Ben Clymer Presents: Ep. 8 – The Vintage Patek Episode for John Reardon¶
Published on Wed, 13 Dec 2023 18:00:00 +0000
The ins and outs of vintage Patek Philippe including dream references, peak values, and sleeper hits.
Synopsis¶
In this episode of Ben Clymer Presents, Ben hosts John Reardon, founder of Collectability and former Patek Philippe employee, for an in-depth discussion about Patek Philippe's role in the auction market and collecting trends. The conversation begins with Reardon's background, including his decade at Patek Philippe and his current focus on buying, selling, and educating collectors exclusively about the brand.
The discussion explores Patek Philippe's pioneering relationship with the auction world, particularly the landmark 1989 Antiquorum sale for the brand's 150th anniversary, where Philippe Stern personally consigned pieces including a platinum reference 2499. They examine how the brand's auction presence evolved, including the controversial Wall Street Journal article that prompted Patek to stop buying back their own watches while continuing to acquire important Breguet pieces for their museum.
A significant portion covers market dynamics across various Patek models. They discuss how certain vintage models like Rolex Princes and rectangular Patek watches have declined in value since the 1990s, while icons like the Nautilus 3700 have appreciated dramatically from $18,000 to over $200,000 at peak. The 5711 Nautilus saw extraordinary volatility, reaching $150,000+ before settling back down. They analyze perpetual calendar chronographs extensively, with the 5970 holding strong value while the 5270 represents potential future appreciation. Reardon believes the market is stabilizing to pre-COVID levels and sees complicated pocket watches as undervalued opportunities.
Throughout, they emphasize the importance of condition, complete sets with original boxes and papers, and how collecting trends constantly evolve. The conversation concludes with Reardon's surprising prediction that Patek Philippe complicated pocket watches represent the best investment opportunity in the current market, citing their unmodified condition and transparency compared to frequently restored wristwatches.
Links¶
Transcript¶
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| Ben Clymer | Hey guys, welcome to another episode of Ben Climber Presents. We are presenting the Patek Philippe episode with none other than my my good friend and one-time Hudinky contributor, John Reardon. How are you doing, |
| John Reardon | John? Great, and' its such a pleasure. Yeah, hoodinky Ben, and so great to see you. And I look forward to catching |
| Ben Clymer | up uh on the record with you. Yeah, we're doing this all on the record, so we're gonna ask some some tough questions. JK, not that tough. Um so you know, we had such great, frankly, success with the episode that we did with our friend Jeff Hess over at Sotheby's with the Vintage Rolex episode. We thought let's talk about the other great anchor of the watch collecting community, nobody better to talk about paddock with than than than John. So I would say 10 second C V. You worked at paddock for a little while. You've worked at some great retailers, some great auction houses. Why don't you tell everybody a little bit about your |
| John Reardon | your history? Uh sure. So I was lucky enough to go up next to a watching clock museum in my hometown of Bristol, Connecticut. And that's uh eventually led me into the auction world. And uh then I had the dream call to work for Petek Philippe for a decade and went back to auction 'cause I missed vintage so much. Four years ago I founded collectability, which is focused only on buying and selling and educating on all things Patek Philippe. And you host a podcast over there. And who was your your first guest again? Wow. No, you are the third guest. And and since then we've uh we're up to our thirty second uh episode. Our most recent guest was no other than Willie Andrews. Wow. Um so I wante |
| Ben Clymer | d to kind of you know start a little bit about the the history of Patek Fleep at auction. You're you were an auction guy, you know it very well, and certainly a Patek guy. Would you say it's fair to say that Patek was the first brand to really support watches at auction? And |
| John Reardon | if so, how did that really be That's a great uh question. It was really nineteen eighty-nine is where that story starts. And not only did they support Patek Flip at auction, they were part of the sale. And this Antiquorum sale, Habsburg Feldman from 1989. Um tech Philippe, I understand now was one of the consigners. They supplied information, they supplied marketing and worked very closely with with us Valdo Patrizzi. Uh I had the opportunity to do a podcast after shortly after yours with uh Mr. Patrizzi and he was sharing the stories of what that was like in nineteen eighty nine, working specifically with Philippe Stern and putting this sale together. So that was like one things really kicked off. And it was it was really a lot of attention was given to auctions. And in the 1990s, we could say the rest is history, it just