in there is that they have as much, they have more market share than any other luxury brand. So no other luxury brand dominates its category like Rolex. Louis Vuitton perhaps is the closest. They've got about 20% of the bag market. And listen, guys, this is always the headline, Ben. Anything you want to say here about the consolidation of Rolex in the marketplace? It's something we all we all knew was kind of coming and we all experience every day. Anything to add? One question is how do they know?, right Like what is the methodology behind this report? And I know these guys, and I know it's uh, you know, it's Morgan Stanley and and Olivier who I've known forever. Uh, but I I like Rolex is intensely secretive, and I wouldn't put too much stock in those numbers. I I really wouldn't and I'm not I'm not this is not me um e you know calling into question the entire report. I believe all the other numbers. The only one that I'm not sure on is Rolex. Just because they they they take pride in their secrecy. I mean it's CIA like. So it could be even bigger than that, to be clear. Or it could be a little bit smaller than that. So I again I just don't know how real those numbers are, but assuming they are real, it's wild. But yeah, I mean just, you know, look, Rolex is king. Uh they always have been, they always will be. And uh that's where the story ends, I think. Yeah, it is sort of emblematic of consolidation of the top brands, I would say. The other thing that the the report kind of emphasizes is just the kind of continued polarization in the market. So it says that it calls them kind of the the big four of the independent. So in addition to Rolex, Paddock, AP, and Richard Mill, they hold about 44% market share in in total uh of the entire Swiss watch industry, which is up seven or eight percent since before the pandemic. So the big continue to get bigger, I suppose, is kind of the general theme that has been coming out of this report over the over the last few years. Uh and I think that's something that that sounds sounds true to us, right |
| Rich Fordon | ? Yeah, I'd agree. I thought with Rolex it was interesting they quoted a fifteen billion dollar estimated sales in total, like including uh or what they could have gotten to if they're selling all their watches direct to consumer. Um that number to me stood out because like Ben is saying, I know that there's noise in this. If they're going to that level to estimate, you know, potential sales if they were to retail ready or retail the to consumer all of their watches. It tells me that there's more noise in this than even I would assume with the $10 billion number. Um, but reports like this are always interesting and you can draw conclusions from them, but like we're saying the numbers themselves, maybe not putting too much stock is especially when it comes to Rolex. Ye |
| Tony Traina | ah, I think that's right. Directionally interesting, but I, you know, any particular number or figure, kind of a grain of salt for all of the things that you're talking about. But man, if it's not fun to like look at these things almost like you know MBA standings or something like that. Who's up, who's down and all of that type of stuff. It's fascinating. Well and and it kind of brings me to a few more brands I wanted to talk about quickly. So it pointed out Vacheron as the ninth brand to join what we call the Billion Franc Club, I suppose. So it says surpassing a billion dollars in sales for the first time, joining brands like Rolex and Longine, et cetera. The other big, big sort of winners, just long-term success stories that I saw are Hermes and its kind of continued push into watches has has been really successful. And if you look at a sort of a five-year span, you can see them moving up the charts every year. I think they sit at something like 16th or so now in terms of size and Swiss brands. And then the other one is is SWATS, which moved from 22nd to thirteenth, it said on the the swatch the the brand, not the swatch the brand, yeah, on the back of of Moon Swatch. Uh it said estimating two million were sold last year, which is double what uh swatch reported in the first year of the moon Swatch sales, which obviously makes sense and accounted for about 66% of its sales perhaps. So um, you know, they catch a lot of flag for it in our comments at this point, but you know, it's nothing but a huge standout commercial success for for Swatch. Yeah, I mean like I'll I'll speak to both those. Like air Hermes, we sell them, we love them. I mean, I I've written stories over the years, I mean, many years ago, like citing how kind of real they they were and how seriously, they they took watchmaking. So it's not a huge surprise. They also have like the best brand cachet of any brand in the world, and that includes Rolex and Louis Vuitton. Like Hermes is just like peerless when it comes to prestige in terms of what that that brand that brand means. Um and then Swatch like like yeah again you know nerdy commenters on hodinky or instagram can say what they want all day but like the moon swatch and even the the block pond these are unabashed successes like there's just no question about that i again i i always like whenever i do these pods, al Iways think about the texts I get from my my my real friends as in the people that are not in the watch world. And when Moonswatch came out, I probably had ten or fifteen guys and gals that I knew from high school, college, up here, uh you know, upstate where I live, asking me about it, how can they get one? Some of them waited in line. I mean, it was just a fun thing. It was, it was a real like cultural moment. And as I've said before, we haven't had a moment like that since Apple Watch, as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, yeah. |
| Rich Fordon | That's about right. First watch beyond the two products, the Moon Swatch and the Blompon. I mean, I even found myself walking into Swatch boutiques more since those products have come out. And if you you know take a browse through a swatch boutique, if there's one near you, which we don't need to get into that conversation again like we always do. But there are plenty of really interestingly designed watches on the shelves every day. And it's kind of easy to walk in there and spend 200 bucks. You know, like it's very low, low barrier to entry. It's very cool. The designs are interesting. And with more foot traffic stopping by to see if they have a moon swatch, I can imagine that there's only positive externalities with the rest of their collection as well, which is, you know, a success. No matter what you think about those two products on their own, clearly from a business perspective, it was a suc |
