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Ben Clymer and Jeff Fowler – A Tale Of Two CEOs

Published on Sun, 8 May 2022 12:00:00 +0000

Hodinkee's new CEO, Jeff Fowler, joins Ben Clymer to chat about Hodinkee past and present, the watch industry, luxury, and more.

Synopsis

In this episode of Hodinkee Radio, host James Stacey interviews Hodinkee's founder Ben Clymer and newly appointed CEO Jeff Fowler. The conversation marks Fowler's first podcast appearance since joining the company in March after a distinguished career at luxury brands including Louis Vuitton, Tag Heuer, Cartier, and most recently as President of the Americas for Farfetch.

The discussion begins with light personal questions about watches, books, and preferences before delving into the business side of Hodinkee. Fowler explains his rapid six-week journey from initial recruiter contact to accepting the CEO position, driven by his admiration for what Clymer had built and the company's potential for growth. Clymer discusses how Fowler's arrival allows him to focus on content creation and community engagement—the aspects of the business he's most passionate about—while benefiting from Fowler's expertise in scaling luxury businesses.

The conversation explores deeper questions about measuring success, the nature of luxury, and Hodinkee's role in the watch industry. Both executives emphasize that success isn't just about numbers but about employee satisfaction, community engagement, and maintaining the authentic, enthusiastic culture that has defined Hodinkee since its founding 14 years ago. They push back against exclusionary attitudes in luxury, arguing that the watch industry needs to be more inclusive and welcoming to new enthusiasts.

Fowler draws parallels between his experience at Farfetch—where he helped guide traditional luxury brands into digital spaces—and his vision for Hodinkee's continued influence in democratizing watch enthusiasm. Both men stress that Hodinkee isn't just a luxury publication but a "platform for enthusiasm" that celebrates quality, craftsmanship, and the joy of appreciating things you don't necessarily need but genuinely want. The episode concludes with reflections on Hodinkee's diverse entry points for new audiences and their commitment to maintaining authenticity while growing the business.

Transcript

Speaker
James Stacey This episode of Hoodinky Radio is proudly brought to you by Rado and the new Captain Cook Overpole. Planning to visit some far flung locale? Just spin the bezel to start your adventure right on time. Please stay tuned for more information later in the show or visit Rado.com for all the details. CEO Jeff Fowler. Before finding his way to Hodinki, Jeff worked for Louis Vuitton, Tag Hoyer, Cartier, Tesla, and most recently, he was operating as the president of the Americas for the online luxury retailer Farfetch. He's a real pro, a consummate family man, and also happens to be a frequent listener of Hodinky Radio. So the deck is stacked in my favor. It's a tale of two CEOs, and unsurprisingly, we get into the nitty-gritty sort of inside baseball of what it is to lead a company like Hodinky, what the brand's role should be in the world of watches, how to measure success, and even a consideration of luxury at large. Ben and Jeff are busy guys, so let's get to it. Alright guys, this is a treat. Ben, Jeff, welcome to the show. Ben, you've been on many times. Jeff this is a first time. I hope I think we'll probably do this uh uh many more times, but uh this is a great what a what a nice way to start the week. Long time listener, first time uh participant, James. Uh really excited to be here. Yeah, I'm I'm a bit of a fan. We gotta say that's uh that's way too sweet. It's actually one of the first things uh you ever said when we when we uh met each other was that you uh you actually listened to the show, which I appreciate very much and I I hope uh I hope I can we can keep you as an audience member after uh after this episode. Yeah, you know if you don't you have problems, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Hey, if there's a new host and not much of an explanation, we'll know why, right? These things are always in flux. You know, Jeff, we did uh uh there's a little intro that people would have heard already, but I I'm curious, I I would love you to kind of introduce yourself to the audience in some way, what brought you to Hodinky. We've got tons of stuff to get into, but I think that's probably the natural place
Jeff Fowler to start. Yeah, sure. Thanks for the opportunity, James. It's it's really exciting to be here. Um so my name is Jeff Fowler. As was mentioned, I am the recently joined CEO of Hodinki, joined in March of this year. So I'm really less than two months in. But my background is I've spent most of my career in the broader luxury goods industry with companies like Louis Vuitton, Tag Hoyer, Cartier. I made a bit of a pivot to uh Tesla for a brief period of my career. And then for the last five and a half years, spent it with a company called Farfetch, which is uh an online luxury fashion marketplace and more broadly a platform for the luxury fashion industry, a technology platform. So really got to see an experience with high growth across a broader industry, a company that started uh private and obviously went public over the last six years as well. I was leaving the Americas for Farfetch, based in New York, but traveling between LA, Sao Paulo, London, where the company's headquartered, and just had a fantastic experience. Um and then I guess on a more personal level, I I live in uh Westchester, have three kids, three boys, uh, English, Springer, Spaniel, and uh I'm originally from Syracuse, New York, up
James Stacey state. So fantastic. Well, you can tell you've done that a couple of times. Very impressive. I want to get into all that and I think there's a lot of questions that'll be natural to our audience. But I I think it might be kind of fun to start with sort of um architectural digest sort of a a a a blast of quick questions. Uh and Ben, please, uh, please, these are most of these are included for you as well. What's the last book you read? So the the last book that I read was actually Gary Steingart's book. Uh oh and how oh how is I'm that
Ben Clymer 's on my list. It's in the Kindle. I haven't gotten to it just yet. It's great. I mean it's like anytime you read a book that was written by somebody you know, it there's just like that additional level of excitement. Even more so with Gary Steingart, because there's often watch references and in in this book and as well as one of those other books, there's actually somebody that is effectively me in the book, which is always just like really awkward where like one of his characters went on like a blind date with somebody that's like a luxury watch blogger turned journalist and she like doesn't connect with him. And then always then the next time I see Gary, I'm like, hey, what happened? Like, you don't like me enough? You know, so that it was actually Gary's book, which is excellent, by the way, and lots of fun references there. Uh, and always fun to guess who kind of like the celebrity is in that one. And yeah, it was it was Gary's book. That's awes
