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Inside Audemars Piguet With Michael Friedman and Ben Clymer

Published on Sun, 15 May 2022 12:00:00 +0000

Ben chats with AP Head of Complications Michael Friedman about early Audemars Piguet, the only RD3 in the world, and the curation of Eric Clapton's legendary collection.

Synopsis

This episode of Hodinkee Radio features a conversation between Ben and Michael Friedman, head of complications for Audemars Piguet and former brand historian. The discussion begins with their personal history, having known each other for over a decade, and traces Michael's unusual path into the watch industry. Unlike most executives who come from retail or commercial backgrounds, Michael started as a psychology student interested in time theory, eventually becoming a curator at the Willard House and Clock Museum and later the National Watch and Clock Museum before joining Christie's auction house in 1999.

Michael shares fascinating insights about his time working with celebrity collector Eric Clapton in the early 2000s, helping build Clapton's legendary collection of complicated Patek Philippe watches, including the famous platinum 2499. He explains how this era was pivotal in establishing the vintage watch market, as dealers were still the primary buyers and scholarship on vintage pieces was limited. Michael then discusses his transition to Audemars Piguet in 2013 as historian, where he worked to raise awareness of vintage AP's extreme rarity—only 35 minute repeating wristwatches, around 286 calendar watches, and 305 chronographs were produced before the late 1970s, compared to hundreds of individual Patek Philippe references.

The conversation shifts to the 50th anniversary of the Royal Oak and AP's recent innovations, particularly the RD3—a self-winding flying tourbillon in the original 39mm "Jumbo" case at just 8.1mm thick. Michael explains AP's philosophy of integrated (not modular) movement construction and their plans through 2030. He addresses the challenge of meeting demand with only 50,000 watches produced annually and discusses AP's strategy of opening AP Houses rather than traditional boutiques to create cultural spaces focused on client relationships rather than pure transactions.

Transcript

Speaker
James Stacy Hey everyone, it's me, James Stacy, but this is all you're gonna get of my voice for this episode. Instead of my usual ramblings, the next hour or so features a chat between Ben and one Michael Friedman. For those of you that haven't had the pleasure of meeting Michael, you're in for a real treat, as he is Ottomar Pegay's head of complications and was previously the brand's in-house historian. Michael, like Ben, is a diehard enthusiast, a legit watch nerd, and a truly delightful personality. Oh, and he's name dropped in full on the new Kendrick Lamar album. It's wild stuff. Listen for it in the track, Rich Spirit. While I'm sad that I couldn't be in the room for this chat, I am thrilled to have it as an episode for Hoodin' Key Radio. So thanks as always for listening, and here's Ben and Michael
Ben . So we are here with a man named Michael Friedman. Michael is the head of complications for Automarpia, which is a brand I think some of you have heard of, I think. And Michael and I have known each other for going on at least 10 years, through a few different kind of iterations of personal and professional development, we'll say. And so super pleased to be here with you right now, just to kind of talk about AP, 50th anniversary Royal Oak, AP House, which is opening very soon here in New York, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Man, I'm so h
Michael Friedman appy to be here. Ben, this is my first trip back to New York since before COVID. No kidding. It's been that long. It's been that long. And as and as you know, my family have a long history here in New York. So it feels really good to be back and to be spending time with you. As you said, it's been over 10 years. I think we're I think it was 2011 we first crossed paths. That sounds right. And it's so good to see you, man. And and just just to give a visual picture for everyone out there, we we met on the street and we gave a big big bear hug. Yes. We we did in fact hug in the middle of
Ben or on the middle of uh fifty seventh street. And I held you maybe a couple seconds too long. I would expect nothing less. No. But so so Michael, for for our listeners at home, uh explain to them. So you're clearly an American by virtue of your accent here, but you said you haven't been in New York in in two years because you actually live in Switzerland. So you moved from the United States to Switzerland to work for AP, but not in the role that you're currently in
Michael Friedman . Well, uh correct. So I joined Utomark B Gay in 2013 and after having already had a long history with the company. My first project with AP was back in the year 2000 for the first time to give auction, which was benefiting the Muhammad Ali Center and Arnold Schwarzenegger's Inner City Games Foundation. But I didn't join AP until 2013. And my initial contract was as historian, but I'm a New Yorker, so I wanted to stay here at that time. So it was half, half US and half global. So I was doing a lot of travel to Switzerland and around the world from 2013 on. And then by 2018, it was clear that I was doing more and more with product, with clients, uh, along those lines. And I needed to get closer to the watchmakers, closer to the bench, closer to the facilities. So I shifted over to Lebresseux full time. I live outside of Nyon. And shortly after that, I went from historian to the head of complications. We created a new department to really, we wanted to take an approach of looking at the entire, can we create a department that goes from the earliest RD all the way through the sales under one umbrella? And it doesn't mean myself or my department is leading all of those different steps, but we're touching upon that entire process. And we wanted to do something new and something different and really let clients have that comfort and that knowledge that the whole process is being looked at really, really carefully. And the clients and the collectors are also being listened to. I wanted to be that vector. I wanted to be that voice for fans of the brand, people who were interested in watchmaking, and to be able to take all of those messages that we hear and give it right back.
