Skip to content

Open Or Closed - A Caseback Conundrum

Published on Mon, 21 Mar 2022 12:00:00 +0000

Open or closed – which is best and why?

Synopsis

In this episode of The Grey NATO podcast, host James Stacy moderates a debate between Hodinkee writers Jack Forster and Danny Milton about watch case backs - specifically whether display case backs are worthwhile on entry-level and mid-range mechanical watches. The discussion stems from their recent "Point/Counterpoint" articles on Hodinkee.

Jack argues in favor of display case backs even on affordable watches like the Seiko 5, suggesting that seeing the movement adds to the enjoyment and appreciation of mechanical watches as machines, regardless of finishing quality. He contends that for many people, especially those new to mechanical watches, being able to observe the movement through a clear case back is an exciting and engaging part of the ownership experience. Danny takes the opposing view, arguing that display case backs should be reserved for watches with movements worthy of display - those with high-end finishing and decorative details. He draws an analogy to cars, suggesting that just as economy cars don't have glass engine covers, entry-level watches don't need exhibition case backs when the movements aren't particularly attractive or finished.

The conversation touches on various aspects including the historical context of closed case backs on iconic watches like Rolex, the practical considerations of engraving options, brand identity, and personal preferences. Both acknowledge that their positions are highly subjective and tied to their individual experiences entering watch enthusiasm. The episode concludes with the hosts agreeing that while both approaches have merit, exhibition case backs with obscuring designs or text represent the worst of both worlds. They announce that regular episodes will pause as the team travels to Geneva for watch shows, with special coverage planned from the event.

Transcript

Speaker
James Stacy Hey, it's me, James Stacy, and this week we've got a case back grudge match following a recent set of point counterpoint stories posted to Hodinky. Joining me are the arguing authors of both their own discontent and the stories at hand, Jack and Danny. It's a case-backed conundrum, so let's peer through the looking glass in the hopes of closing this case once and for all. Jack, Danny, welcome to the show. How are we doing? Closing the case. Nice. That was nice, James. Nice. Yeah, if if you actually listen to those sentences, they're complete gibberish, but I had fun writing them, so
Danny Milton you guys good? I guess so. Never been better. Still speaking to each other? Jack and I are here together, so I guess that means we're good. That's great. I feel like Danny and I have done a disproportionate number of point counterpoints. I still have a job. I tend to pick the fights with people who might be able to fire me. Okay. Uh and so I don't know why I keep doing that, but you know that ain't me, brother. I'm an independent contractor. You're 1099, yeah? Collect that cash
James Stacy , no taxes. All the way, baby. The only thing I can fire both of you from is this show, and I need both of you to have this episode. So I think we should dig into some uh case back discussions. This is an interesting one because you know, in the past we've done these where I felt like I could kind of pick a side whether it was the integrated bracelet thing, like I kind of had an idea of where I landed on this. I don't really have a great concept of how I feel about case backs like as a rule. And and I think it's kind of a multi-level thing. Jack, how about we start with with your argument, which I think is the more uh accepting perspective of case backs, cor
Jack Forster rect? I mean when it comes to point counterpoints, I mean I I never met a narrow, prescriptive, dogmatic perspective that I didn't like. But but in in this case it's a little bit different. I mean, you know, to me uh well, I mean like like most arguments that seem to be rational, to me it goes back to something that's completely irrational, which is uh my first mechanical watch, which I purchased as an adult, was a Seiko five and it had a clear case pack. And um, you know, that that uh seven S twenty six movement in there is um you know it's about as exciting to look at as a float carburetor. It's like a machine that uh you know has a job to do and and I I don't know, maybe some people get excited by looking at float carburetors and James, you might you might know some of those people. Aaron Powell You know, it's uh we don't encounter machines all that much in daily life anymore. I mean we account we encounter electronics a lot. But part of the excitement, you know, for me for having uh having that watch was uh actually just being able to see the mechanism do its thing and uh you know for all that it's a mass produced movement that exists and it's probably tens of millions at this point. I had a ton of fun looking at it. And that was part of the larger experience of uh getting a Seiko V was not a difficult thing to do from an economic standpoint at all. But it was, you know, sort of like a real watch from a real brand with a real history and seeing the movement was part of the you know, it was