Jeff Fowler ome. Yeah, mine was the riveting page turner? Where is the pirate? It's about seven pages, um, made of cardboard stock, each page with a little flap of felt uh behind which you'll have a little animal. It is um it's it's you can't put it down, and it's fascinating for the three and under set. Okay
James Stacey . That's it's a core audience for sure. I respect that. No doubt. I'd love to know, you know, Ben, this is one that I think every everyone who's followed Hodinki for any amount of time would probably already know your answer for this one. So I think we could probably give this one just to Jeffrey. But what's the watch that kind of got you into watches? The watch that got me into wat
Jeff Fowler ches. It's hard to say. Uh yeah, for me I'd have to go back to the time that I worked at Tag Hoyer uh and I'd go with the micrograph the watch that can measure one one hundredth of a second and again i i think what struck me was that this is a watch that went well beyond the necessity of what a watch needed to do no tell time uh was really pushing the boundaries of like how much precision you could capture in a in a wristwatch, the ability to measure, you know, smaller and smaller increments of time obviously necessary when you know trying to measure uh vehicles in a race or or other things, you know, and and tagware is sort of taking that idea of, you know, the smallest increments of precise timekeeping to the extreme. The the micrograph for me was, you know, a technical kind of feat, but also just a beautiful watch. Like I'd wear it every day. And uh again, just sort of I was working for the brand at the time, had a chance to go and visit uh the manufacturer and and it just struck me on so many levels. Emotional, technical, just a watch that it would aspire to own one day. Ye
James Stacey ah, that one always kind of felt like super tag, like it it really fit the whole and it was like very modern and and it kind of represented what what the brand had kind of come to. I I think that's a good pick. I remember those being the really impressed by those back uh when they when they had first come out. Ben Stones or Beatles? Oh Beatles. Is it is that a real question? Going for some kind of general that wasn't a one question to me. But yeah, Beatles all
Jeff Fowler that. Okay, fair enough. Jeffrey, you agree? I mean, my first son's name is Lennon, so uh I'll leave it at that
James Stacey . There's there's the default, that's fair. Uh would you prefer to, you know, do a new mini series or start a new book? Which one kind of gets your attention first? Something great on Netflix or something on the bedside table. Uh for
Jeff Fowler me it's mini series, but it's probably because it's it's a chance to to enjoy something collectively with with my wife between work and kids. Uh it's just something we were able to enjoy together
Ben Clymer is to get into a new series. Yeah. Absolutely. I I would co-sign that. It's just right now my attention span is is so uh so limited. And I just think like reading a book right now is such an endeavor for me just with all that I have going on. And I'm so easily distracted that it's it's a it's a struggle these days. Fair. I agree. What's a watch that you love but probably wouldn't wear? Oh man, a watch that I love that I probably wouldn't wear. I was gonna say the RM2701, which is like now several million dollar Rakham Adal, you know, kind of crazy thing. I probably would wear it. I just wouldn't wear it around town. Uh like I'd wear it at my house, basically. Uh I think, you know, I it's funny that we don't we don't talk about Richard Mill a lot uh on Hodinki just because it's so out there. But the ARM 27 and the 2701, the two first Rafa Nadals were were like there are moments that I remember in my like watch journalist career that like still stand out. And the first time I held a 27, which was the very first Nadal, I just remember being handed it by somebody at Anticorum and just started laughing. It's the only response. It's just wild. I mean it's lighter than a piece of paper. And at the time retail on that watch was 695,000. I think it's probably worth about three or four million at this point. So like I'm never going to own this watch for sure. Um, but that is one I would I I adore and just would would never wear. In particular now because there's this like kind of crazy crime wave targeting Richard Meals of all things. Like Richard Meal used to be the thing to wear because you didn't want people to know how much money you had. Now it's like the the signifier of how much money you have. So that would be a tough one for me to wear around town, definitely
James Stacey . I think that's a great pick. I mean that I I think that kind of suits the role because this is what an impressive watch. And I I remember reading your story. This was been the better part of eight, nine years ago, right? And uh and just being blown away. I think at the time they said that if you took the strap off it, it would float in water. Correct. Like hypothetically, it could display it could displace more than its weight, which is ridiculous. Uh how about you
Jeff Fowler ? For me, it's a not one specific watch. It's more, it's more anything covered in diamonds, which again is something for some people. And I feel like in my mind, I'd like to think I could probably pull it off with the right outfit and I'd put it on and I would realize what an absolute mistake that would have been. Uh it's just wouldn't be for me. So I'll I'll leave that to someone else, someone
James Stacey else's taste. I like that answer as well. I you know I it is something where when I see it on someone else you, go kind of like, Oh that that can work for pretty well. That looks pretty pretty rad, but then I'm not sure, you know, uh jeans and a t shirt that doesn't always work
Ben Clymer for uh for the full Pave look. It it's hard, I mean not not to not to name this is not a name proper because we talk about them all the time, but like hanging out with John Mayer gives you this idea that like you can do stuff that like you really cannot do, such as wear watches covered in dye. Yeah. And like he can he can wear it with ease, with the greatest of ease. And a guy like like you or I Jeff or J
James Stacey ames, I think would was strong. Yeah, and I can't do uh just like I can't do a cape, I also can't do uh you know a full a full diamond watch. A kimono, yeah visit kimono.
