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Previewing Watches And Wonders 2023 With Ben and Danny

Published on Thu, 23 Mar 2023 13:04:21 +0000

A preview for the start of Watches and Wonders 2023 and all the watches we hope to see released this year.

Synopsis

In this special preview episode of Hodinkee Radio, host James Stacy reunites with Ben Clymer and Danny Milton to discuss the upcoming Watches and Wonders Geneva show. The conversation explores the evolution of watch trade shows over the past 15+ years, contrasting the historic SIHH (Salon International de la Haute Horlogerie) and Baselworld with today's combined Watches and Wonders format.

Ben shares fascinating stories from the early days of digital watch journalism, recalling when online publications were initially excluded from booths and asked to pretend they represented print magazines like GQ. He describes how Hodinkee became one of the first digital-first publications welcomed at these exclusive events, providing the watch community with real photos and hands-on coverage rather than just press materials. The team reflects on memorable moments, like the 2013 unveiling of the platinum Daytona with its ice blue dial and brown ceramic bezel—a watch that initially disappointed collectors expecting a steel version but has since appreciated significantly in value.

The hosts discuss their expectations for the 2023 show, speculating about potential releases from Rolex (possibly titanium Daytonas), Tudor (potential chronograph updates or technical dive watch extensions), and Patek Philippe. They note how the market has shifted in recent months, with previously impossible-to-find pieces becoming slightly more available as the speculative frenzy has cooled. The episode captures both the excitement and exhaustion of covering these intensive week-long events, where the team will be producing daily episodes from Geneva, offering listeners unprecedented behind-the-scenes access to one of horology's most important annual gatherings.

Transcript

Speaker
James Stacy Hey, it's me, James Stacy, and today we're kicking off a special series of Hodenky Radio that is tied to the annual Geneva Watch show, Watches and Wonders. I know it's been a while since you heard from us in this format, but Watches and Wonders kicks off on March 27th, and we're planning to do daily episodes from the show, so stay tuned. To get into the big show spirit, I asked Ben and Danny to jump on a mic and chat about what it's like to go to a show, how these sorts of events have changed over the years, and what we're hoping to see from some of the biggest and most secretive exhibitors at the show. One quick note that this episode includes a bit of adult language, but hey, I've got to be in Geneva any minute now, so let's get to it. Alright, Ben Danny, welcome back to Hodinki Radio. It's been a little while. I'm thrilled to see you guys on Zoom and e even more thrilled to know that I'll see both of you in Geneva in in really just a few days here. Uh how are we doing today? I'm psyched. I am psyched. Yeah. I'm just happy to be back on Hodinky Radio, James, to be honest with you. Me too. I'm thrilled. It's been it's been a season where it just got so busy that we decided we we would take a little pause and decide what the show needs to be. But if the show is anything, it should be like frantic, coffee fueled kind of reports from the big show in Geneva. So this is kind of our preview episode. You know, I think we probably have a handful of folks on the site these days that that maybe only know the show from last year, don't know Basel World, don't know some of the the precursors, and certainly we have some great stories to kind of fill you in on the the the back catalog of that existence. But Ben, you you're one of the few guys I know who's done like several more shows than me within the modern like digital context of watch trade shows. And then Danny, you had your first one last year, so I thought that kind of gave us a a nice kind of bracketing of of the show experience. Oh, is it ever. But it is it is like the best type of work in my mind because it you're solely focused on watches for you know five days or whate
Ben Clymer ver. Yes. That's that's all you care about for for the four or five days or however long you you stay. Some people s come in for a day, some people stay for like a week and a half. It's it's really wh
James Stacy atever you you want it to be. You've probably had at least two or three more Basel Worlds than I ever did and, of course that's now in all of our past. And you certainly were at SHH for several years before I got there. Yeah, that was the anti Canada thing, right? There were n there were no Canadians. You know what? We're just we're too casual. We don't under you know, we're not as luxurious. So, you know, and I they also didn't like how much carpaccio I ate. So I mean it i it all comes down to uh dollars and cents on that side. But why don't you give you the th those in the audience your, perspective on shows and maybe how that's changed in the past what what's gotta be fifteen, sixteen years. S
Ben Clymer ure. Putting it like really colloquially and easy, this is a trade show. Like this is this is your C C E S if you're in electronics, this is your Detroit Auto Show if you're in cars, whatever. This is when all the new stuff kind of hits from all the brands. And historically, there were two shows. There was the SIHH Salon International Hot Virology said without an accent, I won't even try. That was like the really high-end stuff, the Vacherons, the Automar Piguets, the Cartier is basically Richmond kind of uh centric. And then you had Basel World, which is the historic kind of trade show. And that at in in my heyday, in my day, kind of represented Patek, Rolex, Tudor, Omega, LVMH brand, so Tag Hoyer, Bulgari, etc. I mean, really like the the big, the big, big show. And they they kind of were were uh at odds with each with each other in some ways. So the SIHH was really very fancy., if I may say And the carpaccio that James is referring to is Carpaccio served to you for free all day long within the Pal Expo in Geneva. They and they wouldn't cut you off. Well they they cut James off because it got pretty weird for for a minute there. So you asked for my passport. Yeah, exactly. So carpaccio, but also sushi, I mean wine whenever you want, coffee, espresso, whatever, all served for you by like kind of like uh I I would say like region agnostic, but really beautiful people. And like, where do these people come from? Like, are they Swiss? Are they German? Are they French? Are they like who are they and where do they come from? Turns out they're just models that they hired to serve you food. Um, but so basically the the SIH took place in early January in Geneva, which is like potentially the worst time to go to Geneva because it's just like slushy and cold, but whatever. And then Basel World took place in the usually the mid to end of March. And that at times you could get some really lovely weather and have a beer outside. And Basel World was really kind of casual and fun. You could kind of do whatever you wanted because there were no kind of preset schedules. The SIHH was like, okay, you are there with those groups, the FHH people. Uh and like, you know, they they take that stuff seriously. So you gotta be at the dinners, you gotta be in a suit and tie. Um, you know, now now the the two have combined into something called