James Stacy cool. It was part of the fun. Yeah, I could see that. I like I I get it. I get it as kind of an interesting sort of experience in early watch enthusiasm is is to get that first watch that has the case back. You can see the movement. You can kind of give it a little shake, especially if it's a you know shake and bake Seiko and and see the the rotor spin like mad and you can watch the balance and such and uh so I I definitely understand that. And Danny, you took the position that you should really only have a display case back if you have something worthy of displaying. Yeah, and it's it's
Danny Milton twofold. I mean these are obviously extremely uh like personal takes to both of us. I mean we're we're arguing on our own behalf, not on you know for the sake of others. So for me it boiled down to my personal taste in watches and and how I sort of grew up loving them. And when it comes to an automatic watch, especially one that I won't call it entry level or lower price, but where a lot of us enter into our love of watches, the idea of an automatic watch is with a rotor spinning and the perpetual movement of your own wrist, the watch continues to wind and continues to work. You don't have to think about it, kind of plays into the whole notion of you're not thinking about the movement, you're just thinking about the wearability of the watch. And I've always been more of a dial side purist. And I think that a lot of the watches at that level, and I'll include Rolex in that distinction because these are the watches that I kind of grew up loving, and they're the ones that traditionally have closed case backs on them. It's when you get higher up into watch knowledge and more of the intricacies of how watches are made and sort of the higher end watch finishing and movement finishing that you buy a watch for the whole package. You're spending upwards of, in some cases fifteen, twenty thousand, a hundred thousand, five hundred thousand, a million dollars maybe for a watch. And and you're doing it because you want everything and you want to look at everything and you appreciate everything. And in most cases, my favorite types of exhibition casebacks are manual winding exhibition case back movements because you don't have a rotor in the way of of looking at just how crazy those components are working together. So my uh my argument wasn't to talk down on some of the less than a thousand dollar movements, more so that when those are being exhibited, I don't think that there's as much attention being paid to showing them off as opposed to just the sheer fact that you can put glass on the back and show them off. Nothing's being done to them at a certain level. And I think that unless you're going to, you know, there's a reason why there's not a glass top on the hood of your car on your Honda Civic. You know, I mean there's something
James Stacy to be said about that. I'm trying to think of a car that has a glass window. Oh, uh Corvette ZR1. C6 Corvette Z R1 has a has a plexi window that you can see the um engine cover. It just says C R1 or Corvette or something like that on it. Aren't there a ton of uh mid-engine sports cars where you can see the engine? Uh quite a lot of them, yeah. You know, Lamborghinis, Ferraris, the new MC twenty, the Mas
Danny Milton erati, you can see its engine cover. Right, but but but but but not not not the Toyota Corolla's, not the you know and w which I'm again I'm not talking down in a Toyota Corolla, we're talking about the most popular cars out there and cars that'll last the drivers ten to fifteen years easy. It's just there's a reason. And I think it I think you can translate that into into watches
Jack Forster to some degree. Aaron Powell So Danny, let's uh let's see now. Let's let's look at this analogy a little bit. I mean, um arg argument from analogy is an interesting thing because a lot of the time there's a a kernel of truth to it and there's something very appealing about argument from analogy. But because they are arguments from analogy, they tend to reach a point where they start to sort of break down. So is a um is a mass-produced car equivalent in terms of the appeal that it has is it equivalent to a mass-produced mechanical watch at this particular point in the history of mechanical horology? I would say I would say no.
