Ben Clymer Presents: 04 – The Vintage Rolex Episode With Geoff Hess¶
Published on Wed, 1 Nov 2023 17:00:00 +0000
Sotheby's Head of Watches and the founder of Rolliefest on vintage Rolex – buy, sell, hold, and the enduring allure of the Big Crown Sub.
Synopsis¶
In this episode of Ben Clymer Presents, host Ben Clymer interviews Jeff Hess, Head of Watches for the Americas at Sotheby's, for an in-depth discussion about the vintage Rolex market. Hess brings extensive experience from his previous roles at Analog Shift and Phillips auction house, and shares his perspective on how the watch collecting landscape has evolved over recent years.
The conversation begins with Hess describing his recent RolyFest 2023 event, which brought together 175 collectors from 17 countries for gatherings at the American Museum of Natural History and Rainbow Room in New York. He emphasizes how the event celebrated shared passion and community rather than investment values, comparing the experience to attending a live concert versus listening to music alone.
The discussion then turns to market analysis, with both collectors noting how the vintage Rolex market has come full circle. They observe that after a period of intense speculation during 2021-2022 when investment concerns dominated, the market has cooled somewhat, allowing true collectors who appreciate scholarship and history to return. Hess explains that while contemporary watch prices have pulled back, blue-chip vintage pieces like Paul Newman Daytonas have largely held their value, with pump-pusher examples still commanding around $250,000 and screw-pusher versions reaching $300,000-400,000 or more.
The conversation explores specific references in detail, including big red Daytonas (around $100,000), vintage Submariners (particularly big crown models like the 6200 and 6538 worn by James Bond), GMT-Masters (which have softened more significantly), and surprisingly undervalued pieces like the Explorer 1016 and vintage Date-Justs. They discuss why certain references haven't achieved the astronomical prices of others despite their historical significance and scholarship potential. Hess ultimately identifies gilt-dial big crown Submariners as his favorite Rolex watches and suggests GMTs may represent the best buying opportunity in vintage Rolex today, while Daytonas remain the safest hold. The episode concludes with Hess teasing upcoming Sotheby's auctions and future RolyFest events.
Links¶
Transcript¶
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| Ben Clymer | All right, everybody, welcome to another episode of Ben Climber Presents. What am I presenting today? I am presenting Vintage Rolex. Uh, and with me, I've got a longtime friend and great member of the the the Rolex and Greater Watch community, Mr. Jeff Hess, uh, who is now with Sotheby's here in in New York as the he |
| Jeff Hess | ad of watches for the Americas. That sounds |
| Ben Clymer | like a good job. Great job. So you play |
| Jeff Hess | with watches all day? All day long. And |
| Ben Clymer | so so working working at Sotheby's, you |
| Jeff Hess | previously were with Analog Shift, |
| Ben Clymer | previously with Phillips, you know, kind of have a long and storied successful career in watches. How does Sotheby's differ from both of those places and what made you kind of jump into Sotheby' |
| Jeff Hess | s In large part well first of all I'll say I had a great experience at Analog Shift and a great experience at Phillips. I learned a tremendous amount. And I think in particular my experience at Phillips enabled me um to be ready for the job that I have now. Again, the the head of watches for the Americas at Sotheby's. Throughout my life, I've always been somebody who's liked to build things. And I think the Sotheby's opportunity allows me to use those skills and to help work with a bigger team in sort of a bigger shop. So I'm having a lot of fun. I'm having a lot of fun growing a team and sort of contributing to some of the managerial decisions around what sales we should have, when we should have them. And so it just provided a new opportunity for me |
| Ben Clymer | . That's really amazing. So to today I would say I've asked you here |
| Jeff Hess | So RolyFest, uh I if I had to give you a topic sentence, I would say it's about shared passion and community. Okay. In a nutshell, in 2019, I took it upon myself to host a global watch gathering. I called it Rolly Fest. It was a made-up sort of fun term. Ye |
| Ben Clymer | ah, I get that. And |
| Jeff Hess | we had about 110 people from about 15 countries come from all over the world. We rented the intrepid aircraft carrier and had dinner there. And people brought their watches the next day to a hotel. And it was really warmly received. And I decided I wanted to do it again. Unfortunately, the pandemic put a uh hold on that. Finally, sort of took the bull by the horns and said, let's do it again. So a few weeks ago, we hosted Rolly Fest 2023. We had 175 people from 17 countries across the globe. We had a big dinner under the whale in the American Museum of Natural History. |