| Tony Traina | cess. Yeah. I mean, look, I I think that that brings up a whole nother conversation that we should talk about at some point on this show. It's just like why do brands do limited editions you know like I'm I'm I'm wearing my AP but I've got my G Shock right here. Like why would Casio do a watch with me? Why would they do a watch with well why with me? That's a really good question. Like why would they do with John Mayer at Sheeran? Or or why you know I I I was l lecturing yesterday at at Cornell and I wore our limited edition Vatron on purpose because like that represented a big moment for us commercially and and culturally. And like why would Vatron do that watch? It's because like these moments, which only represent, you know, in that case, a few million bucks in revenue, which is a lot, um, but not that much, uh, now that they're doing a billion plus, why would they do it? It's because it jump starts things. Like it gets people talking about stuff. And you might not be able to get the Hodinki Vash Ryan corn of Vash, but three or four years later, they came out with their own steel corn debash. And like there's a whole like kind of business case to examine why brands do this stuff. And you know, people are so quick to sh on limited editions, but like they work. That has been validated time and time again. And it gives the consumer something that is different because some people just want the whatever, the the black dial omega 3061. And some people want the white dial. And then some people want the hodinky edition. And some people want the Snoopy. And it's like it just allows consumers to differentiate themselves in a way uh that that it also drives their business. Um and so yeah that's a whole nother conversation but well can we double click on it for just a minute since you led the led the horse to water there Ben I mean we or Hodinki has done as as many limited editions as we have over the years uh yeah for for one reason or another and I'm curious what what sort of the most common reason is from from the brand perspective that that they want to partner with uh someone like Hodinky. You want to know why? Who what are the two brands that you just mentioned that that have climbed the most this year? Uh what did I say? I said Ermes and Swatch Group, right? Right. And and guess who collaborated with guess who collaborated with both those brands upwards of five years ago? You know, it's like I was causation. Yeah, exactly. Like I, you know, I seldom do I do I say things like that, but like you know, it's the the the moon the moon swatch in particular, like that is a product of collaborations that came before it. And you know, I'm not saying just ours to be clear, but like, you know, we we sold we did collab before we did G Shock, you know, we always try to do something that's like Hudinky centric but also very approachable every year around the holidays. We started doing swatches many, many years ago. We did a ki a father-son set or mother-daughter set. Um, swatch is cool. There was system 51, so different than this. And Air Mez, we've done two collaborations with. I I wore my my blue dial uh Slim recently. Like these are great watches. And there's no question that, and again, I'm truly not saying us, but sites like ours and collaborations they've done with people like us really do make a difference because it puts them on the radar of people who care. And if you look at both of our AirMaz collaborations, our SWATS collaborations, like those SWATS collaborations are on the wrists of some of the biggest collectors in the world. And they were only buying them because they discovered it through us. Same with the Airmes, the Hermes, two the two airmez products. Um, there's a lot that goes into something like this, and obviously, like they airmez and swatched it a lot of great things along with collaborations with us and others. Um, but there there's no question that like you know the these type of these type of products can really yield great great success down the road it doesn't happen overnight obviously um but um but yeah look i think limited editions can can really work and it goes far beyond that you know whatever day-long hype fest and then sell out um it it it can last for ye |
| Rich Fordon | ars all right i agree with that i think circling back to swatch what i was giving them props for is a limited edition business case to sell other products doesn't always work if you don't have the compelling products in the rest of the catalog. And I think Swatch has that, whereas some brands don't. They can have a limited edition moment, get more eyeballs, and they're not selling a ton of the rest of their collection because maybe there's not compelling product there. But I think Swatch does have compelling product all over the place. I ag |
| Tony Traina | ree. Well, to Ben's point, you have to be ready to capitalize if that increased attention does come your way. It's funny, Bacheron, they pointed to sort of twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen as kind of an inflection point. And I think that's around is that around when the limited edition was? I can't even remember. Uh I'm done kind of giving myself credit for stuff. So uh I I say this as it was but one piece of the puzzle because that's the same year that the overseas was redone. They released the new overseas, the 4500, and they slimmed it down and made it a sleeker design and all of these types of things. They modernized it. They pointed uh to to that time as like when the catalog was really started to become refined. So the Hodinki Limited edition was but one small piece of that puzzle. Such a small piece indeed. Yeah. Indeed, that that was that was the time period. Well, and let's go to the other side of the coin real quick because we'll talk about a brand that what that Hodiki has also done limited editions with that is uh saw declining sales and declined in the charts a little bit, but Tony, impossible. No, one of the things that this that these reports always remind me of is how small the enthusiast community is and how um insubstantial it can be at the end of the day to the larger commercial aspirations of these companies. So two of the brands that that saw declines were Tag Lawyer, said decline like 7%, Tudor around the same, 4%, which is interesting because if you had read the pages of Hodinky for the past year, you would have said, Oh, Tag Warrior had a great year. They released the new glass boxes. Uh, you may have seen my review of the week on the wrist with the Carrera and said that's a pretty good watch. Tutor continues to sort of fire on all cylinders with the fifty-four, but the enthusiast sort of corner of the world is is but |
