What Watch Brands Get Right (And Wrong) About Proportions¶
Published on Wed, 6 Mar 2024 17:55:00 +0000
We finish with a wish list of well-proportioned watches we'd like to see from brands.
Synopsis¶
In this episode of Hodinkee Radio, host Tony Traina is joined by managing editor Danny Milton and fashion editor Meleica Crawford to discuss watch proportions and the need for greater size diversity in the watch industry. The conversation stems from Meleica's recent article "The Plea for Proportionality," which argues that watch brands need to better acknowledge what collectors and enthusiasts actually want to wear, rather than continuing to produce limited size ranges that don't serve the full spectrum of potential customers.
The discussion touches on several key themes: the historical trend toward larger watches and how it has left many enthusiasts seeking smaller or mid-sized options underserved; the frustration that brands often differentiate smaller watches with inferior dial designs or features rather than simply scaling down popular models; and the missed opportunity for brands to expand their customer base, particularly among women, by offering thoughtfully designed watches across the size spectrum. The hosts cite positive examples like Tudor's Black Bay line (which offers 54mm, 58mm, and 41mm variants that each feel distinct but equally considered), Audemars Piguet's diverse Royal Oak sizing, and Vacheron Constantin's 35mm Overseas that maintains the same design language as its larger sibling.
Danny shares insights from the Dune 2 premiere and Hamilton's involvement in the film, while the group also discusses vintage Chopard's surprisingly sophisticated jewelry-watch designs from the 1970s-90s. Throughout the episode, the hosts emphasize that they're not advocating for small watches exclusively, but rather for intentional design across small, medium, and large sizes—allowing watches to be truly unisex by virtue of offering genuine choice. They conclude by imagining wish-list pieces like a 37mm Rolex Submariner, a 38mm Omega Seamaster 300, and a smaller Patek Philippe Aquanaut that would exemplify this philosophy of proportional design for all wearers.
Links¶
Transcript¶
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| Tony Traina | This episode of Hodinki Radio is brought to you by Accutron in the new DNA Casino collection. With 100 pieces made in four vibrant colors, the Accutron DNA Casino perfectly fuses futuristic watchmaking and bold design. Stay tuned later in the show for more on the brand's new collection, or visit AcutronWatch.com for all the details. Welcome back to Hodinky Radio. I'm editor Tony Traina. Today I've got managing editor Danny Milton with me. Danny, how are you doing today? Hey Tony. Doing well. How about you? I'm good. Thanks for asking. No one ever asks how the host is doing. Glad to be here for you. I've also got fashion editor Meleica Crawford. Melica, how are you doing today? I asked you how you well last time I was on, Tony. It's true. It's short memory trainer over here. Yeah, the world's smallest violin for me. Alright. Well listen guys, today we're going to be talking about watch proportions. What watch brands are getting right and what we want to see more of. We're using an article by our own fashion editor Meleica here titled The Plea for Proportionality that we published a couple of weeks ago as a jumping off point for our discussion. To me, Melica's article is actually making the simple point that brands need to look at what collectors, enthusiasts are really wearing and asking for, and offer more watches in more sizes. Of course, the supposed trend to smaller watches has been a big point of discussion the past couple of years, but Malika's making a bigger point than just that brands should start making more watches in the 33 to 37mm range. While some smaller and mid-sized releases have garnered headlines, there's evidence that, at large, average watch sizes haven't actually gotten much smaller, though options have certainly increased the past couple of years. In fact, as Melika and I discussed with Ben just a couple of weeks ago, this plea for proportionality is actually something that I'd argue dates back to the early days of Hodinki. When Hodinki started, luxury watches were all about big and complicated. Hodinki started by focusing on smaller, wearable, heritage-inspired, often vintage watches. Nowadays, tastes are much broader than ever before, and that's creating a new demand on brands to recognize that good things can come in small, medium, and large packages. So today, Melika and Danny and I are going to talk about proportions. Before that though, we've got some catching up to do. I'm going to start with Danny, who is fresh off of the red carpet in New York for the premiere of Dune 2 uh with Timothy Chamelet, Zendaya, and and others? Danny, how was the how was that? Yeah, I think it's Zendaya and Chalamet, but we'll give you a pass on both, Tony. We'll give you a pass. Well, listen, apologies to Mr. Um, what did I say? Apologies to Mr. Timothy. And Danny, give me the give me the movie review, give me the watch spotting from Dune Two, whatever you'd like |
| Danny Milton | . So I met a lot of movie review folks at this red carpet, and I know we're still in pre spoiler review embargo mode. So, my review will be spoiler-reef, but I would just tell anybody who's into Dune and enjoyed the first film to rush to the theater to see this movie. It's um pretty remarkable piece of cinema for a sci-fi film, and I I tremendously enjoyed it. Uh yeah, I was in New York for the New York premiere, which was the final premiere in a string of global premiers. So I think the cast of that movie sat through a two-hour and twenty-minute film like six times. Didn't they sometimes leave and like go to dinner? Well, I think, but in this case, I'm pretty sure they all just sat there. Because this, and I'll tell you why. This was the only premiere with an after party that I'm aware of. So spoiler alert on that. And it was uh the after party was cool as well. They had it at the uh the natural history museum and um it was a very much just like a bunch of the actors just mixing it up with uh a lot of influencers, TikTokers and watch media. So, you know, standard fair. Um, but but very cool. And the red carpet was more of like a sandy orange |
| Tony Traina | carpet. Oh, naturally, naturally. Well, listen, we know Hamilton is kind of known for placing things in cinema nowadays. Anything cool from Dune that you want to discuss that's watch related |