Jeff Fowler I feel like if you were sitting court side in an NBA game you'd think I can pull this off. But I again, the number of guys well, plenty of people can sit courtside by an NBA game, but the number of guys who can do that and pull off a diamond and crest
Ben Clymer and watch very, very few. I think it's just a totally different level. Yeah, and it's also like if you happen to get demoted like one row and you're sitting in like the second row, then you can no longer wear the diamond
James Stacey covered box. I think so. And uh and I'm sure this is a a changing metric for for what I think will be kind of our our final kind of rapid fire watch and watch adjacent sort of question. What about uh a grail watch? Do you have is there something on the mind right now? I mean, I I think it's something that changes a lot for for a lot of folks. But uh Jeff, you got a Grail watch in mind? Some something that's your eye in for maybe celebrating the first year with Hodenke? Yeah. Um Ben know
Jeff Fowler s this. Is uh I I I love manga um and i have always loved manga as a brand when i was setting up my hooding community profile and i was clicking you know which your favorite watch brands that was the first one i typed in i'm pretty open to a variety of different. I mean, I wouldn't mind a few if if I had to go with a first uh along the one. I mean, it's just such a classic. I love the look of it. Perfect. Yeah. I originally found the look actually a, little bit off-putting, but the more I looked at it, the more I spent time with it. Someone who works for the brand told me, you know, that actually the ability to tell time or take whatever piece of information off of it you want to is so beautifully designed because each thing sort of lives in its own zone. And even as they layer additional features, complications onto the watch, they do it in such a way that that remains. You know, there's still the compartmentalization of the information is done in such a way that I think you can at a glance on the time zone watch, sort of tell what time it is in your second time zone. And I just love that. Um, and then that coupled with I guess like the just incredible quality and design and and sort of each detail just being so perfectly beautifully built. I that that that sort of would would be it for me I'd say would be uh would be a long way. I think that's a great call
Ben Clymer for sure. How about you, Ben? For me, I'm like weirdly kind of coming around and I think it's it's a product of it being auction week. Uh, you know, here. So meva coming up this week. I'm really into vintage paddock right now, which I kind of, you know, come and go from, you know, all the time, basically. Uh right now, you know, 3448 is a watch I've always wanted. I've never owned one. I I actually on this podcast told the audience I was the underbitter on that amazing 3448 yellow from like two years ago, I think at Phillips, New York, maybe. Uh didn't get it. Um, I passed on 3448 whites when they were like 200 grand, which is a ton of money, obviously. But in the context of what it is now, it's not that crazy. Now they're like six, seven hundred. Thirty-fourty eight is a watch. I would love to own. I would, you know, would love to find one of those or um 1436 which is the sp a super small split second paddock okay from the vintage era so split second paddock you know kind of in in the in the mid-century is is is pretty tough to argue with um always wanted one of those, never found the right one at the right price. Um, so yeah, steel 1463 would always, you know, would would always take. But yeah, I'm kind of into those like an old school vintage paddocks right now. Fantastic
James Stacey . Well, look, I think uh I think that pretty much warms up uh warms up everybody gets a gets an idea, some taste and and where br where our brains are. So I think that's good. But I'd love to start with and and Ben, I think this is a question for you, you know, 'cause uh you've long been kind of the face, the head of Hodinky in in many ways, and even though uh you know, of course we had Toby as a CEO for some time just previously, what does you know, Jeff's arrival kind of mean for your involvement with Hodinki? You're still uh you know chairman of the board, but what does uh what does this mean for sort of your day to day are people gonna see more or less of Ben? I think it's something that'll come up if I don't if I didn't didn't be in the comments, certainly. Of course. I
Ben Clymer mean I think what it means for me is just kind of like a renewed passion and excitement for for the business. You know, and I think like I this is year 14 for me. Like this is not like this is not a new thing for me. I mean, I'm Hodinki in in its current guise is very new, of course, and that you know we have this amazing team in Atlanta, and we've got you you James and others abroad, and of course, Jeff joining us here. Like, so it it it's new in the sense that like there's a lot of new you know amazing people around but i think what what what jeff brings for me is the ability to to really focus my talents whatever they may be on really pushing things forward and i i think, you know, for the longest time, and you know, it's no surprise like the audience has seen me kind of come and go as like very public and sometimes not so public uh faces of Hodinki. I mean, I was off Instagram for three full years, you know, that that's a long period of time and really wasn't seen on on the site a ton during that period. And I think you'll see now like I'm back on Instagram and I hosted this thing with Ed Sheeran uh earlier in the year. And I we're about to launch really great talking watches with uh this amazing collection that's showing in London, you know, arguably one of the greatest tech collections in the world. And so I think, you know, with with Jeff in place, I really feel great about where the company is headed and what we're kind of up to. So that allows me to kind of do the stuff that I love, which right now is in fact kind of getting into the weeds in in with the watch community. And you know, I attended this premiere of uh the Timekeeper film last week. And that was my first public watch event in over two years. It felt good to be back out there. So, you know, with with Jeff, who's you know an extremely seasoned, you know, professional uh leader, I think it allows me to kind of have the fun that that I missed kind of having in in some ways, which is a really exciting position for me to be in. But similarly, you know, it allows me to learn from somebody who has done stuff that I have not done, being, you know, Jeff running a very large company prior to joining Hodinki. But ultimately it just makes me more excited about the future of what we're gonna do. And I think, you know, you'll you guys at home will hear from Jeff today. But like just an incredibly like hyper compassionate and hyper empathetic person that really understands how much hodinky uh means to the community. And I don't mean like in in a financial sense, like we mean a lot to the community and the community means a lot to us in the sense that like we really care what people say about us. And I think similarly, the community cares what we have to say. And so I think, you know, people such as yourself, James, will find an even kind of a more welcoming and kind of encouraging home with Jeff as the CEO. And I think that's really important that that the content remains really pure and remains really kind of grounded in in everything we do. And I think I think Jeff will ensure of that. Absolutely. Jeff, anything you'd like to add? Yeah. I me