| Ben Clymer | Cool. Followed by a brunch |
| Jeff Hess | when all the watches came out at the Rainbow Room at the top of 30 Rock. Really a great showing of just great watch passion. You know, the notion of values and investment, and that's something we can talk about, but the value the notion of values and how much things were worth was sort of put aside for a day |
| Ben Clymer | . And it was just a realiz |
| Jeff Hess | ation that there is such a great community. Yeah. And all watch collectors love this notion of sharing passion. I sort of likened it to going to a concert. If you're at home and you listen to music, you can be on your own, put your headphones on and have a very relaxing, easygoing, great experience. But if you go to a concert and the live band is playing and you're feeling that energy with a room full of concert goers, this sort of nothing like it |
| Ben Clymer | . And I think to some de |
| Jeff Hess | gree that was replicated with Roly Fest. You had people from all over the globe coming, sharing their passion, sharing the stories, all their treasure hunting. And it was just a recognition that how fortunate we are to be in a community like this and to meet people and develop relationships with folks that you would not have otherwise met but for this little piece of jewelry on our wrist. |
| Ben Clymer | Yeah, and l let's talk about not necessarily the that specific piece of jewelry on your wrist, but this category, which is vintage Rolex. And like when I when I think of you, I mean I've known you a long time, I think of vintage Rolex. I think Roley Fest really kind of was something of kind of like a climax, of course, of sorts of the revival of vintage Rolex as a category. You know, vintage Rolex is something that really was attractive to me in the early days, kind of fell, I wouldn't say out of love with it, but started to get into other things like many of us do and has now kind of come full circle and in many ways like it almost feels like vintage rolex is back. And talk to me a little bit about the genesis of the vintage Rolex market and |
| Jeff Hess | I'm talking proper vintage like, like stuff |
| Ben Clymer | 6200, you know, 6239. It's like really old Rolex watches, versus what I think a lot of people think of today as like the neo-vintage stuff the sapphire stuff and certainly the ceramic and more modern stuff |
| Jeff Hess | . I think your analysis and your experience is really spot on. You know, when you and I first started collecting watches and we were on forums, even pre-Hodinki |
| Ben Clymer | , if you even said the word invest |
| Jeff Hess | ment And I think for a while, and I gave an interview about five years ago when I talked about how collectors were sort of struggling to find an equilibrium between passion and investment. And we always were taught buy what you love, buy what you love. And years ago, if you even said the word investment, you got a slap on the wrist saying you shouldn't speak about that. It should just buy what you love and don't worry about the money. But eventually things got more and more expensive. And then it became fair to say, hey, the investment part has to be a part of the equation. It would make total sense to be thinking about this. Can I sell this watch if I need to? Am I gonna make money? Am I gonna lose money? Is it something that's liquid? Right. And I think over the ensuing years, in particular in 21 and 22, we saw this incredible shift where the equation became really a lot about investment. And that's where I think some of the interest tailed off. Perhaps for you, for me, and for others. I think we went into an environment where people started to feel like, you know, the watches are owning me. I don't own the watch anymore. And how many people I heard say, you know, this isn't fun anymore? I'm done.. Right Um and what I think we're seeing now, to really answer your question, is not dissimilar from other assets, we're watching some downtrending in prices. And now what I'm seeing is real collectors coming back into the market, less speculative buying, and with that comes the person who enjoys the scholarship of a lot of the references that you've spoken about. You know, collecting vintage Rolex is a little bit of a different experience than going to a store and buying a modern Nautilus or even a modern Rolex. There's a lot of narrative, there's a lot of story, there's a lot of history, it's almost like art history. And I think that appeals most to the real collector, the true collector. So what I'm seeing now is prices have pulled back and retreated a little bit. |