| Rich Fordon | a small piece of the pie, I think. I thought that there was another interesting point about enthusiast corner being small, which is the fourth sentence of the report referencing success versus headwinds from smart watches and people not wanting to wear watches. When have we had that conversation on Hodinki, in I think it's been probably four or five years since it's not a conversation. Ours right. In our world, it's not apparently in the larger mass market, it is. Um, I was reminded how small my opinions matter to the larger market by the fourth sentence of the report. So they |
| Tony Traina | mean a lot to me, Rich. I want you to know that. Thank you, Ben. Yeah. Yeah. I look I to to be fair, I was kind of reminded I as I said, I I was at Cornell yesterday speaking to a grad class and I would always say like, you know, who here like has an interest in watches at all and in the grad class there was like you know I'd say 20% was like kind of into it. And then I I said the same asked the same question in the undergrad class and like I got like three kind of like sheepish like you know like you know, like I'm embarrassed to to raise my hand type of things. And uh yeah, I mean like it's just it's just a a different world, you know, and it's a small world. But I think on the on the tag thing in particular, we sell tag, as you guys know. We we have done well with with that new glass box in a meaningful way, the career glass box. We are a smaller retailer, you know, relative to some of their bigger boxes for sure. But it also comes down to deliveries, right? Like you can introduce the hottest thing in the world, but if you can't deliver them, then you're not making those sales. And then I think you know, many brands had record years in 22 and 21 and have been trying to anniversary that and that's really hard. Like Rolex can still sell whatever they deliver, and that's going to stay that way. AP, even though it might take a few more calls now than it did before, can still sell everything they they deliver. Langa, I believe, still can as well. Again, might take a few more calls, but but they can do it. But though those other brands that are that are that are that appeal to people like us a little bit more in the tag tutor omega world but like oh man you know I can't swing uh an unexpected seven thousand dollar purchase right now for a carrera and I think that that is a really real thing as we've seen, even though the economy is frankly much better now than it was 18 months ago, like the world is just slightly less confident, I think, in in making these purchases, because we've seen the thing that we all knew on at Hodinki, which is like what goes up must come down at least a little. And the the secondary prices of these watches have have softened a little bit. And so I think people are just slightly less uh less confident in in non kind of tier one purchases. We're excited that Hodinki Radio is back, and our return is thanks in part to this week's sponsor, Accutron, and its new DNA Casino Collection. Driven by the world's first electrostatic energy movement, the new Acutron DNA Casino Collection fuses vibrant colors with futuristic design. The four bold new colors, each limited to 100 pieces, are inspired by the bright lights of Las Vegas. The DNA is an update of Accutron's original icon, the Space View, the watch known for its revolutionary tuning fork movement. The DNA updates the Acutron SpaceView for the modern era with a 45mm stainless steel case and integrated rubber strap. Since introducing the world's first fully electronic watch in 1960, Accutron has continued to push the boundaries of timekeeping. The Accutron DNA Casino Collection synthesizes bold colors, innovative technology, and a retro-futuristic design to make a bold statement. Accutron. It's not a timepiece, it's a conversation piece. Check out the new DNA Casino collection on AccutronWatch.com or the new Citizen Flagship Store in New York. A big thanks to Accutron for its support, and now back to the show. Well, maybe we can leave the business corner discussion with well, our own professor Klymer, I suppose, now that you're giving lectures at an Ivy League University. We can leave the discussion there for now. Uh, there's one sort of fun, maybe five-minute discussion I wanted to have with you guys. Uh it's it's less numbers driven, and hopefully you'll indulge me here and it'll be a little bit fun. But the Oscars will have taken place between us recording and publishing this. So I thought it'd be fun. This is something I I actually think about with some frequency is a story in the watch world that would make for a good Hollywood film. Uh hopefully something you guys have given a little bit of thought too based on my prompts, but maybe we can give sort of uh uh recommendations as to Hollywood store a story that we think might make for an actually good Oscar worthy hopefully even film if you get the right right casting and director. Uh any of you want to go first? I've got an idea, but Rich, you wanna lead the way |
| Rich Fordon | ? Uh sure. I do have an idea, which I ran by Tony, which seemed acceptable for the podcast, so we'll see. Um I think the story of Jacob the Jeweler is interesting for a movie. Although I'm not an expert on the product, nor am I an expert on the cultural relevancy of the story of Jacob. Um I think there's a lot to dig in there and a screenwriter and director could, you know, go any which direction from 47th Street to an established brand and a court case along the way involving conspiracy and and so on. So I think there's a lot to dig into there. Um, but I'm not the guy to dig into it. Maybe maybe I need to do a little bit of reading, um, which I will omit, but Ye |
| Tony Traina | ah, I mean you you read Malaika's story on Jacob, obviously. I did. Yeah. That I mean that's a good place to start. And she she, you know, graciously left out some of the more nefarious kind of nuggets, I guess. But yeah, the Jac the Jacob story is amazing. If you've ever met him, he is like, I mean, you won't be surprised if you do this, but like he's the most charming guy you could possibly imagine, right? Like he's just he's incredible. He's he's absolutely incredible. Um so yeah he that's |
