Skip to content

It's All About The Lugs, Right?

Published on Mon, 21 Feb 2022 13:00:00 +0000

A preview for the return of the big watch fair and a consideration of what really makes a bracelet "integrated".

Synopsis

In this episode of what appears to be a Hodinkee podcast, host James Stacy is joined by colleagues Jack Forster and John to discuss two main topics related to the watch industry.

The first half of the conversation focuses on the upcoming Watches and Wonders 2022 trade show in Geneva, scheduled for late March through early April. The hosts explain how the landscape of watch industry trade shows has dramatically shifted in recent years, with the once-dominant Baselworld ceasing to exist and major brands like Rolex and Patek Philippe now showing at Watches and Wonders (the evolved successor to SIHH). They discuss the logistical challenges of covering the show after a two-year pandemic hiatus, the new venue layout at Palexpo, and how independent brands and Swatch Group brands will be showing in various locations around Geneva rather than at the main exhibition hall. The conversation touches on the practical challenges of trade show coverage, from scheduling appointments to navigating new venue layouts.

The second half delves into a more philosophical debate about what constitutes an "integrated bracelet" in watchmaking. This discussion stems from a point-counterpoint article series written by Jack and John. Jack argues for a broader definition where integrated simply means a bracelet specifically designed to aesthetically match and enhance a particular watch. John takes a narrower position, arguing that integrated bracelets should be difficult to remove and not easily replaceable with standard aftermarket straps. The three editors explore various examples including the Audemars Piguet Royal Oak, Rolex Submariner, Vacheron Constantin Overseas, and Cartier Santos, ultimately arriving at what they call "the NATO test"—if you can't put a standard NATO strap on the watch due to unconventional lug design, it likely has an integrated bracelet. They acknowledge that any definition has exceptions and that the term may be one of those things that's hard to define precisely but recognizable when you see it.

Transcript

Speaker
James Stacy Hey, it's me, James Stacy, and today I've got Jack and John on the show to chat about the return of the Watch Industry Trade Show, and then a consideration of how we define an integrated bracelet. With Watches and Wonders a little more than a month away, we wanted to set the stage for what looks to be the new big show on the calendar. And after that, following a recent pair of point counterpoint stories published to the site late last week, we've got a loose and somewhat ponderous chat about watch bracelets and why we call some of them integrated. As you might expect, things get a bit nerdy. Jack, John, welcome back to the show. I think uh I think this is gonna be a fun one. We've got a few things to talk about. How are you guys doing? Doing well, James. Do
Jack Forster ing uh absolutely outstanding. I'm coming to you live from a temporary apartment that my family had to move into on very short notice so that uh the uh management team and my apartment complex could repair water damage to our ceiling. But I promise you it will not
James Stacy affect the quality of my work. You're a consummate professional even when the ceiling is literally crumbling above you. That's perfect. And you know what? I've al I've always said that about you, Jack. You know, I I appreciate both of you being on the show, of course. And uh and yeah, I think I think the first thing I want to talk about is I've been getting messages from people asking like, what are you guys doing for Basel World? What are you doing for SIHH? And I and I feel like we might want to kick off because it we're like a little over a month away from this becoming our new reality, the new watches and wonders in Geneva. But I think that a lot of people over the course of the pandemic kind of lost track of the trade show. I think the Watches Wonder people have done a really good job, but they of course they kind of rebranded in some ways from SIHH and there's different locations and each location has its own sort of thing. But the big show, the the big show literally is coming up at the end of March. And and I wanted to kick off our conversation there to just try and fill people in on what the show has become, the fact that there isn't really a Basel world that that matters to our our kind of content flow anymore and kind of what what people should expect come the end of March because it's gonna be it's gonna be a proper trade show, right John? Yeah, it it is gonna be a proper trade show. And so what we have is a show in which you know the constituent brands of what was the SIHH, a long-running, you know, invitation only show put on by um the HH or the FHH, I should say, with many brands from the Reichman group participating, has become the the heavy hitting show. So Basel World uh no longer exists. You know, some of the premier brands that one would have expected to see at Basel World. I'm talking about uh brands like the tech, Rolex, Tudor, and then also um, you know, Chanel on a more of a fashion side are in Geneva now and they're showing uh at uh Watches and Wonders. So this is really the big show for us. This is close to 40 brands. This is, you know, this is definitely gonna be like our Super Bowl, I would say, uh, you know