| Ben Clymer | On contemporary watches. On contemporary |
| Jeff Hess | watches, and to some degree across the board, we're seeing the real collectors of vintage who appreciate that scholarship, who want to do that deep dive, sort of coming back. And they're saying, wow, you know, prices are a little bit more reasonable now, it's it's fun again. There's no question that the thrill of the hunt is a big part of watch collecting. And I think for a while people felt a little bit stymied that prices got very strong for vintage Rolex or modern. And then we're also seeing something that you and I have heard over and over again for years and years and years: that if you buy the very best example you can find, you'll be well served. And if we look at results recently, there was that tremendous milgaus that Phillips sold for about three million dollars, spectacular. This past weekend Monaco Legends sold that beautiful black with tropical dial RCO for a significant fund. Sutheby sold an incredible JPS not long ago for over two million, which was a record. So what one thing that I think has not changed is that the very best examples will always command a premium. And you certainly see that with some of the the Paul Newmans and and uh and a lot of the sort of big classic references. |
| Jeff Hess | Yeah so I mean let let's let's do what we like to |
| Ben Clymer | do the most and like talk specifics here. So like let's start with the oyster Paul Newman Mark I Mark II, whatever wherever we wanna end up is fine. That I kind of view as like the bellwether of Vintage Rolex, right? It's the thing that like is I don't wanna say it's easiest under under tostand, but it's kind of the easiest to understand, right? Paul Newman War I, it's a Daytona, it's steel, it's easy. And and there, I mean, there's enough of them out there where like there's a real market for them. You know, you get into 6200s and some some more obscure like, kind of micro references, and it's like kind of hard to really benchmark. So where is an oyster Paul Newman today in terms of value |
| Jeff Hess | ? Um it's at a significant number |
| Jeff Hess | . And before I even give you a number, I think it bears noting that I've always believed that the Paul Newman market is almost a separate market unto itself |
| Ben Clymer | . It's as blue chip |
| Jeff Hess | as it gets. And what's really interesting is with more and more newer collectors coming into the fold, they may not identify with the man Paul Newman as much. And yet for whatever reason, the Paul Newman iconic Daytona can continues to hold its own. You're gonna be hard pressed to find a screw pusher great Paul Newman for less than three or four hundred thousand dollars. Um and sometimes you'll see a Mark One, you know, in tremendous condition that could theoretically be more. So the reality is, I think, that even if the name Paul Newman starts to become a little bit less relevant for a younger generation, the iconic design in that watch um just has incredible staying power. |
| Ben Clymer | Yeah and I I think you know we saw in I don't want to say I'm not going to call them this generation's Paul Newman, but somebody of of equal, you know, import in Mr. Sean Carter, Jay-Z wearing a a Paul Newman Tiffany sign. So the fact that like, you know, somebody that is so, so mega famous is wearing a vintage Daytona |
| Jeff Hess | . Absolutely. I think says a lot about |
| Ben Clymer | like the the the demand cycle of of that watch. And Jay-Z's been buying some amazing watches these days for sure, but like to see him bring a vintage Daytona of that kind of level of uh integrity is is is something for sure. |
| Jeff Hess | No doubt. So okay, so the Paul Newman |
| Ben Clymer | 's have remained relatively, I I don't want to say flat, but where where were they at their peak, if you don't mind me asking |
| Jeff Hess | ? I'm gonna say there hasn't been a dramatic change. I think pumper pushers, 6239s and 6241s had a significant escalation going into the famous Phillips sale where Paul Newman's Paul Newman was sold. And I saw those drift up into the mid-200s for pumper pusher watches. The truth is |
| Jeff Hess | they've stayed relatively close to that. A great |
| Jeff Hess | pumper pusher is still gonna cost you that. In fact, I |
| Jeff Hess | saw that I've seen that the |
| Jeff Hess | gap between screw pusher and pumper pusher is actually narrowed. At one point it was two X or even three X. It isn't quite that way anymore. |
| Ben Clymer | Right. Um but the truth |
| Jeff Hess | is I think a pumper pusher is still gonna cost you at least $250,000 for a really great example |
| Ben Clymer | . So it isn't a wat |
| Jeff Hess | ch that's pulled back dramatically. In fact, that escalation that we saw going into the sale of the of the famous Paul Newman has |
