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Considering Customization and Watch Mods

Published on Sun, 2 Oct 2022 12:00:00 +0000

Is the industry headed towards a wider acceptance of watch modification? And if so, is that a good thing? Nick and Cooper Zelnick of Cloister Watch Co join James to chat about the world of watch personalization.

Synopsis

In this episode of Hodinkee Radio, host James Stacy explores the world of watch customization and modification with guests Nick Marino, Hodinkee's EVP of Content, and Cooper Zelnick, founder of Cloyster Watch Co. The conversation was inspired by Nick's recent article questioning why watch modding is so uncommon in the industry compared to other luxury goods sectors like fashion and automobiles.

Nick shares his background at Levi's, where customization was not just accepted but encouraged, contrasting sharply with the watch world's traditional reverence for originality. Cooper discusses his journey from vintage watch collector to someone who reimagines vintage timepieces, creating personalized versions that their owners actually want to wear rather than keep in a safe. He explains that Cloyster's philosophy is to ask "what if" questions about historical watches—imagining what might have been created for a brand's best clients in a given era.

The discussion explores several key themes: the tension between watches as financial assets versus personal items meant to be enjoyed; the difference between manufacturer-offered customization (like Porsche Design's configurator or Bamford's services) versus aftermarket modifications; and why the watch industry has been slower to embrace personalization compared to cars, clothing, and other luxury goods. The guests acknowledge that customization typically reduces resale value but argue that for collectors who plan to keep and wear their watches, personalization can create deeper emotional connections to their timepieces. They close by sharing specific modifications they'd love to see, including a Royal Oak on leather strap, refinements to the Patek Philippe Aquanaut 5065, and Omega Seamaster with sword hands instead of skeleton hands.

Transcript

Speaker
James Stacy This episode of Hodinki Radio is proudly brought to you by Hodinki Insurance. It's the fastest, easiest way to insure the watches you love. Get your quote now at Hodinki.comslash insurance. Hey, it's me, James Stacy, and this episode of Hodinky Radio was inspired by a story that Nick, our EVP of content, recently wrote about why modding watches is so uncommon within the greater scope of the watch industry. Wanting to dig deeper into this interesting topic, I invited Nick and recent talking watches guest Cooper Zelnick on the show to chat about it. Cooper's the founder of Cloyster Watchco, a brand that modifies vintage watches in a manner that reimagines designs that might have been. We chat about the world of watch mods, OEM customization, the value of customization in luxury goods, and even a few wishlist modifications that we'd love to see become a reality on some of our favorite watches. Who knows, maybe we'll change or modify your mind on the topic. Let's find out. All right, Nick Cooper, thank you so much for being on the show. I I'm really looking forward to this.
Cooper Zelnick Hey, James, great to be here with you. Thanks for having me.
James Stacy Uh Nick, I think we need to start with a little bit of background, just in case somebody hasn't read um your your post about watch customization or or hasn't, for whatever reason, seen Cooper's lovely uh talking watches that you guys both did. Uh why don't you give people a little bit of background on what brought us to this kind of controversial but l largely kind of accepted concept of like why isn't there more customizing happening in the watch world? Yeah, I've been pleasant
Nick Marino ly surprised at how accepted it has been. Um long story short, I I came to Hodenkey about two years ago from Levi's. And uh at Levi's customization is not just accepted but encouraged. We had this this phrase um that your jeans were a blank canvas for a person
James Stacy So the whole idea was, you know
Nick Marino , rip them, cuff them, splatter them with paint, you know, do whatever you can to make them your own. So when I when I arrived here at Hoodinky, um I was really startled to see that that is not how things work in the watch world. And I I kind of wondered why, and I wondered if I was the only one who thought that that was sort of strange and um maybe even a little provincial. And I found this website for Cloyster Watch Company. And it turned out that there was this guy in New York who I'd never met or heard of who was sort of quietly making these beautiful um reinterpretations of vintage pieces
James Stacy ? Um, and and I gotta
Nick Marino tell you, a lot of times I thought that they were improvements upon the originals. And so I just reached out to to to the guy who it turns out is Cooper Zelnick, who is uh our guest today, and introduced myself and began a relationship over over two years ago and and and finally now we've um we've gotten in the room together and filmed this episode of Talking Watches
James Stacy . Yeah, I really enjoyed the episode and and it kind of, you know, r shone a light upon something in the watch road that I wasn't aware of, this idea of kind of reimagining vintage watches and especially vintage watches that aren't in say the top ten percent of what everyone knows. Uh Cooper, I'd I'd I'd love a little bit of an explanation, you know, the elevator pitch on how you went from loving watches to actually kind of reimagining them in some sense
Nick Marino . Sure. So so first
Cooper Zelnick , thanks for having me. Um you know for me this started with just the love of vintage watches. So I was a collector, I started collecting when I was young. I became sort of not quite a vintage dealer, but someone who helped people find and buy and learn about and restore watches. And you know, that was sort of a long story, but I ended up owning a Rolex 1601 date just that I hadn't intended to own. And I actually asked this question for myself, which was, you know, if I could, if I could turn this watch into something that was uniquely mine, something that I would want to wear every day, what would it look like and what would it be? And so the the first Cloyster vintage watch was built, you know, by me for me. And you know, pretty soon after, people started approaching me, people were excited about it. And we ended up embarking on this journey to create that same thing for other
James Stacy That's fascinating. So fifteen years, uh how many watches over that time, if if if it's something that you share with people, how many watches have you sort of uh customized
Cooper Zelnick ? Very Very few, relatively speaking. I I would say today we're on a a clip of you know, call it twenty five to fifty a year. The first few years was probably less than ten a year. So gosh, you know, uh a few hundred maybe. And they are all different.