Jack Forster , uh this year in terms of uh a trade show. I mean, if if somebody had told me even three years ago, hey, you know, uh three years from now, Basel World will not exist anymore in any way, shape, or form, and Rolex and Paddock Philippe are going to be showing at the second at the next generation of SIHH, I would have I would have bet real money against it. I mean it's it's wild. Yeah. I thought Basel World would have gone
James Stacy on forever. Uh it seemed like you know the the kind of like North Star of the watch industry uh in its annual releases, but uh that that that North Star has shif
Jack Forster ted from Basel to Geneva, it seems. Well I mean even
James Stacy the position of the actual North Star shifts over a 28,000 year period. So you know sooner or later. Well we had a fast shift in the last couple of years. It really has kind of been sh speaking of shifting, there like the sort of tectonic plates of the big promotional wing of the Swiss watch industry have really been kind of crashing and causing earthquakes and ripples and and shockwaves throughout the whole thing. But the the end result is March 30th to about April 5th. And in many ways, I would say if you need a context for it, it's going to be fairly like a new take on SIHH, essentially. You know, it's at Pal Expo, but there's going to be other people kind of showing off stuff in the periphery around Geneva. So this is kind of going to be the main focus for 2022. Who know you never really know whether Baselworld could one day make some sort of triumphant return. But it's not a great sign, right, that Rolex and and Patek have have essentially now committed to being operators within that that it'd be hard to go back and forth, like to see that sort of musical chairs have them go to the other the other side, right? Yeah. And I I mean, uh I think that
Jack Forster one very interesting thing is that the Swiss watch industry uh in 2021, it had its best year commercially ever. For as long as they've been keeping records, the highest um uh number for value of exported watches ever. So that's an incredible thing. And that happened in the complete absence of trade shows. So the whole um urgency about showing at Basel World historically was that you know brands would go there, retailers would go there, and they would sign their order books for the year, and then the brands knew exactly how many watches they were supposed to produce for a given year because the orders were already in. And um, you know, you kind of had to be there in order to do business at all. But you know, when an when an entire industry has its best year ever without ever, without any trade shows, you know, you start to realize that perhaps what trade shows are going to be about moving moving forward is it's really uh a uh almost entirely a PR activation and not a commercial activation anymore.
James Stacy So the other interesting thing is is one of the main parties that kind of started the death knell of Basel World, the you know, the Swatch group and and especially Omega, who's always been kind of front and center in Hall One, they're not gonna be at Watches and Wonders twenty twenty two. They're they're continuing to do their own thing, which I think they started in 19, if I remember correctly. It might even have been 18, but I think 18 was their last year at uh at Basel World. And it's interesting to see that they're gonna continue on that path, even when you have brands, like we said, Rolex and Patek making the choice. And back in the day, the big holdouts from an indie side, I believe, would have been Rolex, Patek, Chopar. But when Omega left, I guess that was enough to uh, you know, kind of suggest where things were headed. Yeah, it was a it was Omega and all of the swatch group. And in fact, you know, some of the higher end brands, uh, you know, the burguets and the blanc ponds of the swatch group will in fact uh be showing novelties, uh, new watches at their uh Geneva boutiques. So they will be participating this week. What you know, what we're seeing is a real uh return of what you know we in the industry used to call uh the Geneva watch week, where we would have, you know, SIHH, a now defunct but once quite popular show of independence called the GTE and all these other kind of events uh happening around the same time, including the independence that would show uh in hotel rooms along the play. What we're seeing developing, and it's and it's literally happening like by the day. I'm just I I got um I was wondering about some independence today on the the day we were recording, whether they'd be showing or not. And I I got an email from several of these brands saying um, you know, come see us in in hotel X or Hotel Y. So it's really uh gonna be quite a big thing. It'll be an interesting thing to try and cover this year, right? 'Cause uh there's uh a lot of newness to it, but it it it's more just that you we're at like two years out of practice. Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause it's like the Super Bowl or the Olympics. Like whatever you do for the year, however well you write or how fast you write or the perspectives you develop on on given markets and brands or or you know, maybe photography, all that sorts of thing, it's all kind of at least in my in my six, seven years of going to Basel, it was always to be better the next year you went to Basel, to be 30 minutes faster writing a story, or a little bit better with photos, or or a little bit more ready to do something that say one of the other outlets wasn't doing, be it video or or otherwise or podcasting or whatever