| Jeff Hess | really largely held. Yeah, it |
| Ben Clymer | it almost seems like you know, over the past few years, yourself, myself, and so many of us have been interviewed by, you know, the Bloombergs of the world, we'll call them, uh about the the the great investment potential on the watches, but what they really meant is contemporary watches, like buying a Daytona at retail, and then it's worth three, four, five, upwards of five times that at its peak, I would say. But all the while, vintage Daytona in particular kind of remained constant. J noustbody was talking about it. Yep. Does that feel right? |
| Jeff Hess | It does feel right. And the words blue ch |
| Jeff Hess | ip come to mind. You know, to some degree |
| Jeff Hess | , if you are thinking about val |
| Jeff Hess | ues, because that's what we're discussing right now, I think you have to project yourself out ten years from now. And there are a lot of brands and particular independent brands that are pushing the envelope with respect to design, and there's some incredible creativity out there, but it does beg the question: 10 years from now, will those styles and those creative designs still be desirable? They may or may not. But I with |
| Jeff Hess | can say with confidence that 10 years |
| Jeff Hess | from now there will be a meaningful market for collectors that want to buy a Paul Newman Rolex Daytona. The design itself is extraordinary. So |
| Jeff Hess | I think recognizing that it |
| Jeff Hess | 's a blue chip to some degree. You know, I think we we love all these creative new designs and sometimes we forget that there's something to be said about these tried and true successful formulas that are that are always likely to be desirable. |
| Ben Clymer | So let's kind of keep going down the hierarchy here. Big red 6263 or just any 6263 steel. |
| Jeff Hess | I think a great big red 6 |
| Jeff Hess | 263 with or without boxing papers is still gonna cost about a hundred grand. Right. And |
| Ben Clymer | so that might be down a little bit. A little |
| Jeff Hess | bit, but it doesn't mean a fantastic one wouldn't have been one twenty. It really wasn't that long ago, that we were in the 7580 range. You know, to the |
| Jeff Hess | extent that some of the froth |
| Jeff Hess | of the pandemic pricing has pulled |
| Jeff Hess | back, even with ref |
| Jeff Hess | erences like that, if we're returning to sort of pre-pandemic pricing, I don't recall anybody in 2019 or 2020 saying, wow, there are bargains to be had on big red six two six threes |
| Ben Clymer | . Right. So even those |
| Jeff Hess | as iconic designs, they have held their own. And a great six two six three is for sure gonna cost a hundred thousand. |
| Ben Clymer | Right. Okay, so let's jump into the the other I would say you know there are many icons from Rolex, no no doubt, but I would say the other pillar is the Submariner. So you're wearing a 6200 right now. |
| Jeff Hess | I'm wearing 6200. So you know, arguably one |
| Ben Clymer | of the, not arguably, indeed one of the first submariners. Where's the submarket these days |
| Jeff Hess | ? The submarket, I think |
| Jeff Hess | , is a little bit different. It's more of a watch for a scholar because there are a lot of different iterations. We start talking about different bezels, different hands, different dial configurations, guilt dials, mat dials. I think there's a little bit of been a little bit of a pullback on guilt watches. |
| Ben Clymer | Why is it? You know, again |
| Jeff Hess | , I think to some degree, a lot of the knowledge that you and I learned from forums and that is starting to go away. And you don't, you know, social media has been fantastic for the watch community, and we've all met so many people, but some of the discourse has dissipated. So st understanding and learning the nuances of guilt dials and radium loom and different hands, Mercedes hands and pencil hands, and the different bezels and red triangles and no-hash bezels, that requires a different level of discourse that we don't see all that much on Instagram, for example |
| Ben Clymer | . So vintage collector |
| Jeff Hess | s in particular embrace the stories and the narratives behind the watch. And when I think about a submariner, in particular a big crown, I think about how has that reference entered society? It entered society through this cultural icon called James Bond. And that feeling of feeling like James Bond and having, you know, your sleeve roll up and seeing seeing that submariner that was worn in Goldfinger and Thunderbore. I think that just has never-ending staying power. So I think these the great examples of some of the rare submariners are always going to be held in high regard and always in demand. Ten years from now, 12 years from now, a great Rolex submariner from the 1960s is always going to be an aspirational piece. You know, that's the other thing. We think about collectors today and aspirate the word aspirational. When you and I were collecting years ago, if you you didn't typically start with a screw pusher mark one tangent |