Jeff Fowler an a lot of what Ben shared there, he shared with me, you know, personally as I was exploring the opportunity and interviewing with Ben and with members of the board and the team. And hearing him say something like, you know, it's 14 years in and he's never been as excited about the company and his prospects as he is now. I mean, for anyone who's been a part of the Hodinki journey for a long time, I should say that, you know, I first encountered the company almost 10 years ago when I was working in the watch industry with Tag Orier with Cartier. And even then, you know, I was very aware of Ben and the impact he was having and the team in the industry. But to hear him say that was really compelling for me. You know, he also used the word partner and I think of us as partners in the business. And Ben can do things that you know he he he uniquely can do these things because of of his stature in the industry, his experience, his knowledge, you know, and like he said, he gets to work on a lot of fun. I hope by default that doesn't mean only work on the non-fun stuff. I I I I personally find it really, really fun, you know, working on the kind of intricacies of building a company and of you know trying to establish the right kinds of process um that people find helpful, but without layering so much in that they find it you know constraining when they've been a part of a really agile, nimble you know, organization to that point. But I get super excited just hearing him explain the things he'll be focusing more of assignment attention on. I think those are some of the very best things that you know hooding he has going for it. And uh, you know, to his point around, you know, folks in the company or folks who are part of the community, let you know their, their, their, their experiences be the measure of our success of what that looks like but uh but I'm super obviously optimistic and positive about what the future hold
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Jeff Fowler question and it's one that I've gotten a few times and and I think it it's only natural to ask that question. I think far fetched is an unbelievable company that continues to really have an outsized impact on the industry. It's transforming, you know, multiple areas of the industry. And it's doing it most importantly with an unbelievable culture and always a view towards trying to make uh the industry healthier, stronger and better in the long run. And I I I firmly believe that. So it's not just about what it does, it's how it does it that are equally important. I I wasn't looking to leave, honestly. Um it wasn't one of those things where I was sort of polishing up my resume and getting in touch with, you know, recruiters to kind of put myself out there as a candidate. I was uh actually, we just had our third son in just over three years in early December. I was on paternity leave. I was going to take a few weeks because I was pretty convinced this would be the last son, the last child of any type. So about a week into that, I I was contacted by a recruiter, and this is often the case, you know, you get some sort of unsolicited outreach. Um, and it was someone who whose firm I knew, and so I was willing to take the call. And often I found by talking to recruiters, you're also just learning about what's going on in the industry. You know, I would hear about competitors hiring for roles and that would just give me some inside intel. And the recruiters as a whole they tend to try and be a little coy about who they're calling on behalf of often they have NBAs and things like that in place that they can't disclose. But you know, within two sentences, I sort of knew this was Hodinki and Ben's creation. And it was pretty obvious to me. And again, knowing about the company being being a fan and really admiring what had been built. I thought it's worth a conversation. So I had a conversation first with the recruiter. From there, the recruiter suggested that I come in and meet Ben. I met Ben and one of the board members of the company, a guy called Jake, and we just had a really great conversation. It was like some electricity and sparks in the air. And I was hearing a lot of what I was, I was, I was loving a lot of what I was hearing. And I guess feeling must have been mutual because they invited me back around for a series of additional conversations and and James, I guess from the first phone call, the outreach that the recruiter made, I'd have to go back and put in the calendar, but it must have been early December, maybe the seventh or eighth of the month, to when I accepted the offer, just to kind of jump to the end of the story, it was a matter of about six weeks during which you had, you know, the uh holiday period, um, a series of you know, many, many conversations, some you know, mostly over Zoom, some in person, where I met almost every member of the board of the company. I met the the C level uh executives who would eventually become my my director for it's my team, had multiple conversations with Ben, who was extremely generous with his time. And it was a really gradual, but only one direction this process was going in. And by the way, I mentioned earlier in the conversation that I was a multiple times listener, first-time contributor. Uh, you were a part of that journey. I was listening to, I think, the radio on trips outside of where I live. Maybe I was going up to the Catskills for some skiing. Anytime I was in the car I'd put on an episode and I would learn a little bit more about the company. I was watching practically every Talking Watches video on YouTube. Um I asked my brother who's a year older than me for some advice and he uh I just asked him you know what would you do? How would you think about this? And he went away for a few days and came back with like a 20 page PowerPoint. He had bought a watch on the site. He had like read a bunch of custom reviews and he had it like all distilled into this presentation. For which I I I was incredibly gracious. And I actually first one of the first purchases I made at it Hoding. He was a Hamilton Field watch for my brother who works um with some affiliation in the military. I did that just as a thank you and I had it engraved for him just to sort of celebrate the milestone. But um that's great. You know what's funny was like the person who knows me best uh in this world is my wife. And about two weeks before there was an actual offer on the table to consider. So we're now talking like week three or four, the grants be clear, she just made this proclamation. She said, this is happening. They want you and you want it. And she just called it. I mean, like she could like see in her crystal ball. And she was totally right. And I knew she was right, but I didn't want to believe it yet, partly because I didn't want to count my chicken before they hatch. You know, I didn't sort of like assume that the offer would come and um just not uh you know suppose didn't jinx it, but also just kind of humble like that. And um sure enough, the offer came through. And again, by then I was intellectually curious, I was up for the challenge of being brand new at something again and not knowing