Danny Milton I I guess that that's true. I think if if you're talking about appeal, and and my my point was not the appeal. I think there's a de definite difference in appeal of um a mechanical watch. If we're going to compare a Seiko 5 to a Honda, a Toyota, you need a Toyota or a Honda. It's an it's a necessity today for a lot of people at a very accessible price point, which you don't need a Seiko 5 anymore, but you would want a Seiko five if you're interested at an entry point to something that is not necessary. So my point wasn't to equate them top to bottom, more so to take the air insides and see whether or not somebody would want to show them off in a in a vacuum. My my analogy was a vacuum analogy, if you will
Jack Forster . It's interesting because uh you know, cars are for lots of people a necessity, uh, depending on the quality and presence or absence of things like public transportation or how close you, you know, are in terms of walking distance to your place of work and where you shop. Um I've been living in New York since nineteen eighty four and I've never owned a car j because I don't have trouble even imagining you driving a car, Jack. I just I just imagine you being driven. That's what I assume. The only time I've driven uh any car in the last twenty years, it's it it's actually it's very weird. It's like it's usually a high performance sports car and it's usually on a track and I'm like, well, I have a driver's license. I can drive technically, but I haven't been on the road in like twenty years, and they're like, Oh, here's the keys to the Jaguar, try not to like, you know, end up in the trees and have a good time But y but you know, it's uh uh you know, to just to milk the analogy a little bit more. I mean, the thing about a a a car is that for a lot of people I mean, of course there are car connoisseurs and uh you know, we we know lots of them uh in the company and outside the company. But uh even a SACO five is not an object of necessity anymore unless you live in a part of the world where it's virtually impossible to get a battery change, in which case you know, having a watch that will run for twenty years without uh human intervention is probably a great thing. They're actually they they are objects of codesseurship and people who even at you know seventy five bucks or a hundred bucks or whatever it costs um you know to buy one on Amazon these days. And uh people aren't buying them for the same reason that they would buy a um you know a Prius or a Toyota Corolla or what have you. They're buying them because they are mechanical. And anything that increases their enjoyment of the machineness of uh a timekeeping machine on the wrist, I think is probably value added. And I think that it's interesting, Daddy, that for you, you know, like when you were sort of coming up as a watch enthusiast and a watch collector, a quote unquote real watch was one that had a closed case back
Danny Milton . All I can equate that to is what I what I was grown accustomed to. And I think I I somehow was privy to the idea that the inclusion of a see-through case back was sort of a um a pseudo modern invention something of a way to your point to increase interest to showcase the mechanics. I remember distinctly um seeing someone's show part uh Mila Miglia watch at one point, which I think the one that I saw was from early two thousand. And knowing immediately, oh, this is this is a modern watch because it has this exhibition case back. And I and I it excited me. I thought it was a very cool thing. I won't lie to you. However, it didn't do as much for me as the closed case back watches that I liked. I just found I I loved the simplicity of of and the utilitarian aspect of those th
Jack Forster ings. Yeah, I mean I think that's probably a perspective a lot of people can relate to. But that do I mean that doesn't necessarily mean that an entry level watch, then entry level automatic in all cases should not have a display back. I think that it's a it's a sort of particular take on what makes a watch feel like the dream that we have of what a watch is uh,, you know, an everyday wear watch is that it's it's daily companion, it's reliable, it keeps accurate time. Maybe eight years can go by before you think of you know, six, seven, eight years can go by before you have to think of having it serviced. Um and it's just something that you don't have to whose um you know qualities as a machine you don't necessarily have to consider. I think the arguments for a open case back and the arguments for a closed case back are both like basically different kinds of unrealistic fetishism anyway. So it's ba you know, it's like you're you're sort of arguing, you know, I mean to to extend the analogy into a realm which might make some of our listeners uncomfortable. It's kind of like arguing which is better, like you know, um uh latex or leather
Danny Milton . But that's that's right though. I mean that's what I was trying to say from the jump. That we're we're not arguing to a fact, we're arguing to to an opinion. And I think that's important. And and you'll and the comments are reflective of that. Jack, I've been I've seen how often you're wrong and how often I'm wrong. And the two meet somewhere in the middle, and we can't both be w
Jack Forster rong. So we both must be right. I think more people agree with me than agree with you actually. I'd have to go back and check, but I feel I feel secure in the knowledge of my um intellectual and moral superiority, mostly moral superi