um protectfully became the king of auctions. Uh Yes, the brand was buying watches uh at auction. And uh and famously now, I guess it was like 22 years ago, I believe, there was a New York Times article. Wall Street Journal I think. It was Wall Street Journal, yeah. Absolutely correct. When was that? It was like two thousand, two thousand one. Something like that, yeah. And it said the brand is buying watches back from auction. Which now everybody does to be. Which yeah, it's kind of the norm, but interestingly at that point of time particularly backed off considerably and stopped buying watches at auction, but their own watches. Because of that journal story. I think that article made them reconsider the policy. And the museum has had at that point such an amazing collection that they stopped actively buying and pursuing pieces at auction. What's funny is they continued to buy pieces from Brega, some of the most important bregae pieces that are in the museum today uh were bought by Patek Philippe. So they were supporting uh the auction industry, they were supporting the uh some of these incredible other brands, but not necessarily their own brand. But I |
| Ben Clymer | I think you know that there's this like there there's a few tropes that exist within the Hodinky comment community, right? There's like, oh, you know, the idea that if if uh a a brand is buying a watch back, it's because they want to prop up pricing. And as far as I know, most businesses, of which all watch companies are, like to spend more money than they have to on things. I mean it's just like completely ridiculous logic. And then the idea that like somebody who made something wouldn't want to buy something back. And I can tell you that there was one of our Leica cameras at a charity auction very recently in Germany, in fact, this past weekend, I bid on it very seriously because it was a prototype Hodiki Ghost. Why wouldn't I want that? Right. And so you get this idea that in in the comments section here and elsewhere that brands are running this like subversive uh plan to prop up pricing and spend more money than they have to, which in in many cases is just not reality. It's because they want to own the the thing. |
| John Reardon | I think your your listeners and the market in general is too smart to fall for that. Maybe in the past, there was there were examples of course brands propping up uh prices, but I think it there's a lot more transparency now. And I I think of the last two decades, that's that's not part of uh the narrative. Sometimes part of the attack narrative, but not part of the reality. Right. Um and when you go to the auction rooms, you can see Rolex if they're bidding. You know what they're bidding on, you can see their strategy, how they're doing it, and whether or not they they win. Right. And as a former auction guy, in the we were in the room, we were watching what the brands were doing, and I think it's it's much cleaner than what people think. The brands are transparent. They don't want headaches. Yet if they see a watch they want to buy, they're going to buy it. It's just to the h |
| Ben Clymer | ighest bidder it goes. Absolutely. And I I think that that is one of the great misconceptions about auction in general. People think there's a lot more funny business going on than there is in most cases. But taking a step back to that that anniversary auction, the 150th of Patek anniversary, run us through some of the highlights of that sale |
| John Reardon | . Oh well going back in time. Gee. I mean there was there were twenty-four ninety-nines, every every example. Including platinum. Including the platinum twenty-four ninety nine. And where where did that w that watch come from? Uh that was personally uh Philippe Stern's collection. Right. Oh I don't this is mythology again. At that point people said he had a drawer. Right. I'd love to see the drawer of all of these um unsold pieces um from protect Philippe's heritage and there were two 2499s in in platinum and that was the one that stayed uh with the Stern family and and he and I don't know the mechanics if he can sign or the company can sign but he contributed that set that watch to the sale in some way. Right. I don't remember what it brought in in that auction back in 89, but it was um people understood that that was an important piece that um that had an amazing past and certainly has an amazing future. Yeah. And that watch |
| Ben Clymer | was manufactured when the platinum? Oh wow, that fourth series, so early eighties. Early eighties, right? So it wasn't an vintage watch. I mean, I think we tend to think of twenty four ninety nines as old vintage watches, but you know, it was probably made five, seven Right. It was a used watch. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And then the the the platinum 2499, uh quite famously, I would say, uh appeared at auction after it was in the collection of Eric Clapton via O'Reill at Christie's the man behind the camera shot a great video about it. I think there's some rotating doors in that video that people still talk about walking into Christie's it was pretty exactly but a watch that that really resonated with me because it was one of the first videos we did around auction. It was the first time I really got to know Orell, Box, who, you know, is now an icon of the space. Uh and that watch in particular hasn't appeared since for sale anyway. Um, so that watch sold whatever in 2012 or 13 for three point something. Does that sound right? Yeah, it was in the threes. Right. And so then that's the only privately owned platinum 2499, the other one's in the museum. Um where do you think that watch would be today |