most or the majority of the answers. I love the size and stage of the company, if I'm honestly sort of a 14 years old company, but still very much in the building phase. Feels like it's early innings of the impact that Hodinki can continue to have in the industry. The culture was one that I felt I could be right at home in and continue to help to build over the course of many years to come. So it was a combination of so many factors. Uh and ultimately it was just a kind of a no-brainer, but um not because I was running away from something to be clear. It was like running towards this really amazinging th that I felt was way you know welcoming me in with open arms and uh I you know I'm less than two months in now James I've I've had uh a variety of different you know opportunities to meet people in the business, traveled over to Geneva with you and members of the team for Watches and Wonders, uh down to Atlanta a couple times to visit our offices and our teams down there. And you know, it's like less than 90 days in. I have to say everything that I hoped would be true is true and then some and I feel just super excited every day when I get to come into work and just get started, you know, working on the next proje
James Stacey ct. That's fantastic. Yeah. And uh seems like a natural pick to me from the very much the outside, kind of the peripheral, but like you said, we got a chance to meet and even hang out a little bit in uh in Geneva and uh I can I can see why people figured it out. But I you know, uh Ben, I'd like to turn kind of the same question on its head towards you. Why
Ben Clymer Jeff? Why Jeff indeed? No, that's uh first of all, he's from Syracuse, New York, and plays golf. That's kind of like all you need to know, you know. Uh no, it's um it's funny. I mean, like uh, you know, first of all, I I wanna talk about Toby, who was the CEO, you know, directly directly prior to to Jeff and and Toby did an amazing job and you know Toby who had built Mr. Porter which was you know in some ways kind of a competitor to to farfetch you know did an incredible job and I had known him for years he was a board member for a short period before he became our CEO. And you know, he did such a great job throughout the merger and acquisition of of Crown and Caliber, which was the biggest thing we've ever done to this day. I mean the biggest thing we've ever done by by a country by really just extraordinary amount of work and very challenging. And, you know, the thing to remember there is Toby became our CEO. We merged with Crown and Caliber and went through that integration in a period where COVID-19 was very much raging to the point where like we didn't even have a vaccination on the horizon, right? I mean, like, you know, when when he joined, this was 20 early, you know, 20, 20 years. So and you know, vaccines didn't really roll out to about a year ago, right now. And so, you know, we had this idea that having a CEO based in Europe made a lot of sense for sure. And I think to some degree it did. And I think ultimately what we agreed upon mutually, and this is as much him as it was us, was that having somebody that is capable of being in the New York office, which is where Jeff and I are today, and certainly in the Atlanta office, was just really important because this this business is strange and this is a strange industry, as as we all know. And a lot of it really comes down to personal relationships. And Toby did so much for this business. And I think, you know i want to give him an incredible amount of credit for for all that he did but it just came down after about a year plus that did we both kind of agree that like hey this just was was really difficult because we felt we kind of needed somebody in in the us and he frankly had you know just wasn't able to do that and which I completely understand. I mean, we didn't even ask him to do that because we knew it wasn't even on the table, and that was clear from the beginning. You know, so so Toby is still very much involved with the company and advisor to the company. And so then, you know, when we went out to to look for for for his replacement as as CEO, we wanted somebody that that really valued people above all else. And I think you know that's the thing that that those on the outside may or may not know is that like Odinky was not a brand kind of born in the boardroom. It was born out of my love for watches. And the people that I hired in the early days, many of which are still here, some of which are not, are were really very close to me in very like personal ways. And I knew everybody's uh spouses, I knew their children's name, I knew their dog's name. We would hang out on the weekends. I mean, it was really a real kind of family environment, and I really wanted to ensure that we had uh a new CEO that you know we we didn't need to go maybe that far with a larger company of almost 200 people, but we wanted somebody that really understood how important personal relationships can mean and understand that this company is not like a Fortune 500 company in any way, really. You know, I think we're very efficient, I think we do things very well, but we wanted something, somebody that that really understood how important the the human dynamic was in this. And Jeff is that in spades for sure. But I I think also somebody that really understands the structure of a growing business. And I think Hudinki two years ago or 10 years ago, you know, was a really different place. And what I mean by that is like it could be run by kind of like touch and feel and intuition, which is exactly how it was run. I mean, I joke always that like there wasn't business plan back then. Th'eres not one now. Just kidding, there is one now. Uh that's for my investors out there. But you know, we we wanted something that that we wanted somebody that that really could uh I don't want to say professionalize the business because I think that that doesn't do what we had before uh enough service, but really uh you know figure out a way to take it to the next level, but still make it feel good. And the feel good for me is the most important because this is my baby. And like I want everyone to be happy in their jobs. I want James U behind that microphone to feel good about what you're doing. I don't want you to be strong armed, for example, to interview the CEO and the founder. Like that would suck for you, I'm sure. But you know, I wanted, we wanted to find somebody that that really understood how important the humanity of this this company was. And again, Jeff, Jeff has that in spades, as well as the ability to kind of really run a top tier organization. The the left side, right side brain person doesn't exist often, but but Jeff is is
James Stacey certainly one of it. Fantastic. You know, you uh both mentioned in in sort of different ways and and even previously in this conversation that you know this is kind of a strange, complex, growing company that now has multiple facets, different locations for different business interests and and that sort of thing with all of these moving parts. And and this is something that I maybe I'm more curious about than maybe the audience would be, but how do you tell if you're succeeding? Like for me, like I I I I run single things. If my article does okay and the comments aren't terrible. That's it, just probably not a bad day, right? But it's but it's more than that now.