| Rich Fordon | that's a good one Rich. Well done. I think a part of a good movie too is like a main character who is extremely well dressed in his uh in his time. I I love the photos of Jacob coming out of the 90s of like him in a big double breasted suit. Like every time it makes me smile. And the cameos would be great, obviously, you know, celebrities rolling through. So um, yeah, Tony, go ahead. What do you got? You actually think about this. So the one that I had that |
| Tony Traina | was kind of similar to to this in Eras is kind of the rise and fall of Frank Mueller, kind of the original uh indie watchmaker, rock star, very close to all kinds of celebrities. You could get, we've talked about Elton John, but all kinds of celebrity potential cameos as well. And then you kind of have the same kind of fallout that happened in the early 2000s, flew a little bit too close to the sun, uh all kinds of alleged criminal activity. Um you get you get accusations of of drugs and a falling out with a business partner and he, you know, eventually leaves the company that has his name on the door uh when he's really at the height of his powers. And I think it would be uh an amazing story as well. Ben, what do you have for us? Um it's a little bit different. I think this would be more like a dock. Um, and that would be the story of the the Lenin twenty four ninety nine. You know, that story has a lot to it. You know, and we haven't really heard kind of the last of it and it's still kind of ongoing. I think that one could be really compelling. Um, I think there are other stories about fake watches or watches that have been faked, uh, that could be really neat. You know, I I think like if you if you take and follow the life of like uh a Senza Luna or you know, some obscure Patek like high high-end Patek filial Rolex. Um, that there's the potential for some really interesting storytelling there because there's just so many dynamic uh characters there. But the the the Lenin one because of of obviously the the the celebrity nature of it I and and like the modernity of it, like the fact that it's like still ongoing present day, I think could could do really well. I think that's the one that could actually happen as well. I think it will likely appear at auction one day. Who knows if that's in a year or 25 years? But I think it might, and I think it will do extremely well. And people always love Beatles related content. So I think there's like a strong possibility that that this one could actually happen at some point. And it's got twists and turns over so you know, dozens of years really. And there's all kinds of interesting things. You know, I wrote kind of the story six months ago when when Arthur Touchot, a former former Hodinki employee, kind of posted about the court case. And I wrote the story for us that dug into a little bit more detail about what had happened with the watch over the past 40 years. And you know, I've gotten texts and emails and stuff about it since then that from Yoko? Yeah. Uh yeah, from from people like Yoko Ono, of course, and and others that the whole story is still not out there. So so perhaps one day, perhaps one day it'll be Hollywoodified. The next thing I think we're going to talk about for the bulk and the remainder of our conversation is kind of the opposite of something that we've talked about recently on podcast episodes. You know, Ben, last time you and Melicah and I chatted, we talked about watches that are hot in the market, honestly, these small watches, jewelry watches, Cartier, et cetera, things that people are really excited about in the market, things that sell quickly. Um today we're going to talk about the opposite. We're going to talk about brands, watchmakers that seem to be underappreciated by the market, especially brands that may or may not perform well in the secondary market. We're going to talk about why that might be the case. If there's room for them to grow. And I think we're gonna start here, guys. What do you think is the brand that you know to to bring people behind the scenes a little bit, we have a group chat with us and a few other employees here at Hoodinky that we talk about watch brands every once in a while. And you know the brand that comes up probably the most often on this group chat, guys? What's that? It's Laurent Ferrier. Something you wouldn't think about, right? They make a few hundred watches a year. Yeah. Um and you can go back to 2010 Hodinky days when Hodinkie was just starting out, Laurent Ferrier was just starting out as well. And you can find quotes of of Ben Klymer himself calling Laurent Ferrier, uh, you know, making perhaps the finest automatic movements in the world when they first came out with those the micro rotor and then kind of for the record like I can I can't think of a better automatic wash or like a more interesting fine finish finely finished automatic wash than them. But go well let's just start there. Let's just start there Ben because uh the brand has been around for 15 years now or something like that obviously Laurent Ferrier is a legendary watchmaker the story of him is also like legendary uh for those who don't know I guess I'll just say it briefly, but he kind of used to be just a semi-professional race car driver. Uh he was what third second or third place at Le Mans and Paul Newman was also on the podium with him in 1979. So, you know, for people who don't know, he's kind of this legendary cool guy and he always will be. And after that, he spent four decades basically at at paddock as a watchmaker there before stepping out and starting a brand with his own name on it. And I know Ben it's a a brand that you have always loved. Uh, and I want to talk about uh, you know, first of all, let's just start there. I mean, you you called it and still said it is one of the best, if not the best, automatic movement in the world. Like just let's unpack that statement itself for a minute. Yeah, I I think I I I feel like every time I talk to you, Tony, I feel like older and older because I'm always like, you don't like you don't remember like 10 years ago, it was like the hottest in the world. But like really, you know, somebody asked me, it may have been you, somebody asked me when the last time I was like really excited about a new watch. And I think back in those early days of like 2010, 11, 12, like kind of like when I was really, really starting to hit my stride in terms of like understanding watches and having the cultural relevancy to like have access to stuff and whatever. And seeing the Laurent Ferrier Turbillon and like a hidden turbillon, it you know, it was described as a Laurent Ferrier Turbine, which it was, it was designed by them, but BNB, which is now Le Fabrique