| Danny Milton | ? I mean, absolutely. I mean, look, I wrote the piece uh maybe a week ago about um how Hamilton in full Hamilton fashion. Worked on the film uh both from the sense of making an on-screen prop, which was a wrist device worn by the characters on screen, although uh you can see it in the movie and it's quite visible. Um, we don't know why it's there or what it does, um, which I'd be curious to know if there's a third film. Um, and then they also made two uh limited edition Ventura models inspired by that wrist device. One of which is um to my understanding a brand new digital technology for Hamilton. So it has the display in like a vertical instrumentation of the time with a light that lights up when you press a button in the crown and it actually strobes, sort of gets to its brightest point and then flickers out in a really cool way. So a very cool watch, an even cooler movie, and it's just nice to see Hamilton continue to be involved in the movies. And just so the audience is clear, Hamilton doesn't do product placement. They don't pay to have their watches on the screen. They actually have a very organic affiliation with movies. So it's just cool to see that continue |
| Tony Traina | . Well there you have it everyone. Run. Don't walk to see Dune Two whenever it comes to theaters near you. I think it will have opened by the time this publishes. So definitely |
| Danny Milton | , because it opens uh February February 29th is the opening. So if we're watching this next week, March something, the movie will be open |
| Meleica Crawford | . Well, Meleica, you and I haven't been on any red carpets lately. I don't think can I can I just use this opportunity to shout out Zendaya's outfit at the LA premiere, which was an archive mu glare outfit that was sort of like robot wear. Did you mean Zendaya at the London Dune premiere? Uh maybe it was London, but she's wearing a nice, she's wearing an archival mu glare. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's crazy. Isn't it so cool? You probably think it's trash, but I love No, it's called like the cyborg or something crazy. Yeah, it's like archive like 1995 or something. I don't even care if you don't like fashion, you need to go see this. It's a good outfit. Uh Anya Taylor Joy was wearing a very weird outfit, but she was also wearing a JLC. Yeah, she was wearing like a tiny |
| Tony Traina | little caliber 101. Uh which was very cool. Very cool. Like the Queen. One of the new segments we've been doing on the new iteration of Hodinky Radio is collecting advice. We usually throw it in at the end of the show. We're not going to do it today. There's no time. We've got so many things to talk about, but you published an article that I thought was kind of fun the other day about vintage shopar that I thought we could just talk about for just a few minutes. Kind of a collecting advice in a way for people that are looking for weird and crazy showpards, bracelets, bangles, dual time zones, quadruple time zones, all kinds of weird things. I think you were using Elton John as kind of the jumping off point to to talk about Chopard. But anything exciting about this era of shopard or why you decided to even write about that for a little bit |
| Meleica Crawford | ? Um so it sort of spans many eras. And I think Chopard is definitely a brand that does not get as much love as it deserves, whether it be modern shepherd or vintage. And I I was at the Elton preview with you and I'd already seen this Imperial chronograph come up at auction before, like different iterations of it, but the fully yellow gold gem set with the sapphires, I'd seen it come up. In fact, Zoe Abelson, who's a dealer and uh she's been on Hodinky before, we like send pictures to each other of this watch, like you know, whenever it pops up. So when I saw it in real life, I was so like I felt that excitement, like that full body rush whenever I see something that I love and I just want to try it on and touch it and it's all shiny and perfect to me. And I went home and I sort of did this deep dive that lasted, I'm not kidding, like multiple hours, me on the internet, countless cups of tea. Um yes, English people drink tea. And uh I came across all these weird like 70s, 90s, 80s that span across every single decade. And I thought actually some of these watches are like way more tastefully executed than a lot of the bigger brands that we're seeing come up at the moment, notably on Instagram. I know that Piaget is Tony, it's gonna be this running joke I have with you. Like how long it took to windage in Piaget. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know, all those like crazy cuffs that have come up at Sotheby's and on the Keystone and like this really retro honestly are a little bit too disco fever for my taste. Like I get the appeal, but to me, that is just the 70s was this moment of like sheer insanity where there were no rules and everything just almost looked like kind of gross. Like it was just the taste level was questionable. But what I loved about the Chopard vintage was weirdly it was like executed in this very kind of refined way. Like the stone dial cuffs are all done really beautifully. They look like they belong in a high jewellery collection. It was just, I've been watching um The Feud, Truman Capote and the Swans, and it was kind of giving me that vibe, like Babe Paley, just like these like high society women wearing really luxe watches. And honestly, the price point on some of these things is kind of low. Um, but I would say 70s are amazing for this sort of they were really, really good at executing the sort of geometric stone dial thing. Or not dial, but more like dial and then cuff. And then also an era I kind of left out was the 90s just because I I felt like they were pretty tame in comparison. But Tony, I know you're a um what was that watch you sent me? The Monte Carlo |