| John Reardon | ? It's funny, I was just gonna ask you that same question. That's what we're finding in our in our space is the pieces that are unique, well in this case one of two I don't think you' |
| Ben Clymer | d be disappointed if it came back right in the market. I I I think uh skip jumping around a little bit, but like how if that watch has say we'll just gonna say conservatively four X, five X, whatever you whatever you want to call it, minimum four X, three X. If that watch has gone up so much in the past, say 10 years, what watches have gone down in the past 10 years with the increase in interest in watches, as we said, many fold? You were saying that you pitched a book on watches many years ago to a well-known publisher and he basically said to fuck off effectively that's basically it. Yeah. And so I mean that probably wasn't that long ago. And now watches are on the tips of everybody's tongue |
| John Reardon | . That's true. I mean the last 15 years, 15 to 20 years we'll say watch culture has changed in Sotheby's watch and clock department. Right. And at that point in time, we basically covered all things horological. And a good part of my day was dealing with not only uh some American clocks, English clocks, uh basic even Japanese uh lantern clocks. I mean we had to know, study, catalog, and sell those, as well as Daytonas, as well as pocket watches, as as well as early enamels, uh it was even sundials were included in in that mix. And that that's a big difference of where I look at auctions today, which maybe sixty or seventy percent could be modern watches, which is a cut and paste job and and market pricing. So the the world has changed uh a lot um in the last uh twenty twenty-five years in in particular in in the auction world. |
| Ben Clymer | So so to to n to kind of go down another layer here. Like again if, the twenty four ninety-nine P is worth three to four X, what wristwatches, and let's get nerdy here, give me some references, are worth less now than they were then. Are there any? Yeah, if we think |
| John Reardon | well, I'm talking outside of my my space of knowledge, but uh I'm going back digging up some Rolex knowledge. Sure. Rolex uh princes were unbelievably hot um in the nineteen nineties, early nineties in particular. Rolex bubble backs were famously were famously white hot. In terms of uh Patek Philippe, 990 calibers, some of these amazing rectangular watches, uh the banana, the Marilyn Monroe, all of those brought really important numbers back in the nineties. And so just quickly what what is an important number for something like that? Oh back let's take um like a top hat fourteen fifty, which today you can buy for sometime like six, seven, eight thousand dollars, which is so well worth it. They okay back then relative it would bring twelve to fifteen thousand dollars. So that's incredible if we're going back in time twenty-five years. So what trends have changed over time and what people are looking at and what people are collecting is a constantly evolving force. And it's fun to imagine what we'll be like in another 10 years. And certainly there are uncovered uh opportunities today that we we |
| Ben Clymer | just we're just not paying attention to. Aaron Ross Powell And I I definitely want to talk about that kind of later in the show, but let's flip the script a little bit and say if if the top hat is say worth I'm gonna estimate fifty percent of what it was ten, fifteen years ago. What is now where two to three, four, five X |
| John Reardon | ? Wow. Almost everything else it seems. Um well like well Calatravas or just like take like 96s, five seventies. I don't maybe those have gone up two to three eggs, like relative to if we have to factor in how um just inflation which is a major factor. I hope we could talk about inflation later because that that's interesting. Um but of course the Nautilus storyline is just extraordinary |
| Ben Clymer | . Let's talk about this. 3700, the original Nautilus. I I bought my first one from Matt Bain. Uh didn't have a cert, it had an extract, but it came with the cork, the famous cork box, and I paid eighteen thousand dollars for it. Amazing. Sold it for probably how long ago is that? Uh ten years. Okay. Something like that. I probably sold it for eighteen thousand and one, something like that. Yeah, and I thought it was the smartest guy in the room. Um so if that watch was say eighteen, twenty thousand dollars ten, ten plus years ago, where's the good thirty seven hundred today? You know, at |