| Jeff Hess | . That was the aspirational Dayt |
| Jeff Hess | ona. You collected a Daytona and you always wanted to move up the chain and maybe you got a big maybe you started with a Zenith |
| Jeff Hess | Daytona and then you moved into a |
| Jeff Hess | 6263 big Red. And then when you got there, you wanted to climb that arc and you wanted a Paul Newman. And I know I remember your pumper pusher, Paul Newman. And then what did you want? You wanted to move up the chain even more. And your aspirational piece was the real grail, which was a Mark I, screwpusher, panda, 6263, Paul Newman. I'm not sure that same level of the same kind of aspirations exist with the modern collector and a lot of the new collectors that have entered our hobby. You this is why I think maybe the aspirational Daytona now is a rainbow |
| Ben Clymer | . It's very, very different than it on |
| Jeff Hess | ce was. Yeah, and and I guess the question |
| Ben Clymer | is is like, you know, how how will all this resonate with the generation I would say younger than us, one generation beneath us? And I think that that's the thing that I still like haven't really wrapped my head around because there's so many guys now that guys and gals that are getting into watches and like they're okay, maybe they want a 57-11 or 58-11, because 5711 is out of production, or a 5167, or a 50 16202, or maybe the the holy grail is the rainbow or something like that. Do you think the James Bond thing means as much to them as it does to us? Paul Newman, we agree, probably does not, because like he's he's he was a real person, not a character. Paul James Bond is around, so to speak. Do you think it resonates the same way? |
| Jeff Hess | I it probably doesn't. Right. |
| Jeff Hess | But the question is, um, while on one hand it's so wonderful to see all these new people coming into our hobby, it's an explosive growth and demand |
| Ben Clymer | . Will how |
| Jeff Hess | many of them will take the time to start to become educated about the nuances that vintage brings with it. And in the absence of that, it won't be incredibly appealing |
| Jeff Hess | . But once you get into it, it's like art |
| Jeff Hess | history. You start getting into the different dials and the different iterations and bezels and hands, and it becomes this incredibly fascinating journey. And I have to believe |
| Jeff Hess | that as the |
| Jeff Hess | speculative buyers start to drift away a little bit because prices have pulled back, that a |
| Jeff Hess | lot of the real true collector |
| Jeff Hess | s, if I can use that expression, will go back to appreciating and doing the scholarship that it takes to start to really enjoy the the prospect of buying old subs and old Daytonas and old GMTs. |
| Ben Clymer | Yeah. And so where I mean we'll just keep going through the model list just because why not? GMTs have always played a second pivotal to to some mariners, for better or worse. Where's that market today |
| Jeff Hess | ? Softer. Definitely a retreat. The interesting thing is there is a significant narrowing in the gap between guilt and MAT dial, and that may actually be very relevant to what we were just discussing. Guilt dials used to be at least two, three X um from a MAT tile. I don't see that as much. A mat tile is easier to buy. You don't have to loop the dial to the extent you would a guilt dial. You're not worrying about spider cracks. You're not worrying about necessarily radium loom or um so it's easier |
| Jeff Hess | . Um and perhaps that's why it's been more read |
| Jeff Hess | ily embraced now and the gap has narrowed. I think there are fewer people focusing on guilt GMTs than on MAT dial GMTs. Um which in a way aga |
| Jeff Hess | in I hope changes over time. Yeah. |
| Jeff Hess | Because you and I have also gone down the road of looking at double Swiss and chapterings and all the different crown guards. And that's such a that's an exciting it's fun. It's an exciting fun journey. Yeah. I mean we've spent hours and hours studying exclamation points below the six and chapter rings and um fat font bezels and you don't have that as much with mat dials. So with mat dials you can get the experience of vintage without having to put in quite the same level of scrutiny. |
| Ben Clymer | Yeah. And I think we're seeing a |
| Jeff Hess | little of that. It's a little easier. Yeah. And |