James Stacy And do you have a specific brands you prefer to work with or it could be whatever a client is interested in
Nick Marino ? I, you know we, don't have any
Cooper Zelnick specific criteria in terms of brands. I like working with the brands that inspired me to fall in love with watches to begin with, right? So Rolex, PatTech, Vashron, probably a little less so on Odemar, uh, Jaeger in a big way. And then we've done some work with Brightlings and others, but I'm I I'll admit I'm a little bit of a brand snub.
James Stacy Well that's an it's it's an interesting thing to come at it from a from an admitted brand snob territory, which those those brands certainly work for that. Um but but to have the idea that you might want to change it. You know, we know the state of of sort of watch customization, or at least I think most people have an idea of what's out there today. What was it like uh, you know, fifteen years ago when you started saying like, well, I I could change that on the dial or I could do this with the hands or something like that
Cooper Zelnick . I'm tempted to say, and I think the answer you're looking for is it was much more taboo, right? Because there there has been uh more acceptance of this in the last few years. But I think it's also true that 15 years ago that the mania around the watch collecting, specifically v,intage watch collecting, was much less intense
James Stacy . Yeah. And you know,
Cooper Zelnick the idea of well, you want a vintage Rolex, you're gonna buy it on eBay, maybe the dial's already refinished, maybe it isn't, maybe you don't know. I think that actually like at least from my perspective, and I'm trying to you know, there was a degree to which I was inexperienced and naive and a degree to which the the the sort of phenomenon around vintage collecting has really changed in the last decade and a half
James Stacy . But I think
Cooper Zelnick that I was probably doing something different and the world was different in a way that it was uh fairly non-controversial then. But you know, we weren't we weren't buying, you know, rare Pateks and changing them back then.
James Stacy With that background, Nick, I'm curious if you could bring us up to speed on kind of what you learned when you wrote this story, which kind of confronted your experience in wanting to mod stuff and and although we don't have the video on for this recording, I'm wearing a modded Levi shirt. It was modded by my bonfire at the cottage. Uh burned because there's a nice hole in it, which I rather like now. It makes me think think of the cottage, but I I wore it in honor of this. What was your I I think we understand the thesis, but what did you kind of discover as you went? 'Cause there there are options out there. It just isn't it's not like it is in other things, like say cars or or homes or or clothing, right
Nick Marino ? I learned a couple things. The
James Stacy first is the the ex
Nick Marino tent to which customization is just the norm not only in fashion, like forget about Levi's for a minute. You can customize your Tesla. Um, you can customize your golf clubs from Taylor made
James Stacy . Um, you can customize just
Nick Marino about everything. And watches seem to be this kind of funky outlier, you know, really clinging to the past, which watchers often do. And yet there seems to be not only with Cooper, but also with the work that Bamford is doing, um, a movement toward greater acceptance. So Bamford, you know, started out modifying Rolex's um now is doing uh they have sort of a watch customiz
James Stacy er online um that
Nick Marino 's a little more official than the the Rolex stuff, where if you want a Zenith or um Taghoyer then, you want to change the stitching on the strap, you can, or the color of the hands, you can. And it's it's it's it's the first sort of large-scale, almost industrialized customization tool that I've seen used by the the major watch brands. And I think it's it's it's going to be the standard eventually. It it may not be anytime soon. I could be out of the industry by the time that happens. But um it will eventually happen, I'm sure of it
James Stacy . Yeah, I I don't disagree on that front. I I would say that the what strikes me is there's it's worth making some sort of a delineation between uh customization at at say pre purchase or at the time of purchase, like by the brand, and then something afterwards in the market, because I think those are going to be seen as two different things in a lot of different scope. You know, if if you buy, if you buy a car and modify it after, it may be worth more to you emotionally, but it might actually be worth less on its wheels. And I think that can sometimes be the same thing for watches. And the the options, like you said, with Bamford are pretty good these days as far as being able to customize. Some brands, like Omega, have so many options that almost feels like you're customizing them. You can pick between different dials and obviously uh lots of different iterations. And then you have a Bamford, I I just got back from a a week in uh Austria in Switzerland with Porsche design, and they showed us the manufactory where they do their uh custom made timepiece, which is a chronograph that literally uses of a tool that looks and feels the same as what you would use to customize your Porsche. So you can get the same paint uh color on a ring on the watch. You can get the same leather, the exact same leather used on the strap. You can change the stitching color just like you can on the seats in the car. You can get a rotor, a winding mass that looks and is finished the same way as the wheels and and they had to build this technology and it's something like six million combinations because you know if the the little cap for the wheel that covers the the lug nuts is is the same. You can get all sorts of different versions for the what would cover you know the center of the winding mass. So I th the options out there are kind of interesting. Um, but it's it's interesting but to to and see the difference between say manufacture customization and aftermarket modification? Because Cooper, do you feel like those are still two pretty different worlds
Cooper Zelnick ? Well, I think they are, and I I think it's it it's worth maybe defining the terms here a little bit, right?