Jack Forster . I mean the great thing about being a regular several years running at both Basel World and SIHH was that pretty much everything was in the same place from one year to the next. So you didn't really have to think too much about uh And you know, just to set the stage for I I think probably most of uh the folks listening are not familiar with the actual physical setup for the for the SIHH and uh you know so there's this gigantic exhibition hall large enough to hold several seven forty sevens right across the highway from the Geneva Airport called the Pell Expo Center. Uh that's where the main show is this year. But there are also a bunch of uh sort of subswsho taking place. Uh, you know, about halfway from Geneva to the airport, there's gonna be another smaller show of uh largely independent brands. There's gonna be another show of independent watchmakers, you know, as distinguished from independent brands. As John mentioned, several Swatch Group brands are showing new pieces at their boutiques in Geneva. And then there's going to be a lot of other brands, I I actually don't know how many, but you you know, probably you know, at least a dozen posting up in different hotel rooms. We're inviting you to their workshops in and around Geneva. Yeah, it's gonna be uh it's gonna
James Stacy be a sort of a whole new ballgame. It involves a lot of running around. I don't necessarily envy some of the members of the team that haven't done a trade show before and jumping into one where so many parties will be kind of operating not in a solo aspect but without understanding the way that their actions might cascade into others, whether it be length of meetings or it's a new layout for the hall, so n the fact that I used to be able to know where Richard Mill was uh i in relation to Piaget, that's gone now. Like that that knowledge is useless. Oh, I freaked out when I saw the map. Uh I was like, they moved the entrance? Yeah, it's like it's like hitting a new dungeon in Zelda and you're just kind of like, oh my goodness, this is gonna take a while for sure. This is gonna be a while befor
Jack Forster e I know where I am, right? Well John is uh is um uh managing our uh uh appointment schedule. So I mean he's uh has um ongoing daily intimate experience of trying to, you know, make this whole, you know, freaking Tetris puzzle work. Yeah. I mean
James Stacy it's we're we're really fortunate in that we have uh a large contingent of uh of editors heading over. Uh so we'll we will be able to apply, I think, a divide and conquer uh strategy to the show. But um yeah, it's uh it's always tricky to make sure that like, you know, when you want to go from one key brand that you're very interested in seeing to another, that you're able to make it and uh not lose time in getting there. And then also have, you know, the right people with uh cameras uh on location to take photographs. The other one that I'm really concerned about, and I'm sure that I'm not the only one, but it it's it's a serious thing that I'm I'm like legitimately I'm losing sleep over it is I'm worried that they're not going to have the carpaccio at the lun at the lunch tables. You don't you don't always get to when when you're in a different country, you don't always kind of get food that that allows you to continue working, if that makes any sense. And the fact that I could sit down and have like an arugula salad and some protein and keep moving. It didn't take a long time. They were very organized and and the food was good. Of course I'm kidding. I don't care what they feed me. I'll eat protein bars. It doesn't matter. But it is something that in my mind I was like, are they gonna change the menu? Because a couple pieces of sushi and some carpaccio really ke
Jack Forster pt me going. You can have a surprisingly um subjectively grubby experience in a luxury setting. And uh, you know, there's something about s snatching a slightly soggy sandwich that's been sitting out on a plate for two hours as you go to your next meeting to look at a bunch of thirty-five thousand dollar watches that um yeah it's an interesting contrast. I and every single person who just heard me say that who's listening just To be
James Stacy clear, we're we're literally we're literally kidding. They can feed us uh, you know, uh give me a big toblerone when I get to the airport and I'll just keep I'll work my way through it. Chocolate and espresso like a I'm excited for the show. I really am. Uh I I would say I'm also very anxious about how everything will come together, but thankfully, like like Jack said, we've got John at the helm, so we're in good hands. Uh, I don't think we'll get lost, that sort of thing. Hopefully, the travel. I think that's kind of the biggest, the biggest wonder for for me is that everybody's kind of flights work out. I'm thrilled. I'm I'm you know, I'm already thinking about what gear I'
Jack Forster m supposed to be And then there's always the question of which prescription drugs to bring with you. I mean, uh I personally recommend a a suite of uh benzodiazepines, uh non narcotic sleep aids. Sure, sure, sure, sure. And and I'd be a small pharma