| Tony Traina | . That's right. So Tony's never gonna talk to me again. Okay, first of all, I liked this article because for me, like Chopard watchmaking kind of had always begun at the introduction of the LUC collection in 1996, 1997, when they decided they were going to build their own in-house movement and they made the beautiful micro rotor movement that they just released last year again in the steel and copper salmon dial that you know enthusiasts really love. And from there they started adding complications, GMTs, Torbillones, etc. So that's kind of where Chopard watchmaking had begun to me. So I'm glad that uh someone like you introduced me to earlier eras of Shopard that are exciting in different ways. But yeah, Malaika had asked me to contribute to this article to choose a weird and funky shop part watch. And I chose one that was kind of a cross of uh like an ellipse and uh I don't know something else. I know the Monte Carlo. The Monte Carlo |
| Meleica Crawford | for it kind of looks like that AP that's like the what do they call it? The pajama, like the stripey have you seen that watch before? Oh sure, like the zebra. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah |
| Tony Traina | , yeah. It kind of reminded me of that. Yeah. Well, I I chose this watch. I sent it over to Melanika, even wrote a little bit about it, and she just didn't even include it in the article. It wasn't it wasn't crazy enough for her. So I've learned my lesson when Melicah says she's something weird or crazy. You really have to do your worst. Um but that's the story about Chappard. |
| Meleica Crawford | Well, Tony, I liked your choice, but my whole sort of thesis was like this jewelry watch crossover that we see from Piaget, Cartier, Bulgarie, even now Boucheron, like people embrace that. They've sort of let go of this watch snobbery and decided to I mean it's like it's not like Cartier back in the day was sort of making complicated watches, you know. So I think if we're worshipping at the altar of Cartier, let's like look at some other things too, you know. Um and even this idea that a lot of the designs maybe, you know, motifs that other brands have used, I think that's okay. And I think brands pick and choose from each other. And there was even a sepente in the mix. And I'm like a devout bulgary sepente girl. Everybody knows that. I'm never ever ever giving in my allegiance to Bulgari. But so what? They made a snake watch and a ton of other brands that used snakes as motifs across the board in jewellery. So it was like, okay, this is fun and cool and it looks weird and why not? And also shout out to Phil Toledano because we dissed him last last episode or the episode before. But I think he deserves an honorable mention for this skeleton San Moritz |
| Tony Traina | . Uh, that's right. I saw that watch when he bought it in Miami. The San Moritz has never been my favorite sort of 80s watch, uh, if I'm being completely honest with you. But the skeleton one is is cool. Um, and I do like the St. Maritz because it is kind of a a very shoppard take on the sports watch of of the air that was so cool, even if they were a little bit late to the party, if we're being honest |
| Meleica Crawford | . Well, okay. Final fact. But also I don't really care if they were late to the policy. Cause cool. I mean, whatever. In the end, like I think it looks good. And they actually were really early to the rainbow trend, which I discovered on my little dick. Like they were doing rainbow in 1984, which is like slightly after Rolex did a rainbow Cellini. But I think that was a cool fact |
| Danny Milton | . Should we do a little little wrist checking before we dig into the main the main topic? See what we're all wearing. Uh |
| Tony Traina | oh. Uh as long as Melica goes first, because I was shocked. Shocked, I tell you, to see what she has on her wrist. Please, Melica, go first. Why would you be shocked? It |
| Meleica Crawford | 's I'm G-shocked. Are you G-Shocked? I'm G. I'm wearing Ben Climber's G-Shock. There we go. Hodinky |
| Danny Milton | . Hodinky G Shock. What you gotta support the fam. Come on. A hundred percent. You got to. I mean I'm wearing a hodinky strap. That's gotta count for something. Yeah, yeah. Guys, I like to shock. It's what I live |
| Tony Traina | for. Yeah, well speaking of uh I don't know if we can get too close to it, but I'm wearing a special hodinky unimatic as well. But it's a it's unimatic uh U1 and I you know I love Unimatic. I've visited them in Milan before and uh glad to finally have one in the little in the little watch box for myself. Danny, what about |
| Danny Milton | you? I'm wearing my um my submariner in in full support of proportionality, I'm wearing my, I guess technically 39 millimeter sub on the Hodinky reed strap. I wear this one. Pretty often been switching up straps recently, more than usual. I'm usually a bracelet guy. Trying out the strap thing. Ooh, yeah, that strap is uh it's an interesting look. Yeah, it's different. I'm not sure if that was a compliment or not. Let's move on, may |
| Tony Traina | be. Well if you have to ask, it certainly was not. We're excited that Hodinki Radio is back, and our return is thanks in part to this week's sponsor, Accutron, and its new DNA Casino collection. Driven by the world's first electrostatic energy movement, the new Acutron DNA Casino Collection fuses vibrant colors with futuristic design. The four bold new colors, each limited to 100 pieces, are inspired by the bright lights of Las Vegas. The DNA is an update of Acutron's original icon, the Space View, the watch known for its revolutionary tuning fork movement. The DNA updates the Acutron's Space View for the modern era with a 45mm stainless steel case and integrated rubber strap. Since introducing the world's first fully electronic watch in 1960, Accutron has continued to push the boundaries of timekeeping. The Acutron DNA Casino Collection synthesizes bold colors, innovative technology, and a retro-futuristic design to make a bold statement. Accutron, it's not a timepiece, it's a conversation piece. Check out the new DNA Casino Collection on AccutronWatch.com or the new Citizen Flagship Store in New York. A big thanks to Accutron for its support, and now back to the show. Let's get to the main point of today's discussion. The plea for proportionality, as Melica called it a couple of weeks ago. I kind of introduced the topic at the top, but Melika, I I want to start here if that's okay with you, with what you call your Eureka moment in the article. You say it's not collectors or enthusiasts who are slow to the mark when it comes to cult cultivating a fresh perspective or aligning with a modern attitude. It's the brands who are mostly responsible for creating the impression that the watch world is state. So maybe we can kind of pick up right there and talk about what you mean by that and then zooming out and talking about perhaps why you even decided to write this article, why this article and and why now even you know this is gonna get deep, T |