Ben So now that we know and you and our listeners at home know exactly kind of who you are, and we're gonna talk about AP a lot. So to be clear, we're not done with AP for sure. I want to take a step back and talk about your early years in watches. Because your your route to where you are now, being you know, the head of a department with within you know one of the you know, I guess, top five brands in the world now based on sales. I I I hear that's that's accurate, right? Sounds right. Sounds right. You know, a a lot of folks that would end up in a position such as you're in right now might come from retail, might come from an affiliate, say like APNA, where we are right now. You came through very different avenues than than most folks with within AP. So how did you get into watches to begin
Michael Friedman with? So that's a good question, Ben. I don't know if you and I have ever spoken about this in its entirety, but when I was in university, I went to Clark University in Worcester, Massachusetts, and I was initially studying uh psychology and more fringe expressions of psychology. And I fell into what's referred to as time theory. I became very interested in the subject of time, the nature of time, and I started to study this subject through various disciplines, through of course, conventional systems, but also through art, through music, really all types of interpretations of time from art through science. And it really became an obsession during that period. And I ended up with the fortunate opportunity to become the intern of a very, very small Watching and Clock Museum in North Grafton, Massachusetts called Willard House and Clock Museum. And I started out as the intern there and was still studying at Clark University. So I was still in college at the time. And then I was promoted to the assistant curator in that role. And it was an interesting time because there weren't so many young people interested in horology. So the older generation were really excited to have this young kid who was fascinated with what they were into. And I was in this unique position to learn from some of the real experts of that era and that generation, there was just enthusiasm to have that interest. And funny enough, I there's another person in the watch business who came along to Willard House and Clock Museum while I was still there. And that's that's John reared it. Makes sense. That that tracks. That's tracks. So so John and I were actually, I call I think around 1996, we're there in the basement at the Willard House and Clock Museum curating and and doing different projects together. And from Willard House and Clock Museum, I then got the position of curator at the National Watch and Clock Museum in Columbia, Pennsylvania. That's the National Association of Watch and Clock Collectors Museum. And that was really an incredible opportunity because we were doing a brand new museum, an entire new exhibition, a new building tracking the entire history of time measurement from ancient systems all the way through the atomic clock. And that was gave me the ability to take everything I'd been studying and learning in university in the years after and to be able to bring that to life in the context of a museum. Many of those exhibitions are still in place actually if you head down to the museum. But more importantly, it's when I started to interact with real, real mentors at a very high level. Among those like people like Robert Chaney, who's one of the greatest experts of American horology, Will Andrews uh gave some incredible advice. You and I are gonna be seeing Will very, very soon. We are Carleen Stevens at the Smithsonian was one of my uh mentors early on for scientific instruments, Asian horology. She gave me a lot of time and attention and allowed me to ask endless questions. So I was just really lucky to have these experts around to learn from, to develop my craft, and to keep those academic pursuits alive. And that's been the backbone of my work. I've always wanted to approach this from that, from that scholarly lens, from that lens of real research and real consideration and real critical thinking. And since that point, I've made sure each phase of my career, I'm surrounded by mentors, by people whom I can learn from. And that's that's why I also love to teach too and love to educate and share. It's it's just part of the natural dynamic of who I am. I love to learn, I love to teach, I love to share, I love to listen. Then from National Watch and Clock Museum, I was recruited by Christie's and I was really hesitant at first. It was strange for me, the thought of it of going from a role of a curator to an auction house, but it was also New York City. So at this point I was down in Pennsylvania in Lancaster County in Columbia, Pennsylvania. So I went up to Christie's. This would have been in 1999, if I remember correctly, and uh I ended up getting the position of the head of the department of Christie's watches. And it was really sort of, let's say, the first moment where my work became more commercial. But at the same time, I really kept a strong academic backbone. So I I arrived at Christie's with my gold testing kits and my microscopes and it I brought like a laboratory kit. And they thought it was strange at first. They they really didn't know what was up. But you know, I'd I'd cut my teeth on on renaissance clocks, on on 17th century horology. So shifting that knowledge, which I had had the opportunity to learn and now to take that same degree of analysis and look at vintage Rolex dials and 1950s patek Philippe and early Odomar Piquet's and so many other types of watches and brands was a real joy. Um so I really came from a much earlier in terms of timepiece and timepiece history and have moved my way up through history, which is very strange now, because now as head of complications, I'm I'm working on mechanisms that won't see the light of day until 2028, 2030, as well as projects that are that are coming much sooner. So
Ben I want to interject for one second here because you know I think so many folks that that we all know, some of them, you know, very close friends of ours, et cetera, and so many friends that we see on Instagram these days, tend to consider themselves watch experts because they've bought a nice watch or two. They might own a Daytona. They might own a Royal Oak. They post them on Instagram and they get 10,000 followers. Right. And so what you just heard, everybody, is how you actually become an expert in watches, right? It's not about Instagram. It's not buying a nice watch. It's really taking a look at watching from an academic level and understanding where it comes from, not only where it's going. And I think you know that is something that I've always admired about Michael relative to even some of our extremely well-respected peers, that you began in this industry in a completely a commercial role. A role that had nothing to do with making millions of dollars selling watches, which is you know, now what we all kinda do. And I think it it's so rare for somebody to to take a job as a head of department in Christie's to to not come from a commercial background and to really look at things from a scientific perspective. And granted, the watch industry has evolved a lot since then, for sure. But I mean, how was it for you back then? I mean, you you said it was strange when you showed up with Christie's with a microscope. I mean d
Michael Friedman g go into that a little bit. So look, horology is among the most interdisciplinary fields in existence. The history of horology stems from a time when science and art were indistinguishable from one another. You know, remember the word art derives from the word artisan, and the artisans were the ones who were creating all the decoration on time measurement objects going back to antiquity. One fascinating aspect about objects of time measurement is no matter when you look in history and no matter where you look in history, objects of time measurement have always been decorated and revered and treated with the utmost respect. Because of what to objects of time measurement represent. They represent the passage of our own lives in that sense. And and they they are they're iconic in that sense and always have been. This is why ancient Egyptian sundials and obelisks, you can still see, you know, the greatest museums in the world have objects of time measurement side-by-side art. The Metropolitan Museum of Art right here, the Rijksmuseum, uh, the Ermitage, the British Museum. You go around the world and watches and clocks are side by side with this work of art. So I'm coming from this viewpoint, this interdisciplinary approach, this fusion of science and art. So while within the watch department, it was a little unusual, the broader departments at Christie's took quite a bit of interest. I was very, very young, and as a result, one of the youngest department heads in the history of the company, just because again, there were not many people doing what what what I was doing at that point in time, but it allowed me to build bridges with other departments. You know, when the antiquities department would get a sundial in, they would contact me. When the jewelry department would get a