| John Reardon | its height, uh which would be about a year ago, yeah, year and a half ago, easily two hundred thousand plus plus for a prime example with all the bells and whistles the box uh the the original certificate have an archive to back it up yeah um and condition of course uh today those those have dropped. Uh it's kind of solidly in the one fifty to one seventy five range. For a good set. For a full set. Yeah. But to buy one just like to wear archive only could be like a buck twenty five today. So they have dropped um considerably |
| Ben Clymer | . But I mean as as a guy who's seen itself for 18,020,000 as a consumer, can you wrap your head around that? I mean obviously as somebody who sells them, of course you can. But as somebody who's buying them as as a lover of then, how do you justify that |
| John Reardon | ? It's it's tough. I mean these are wearable works of art. I mean it's like you know our whole propaganda that we that we share. Um but when you it I'd almost want to pivot the answer to that to fifty seven elevens. And the reason I want to answer that question around fifty-seven elevens is there's less of the condition variable. We have the thirty-seven hundred that's mint, mint, mint. If if one's like untouched, full set, like truly untouched, not detailed, I could see it bring two hundred thousand today. For fifty seven eleven. So no, I'm talking thirty seven hundred for thirty seven hundred. So it's kind of unfair to compare thirty seven hundreds because the data doesn't factor in condition. 5711s we can because there's just hundreds, if not thousands, of comps. And we've seen the rise of 5711 prices uh I mean skyrocket. I mean they've the it was extraordinary to see how fast 5711 prices have gone down. So it's uh it's something that we have to to keep an eye on and and uh understand that these aren't commodities for investment. Uh these are they're watches at the end of the day. And people that tried the game the market pretty much lost. Yes, unless they sold that |
| Ben Clymer | that you know for that period. Yeah. So the retail on a 57 well 5711 was what, 28? Something like |
| John Reardon | that? Um Uh the the last was like forty-two, but yeah, like twenty-eight thousand then retail went broke forty for a short amount of time before being disappointed. And at its peak, where where was a steel non-T |
| Ben Clymer | iffany full set fifty seven eleven. You're like one fifty easily. And then where where where |
| John Reardon | was the Tiffany Science deal? Uh three well, actually there's some that would trade at three fifty with Tiffany. Blue Dow. Not not the Tiffany Blue Dow. That's another story |
| Ben Clymer | . And and so, you know, again, Jeff Hess and I talked about him with the vintage Rolex world. Like, how do you feel, A, about the the m that incredible spike in that incredible valley of say a 5711, because as you said, like I can pull up my phone right now and find 100, not 100, say 25 for sale at a reasonable price that actually exists. How do you feel about that? And then where is the price today versus its peak and its and its lowest point |
| John Reardon | Which I wonder does it have room to go down? I mean I have a personal opinion on that. I let's hear it. I don't think it's gonna go up uh for a while. You think it's gonna go down more. There's just too much uh inventory out there and uh and I think we're gonna see a return to prices maybe from about two to three years ago. And and I'm I'm trying to do that just with all my pricing and just looking at numbers is where were things two to three years ago before the COVID bump. Right. And and I think we're trying to do that in a lot of different spaces. And I find it really interesting to see the outliers of things that are going up that aren't following that trend. And uh in some pieces it's actually going down even a bit further than where they were two to three years a |
| Ben Clymer | go. So I want to talk about that, but let's continue with fifty-seven eleven. So it's the the standard steel watch now you said it about a hundred thousand bucks. Yes. Okay. Full set. Yeah, meant full set. And are those if you can, when was the last time you sold one of those and how easy was it to sell? |
| John Reardon | Uh it's not my wheelhouse with collectibility. Nautilus um especially modern Nautilus is not not what I do. But of course I took some pieces for trade and yeah, I was I was able to get solid one thirty, one thirty five at its at its height and and I'd usually sell those to other dealers because that it's not something that I'd want to uh to market on our platform |
| Ben Clymer | . Right. So let's play kind of a numbers and name game here a little bit. So I would say the the modern icon of well watch collecting a watch that has appeared on talking watches probably more than any other would be a fifty nine seventy. Yes. Tell me where the fifty nine seventy market is now and what you think about it. It's it's sol |