| Meleica Crawford | ony. Uh but no, in all seriousness, it's something I think about probably every day uh since I've been in the watch world. Danny nays, I talked about it incessantly. There was a lot of thought that went into this article, I'll tell you that. Um it started uh with a how to wear it, where I styled three small 33 millimeter-ish size watches. And I was trying to frame my argument there, and it sort of got me thinking about how there are always these enthusiasts yelling about the size of watches on Instagram, like going on and on and on about small watches for men. And usually I sort of avoid getting involved in that conversation. And I feel like it's not really my sort of place to get involved in it. I don't want to start, you know, spreading fire wherever I go. Um, but I sort of sat and thought about it and I realized that if you really think about what these enthusiasts are asking for, they're kind of asking for exactly the same thing that I'm asking for, which is just like more thought and consideration and more varied design and size across the board. It's less of a let's, you know, change gender labels and more just like let's cater to everybody's taste, um, as opposed to sort of saying small watches on men and large watches on women. What about a sort of small, medium, and large for whoever wants it. Um, which seems like such a logical answer. And and I went through this whole sort of journey of well, why don't these men who want smaller watches just wear vintage watches and like stop yelling about it. Um but vintage watches are difficult. It's a whole different ballgame. You have got to find the dealer, you've got to find good condition, like it's a whole slippery slope. And why is it that these watch brands are just so slow to the mark? And I I mean talking about watch size to me is one of those things that I find truly monotonous. Like, how many times can we talk about it? But actually, we kind of do need to talk about it because it seems like this weird topic or or rather this weird area that the watch brands just like can't quite seem to understand. Um and it's giving off this kind of like super antiquated approach when everybody who's deeply into watches or you know like partakes in the hobby, like all of us have varying ideas of like what's cool and interesting. And I I just think the brands are not really taking note of |
| Tony Traina | that yeah i'd be remiss first of all not to kind of note mark cho who always does this watch size survey and kind of finds that around 36 millimeters is like the ideal proportion size. Obviously, the people that are responding to a survey by a a guy who runs a menswear shop is kind of a self-selecting group. So we'll we'll acknowledge that bias up front, but there's some truth to I'm sure what he discovers there that uh in general watch sizes and and wrist sizes are often a little bit smaller than than you would be led to believe if you just look at what brands are releasing year to year. Danny, I'm curious from your perspective, how have brands changed their approach to smaller or mid-sized watches over the past few years, if at all? |
| Danny Milton | I think it's been just a few, like a small handful, to be honest with you, Melika and I had a really long conversation about this, sort of in advance of both of these stories, sort of like trying to get to the core of what this topic is. So I've had a lot of time to think about this too. And we got to a few points, one of which being like just commercial products in general and the normal watch consumer. And if you were to ask like a handful of brands, like similar to the Mark Cho survey, probably what the ideal wrist size of their consumer is. I I bet you it might land around 42 millimeters. Just because like I find that when you talk to brands like Omega, for example, and what their best sellers are, it's probably, you know, the Seamaster diver or even larger planet oceans. And there's a reason why Rolex took its submariner to 41 millimeters. I think there's like an understanding that despite the enthusiasts, the off the street, you know, normal person who's not dreaming about watches every day is looking for something bigger. And I and you see the same thing. I'm not a car guy, but indisputably, you see the same thing in the automotive world. Like cars are bigger, they're longer, they're beefier, they're chunkier, they they lack that kind of charm. And so you really only see it in brands that embrace heritage. So the brands that I see it happening with, you know, obviously Tutor, the Black Bay 54 was a watch that is still like shockingly random to me. I love it. I appreciate that it exists. No one is doing that. The only brand that I saw do that before actually was two of them Rolex with the 37 millimeter yacht master but that was in precious metal and then even omega I believe had a 37 and a half millimeter planet ocean. Sometimes when brands do that on paper, that seems really good. And then you see it in person and the dials are so tiny that the watches actually look and wear more like 34 or 33. And that's a very strange thing for a dive watch. I'm like I'm rambling a little bit here, but my point is like no one's thinking about the enthusiast core. And in a way, what whether it's small group, it is a loud group. And so I think it's a vocal minority. So other heritage leaning brands I want to shout out. Panorai recently with their their new sort of radio mirror in smaller sizes. And then even Omega, I think the Speedmaster 57 is a good example, like the first omega in space a few years ago is a good example. But those are these are all specialty pieces. Like every watch I'm naming, those are not sort of their mass-produced marquee. You're not gonna see them on billboards when you're driving into town for the local jeweler or on a you know big screen in Times Square. So it's a strange, it's a it's a muddled field. It's trying to please the enthusiasts with like one or two SKU and hoping that they'll |
| Meleica Crawford | Yeah, it's funny you brought up Omega. Go ahead, Malika. Sorry. No, no. I was just gonna say off the back of that. Um it's really important to make that point that the average consumer probably doesn't give a beep, like uh, and and that's like part of the conversation I'm having, right? And that's why I'm asking for different sizes. I'm not saying make watches small again. I'm saying make some mid size watches in addition, please. And make them the same as the ones |