beautiful antique Cartier bracelet watch, they would contact me. When the decorative arts departments were getting a tall case clock in, they would contact me. So I was there in the watch department, but I quickly was able to take that expertise and also team up with other departments and other people. So that's really where I found my footing. Because just within the world of watches, at that point in time, it was still, it was still very much a very small community. The buyers at the auctions in 99, 2000, 2001 were largely dealers consigning and selling to each other and they all had their own network of clients. And it wasn't until a couple years later that more and more clients started to enter the picture and the field started to change so much. But remember that it was also a massive educational opportunity for me too. Since I my expertise wasn't in wristwatches. Now all of a sudden I'm with people like Davide Parmigiani and Matt Bain and John Goldberger who are able to teach me about these vintage wristwatches with the same degree of passion and the same degree of intention that my previous teachers had offered. So I was a quick student in that sense, and that's where I really found the happiness. The commercial side of being in auctions was always unusual for me and that's why I didn't stay for long. Because in auctions are you representing the buyer or the seller. You know, you we know you you want the seller to get the the the most money possible, but you want your buyer to get a great deal as well. And and man, one thing I'm not is like I I wear it on the sleeve. You know, exactly. You sure do. You sure do. There's no question about it. And and that's why it didn't last long for me. As much as I as appreciated uh what I learned and the people who I met and the friendships that were developed during that time, uh, I left the au
Ben ction world at the end of 2003. Right. So let's you you mentioned the the watch world back then, at least the the auction world, was really run by dealers. And even and when I got into it probably 10 years later, it was still dealers. It was it was Jeff Harris and Daviday and the guys from New York just kind of sitting around buying and selling to each other. And then there there's kind of this this great ghost in in my version of of watches from the collector side. The guy that I just missed, and we all know who it is, and the guy that so many of our friends look up to in so many different ways, and that's Eric Clapton, right? Like Eric Clapton was one of, if not the first celebrity collector of a really high order. Like he was buying platinum twenty four ninety nines. He was buying Paul Newman's in the nineties. He was buying heavy stuff before, frankly, anybody else was, at least at at a certain scale. And you were one of Eric Lapton's advisors and friends. Well, I didn't go there. All right. We don't. It's really cool. That's that's I'll tell before you go into it. The the reason that I bring up Clapton is because he is, as I've said, like I've never met the guy. I I have mutual friends, et cetera. But he exists in everybody's mind as the archetype of the celebrity collector of vintage, certainly vintage. And he's got all these custom dial 5970s and Paul Newmans and he gave so and so his first Paul Newman, you know, really kind of amazing stories. But he's so not in the conversation today when washes are hotter than ever. And in some ways I'd just love to kind of pick your brain on how much we all owe to Eric Clapton and how much we don't. And what the experience was like kind of building a collection of that magnitude in a day when nobody gave a shit about watches except for Eric Clapton
Michael Friedman . So I remember like it was yesterday, it was 2001, and I received a call from a really nice guy asking me questions about the pre-Daytonas and the transition into the Daytonas. So it was really a conversation about 6238 and how 6238 evolved. And the books weren't yet published, which were really just indicating all of these different references with all the subtleties. So I asked for his email address, and I spent, I don't know, a few hours putting together, just you know, again, I'm coming from an academic standpoint. So I shared everything that I knew about pre-daytonas and Daytonas and what was available at that time. And I sent a very detailed message with the different reference numbers, the different features, what had screwed down pushers, what didn't what the dial should be stating, all of the information that is now quite commonplace. But back then wasn't such commonplace. And he emails back and he says, My boss is gonna call. And I don't know, I mean, it was literally within 10 minutes. The phone rings and this is, you know, these aren't mobile phones. This is just the desk phone. And I answer the phone and it's it's excuse the imitation, but it's like, hello, is this Michael? Yeah. And I was like, uh yeah., this is Michael He's like, oh, it's Eric. I was like, yeah. He's like, it's Eric Clapton. I I really thought it was a joke. I really was like, no way. And and man, you know this about me. I mean, I come from a family of music fanatics. My my late father, my mother. I I was going to concerts as early before I remember I was going to shows. So much of my own life and history is punctuated and continues to be punctuated by music. So it was a really incredible call to receive, but I didn't skip a beat. I I went with it. And and and part of that was that I had already at Christie's had a couple unusual experiences with celebrities because people just come in the door at Christie's and you're left there hosting them and phone bidding with interesting personalities. I had crossed paths with Bill Murray a couple times and held my own, just walking him around the Christie's galleries. So I handled myself, I guess pretty well at that point. And it was the beginning of, let's say, an intellectual friendship regarding watches and watch collecting. And he had other people on his radar, but because of the role that I had, I wasn't somebody who was buying and selling. I was just there in an advisor role. I think I represented something of a safety zone for Eric in that sense. So I certainly helped build his collection through the work at Christie's, but also advising him on watches that were being offered from various dealers. And that led to spending quite a bit of time together. There was one stretch of time where he he had me come to his house up in Surrey for like for an entire week. And we acquired a watchmaker's bench, an antique one. And you know, he just wanted to learn the craft better. And it was initially with with Rolex and with Patek. So I taught him how to remove the bracelets. I uh taught him how to remove the casebacks, uh, how to look through the loops and determine what's original, what's not, to study the topography of dials, signatures, all of the telltale signs as to what to look for and where the warning bells are. And it was a really incredible experience to do that because he's he's very autodidactic. He really enjoys learning and studying. And it was a pretty pretty, unique experience uh in life for sure. It was actually largely Eric that actually pulled me out of Christie's. The very last sale I did at Christie's was in 2003, and it was it included the sale of his collection, which I was one of the people who helped build that up. That's the first time the albino Daytona came up at auction, as well as some other masterpieces that were in that sale. And I left, but even though I continued to do some work with watches with him, I I jumped on to the whole crossroads charity and the cream reunion shows. So it was great because those passions of horology and music, I was able to sort of spend a couple of years living it every single day. And those creamer union shows, I was still very young and and naive, but I was also old enough to be aware of how special that time was. You know, those there was only a couple shows in Madison Square Garden and at Royal Labbert Hall, but it was who was in attendance. It was just incredible. You know, it was just uh really a who's who of music and entertainment who wanted to be part of those shows and to be in the middle of that was was quite a crazy experience. So, you know, working with Eric was fascinating, but but Eric is someone who, you know, he binges and purges. He he buys, he sells. And it was something that, you know, the relationship, uh, time passed, interests changed, things move on. It was a fascinating period in my life. And it definitely helped shape me. And it also helped me understand that my passions don't have to be separate. They can live together. And that's something I struggled with early on was you know, especially at at Christie's, it was a suit and tie era. And I'm not really a suit and tie kind of guy. And it was it was very commercial and transactional. And yes, I'm head of comps at AP, but I'm people who know me know I'm really not that transactional. Like I that's for sure. Yes. You know, I really just love the passion and the conversation. So so that that experience really helped move it in that direction. But honestly, it was it was meeting somebody else during that era who's closer to my generation, even a little younger than me, that really crystallized what all of that meant. And