| John Reardon | id. Off the top of my head, let's say there's thirty five hundred to four thousand examples of cross metal of cross metal all four metals. And can I ask you a question? Yes. Do you know that or are you assuming that? That's uh let's say it's not assuming, but based on a back to market coefficient, we'll call it, and best educated guest. Understood. But techfleep is not shared that publicly. Because the big question, like which which is the rarest metal, the yellow gold or it's gotta be Jay, right? I think it's J. Yeah. Just based on what we've seen come back. Um everyone assumes it's platinum. But they haven't shared the numbers yet and I hope they do someday. So the state of the 5970 it is and and you've very popularly shared on Hodinki is one of the most perfectly designed, protectfully modern watches. I personally agree. I absolutely love having one on my wrist. Um and other people that are new to the world of Patek believe that might not have uh had one in the past, they put that watch and then they become a believer and uh they absolutely love it. Um where's the future of that from a price perspective? I think that's a good question. Where's today, first of all? Oh, sure. So um platinum, you're in in low 300s. I think that's that's kind of that's retail uh number today. Yellow, uh wow, is it it's easily above 200 now for and we're all we're talking mint complete set. Sure. Uh yellow in in some cases is bringing more than than rose and white, which I'd put in that like 175 range. Um they're not as easy to find as they were a few years ago. They're increasingly more difficult to find and people are willing to pay for condition in a way. And with the fifty nine seventy in particular, if it's polished you could tell from a mile away. I mean it just the way the shape of the lugs and and the crispness. So there's uh if you have a mint one, try to keep it mint but wear it and enjoy it. It's it's not going to go down in value. Sadly, we see this all the time. So many examples have the missing case back or the missing cert. It's increasingly difficult to sell uh a 5970 or almost any modern paddock that's not fully complete. So you need to check all the boxes and have everything um in in order to to pay that kind of retail money for an example. But I I think over time it's it's it's a safe bet |
| Ben Clymer | . So you you think those still have have legs, even though the average young guy or gal today might not even I mean, removing the hooding key audience, right? And the the collectibility, you know, audience. Uh you think young guys know what a fifty nine seventy is? Versus a 5167, 5711 |
| John Reardon | ? I think a lot of the like thinking outside of the watch community, like all of us that are like following these things on a day-to-day basis, I think a 5970 or more broadly a perpetual kernel from protect leap is a dream watch um for a lot of people that are going down that direction. It's funny because the as soon as they find out it's not automatic you could sometimes lose people. They're like, oh I have to wind it. It's the worst. Yeah. So yeah, they're like, nothing, nothing to do with that. Yeah. Um and but others, they put it on their wrist. I'm just thinking of a client, I I showed one too recently and they're like, I like the size, I like the aesthetic and compared to XYZ brand that they were in the past, this is an easy transition um to one of the the modern icons of collecting. Yeah. Yeah. So John and I have have the other |
| Ben Clymer | John and I have basically called it like the Daytona of the paddock world. Like it's sporty, it's masculine, it's easy to understand, relatively speaking, and it's just kind of a perfect thing |
| John Reardon | . And and I I think we're gonna continue talking about the fifty nine seventy and the same legacy as twenty four ninety nines and fifteen eighteens. You're skipping over the thirty nine seventy in that lineage. Let's do it after. So um I find that uh the fifty-nine seventy though is kind of uh is it's that watch that's very quickly becoming vintage, almost officially vintage and uh and I more and more people are discovering it. So let's see let's see what happens in in the future. So then th |
| Ben Clymer | irty nine seventy obviously immediate predecessor, much smaller. In in my opinion, really wears like a vintage watch. It's smaller than a twenty four ninety nine. You know, the the round pushers and all the stuff that really feel very tech perpetual chrono. But certainly an increased interest in it, but nowhere near fifty nine sevent |
| John Reardon | y level. And interestingly, like 3970 numbers, once again, based on what we expect, around four thousand examples made. Is that so? I thought there were many more than uh fourth fourth well, this is my estimation over eighteen years. So that's a long spread for the 20, I'm sorry, for the 3970. Now the first series of the snapbacks, they're through the roof right now. It's and almost everything I'm saying, same thing is true with thirty nine forties. So like first series are are just through through the roof. But the condition is is is everything. But I've I've seen second series um prices get very strong with thirty nine seventy. I'm talking yellow gold, most common example. And then the late series are still a bargain. I mean to wear a perpetual chrono and and pay around a hundred, a hundred and change. For a J. For yellow gold only, yes, is um still very attractive value proposition. So they're they're out there. Um it's it's a piece that's available. The question that I have, and this is where fifty-nine seventy and thirty-nine seventy values may uh lie in the future, is what about the size? And there's a very real trend towards smaller watches. So I'm seeing more people, men and women, wearing 3970s than ever before. 