Dutton, which is now Louis Vuitton, was making it for them. And that's okay. Like his son works there or worked there. Um it was just spectacular. I mean just like a a revelation of what I thought a Swiss watch should be, which was elegant. It was, you know, look almost like a 25-26. A lot of them had enamel dials, but on you flip it over, you have this insanely finely finished hand-wound turbulent. And of course, the price was like 180 Swiss and like, you know, just crazy stuff. So it never really like, I was in love with it, but I could never conceive of only one and then two years later they came out with this micro rotor that was the same watch but without a turbon but instead a self-winding movement and this had a natural escape which like, you know I,'m not sure how familiar our our audience is at scale with what like that means, but like this is not a normal watch. A natural escapement is like not an easy thing to do. And when Nick Manusos used to write for us, who's a who's now at the HSNY was and a still is a he is an actual watchmaker and very technical guy. I said between Dufour, Roger Smith and Laurent Ferrier, who do you think is the greatest watchmaker of this? And he goes, it's not even close. It's Laurent Ferrier because they invented an escapement or they recreated an escapement. And you know, you can say, you know, Roger has has worked on the coaxial, that was a George Daniels thing. Dufour has done some incredible things, the Grand Sonnery wristwatch and the duality, of course, but to to be figured out a way to engineer and produce a natural escapement that looks like that and at scale is was really remarkable. And they were just so cool. And I remember writing those early stories saying, like, this is what Patek should be making. And I still think this is that they are kind of what Patek should be making. Because if you, I mean, the Calatrava caliber has gotten a lot better over the past two years. But in 2010 to 2013, 2014, you're talking like tiny little movements that were basically from the like the mid-70s in their Cala Travas selling for $25,000. The LF was double that. The LF was say $40,000. But it was, it was so much better and so much more finely finished and so just wonderful on the wrist, and like everything that I thought a high-end Swiss spot should be in one brand, plus the motorsport thing, plus the connection to Patek, etc. And it was just wonderful. And like I remember William Rohr, William Asina, bought the first prototype uh Galay self-winding watch at OnlyWatch, and he got it, it was a steel watch, and I bought mine, and all of a sudden, like all the right, you know, the the air quotes right guys were buying them. And I was like, how could this fail? You know, how could it fail? And then it to be clear, it hasn't failed, but it has not, it has not succeeded in the way that we that I thought it would. I'll say that. Maybe we can talk about what you mean by that. Uh what's happened over the past few years, and maybe this is where Rich, our esteemed client advisor, can help out a little bit, but just talk about what the market for LaRont Ferrier is like nowadays and uh where there is or isn't demand for for his watches or their watches |
| Rich Fordon | . Yeah, I think I think I can continue what Ben was talking about there and say at least let's take a step back first. Tony and I have the same sort of frame of reference for Laurent Ferry, I think. Um, in though at that time of 2010 to 2012, I was a consumer of watch media, certainly not a consumer of watches at this level or involved in watches professionally or even on the side or whatever you want to say. But I remember Is that because you were in high school or is that uh I think that would have been high school, yes. Okay, just making sure. On the baseball diamond, as we discussed, yeah. On my way to be a division one athlete, as as I was. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know, I remember seeing those photos on Hodinki and elsewhere and just thinking my perception at that time was that everybody cared about this. And I can tell you now in 2024, few people care about it. So I want to throw a question back to Ben before I go further and ask, at that time, was it just you, Nick Manusos and William Messina that cared, or was there really a |
| Tony Traina | mass market appeal to this thing? No, never mass market. But I mean, like they were making 80 watches a year, so the the intent was never to be mass market. But I can tell you that like I've got a group of friends that are not you know, not known publicly uh in the New York area that are all serious collectors that have owned Dufors and that you know have uh have you know were were responsible for the the original observator series from from Kyrie and like really like hardcore watch nerds and every one of them had Laurent Ferriers like whether it was a turbine whether it was the GMT whether it was the the the automatic. I mean they all had them and they were all like, wow, that this is like a great everyday uh wash if you're talking about the the the the self-winding one. And we all believe that it could really be the the next thing. I posted my my original unique watch or was unique watch um on Instagram the other day and I got a lot of people saying like hey I just bought one I love this thing so like people do want them and they are buying them at retail but like the secondary market is not is not in its favor right now. I can I can tell you that. And I think like that's probably like why Tony brought this up because like if you look at Roger Smith at Dufour, at Retchep, at Kerry, whoever, all all these high-end Jorn, of course, all these guys that were like contemporaries of Laurent Ferrier as a brand, those guys experienced just enormous growth over the past five years, four years. And LF kind of feels like it was it was |
| Rich Fordon | left out on on the side. I can ask the question directly then, 'cause you brought it up a little bit there, but you mentioned the watch that you had was unique at one time and now it's not you can pull the punch if you want, but is there a story of mismanagement there that is tied to not only your watch, but like is it was there a little bit too much going on on the bespoke order process and and does that contribute to where the brand is today? I think |