Ben before we move on to that, the question that I think everyone wants to know is: best watch in Eric Lapon's collection ever. What
Michael Friedman is it? Aaron Powell You know, the Platinum 2499 was an incredible journey. I wasn't the only one who was part of that. There were a few people who were involved in that. It was it was uh
Ben just to be clear. I mean we we published this in our magazine. Davide sold him the watch a few times, I think, or something like that. He sold that watch a few times. The first time Davide
Michael Friedman sold him that watch I was aware of the watch and the transaction that was going on and was with Eric to analyze the piece and was there with him at the acquisition of the piece. And it was something really special. But Eric was he became super, super into twenty four ninety nine's period. I mean, can you blame him? We can't blame him at all. I mean, it's really one of the greatest models of the twentieth century, hands down, of any brand. And what's interesting though is that he wasn't alone. There were a couple other New York collectors who were also collecting 2499s and 1518s. So between Eric and these two gentlemen, I was involved with just a very unusual number of these watches. A lot of them ended up leaving Europe and finding their way over to New York City through those two collectors or back to London in Eric's collection. And all three of them at one point had 10 or more 2499s, including some of the exotic examples. Second series rose gold, retailer signatures, Gobi Milano, Black dial, maybe. Black Dial, yeah, black dial, uh, Tiffany, some other really, really incredible pieces. And that was uh, I mean, what an incredible experience. Cause again, there was not much published at that time. So guys like John Reardon, myself, R.L. Box, and then of course the extremely knowledgeable dealers that we've been referring to, a lot of the story was being written at that point. We were putting things together in that sense. So it was it was a really an amazing time uh for watch collecting what was out there and what was being uncovered was incredible. And in terms of Patek, it was also, you know, it's it's interesting because we tend to think that values only go in one direction. And we tend to think that, but it's really not the case. You know, what's what's interesting about that era was the 1950s and 40s pieces were really popular as well. The 2441s, the 42s, all of those beautiful 9line 90 movement watches were, they were the rage in the late 90s and early 2000s. And now a lot of those are, you know, they're not so much anymore. We kind of forget about that. So it wasn't just the 2499s and the 1518s and the 2524s and the 2523s. It was also those incredible rectangular watches were a big part of the the watch scene at that point in time. Ye
Ben ah. So I mean, you know there,'s a disciple of Clapton that that we all know well that's been featured on the site that that I think nobody would be surprised to learn is is is John Mayer. And he's obviously still very involved with with Odinky, with AP, with with both of us personally. You met him early on. Yeah. It was
Michael Friedman I I crossed paths with John for the first time at the two thousand four Crossroads Festival. And for John, it was it was an a pretty incredible moment. I mean, he he had already come on the scene in a big way, but this was when his guitar playing was really literally put on center stage. And I remember it really well. The moment that he is there on stage with Buddy Guy and B.B. King and Eric, I'm side stage. Cause at that point, I'm kind of working for Eric and I'm backstage. I'm sort of helping facilitate things for him. And it was an incredible perspective to have at that moment. And I knew something special was happening at that moment in time. It was, it was literally electric. I mean it was just, and the audience's response to that performance was incredible. And then John and I personally connected and his watchmaking journey had already begun, but there was a purchase he made that was pretty significant and it was a it was a Patek 3970 P and it had been my late father well at the time my fat my dad was alive. It was my dad's watch. And that kind of, you know, that's that cements something kind of interesting. And and it it meant again, we were music fans. So my dad had no intention to sell the piece. John was looking for one. I mentioned it to my dad. My dad was like, well, yeah, that guy is amazing. Like, let's, let's do that. And uh, it was a really cool moment. And it was sort of that the first time that John and I cross paths and you know, here we are, here we are a decade almost two decades later. And um, you know, John's been one of those presences that right now, I mean, he's he's a really important fixture in my life and and and his support and friendship means the wor
Ben ld. And and John is obviously very close to to AP. Correct. I mean we see him on stage often now wearing Royal Oaks. He's wearing the fiftieth anniversary titanium flying turbulence on stage, I think. Sometimes the white ceramics. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about your role at AP. Sure. So you started out as historian. Correct. And what does that exactly mean
Michael Friedman ? So at the time when I started in 2013, we knew there was so much work to do on the vintage AP. It was clear. You knew that, I knew that. You and I had had discussions about that while when I was consulting the auction houses even. I don't know if you remember that. So the first mission was to raise the awareness through scholarship of the rarity of Odomarp gay vintage watches and specifically to start opening up the story of the Royal Oak as well as the watches that preceded the Royal Oak. And the heritage department at Otomar Peguey is fortunate to not only have talented individuals, but incredible records. So the first thing I did when I joined was really dive into the record keeping. And there had been some theories that I had been working on as an academic long before, like the origin of the minute repeating wristwatch. I had speculated that it derived from the woman's pendant watch, but I hadn't been able to prove it. Through the archives of Odomar P Gay, I was able to prove it. So I was able to link my early work as a as a scholar into this semi-commercial role, utilizing the story of Odomar Pi Gay and the records to really understand the story of the development and evolution of wristwatches in a way I never thought I would have access to. So it was it was very again, it was almost back to my origins of scholarly work initially. And the other thing that was taking place soon after I joined was we were in the early talks for the Otomar Pigay Museum. And that was a real significant reason as well to to be part of that. So you had the the archives, you had all of this work, all the collector work too. Because this was also the era where the vintage collector and the modern collector were beginning to eclipse, where it was the first time where the vintage buyer was becoming increasingly interested in retail and vice versa. Modern collectors were getting curious about what's going on with vintage. Today, ten years later, we don't even differentiate men. You're just watch guys. You're just watch collectors and watch guys and women. So that was a really incredible time to be there. So it was really the role was working with heritage, working with clients, and then of course media and press as well. They quickly learned I had a silver tongue and enjoyed writing and enjoyed speaking. So I started to work on the SH SIHH programming and presentations. And that was my pathway into contemporary watches, which I always wanted to be doing. When you do history for so long, you wanna, you wanna start writing the future, not just reflecting on the past. And that became a very distinct goal for me by by 2015. I was becoming increasingly interested in in being part of the team, writing those chapters that And it was the clients and collectors who gave me the opportunity to do that for the reasons that I mentioned before, you know, though that eclipse of those two worlds. So it was it was a really great a journey and the team is still very much present. Sebastian Vivas, the museum director, Rafael Balestra, the archivist. These are these are incredible talents as well as their teams and continue to research and work. And the the the mission was the museum as well as the creation of the complications book, which Sebastian and I wrote along with
Ben the support of of many other people. Which is an amazing book. I mean it's one of my favorite pieces of brand produced literature there is here, you know. Uh let's let's talk a little bit specifics about vintage AP, because you know something that that that I loved. And you know, for the longest time I've been saying like vintage AP and vintage Vacheron relative to vintage Patek was cheap. I mean cheap, cheap, cheap, especially when you consider how few of them there are. I forget the number, but what was the the the number of units produced per reference from AP before the Royal Oak? I mean it was something incredibly low.