5970s uh our big watch where the for the the wa for people who like larger watches it's it's it's always there for them. But I don't know where the future um it I mean in theory thirty nine seventy should be higher price point than fifty nine seventies, but they're not. But why why do you say that? Why should they be think it's uh just it's earlier. There's more time has passed, more case backs have been lost, more polishing has been done. So supply and demand the best examples should be bringing a a super premium. Um but fifty nine seventies I think uh are are in a magic space. Um with just the I mean it's like a fan club around fifty nine seventies that uh just keeps getting bigger. So let's talk 5270. Yes. What do you think? Historically, we're gonna look back at this as a really good time to buy fifty-two seventies. Everyone's turning their back on the fifty-two seventy right now. I think they'd be I as you know, I own one. I think they're amazing. You love it? I love it. I got married in that watch. That's your keeper. It's a keeper. So aesthetically though |
| Ben Clymer | , how do you find do you prefer the fifty two seventy over a fifty nine seven? I I currently don't own a fifty nine seventy, although I have in the past. Um, the 5970 is probably more balanced. I think as somebody who cares not only about how it wears and and aesthetics, the 5270 is a better movement, not even close. It's also finished better, in my not so humble opinion. That matters to me as as a watch guy who spent a lot of time around watchmakers. And then I think ultimately everything with me is the story, and not only that I was married in one, but like I the 5970 was before my time. I could never have ever have afforded one when those were in retail. Ever. Like, not even close. Even in the in the late stages when you had the peas and all that. Like, just never. You know, it was like so beyond my comprehension. But the the in particular, platinum, perpetual calendar chronograph from Patek Fleep, all the peas, like that was it. You know, it's it's like that was the thing that I was working towards. And when I was able to buy one at retail, um, that was a really meaningful thing to me. And that was like, okay, like I I made it now, you know? And so that that watch for that reason is incredibly special to me. I also happen to think that it's a beautiful watch. And I think, you know, as as as John said in our talking watches with uh with Ed Sheeran, the the f the first one was quite bad. You know, I really thought like aesthetically, like there was some really odd design choices there in terms of the chin and you know how they use the font. By by the time it resolved itself into where we are now, which is the the rose gold and the pea and the in the salmon and the and the green. I think it's a beautiful watch. Uh and like you know, it's it's not like we've come around on that. Patek actually changed the dial to make it that much more appealing. And I think I think those are just lovely watches now. Which version do you have? I have platinum |
| John Reardon | uh salmon dial platinum salmon the salmon's beautiful yeah it this is it's such an interesting thing in collecting and and in trends and uh I realize I'm not like the youngest person anymore in the room, which it felt like my whole first part of my career obviously was sure. You know the thing, you know the feeling. It's it's |
| Ben Clymer | it's fascinating. It's nice when people call me a blogger and I'm like, I'm forty-one, dude. You know, like give me a break. Yeah. Only happens in Switzerland. Only in |
| John Reardon | Switzerland. It's it's so important to remember that like trends and taste will change and uh and the definition of vintage is constantly changing. And uh and what you just said how the fifty-two seventy of its kind of connects with you emotionally, yeah, you're not the only one. Right. So and and I do think in the same way sometimes pieces from the past, which were hero pieces, that like have just completely been um forgotten of pieces that are just obsessions of people in the past. For example, 3448s and 3450s. Um, that was like the the trophy for so many people who who grew up and might have seen them on a a father or a grandfather. Yep. Um and I I think people are there there is a circle of people who appreciate that for what it was, but there there's a dislocation in value. So it's funny pieces in particular. |
| Ben Clymer | I was actually offered a thirty four forty eight full set J recently. That's a watch I've never owned and always wanted it. Where where do you think those are these days? Oh a night full set, you |