James Stacy Sure. But when I think about you know
Cooper Zelnick customizing we'll we'll stick with the analogy about cars, right? There is the Porsche configurator, which allows you to select from you know a a meaningful number of preset options, but preset options, then you have kind of the upper echelon, right? The true Porsche individual, whatever they call it. And that, you know, is done by the factory and whether it's a PTS, paint a sample, or whether it's something else, you're you're now in this more rarefied world, but still a world created for you by Porsche. And there's incremental value there, um, at least as the market would would would describe value. But then let's say, for example, that I bought a you know Porsche 911 turbo and I didn't like the flat six in it, I wanted a V10. Now we're talking about a very different world. And when I think about custom watches, I tend to think about going above and beyond the manufacturer's intent rather than, you know, rather than availing oneself of all of the the options that the manufacturer you know may may give a customer. And I think like there are these moments, if you think about some of the the work that Patek has done for like their most valued clients, right? Like some of the Michael Ovitz Pateks are really an interesting example. And then on the other other side there, you know, if you imagine you were a French diver who had a a Rolex mariner and you sent it back to the factory for a service and it came back with a new dial and new hands, that's also a form of customization, although one that you wouldn't have had control over and may not have wanted
James Stacy . So there are a lot of worlds con
Cooper Zelnick verging here in a way that that I think is really interesting.
James Stacy Yeah, that that's a fascinating point to me to
Nick Marino o, is that you know, watches have a lot of tradition and much of that tradition is um still valuable and some some of it in my view, you know, is is beginning to to seem obsolete. And the the notion of having a piece unique made is for a lot of collectors the absolute
Cooper Zelnick , right? It's the holy grail. What it
James Stacy was a piece unique if not a cust
Nick Marino om watch. Right. So you know the the
James Stacy it ends up the snake ends up eating its o
Nick Marino wn tail a little bit um when you get to the ultra, ultra, ultra high end
James Stacy . Well, I mean, even look at OnlyWatch, right? Only W
Nick Marino atch is another great example. And then th another point that I make in in the article that I wrote is that Seiko's, which are cheap and cheerful, no one cares if you modify those either, because you know it's only a few hundred bucks, they make a million of them So we've got the ultra high end Only Watch Peace Uniques, whatever, and we've got the low end. So everything's covered on those. So we're only really talking about the fat part of the bell curve where this is even an issue anymore. Um and I just think eventually that will start to erode.
James Stacy And do you think do you think it'll be an erosion of of the general enthusiast mind share being dedicated to originality over all else? Or will it be that everything else will be so commonplace? Like let's talk about brands that make a million watches a year, that they'll be we'll all have experienced or or maybe not um in person but digitally have experienced all of these to the extent where we'll need a stronger hit
Nick Marino . I think so I think
Cooper Zelnick the world ends up opening up and splitting a little bit. Right. So I I tend to spend my time thinking more about vintage than about modern. And I think there are categories within vintage. I think there will be universes of collectors and enthusiasts where there remains an appropriate focus on originality. Right. Um, and I I sort of think that like the Patek 1518, which is a bit of a grail watch for me, there are They're really special. I can't imagine anyone saying, and and I'm pretty far out on this spectrum, I would never say, oh, you know, you want that, but you want it to have a oxblood dial. Let's do it. Like I I can't imagine that
James Stacy . But if you go into sort of if you again
Cooper Zelnick go back into the car world and I'm a BMW guy, you know, there are BMW enthusiasts who have like totally, totally mint 2002s or even 507s, right? And then you have the modern community. And and within the modern community, there's this real joy around what you can do to these cars. And I would observe that the two groups have respect and reverence for one another. And I think that emerges, right? I think that we get to a place of if you see a beautifully customized watch, even if you are a purist, which I am, you can sort of uh really appreciate the artistry of that and and really appreciate the uniqueness of that without asking the question of, oh that's a special dial, was that put on by Pat Tech or was that put on by someone else? Right.
James Stacy Right. And if I add in one more wrinkle, I'd say if we take that perspective, which I don't disagree with, especially when it comes to something like BMW, which is a great option, that's another one of these companies, manufacturers that there's a whole cottage industry, very successful cottage industry of people who are ready to uh modify that vehicle when you're ready, whether it's and
Cooper Zelnick they and they get subsumed, right? Like if you think about AMG and Mercedes, if you think about Alpina and BMW, they actually ultimately get subsumed, which is sort of fascinating in and of itself.
James Stacy Yeah. No, I agree. That's a that's a good uh a good uh comparison. But on the new side, I wonder how much modification or customization is being held back by this general vibe of of maintaining uh like pres preserving the value of this thing of this asset rather than it just being a watch that you wear and enjoy. I do I do wonder if it's something that would be hard for the current enthusiast community, the really the the core that that you know is is watching what a watch is worth or or trying to buy at the right time. That sort of and then the idea of changing it almost seems uh antithetical to the to the mode. It's not really how I interface with watches, but I I definitely saw it come up in the comments.