Michael Friedman Keep in mind, everything before fifty-one was a unique piece. Right. There was no reference numbers until the 50s at Odomar P Gay. There are watches before 51 that have close similarities. You can find some jump hours from the 20s that are near identical, but they're not, because there was no set specs. So you're gonna see variation on movements, dials, cases uh to a certain extent. And the production number was nothing. In terms of the vintage era, and what I mean by that is before the late 70s, before the rebirth of complications, we had produced, I believe it was 35 minute repeating wristwatches. Right. That's it. Six or seven of which derived from the women's pendant watch. We had done 280-something calendar watches, including the perpetuals. Of which there are what, nine? The per the perpetuals, yeah. Of the perpetuals, yeah. Nine with leap year indication, three without leap year indication. Right. Interestingly, Vacheron Retail. They they they sold some of those. They were with AP's name on it, uh, which was quite interesting. And Patek purchased one of the very early perpetual calendars as well. All of this is in the complications book, by the way. And uh and then the chronographs, it's like three hundred and five chronographers watches, including only one split second chronograph. So this was really important findings because the reason why the watches were inexpensive was because when there's so few, you can't build a market around it. And when everything is unique, compared to Patek, where you can look at five, fifteen, eighteen's different case materials and different condition with AP, it just doesn't exist. So the scholarship needed to be in place for the market to grow. And that's really, that's I love that. I love the fact that that in in recent times it was the academic pursuit that helped drive the market reaction. That's really significant. And I think that's something also that that Vasharon it's experienced as well too. As, you know, people want knowledge today. They they want information. They want to know. Once they have all of that information in play, then they can they then they can think differently about how they're going to approach the acquisition for their collection
Ben . And just to put a quick bow on it, so you said how many calendar watches were made by AP? Oh
Michael Friedman God. Remember I'm in comps now. So you're you're you're I'm digging back to my I think it's two hundred eighty six, three hundred and five, and thirty five. So two two two eight uh eighty-six calendar watches, three oh five chronographs, and the thirty-five minute repeater. Sebastian Vivas, I apologize if
Ben my information is a little off. So again, just to just to put a very fine bow on this. So how many fifteen eighteens were made? Do you remember? I think it's like two hundred and eighty one, something like that. Something like that. In the two hundreds, and then how many twenty four ninety nines were made? Do we have uh I used to know. I I I I also used to know. This is embarrassing for both of us. Needless to say, a few hundred we'll say. Yes. You know, so when you when you're talking about just those two references of Patek's, of which there are a few dozen others, you're already talking about more watches made by Patek than the entirety of complicated watches from from AP from
Michael Friedman the vintage era. Oh yeah, I mean reference one thirty is a great example. That was made in over a thousand units. So that alone is significantly over double of the of the uh of the whole production of all Lotomarp G
Ben ay vintage comps And it's this type of information that as as you as you said, and I think this was the goal, really opened up the entire market for for vintage AP and I was happy to be a part of it, you know, as as a as a lover of the Z early chronographs and calendar watches. It is remarkably special stuff. I mean, stuff that really, you know, and I love Integrat Protect just like anybody else, it is so much more rare and so much more difficult to find. And as somebody like you and I that have seen kind of everything once or twice, it's so much more enjoyable to to kind of pursue.. Indeed And it's also the
Michael Friedman designs are out there. Yeah. You know, the unconventional nature of AP stems from the fact that everything was unique before nineteen fifty one. And the way that these watches were created was input from the markets themselves. So the distributor of Italy in 1936 would have a meeting with the representative of Otomar Pegay. They'd be looking at photographs of chronographs. But then they would be able to say, well that looks interesting, but can you make it larger? Can you do the indexes on the bezel? So you end up with watches made for markets that have a distinct identity. You can go through the Otomorphy Gay Museum and I can say to you which one's for the British market and you'll find it. Which one's for the Italian market? You'll find it. You and other people even people not into watches, but who are into design or in just understand the history of other objects can see it. And that that notion, that idea of of expression and creative expression in watchmaking that you see at AP today, it really has a very, very long history and it entirely stems from those unique creations. The other cool thing that you're gonna see is on all of the watches, the wristwchesat, going back to 1910s is that encounter of satin and mirror finishing. You know, what you see throughout the Royal Oak, that specific encounter of the high-polish mirror finishing butted up right against the satin finishing on the beveled edge, that's in almost every single wristwatch we've produced. It's uncanny.