James Stacy ority. I w I do wonder how much of this comes from this sort of it's not really leadership, but like the Rolex leadership, the way that Rolex kind of established themselves and the the format in which they do things and they don't derivate when it comes to things like case backs. And we see it in Tudor as well. And and I would say they take it even a step further, right? Because there's some very famous sports watches, even ones that people kind of would like to see the movement that for a long time you you couldn't. You know, I when I when I was first getting into um watches, there were lots of guys buying aftermarket case backs for their speed masters. Oh yeah. Right? And that was a thing that obviously now now you can you can see that movement and and uh Omega has kind of made the shift almost entirely to showing you the movements, especially since they've gone to the eight thousand series, the coaxial stuff
Jack Forster yeah. When did you do do either of you guys remember when a sapphire case pack became like a standard option on Speedmasters? It was like the late 1990s, wasn't it? I think it's I think it's been a wh
James Stacy ile, but but that that that I'm not so sure. 'Cause one point had a hesalate front and a sapphire back at one point. Yeah, I think even when I when I was seeing people buy the you know, these aftermarket ones and fit them on Watch You Seek or whatever ten, twelve years ago. I think the option was already out there. It was for people who had bought when it was closed case back only and and were ch had changed their mind because maybe Omega was started showing pictures of the case back with a display case back. I I think as a as like an a unit of watch enthusiasm, it it's always fascinating. But I also find that like just way that Rolex kind of established one way of doing it and you can get engravings and I think we can get into the engraving discussion 'cause that that definitely comes up. It's not so much that people don't want to be able to see the movement. They also just want some space to make the watch their own. And and on a new speedy with a closed case back, there's nowhere to engrave anything, right? Yeah. I mean the truth is that
Jack Forster um I I I mean I think that the argument that um uh for a closed case back which you know centers on having the option to engrave I mean that's that's an argument you know I mean there's there's there's no argument with that. I mean if you want if you want to have an engraved case back, you need a solid case back. I mean, unless you want to, I don't know. Can you I I guess you can etch sapphire even in an aftermarket setting, and probably there's somebody out there who's figured out how to do it. But if you've chosen a watch with an open case back, you probably don't want any you know, you probably don't want any uh crud on the window so to speak, right? I mean you want to
James Stacy Yeah I'm I'm I I I find that very tiresome where where you have a brand that will put the display case back on and then they cover it with some sort of a design and you're like well we're now doing everything and get You're like, oh, thank you for the worst of both possible worlds. Yes, I can't really see the movement and you know this thing you have on the back is kind of obscured by the fact that it's cut into glass. I can't see the movement, and you've succeeded in making uh Yeah and then and then on the on the c sort of opposite end of the spectrum in my mind from that option, you have you know watches with uh the hunter case backs where you can you can have uh a closed case back, but then you can pop it open like Day Batoon has done this even just recently. Obviously it's been on tons of vintage watches. And then you have uh you even have options like watches where you would really expect them to have gone the uh display case back row but like the early long oh ones were closed case back and for me that's kind of like weirdly cool because you know you can find a picture of that movement if you want have your watchmaker take the case back off and get a couple nice photos for your phone. But with the the c casease back back, close kind of makes it this oddity because you expect this incredible finishing and a complicated movement and a beautiful thing to look at when you're when you have a lung. And if you've ever, you know, been been in a scenario where there's a table with a few longas and you pick up a longa one and you turn it over expecting to see that movement and it's this closed case back. It's it's kind of w weirdly exciting
Jack Forster as well. Yeah. I mean I think there's I think there is something. Um you know the this this is like another, you know, sort of segment of watch fetishism, like the idea of a watch with like a super high-end, beautifully finished movement that is sitting behind a uh closed case back and like, you know, the only people who know how beautiful it is are other connoisseurs, yourself, and whatever watchmaker happens to work on it. You know, you're sort of like I don't know, it's sort of like Dollam sitting by himself, you know, thousands of feet under the misty mountains, you know, going like, my precious, my precious, you know, like it's it's it's nice to have like it's nice to have sort of a special secret and it's a token in some people's minds, even today, it's a token of connoisseurship to have a watch with a high end movement that has uh a closed case back. And, you know, of course, for most of the history of high end watch making, you know, display backs did not exist, even on the most uh uh beautifully finished uh movements and the most uh um highly complic