Nick Marino Yeah, I think Cooper and I both agree on this that if if you're gonna resell your watch, you should not customize it. I mean that that'
Cooper Zelnick s for sure. Like that that
Nick Marino that's um that's a terrible idea. Uh and and also, you know, some of the comments were sort of like, well, you can't trust like Jimmy down the block to have good taste. And it's like, well, that's Jimmy's problem. You know, like Jimmy should still be able to exercise poor taste. People exercise poor taste in all kinds of ways. You know, you can't legislate taste. Um, but the resale market is I I think definitely what's holding this back because these things are expensive to begin with. They can grow in value. And one way to guarantee that your watch will lose value, unless you are Carl Lagerfeld or someone for whom provenance is important, is it start messing with it
James Stacy . Right. That's right. I'm not the
Nick Marino I'm not the kind of collector who's anticipating some mass
James Stacy ive estate sale. So who cares? I wear them for
Nick Marino me and that's it. Yeah. And and it
Cooper Zelnick it is funny, right? Like, because on the new stuff, the place that I go is if the the the brands also have a a strong vested interest in not allowing this, right? If you think about the buzz that Pat Tech was able to generate this year with that new collection of salmon dial watches. Like those could you could have made some pretty interesting salmon dial watches last year, right? Or if you think about like the the Patek uh 5168, that sort of khaki green aqu
James Stacy anut. Fascinating watch, to
Cooper Zelnick o big for my wrist, right? Like that, you know, a 50-65 with that dial would have been amazing, right? But like the brands want to control releases. And while there is real meaningful technical um advancement occurring, there's also a lot of like aesthetic control and a lot of novelty related to aesthetic, right? If 2022 also is a year of the green dial, right? Like that that there's a lot of that going on um in a way that's important. But but I agree too. I you know I think like I I have watches that if I were designing them, I would design them differently. And even though I am a customizer, I would not customize. I have stuff that's beautiful in its imperfection. And I yeah, you know, I really, really try to see both sides of that
James Stacy . Right. And then where do you think the brands really come into this? Because obviously it's disruptive if someone can get what they want from somebody else, even if it's based on, say, the original product. And then there's also this concept, and you do see this in the car game, this concept of brands wanting to protect their position in the market, their sort of their vibe, their ethos, if you will. Like, you know, I've I've talked to Nick in the past about dead mouse's Ferrari, which is you know the highly customized Ferrari that he he had made. And of course, like Ferrari notoriously loves a uh cease and desist. Uh and and does so for uh I think a number of reasons. Obviously, if it's an IP thing, you have to protect your IP or you can lose it. But they didn't they didn't like a number of things about this car, and and of course the car after it kind of showed up and and made a bit of a splash went away. Whereas uh other whereas other other brands seem to be more open to the idea that somebody would, you know, put a lot of personality in into the vehicle, especially if that personality kind of matches with a certain level of car culture. And I just wonder if the if the watch thing, especially the deep enthusiasm for watches in an online sense and a shareable online sense just isn't mature enough yet to to kind of accept a yet another layer of of this enthusiasm
Nick Marino . Yeah, it it's hard.
Cooper Zelnick And you know, I I think the brands are gonna be very hesitant to embrace this sort of thing. If you think about the aftermarket sales that are going on, especially with the hype watches, right? The Aquanaut, the Nautilus, the Royal Oak, and some of the sport Rolex stuff. The the brands could do any number of things differently, which they're not doing because they're focused on preserving a certain relationship with customers, a certain brand ethos, a certain feel. So I I think the brands are going to be very, very slow to accept any level of customization. As a person who has been on Instagram, I would observe that like there's a lot of interest in customization. There's a lot of interest in in the art of the possible, and I'm really excited about that. Um, and you know, like to I fear we're making this a car podcast rather than a watch podcast, but ye
James Stacy ah, the counter example to the P
Cooper Zelnick erari is the Singer Porsche, right? Where like Singer has gone back in time. They have a better idea about what to do with a 964 than Porsche arguably did, definitely does. And they've built something spectacular. I think that's only helped Porsche's brand. I think that's like not unrelated to the release of the Sport Classic and the new Speedster and all of these like throwback analog Porsches that are being made. And I think it's good for everyone. So like I would argue that that you know the this ethos of like really enthusiast collector customer driven design can totally coexist with like the stewardship of these brands and the totally reasonable desire to push these push these ideas and brands into the future. And I'd love to see those things coexist.
Nick Marino To take it to a place that's different from cars
James Stacy , but I think equally relevant. I think about
Nick Marino music and I think about the um re
James Stacy mixes and covers. Exactly. I think
Nick Marino about remix culture, mashup culture. I mean, pretty much all of hip-hop. I also think about technology like Photoshop
James Stacy . Sure. Um I think I think about
Nick Marino widely of widely available software that allows people to manipulate sound files and image files and and people who have grown up knowing nothing el
James Stacy Okay, it's time for our ad break. And anyone who has ever bought themselves a nice watch and then tried to add it to an insurance policy will know just how big a hassle it can be to get your watch insured. You need receipts, an appraisal, a pile of photos, and lots of patience just to get your watch properly protected. Frankly, it sucks, so we decided to make something better. Hodinky Insurance is the fastest, easiest way to insure the watches you love. Get your quote now at hodinky.com slash insurance. You know, I don't I don't want too much time or I don't want to spend the entire show talking about you know the idea of modifying a Rolex and what your options are. Uh it came up in the comments that you can even uh it's up to Rolex, but there's options uh from the service center to actually change things about the watch. Um uh once they're a certain age and uh and and whatever would might be available in terms of parts that fit, you there are opportunities there. So it it's funny that they don't make it m more popular or or something, you know, more direct. And of course I do wonder how much of this is because they're not selling watches direct to people all the time or most of the time. You know, they have to work through an AD. Um, so that there there is always this layer between the customer and the final brand. And I think that happens both on say Seiko side and all the way up to Rolex or above. And that that kind of means that yeah, I on one end you might be modding a Seiko because it you just wanted a slightly different handset or you wanted something wild that doesn't even say Seiko on the dial anymore. But on the other side at the top end, do you think this pushes people into the indie space where they might get to speak with the person who's creating the watch, get to change a detail or two, make a choice about dial color, that kind of stuff?