| Danny Milton | in the larger size. Like you precisely exactly because we know you can' |
| Tony Traina | t so just do it. Right. Yeah that's one of my big sort of beefs historically. Uh I think I'm gonna land this by by talking about the mid-size Vashron overseas just to kind of point you guys to where I'm going. But oftentimes what these brands will do, Vashron, for example, they used to have a 37 millimeter overseas, I believe, and they had an off-center seconds at like nine o'clock to kind of remind you that it's not it's not the overseas that a lot of people actually want. Uh paddock with their Nautilus kind of does this in my opinion. I was going to say the same thing swap out the hand. You know it's not the Nautilus. Yeah. It's not like when back in the day when they would do the thirty seven and the thirty eight hundred and from you know, ten feet away you would not know those watches apart because they're they're the exact same. And at some point along the way, maybe it's more more modern in more modern times, but they decided that they needed to do different design cues to distinguish between the big one that's the hot one that people want and this type of thing, uh, and and the quote unquote lesser version or the perceived lesser version. And surely there's there's all kinds of commercial reasons and otherwise for that. But that's why I I kind of when I wrote up the Vacheron overseas in 35 millimeters that they did last year that, they just released last year, almost a year ago now. I really like that they made it the exact same as the 41mm overseas. All of the design cues are the exact same. It's just for a smaller watch. Uh it's not perfect to me. Actually, Danny, to your point, I think the one thing they could have done is made the dial opening like a little bit bigger to make it wear a little bit bigger, because that's kind of what happens when you shrink down these watches sometimes if you keep the dial to bezel ratio the same, I guess it feels a little bit too small or a little bit too diminutive. But anyway, huge props to them for doing that because it's something that no other brand is doing. And especially if you're a brand like Vasharon, it's a way to really distinguish yourself in the marketplace. So we talk all the time about, oh, there must not be commercial demand for it. Well, on the off chance that there is, like Vachron just went out there and and staked their claim to to that market. But Danny, it's funny you brought up Omega at the top because I was literally on their website yesterday. And they have on the very f first page of their website, they have their best sellers. And it's the watches that that you mentioned and that you would imagine. It's uh two or three Speedmasters and then two or three C Master 300s, which are you know up all above 40 millimeters of course. So yeah, they're like forty two and up. Yep. Yeah. So there's no indication that there's a broader sort of uh demand for these types of things, nor are the biggest brands, Rolex and Paddock, necessarily getting um smaller at at any type of scale. So so there's all kinds of opportunity for a brand like Vacheron and others to to find places in the market to to address what we see as a as a potential need for enthusiasts at le |
| Danny Milton | ast. Well, look, I'm telling you, I mean these brands are not stupid. They're not going to pour RD into the watches when they get released that we look at. You know, every year, most brands release two or three SKUs for the enthusiast, four or five SKUs for everybody else. And we sometimes look at those and hesitate if we even want to cover them because they're either gargantuan, extremely modern, or have some sort of just like craziness to them. And I'm just thinking to myself, like there is a reason that these exist. Um, but beyond that, I mean, to your point about Vashron and to Malaika's point, I mean, what Tudor is doing is sort of the blueprint where each can be different, like the Black Bay 41, the Black Bay 58, and the Black Bay 54 are not identical. But as you get smaller, none of them are worse than the largest one. They're just variations on the theme, each pulling from a different sort of heritage point, and each uniquely interesting, but none of them feel like a budget black bay. Yeah. So you don't you don't have to make them all identical, right? I I mean Micah, what do you think about that |
| Meleica Crawford | ? I think that's why it made sense. I think that's why the watch resonated with me, because it was like, oh, this isn't just some diminutive version of the original. I mean, this whole point really does get me quite worked up and frustrated because it's like not only would these mid-sized watches serve the enthusiast, I think it would open up the pool to to women, right? Like I think you would then be allowing women more choice and variety, which would open up an entire segment of the market. Um, if we want to think about you know the balance sheet here. Um and also, yes, I know watches take longer to manufacture and produce and it's not like clothes or whatever, but it's like this idea that I I think the watch brands are just so like afraid of change and they're so sort of in servitude of the existing customer instead of like sort of making waves and making change and saying, actually, this is what we're doing and everybody's gonna follow suit, kind of thing. I mean, I'm not saying it has to be that extreme, but it's just quite sad when it feels like there's really a lack of originality or it |
| Danny Milton | just feels so predictable. And Malica, I'm genuinely curious because I know we're talking not just about watches being proportional for women, but being proportional for anybody that wants them to be, right? But yeah, that being said, when you think about, and you know, me going for a Rolex example, but when you think about sort of the Rolex collection, and and it's gotta be, it is a choice for a woman to wear um a quote unquote men's watch, right? So and then generally speaking, you have very few models in a collection, once you get smaller, that adhere to what would be considered like a classic sports watch. Suddenly at a certain point they, start putting diamonds on the dial. They start doing something to it that looks feminine for lack of a better word. And really, like in my brain, the only watch that exists, like in a from a brand like Rolex who can afford to take those risks, is like a 34 millimeter OP or you know like a 30 if I don't even think there is a 30, there's no 34 millimeter date just so really the 34 millimeter OP on an oyster bracelet, but like that's it. But if there were more of those, right? If if other models took that route and I think that women will be less it'd be less of a choice and it would feel less like you're wearing a man's watch, right? I mean I think you'd just be we |