the Watches and Wonders show, um, which actually I didn't go to last year solely for for personal reasons, all great personal reasons, but uh I'm excited to see the combined show. But I think it's important to know, like, you know, in in the early days of of of me, the early days of Hodinki, like digital was was really kind of cast aside. I mean, William, William Roar, William Messina, who's a friend of the show and longtime friend, you know, he tells me stories of early on when he was at time zone, you know, in 2000 and whatever, 2005, 6, whatever. And he would be asked to leave booths because he was digital. And then in in my my early years, when like Hodinki was starting to become a thing, I was in fact the the first kind of digital guy or gal to get invited into the booth, but I was told by the largest brands and brands that we all know, including some by publicists that are still at those brands, like, hey, can you just tell my boss if you get asked that you're actually writing for GQ or Esquire or whatever? And I would be like, well, I'm I'm not. They're like, no, we know that. But like just say that so we don't get in trouble for having him here. And I was like, okay, that like that doesn't make me feel great about myself, but whatever. And then a few years after that, they would say, actually, like we we want you here, and it would be like us, and maybe maybe Ariel from a blog to watch, or Frank from Monochrome, or Robert Young. Like those were the kind of four kind of like digital publications that kind of first were welcomed in. Yeah. And it it was one of those things where like I remember taking a picture of like the the the reedition or like the the revival of the Orange Hand Explorer in the year 220021 02, 2011, probably even earlier, maybe 2010. And I was actually wearing a freccione at the time. And it was one of those things where like it was the only picture on the internet anywhere of that watch in the metal. Everybody else, the revolutions, the watch times, the whoever, and those are all our friends, like they were just taking press packs and putting it on their website, if at all. They were really there to to publish the print magazine. So you know in the in the early days of of digital and blogs, it was it was up to to us and the and the guys that I mentioned to kind of say like, hey, okay, here's the information for sure, but like do you actually s want to see what this thing looks like? And so I would carry around a camera and at times a little handicam and take videos of this stuff. And I think that was probably those were some of my fondest memories of of these trade shows because like you were really, really like providing the entire world, the entire digital world with the only pictures of these things that haven't been like hyper-produced by some agency somewhere in Switzerland that makes it look like a cartoon or a caricature of itself, you know? And so it it really felt like those were like the most exciting times because like you were really doing like service journalism. Like we weren't selling anything at the time. We were just saying like, hey, here's the stuff. Uh and people got really excited about that. And then of course as the team grew and and you know life kind of trots along, you know, we became really welcomed and say, actually, would you guys like the first appointment of the of the week or or whatever? Um and you know, to this day, like I, you know, because of COVID and because of because of my my daughter, frankly, last year being born, I haven't been in in a long time. So I am genuinely excited to to get back there. Mostly because I'm gonna be there with the star of Watches in the Wild, uh Road Through America, Danny Milton.. Oh Oh boy. I know boy. So like to walk around with him and just kind of live in his shadow for a week is gonna be pretty fun. I'll let you come along. It'll it'll be a good time
James Stacy . I got I bought Danny a a whole pack of Sharpies just in case. Make sure he's at least loaded up for the autographs, no doubt. You know, the it it's it's it's fun to talk about being excited for the show because as much uh as it is this sort of like ball of stress that you kind of wade into as the new year starts, it it it is like the Olympics or like the World Series or whatever. Like you see all your friends, Super Bowl. Everybody the Super Bowl, yeah. You see everybody's there. Everybody's on like a similar wavelength because they've dropped everything else in their life to focus on watches and and you know, Geneva and that kind of thing. And there there really are some like special moments. I remember way back in the day, I guess this would have been twenty thirteen, to the morning on in Baza World, waiting in line with everybody else that wanted to get in first so that you could get in front of the Rolex booth and they would open up the kind of shades on the vitrines and you could see what the new models were. And remember standing there and seeing the the platinum Daytona. Oh boy. Which I guess would have been yeah, twenty thirteen. Twenty thirteen, ten years ago. Yeah, which would have been my my second time at Basel World. The everybody was there, you were there, you know, a bunch of our uh colleagues both old and new were there and and just thinking like well this is there's like an actual buzz here. And if you love watches, and and I assume if you're listening to this podcast you do, it's so much fun. It's complicated and it and and the rest of it, but it's so much fun. That year
Ben Clymer m our good friend Stevie Stevie Pulverant and I have have a or he often tells a story about that year because like nobody was more excited for 2013 than I was. Like I I I love the Daytona to this day. I was wearing one recently but like I really loved it back then. Like the vintage Daytona, double Swiss underline. I know that was when I was like kind of nerding out about the early stuff. And I was like, man, like this is the 50th anniversary of the Daytona. Like imagine what they're gonna do for us, thinking that they would give us the steel ceramic or whatever. And they gave us the platinum ice blue dial brown ceramic bezel, which at the time was like a total dog. And I think like that is it's it's still to this day. I actually love the watch now, but like those watches, you know, the retail was 75,000. They were trading as low as like $40,000 for a long, long time. They just like nobody wanted them because like because look at it, you know? Right. And of course like 2020 hindsight now they traded for well above retail. But like that was like I was genuinely up like kind of forlorn. I was upset because I was just like, what? Like, why would Rolex do this to to us on the on the 15th anniversary of the Daytona? And then you realize like they do it because they can and because it's fun. You know? And it's it's it's like that's part of their charm. It's like they they don't need to give you the steel Daytona. Like they're gonna do that on their own time. And that came you know two or three years later. Yeah. Um, but it's just like it's one of those moments that like will always like live in my my memory of like, okay, like this is this is a moment. A, I mean, okay, having the ceramic bezel on on the Daytona, which like sounds so silly if you're talking about any other brand, like putting a ceramic bezel on a watch, like kind of who cares. But in the Rolex world, I mean that is as big as it gets. Uh and that was a that was a seminal moment for me as a as a