Cooper Zelnick I mean I, really hope so, right? Like the the thing that I've tried to do and that I think is the best of customization is this democratization of it, right? This idea that you can you don't have to be the world's best customer of Patek to get a piece unique. Um and I think like the small brands and the independents probably afford that opportunity much more easily than some of the larger houses do. Um so so I really hope so. And uh I don't know, I I I think that there's something happening here, there's a broader historical context, right? Where people are tiring of mass luxury. And you know, I I'm I get made fun of by my friends unsurprisingly because I am obsessed with custom in every aspect of my life. Like I make I'm I have custom clothes made, I like having custom furniture made. I'm I am way out on the edge. And I I I think it's wonderful. I think that like this individual expression is really great. And in a world where, you know, uh in 1965, I think wearing a Rolex Day Day was a status symbol, right? There was a reason that Marilyn Monroe gave that watch to to JFK. That would have been slightly before 65, obviously. But today that isn't the case anymore. And and I I I think that there's this question of taste and a question of status and they shouldn't be merged. But like the idea that you can really, really express yourself through a thing is wonderful. And yes, for sure, I think people are realizing that if you want to do that, you have to move away from some of the most established tastemakers of of the last generation
Nick Marino . And when that happens, that's when I think the big brands will get on board. You know, at the at
Cooper Zelnick the moment. At the moment
Nick Marino , there's absolutely no incentive for them to. My dream is to be able to walk into let's just say a uh Rolex AD I have a day date um eighteen oh three which I cherish I'm wearing it right now and and
Cooper Zelnick uh those are the best I would never want
Nick Marino to um compromise uh the the aesthetic of the case or the dial, it's perfect. But if I wanted the date wheel to be in Spanish, I'd love to be able to stroll into an A D and say, Hey, can you pop this date wheel out and put a Spanish one in and just walk right back out? Like that would be amazing. But why would they do that? And not
Cooper Zelnick feel dirty, right? Yeah. And not feel gross
Nick Marino . But that, you know, at the moment, there's no incentive for them to do it. When the sea change that Cooper's talking about ultimately happens, and it will, that's when the rest of this comes along too
James Stacy . The thing that strikes me is I figure a lot of brands will have will eventually lean on this or at least some level of personalization because it makes the product so much more sticky. Like Cooper, do you find a lot of your watches get sold uh sh you know, shortly after you modify them
Cooper Zelnick ? Never. We've we've never had anything get sold. And I'll give you a great example because it it what you're saying reminds me of it. So someone emailed me today and said, Hey, when my dad died, I inherited his two-tone 1601. I loved my dad, the watch is meaningful, the watch is ugly, and I don't wear it. I've tried everything, right? Like I've switched the bracelet. I've like tried any number of straps, but I just don't wear the watch and I want to. Right. So yes, for sure, like you you'd assume the brands would want people to keep these and pass them down. I'm thinking of like the old Patek advertisement on this topic
James Stacy . But but also like
Cooper Zelnick I think that's what people want, right? And yes, there's temptation, right? If you're lucky enough to get uh one of a couple watches and we all know what they are at retail, there's a temptation to flip them. Um but but I think people want to own these things and develop a relationship with them and and I I definitely see customization as a way to deepen that relationship or in certain cases to create that relationship for the first time with an old thing, which is which is really powerful.
Nick Marino W one of the things Cooper said in our talk
Nick Marino ing watches that um I really liked was that his whole goal is just to get watches out of the safe and onto the wrist. And if customizing that piece is gonna help that guy start wearing his dad's Rolex, then then great. Like do it immediately. Um
Cooper Zelnick Yeah. You know, the the the the sa
Nick Marino to me, watches and safes are just kind of sad. I I totally get that they're an alternative asset class and all of that. But man, there's just no romance in that at all. Um and as we've said before, if if that is why you're in the game. Like that should be allowed to.. Fine. Great Of course.
Cooper Zelnick Of course. Put put them in the safe
Nick Marino . Make your money. But for those of us who presume that the reason we're in the game is to wear them, if there's a reason you're not wearing it that can be adjusted, like go ahead and adjust it.
James Stacy But but it's it's funny because these days e most brands don't even leave space for an engrav
Cooper Zelnick ing. Right. Right? And and I
James Stacy feel like that was kind of a a known thing for a long time. You'd have a some space on the case back, you could have it engraved, and I think that immediately makes a watch a lot harder to see as you know cash in a different form.
Cooper Zelnick Right. Yeah, it it does. And I think that um paradoxically, right, as the brands have become much more focused on not allowing their customers to flip these watches. There's also been this trend where the watches are much more flippable and where flipping is is uh more lucrative than it ever has been before. So there's this weird tension there. And I think some of this stuff goes back to the collect, like the early days of collecting too, frankly.