| Meleica Crawford | aring a watch. Exactly. Right. Um, which is why I wear an explorer one every single day when I'm not wearing a sepented. But like I I see women wearing OPs everywhere. Right. There's a reason for that. Because it's like the most like non-gendered, |
| Tony Traina | you know, versatile, robust watch. It's up a price bracket, but the other brand that strikes me as doing things relatively well is is AP, obviously. And the black ceramic royal oak is the one that I think of the most. Brin did a great video of it a couple of years ago. But to me, it's uh like the Black Bay 54 in a way where it's something doing something different with the Royal Oak at a smaller size, but it puts just as much thought and takes different inspiration and uses different materials and all of these types of things that you don't see at uh other sizes of of the royal oak |
| Meleica Crawford | . Yeah, I think AP is probably the only brand currently who I mean they make so many different royal oaks in 34 and 37. And they always have, to be clear. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're like all over the shop with their sizes. Uh, you know, and that's that's just how it is. And that to me makes the most sense |
| Tony Traina | . Well, it's kind of like to your OP point, if you're at the next if you want to spend the next jump in money, whatever that is, it's the royal oak for like that next level of of wealth to me, in a way, you know |
| Danny Milton | ? Let's also shout out Chopard for a second. I mean, the Alpine Eagle 3741, you know, split is in line with what we're talking about in a in a way. Again, I think that watch feels slightly small at 37. It's it has that whole as you put it Tony the dial to bezel ratio makes it feel smaller but still they launched a watch in two size segments that kind of hit what we're talking about, uh, to the point where like our buddy James Stacy would rather buy the 37 mil |
| Tony Traina | limeter model, and that's kind of interesting to me. Yeah, the other one at a totally different price back bracket that I've been beating on a little bit on the website is the Disot PRX and how much I love the 35mm. To me, they're missing a 37 millimeter, but you know, there are options, more options than there were five years ago, but it still seems at at scale in the watch industry. Uh things are things are missing, I think is kind of the idea that we're circling around here. Yeah, there's a lot missing. |
| Meleica Crawford | Uh the PRX is a good one. I bought that for for my brother for Christmas actually. Hey, which one did you get? I got the blue dial. Nice. Yeah, it's classic. He loves it. And he is not a watch enthusiast |
| Danny Milton | . Melica, what's a what what's a brand that you think could that should spearhead something that isn't that isn't doing it, but could probably afford the risk. Like could I mean the obvious one? The obvious br |
| Meleica Crawford | and. Yeah. Rolex. Like, sorry. I mean everyone's like, yeah, but they'll never do that. And it's like, well, okay sure but why not |
| Danny Milton | ? Do you think things like the the having a 36 and a 40 millimeter explorer is the reverse of that? They start small then went big. But I really didn't like the 40 millimeter explor. You |
| Meleica Crawford | told me it was too big on me when I tried it on last year. Yeah I j uh It just doesn't make sense. Um to me anyway. Oh I uh yeah like look I again though I don't I truly please keep making 41 millimeter watches. I talk about the offshore all the time. I love offshore. I love how loud and big it is. But can you also make this the mid-size equivalent, but that is what I'm requesting. And I made that joke about dreaming, dreaming about a 37mm submariner. Can you imagine what would happen if they made a 37mm submariner. Like people would freak out. Oh yeah. Yeah, totally. Danny would put it on a leather strap. I mean that like but what I hate is that when I make these sort of suggestions, everybody's oh don't be so ridiculous. Like like as if I'm asking for I don't know |
| Tony Traina | . Stranger things have happened for sure. I have a follow-up question for you, Malaika. You've made a point that I quite like before. Uh something to the extent of you say sometimes it's nice to have no gender in watch design. I think that's some of the stuff we've been talking about, like the Tussault PRX, even the Vachron overseas. Other times you like to see intentional design for women and you think it makes sense. I'm wondering I've seen you write something similar maybe once or twice. I'm wondering if you could kind of just unpack this idea a little bit. |
| Meleica Crawford | So and it is quite complicated this whole idea of gender and watches. Um, and it's it's not a one note argument, it's like very layered. But I do think that the reason why watches such as the Benoit Bangle and you know Carolina Bucci for AP, the reason why those watches do so well is because they really take into account how modern women are dressing and how women are accessorizing, and they're like really paying attention to consumer taste. And like having a jewelry designer come over to a watch brand is a very clever thing to do because they sort of understand the the way women shop, the what they're looking for, what is kind of cool right now, or what will be timeless rather. It's a different brain sort of science when it comes to making jewellery. Um, and I think there's so much room for crossover between the watch and jewelry space. I mean, there are so many jewelry designers who are dying to make watches. Um, and the Benoit Bangle, I wonder if that was created by Marie Laure at Cartier because when I saw that watch at Watches and Wonders, I mean it's not the most like shocking design ever, but I was like, oh my god. They obviously are clearly paying attention to what women are wearing and how women want to wear their watch. And it's like a piece of jewelry without diamonds all over it. And that's intentional design. It's like thinking about what women want to wear without it having to be some unisex idea. It's like sometimes women like to wear, I hate the word feminine, but like to wear sort of feminine things. There's nothing wrong with that. I love serpenti. And actually Fabrizio from Bulgaria once said to me, Serpenti's a piece of jewellery with a watch on it. But there's actually nothing wrong with that. And so I think it's like about embracing intentional design and getting more women involved. Do you think that |