James Stacy as a fan of of Rolex. Yeah, I've I'm I'm curious have, either of you ever seen um been outside of your say your normal circles? Uh a casual encounter, have you ever come across one of the fifty thin or the platonas that people call them? Oh for sure. And in in you
Ben Clymer know, the the other part of of my job that you guys don't see and you guys at home certainly don't see is like hanging out with like investor types and like uh the plat the plateau is very, very popular in like the the rich finance guy set for sure uh in the New York and LA area. I'm not saying it's cool, but like it it is. It's like you know, if you have a like it's like a Nautilus or an aqua nut like that's another thing that like a rich guy might might have. So I've I've come across them many times. And uh you know the different dial I mean we this is not a podcast about the Platinum daytona, although maybe we should do that later. The different dial variations that came out with later, including the Arabic dial, like it ended up becoming like there there could be a story about just the this reference platinum Daytona for sure. Yeah, I had a I knew a collector who I won't, you know, call out here by name, but he had one that he bought, but he kept it in a drawer and opened the drawer and showed it to me in said drawer and then closed the drawer. So it wasn't a very particular Yeah, that he really cared about. And I think I I reached out to him later to ask about it and he was like, Yeah, no, I s I sold it. So I don't know if I don't know if he sold it 'cause the market went up on it or not, but um was definitely one that he wasn't wearing. He was also more of like a vintage collector than than modern the at end of the day. It's it's one of those things that like you I don't want to say you kind of have to have if you're a Daytona guy, but you know, again, like I I remember seeing them on this lit this email list that I'm on that I'm sure many of our listeners are on, where they kind of like it's like kind of gray market or used or whatever washes. And I there was one available at forty five thousand dollars, literally. And it was like like new with box, whatever, and this was probably twenty seventeen. I'm like, ah, I don't know. Is it worth forty five grand, you know? And now it's probably worth I don't know, three times that. But you just you just never know. I mean like we never could have predicted exactly what what happened over the last few years. Right
James Stacy . Yeah. I remember uh uh years and years and years ago, uh when I lived in Vancouver, I had flown to Toronto probably like around Christmas or something like that, visit some family. And uh, you know, being a budget-minded individual, I I took like a uh bus from the airport to a rental spot and I'm standing in this like discount. I think it's literally the brand was discount rental, something like that. And I'm standing waiting to get a Honda Civic to have for a week or whatever to drive around in the snow, and the other guy in there has one of these platinum Daytonas on his wrist. And I was like, I'm sure that's fake, right? And he's waiting for a car. I'm waiting for a car. We're just standing there. So I go like, hey, that's that's an incredible watch. I've never seen one before. His first response was not like thank you. It was not like, oh hi. It was it's real. Do you want to he do wanna feel it? It's real. And I go, oh, so you've been asked. And so he like just standing in a in a rental you know location on Dixie Road in Toronto, the guy hands me his platinum daytona. He doesn't know And he's like, see how heavy it is? It's it's the real one. I didn't buy a fake one. I'm like, yeah, I I yeah, it's cool, it's great. And I'm chatting too, and of course, like it was his rental location and he owns several other ones in the city as well. I think that was the only time I've seen one like outside of a a watch circle where you might expect or or wouldn't be surprised to see one. Right. But yeah, that was such a special moment. And and I feel like I if we sat here long enough I could come up with twenty or thirty others, some of them about like interpersonal hilarity between the Hodinky team. I g you know, I joined in for Basel World in twenty eighteen with the team and for Basel World unlike s uh the the Geneva shows, you're not in a hotel or at least we weren't. We were in kind of shared spaces, Airbnbs, that sort of thing. So you had a lot of like team time and it was a bit of those like camp moments. Ye
Ben Clymer ah. So some someday we'll we'll write a book about it. And like there are just so many, so many great stories about like you know the the random kind of ragtag cast of characters that have come through the hodinky ranks the jacks of the world the cars of the world stevp of course it's just goofy i mean it as you said it's like summer camp or like you know uh you know freshman year like the first week freshman year where, it's just like what is happening? Yeah, a lot lot of fun stuff. But the trade shows are so exciting because it's just like I think I'm never better version of myself as a professional than when I'm in Geneva at one of these trade shows. It's like I just like a switch flips into me and it's like, let's fucking do this thing, you know? Yeah, you know, I try to kind of keep to myself and just kind of like live my own personal life as much as possible, you know, 51 out of 52 weeks of the year. Well, that one other week, it's like I'm on WhatsApp constantly talking to people. It's just so much fun, yeah. Uh, and it also it becomes a week where like from an editorial perspective, like you kind of define what's going to happen for the balance of the year. And so it's really important that that Hodinky really does stuff in a different way. And I think we always have done stuff in in a different way. And I
James Stacy think we'll we'll see that again this year. Yeah, and Danny, it was your first one last year. And I actually thought last year was a great show. There we had a huge turnout in terms of audience. Th there was no like loss of interest because the pandemic kind of pushed the shows out out of um th the face to face realm uh for some time. What was your you know, hearing the stories, probably hearing stories like the ones we just told for the last ten minutes, what was your experience when you actually got there? Like I I I felt the magic was there last year for sure. Yeah, you don't even have time to think
Ben Clymer about it. You just you're in it. I mean, because we when you walk into onto the trade show floor, it just it starts. You start, you have the appointments immediately, and you know, I kind of hung around with you a lot That's your first mistake, right? I I I learned that in hindsight, but uh that'll be corrected this year. But even when you're between appointments and you're between seeing watches and we're sitting down and eating carpaccio and and editing photos and stories simultaneously. You're you're literally just grinding the whole time. The the thing that I remember most is the flight back. Is I I unluckily sat next to the sweet older woman who wouldn't stop talking to me on the plane. And I could not have been more tired from everything we had just been through. And it was a daytime flight. And you know, I'm just I literally want to fall asleep. And for f for four hours, it took me four hours before I had to let her know politely that what I had just done and why I cannot talk to her anymore. I am s I can't wait for this year because of last year. And you're right, there was there's a magic to it. Um you see everybody from around the industry, people that you basically interact with only on social media all the time. Or you just know their e their name from email. Ex or exactly, or from email and, you feel like you know them, even if you'd never met them in person. Yeah. Um I had a funny thing happen last year. I was celebrating my wedding anniversary while I was there. Uh and I posted something on Instagram that it was my anniversary and normally you'd get like comments on Instagram, but I was getting them shouted at me across the trade show floor, like like happy anniversary from like people like I I barely tangentially know. And that kind of thing. It