James Stacy Yeah, it's it's a fascinating point. And it is true that as watches and watch enthusiasm has modernized, they've become much easier to move. There's both substructures within you could which you can sell them, of course, Crown and Caliber being an obvious one that we should mention, the hood and key shop also being an obvious one that we can mention, and within that, it's it's much easier these days to tell if you have a real or a fake watch, paperwork, serial numbers, all that kind of stuff is much more modernized. You have Vashron using the um blockchain uh for some of this stuff. Like uh there's all these moves that make it something that can be moved around, and yet they seem to want it less than ever. And and I do feel like some level of of customization, of personalization, even uh I think that mostly what we're talking about here is pre- or at point of sale versus changing things after. But my experience with changing with modding watches is is on the Seiko side. I'm I'm I have one Rolex, I'm not changing it. I love it the way it is. And largely I bought it because I love that design. But I've had lots of Seiko's that were just a little bit off. I wanted a different hand color. I wanted to change the bezel. And I think that world offers an unbelievable amount of fun with very little risk
Cooper Zelnick . Right. Do you do that work yourself
Nick Marino , James? I haven't done it myself. I
James Stacy I have a friend who's going to teach me, hopefully over the the fall, so uh winter, the you know, more time inside this year. Uh I'd like I'd like to learn uh how to do that. And there's some great guides online uh for that. But in in the past, uh I mean I've done the bezel. That's easy. Um so yes, I've done the bezels. But when it came to hands or suffering had to uh remove the movement from the case I I I let a friend, uh, someone more qualified than myself, handle it. But it it it's fascinating, and I follow a little bit of the Seiko thing where you know, Reddit has an incredible Seiko modding community, and there is a point where I think Seiko's come and talk to people about their Instagram presence and said like, hey, please don't use our name. These aren't our watches anymore. And like it I guess it kind of begs if you want to get into philosophy of the whole like ship a theseus thing, but I think it also proves that it's just way more fun to have more options and to be able to make something like this yours. And and maybe the fun is easier to understand when the watch is $500 or a thousand dollars, right?
Nick Marino Yeah, it's funny. I have a Rocket U
James Stacy h that I bought that I bought on Etsy for
Nick Marino a hundred and ten dollars. And it's technically a Franken watch because it has a different handset. But you know at at the hundred and ten dollar price point I I think I literally got what I paid for there
James Stacy . You know, and and again it,'s not as though
Nick Marino that's uh any kind of resale asset. So at a certain level, who cares? You know, it's originality only really matters if you're like keeping score at home for your own uh you know pleasure, which some people I guess do, uh, or if you intend to try to unload that watch at some point and need to testify to its original Otherwise, who cares? But it it's you know, it's hard to balance the the you know, keep score or value the type of emotion that's that would lead someone to loving being able to modify their watch versus loving the original, right? We see that in cars, right? Guys that are has to be original paint, has to be, you know, new old stock, has to be this or that. And then on the other side, you you see a ton of people who get it, you know, I I don't think I owned my Jeep for the 10 straight days before I changed something. It was like part of part of what I knew I was getting into
Cooper Zelnick . Right. Well let me offer a thought experiment. So I I think the majority of serious collectors today, if you said I'm gonna give you the opportunity to modify your watch in an aftermarket way, they would recoil. But I think if you said, I'm gonna give you the opportunity to work with your favorite brand and have them design you a piece unique, I think a hundred people out of a hundred would take them up on that. And then if you added the wrinkle and said, you can work with your favorite brand, you can design a piece unique, but you can never resell it, right? Then I think a hundred out of a hundred people would still jump at the opportunity. to do that Right. So there's this question of like there is a question of pure taboo, even beyond a question of value that um that's really interesting here
James Stacy . Then the question, Cooper
Nick Marino , becomes like, well, who are you to modify their stuff? You know, what are what are your bona fides
Nick Marino ? It might be helpful for people listening to this um to sort of understand kind of like why why you think you're qualified to be messing with their veterans, you know
Cooper Zelnick ? Yeah. And I guess my answer is: if you think I am, then I am. And if you think I'm not, then I'm definitely not, right? But like my my view of this is that anyone is qualified to mess with their own Vashron. And when I think about my work, I don't think, hi, I'm Cooper, I can make a better Vashron. I think hi, I'm Cooper, I can help you make a watch list more you, whether that's a Vashron or anything else. And and I really try to take a very light touch and help the people whose watches these are kind of channel their individuality. And to the extent that we're really good at something, it's not you know painting watch dials. It's helping people create things for themselves. That's that's how I would describe our work.
James Stacy Yeah I I I get I definitely get that. And I I watch the the obviously the talking watches and I would say that the the modifications that were on display there were you know fairly low key. Definitely felt like something that could have been uh done in period maybe maybe when you've got something like um a dial signature or initials or something, maybe that was for a great client, uh that sort of thing. It all felt within tone. Do you guys get in do does cloister, when I say you guys, do do you get into things that are a little bit more wild than that? Do you take it further
Cooper Zelnick ? We we have at times, right? We've done metalworking, we've done sapphire casebacks where they didn't exist. We have done in the past a little bit of um you know PVD or or or DLC things like that, although we don't do much of it anymore. But I think quite frankly, like we are not interested as a design studio in everything that can be done. And we're certainly not interested in doing things because they can be done. We try to be low-key. And um, you know, I I I think they're they're again great examples of like the boundaries of watch making being pushed, right? If you think about the Mac and Row lefties of Mariner, right? That's really cool. That's just really cool. So and that's a that's a technical feat, right? Like and and also what what Artisan Studeneve is doing, just you know, exposing these movements, changing parts, like that's technically complex and wonderful. You know, when when I think about our work, we are we are really trying to put ourselves in the mindset of the factory in the period of time when the watch was made. And to ask the question I think you just asked, which is, well, what if the person was the world's best Vashron client? Or what if the person was an amazing Jaeger client and personal friends with the designer? What could you have done then? Right? We want it to be characteristic.