James Stacy cy. A small pharmacy, yeah. That's that's what's required. I I always I would like to rely on um on uh uh you know certain fermented goods and no small quantity of of uh street meat if possible. All right, so I think that's probably enough for, you know, trade show stuff. Obviously, watch this space. I don't know what we're going to be doing for podcasting at the show yet, but I'd like to do something or some sort of like mega shows that have every editor on them and it's just a complete mess kind of downloading our experiences afterward. But we'll we'll find a solution and there'll be tons on the site. Uh be sure to you know follow all the social stuff because that's where the fast stuff will come out. And and we'll have more more updates as to how best to interface with that content as we get closer to the show, I'm sure. Beyond that, you know, there's another topic that I've got on the list for today, and and one of the main reasons I asked you two to be on the show is you guys have produced a kind of one of our signature series, it's this point counterpoint where editors take either side of an argument and kind of share their perspective. And and it's a an argument or a point of argument that I feel very strongly about, which is um bracelets in general, but certainly whether you're better off with an integrated design or uh something a little bit more general. And uh I I I think this could go either way. I think there's perspectives on both sides that make a lot of sense.. Uh I' Ill' lell leaveave it it. to you guys Give me the uh the bullet points of uh of
Jack Forster your positions if you will. So the way we kind of framed it was there's two possible definitions. So we've all heard the term integrated bracelet. Everybody uses the term So John and I thought, wouldn't it be fun to do a point counterpoint where I, for the sake of argument, take the position that integrated bracelet just means a bracelet that has been designed specifically to fit and enhance the aesthetics of a watch. And John takes the narrower position, which is definitely a position that some people adhere to, and we know because we've both heard about it from people in the comments, uh, where integrated bracelet means uh a bracelet that is not only an aesthetic and engineering match to the watch, but which is also um difficult in the extreme to dislodge from its position. Um so like it's not it's not a uh an aftermarket modification friendly design. Is that uh that about right, John
James Stacy ? Yeah, I would I would say so. I mean it's it's to me it,'s the watches that come probably immediately to mind. Like, you know, a royal oak is going to have a bracelet that is only going to fit on a royal oak. I'm sure there are aftermarket solutions that you could that you could find out there for it. But you know, as most people understand that watch, it is the it is a specific bracelet that it was designed by AP to fit on to that case. You know, end of story. It's a it is a narrow position, I think, to take. But I think it's I mean, I think I frankly think it's probably the more popular one
Jack Forster . I could be wrong, but that's certainly the way that I've always viewed it. Aaron P Iowell mean I, think you're probably right. Of course, you know, we're recording this before the stories go live. So uh we're, you know, we're we're certainly going to uh know what the um consensus horologium uh is from the comments by the time this uh article goes live. But yeah, I mean uh you know look for uh for terms to mean anything they have to be as rigorously defined as possible. Now I mean normally I'm uh on the side of narrow prescriptivism when it comes to definitions. But a good place to start the conversation is the Royal Oak, because in fact that is like I I mean, that that and the Nautils are probably the classic examples of what constitutes a um uh an integrated bracelet watch. If you were to take a position any
James Stacy different from the one that I'm taking, essentially all bracelets then would be integrated, right? But what if you used an example like the Omega No Time to Die L E as a titanium forty-one millimeter C master with a titanium mesh bracelet, but it's not fitted end links. You could take that bracelet off and put it on not only any other C Master, but on any watch with a I guess a 20 millimeter lug width. Not integrated, I don't. Yeah, no not in my mind either. But then if what if you take it a step further and you say a uh solid N link bracelet from a sub, right? That's only gonna fit a sub conceivably or a watch with a very similar case, right? Yeah, I mean that's an interesting point that you raise, but I think it's really, you know you could also uh find a strap that would not be, you know, made by the company that wouldn't have to have that kind of edling structure to fit right in there. No problem. Absolutely. Uh in the same way that like you know with a you know it's hard to make a president bracelet fit onto like a GMT master or something like that. But like the strap solution if you want to go that route is very easy. Would be the same. Yeah. I see what you mean. I think the Royal Oak is a great option because you it doesn't use a conventional lug shape. So you either have that bracelet or you have something that mimics that bracelet. You can't just buy a strap. Right. Maybe we need a like a th
Jack Forster ird category to sort of deal with like the semi-integrated.