| Tony Traina | life is hard and life is complex and running a business is hard. And that coming, that's coming for me. And it's when when I had my watch made, there were three steel cases. There was the one that William bought, which was the prototype, sold publicly at auction, right? There was one on the wrist of the then CEO and there was a third case. And I was visiting them and I said, Hey, I love this thing. Like I might need some payment terms, but like, can I have the third case? And they were like, All right, like and I called William because he's my friend, said, Hey, is it cool if I do the third case? He's like, Yeah, whatever. And I I designed a dial or helped design a dial in what is absolutely hodinky gray, like the same color as everything we do to this day, with brigade numerals. I I left the LF hands because I thought that was really important. The back of the watch is inscribed LF for BC, like they made it for me. And uh and um they made it for me. And I was just absolutely smitten with completely in love with it, still on it to this day. And then all of a sudden, I saw another one in the market. And then I saw another one in the market. And then I saw another one in the market. Including like some of them ended up with friends. Eric Ku had one for a while. My friend Dusik had one for a while. Um and even when I posted this watch on Instagram the other day, someone' likes, hey, I just caught that watch and again like i don't i don't really care and it wasn't like you know it's never we didn't sign a contract saying like you can't make this again and like whatever it's great dial with brigade rules it's like i invented things um but you know it's that type of stuff that just like erodes erodes some i don't want to say trust because it's not about trust but just like good feeling with a brand and to be clear we have done three collaborations with lf and all of them successful i i wear the travel time often and i wear a white gold one often as well. Uh three different movements in those. So like I still believe in that brand and like the management has changed several times since that. That was an unfortunate situation, but not life-changing. And I we still work with them. Um, and I think there's also other things, you know, they're they use distributors in places where they didn't need to use distributors. There's a lot of stuff that they could have done better, I think. But again, like everything's in hindsight and selling a $50,000 time only watch if you're not to tech Philippe in the year 2020 or 2014 was fing hard. You know, so like who am I to say? Like you can't like if somebody likes this watch and they're gonna pay you that much money for it, you're really gonna say no? Like, of course they're gonna say yes, you know, and like that's what that's why there's so many weird Jorns out there. And that's why like you know the the the caliber 89s in in all the different metals are weird and like the the uh the graves right like the graves is a completely custom watch. They they did it because they had to, you know, not necessarily because they wanted to. Uh and that's that's okay. Um and so I don't, you know, I don't have animosity towards towards the wrong fairy in any way. And I would buy another one to this day. Um, but there's no question that like things didn't go the way we thought they would. And that's because I think they overproduced, they had distributors and retailers that were discounting when they didn't need to, right? And I think uh the world just kind of evolved around them. You know, when you see Roger and I mean Jorn. I mean like think think about Jorn. And granted there's like some exterior forces there and we all know that. But like Jorn we're selling for at retail 50 cents on the dollar, like from the store. As crazy as that is, like you could go in and negotiate on a CB or on a resonance or whatever. And so Jorn and uh and Laura Ferry were in the exact same spot seven years ago and look where they are now. And you know again, I can't Joran has bigger investors and you know bigger partners, et cetera, and a greater history. And they really do make everything that they say they do. Um but yeah, it's it's it's a shame. I still think like one day when Hodinki's said and done or I'm, you know, whatever, I make that, you know, tons of money that everybody thinks I already have, which I do not, I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna buy a lot of Ferrier and I'm gonna I'm gonna make it it what could be because like that this still has some of the best potential of any brand out there in my opinion. Let's play this Monday morning quarterback game for just a a second longer. I mean let's say that day comes, Ben, but what do you do? Maybe it is from a modern product perspective, or maybe it is from a supporting the secondary market perspective, but what would you do differently to sort of support the development and perception of the brand among collectors? Um, and, you know, if you can maybe I'm curious, like this doesn't have to be a Laurent Ferrier specific discussion, but I'm curious, you know, there are presumably other brands in this category uh as well. And I'm wondering like what can be done to sort of support the the collector market for for brands like that. It's I mean look the the the two best examples of it and they're both still ongoing is is obviously Jorn uh and Debathu. What what Watchboxer of 1916 is now doing with them is like they they bought the company, they cleaned up the product, they cleaned up the market as in like they supported the the stuff at auction. And like people knew that, and it doesn't matter, right? I mean, like you're still getting the results. Um and Jorn, obviously the same thing, and 1916 was involved with that as well. Uh it's it's it's about cleaning up the market and and projecting confidence and success to to clients because, like, as I say often, and I certainly said yesterday up at Cornell is like nobody really needs a $50,000 watch that tells time. You know, it's like a $2,000 watch that's crazy. $50,000 is absurd. You know, and that's what we're talking about here. So you really want to, you want to, to, to elevate the brand from like, hey, will you please buy this thing to like you should feel lucky to be allocated one of these things. And that's what LaRon Ferrier has always struggled with. At times they've done it well, they did collaborations with us that were really hot, collaborations with Way and Revolution that were pretty hot. And you know, occasionally here and there, they did it with some retailers that were pretty strong. And then their own watches. Um, but they they made too many, and their distributors and retailers never respected the brand in the way that they should have because they they worked with people that were from a different era of watch retailing. You know, every