James Stacy feels good though, because you feel like you're part of something uh that that everybody there is sharing. And like I because there's such pride taken in the Switch watch industry from the Swiss perspective, everyone who's there, even if they don't necessarily write about or photograph watches or work for a watch brand is sort of like part of the vibe. Yeah. You enter the Pell X one, you kind of enter this bubble where like watches take on way more value or importance or fun than they really do in in in the normal world. And even in the world that we try to build with with Hodinky. And I'd I'd be super curious, like, are there specific brands, like specific meetings you're really pumped for? I'm gonna guess Rolex is important to Danny
Ben Clymer . That's just uh a feeling I have to uh just j just a little bit. I am like unreasonably excited to see what Rolex has up its sleeve this year. Especially coming off
James Stacy of that that Daytona conversation we just finished. Being the secrecy that the reveal is, you know, we're we finally see the end of the magic trick. The big
Ben Clymer one is obviously Rolex. Like that that that kind of goes without saying what has to be said. I mean, it is the watch industry in so many ways. Like what they do dictate. I mean, like, remember when the rainbow came out in twenty eighteen and now like there's rainbows on like Mosers and like you know, like odd odd things like that. Like what Rolex does, other people will do over the next half a decade plus. So from like an industry kind of like coverage perspective, which I guess that's what we do, uh what Rolex does like i is super important. And then of course, like just as a fan, like Rolex is an important brand as a collector. Um so there there's no question that um that Rolex is is a huge, huge part of of the story, no matter what else is going on. Tutor would be another one. I mean, as as a as a as a lover of tutor, and I know I have at least one other tutor lover on this call, like that that's another one because it's just like it's it's Rolex, but like fun, yeah, you know, just like Rolex with like 20% more fun. And the like great personalities behind the brand that we know super well and have historically for a long time. Um the the one that has always meant a lot to me, and granted it's been a few years because of COVID, it' Patsek. And historically, Hudinky has had one of the first appointments with Patek year after year uh to see this stuff. And sometimes we sit with uh a gentleman there who is, you know, basically one of the technical director as well as some other people. And you really you are reminded, or I should say I am reminded of how special Pat Tech Philippe is. Um and I think it's really especially in the recent years, it's really easy to just come like, oh yeah, they make the Nautilus and the Aquanaut, which are like undoubtedly cool watches. But like they do some banana stuff all the time and they don't they look th they're the they're the Rolex of the high-end world. Like they don't shout from the rooftop about all that they're doing, but like they're quietly crushing it all the time. And every appointment that I've had with them over the past fifteen years reminds me of that. And I always leave that booth more than almost any other booth wanting something that I just saw. Um, because it's like it is, it is, you know, it's Pat Tech Philippe, it's not a watch. Um, it's something else. Um, and then you know, again, this will be the first year where it's combined. And it's it'll be weird for me because like the other brands that I get excited about, like, for example, well, Omega. I love Omega, as I'm sure many of you know. They won't be there. Othemar B gay will not be there. You know, so like those guys will be notable absences. But of course you have in their stead, you have Longenson, who, you know, I just adore, and Cartier, of course. I mean that there's L and Bachron to some degree. Like there are lots of things to look forward to. And then of course the independence. And I think like the the fun thing about the these shows back in the day, like way back in the day, it was like getting a beer with Philippe Dufour and like seeing Kari's personal so-and-so that like nobody knew he was making. And back then, nobody gave a shit. And that was really fun. And so, you know, it it's it's the combination of seeing like the most important introductions from the biggest brands in the world, like a Rolex or Paddock, and then just like hanging out with your bros like the Bart and Tim Grunfeld or or whatever. Mm-hmm. And so yeah, I mean the the big brands definitely matter a lot, but I mean, like it was at Bosal World where I met Red Chep for the first time. You know, and like you meet somebody like that, it's like, whoa, like this guy is a guy, and six years later, here he is. He's like the hottest watchmaker alive, you know. So it's just it's where everything happens. So I mean, you uh you just kind of have have to be there. We last year also didn't just stay inside the Pelexpo. Like we got around Geneva a bit, visited you know the guys over at MBNF. Uh speaking of Rezep, went over to his workshop and you just like hang out. You have a cup of coffee in the middle of the day. So it's great that the Pelexpo is is out there where the trade shows going on, but you need to get fresh air. Like you just have to or you won't you won't survive this thing. And being able to hit Old Town and and see some of these other folks is really like a highlight and and