James Stacy That Rolex might believe that their their bracelets are integrated bracelets, in that I don't think they assume most people would buy a sub on a bracelet and then ever take it off the bracelet
Jack Forster . But so here's the thing: nobody ever ever, to the to my knowledge, has has ever said, despite the fact that you could make a pl kind of a plausible argument for it, nobody has ever called a submariner bracelet an integrated bracelet, and nobody ever calls a sub-integrated bracelet watch. So and if we contrast that with a royal oak, I mean it turns out that it's actually not that hard to take the bracelet off a royal oak. It's held on by screws that go into a threaded bar that runs through the part of the bracelet that's closest to the watch. So if you can use a screwdriver and you exercise like basic precautions like putting a bit some s throwing some scotch tape over the screw hole, you can literally have the bracelet off a royal oak in like less than five minutes. And um then there's like and it turns out, I'm and you know, like I said in the article, I'm not going to curry any favor with AP by saying this probably, but it turns out that there's a ton of aftermarket straps, uh I don't know about bracelets, but a ton of aftermarket straps for the Royal Oak. And it also turns out that I mean, and obviously the um AP makes uh straps for different model Royal Oaks as well, which are delivered with OEM, you know, leather straps. So it gets it gets a little it gets a little fuzzy, right? Like, okay, so uh does it have to do with like being impossible to remove? Does it have to do with being frustrating to remove? Does it have to do with like aesthetics? I mean, I'm sorry, when you say
James Stacy that there are aftermarket solutions, is that are those things that work somehow into the provided end links or the end links that you would have from a from a pre-existing AP strap? Or is this like an end link solution that that makes it that goes onto the case?
Jack Forster aron Powell So it's um the non-OEM straps basically work the same way that the OEM straps do. Uh they fit into that uh you know smaller interlog space and then you just run the the bar through. what you're doing is so um is such a kind of i
James Stacy conic watch as the royal oak. I guess it it pays to make something aftermarket for it. But by and large, I mean they I I just I
Jack Forster I I I I haven't seen those things. You know, I d I guess I'd have to look I I mean I I ne'dver actually seen uh how easy it was. I I'm I'm gonna admit this, you know, straight up. I mean uh the i it it had just never occurred to me that anyone would even want to put a non-OEM strap on a royal oak. I wasn't until we started working on this point counterpoint that it it was uh as easy as it is to take the bracelet off a royal oak, because it's like trivially e
James Stacy asy to take the bracelet off a royal oak. In my world, I don't think that the difficulty of removing the strap comes into the statement at all. Because if you look at something like an overseas, the current overseas line from Vashron is all quick connect, but it's definitely integrated. So those come off in seconds. Right. But they have a weird lug shape. The other one to keep in mind would be like uh like an Oris Aqua. So it's not just very expensive watches, something like an Aquash, you can't just put a standard strap on. And in my world, I would see the difference, this the simple difference between integrated and whatever you would call the other option is not whether or not you can remove the strap easily, but when it's gone, can I put a NATO on it? Can I put a normal 20 millimeter strap on it, right? Yeah. That's that's that's how I feel. I was gonna say, is like the is the defining diagnostic test the NATO test? Will it take a NATO? If not, you have
Jack Forster you have yourself an integrated bracelet watch. See, this is uh this is again it's it's it's very, very hard to find a a hard and fast dividing line, right? Like, okay, you can put a NATO on it, but do you have to use a slightly smaller NATO? Does it start looking awkward? At what point is it too awkward for it to be like you know for the NATO test to be a useful you know diagnostic. I mean right uh I mean you know where I really ended up landing with this was kind of looking at how the word is actually used and it tends to be used for watches where there's um sort of an emphasis on aesthetics, an emphasis on design. And the bracelet is really a is intended to explicitly be a continuation of and a further expression of the aesthetic that informed the case des