| Ben Clymer | do you think it it has anything to do with the fact, because if you look at the contemporary Rolex, like the Pepsi, the modern day GMT, has quite a few variations: gold, non-gold, uh, you know, uh Batman, Pepsi, et cetera. Yeah. Left hand, right hand, whatever. And so that there's like quite a bit of a market there, but on modern contemporary subs, there's like really not. There's not that many options with contemporary subs. So it's almost like you can see that date or no d |
| Jeff Hess | ate. Right. Yep. You know what's also, I guess, a couple of you trigger a few, a few thoughts. The date just so the date just is Rolex's best Sure. And why hasn't that really ever been embraced to the same degree as some of the more complicated Daytonas that we've seen, some of the more complicated submariners that we've seen. And that's something you always have to think about because it's such an iconic reference. It's the De Chuff, Winston Churchill wore a De Chus. Yeah. It always stood for stability and greatness and maturity. Um but I guess and to some degree it became known as the watch that your grandfather wore. |
| Ben Clymer | Yeah. Why does the Explorer not I mean The Explorer is a date just with a beautiful dial. Like the Explorer is like so many guys that I know that are some of the most tasteful men in the world all wear 1016s or even contemporary explorers. Like, why has there never been a million dollar explorer, as far as I know? |
| Jeff Hess | Yep, there haven't been. The only explanation I can give, because you're right, it doesn't really make sense. There's a lot of scholarship on 1016s. Um, so there's a whole lot to dive into. It can be a very interesting subject. There are early explorers with chapter rings, there are early explorers with different loom, there are later disc uh explorers. So I always likened it to size that 36 millimeters is still not quite a 40 millimeter steel sports model. Yeah, |
| Ben Clymer | no bezel. No bezel. |
| Jeff Hess | But it is grounded in incredible history. I mean, Sir Edmund Hillary and Tenzing, Norway, and Rolex making a watch to celebrate this great climb up a giant mountain. Incredibly cool. |
| Ben Clymer | Yeah, I think I mean I as as is well documented, the Explorer was my first Rolex. I I have a few of them still. Like if you look at the really weird freaky, you know, kind of like off the reservation example, space dwellers and white dials and like you see these things come up at auctions, like like mid-1s, you know, for these things. I'm just like, wow, like if that were Samara, that'd be three million dollars. You know, if that were Daytona, it'd be more than that. And it's just funny that the Explorer never really caught the wave of like the the I don't want to say the real money because this is all real money, but like the money that is kind of like holy shit, this is a this is a meaningfully expensive thing at this point |
| Jeff Hess | . Same thing for the day trust. I'm not a hundred percent, I don't really have an answer for you. In a way it's unfair because you have all this history, all this story, all the different iterations. It's as iconic as it gets. I guess I would point to size that 36 millimeters for a while, especially during the real steel sports model craze, if you will, in recent years, that was all about 39 to 41 millimeter watches, 40 millimeter watches. And 36 takes a little getting used to. |
| Ben Clymer | Yeah. So I mean, I think, you know, we're not here to predict the future or guarantee anybody's return on anything. But like to me, as I said earlier in in in the episode, like it it feels like sports vintage relics is kind of coming back to some degree. I I've been have very good friends that are like you know, they used to own a ton of stuff and now they're kinda dipping a toe again. |
| Jeff Hess | I see it unequivocally. Yeah. So I mean so what |
| Ben Clymer | are some of the things that you still feel are like really undervalued? I mean, we just had date just and explorers, but what else and what specific examples? |
| Jeff Hess | Well, I mean, going back to GMTs, there'll always be somebody that wants an original vintage GMT. I mean, if you bought the steel ceramic GMT, eventually it seems very natural that you'd aspire to owning an original GMT from the 60s or for even from the 70s. So my money would still be there. |
| Ben Clymer | My GMTs. It would be. So GMTs are the buy? |
| Jeff Hess | GMT the buy because I think there's been a more meaningful pullback. Subs you might say the same. Daytonas, I feel like are the safer play, but they haven't pulled back quite to the same Dayton |
| Ben Clymer | 's would be the hold, maybe. Yeah, the Daytonas |
| Jeff Hess | are the hold, but I would still say to somebody, by all means, if you love a a Da |
| Jeff Hess | ytona, um it's a safe bet |
| Jeff Hess | . Yeah. In vintage Role |
| Ben Clymer | x right now? Is there something that you just think is too too hot and overinflated |