James Stacy something that I'm looking forward to this year too. Yeah, and there's a couple like I would almost call them theaters of like Swiss watchmaking that exist within so now we have madhouse. No in the past we've gone to Mad Gallery this year we're going to Madhouse, which I'm quite excited about. Me to see uh MB and F stuff. But then you also get to go to like the home of Jorn, which is not a casual place. It's not a uh it's not like a uh a tech park or something like that. It's this basic building with the most amazing ceilings I've ever seen. And usually there's a leg of ham roughly half of my size that's being carved up. So you know I'm I'm around my spider senses are are tingling for that. And it there's an incredible library. He is one of the finest libraries of um of sort of books about horology and that sort of thing. So there are some experiences that you don't get anywhere else and and they don't have to be, you know, Jordan or MB and F. I'm also really pumped. I there's uh an ancillary show, like more of a public show called um time to watches and in there is also where Zinn shows off so I actually get to see Zinn in my hand you know once a year. They're a pretty tough brand to see in person. But they have some pretty cool stuff this year. Um, I'm I'm pretty pumped to see the new T fifty line. Um and then at the show, this is uh a a rare treat for me. Last year, due to COVID restrictions, the Patek meeting was limited to two people, and this year we aligned several meetings, but I get I get to go with Ben, which feels like an extra that's like that's like antique hunting with the with the right guy. I didn't know that. I I who approved that? Hey, you made me make the schedule, baby. You made the I also they still represent the kind of vestigial spine of um of Basel World. And and when you walk from the end there's like a a a hard line in the ground of this like r white kind of elven palace of watches and wonders and and of course it's still watches and wonders but you walk into a slice of old Baza world and you have uh Rolex, Tudor, Chopar and Patek all kind of in a row and and it's great. And yeah, I couldn't be more pumped for uh for Tudor to see what they came up with. I uh talk about a brand that's been on a run. I remember sitting at a dinner the first year I was ever went to Basel. Um I was staying in Zurich, took the train in for the day and then went to a dinner with Tudor, and that's where they showed off the first of the Black Bays. And I remember thinking, like, oh, so this is the kind of direction we're going, this is pretty cool. Um and and and then it it's they've been on a run since then for sure. So l let's explore that a little bit. I mean nobody's a bigger fan
Ben Clymer than of Tutor than I am. Like we you know with Russell uh Kelly, you know, we really kinda helped kind of bring them them back in in the US. The product has been so good, but do you feel the same attachment to the brand that you did five years a
James Stacy go? Oh for me the attachment's only deeper because I took like 10 years to finally buy one and I've only had it for a couple months now. I've got the Progos 39. Um I I think the brand is like refining their I hate the term but like their DNA their vibe and they're figuring out where it works but they still offer a big breadth. Yeah I mean look, I I am jaded
Ben Clymer AF, you know, uh after being me for fifteen years, you know. But like the the excitement around Black Bay, Black Bay fifty eight, even Tudor Heritage Chrono, which was I think probably over ten years ago at this point, not available in the US. I remember writing a story about them selling an anticorum like the first watch that sold in the US. You know, those really felt so fresh and so different than anything else in in in the in the watch world at that price point, you know? Particularly at any price point. Um, and they it really felt really, really special. And that was before a lot of the other kind of other brands, you know, the ones you would imagine have started to get into like the heritage stuff. It was before Rolex really started to pay attention to their own heritage from a product perspective. They were always aware of it, obviously. I would say six to ten years ago, I think for Tudor, for me, and again, this is my arc, not anybody else's, was the most exciting brand in the world. And that was just like that was amazing. And like there was it was in many ways more exciting to go to a tutor presentation when Davide was there. And it was just like, it was just energetic. I mean, it was just really magnetic. And I'm not saying the product has gotten worse. It hasn't. It's gotten better. But I just think that like and it's not their fault. I think it it's it's it's just the nature of watches today. It's like there's just so many more people in it. Like everything's been done. You really gotta push hard to to to kind of break through the the the noise. But yeah, though those years to me, as I said, six to ten years ago, nobody was doing like it tutor in that period to me was as good as it gets, uh, in my opinion, especially like the ear like the black black Bay, the Black Bay fifty eight, like Black Bay fifty eight, like I think that's a top five watch of all time for me. Um, just in terms of wearability and what it does. Um, just super special times for
James Stacy for me, in my vantage point. Yeah. No, I I don't disagree. I think I think speaking of the chronograph blue, I've got you know, we've got our our Rolex and Tudor prediction posts coming out probably around the same time as this episode, and that was my pick was you know, could we thirty nine the chronograph blue. And I don't even think it necessarily needs it, but it's also not a watch that they're, you know, promoting as kind of one of their flagships these days. It's still on the website, but I don't think it it it doesn't garner the same kind of attention it did, yeah. Call it eight to ten years ago. It the the the Chronos like
Ben Clymer never really like jumped to the forefront of the conversation with them for some reason. I I I I don't know why. You know, after the the heritage chronos. Um right. But yeah, I I don't I don't know why they they they in my opinion they've yet to crack the chrono nut. I think the size scares a lot of people off, um is my perspective on it, at least. I mean 'cause the heritage is one of the coolest watches in the Tudor catalog. I mean, the fact that it's still there, just sitting there, is kind of amazing to me. And I wonder if it's if it's ripe for a revamp. But yeah, when you look at the way that they do some of the the cases and the bracelets sometimes when the when it when we're talking about a forty one forty two millimeter watch the tutors can feel quite large. Yeah. Which was great with the diver, but I wonder if the chronograph sometimes feels even bigger. You know, as I say you to you guys often, like, know, it's always great to to frame everything like why it exists, why it shouldn't exist. Like it shouldn't exist because thinner watches are just better. Like we all know that. Like it's just better to wear, et cetera. It does exist and make sense for tutor because of course the big black cornographs historically, like this they have a precedent for making larger dimension cases than than Rolex. But imagine if they did uh you know a black bay chrono in the in the case dimension of a Daytona or something close to it, you know, and like how great of a watch would that be? Ye
James Stacy ah. It'd be amazing. It'd be great. Yep. I think I'm not even that much of a chronograph guy. And if uh if they decided to do something like the chronograph blue, uh the heritage in yeah, like a thirty n uh BB thirty nine case like kind of because they're the chronographs now are largely black bay inspired. Yeah. I I think there's a blending there to to speak to for sure. You know, I I guess we've already gotten into it, but any any other thoughts on on we can do some predictions. Obviously from our position we have access to know most of what is coming out on the twenty seventh. Uh so th w let's stick to things that we absolutely don't know, which would be protect, tutor, and rolex, I suppose. Yep. Um what would you what do you think we might see or what would you like to see? We could answer either question. Like you mentioned, James, we've been doing these like these Rolex tutor prediction stuff. Yeah, they should be up roughly around the same time as the episode. So it's maybe a teaser. Yeah, and even if the spoils it a little bit, whatever. This is fine.