James Stacy ign. That's really the best that I could come up with. Yeah. If if had I been assigned to this, I think I would I would make the argument, I'm actually not sure which side who whose argument I'd be picking up on, because it's it's it's nuanced. It's a simple thing, but it's just a question of like is the watch such that it's it's meant to kind of use the one bracelet, or is it such that you could take it off like like I don't think a Rolex as as closely integrated as a Rolex bracelet is to a modern Rolex case, which is very the tolerances are remarkable, even from normal bracelet standards on almost any price point. But you could take that bracelet off and then conceivably if I if I have a Rolex sport watch of similar interlug measurement, I could take that bracelet and put it on that watch too. So you could, you know, people did this. They took the Jubilee off of one and put it on another, and as long as the you know the distance matched, it it lined up because the case shapes were uniform. I and I guess you could almost make the case world, yeah, but if you took the bra the bracelet off your gold royal oak, you could put it on your steel royal oak. You know if you just wanted to watch the world burn really. But so is that but I I so I guess man, I feel like I've talking myself out of this own argument. In my mind it's so clear, but as soon as you start talking about it, it's more complicated, right? It like though is is the bracelet's hyper specific to that case or is there something kind of universal about the lug shape
Jack Forster . So I mean it's like I mean one of the things that I ended up feeling pretty strongly was that if if you just isolate the question of can you easily change the bracelet for a strap, that doesn't really hold up the longer that you look at it because I mean like the c th the modern Cartier Santos Dumont, um, you know, just to pick one example, the Vagron overseas is another, both of those have quick change strap systems. And it's like you you can you can change the strap for bracelet and back, you know, in in a second. And I don't think there are any non-OEM solutions to those two watches in terms of um making straps, non-OEM straps that would work with a quick change system. But the quick change system isn't like, you know it,'s not the large hadron collider. It's not this like unreproducible piece of engineering. And if there's one thing that I kind of learned from uh you know researching this story and looking at all of these different cases, you know, what what man can make, man can imitate. And especially if it's something as relatively straightforward as a quick quick change strap system, that can be imitated too. So I mean if somebody out there, especially nowadays when you can, you know, when it when it's incredibly, incredibly easy to machine steal parts. You know, if you wanted to, if I I don't want anybody would want to, but if you wanted to make a non-OEM bracelet strap solution for an overseas or for a or for a Santos Dumont, I I suspect that you probably could, and I suspect it would not be that hard considering how easily high fidelity fak
James Stacy es of entire watches uh are these days. Well and and especially there's there's always these these cottage industries that spring up when a brand doesn't fulfill something people want. So with let's go let's go back to Rolex and they won't sell you you can't buy a steel Daytona and then go back to the AD and go, Well, yeah, I'll pay you the two grand or whatever for an Oyster Flex. You had to buy the watch that came with the Oyster Flex, which means it didn't come with the bracelet, right? But then you have Everest and Rubber B and all these other brands on the periphery that do the work and do the measurement and make these really high-end FKM, you know, rubber straps that that fit like OEM but aren't. Right? Yeah. Yeah. It it'd be interesting to see if you s if that cascades like I think the Royal Oak is big enough that you would have cottage industry straps, probably from the absolute bargain basement like Alibaba, AliExpress sort of stuff all the way up. And you saw it when Casio wasn't doing the right stuff with their sort of royal oak adjacent design. That you know, whether it was only a bracelet or it was only a rubber strap, people wanted metal cases because it's a modular, so you can remove most of the case and buy a metal one. So the the non-OEM option is kind of an interesting play, but in in my mind, this is something that goes from, you know, like very sort of specific watches, very that that sort of Genta-esque thing kind of always had the integrated lug design. And it's almost less about the bracelet or the strap and more about the way the lugs themselves are designed. And that's true for the PRX, it's true for the Odysseus, it's true for you know so many watches that we see in the Aaron Pow