| Danny Milton | um like celebrity, not product placement, but like organic celebrity appearance actually helps move the conversation? I'm thinking a callback to our our buddy Timothy Chalamet, who's famously wearing like tiny cartier, you know, on stuff that like is decidedly not designed for a man's wrist. But you know, you'll see him courtsighted in Knicks game where you'd have to get like a magnifying glass to your computer screen to even see what's on his wrist. I mean do you think that kind of stuff over time? These things take time, but like over time these help push us in the right direction or at least push trends? |
| Meleica Crawford | Hundred one hundred percent. Like that is absolutely no denying it. Like I don't even think the small watch trend would be as much of a thing as it is if it were not for Timothy Chalamet and the other celebrities doing it. Like, you know, I love all our friends on Instagram, but it's they're not doing that. But |
| Danny Milton | we're we're bruising our foreheads on a really hard stone wall. Yeah. |
| Tony Traina | Yeah. It kind of Melika, it reminds me of where we started this conversation just talking about your Chopard article and exploring all of these weird designs from the 60s and 70s and and up to the 90s. And if you look at a lot of the catalogs of these modern watch brands, there's you'd be hard pressed to find that much variety in the catalogs in what they're doing and what they're trying to do with their uh more jewelry focused watches. And I think uh to your point, it it it would be worth exploring those types of things again, you know |
| Meleica Crawford | ? It's just like I don't understand it. We have I truly find it sort of confusing um because there are so many resources available. And there are amazing jewelry designers doing amazing things who would give their sort of right arm to work with a big watch brand. And I think it's kind of clever that AP cottoned onto that so so early on because I I do feel like this is something that could become a thing |
| Tony Traina | . Are there any specific sort of I guess it's a collaboration, but any specific things that you would call for brands or crossovers that you would love to see that would just blow your mind |
| Meleica Crawford | ? You know, I really think Tiffany needs to sort it out because they could really make some fire watches if they like like they could can you imagine like an Elsa Pareti watch crossover like some sort of sculptural amazing thing there's just I feel like there's so much potential I. could write you a list the size of, you know, I don't know. But I have |
| Tony Traina | ideas if anybody wants them. I'm so glad you brought up Tiffany. This is something I thought about somewhat recently that they're sitting on like a essentially a gold mine of all kinds of things on the on the side of that we've been talking about, but on the on the more men's unisex side as well. I mean, I think the East West is kind of cool. They used to make these old calendars. Yeah. They used to make these old calendars by Mavato, all kinds of things from Mavato, obviously the Patek relationship. But now that they're owned by LVMH, it feels as though it should only be a matter of time before uh Tiffany watchmaking is I it feels to me as though it's due for a real revival |
| Meleica Crawford | . And I also want to point out that I know tastes vary across markets, right? Like the Asian market is shopping differently to the US market. I think you know, Japanese women, for example, prefer smaller watches. I've spoken to multiple like editors from Japan who are like, yes, a lot of women who are just, you know, like general consumers prefer smaller watches. And so I reckon that, you know, the brands are catering to other markets. But I just, again, it's that argument of okay, I'm not saying make, you know, millions of units of our mid-sized dreams. Just like, you know, I'm sure they can figure it out |
| Tony Traina | . I was having this conversation with someone just this morning actually. We've been having some Watches and Wonders preview sessions, seeing things that that may or may not be coming out in the next couple of months. So I won't mention the brand specifically, but some of the stuff was just uh not really hitting the mark on the things that we've been talking about for the past uh 45 minutes, things that enthusiasts like, things that we like to cover on Hodinky. And the only thing that I could possibly think of as the explanation as to why is that it's just not geared towards our market specifically. It's not geared towards geographically our market and then specifically the enthusiast market. It's geared towards the other side of the world specifically that you're mentioning. And that's yeah, that's something that we acknowledge. I think you acknowledged it in your article, but I think you say something like please just come correct to each market, you know? Like yeah, if this if this isn't what is targeted towards us, like that's fine, but please show us something that is as well |
| Meleica Crawford | . Yeah, I mean frankly, to be to be totally honest, I find this here's a mother of pearl dial diamond indices. I just think at this point in twenty twenty-four, like it's just rude. So like come on |
| Tony Traina | . Yeah, do better. You know, in a way, this is kind of where I wanted to land this conversation, but if you look at watches from the nineteen nineties, let's say, even, you can go back farther to other generations, but let's talk about the nineties just for a second. Melica, just before this started, I saw that you sent me a uh gold Vachron Overseas from the 1990s. That's like 25 millimeters. And it's just emblematic of at the time, all of these brands were releasing watches across the size spectrum. Vashron had an overseas at pretty much every two millimeters. Tudor was making mid-size subs and mini subs in addition to the full size thing. Paddock was releasing traditional size calatravas that were the same size as the paddock 96. And at some point, I think the trend towards larger watches, these things just dropped off, but we've swung so far in the opposite direction now that uh hopefully hopefully these things will come back at some point across the board |