Ben Clymer Yeah, I'll I'll go first because my answer will be probably less interesting and certainly less scientific. But like for me, it's like, do I feel good? You know, and it's like in some ways, like, you know, my feeling about the company is a barometer for for how the company is doing. And that, you know, like I, you know, there are people here that have been here for for five, six, seven years. If they, you know, when I catch up with them over coffee over Zoom coffee, like if they're happy, that makes me feel good. You know, and then when I go to a the event like I went to last Thursday, if the if the watch nerds come up to me and say, Oh, I love that story that James did, or that three on three was so cool with Nora, blah blah blah, like that's how I know that we're doing the right things. And then of course if we're selling stuff, et cetera but if things feel good between my thumb and forefinger then then I think the company's doing well. I I I mean
Jeff Fowler I completely agree with what Ben has said and and I think the way he described it it's it's sort of like of the anecdotal nature to know if the business is doing well, right? If it's if people who are part of our broader community or even people who are part of the company are feeling good about what we're doing. And I think like that anecdotal thing is just uh one way to measure something that can be measured in a variety of ways. But I would always measure whether we're being successful kind of with a science and an art approach. So the science being like the numbers and fundamentally when people are wanting to be a part of something we're doing and whether that's as readers, as community members, as people who have insured a watch with us and we see the value of watches, you know, under under some level of I think insurance coverage growing, we continue to sell more, so we have more customers. As all those things continue to grow, it just means that you know we're doing more right than wrong, which is a good thing on balance, and people want to be a part of it. But I looked then internally and yeah, look at things like you know what our employees saying about the experience here. We we we we do a quarterly survey of our employee population just to kind of keep the pulse of how they're feeling, how they're doing, and you know, in terms of how motivated our how engaged they are, how connected they feel to what the company's working on, how likely they would be to see themselves in the company in the next sort of few years. And if those things continue to move in the right direction, the right trends are there, uh, that's all good. And and and then there's the anecdotal piece, like Ben has said, it's like, you know, you can tell if someone's uh eyes are shining right or if they're a little like dead behind the eyes as well. I look for that kind of stuff honestly. I it it sounds corny, but I just look for it. I look for it in a meeting. I look for it in uh a lunch conversation. I'm having lunch with one of our employees today uh who who works one four up from us on our vintage team and you know I'll look for that that spark looked for it when I met people in Geneva I looked for it the first time met everyone is you know what is there a spark there or is it just somebody who's kind of going through the motions a little bit like you know, kind of on autopilot. And I think that's for me a little bit of the art is that sort of like shining eyes, that sense of a far a fire within them that sort of motivates them. And that motivation can be sourced anywhere. It could be personal to them. It could be professional ambition. I guess like the other thing is, you know, how how will we know if we're successful? I I truly think that in the modern day uh in which we live. I think companies have to stand for a something, something bigger than themselves. They can't just sort of say we're gonna do this thing, this functional thing. And that that thing that we stand for, I think, has to connect to all the stakeholders we serve, our employees, our customers, our partners, our investors, and then our community, the communities we live in, the communities in which we're a part of. So sort of want to think of, you know, if we're leaving those communities better places somehow, you know, not just one way, but in a variety of ways, we've done our jobs well. And again, I think, you know, I don't want to do a total watch this space, but I think as people observe the growth of hooding community, the continued impact that we will have across this niche industry, but more broadly across in the communities we serve, uh they'll they'll agree, hopefully we've been successful in that. Again, we're right then won't we
James Stacey won't always get it right. That's something I can promise you. For sure, for sure. Uh you know, and I'm I'm also curious, um Jeff, in in your mind, what of your experience at Farfetch and and certainly the watch brands before that, but maybe more specifically Farfetch because it combines sort of luxury with specifically selling to an audience. How do you see that experience translating for Hodinki as as the company continues to grow? That's a great question
Jeff Fowler . You know, I think it's important to remember. So far fetch uh is is a is an e-commerce business, so didn't keep it's e-commerce business. Like we're still talking about a relatively tiny amount of time that these types of businesses have been around. And yet like it's around 30 years, let's call it, give or take. I think the first like dot-com, you know, department stores were some of the early adopters of digital was around 30 years ago, a little bit less actually. Let's say around 1994 was the launch of some of the bigger department store websites. And retailers were quicker to accept brands have been slowish to accept that digital universes were relevant to them. And I think you've seen that even within the luxury, the broader luxury industry, certain categories have been even more slow to accept so one of the things i i i loved about the time that i was at farfetch and it was me playing a certain role in that but also observing the impact that others of of course the CEO and founder Josanne Neves but others in the company were having were they were to put it um metaphorically they were kind of like leading certain brands and partners into this future by the hand in the way that you would follow someone who offered you their hand if you trusted them and if you believe them to be you know trustworthy like in terms of they they knew where they were going they could help to guide you so it's a bit of a crazy metaphor but um farfetch really successful and i think if you go back to like say 2017 they announced a partnership with chanel chanel is a company that doesn't even sell things online at all full stop they don't sell via e-commerce and this partnership was announced as a strategic partnership around innovation Chanel was taking a small stake in Farfetch and they didn't say what they were going to build. In fact, they didn't know. They said we don't know what we're going to build, but we're going to innovate together. And then you look a couple of years later, um, Farfrench at that point had become a public company, they were developing uh technology solutions that could be used in Chanel stores to be able to enhance and empower customer experiences, you know, between the sales advisor and the customer and kind of making those experiences richer and uh more effective, more efficient, and more meaningful in some way. And that's just in a microcosm, like an impact that Farfetch was able to have on an incredibly rich, you know, historic brand that again doesn't necessarily strike you as the most innovative from a digital standpoint. Like then again, not even some products online. That's a choice. It's not that they can't. And I think Hodinki can kind of have similar example on the watch industry. You know, this this company was founded by Ben as a digitally native company, uh only Ben online pretty much from the beginning, obviously you know, having um impacts and kind of experiences offline. But um it's sort of that the the roots of being online and being a company, excuse younger company that is more likely to bring new people into the world of watches rather than speak to existing ones who felt like they were being catered to all along, that might just try to do something a little bit different just to test it and see if that might again encourage a few more people to take note of what beautiful, incredible, innovative things are already going on within the world of watches, but just open that aperture a little wider and bring a few more people in. And again, I think I was lucky enough to be a part of a company that was doing it. By the way, like it's a bit of a theme to that, because even at Tesla, I felt like I was, you know, exposed to that as well. Like helping people to see the way that they commute to work or the way they ferry their kids around could be a little different, could be done a little bit better just if you sort of open your mind to it. And I think I think you can have that experience on the watch industry. And that's that's actually quite a big vision, if you think about it, to say that we're like, I want to be honest, we know like Hodinki's brand and impact in the industry is much larger than the company is, right? I'm not going to divulge specific numbers, but in terms of headcount or revenues, you know, it's it's it's it's a company that still has lots of upside room to grow, but I think it's its impact that it will have in the industry that I would be most excited about. And again, thankfully I've had the chance to work with a couple of other companies that have done that, but helped to to shepher