Ben Clymer I would like to see titanium make its way into the Daytona. That'd be really a cool thing. I doubt it. And even if it does happen, my my prediction of what will happen is if it is titanium, it'll have the ice blue dial. That they'll just they'll they'll bring that in the fold. Why would they why would they put ice blue on titanium? Because nobody wants that. Okay. That that that was my my uh my brief for making the thing that's not a pr that's a prediction and not what I want is what would I not want and what would actually happen, and it's something like that. My my actual prediction was a dial that nobody asked for. So it it could be anything. It doesn't have to be ice blue, uh but a dial that nobody asked for. I I I love that like the assumption now is that Rolex is going to like give you the case material you want in a dial that you hate, uh, which is like not that far from the truth. But I mean I just historically, like realistically, like ice blue dial means platinum. So it it would be odd if they put it in titanium. But as you said, like they they do what they want to do. Maybe meteorite. Yeah, me meteorite would be interesting. You're probably right that something like that, even meteorite, is is relegated to something in a precious metal. Um and I honestly feel like the the deep sea that came out a couple months ago is probably just a teaser for something that'll happen five to ten years from now and not anything that's going to happen, you know, in the near term. But you know, one can dream. I would agree, honestly. I would agree. I mean I don't know anything truly. Uh I would agree that you know, titanium seems like the the next step. But weirdly, like for me, I don't I mean, I own several titanium watches, but like I don't think it's a particularly great material for watches. Like steel for it's more expensive, it's more scratch resistant, whatever, lighter. Um, but like steel's a great material. And steel to me is Rolex. And it also like at this point I either want it's like a stainless steel watch I can wear all the time that's like priced appropriately, or I want to feel the weight of a gold or precious metal, platinum, whatever. Titanium is so light, it like it almost is is jarring to a degree. And like for like the the part of the charm of Rolex is like you feel it and like the tactile nature of a Rolex, like the build quality is just extraordinary. I I don't I don't know that titanium is the metal for me, uh for for Rolex. I think you know, for a yeah, an AP or something that's like a little bit more uh it's just a different feel, a different vibe. I I I'm totally on board or an IWC or Porsche design or something technical. But yeah, I don't I don't know that I would get super excited by a titanium Rolex. I say that now and give me two weeks and I'll be like, you know, screaming from the rooftop about how amazing it is. Um but uh yeah, I I like that that would be I don't want to say disappointment, but that wouldn't get me super excited uh this year. Yeah, James, do you saw the deep sea and and and wore it? What does it
James Stacy feel like? This really what I want to know. Uh I mean it feels like a huge w like it feels like a huge there's no like b because there's a visual element to it's so big it has its own like zip code on your wrist. It's lighter than your brain tells you, but it also your brain tells you it should weigh more than a platinum daytonum. Right. You know, it should be a half a pound of watch and it's less than that. Um I think in the right scenario, you know, that being with a seven millimeter wetsuit, perfectly wearable for sure. But I would need to add a significant amount of padding to my wrist for it to make sense. But also, that's not you know, the point of that watch wasn't wearability. And I think the deeper every time you find a new layer, or every time I personally find a new layer of what they went through to make a watch that they're only going to make a few of, it's the most Rolex stuff ever. Is this watch. Despite the fact that the core of the brand sure is a submariner's a day date is a date just stuff like that. But the the like charm, the appeal is part of this is the secrecy and part of this is the ability that they can make a watch like this. There's only a few brands out there that could that that would bother and still have an audience for it. And I think they're they're the ones that are that have the most natural audience. I'd you know, I a very impressive watch that doesn't need to be on my wrist, but I do think that it's a suggestion that we might see more titanium or RLX from the brand. Yeah. Um, whether that's a brand new watch or or something more like you know, in my mind we haven't had a a forty millimeter, and this is in my prediction, but like we haven't had a forty millimeter sea dweller in a while. And I don't think we'll see it this year, which is why it makes a good prediction post. But I do think at some point there might be essentially a uh an everyday version of the deep sea challenge. That'd be pretty cool. I mean, I st
Ben Clymer ill now that we have a two-tone explorer, I mean I want to throw gold back in the mix if we're throwing predictions out there. Full gold, I'd actually buy it. Um but to your point, the some something that interests me about Rolex and I've had conversations about this is the fact that some of the watches that Rolex puts out there are limited in some fashion that's not stated. Like they don't intend to produce them forever from the moment they release them, but they'll never tell they'll never tell you that. Like the Stellos. Exactly. So there were the intention was never to have those run. And when they were quote unquote discontinued, that was always the plan from before it was released. Do you know that? And I find that to be I do know that. They told you that the plan was to always just have it run for a short period of time. For for some of those colors, yeah. Which I found to be pretty fascinating. Yeah. So so like a man a man or a woman in Switzerland told you that. Not necessarily employed by Rolex, but somebody in Switzerland told you that. Someone in Switzerland told me that. Correct. A man or
James Stacy a woman. So out outside of uh outside of Rolex, w we we talked about the the arc of Tutor. What do you think we might see from Tutor? Obviously last year um from a show standpoint, the big one was the BB Pro and then later in the season it was the Pelagos thirty nine. Do you guys have any anything you would love to see, anything you think is like a hole in the lineup or even just what you think they might actually what they would you think they might actually launch
Ben Clymer ? I think that they're probably gonna do something that's not super exciting in the sense that I think we're gonna get chronometer grade um Black Bay 3641 stuff. You know, there're still using the Etabase movements there. I'm not one I I I really making the splashy predictions is tough because they never come true. So I think something like that, which is a mechanical upgrade, seems like it's on the horizon. Yeah, makes sense. So that would be something like a manufacture movement that's smaller. Exactly. Interesting.