Jack Forster ell The Odysseus is an interesting case because Ion Hodinky and several other writers on other outlets described that as an integrated bracelet watch. And several people posted howls of derision in the comments saying, how can you call it an integrated bracelet watch. Clearly you could just take this bracelet off and uh you can add a strap. And you know, it's easy to find pictures uh of Odysseus's Odyssey. Of owners who've done exactly that. And uh and then when Long and Zona released um uh an OEM strap version of the Odysseus, it was actually the strap was actually designed in such a way as to make it look as if there was an idiosyncratic interlog widths. The NATO test actually gets surprisingly close, but it's not a completely sat
James Stacy isfactory. Can you put a generic strap on the watch, yes or no? If it has to be like it's almost like like uh like if you've ever been I I don't know, my brain always goes back to car comparisons. But obviously like wheels on a car are interchangeable, but you have to have the right lug pattern, right? But then what if your car has, say, center locks? You only can have that's maybe that's the the equivalent to uh you know maybe there's 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 millimeter lugs and you got to fit the right strap. Maybe you've got three lug or four lug or five lug patterns. But then when you get to center locks, then then we're into integrated. You have to have something that's compatible with the original design of the of the system. It's just more specific. Or the lugs. It's almost more the lugs than the actual amount. Um are so specific that that they it means you can't just put your favorite leather strap or your NATO or whatever on it. All right. So have uh does integrated bracelet
Jack Forster really just mean a difficult lug with weird ass lugs? Maybe. Like for you know, for a while, like in the mid to early two thousands, like John, I'm sure you would remember this. You'd like you'd go to you'd go to uh like Basel World, speaking of Basel World, and there would always be some new like two hundred and twenty-seven thousand dollar hyper watch and it always and nine times out of ten it had an extra center lug sticking out between the other two lugs. Oh yeah. I always hated that. That was a popular kind of design uh design motif for a while, that third lug. Yeah so is that I mean is that is that it like a a weird ass lug that frustrates attempts to use a non-relevant But if they it depends if they're following a pattern that others uh are
James Stacy also following or if they if if their design is you know so unique as to thwart uh you know interchangeability betwe
Jack Forster en some other hype watch with a third log, you know? I wonder if you can take I mean they're both Richmond group brands. I wonder if you can take the an interchangeable strap from a Vashmont overseas and kind of sort of stick
James Stacy it on a Cartier Santos. I I gotta assume not. But look looking at integrated brace, like they come they come in a bunch of varieties, but there does seem to be that thing where either the lugs are quite wide and the first link is quite narrow, or the entire channel is wide and there's two little narrow kind of bridge links. And either way you can you can't you can't put a NATO on it. Uh or or uh if if that if that ends up being the test, you know, can it
Jack Forster NATO? If you've got if you've got one of those two hundred and seventy five thousand dollar uh triple lug watches you could use two extremely narrow nato's and you know just thread them through. Oh yeah. That'd be a look. Oh w
James Stacy ow. If you this in in in your in your words, James, if you if you just want to watch the world burn. If you just want to watch the world burn. Mix and match, baby. You do what you need to do. But yeah, like I think at a certain point, if you're if you're swapping bracelets, especially out of brand, you're an agent of chaos. And I'm not saying I'm not, I'm not here for you. I'm just saying you should be you should be prepared for non-integrated results. So basically what you're saying, James, is you can't decide if you're chaotic good or lawful evil. I want to say I, you know, I'm more comfortable putting my head on the pillow at night with chaotic good, but you know the lies we tell ourselves, right? I'm a guy that'll put a NATO on just about anything. I think the first the whole reason I I think I first really got turned on to a gray NATO in the first place was was a photo that Ben had posted years ago, which I think was pulled out of time zone of somebody with um uh 5960 on a NATO and I was like oh wait this makes me feel something that was William Messina yeah I believe so I still like that photo it still means something to me it's it's kind of in my brain, as like a a bit of an icon. But you know, that that's that to a lot of people would be sacrilege. And and and but I would say that that makes a strong case that like that watch, that's not an integrated bracelet watch by any by any measure.