James Stacey d an entire industry in a way into the future in some ways There's a lot to unpack there. And uh and I have you guys for a few more minutes. I want to make sure I I have a uh years ago I had a dinner with a handful of people, but uh the gentleman to my left uh at the time was running a very famous uh luxury company. I I don't know if he would appreciate me saying specifically who he is, but he gave me an interesting sort of thing that I've thought about for years. He learned a little about me, where I grew up, that sort of thing. And he said it's interesting because I don't think you'll ever understand luxury. At some level you have to be almost born into it or at least raised in it. And I don't know if that's the case, but I would love I've asked so many people this in the last couple of years. It's a fascinating question for me. What does luxury mean to you? And and then I'll add a another little spin because I think it's crucial to Hodinki's growth. Can luxury be made to be quite inclusive? Yeah. I mean I
Ben Clymer I oh I I mean I'd love to know who that was. We'll talk about that afterwards because he deserves the slap across the face. Uh but you know, it it's one of those like luxury is different things to different people. Like luxury, you know, I think by definition is is anything you don't need. And to be clear, nobody needs what we sell. And we're the first people to and so for for me, like my my you know bank climbers version of luxury is not about how much something costs it's not about having something that other people don't it's about kind of doing something you know the the air quotes right way and what I mean by that is usually a traditional way you know, a, handmade watch, uh uh, you know, a nice sweater, uh a manual uh transmission car, something that you know gives you a sense of enjoyment that doesn't exist in kind of like the the bare bones version of uh of of that item. So for for me, I think, you know, luxury can't can't be taught, I suppose, but like our version of luxury, and I I hate that word in general, um, is is is really different than, you know, our friends at the Rob Report or GQ or Esquire or or Vogue anything like that. Like, you know, I don't view us as a luxury watch publication or purveyor. I view us as a platform for enthusiasm, you know, for people that are enthusiastic about something. And there are other platforms in other categories, you know, there's the petreliciouses and the bring of trailers and cars and the style forms in men's clothing, et cetera. But I think all hodinky is is a celebration of something that you don't need. And it should be fun and it should be playful and it it sho shoulduld be be, welcoming. And I think, you know, I talked about this on our friend Phil Toledano's podcast the other day. Like the idea that like, you know, there's this old guard that like doesn't welcome the hodinkies of the world, and I'm not saying us, but you know, other companies like us, because they want to gatekeep watches just for them, is is crazy. Like who wouldn't want something you care about to succeed and continue to thrive and have new people join? And so for for me, it really is about just ensuring that we provide a service to people, whether it is the content that you're creating right now with us, James, or it is the watches that our commercial side sells or the insurance program that we offer, that just makes their life a little bit more fun, a little bit more enjoyable. And the great barometer for me is I think back to the days when I used to work in finance and consulting. And had I not made the jump from that into this, what would I want? You know, I want to build the site that the alternate version of Ben would love. And if I were still sitting in that cubicle somewhere in Mihawk in New Jersey. Like I want I want Hodinki to do this. I want to see the talking watches with the Z on sorry. I want to see Adam Scott talking about golf or whatever. Like I want to have fun with stuff. And I think again, like we're the first people to admit that there are no doctors prescribing you to buy watches. Like this has to be fun. And I think you know, the traditional luxury players, of which we all know know well, they take themselves so seriously. It's just like, dude, like nobody needs a ten thousand dollar watch, nobody needs a hundred thousand dollar car or a thousand dollar pair of shoes, like this has to be fun. If it's not fun, you're not doing it right. And so that and we we're not talking about this, but like I I could easily go on a rant about like how ridiculous it is like you can't buy the watch that you want right now. And like the tech AP, I understand those are always like high luxury, like mega rich guy stuff. But like an omega C Master or Rolex America, like you should be able to buy that anytime you want. I feel so. Yeah, I think you know, for us, you know, luxury is not a word that I think of often, but luxury to me is just having stuff that you don't need, which is hoodinky at its core
Jeff Fowler . I I'll piggyback and then say that I agree with everything Ben said. I'll second what he said about you know luxury defined as he defined it i think that's the right way to think about it it's really what you don't need but you want you know you still want it loved his points around quality we had the good fortune in geneva of meeting um with Jean-Claude Bivert. And as I think it's well known, he's launching a new watch brand and he talked about the level of quality that he's going to put into the brand and you know the fact that parts that you'll never see that really only the watchmaker will see will have to be exquisitely produced and made, you know, polishing the screws in such a way that you know if it if it's below the absolute best quality, it could be it won't be good enough. And I think that there's an element in that and that, you know, craftsmanship, quality, care, passion that goes into it, that that's sort of intrinsic to the luxury industry. But I'd rather say one thing about the piece that you mentioned around inclusivity versus exclusivity. It's actually a little bit, it's been a bit of time now that I think the industry had this awakening that, you know, continuing to just be exclusionary was to the detriment of the industry. And there is a balance to be had between, you know, welcoming people in and letting them see that they can have a role to play in the industry and inviting them in, in fact, and excluding them, or sort of like helping them to feel that it's not for them. And that comment we made, James like also made my blind boil a little bit because I just don't like that attitude. And I'll say something a little bit provocative here, which is I think the watch industry among the various categories in luxury, traditional luxury, probably still among the furthest behind in understanding the power of being truly inclusive and really giving the fans of your brand a role to play or welcoming them to help create their own roles for that. And obviously, access will always be a little limited by things like price point or quantity that can be bit manufactured at a given time frame, you know, to the level of quality you demand. But then not finding a way to engage those people, I think, is short-sighted and actually potentially detrimental to the long-term perception of these industries. You know, there's a degree to which like I think as generations come around, you know, they they may not have the tolerance for being told you're not a part of this. You're not welcome in the tent. So I think again, it's like the industry as a whole, I think can be a heck of a lot in more inclusive than it is today in terms of just like giving people a sense that they have a role to play. And again, I'm hopeful that Hodinki can can continue the work it's done since the founding of helping people feel more like they're a part of it. And like that's actually a big de