James Stacy Yeah, I I don't know. I mean, I think you always
Ben Clymer have to consider that Rolex and Tutor are literally the same company. Like the the the product committee is making the decision on both brands at the same time and i just i'm curious if presuming and again this is total total presumption presuming that rolex has a big year maybe tutor has a soft has a lighter year, you know, so that they can put the shine on the big boy and then next year the little brother comes up and does some crazy stuff. But that that would be that would be my assumption, but I I I don't know
James Stacy at all. Yeah, my my feeling is very similar in that tutors had a lot of shine the last couple years and especially last year in in total of the twelve months. And and I the other thing that in keeping in in step with your idea with your assertion that Rolex and Tutor are the same company, I think that if we got a Pelagos 39, we're gonna see a Pelagos in the other direction. So we have the core Pelagos, but now we've got uh the ultra deep and we've got the the deep sea challenge and we've got a t the a bathascaf tech. I think that there is a market for an even wilder like apex predator dive watch from Tudor. Yeah. That would be less about its wearability, which is what the 39's great for, and more about the Pelagos is still the Pelagos. Yeah. I I think uh now that
Ben Clymer you say that I I could see that. And I think like you know to to be clear, like the the the brands that have each other within their eye like within their you know kind of like scope so to speak would be for for Rolex and Tutor, it's Omega, obviously. And I think the idea of like surrounding Omega, so to speak, from a technical perspective, I think would be would be uh interesting for Rolex. I could say that. And likewise, I mean Omega has has hit back uh resoundingly strong, strongly over the last few years as well from a technical perspective. So I I I could see now that you mentioned that, James, I I agree with that
James Stacy . Well, and and think about the technical chops that we leave on the table. They developed with Comics a brand new machine to be able to test the deep sea challenge. So let's say they wanted to put a Pelgos not quite as deep, but somewhere close, somewhere in advance of hypothetically beyond thirty nine hundred meters of a standard deep sea that requires the machine that they made last year. There's some technical attributes that would lead them to create a watch that could be the new kind of big old flagship for Tudor dive watches that the Pelagos was for the last 10 years. And I think they gave us the 39 and and we might see the like nerd tech diver extension beyond that this year. That that's my only guess. The one we put in the predictions, which is a mic more of a wish was again that 39mm take on the heritage chrono.
Ben Clymer I also, you know, to to Ben's point and yours, that that it might be a sort of a a less of a splashy release for Tudor also goes to the fact that they have turned themselves into a 365 day a year release brand. And I th feel like we've seen it now like last year, I don't know how many releases there were, but it was like every three or four months there was a new
James Stacy tutor. Um yep. And I mean the P thirty nine and the year before it the Pelagos both came out in the fall on their own schedule. Well a lot of brands have become like that, right?
Ben Clymer Uh but I guess the question is, is that because Watches and Wonders wasn't happening? Or was it because like they just want to share, they want their own moment in the in the sun? I think it's probably a little bit of both. AP for sure, like AP wants to have their own moment and they just and frankly they deserve their own moment. Um, but I I I'd be curious to see if if like that now that Watch the Wonders presumably is back in full force, like will they hold stuff for later in the year? I know some brands certainly are. But at the same time also, like you get one chance to show, like we should say also, like the primary to be clear, the primary function of watches and owners is to show retailers these products. And the retailer would say, Hey, Rolex Tutor, I want a million of these and a hundred of those and none of these, you know. So I just think, you know, if you have the chance of having all your retailers under one roof for a week, they're going to show as much as possible. But there have been experiences or moments where like the retailers get to see something and like press does not. It's not officially out yet, but people get to see it. Oh, for sure. But who knows? It's anybody's guess, sincerely. Yeah, and I I wonder too, because Omega has shifted away from last year they did Omega days and this year they're not. And my understanding from that perspective is they're going to be releasing different products on their own at different moments in the year. And I wonder if Tudor and Omega are operating they're operating at similar price points in a lot of areas if if there's almost a direct a direct competition there.
James Stacy Um that they don't want to miss each other as the year goes on too. I think that whatever one major player does, it reflects over the next couple of years in terms of what others do. Obviously if you remember when the submariner went to the forty one millimeter, uh that was a September release for that year. Uh, because there wasn't a trade show and nobody else there wasn't a tutor that September unless I'm forgetting something crazy. Um, but I think they kind of operated on their own, you know, with embargoes, the whole thing, kind of a different move than than Rolex commonly does, and that was for a major watch. Like the watch, right? The Summariners the
Ben Clymer Watch. Yeah. That was the colorful OP OP year, wasn't it James? It was the same release as the colorful OPs because I remember Rolex had stated after COVID, uh after the pandemic and the whole shutdown that they weren't gonna have any releases that year and then suddenly in the fall it was no no we are and then there was a whole string. It was it was some new Sky Dwellers, some
James Stacy some Samariner, and then the uh the OP stuff. Well let we've got a few minutes left. Let's close on uh Patak. I don't think I would have predicted what came out last year, certainly, even if I had sat and and and kind of thought about the idea of essentially like Patek's take on a field watch. Those watches have really grown on me in the last year. You know, I I just think they're like wildly cool things. Did did you see the one at our meetup a few weeks ago? No. It was in the photo report. Which which was it the in