James Stacy Yeah, I think that makes sense. And you know, I I don't I don't want to get to the end of this and say, like, oh, it looks like the lesson learned was the friends we made along the way. Uh but like it it largely comes down to like what what do you love about watches? What gets you excited about watches? If it's if it's preserving their originality and and caring for them like fine very important baseball cards or something like that and and keeping them in in this very specific space and occasionally bringing them out to kind of appreciate them, I think that's good and fine. But I don't think it's any more good or more fine than wanting to change it and and you know, following your emotion through that path.
Nick Marino Yeah, that's perfectly said, James. And and my whole vision of watches,
Nick Marino and even you might say for a hodinky, is a place where all things are possible, you know, and and trying to to unwind a lot of the rules that the watch industry and community have made for themselves, um, that are not preordained you know from on high
James Stacy , and where it's all fine. Like I
Nick Marino I'm not a huge fan of diamond bust downs, but like it's your money.
James Stacy If you want to do that, great. I I I
Nick Marino just don't love the notion of anyone telling anyone else
Nick Marino what they can and can't do with their mone
Nick Marino y or their watches. That's when it starts to bum me out. I mean there there are plenty of wolf watches I would never customize, and plenty of customizations
James Stacy that are ugly. Like customiz
Nick Marino ation is not inherently a great thing
James Stacy . The abil the ability and fre
Nick Marino edom to customize is inherently
Nick Marino a good thing.
Cooper Zelnick I agree. I have a I've a nineteen ninety one E thirty four BMW M five that I have customized in what I think is a tasteful way. So I've done a coil over kit, I've done a spectacular interior, I've chipped it, I've done some tuning. It is an M5, and it's from the period, but it's to my mind better. And I drive it, right? I've I have 120,000 miles on the car. I recently drove it to JFK. And if if you're a New Yorker and you've ever tried to pick someone up at the airport, you have to pretend your car is broken so they don't make you move. So I popped the hood open to pretend it's broken and I see this sticker from 1991 that says, do not put any aftermarket parts on this car. It'll void the warranty. And I just I found myself laughing at this, right? Because the truth is, if I hadn't modified this BMW, I would not be driving it to JFK. Maybe I'd take it out on a Sunday. Maybe I'd use it a little bit. But I have I've tuned and updated and changed the car so that I can use it and love it and enjoy it. So like my opinion on watchmaking is if this gets a watch onto your wrist, if it makes you smile. If it's awesome as you define awesome, it's all good.
James Stacy Yeah, I like it. I I think that's a great example. I I love the idea that by modding the watch not only do you make it more yours, but you also remove some of the baggage that might be attached to it and it just becomes something you get to use however you see fit. And and you definitely see people do that um with cars. And I don't know that I can't imagine many uh many things that would make a an E thirty four M five very tasteless. That's quite a car. You know, I I d to to close out a little challenge, I think is is in order. Uh I would love to hear from you both uh an idea of a watch that you love that you think is only one, maybe two changes away from being something you would immediately go out and grab? Whether that was something you would do yourself or theoretically, let's say you could just go to the website, you know, change this color or this text or whatever, and then order it. Is there anything that's that close where that that one little change could make the difference.
Nick Marino I can think of one and it's total blasphemy,
James Stacy but I I love the idea of a royal oak on a
Nick Marino leather strap. Okay. I realize that the whole point of the royal oak is the integrated bracelet and that for a lot of people, including Ben Clymer, the bracelet is as important as the case, as important as that eight sided bezel. It's it's a lot of the show is in the bracelet. L
James Stacy ike respect for that point of view
Nick Marino . But I'm a strap guy. I
James Stacy l I love the idea of that shape, especially an old one
Nick Marino . If I could get one that's it's a little smaller and wear it as a dress watch on a leather strap rather than as a sport watch on a steel bracelet, like count me in for that. When did
James Stacy they start offering them on leather straps? Not that long like not when they were spending
Cooper Zelnick .
James Stacy I also like can't remember if they Cooper, do how many would they of normal like time only Royal O's would they have done in with leather? Because I know the more complicated ones sometimes had leather, and obviously they had other straps for the offshore
Cooper Zelnick . I'm thinking I used to work for a guy who had an amazing time only well that had a date complication royal oak on the it was yellow gold with the black alligator strap and it was pretty but it's funny Nick you're you're preaching to the choir I have a I have a few royal oaks and my uh first one I recently had a custom made Hermes style double loop strap put on it. And for me, the the the first Roy Look I owned was the 39mm Chrono from 2011. And it's just too thick for my wrist. And by putting it on a strap, I've slimmed the profile of the watch and I wear it again. So like I am I am uh totally in support of your mission there. Ye
James Stacy ah, it's not an impossibility. You know, but I I definitely don't remember them making I could be dead wrong on it, but Nick, yeah, I don't remember them making the smaller, older ones on anything other than the bracelet
Cooper Zelnick . No, no, no, no. And I've seen some of
James Stacy them. I want to say it was a uh a dual time uh from maybe 10 years ago that was on an alligator leather strap that you know had the integrated click-in feature for the lugs and all that. And it was pretty cool. I yeah, that blue dialogue
Cooper Zelnick . Oh man, that blue dial deal time is awesome
James Stacy . Yeah, they're fun watching I I I I have to admit I'm a sucker for the way the bracelet fits, but I think if I had a royal oak, if I was that fortunate to have one, I would get to a point where I'd go, like, well, I'd like the leather option too
Nick Marino . Right? Like look look what VC do
James Stacy es with the with the overseas. They come with all three
Nick Marino . Mm-hmm. They know people want to swap
James Stacy 'em. Yeah. Cooper, anything on your list? Uh uh uh let's call it a small, small sort of change that would really change the appeal of a watch
Cooper Zelnick ? Yes. This might be something you do all the time.