James Stacy ated watches. Yeah it's it's an interesting thing with because there's not a rule, right? Like Saco will put a display case back on just about anything. I think maybe my first experience with a display case back was probably like an Invicta. Oh what? Before I got into watches and you know was just kind of digging around on poor man's watch form to try and learn the ropes and saw what was a popular thing ended up being, you know, like a sub clone sort of thing. And and I think that had to display case back in that movement literally looked like it it was unfinished essentially. It was all just one kind of lump of gray metal with a little spinny bit on it. And there's like a segment at the bottom end of the of the market where it's a lot of fun for someone getting into watches or getting new to watches, especially new to mechanical watches, to be able to see this stuff. And then there's mar there's this piece in the middle where you're like, well, why? Because we we have higher end movements, but they're still industrial finished. If you've ever seen a Rolex movement, you know, the take the case back off of yours. They're great movements and they're and they're really well made, and of course they perform beautifully, but they're not like beautiful movements. They're finished to a certain degree that fits the intent from Rolex that as as a watchmaker. But and then as soon as you get above that, once you get to a a different echelon, it becomes this de facto expectation. Yeah, I mean with Rolex movements, what
Jack Forster you're getting is you're you're getting probably well, I mean ar,guably the most technically advanced Swiss lever escapement automatic movements that anybody's making right now. Omega does great stuff technically, but they've you know leaned heavily into the coaxial. And they are unbelievably beautifully industrially finished. Like you look at a Rolex movement, you don't see, you know, you don't see like, you know, hand beveling and hand polishing of flanks and hand applications of coaches and never anything like that. But what you do see is, you know, absolute like micron exact precision in the uh you know the dimensions of the parts and you you they they just look un they look unbelievably clean and sturdy and uh you know you don't look at them and say to yourself, oh my gosh, what a beautiful exercise in uh you know, craft and history. But you know, you you do feel an immediate sense of confidence that you're looking at a piece of machinery that is meant to work day in and day out with absolutely no trouble whatsoever. And I mean, you know, are there people out there who would like to be able to see that? I'm sure there are. There must be a market for aftermarket like display case that
Danny Milton Rolex model. That must exist. I mean I agree with James to the point where the best way to explain to someone who might not be interested in watches if I'm trying to get them interested in watches is to pull out one of the watches I have with a display case back, turn it over and show it to them. In some cases, like a Miyoda movement, and you know, not to slight those movements, but it's like looking at just a bunch of metal put together with something spinning around in circles. And I don't know that that really communicates to somebody in an exciting way what watchmaking could be the same way if I turned the Speedmaster 3861 movement showed them that you can see with the finishing and everything what's happening there. There's contrast, there's color, it almost looks like what you would imagine being inside of a a large clock would look like in a clock tower or or something like basically your your your cartoon imagination of what watch making looks like is sort of exhibited in in sort of higher end manual winding movements, to be honest with you. Whereas I I don't know that I'm constantly having to turn the watch over, get the rotor out of the way, point out where we are, and and I think unless there's there's a degree of finishing there, it's really hard to to get someone excited about about what those tend to look like. Where I think to your point, Jack, unless you're coming into it with an interest in the in the mechanics yourself, it's a hard play, I think, to get someone into it with those as opposed to
James Stacy something a little bit more interesting. Yeah. I mean, do you think it's like the horological like like is is doing the case back thing kind of the horological equivalent of like, you know, pop in the hood at a car show. It's it's not always on a car where you want to see the engine, but maybe the person's done something to the engine. Maybe they've got some carbon fiber bits in there, they've got some dope headers or who who knows? Like a cool Actu
Jack Forster ally that's a really good analogy. I mean, because the truth is you're not even if you have a watch with a display back, you're not really aware of the display back ninety-nine percent of the time. It's just you know, just sitting on your wrist and it's something you can ignore. And um, you know, I mean if you if you really want to like lean into the car analogy, maybe the equivalent of not having a display back would be like the hood of your car is like it's it's held in place by some sort of fastening system which can only be opened up by a factory authorized mechanic
James Stacy . You can pop the hood on them and there's just kind of two fans and a plastic shroud. Like it looks kind of like the inside of a high-end gaming PC. Uh the engine's somewhere way down in there, and you could arguably get a better view of it from beneath. Uh but yeah, no, I I I I it's it's an interesting thing because then in my mind, if if there's something to show, it's really fun to be able to show it to someone. And otherwise at at the Seiko five level, at a Miyota level, it becomes a little bit more about what does it mean more directly to you? Because it's you're not gonna be able to flip that over and be like, look at the fine finishing and and appreciate these great details. Right. But like Jack said and like I said, like y you have that moment when you pull that thing out of the box. Yes. And it's your first mechanical and you can feel the rotor moving around in your hands and you turn it over and actually see it and you go like, Oh my goodness, there's the there's the thing. That's the thing. That's what I bought. Which is