| John Reardon | said? Mint. Okay. What does that even mean? You know? Yeah, exactly. Everything's been polished. Right. Like one seventy-five is kind of the number. Yeah. And what about a white gold? Oh. It's a different thing. Okay. Sixty hundred thousand if it's really minty. Right. Um and uh you take a thirty four forty eight in white gold, that watch, especially one of the earlier series. Yep. It's a perfect it's a perfect |
| Ben Clymer | watch. And they bring important money for a good reason. In white gold. In in white g in yellow, you know, Phillips famously had that really really, uh mint watch probably four years ago. Uh that that sold for I think five hundred thousand, like a big number, right? But his I mean historically they don't bring anywhere close to that |
| John Reardon | . No, there's some on um like in the vintage world that are circulating that well above that price point in in white gold. In white gold. In white gold. Oh you're talking about yellow gold ones. Yes. Uh I remember at uh at Christie's we sold some uh some yellow gold like prime examples for I'm I'm in the high threes is kind of the the h the the biggest number. But the fact that you could still pick one of those up for under two hundred in yellow gold is is interesting. And it's automatic and it feels modern. |
| Ben Clymer | It really is it's it's kind of a in my opinion, a a perfect hybrid of old and new, just like I think the 3970 is and 3940 for for for that matter. Um so on uh so we did perpetual calendar chronos, let's talk about chronos. Yes. Well let's let's start with fourteen sixty three. One thirties, all five thirty-threes, all all those vintage chronographs. Where where are they now? And I I realize that there's very different things there in those references, but like do people care about those anymore? It's not like it was. |
| John Reardon | Right. Um but I I'm optimistic that will change. I think 33 and a half millimeters is considered a little small on 130 or 533. Uh but when you put one on on the wrist, people tend to fall in love with it. And and I love the fact that there uh is increasingly a wider um female audience which loves vintage Patek Philippe. And wearing a a 130 or 533 or even a 1463, which is a bit bigger, it just looks incredible on it on any wrist. So I think there is a good future with those. Um, but uh right now they represent a value buy, in my opinion. Okay. |
| Ben Clymer | So let's go to 1463, because I think that's the one that most guys are that I I've had a few. I love them. Where's a good fourteen si |
| John Reardon | xty three J today? You could pick one up for a good one, under a hundred thousand. I mean, which is crazy because for a while they're they're easily approaching two hundred for a good one. Great is another story. Sure. So it's it comes down |
| Ben Clymer | to um condition again. And and I I've long said probably on on this platform somewhere that like the watch that I'm the vintage watch that I'll own and wear every day when all this is said and done would be a fourteen sixty three steel. |
| John Reardon | Well I haven't had one personally, but just looking at prices at at auction, they're in that that two to two fifty range for really prime extel and steel. Okay, that's actu |
| Ben Clymer | ally much less than I imagined. Yeah. Yeah. Um let's move towards the modern era. Fifth 5070, 50, 70. How how are those today |
| John Reardon | ? Uh 5070 Ps are still very high. Just sold one yesterday and I'm regretting it already. Um you share roughly the range on that? Sure. In the in the high one hundreds, they're they're kind of that one seventy-five to one eighty-five range uh consistently. Which is significantly more than any of the other metals. Yes. Why? Strangely. You take like G or R, uh the weight or the rose, and they are just they're like stuck at that seventy five to eighty. Which they were like six years ago too. Yeah. It's like completely stable. Platinum has has jumped. Interestingly, because I'm looking for a couple of clients to find a really nice 5070 J. Right. I actually think today, if a really mint one surfaced, I I think I could get a historically higher number for it from a retail buyer. Right. They're tough to find. And and that that black dot yellow gold. Yeah, that's right. That's where it all began. Um I think we're gonna start seeing those when we're not there yet, but we're gonna start seeing those over a hundred thousand soon. And that hate |
| Ben Clymer | forward looking statements. That's kind of nobody knows, but you know, that that's that's what we're here to do. Fifty one seventy P or fifty one seventy in general. I mean I'm I'm wearing a P right now. Uh I think they're great watches. Such great watches. |
| John Reardon | Uh great value. So I actually haven't sold one, so I don't know the price point. Um the yellow gold one seems to be offered all the time. For nothing, right? Yeah. Really, really reasonable. And these are now |
| Ben Clymer | discontinued. So we have a fifty one seventy-two. So you would think in theory these should pop at some point. They should. They should. So we have only a few minutes left and we're gonna do some rapid fire stuff. But but quickly, if favorite protect Philippe ever made, if you had unlimited budget, didn't have to insure it. Uh what what vintage Patek would or what Patek would you own? Can be in the in the museum as well |