Ben That's a great transition into to kind of why we're here today, ostensibly, which is the fiftieth anniversary of the Royal Oak. Here we are. Here we are. We made it. We did. We did. So th you know, th there's been quite a bit of new information that you guys have published about the Royal Oak this year, some of which kind of blew my mind. And and Jack wrote a great story kind of summarizing your work basically on the site. What was it about? Um what was most surprising to you about the Royal Ug, these revelations that you guys published earlier this year
Michael Friedman ? What was really exciting to see was that the myth that this was an absolute failure. And I like that that myth was overturned. It was controversial upon release, without a doubt. And that was because of the price point, the creation of this category, all of this, which is so well documented, I don't need to go over. But history had written that it was this failure as if it was sitting around and nobody wanted it. And what we saw was different. I mean, there weren't many watches coming out each month, and sure the watch had to be discovered, but it was really cool to see that it wasn't just Italy. Italy was important, but it was also Germany, it was the UK, it was other markets that adopted the Royal Oak very, very early on. And the other real fascinating thing for me was the importance of the second version, the Royal Oak 2, which was the woman's watch. You know, we really tend to look at the Royal Oak through the lens of the jumbo and of this of this more masculine tone. And when we look at the watch more carefully, I mean, remember it's a Genta design and Genta was the master of all watch design, but in particular women's watches. His women's watches of the 60s are just incredible. And also his passion for art deco design too, which you see in many of his designs. So when you look at the Royal Oak at a quick glance and you start to see, wow, each of those links descends in size, all of the polishing on all of those links and elements, you see femininity in it. You see that play of light that was a conscious part of its design. And then the fact that the second version embraced that with the Royal Oak 2 for which was a 29 millimeter woman's watch designed by Jacqueline Dimier. And then seeing how important that evolutionary thread was for the products. Because the mid-size versions came soon after, and then the complications. So for me, the biggest finding was this real pathway, this real sh quick journey from an individual model to a much more expressive, broader form. R
Ben ight, which is where we are today. Absolutely. And I I think something that that has always been so frustrating for me from the earliest days of Hodinki is this idea that AP just makes one watch, the Royal Oak, and they do it over and over again. And I think to a degree, I mean the the Royal Oak defines AP, nothing wrong with that. But I think what we've seen coming from you guys in AP, in particular, the complications department with which you helm over the past five or so years is really remarkable. So we have the supersonary RD1, which is I I think I would say the the mini repeater by which all others are measured. Then we have the RD two, which still wish it was full platinum, but we'll talk about that later. Uh but I mean the the thinnest self winding perpetual on the market, I think. Uh not anymore. Not anymore. But that
Michael Friedman and that wasn't the intention. It was the intention was to create a beautifully thin, ultra thin perpetual calendar that could s slip underneath the cuff. Got it. You know, it wasn't the the the pursuit of the thinnest was it happened to be, but that wasn't the goal because it also we wanted to be robust too. You know, we wanna peop people wear our watches every day. You know
Ben , you w reliability is important. Yeah. And then I think, you know, the the watch actually that I think you might be wearing right now, the RD three, which is effectively the jumbo, right? I mean same case dimensions, more or less. Exactly. Not even more or less. Of the original of the original jumbo.
Michael Friedman Absolutely. It's eight point one millimeters. It's it's it's spot on. With a flying turbulion. With a flying turbulion, self winding
Ben flying turn. Self winding flying turbulion. And so this is the R D three. Yes. So tell me about it. I'm gonna hand it to you. Okay.
Michael Friedman I'm passing it over to you. Oh man. So look, the RD three, the jumbo comes out, the which is the fifty-four oh two in nineteen seventy-two. Complications arrive in nineteen eighty-three, the perpetual in 1984. But when you look at the history of royal oak complications, they're generally 9.5 millimeters, give or take. So there was always a separation between the dimensions of the original and the complications. So as we've been moving through time and wanting to really look at the different styles of watches, ultra-thin, mid-size, larger format pieces. Each case architecture and format gives different design possibilities. And we love working with different dimensions and different sizes because it allows the men and women behind the bench to conceptualize different movements and different ways to express contemporary horology. But with RD3, there really was the concerted effort to start to bring, that's the important word to begin to bring, begin, because this is this is a starting point, not an ending point, high complications into the original jumbo format. And it required, just like RD2, the big shift was reimagining the entire geometry of the mechanism. What I mean by that with RD3 in particular, the turbion carriage is being driven by a peripheral gear. The turbion carriage is sitting, it's sitting inside instead of that being underneath. That's how we're able to get it flat. Um, that's how we're able to reduce the thickness of it to that point that we have here today. So, like RD2, RD3 is completely reimagined the geometry of these complications to create that size. The other really beautiful aspect of RD3 was that it was designed and built in conjunction with the 7120. It's the sister of the 7120. You can see the similarities from that size. So like the 7120, it's it's a foundation movement. It's a movement that can be built off of. Nothing is modular anymore. Everything is integrated. And it's my colleague, my wonderful genius colleague, Luca Raji and his teams, Giulio Papi and his teams, all of the watchmakers in the RD side between Lalac, where we have our La Saignole and the manufacturer, who just they they went all in on these man. They really, you know, we we feel that weight. We want to, we want to make sure each generation we're leaving our mark and we're we're not just representing the past, but we're we're helping write the next chapter for
Ben horology. We wanna we wanna move this forward. You said something that that really kind of like made the hair on the back of my neck stand up, which was nothing is modular anymore. This is integrated. And 10 years ago, that was everything in watchmaking. I remember so many conversations with Paul Boutros and all of our our our f our dorky friends out there saying, Oh, I you know, I wouldn't buy an offshore because it's a modular carnagraph, or I wouldn't so and so because it's a JLC with a module on top or or what have you. And so I y we don't really hear about that so much anymore. But I mean, that to me, as a guy who's been doing this a little while, I mean, that really resonates at at the kind of perfect pitch of understanding what watch guys or gals are really interested in today. And again, we don't talk about modular movement construction versus integrated anymore, but you're saying everything from AP now will be integrated.