| Jeff Hess | ? I can't think of anything that's really a sell. What will be interesting is the Milgauss, the 6541. We just saw this incredible example sell for $3 million. Right, |
| Ben Clymer | which is like a one-off result, right? One off result. |
| Jeff Hess | Correct. But it takes two to tango. Right. So we do know that there is now um a new spotlight placed on six 6 five5 four4 on1s. And it's going to be very interesting to see what happens, even in this coming auction season, what will happen with those watches. Those are super rare. |
| Ben Clymer | Yeah, but I mean how like how how do you actually, in your in your new role at it So'utshe otherase, people like is how would if somebody came in with a similar watch to the one that Philip sold for whatever it was, three million dollars, what would your estimate be on that watch |
| Jeff Hess | ? You couldn't go anywhere near there, of course. I'd still take a can more conservative route, may sound funny to say that, but I think you know, a milgaus to 6541, it's better to play it safe and say traditionally that was always a very rare watch, very hard to come by. I've never had the ability to own one. They were always out of reach. Um but I would probably say an estimate would be two hundred to four hundred thousand. |
| Ben Clymer | Right. So I mean a fraction of what it was. A fra |
| Jeff Hess | ction of what it was. Yeah. And I I think like that |
| Ben Clymer | that's the thing that I think is so confusing to vintage Rolex is right like the these these like seemingly trivial differences make a difference of 10x in let's say in this case of a milgauss |
| Jeff Hess | . And that that I'm sure you can understand |
| Ben Clymer | is scary to people. It is. Well, look |
| Jeff Hess | , in the case of the mill gouse, it wasn't a good seller when it was or when it originally left the factory. R |
| Ben Clymer | ight. And like any other normal |
| Jeff Hess | company, it didn't sell well and they sold less. Ye |
| Ben Clymer | ah. Fast forward years later. It's the same |
| Jeff Hess | thing with Paul Newman dials. Those were poor sellers. |
| Ben Clymer | Right. You know, dealers ended up |
| Jeff Hess | swapping dials out because they couldn't sell the exotic dial. |
| Ben Clymer | In in in many ways, like the original rainbow was a really poor seller as well. You know, it's it's not so uncommon with Rolex to see that happen. Um so what's exciting you in vintage Rolex these days? Um as a person |
| Jeff Hess | . Look, I've always been a uh a guilt submariner collector |
| Ben Clymer | . Yeah. Um I love |
| Jeff Hess | the history. It really, to me, it is the epitome of greatness when it comes to dive watch. So many brands have their own version of a dive watch, and I view it the Submariner as absolutely the gold standard. Some of the early small crowns, I mean having a 6204, I don't like using the word important when it comes to watches. I think we overuse that in the industry a little bit. That watches generally, in my view, aren't really important except in rare instances. And a 6204, for example, is the very first submariner. That is the |
| Jeff Hess | birth of the dive watch by |
| Jeff Hess | Rolex. That is just that's astonishing. How important would you feel to have the very first submariner? It had pencil hands, it had a unique bezel. Ye |
| Ben Clymer | ah, totally different. I feel that way about |
| Jeff Hess | the 6200. It's why I think this watch is so extraordinary. So I think early subs are still a great passion for me. Um and I'm just a big believer in them. There's so much history there and there's so much to understand |
| Ben Clymer | . Yeah. Um so you know the the the last guest that we had last week's episode was was w was with Ferdy Porsche. And you know, I think in many ways I view Porsche as the Rolex of cars, right? You have these iconic designs. The 9-11, in my opinion, is the Samaritan or Daytona of cars. And you see these kind of this incremental change of like the 9-11 today looks a hell of a lot like the 9-11 from 1964. What what is it about Rolex that that feels so similar in that way |
| Jeff Hess | ? One of the things that I've always loved about Rolex as a company and as a brand, is their steadfast practice to ensure that changes are done incrementally. It's really always been an evolution and not a revolution. You very rarely see big radical changes. In truth, it's one of the reasons why the new emoji Rolex is sort of so crazy, because people can't believe that Rolex actually did that. They really |
| Ben Clymer | cannot believe that. They went off the beaten path |