| John Reardon | . It's a piece in the museum. What is it? That I uh didn't even know it existed and and I was over there recently and uh was enamored by as an understatement. It's a paddockflip pocket watch, which might be the first surprise. It's a paddock ellipse pocket watch. Okay. It's a paddockphilip musical ellipse pocket watch. I don't even know what that means. So only one was ever made in Patek Philippe's history. This is a skeletonized Patek Philippe ellipse pocket watch where you push a button and it had Gran and petit sonnerie and it actually plays music on the hour and quarter on demand. And what song is it? Uh we haven't been able to identify the song yet. Um but you press you press the the a button on the crown, like it looks like almost like a chronograph button. Yeah. And you see this central disc that has a calatrava on it engraved with these pins that come up. So it's like a disc type system. And it has 24 forks that are each jeweled and it plays music as this thing spins around. I never knew this existed. We've all been to the Patek Fleet Museum a million times. Uh and this this watch is for me the dream watch. It's a one-off. And the more that I learn about it, it was it was a pet project of um uh Henry Stern for an important client. What year were we talking about? 1976. Okay. So uh the fact that Patekli just took these risks even in the midst of the the courts revolution is very interesting to me. Sorry, Henry Stern or Philippe Stern? This is his father. So this is Henry Stern. Wow. So this is going back another generation. Yeah. So um right now that's like my dream piece, but it's great. It's very safe dream piece. It's only one. It's in the museum. You're never going to be off. I'm never going to get one. And that's it. But that's the one that captures my imagination. Of course, there's about a dozen wristwatches I would do anything for. Yeah. But that's the one at the top of my mind. Okay. So we're going to end this with a quick |
| Ben Clymer | little rapid fire and then we're going to let you go. 5070J versus 1463 J, which one do you buy |
| John Reardon | ? Oh, for me? J just because of the price point. Just because of the price. Let's remove price, just so we we can get to the the heart of the matter here. Oh the if remove price, I'd want the fourteen sixty-three. Okay. Because for me a fifty seventy is too big on the wrist.. Got it Best best 2499 you've ever held. Oh, that's a tough one. Um 2499 first series, SERPACO. Surpico. So was that yellow gold or or that was a yellow gold example that we had at Christie's, which is uh just crazy. Remember it was a season where two surpicos surfaced at the same time. Yes. It was incredible. Yeah, that was |
| Ben Clymer | the best one I've seen with my own eyes. If you had the opportunity to buy the best 2526 in the world or the best 3428 in the world, which one would you buy |
| John Reardon | ? I love it. We didn't talk about 2526s. Yeah, if I could have a 2526 in um with a Tiffany dial, I think that would really capture my. I wasn't bidding, but I' |
| Ben Clymer | d love to have one. Yeah. Yeah, that's a neat one. Um 3448 or 1526? 3448. Even though 1526, yeah. It's nice. Uh and to wrap it all up, if you had or you out there had, and let's get incredibly crass here, you have a hundred thousand dollars to spend right now and, the game is if you can convert that hundred thousand dollars into two hundred thousand dollars within five years, you get a million dollars. What would you |
| John Reardon | buy? This might get some of the listeners upset, but I'd buy protectly complicated pocket watch. Okay. I really, really do believe that. If if you're playing from like a market perspective. Because I think now that we're having more transparency than ever before in terms of condition from sellers. Pocket watches are like the last segment of truly unmodified, untouched examples of horology that we have from from the past. And I love the fact that you can find a piece from 100 150 years ago and and know what's actually been done with it. But nobody does it. Relative certainty because nobody's restoring the enamel dials in that same way. Um the cases, um since they're a bit larger, you can actually see everything that's been done. You know it's been polished, you know it hasn't. And uh and I I although I mean the argument against that is um people aren't wearing pocket watches. Hey, trends can change. That's right. Um but even in the past um four years, and my answer would have been the same four years ago, pocket watches are one of the safest places. So repeating split second perpetual like real complications. Exactly. Real complication. Even time only is a have done well. Yeah. So I really believe that there's a future there. Okay. But that is that's a total money play. Okay. That's |
| Ben Clymer | okay. So we're gonna come back with John Reardon in in exactly five years and uh and and see how he did on that prediction. John, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much. I'll see you soon. Thank you, Ben. |