Ben Clymer the in the annual or the three hand? Three hander. Real that was actually I think the first or second. I guess the second time I've seen it in the metal, like kind of weirdly compelling. Like, weirdly, like, oh, okay, like, all right, I get this, you know. And like, do I want it? I don't even know. But you know, much more so than I thought that I would. Yeah, Pitech. Like, I think like we we have a fifty eight eleven, which almost nobody talks about because there's basically like zero in the market, and it's white gold, you know. Is there gonna be a fifty eight eleven steal? I mean, might make sense, you know. Uh but who knows? I mean I my guess is they're gonna do a bunch of like you know, moderately complicated watches like annual chronographs and chronos, etc. Um, with uh some new dials, etc. Uh, but I I don't have any major prediction because again, like I'm just the the market has changed so much, and all this stuff is gonna trade at retail so fast that it's like they almost don't even want to communicate about it for protect in particular, because like there you just means you're gonna be pissing people off more. Um so you know like the the annual calendar chronograph in steel with the salmon dial like that was in stores basically the day that it was communicated and they were all already sold. Um so it's like I just I don't know that like the the sequencing of communication, marketing effectively retail and then sales um exists anymore. So it's it's it's hard to say. Yeah, are they spoken for at retail to buyers that they just know will buy any new like they're on the the top of the list for anything that seems desirable because there's no way that someone could communicate to the retailer that they know it's coming. I'm just curious for from you. I mean it historically how it works from with myself and and other people that are far bigger buyers than I is like you get a text message of like from a link to Houdinky or a link to paddock.com saying, hey, want it? Yeah. And the answer is always yes. And then like sometimes it's not yes, and that's okay too. And it's not like, you know, it's not like everything goes to the same three guys or gals or whatever. Like they they do spread it around. But Patek dealers are masters at like placing the watches with the people that will excite them in in the right way so that they come back to buy something else. And if you've got aquanauts and autolises, you don't need help selling those at all, but there's a very real possibility that in six months, a year, whatever, you know, who who knows that anything but those watches will not be easy sales. And I think I I've heard anecdotally from paddock, author of his dealers, AP dealers, that the market has changed a lot over the past six months, where like any royal oak historically was like an insta-buy. Like you just buy it, doesn't matter what it is. Like, don't even ask questions. Now I've heard of people passing on steel perpetual calendars, you know, which like six months ago was unheard of. And the retail price of that has gone up. The market price has come down. All of a sudden that delta isn't so crazy. Because before you were buying buying it because like holy shit, I can make a hundred percent profit if I sell this thing, which you can't, of course, if you want it to remain in their good graces. But that delta has changed markedly over the past few months. So I I think things are good like retail sales. I actually ran into a uh a an AP retailer last night. And he said things have changed a lot. Uh and you know, to be clear, things are still moving very fast. But I I think the the world of like instabuy for for any Patek or any uh AP
James Stacy is is is short lived, I think. Well look, Ben, uh the last time that we sat down and did one of these recordings together was actually in my hotel room in LA back in end of October, early November during the Omega event. Yeah, I got a lot of DMs being like, What's it like to be in James' hotel room? Just tidy, I hope It was also a hotel room larger than some condos I've owned, so I had a lot of I had a lot of space to cordon my uh my my you know messy laundry somewhere else. But uh we did sat uh we did sit and and chat about some of the pet tech releases at the time, including the 5935A, which is their steel salmon dial um world timer, and and I saw that on your Instagram recently. Did you get a chance to see that
Ben Clymer one in person? Yeah, I've I've got two or three friends that that have it. Um and I was down in Austin, Texas over the weekend at South by Southwest and a friend down there has it. And he's he's a very active buyer and his authorized dealer gave him the first one. And it I have to say, pretty cool. Like it is a really, really cool thing that you know, the the the kind of hatchwork dial, I wasn't super sold on until I saw it. It's really very, very cool. And I I see the appeal and that's a watch that that I could see myself wearing definitely. You know, they they've really adopted Patek has done a really good job adopting a lot of the stuff that was really popular in like the vintage Patek and vintage watch world. Frankly a lot of their straps look like Hodicki straps that we were designing, you know, 10, 15 years ago. Not at all taking credit to be clear. But like those kind of suede newbucky, you know, uh like light tan, almost camelie straps, like those were prevalent in the vintage Patek and Rolex world for for many, many years. And now we're seeing it on on production watches. I actually have the day that I got my 5270, I actually asked Patek for a military style strap from off the pilot's watch to put it on on that watch. And like now we're seeing those straps come production on some of these things. It's a really cool watch. And I, you know, that would be one that would be compelling to me in in the modern catalog. That's outside the the Nautilus Aquana stuff. And I still think like again, I I love Nautiluses, I love Aquanautos. You know, I've had them. Um but Patek to me is still like it's a dress watch company. And it's like that's like, yeah, like when you're when you're crushing it and like, you know, you you're a a banker or something like that, like you wear a 5970, you drive a 9-11 turbo or whatever, like that is a vibe, you know? And of course, like that has changed markedly now where it's like you're just like a Silicon Valley dude or an entrepreneur and like you're wearing shirts and a t-shirt and you still wear a 5970 or 5270. But I think you know, protect does so much more than the Aqua Not and Nautilus. It really, I've said this a thousand times. We'll say it one more time. It's a shame that people are so focused on just the sports watches when there's just so much else out there. Historically, even like a 5905 or fifty two oh five, like annual calendars, fifty one seventies, fifty two seventies, uh fifty one seventy two is a great watch. Uh the per the perpetuals are great. There's just so much there. And it's all done to such a high level uh that it's just again a bummer from like my perspective as a watchner to to see people care only about
James Stacy the sports watch. That's fair. I got really pumped for that fifty ninth. I can't wait. Some time maybe they'll have one. I'm sure they'll have one in the in the vitrines at Basel. Maybe I can convince them to bring one out during our meeting. Yeah, and if if not, like you will run into somebody
Ben Clymer you know that is wearing it. Like there's just no question, you know. It might be Danny Milton. He's got he's got that watches of the wild money now. Those
James Stacy watches in the wild residuals keep coming in. That's right. That's right. All right, guys. I think we should leave the rest of uh whatever might be on our mind for episodes that we'll record in various stages of uh caffeination and and lack of caffeination in Geneva in in uh what? Ten, twelve days from now. It's gonna be great. Yeah. Soon, man. So soon. And if you're listening and enjoyed the show, please share it with a friend. Please know that we're gonna have a daily, call it thirty minute to sixty minute episode. So if you want in on the chit chat uh from the show, that'll be the best way to do it. And be sure to subscribe so that it just shows up in your feed. But as always, thank you so much for listening and we'll chat to you in a little more than a week's time and then a whole bunch back to back. Thanks, James. See you guys.