Jack Forster a sweet moment. For people who don't have any you know, knowledge of or interest in watches, you know, per se. I mean, you know, the you you corny. You would definitely still be listening to this show. You like like no but you corner you you corner them at the pub and they're like uh you know, oh what are your hobbies? You start talking about watches and and they're you know, and and uh you start talking about mechanical watches and they're like, Well wait, I thought all I mean I thought watches were like had batteries and stuff. And then like you take off your Seiko five and you show them the rotor swing I mean I think that there's a non-zero chance that there might be a whoa, what the hell's going on there? You know, kind of question. I think that if you're really looking to um I mean, listen, if you really want to blow somebody away, there's nothing quite like a beautifully hand finished fifty to seventy-five thousand dollar precious metal cased traditionally constructed chronograph, right? I mean that's something that's gonna get you on every level. It's gonna get you on the you know i I mean if a person is susceptible to aesthetics, it's gonna get them, even if they're not interested in mechanics. If they're interested in mechanics, they're gonna love it because it's such an interesting looking machine from a machine standpoint. But it's really you know, it's it's sort of like the whole package. But like on a certain you know, it's kind of like the human brain, right? Like you start out with, you know, like you if you go in from the outside, you know, you you you peel back the skin and then you open up the skull, and then you go in a little further and there's the cerebral cortex and you peel off the cortex and then there's the, you know, there's the midbrain. And then underneath all that is the sort of like r you know reflexive hindbrain without which you know you're dead in the like literally dead in the water. Right. And you like you can actually get rid of almost all of the other stuff. And I mean all you'll be able to do is sort of like slump in your chair and um you know uh drool slightly and uh and write watch articles. But uh I'm laughing at my own joke, okay? But but but like but like on a certain basic like sort of like reptile brainstem level it's I think it's I still think it's kind of like cool to sort of you know see like like there's like a 7S26 and a Seiko 5 there's nothing like there's there's no there's no aesthetics in particular involved right there's no artistry involved there's no hand finishing involved. You can see like you, know, I mean, there are tooling marks left on um non-working surfaces because like why would you spend extra money, you know, finishing those surfaces? Because it's just gonna make the watch more expensive and that's not the market that you're after. But on a certain like reptilian brainstem level, it's kind of cool to see just like the watch as a machine reduced to its basics. I think that's right. It kind of strikes me as like
Danny Milton an enthusiast. Again, I want to go I I think to make another analogy, um guitar enthusiasts, generally speaking, will pop the back off of their fender stratocasters and leave them off because there are things you can do to the back of that guitar to help tune it up, make it, you know, sort of exactly the way you want it, but they'll leave them off. And you can get a little peek inside of the back of the guitar, which for certain guitar lovers is an interesting thing to do. I think for anybody who might be like moderately interested in what's happening inside of a really good electric guitar and what separates that guitar from let's say, you know, Fender's even lower end squire guitars or any any other kind of like low-end, non-handmade guitars, there's something to be said about that. Will that get you into that hobby? Quite possibly. Do you need to have some sort of interest to have wanted to see it in the first place? I think probably. I think that's where my argument stems from is that on a on a broad level, I think the people who argue in the comments section on Hodinki, either for me, against me, or for you or against you, are firmly in this universe, right? And I think there's a certain level of they've dug their heels in the sand on their own points, but they're all interested in watches to some degree.
Jack Forster point on Hodinki in an article that I argues for or argues against a closed case back. I mean, like chances are you do not represent a good like sample of the person naive to mechanical watchmaking, uh, by whose reaction you can gau
James Stacy ge the validity of an open or closed case back. Exactly. You know, Danny, to your point, back in high school I had an Ibanez Roadmaster 2, and uh it had a closed little panel on the back with just some cheap plastic. And in shop class, I cut one out of bright yellow, like translucent yellow acetate. There you go. There you go. And fitted that. So if you're, you know, busting out a big solo behind your head, which I of course wouldn't do. Um but it was kind of cool if you took it out when you're taken out of the case, the back was just this glowing yellow and you could see the bits and the bits in that one were rough. It had been rewired several times by me and it was barely functional, but it was it was fun to have.