Michael Friedman Yes. The idea is that we are conceptualizing the movements from the ground up in this way. I mean, this has been the shift. And let's, you know, going back to the modular movements, let's pay respect to why that is. You know, the the watch industry as we know it today wouldn't exist without the La Magna, without the Valjou, without the Jezel Coult ebosches and movement blanks. This is why the big brands are what they are. You know, the historically the idea of the big three is referring to the finishings of those industrially produced ebosches and movement blanks, which are, by the way, it's really movement blanks back then. Uh, there was barely anything going on on those on those watches. So, yes, the new generation, it's really about building foundations so we can see what comes from there. And whether we're looking at the 7120 or this, or this turbine, it's also important to be paying respect to the journey that's been taken already up to that point, but pointing the light to the future as well
Ben . And I think what what makes this watch so exciting for for me personally, as as as obviously devoted lover of the original Royal Oak, is the fact that the case dimensions are exactly the same. And I love so many watches that have come out from AP over the past 10 years since the 40th anniversary. But when we upsized to 41 millimeters, we lost a little bit of something for for the dorks like me, you know. And the perpetual I'm wearing today is a 39 millimeter perpetual. And would I would I wear a 41? Certainly, for sure. But would I prefer it in 39? No question about it. So the fact that we have a flying turbulent in a 39, slim. It's just remarkable. And again, to the people like me who've been around for a little while, like this sends the right signal to me as a guy who's been around a long time. And it says that you're paying attention, AP is paying attention to what made AP so special and the Royal Oak so special.
Michael Friedman Absolutely. And it's not just the 39. We're going to be also coming this September with the 37 millimeter as well. It's the same movement. We designed the movement to be able to also go into the 37 millimeter Royal Oak. So in September, you're going to see arriving uh not many pieces, because it's the first generation. You start slow with the new movement, it takes a while, but both 39 and 37 millimeter self-winding flying turbul
Ben ence. And so you said this will be the first of a few complications coming into the original form factor of the jumbo
Michael Friedman . I think you know with us well, when you see something new, there's always the possibility for other interpretations and evolutions to take place. So that's definitely a possibility. We love our concept and all of that that provides with that larger format and that path for futurism. We love the code architecture, especially with the open work movements and what we can do with that exquisite case. But it's also time to put a lot of attention into these ultra-thin and extra-thin movements with modern automatic reliability as well. So that's where we're in now with RD2 and RD3. And those aren't going to be isolated projects. We absolutely are going to be continuing to work on movements across all of those formats. On complications, there's plans already up through 2030. We work really, really ahead on RD and on planning for future movements. It's really the most amazing part of of the job, Ben, is to be in the room with those people I mentioned before, with the Lucas and with the Julio's, just to be a fly on the wall and to listen and to and to follow those guys. It's incredible. But more importantly, I I get to bring everyone who That's what I love the most is being the vehicle for the clients, for the enthusiasts, and to come in. And when so somebody asks at HQ a few years ago, hey, will there will there be a market for an extra thin turbion and a jumbo case? Is that something we we we really can put a lot of investment and interest to? It's wonderful to be able to unapologetically say, absolutely people are ready for it, even if it costs a little more, even if it takes time, people are going to be very excited to see something like that. We're not going to abandon the 41 millimeter format by any means, because there's also a very strong market for those watches too. And remember, thinness is wonderful, but you do lose the ability to see some of the detail and finishing when you go thin. So we definitely will still have clients and collectors who are interested in our in our mid-size and larger format
Ben watches as well. Yeah. And and to me, this watch really does send a signal to again people like me who I consider, you know, relatively core to the brand and and and a purist in in so many ways and says, okay, you you haven't forgotten us. You know, and I think that I I'm already kind of like in my mind's eye, I can see the comments already and it's Black Panther and it's code and it's oh, you know, what is this? Like what are they doing, et cetera? I mean, this is really right up the center of what a dork like me would love in in in a watch, in a royal oak. And you know, I think often of Omega as a brand that does a really good job of being commercial, right? Like they they sponsor the Olympics, James Bond, but they also do a Speedy Tuesday. And they do this, and the 321 is back. And I think it's this idea of being of like a mainstream commercial brand, but also speaking to the core, the base, so to speak. And it seems like with this watch, AP is really doing that
Michael Friedman . Absolutely. And by the I love your reference to Omega. You I I think you know I have a quite the Omega dynamic collection that I acquired back in my youth. I love those pieces. No, you're you're spot on with that. And you know, I want to talk a little bit about that. You know, the you mentioned Black Panther. It's, you know, the Black Panther concept we released shortly around the same time as our Grand Sonore code with dials by Anita Porcher. You know, the way to look at Otomar P Gay, it's like we create so many different types of watches. Our intention isn't to create one model for everyone. We love the fact that we all have such individual tastes and styles and aesthetics that if we under this one umbrella can create and release watches that appeal to different people for different reasons, we know we're back to music in a lot of ways. You know, you can enjoy classical music, you can enjoy rock, you can enjoy hip-hop, you can enjoy folk. One doesn't undo the other. There's enough to have love and passion and appreciation for different products within a brand as well as between different brands. It's like film again as well. If your favorite director, you know, does action films and switches over to a romance, it's still going to be shot beautifully. It might not be what your genre is, but there's still something to appreciate. That's something that my whole career has and will continue to seek out is bringing and and focusing on that passion and optimism of really bringing love and appreciation for everybody's interests. And at AP, we really feel that. We know not one watch will be for everyone. We're of course aware of that. It doesn't mean we should do anything other though than what we're doing. And we're going to continue to release watches that are let's say the hits for the purists and some things that are a little more experimental for the adventurous and things in between. And there's watches we're gonna release that you're gonna love and watches you're gonna release that aren't for you. And that's that's all right. That's a good thing. That's a good thing
Ben . So I mean a question that I have to ask because it's year 2022 and you you speak for Automar PK, one of the hottest brands in the world. Let's say I, or some other well-heeled individual, wanted to buy this watch. Would it even be possible? Possible, but difficult. Ex