| Meleica Crawford | . I mean, like we were saying the other day with Ben, it is a pendulum, obviously. I'm sure things will swing back in time. But I think this is more of an argument for like more intentional thought |
| Danny Milton | . I mean it also is the way I maybe see it happening is is when when things shifted, they shifted quickly. I think things went from being sleek and smaller to big almost, you know, in one release cycle in a shocking manner. And maybe you know, maybe we shouldn't have to accept the fact that it's gonna take time. Like maybe the pressure should be on the brands a little bit to like shock the other way. I mean, at a certain point, they also lead the charge in influencing what is and is not sort of in vogue and on trend in their own industry. And you know, who I I I I honestly want to throw the onus back on the brands. I think that they couldn't possibly have known that people wanted, you know, what they delivered when let's say, you know, things jumped from 36 to 40 being the norm to 42 to 45 being the norm. And so why not just give it a shot? I mean, I don't know. The the thing that I I noticed that bothers me again, you know, taking the submariner as an example since we talked about having a 37 millimeter submariner, is like the fallacy that we even have a forty-one millimeter sub. It's not really. And it's like what do case size numbers even mean for any watch. I mean you think about Seiko versus uh I don't know Hublow and it's like two forty-four millimeter watches are not alike in any way. I mean you have to deal with like length of the case, um and just like the general size of the dial. I mean, I have a watch with a dial aperture that it has no bezel and therefore a 42mm watch feels like a 45. I mean there's just so many factors that go into this. It's like when I thought about proportionality, it just felt less like a size argument, even though I agree that we need to get there, but also feels like let's just stop making maxi watches across the board. That's really like where I think you could at least get the first dent into the industry |
| Meleica Crawford | . I do have a a last point that I think the generalist consumer, and I hate to be so sort of gauche but you know most people buying a watch they want you to know what watch they're wearing and if you're not an enthusiast, the point of you wearing a watch is likely to demark your sort of social standing. And that's where I think the sort of big watch trend kind of that's where I think it comes from, right? It's like that loud period in fashion when logomania really hit and everybody wanted to be flashy. And so it made sense. And if you're an average guy and you're buying the sort of gold standard of watch, you're likely getting a Rolex and you want people to know about it |
| Danny Milton | . It's true. It's at some point along the way, big watch meant big shot. And so it doesn't it didn't used to be like that. I mean it used to be what gold watch in any size, you know, oftentimes thirty-four millimeters was like holy sh. Yeah. You |
| Tony Traina | know. Okay Okay, guys, I'm thinking we can we can land it here for the day. Uh what would you like to see sort of from brands that choose any brand, any watch, something you'd like to see that kind of rifts off of the discussion we just had. I can go first if you guys want. Um to take a moment. Well, I hopefully I'm not stealing yours, but it's something that your something you produced, it was from Watches in the Wild. One of the guys you featured was wearing a Tutor Mini sub. You know, those are 33 millimeters. Like I said, they made them in the 90s. But I thought it just looked so sick on that guy. And it would be so cool if that were in the catalog again for men and women, it's such a cool look. Uh, I'd love to see something like that come back. And hopefully I didn't steal one of your uh one of your choices. No, I I think that's a sick cho |
| Danny Milton | ice. Um I would throw it to Omega. I think Omega would have a lot of power in the industry if they started going small, because they've sort of established themselves as sort of the the new go-to. You can walk into a boutique and get any watch you technically would like to get uh without you know meaningful weight lists. And so the C Master 300 being as popular as it is, I don't think that it carries the weighty heritage of the Speedmaster and there's the ability to change it. I'd like to see that watch at like landed thirty eight millimeters, you know, somewhere in in that target range. Um, and I think that it would be a watch that a lot of people would |
| Tony Traina | be attracted to at that price point. I could could we do an entire episode about Omega to be honest with you because I have so many ideas for them and things that they things that they're doing well but things that they could do better as well. For sure. Sorry Meleica go ahead. No no no I |
| Meleica Crawford | the Omega thing, we should lean into that at some point. Um, because I I bet we all have wild ideas. But aside from my 37mm sub laughable dream. Um you know, I'd love to see a baby baby aquinaut. A proper baby aquinaut. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would love that. I don't really like small watches, but that is a small watch I would just wear every da |
| Tony Traina | y. I think it's so sick. I love the so the original 5060, 5066 were 36 millimeters. Love those on my wrist. And then they did the quartz 4960, I want to say. That was 34 millimeters, even a little bit smaller. Love that idea too. |
| Meleica Crawford | Yeah. And we'll say a 3800. Yeah. Why not? Why not? Why not go back to the classics? And also a mid-size two to q2 because again, we know you can do it |
| Tony Traina | . Totally agree with that. Well, thanks for playing along with me, guys. Thanks everyone at home for listening to another episode of Hodinky Radio. Thanks to our video and audio editor Vic Automanelli and we'll see you again next week for another episode. |