James Stacy You just got like a huge folder of of uh Photoshops or something like that.
Cooper Zelnick I do, I do, but I'm actually so I'll I'll blaspheme a little bit too. I'm on vacation right now and I'm wearing a uh Pat Tech Aquana 5065. I love it. I thought the 5060 was a little small. I think this watch introduced in 98 is awesome. I think it's a piece of history. I probably would never change mine. But here's the problem. If you compare the 5065 to like, you know, the 5167, you note that there's like not enough real estate on the 5065 because they have these like weird minute tick marks that are funny and misaligned. And then they have the sort of larger loom plots, and then within those, they have the numerals, and to me, it looks it actually makes the watch look too small and it looks funny. So, you know, what I would do probably is get rid of the loom plots and then move the numerals outward so you have a little bit more real estate for that kind of grenade style on the dial. You have a little bit more balance. And if you think about what they did on the 5167, there is more real estate in the center of the dial, and the numerals are larger. So it emphasizes them relative to the loom plots, which they just I think got wrong on this watch in in ninety eight. As an aside, I might delete the date window too, but that's, you know, that's my own personal um that's my own personal vendetta there.
James Stacy Yeah, get rid of it. Get it out of here. R
Cooper Zelnick ight? Like and and if you think about that watch too, there are these like weird minute marks that actually make the date window look like it's not a rectangle in this really ugly way. It is a rectangle, but it doesn't look like one. And there's this like screwed up visual illusion that happens. And every time I look at the watch, I think that has to have been a mistake. And by the way, that's probably the strongest argument both for and against customizing, right? Like yes, I should be able to correct what I perceive to be a mistake. And also it's kind of wonderful that I get to see what I perceive to be a mistake on an iconic watch. And like
James Stacy , you know, I don't know I don't know what the
Cooper Zelnick answer is but uh I I was thinking about it this morning when I put on the watch
James Stacy . Yeah I got I got two thoughts on the fifty uh sixty five because I just wrote a story about the you know the kind of birth of this this range of watches uh for when we did nineties week and the the date position relative to the minute markers is one problem. The thing that bugged me more is that it's just ever so slightly cuts into the grenade part of the dial.
Cooper Zelnick . It It does's totally screwed up. It's too wide. I feel like
James Stacy it didn't have to happen. That's just they made that adjustment for the circumference of the date wheel
Cooper Zelnick . They must have. And it doesn't make any sense.
James Stacy And then uh just recently I went and shot rare shades, this Porsche show they did uh one in Toronto, and I met um one of the many people I shot Riffshots with had a fifty sixty five and I was chatting with him about it and I couldn't quite realize what was different about it. And then he was like, Oh, if people bring it up in the comments, I brushed the bracelet on purpose. So the the bracelet for the fifty sixty five is all polished. Ye
Cooper Zelnick ah. Which I think to his credit,
James Stacy he it looked really good, brushed..
Cooper Zelnick Ye Yeahah, the bezel's brushed. Arguably the bracelet should be brushed, right
James Stacy ? I I mean you can go either way for sure. For me, a fully polished bracelet on a sport watch is a is a interesting move, not unlike the date placement. Mine is one that I think I've I've probably harped on enough. But if I could go online and buy a modern uh C Master 300M, the white dial with the black bezel on a rubber strap, and if I could simply swap out the skeleton hands for the sword hands they used on the two two five four in previous kind of that MOD look, I would have owned one of those watches when they first started making them. I've owned a 2254 and it was one of my favorite things was the sword hands. You get more loom. I I love that sort of um mid-century, like I said, MOD look. And uh and I do think that if if we ever get to that point with Omega where you could pick the watch and then say skeleton you know Bond style hands or the sword hands, I I think that would be uh that would be enough to push me over the edge for sure. Because it I mean it's a great watch as is. I don't dislike the skeleton hands to to an extreme extent, but I would really like the sword hands
Cooper Zelnick . I'm with you. I think that I'm I'm totally sold on that.
James Stacy I think we got three good three good watch ideas here
Nick Marino . Cooper, thanks for doing the show and um thanks for doing talking watches too, and wishing you all the best with with Cloyster. I think um for for a certain collector with a certain point of view, it's it
Nick Marino 's it's a really cool option to
Nick Marino have. And um I'm just glad that you're out there doing your work
Cooper Zelnick . Well, it's my pleasure. Thank you for including me and uh yeah, thanks for thanks for talking about this topic
James Stacy . Yeah, we don't have to take up any more of your vacation. We really appreciate you coming on and it was a really fascinating chat. I think that counts as a show and if you're listening and you enjoyed it, you know what I asked, please share it with a friend. Please leave us a comment. And if you have an idea of a watch mod or a thought about watch mods and customization and otherwise, hit the show notes for this episode on hodinky.com and leave us a comment. I'd love to continue the conversation and maybe even do another episode on in the future. Maybe not when uh Cooper's on vacation. Thanks so much, guys.