Jack Forster This is a complete non sequitur, by the way, but I always felt Squire was like that's kind of like a sad name to give your entry level, you know guitars right I mean it's just I had a squire strat I liked it I it was my first electric guitar was a squire
Danny Milton straty level you know it's like it's I wonder if we've been if we we've been conditioned we've been conditioned to know that it to some degree too Jack to your point
James Stacy I I loved my yeah, I I liked my squire quite a bit, especially I thought they were a great value and uh played really well, and I was never gonna play in front of people, so I don't I didn't need anything any better. Like that's I mean the squire is like the ten-year-old kid who like
Jack Forster rides a rides around behind the knight on the donkey when the knight's on his like big impressive war horse, like carrying all the heavy shit that the knight doesn't want to carry because the knight's too cool to carry like you know hard tech
Danny Milton and salt beef. fo Ooho, salt beef. Also, the names being like automotive driven to medieval. You know, like what is the connection between those two things, Fender and Squire? I mean, we can this conversation for another time, but still. What is what is what is even Fender?
James Stacy What is even fender? It's thing that protects a wheel. Yeah, it is. That's right. So I mean, you know, trying to keep us somewhere in line. I I always enjoy a good chat about guitars and stuff. But uh what what were similar to the ones where uh whether it's a close case back, like in my mind, if you're talking close case back that that's kind of legendary or really well known, that's a that's a Rolex. You know, you can get it engraved. I'm sure almost anyone listening can call up a couple Rolex and grave famously engraved Rolex case backs. Some of them are at the point of being almost pop art at this point. The Brando, you know, Paul Newman's, you know, these are these are ones that we we know pretty well at this point. But beyond that, are there any the Jack Forster Day date? Yeah, there you go. Is yours is engraved? It is
Jack Forster . Uh you know, and I mean the truth is, I don't I don't think I would want a I mean like I love looking at movements probably, you know, m more than I think anybody I know. Um but uh I don't think I would uh a Rolex with a display back would feel weird. It's just like it wouldn't it would feel it would feel like less of a Rolex
James Stacy to me. But what what in your mind when you when you think of like case backs that you love, closed or otherwise, like what are some what are some that people should should take a look at? For me, it'll always be like a data graph. You know, that that one will always be it doesn't matter how many times I see that. I even had a chance to wear a datagraph perpetual for a few days a couple years ago. And just an incredible thing from any angle. But you'd sit down at dinner when it was safe. There was nothing for the watch to fall or hit. You'd lean deeply over the table and uh and take it off and then you could flip it over and even just in the light of a candle, like uh that's burned into my memory what those look like. I
Jack Forster mean well, w in terms of closed case backs that are fun to like, you know, show to people who are not necessarily watch people, um, I mean the classic moon watch case back is like the first watch worn on the moon. Flight qualified for uh all-man space flight. I mean like you know you show that to somebody they're like really
Danny Milton that that that wind up toy went to the moon? Yeah, but at the by the same token, uh speaking of Speedmasters, um little inside Hodinky baseball, when Jack did the week on the wrist with the three, two, one, I happened to be by just convenience shooting another video and needed to wrist model that watch for Jack's video. And I hadn't seen it before. And when I turned it over, someone who historically has not been an open case back guy, it just like smacked me in the face. And I think there's it's that's a watch, a specific kind of watch, unlimited production every year, um where great attention and detail is paid to finishing that movement and assembling that movement and having recreated that movement from an RD perspective just, to put it in the watch in the first place. There's no way to put into words a feeling like that when you look at a watch and just know this is supposed to be this way. And I arguably would wear this watch upside down just to stare at this and not even be able to tell the time if I could. And that's how I felt with a lot of longa movements I've seen um in my life, where both sides are equally interesting. They they add almost identical intrigue, but at the end of the day, if I was gonna you know weigh them against each other, the movements would win out. And I think that it's that that's a testament to when you know. And also we've had this conversation before on the pod, when they fit the case that's also a whole other aspect of of of movement design. Oh sure. And it and so it has to be relatively sized properly to the case itself. And in and in and in when it comes to the the speedy three two one or anything like that, that that's you know, it's just incredible.