watch was at discount to for some of these guys for for so long, you know? And e even pet tech. And so I think it's just about like updating the the the model and your partners with to to remain relevant and remain at the forefront of stuff. So but I mean cleaning up the market, which is insanely expensive to be clear. Uh and and then doing the product that that should be done the right way. And also the the challenge and I love Laurent Ferrier, the man, he's not a watchmaker, right? Like he's not he he couldn't assemble. I mean, he could assemble a watch, but he can't design a watch from a caliber perspective. Neither can Max Booser, neither can I, for that matter. Like a you know, there's some good people out there that can't do that. That's okay. But I think you know, when you get down to it, like FP Jorn is an insane watchmaker. Denis at Debatun is also an insane watchmaker. And LF has his son is a watchmaker, as far as I know um but you know it's not the same like you you sit down with Carly Vutilan and or Dufour and Roger and you're like these guys are like walking encyclopedians and Laurent Ferry is not necessarily that, but he has a lot of other talents, just like Max Booster has a lot of other talents, you know. And so it's it's just, you know, Max was able to sell a dream and sell himself and sell innovative, thoughtful, cool design. And I think there was this perception that LF really was like a DuFour like watchmaker. And he's not. And that's okay. But I just think it's important to know what you're you're you're kind of getting into there. Yeah, that's an interesting point. And I think one of the things that's happened with the way the indie market has developed is we treat these things as whether or not they are, I think we treat them as art and we treat the the guys that create them as living artists and we treat the the watchmaking as the art. And there's a perception, real or not, if you're not a watchmaker, that uh perhaps there's something missing there. There are all kinds of different ways to to get around it. You you alluded to MBNF, which is one great way to do it, right? It's so design driven and cool in a totally different way, but man, that stuff is like really avant-garde. So um you really have to figure out your lane if if you're not a true sort of watchmaker's watchmaker, you know? Yeah. I mean what what what I mean now now that I'm actually thinking about it, like if if I had the money and had control of Laurent Ferrier, like I would go out and find a Retchet style watchmaker or you know, somebody that, you know, and obviously not Rechep because he's doing just fine, but somebody that is young and hungry and has ideas and bring them under the fold. And I think what we're seeing now, and we see this frankly with watch media and everything, is you get a lot of like a lot of young, hungry guys, and they all want to go it alone. And sometimes that works, and we've seen it fail spectacularly as well. Um, but you know, it's it's it's challenging to bring somebody in under like an existing confine, especially in the manufacturing side. If you're a talented watchmaker, you want to be Ret Shep Rochepi, you want to be Raul Paj, you want to be, you know, you want your name on the dial. And um that's the challenge with Laurent Ferrier. As I said, he has a son named Christian, who's a great guy, who, you know, could lead it. But I think, you know, the other thing also is like it's cash man. You know, like just finding somebody to, you know, it's not easy to make money selling watches. Although, you know, George Kern and and Jean-Claude Beaver and Reynolds, like they've figured out a Francois, they figured out a way to do it. But like we're talking the minority here, not the majority. Are there any other brands before we kind of close out this discussion, are there other brands or watchmakers that fall into this category that we've been talking about of I mean the horlogical chops are there. You talked about the torbillone and then the micro rotor and things that they've developed since then that continue to be really, really interesting, right? I mean the natural escapement, that's nothing. That dates back to the days of Brigade. Are there other brands that fall into this category of having the horological fundamentals, but the market for one reason or another does not sort of appreciate them right now. There's two versions of Langa, the Langa story. There is modern langa at retail, which I'm told is doing still exceptionally well, like record setting months, year over year, like I'm I'm quite sure that year over year for 24, they're they're anniversarying and exceeding. So like they're literally having their best months ever at retail. What I refer to with Longa is I don't understand, and this is like you know the old guy screaming on the porch again. There there are watches that when I was coming up in the 2013s, 2014s with Paul Bouteros and the Weenies, if you even know what that is, that's watch enthusiast of New York. That was like the first like Red Bar group. But I'm talking like we used to go to like nice restaurants and like had like, you know, yeah at Haldeman come in and like tell us about his turbulence and stuff it was incredibly nerdy. Back then, the the most celebrated high-end watches from a big brand were early longas. So Port-Lamarie Turbillon was it. The original Phantom Zeitwork, the Platinum Lumen Zitwork was it. I mean, it was as cool as it got. Uh, the handwork's good stuff, like the really, really special early, early stuff. The close case back, they're, you know, less so the early datagraph, which I know is really hot now, but I mean they had a lot of love. Uh and what I don't understand, I guess, is with all these watches from the early 90s being so hot with with guys like you, with the the young'un, how have those fallen by the wayside? And like, you know, I I can give an example, because in in the text group I I was kind of going on a rant the other day. Right now, there are two platinum portal marine turbines for sale on the market. And they've been for sale because I've been in touch with the sellers because it's a watch I've always wanted. They've been for sale for months. And they're online. It's not like they're behind the scenes or anything like that. There are also at least two, maybe three, platinum phantom lumen sight works on the market. And I'm not talking honey gold, which the the honey gold now trades for more than the platinum. I just don't understand why. And closed case pack longas, which I've had a bunch of. I have one now, like they're just amazing watches and