| Jeff Hess | , which is so unusual for them. But typically, Rolex takes these tried and true iconic formulas, their Daytonas, their GMTs, their submariners, and they do very minor tweaks, very gradual incremental changes. So in a way, it it feels very safe also, because you know Rolex isn't gonna go way off the beaten path except in very rare instances. It's always these small incremental changes. And I think that's why you see a lot of these references have staying power over decades, not years, but generations. I mean, the modern sub doesn't look that dramatically different than the sub from nineteen sixty. Yep. Um and I think there's a lot to be said about that. |
| Ben Clymer | Yeah, and I'll I'll ask you, who, you know, a friend who I consider a real expert here, the same kind of questions I asked Ferdy last week about, you know, his family's company. So you know he's he's driven every car uh made by Porsche effectively. And you know, his answer to what what do you think is is kind of the ultimate modern Porsche was the um 911 R, 991 R, which is you know a car that came out 10 years ago, roughly. Um, what is your greatest Rolex ever made? Having owned so many of them, and if you haven't owned them, you've certainly been around them in your career at analog shift and Phillips and certainly Sutherbees. |
| Jeff Hess | . Vintage as well You're saying the greatest. I think for me it would be a big crown submariner. |
| Ben Clymer | Yeah. Any particular reference or |
| Jeff Hess | um 6538s, 5510s. |
| Ben Clymer | Yeah. It's the watch that James Bond |
| Jeff Hess | wore. I hate to go back to that. Look, how many how many guys always aspired to be that James Bond character? Yeah. You know, cool and calm in the face of danger, um relaxed under pressure, um suave and debonair and you know that notion of his wearing a white dinner jacket in thunder in uh goldfinger and using a zippo lighter to look at the time. |
| Ben Clymer | Got it. And is there a contemporary or more recent Rolex that that really has attracted people say from the 80s through today |
| Jeff Hess | ? The new Lamont Daytona |
| Ben Clymer | ? Yeah. Spectacular. Yeah. Yeah, but actually in the episode with Freddy Porsche, we both actually plead into the camera to to get that watch. Yeah. |
| Jeff Hess | Well let me plead into the camera too. Desperately want it. Yeah. Um fantastic. And again, it really represents Rolex sort of embracing this notion of vintage designs. And it's f a little bit of a change where Rolex says, hey, we recognize that there's a big collector community out there that loves these things. And we're gonna we're gonna work with that a little bit. That's very exciting. And I think that's why the vintage community is all lusting after that watch. Yeah |
| Ben Clymer | . Yeah. So tell us a little bit as we wrap up here about what to expect from Sotheby's and then also what to expect from from Rolyfest, if there is something to expect |
| Jeff Hess | . Well I'll take it in reverse order |
| Jeff Hess | . Um definitely want to do another Rolyfest. It was a great, proud moment. You know, it it does bear noting. We always talk about values of watches. And |
| Jeff Hess | this year at Roly Fest, when |
| Jeff Hess | I stood there in front of 175 people from all over the world, I really realized, as corny as it sounds, there is such value in the commun |
| Ben Clymer | ity and such value in |
| Jeff Hess | the relationships that are made. You had people from all walks of life connecting. And I always like to say that watches don't just tell time, they connect people. And I think the vintage Rolex community is particularly special in that regard, that people flew all over the world to be in a room together. And I think about the value and the way in which that community has enriched my life. And I'd say we spend a lot of time talking about dollar values of watches. And we shouldn't forget that the value in the relationships that we make can be just enormously enriching, whether that's just on a friendship level or people you end up doing business with, which I certainly have done. So Rolly Fest, definitely gonna do it again. Probably not this year. It's an enormous undertaking. It's really almost a year to plan, but there will definitely be another Rolley Fest in America. It could be that there's another Rolly Fest outside of America at some point in 2024, thinking about that, working on a few ideas. Um Sotheby's, I think we're rolling into a super exciting auction season, a great combination of modern watches, independent watches, and some great vintage as well. I'm largely responsible for working on uh the December 7th New York sale, live in New York. And I think you're going to see some a breadth of pieces, some incredible vintage Rolex, some fantasti |
| Jeff Hess | c high complications from |
| Jeff Hess | independence, some terrific vintage paddock. I think you're gonna I think there's gonna be something for everyone and super exciting. I'm really looking forward to it. |
| Ben Clymer | Cool. Jeff thank you so much for joining us and uh we'll talk soon. |