James Stacey al. You know, it it really makes a difference. Yeah. Yeah. I mean and from my from my perspective, fun and enthusiasm, both of which are technically free, if if done correctly and and should be available to anyone. And I I think both fun and enthusiasm having the time to uh find the things that that are fun in your life and follow your enthusiasm is a very luxurious uh sort of proposition, especially if you get to do it so long that you get to the deep end of the pool. Uh then it gets really fun, really impressive. And you can do that in anything. It doesn't have to be just watches, I think like like Ben's Ben's point. You know, I I've only got a couple more minutes with you guys. I think we could definitely do another one of these, so just let me know when you're free. But I I'm I'm kinda fascinated by one more thing. You know, we saw a huge spike in n brand new readers during Watches and Wonders. And sometimes in my mind, I think I'm always talking to the same hundred people that have read the last stuff or heard the last 10 podcasts or whatever. And the truth is the numbers would suggest otherwise, right? And I would love to know in your guys' mind, what is the ideal experience for somebody to coming to Hodinky for the first time or maybe listening to the podcast for the first time
Jeff Fowler ? Can I interject just for a second before I answer your question? Beyond the fact that you're not talking to the same person over and over, which I'm convinced you're not Nick Marino, frequent contributor to you know the site and to put in the radio frequent um uh guests of yours James um in our head of content shared with me a really incredible statistic which um you know is sort of looking at the period of time covered by the lockdown of COVID, you know, all of us, yourself, James, Ben, myself, we all got two years older, but Hodinki's readership and Hodinki's audiences got two years younger, which I think, you know, proves the point. You're clearly not talking to the same people because it both got larger. The the the the base of of people listening or tuning in or reading a story got bigger, but it also got younger. And actually I think that's a fantastic positive sign. Call it green shoots, you know, of like growth to come. Um, so but what would a newcomer, how would they best experience it again? I love Ben's answer on this, but I would actually say um in the same way that like some of the best ways to explore a city is to just arrive and show up and explore and wander around and get a little lost, you know. Like think of the first times I experienced Paris. I was just like wandering around, no map, no GPS on my phone, just like figuring out what was around each corner and and and and just diving into it allowing myself that luxury to our point because I don't need to but um have the chance to just explore but it part of the reason I say that is like you know as I did this recently I can speak for experience in december and january i was fascinated by the like the breadth and depth of the world that haniki has has kind of created in terms of its video content it's it's long form written content it's like very digestible short form content, social media. I think it's kind of there. It's there for the taking. It's there for everyone. We keep creating it interestingly. And uh interesting content comes out every single day. So there's never a shortage of it. But I
Ben Clymer I would sort of just say dive in, get lost. Yeah, I'm so similarly. I think we have been purposeful in creating so many different avenues to enter this world. I mean, it it's kind of remarkable. You know, I know the kid, I meet the kid every day on the street that says, Hey, like I met you through the John Mayer talking watching video, number one, or number two. Number two is actually, I think, even more viewed than number one now. I'm not kidding. I had I had breakfast with a guy last week who is fabulously wealthy that only reads Hodinky magazine, the physical magazine, which means he's only read Hodinky nine times. You know, we've only got to be like read them multiple times. He's read it like 900 times. Yeah, exactly. But like he does, he he told me point blank. He's like, I don't shop with you, I don't use your app, I don't go on the web, I read your magazine, usually on my plane. Like no, no joke. And uh, and so there's that. And then like, you know, realistically, the the mass of people is so it's very much in between those two, you know. And I think for for us, like we've been, as I said, been really purposeful in creating so many different roads into the world that is so dinky that we want it to be a little bit of everything to everyone in this space. We know people that insure crazy watches with us that have never bought anything from us. And then we know other people that buy a watch from us every single week that have never insured anything with us. People that consume our content daily, people that have you know, and and vice versa. Like we we wanna create an entire ecosystem of of a hooding experience. And I think that that's you know, obviously, what we're working on here. We think we've done a good job on it. So that there's no like one path that is preferred over another. Uh, I mean, I think we've got some some pro folks on the product team that might say, well, there is a preferred path and we're working on that. But I think from from my vantage point, like as long as people are having fun with it and enjoying it and like respect all the work that goes into it, I'm good with it. You know, and again, whether they're buying a hundred dollar strap from us or they spend a million dollars a year with us, it doesn't really matter. Or they spend nothing with us. Like as long as they become fans of what we do and appreciate all the work that people like you, James and you Jeff do for for us, like I that that's all I care about. And and similarly, I want them to respect um how much we care about that. And I think that sometimes is is lost or I think sometimes like it's it's not I would say it's not transmitted at the right pitch the volume sometimes to be sometimes tends to be a little bit too loud and the pitch isn't exactly right but you know as long as people understand how much care we put into everything, uh I'm I'm happy with it. Fantasti
James Stacey c. Well look guys, I don't want to take up any more of your time. This was great. I I we got to maybe half of what I put in the notes. Uh so we've certainly got uh got more if we want to get to it. We can get deeper into watches. Jeff, I'm I'm speaking a little bit out of turn here and I'm what, 90 days later, whatever, but welcome, of course, and thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you, James. An absolute treat. And uh Ben, I love doing a an episode with you uh whenever possible. So uh really thank you so much for coming on and uh spending a bit of your Monday morning with us. James, thanks to you. Thanks
Jeff Fowler for the passion and the hard work you put in. So honestly, I'm telling you that as a person who really, really enjoyed getting to know you through the podcast. And also thanks, thanks to the listeners, the ones who tune in. Absolutely. Every time you put out a new episode, and we appreciate the time you guys are investing in this as well. And um, you know, I'm I'm really I'm really excited to be a part of it. So thanks, James. Thank you b
James Stacey oth. And uh that that's excellent. And hey, audience, you know what I always say, if you're enjoying the show, all I would ask is you send a link to a buddy, uh, someone you know that enjoys a podcast, might want to get on the inside of these fun sort of conversations. It's a mix of stuff like this. And uh, you know, me and Cole and Logan and Danny and Nora and and the whole crew just kind of chit-chatting about random watches and and stuff that we're kind of digging and stuff we can't get out of our brain. So uh send it to a friend if you like. Um otherwise hey we'll chat to you in about a week's time and thank you so much for listening.