Jack Forster I mean that's it's it's um a a little bit of a side actually, you know, maybe it's not. I mean the the whole idea that uh that a watch is a an inherently I mean, like you you go back and you look at like vintage um you know tanks entrees from the nineteen twenties, those had like round European watch company movements then though. They you know, Cardi and and uh EWEC weren't, you know, and Edmund Yeager weren't saying to themselves, oh my gosh, uh you know, nobody's gonna buy this darn thing if we don't have an uh a super elongated curved movement, you know, put into it. There were curved watches with curved movements, but um, you know that',s's like it a really difficult thing to do and you you know, you need to have sort of like a really, really good reason. You know, nobody particularly cared up until the display back error whether or not a movement was like a quote unquote
James Stacy good fit for a watch case. Yeah, I mean if you can't you can't see it, you can't see it, but it is one of those things where as soon as you put a spotlight on it, quite literally, it you you start to notice some of these things that don't always work out. The one the one that the one that I can never quite get over, and and it doesn't really make any difference because I'll probably never own such a watch, is the Royal Oak, where I drastically prefer the closed case back with the Royal Oak text, which I think has always looked really cool. And it's also, you know, if you if you go back into uh first and second series ones, that's where you can tell how old they are and that sort of thing. And now so many of them have um open case backs, which sure it looks good and the movement's pretty and it's beautifully finished and all that kind of stuff. But there's something for me about the like the closed case back of an early Royal Oak. I like that font. I like that treatment. There's not like a a ton of room for an engraving, but you could fit an engraving there as well on on some of the earlier ones. Like it it's it's interesting. I mean, like if you're bu
Jack Forster ying a mechanical watch, if you're interested in mechanical watches, everything is a signal, right? Right? Like j but just like different things different things signal different things. Like a closed case back on a A series Royal Oak definitely signals something, but it doesn't signal the same thing as a closed case back on a submariner or an open case back on a three twenty one
James Stacy um you know c,aliber speedmaster. Yeah, I I would agree. It's it's it's one of those things where like you guys said, like we started from the top, it's such a personal decision that there's not like a right or a wrong necessarily. I think there's watches that do it really well, be it closed or open, and there's watches that do it poorly, be it closed or open, but that's the same for almost an thing about watch design or or execution can be said because there's so much out there, right? And and there's some that that are kind of iconic in how they use a case back, closed or open, and and there's some that uh that kind of do it in a in a more casual sense and and then and then we have the what I would just call the seiko element, which is so just tied to enthusiasm for mechanical device, maybe not necessarily before you can appreciate the fine finishing and and a micro rotor or a hand wound movement or the you know the vertical clutch or or something like that. But the whole scenario around it just comes down to being fairly personal. So I I think it's one of those things where you, know may,be may the next thing that we dig into first all the thirty five minutes is like date cyclopses, yes or no. Right. You know, and and and I think it like it there's no winner, right? But it is kind of an interesting thing 'cause I think they've it's become a big part of watch design and and movement appreciation and the way that watches are presented. Like that's an integral part of something like a Speedmaster is its case back, right? And it's an integral part of of what you expect from a Rolex because they only do it kind of the one way. And yeah, so I think it it in some ways it's it's linked with brand identity. But it is interesting to see that that, you know, not only were we able to talk for 35 minutes about it, but you look at the comments, both of the stories have tons of comments. People feel pretty strongly about this. And I find that to be fascinating because it literally the case back makes no difference to the watch. Maybe you could make the case that in some scenarios the watch is thinner if you didn't have the display. But I think even that engineering has kind of gotten a lot better in the last five years where the watch Yeah. I think I think the only thing we've agreed upon is let's stop drawing stuff on the crystals. Agreed. I can agree on that. Jack, I I can agree with you on that, Jack. Listen, hands across the water come by uh designs on All right. Well if you want to weigh in on this argument, obviously you can swing by the show notes where you'll find the links to both Danny's article and Jack's article, or you can drop it into the comments here and we can start all over again. I I think that it's one of those things where there's merits to both sides and also this uh like I like to say, the stakes have never really been lower. I don't think that a bad case back would ruin a watch in most cases, although if you can think of one, by all means, drop that in the comments. Other than that, a little bit of housekeeping at the end here. We won't have an episode next week because we will be on our way to Geneva. But please keep an eye on the feed because starting hopefully on the 30th, we're going to try and have episodes up, kind of covering each day of the show. Obviously that depends on everyone's schedule and the rest of it, but I'm going to do my best. And I think it's going to be really fun to actually record some of these face-to-face with you fellas and uh and so many more members of the team that are going to be in Geneva. Jack, Danny, thanks for coming on and rambling about casebacks for a few minutes. Thanks, James. Thanks, Jack. It's been a pleasure. All right, and if you're listening to the show and enjoying it, all I would ask is that you share it with a friend. Other than that, we'll chat to you uh from Geneva when we're looking forward to it.