Michael Friedman plain that. It's about capacity. We're hitting 50,000 watches this year, but complications only represent a very, very small number of those. And we don't limit production of these watches by choice. We're making as many perpetual calendars as we can today, as many turbines, as many repeaters as we possibly can. But when you already have a small number, because of again the way we're finishing, the way we're continuing to produce these pieces, take perpetuals alone. You have code, you have royal oak, you have ceramic, you have gold, you have steel, different dial combinations, different market editions. You start with a small pie and then you cut it up and cut it up further and further and further. And before you know it, we're lucky to be producing 100, 150 pieces of an individual model per year. Whether it's limited edition or not, they're all limited production by nature of the capacity issues that we have. And it is it is an issue by the way. It's something that we're working on and we are training more watchmakers and we are expanding facilities. I mentioned earlier La Sagnole, which used to be Audomar Piquet Lalac, which used to be Audomar Pigue Renault Papy, which used to be Renault Papy, just to go through the timeline over there, we are in a position now to be able to begin the process of increasing production to try to confront that. But even though we've moved from 40,000 to 50,000 watches over the last few years, the demand has gotten much, much larger than that. Watches in general have become something else. It's it's become popular in a way that nobody anticipated and expected. And when you are already dealing with such a small quantity, no remember Rolex, the wonderful brand Rolex has same issues and they're producing how many watches per year? Upwards of a million? Something like that. So we're at 50,000. They're at a million. Right. And it's and it's it's it's challenging there as well. But this is also why we're putting so much effort into not just increasing production a little bit, but also to to open up the world of Odomarp gay through the houses, through the educational efforts, through the cultural efforts, through the ambassador relationships. And yeah, it's it is a challenge. It's it is for us too, you know, and we're aware of it and we're aware of the frustration in that sense. But all we can do in that sense is bring people in, share with them how we're creating our watches, inviting people over to LibraSue to discover the museum, the m So you're saying I can buy this watch? Is that what you're saying? I'm saying you can buy this watch
Ben next year or the year after. Not this year, Ben. And so so this watch w uh I I guess there's how many of these in the world right now?
Michael Friedman Uh that's the only one right now. So there's only one. That's the prototype. The others are coming. They're they're being produced right now. Yeah. We're gonna begin shipping this piece in September. We announced it recently, as well as the 37. Okay. And do do we have a price on this watch yet? In US dollars, it's uh it's gonna well remember uh watches at that at that price are based on the Swiss franc, things over 100,000, but give or take, it's gonna be around 170,000 USD, something along those lines. And the standard flying turbulence is is how much? It's a little less. It's it's closer to around 135
Ben , 140. Aaron Powell And you would imagine that there would be very little pushback based
Michael Friedman on feedback so far. Absolutely. We witnessed this with RD2, which was priced quite a bit higher than the typical perpetual calendars. But when when clients know that we've put five years of R and D and we're just beginning production of something. It's special, it's highly specialized. The assembly of the pieces requires very specific expertise. The quantities are very small. So no, I I I don't think we'll get uh we'll get pushback on those pieces.
Ben Aaron Powell And so uh you know, as as we kind of wrap up here, a as the head of complications for AP, and obviously I don't expect you to give away the the the secret sauce here. What can we be excited about as as real watch nerds? And I still think Hodinky represents the nerd in many of us. Absolutely. That's why we love Hodinky
Michael Friedman . With complications, I can assure you that each year between now and again up to that pathway towards 2030, we want to be adding new chapters to the story of AP complications. So already and you're gonna see more this year, by the way. Yes. There's gonna be more complications this year, some new models. We're going to see 23. There are some great, great pieces coming. There's something coming in 24, which you're just gonna melt over. It's like I I know I'm giving you a really early tease there. And then obviously with 2025, we're at our 150th anniversary. So we're gonna wanna come strong. But what we didn't wanna do is do 2022 really strong and 2025 really strong. We really made the decision to to pace things and to have a couple really cool new new releases each year as well as interpretations of existing models as well. A
Ben aron Powell You know so we we talked a little bit about the the the scarcity and and and that is that just is in watches in 2022. And another tack that AP has taken is, you know, bluntly to to close a lot of authorized dealers and open up something called AP houses, which is different than a boutique. Can you explain that a little bit
Michael Friedman ? Absolutely. So we have moved towards a much more retail model. this At point, about 80, 85% of our distribution is either owned by us or in joint ventures. And the reason of doing that is as a private independent company, we want to know our clients, we want to interact with them, we want to have a much longer journey with them. I mean, Ben, you know there's clients in our portfolio that I I've known since they were seven, eight years old and they're now mega collectors. They were this literally the sons and daughters of clients I worked with a generation ago. So what's important about AP House is is going back to that non-transactional cultural engagement side of things. We come from the premise, you know, watches, watches aren't separate from culture. They're the heartbeat of culture. It's back to what I said in the very beginning about objects of time measurement and their place in culture. We want the AP house to be a place where people can enjoy, reflect, share, for our clients to be able to have a special experience and to be able to sit down, have an intimate moment, and uh and really just remind each other of how fun this is all supposed to be. You know, there is moments of frustration and challenge and all of these things. We want, we want to get back to that notion of excitement and of fun and of pleasure. That's the most incredible thing about working in this business. And I I remind people inside the company all the time, especially younger people, our jobs and our careers are our clients moments of pleasure and release. We're not, when you're a doctor, you have a great job, but you're dealing with people in difficult situations, lawyer the same, architects the same. So many businesses, even when you're building something, there can be that degree of of pressure. With us, it's really about enjoyment and fun. And the house is really meant to be the ultimate expression of that. And we have one opening up in New York. It should be any day now. You know, we're we're fine-tuning and uh and I'm thinking we're gonna we're gonna start seeing some activity there in mid-May, if not sooner. Amazing. Michael, such a treat to see you. Such a treat to have you on Hodinki Radio. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you all so much, Ben. It's so so good to see you. I miss you so much. I miss coming by the Hodinki office. I miss the old days when it was just a few of us kicking around. Um and I I really want to to thank you and your listeners for giving me the time. And I really look forward to to meeting all you guys out there on the road. Okay. We'll have you back very soon. Take care.