Jack Forster Here's one last intuition, Pump. What about a gold watch that has a gold bracelet that has been soldered onto the case, but the bracelet
James Stacy is somewhat generic in appearance? Like like the some of the mesh millonets on uh like the early long a ones, stuff like that. Yeah. Deeply integrated. Exactly. Maybe you would even call that fixed. Not integrated as much as it's fixed. Can't change it. And I think actually one of the 5960s, I I think it wasn't the I think the steel 5960 when that came out also had that. It was like a kind of like a beads of rice or type of bracelet that um
Jack Forster did did not come off the watch. You know what this whole conversation reminds me of? A really boring dinner party. It reminds me of a very famous quote by a Supreme Court justice named uh Potter. The value of the Internet. Um something something judge Judge Potter Stewart said. Uh he was trying a uh case, he was reviewing a case where a book had been uh banned because it was uh uh banned as uh pornography is pornographic. And uh he argued that uh the book was not in fact pornographic, and his argument uh basically what he said, and this is a verbatim quote, was uh I can't define pornography, but I know it when I see it. So maybe and so you know perhaps that's the situation with integrated bracelet watches. Like it's really they the the term eludes an exact definition, but we nine times out of ten, we all agree uh on whether or not a watch is an integrated bracelet watch. And then, you know, we things tend to tend to fall apart if you try to pin the term down. But we use the term comfortably and there's general, there's n there's not complete consensus, but there seems to be general consensus about when it sho
James Stacy uld be used, when it's meaningful to use it and when it's not. I I think especially after chatting it over, uh probably more than I ever have outside of my own uh internal monologue. You know, I think I I would say that it seems to come down to does the watch allow for you to fit a conventional strap, a straight edge later uh leather, uh a NATO or not? And if the answer is not, and you're either confined to the straps that they've provided you like with an overseas, or you're forced into the murky realms of the third party fitament world, maybe you're living more of an integrated lifestyle
Jack Forster . I think that that's probably the closest anyone is ever gonna uh get to um, you know, a defensible uh an actual real defensible definition of an integrated bracelet watch. And you know, but there's th there's uh every single possible definition I can think of, including that one, has y you know, uh cases that are sort of um Yeah, rule break
James Stacy ers. Exceptional, kind of outside the boundary of the definition. You know, to to find to find some common ground and point counterpoint. It'll be interesting to see if if this is what kind of comes up in the comments from the stories or or if we're saying something that's only going to make it worse. Uh if if we if we don't see the turn before it happens and and we're just leaning into it.
Jack Forster But do do please check out those posts. I would I would say that our little conversation uh you know actually can serve as as an example to the uh uh to to the politicians and even the despots of the world that it is possible for men of goodwill, individuals of goodwill, uh to meet over a contentious issue and uh achieve, if not consensus, at least a peaceable agreement to disagree. Maybe there too the answer
James Stacy is just, you know, can you NATO? We don't we don't need to keep that in. Oh no
Jack Forster . I can I I I have to say I wish I wish I'd thought
James Stacy of that. That is the best joke I've heard on hoodie radio. I'm I'm in the sweet spot between coffees right now. Listen, I didn't think of it, but at least I set you up for it. Oh you absolutely did. No, you you you you yeah you laid you laid that whole table out for me. You know the stakes couldn't really be lower on a conversation about uh bracelets and what they mean beyond being a bracelet. Uh but I did have a really good time chatting with you guys. Anyone listening, if you have any feedback on questions about watches and wonders, anything maybe you think that we should be doing for the show that we should start thinking about now instead of you know after the show, let us know in the comments. If you want to weigh in on integrated bracelets, will it NATO, et cetera, let us know in the comments. We're there too. And otherwise, you know, we're going to chat to you in about a week's time and we really appreciate you listening. Jack, John, thanks so much for being on. It was fun. Thanks, James. See ya.