super important. I don't know why these watches aren't hotter or more talked about than than they are. And our our our good friend Tantan, who who works at the company with us here, he's like Mr. Langa. He knows more about Longa than anybody I know these days, but he's young. And I think there's just a generational divide between the guys like me. He's probably 15 years younger than me, if not more. And he's just like, I don't, I don't know about this. Like I don't know why I should spend four hundred grand if I had it on a on a platinum Portland Marine turpion, which is I think I think the real issue here is like the pricing of yesterday just hasn't kept up with today. And so I think like the $400,000 plus price point for the plant in Portland Marie, which is what they've traded for historically when they come up and they go fast, is now just not reality. There are other langas out there, maybe for more modern stuff that might hit those prices. But I think just there's not enough people that care about those watches |
| Rich Fordon | at that at those price points. I think from the market today perspective, it's like, at least in my opinion, and Benny can tell me I'm wrong, but pre-on manga has always had issues. It's always sort of underperformed. I I know these very, very flagship and like the most collectible models have been there in the past, and and maybe we're seeing a lot of inventory in those models right now, and it seems like they're not moving anymore. But core collection or or non-special, and not to say the watches aren't special, but regular Langa pre-owned has always been an issue. And it it was alleviated a little bit, like the datagraph thing happened. And I'll I'll correct you. Early data graphs are not hot right now. Um they're down, they're down probably thirty percent since a year and a a halfgo. Oh okay, got it. They peaked and and I thought that that was going to start a trend of these regular production langas, at least the important ones, close case packs, early longa ones, this kind of stuff gathering momentum for what I see is the first time. You can tell me I'm wrong, but I don't think any of that stuff is have ever traded massively over retail to a point where it is a thing. Oh well I mean look, these are different things, right? I |
| Tony Traina | mean like retail for the like a platinum Longa One, I'm sorry, platinum Burlim Read in 1994 was probably 80 grand. So it it certainly above retail for sure, like many times retail, but we're talking 30 years ago, you know? And so I think like I'm I'm talking about slightly different things. I think like early series data graphs, there are a bunch of them. But the the Portland Turbillon, which to me is like it's the best turbion ever made, as far as I'm concerned, for a wristwatch. I don't know how that has fallen out of favor to the point where two of them can just sit on Chrono 24. Uh I th I think that's my point. It's like I agreed, like the secondary market of core collection long has always been a challenge. It's gotten a lot better, no, like a lot better. Um, but uh this is really more like as as a collector of like really I try to collect really special things. It's just alarming to me because again, if I'm gonna break the bank on a watch, like the poor limit trivia would be right up there and i just i'm not in that mindset right now but i just don't get how these are just sitting there i really don't and i think it's also like i i know one of the sellers of one of these watches and he bought the watch new right so he bought the watch in 1996 he's in his i would guess early 70s late 60s like he doesn't need the money and he's probably thinking of when he was really into watches 10 years ago these were the holy grail and so he's not going to accept anything less than you know what he believes to be the price. And that that's long the challenge with with these kind of like generational shift of of collect |
| Rich Fordon | ing. So reference our colleague Tan Tan again, because this is a great point that he made, which I will not pass off off as my own but the move of modern la longa distribution to their own boutiques possibly has created a lot of disgruntled former buyers at retailers, which means a lot more regular langas or even special longas on the market today. And you can see that if you go to any of the sites which you would go to shop Langa, there is a lot of pre-owned inventory out there. And while we're talking about different sections of Langas pre-owned market, I think having a lot of regular or even somewhat special langas available for sale and a perceived slow market hurts things like a PLM that you |
| Tony Traina | 're talking about. The one thing I'll say is like this year is an anniversary year for Longa, and like people care about that stuff. And it it's you know it's the greatest store it's the greatest brand creation story in watch main of the past 30 years as far as I'm concerned like this is a real brand this is not Flippe Dufour or Jorn who's making you know a few watches a year like this this is a real brand, and they've made like you know over 75 calibers in the last 30 years. I mean, it's just crazy numbers. I think there's a chance that Watches and Wonders, the big trade show coming up in a month, actually. Wow, it's actually just a month away. I think could change things. And I don't know what they're showing. And I mean that sincerely, but I'm I'm told it's pretty, pretty good. And I think like, you know, Longa has a way of exciting real watch nerds in a way that almost no other brand does. So I'm I'm optimistic. I really am. But you know, the to those two sellers of platinum poorly marie turbions out there like give me a call if you want to cut your price in half you know like I think these watches are amazing and I really want one but I just like I'm scared that like I'm seemingly the only guy who thinks these are like the right prices for the for these watches. You and the Weenies. Me and the Weenies, yeah. Look it up. I don't even know if it's I don't know there's any record of the Weenies ever existing, but it was a great group. Shout out to Paul Boutros and the Weenies. Perhaps we'll leave the discussion there for today, but I think it was somewhat enlightening, somewhat interesting. Talking about a different segment of the Markment. Yeah, yeah, we we haven't discussed for at least on this iteration of the Hoden podcast. Uh so thanks to Rich Fordin, thanks to Ben Climber, thanks to our editor Vic Automanelli, and thank you all for listening. We'll be back with another episode of Hodinky Radio next week. |