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So Many New Watches - AP, Zenith, Tag Heuer, And More

Published on Mon, 31 Jan 2022 13:00:00 +0000

The latest from LVMH and the 50th anniversary of the Royal Oak.

Synopsis

James Stacy hosts fellow Hodinkee team members Jack Forster, Logan Baker, and Danny Milton to discuss the latest watch releases from LVMH Watch Week and Audemars Piguet's 50th anniversary celebrations. The discussion begins with LVMH brands, focusing on TAG Heuer's new Autavia chronograph and GMT models featuring the Heuer 02 movement, as well as a new 40mm Aquaracer that the team finds more wearable than previous iterations. They examine Zenith's Defy line releases, including the Defy Revival and the new Defy Skyline with its distinctive small seconds display, and Hublot's Big Bang Integral at 40mm. The conversation touches on Bulgari's ultra-high-end Octo Roma Carillon Tourbillon and new Serpenti pieces.

The main focus shifts to Audemars Piguet's Royal Oak 50th anniversary releases, particularly the new 16202 "Jumbo" which replaces the legendary caliber 2121 with the new 7121 movement after 22 years. The team discusses the significance of this change, including the addition of a quick-set date and the move from roller bearings to ball bearings. They also cover the new 37mm Royal Oak models with minimalist dials and the various precious metal versions. Throughout the discussion, the hosts maintain editorial independence despite LVMH being a minority investor in Hodinkee, sharing candid opinions about sizing, wearability, finishing, and market positioning of these significant releases.

Transcript

Speaker
James Stacy Hey, it's me, James Stacy, and after last week's really exciting launch of the Collector's Edition with Ben Clymer, which you should definitely check out, and I'll link it in the show notes, I'm back on the mic with Jack, Logan, and Danny to chat about the latest releases from LVMH Watch Week and a flurry of announcements from Ottomar Pigay as they celebrate a noteworthy anniversary. It was a busy week and we've got a ton to talk about, so let's do it. Guys, welcome back to the show. How are we doing? Doing good. Uh can't complain. Good to see all your faces guys. Nice to see everybody. Nice to see you guys as well. So I want to dig into the latest news. I think we'll start with the LVMH stuff. I think some blanket disclosure is helpful at this point. So the LVMH group, uh as many people know who are listening, includes Tag Hoyers, Zenith, Hublow, and Bulgary of brands that we're going to be chatting about over the next few minutes. And although LVMH Luxury Ventures is a minority investor in Hodinky, we maintain complete editorial independence, and that includes whatever gets said on this podcast. Uh so I think we can move forward. Uh I feel like tag is kind of the one that I want to start with. You guys agree? Absolutely. Sure. All right. So I think we've got two kind of bigger announcements from tag. The first one being a kind of rebirth of the Ottavia chronograph and and uh I think that also includes like a GMT version, right, Logan? Not a chronograph, but like a three-hander GM
Logan Baker T or four. Yeah, it does. Yeah. So uh uh as part of the 60th anniversary for the Ottavia this year, tag came out with uh two new versions, uh the first flyback iterations of the caliber hoyer oh two, which is a movement I really uh enjoy, I think for the price. It's basically the best chronograph movement you can get out there today. I mean column wheel, uh just a really kind of smart architecture all the way around. You know, I think it does a really good job of building on the legacy of tag hoyer and hoyer in chronographs. Uh, and then we also have a Tag Warrior GMT, Otavia GMT, based off the SLIDA GMT movement. So it is a caller, not a flyer. Sorry to say that, James. And I'm also sorry to say that it's not a uh revival of the chronograph GMT, which was the hope, yeah. Yeah, which was the the hope. So that's where we're at so far for the the Octavia anniversary year. Danny was able to go hands-on with them uh a bit. I saw them you, know for, a few minutes in person, but I know Danny
James Stacy had his uh kind of his loop out. Danny, what do you think? I I I I went through your story and you found them a little bit bigger than you were expecting. Yeah, I think I'm
Danny Milton sure I was expecting them to be big after reading Logan's coverage just because they they seem like kind of big watches. I um I snuck the word thick boys into my story, which passed all the edits and made it into the final uh the final cut. So you know, are you talking about Yeah that's this the name of this podcast, the thick boys. Talk LVMH watch week boys hour. Talking thick. But uh yeah, no design wise I I appreciate that the tag is kind of leaned into this new Octavia aesthetic that they started with what was originally called the Octavia Isograph. Uh what was it two years ago when that came out? So you know you've got some some hallmarks of that with the ceramic bezel, the style of the numerals, but it's a big watch. And I'm one that would prefer, especially for a chronograph, something at 40 millimeters or under. And we'll get to that in a few minutes about how Tag did get that right. But it's one of those watches that in the hand looks awesome. On the wrist, if you're n if you don't have the wrist to to pull it off, it it really kind of feels like a watch wearing you. And I I kind of can never really get into that, but I went into it with a lot of like with Logan's enthusiasm from his original post. And so I kind of had more excitement than I think I would have had originally. And for the record, Logan actually brought a loop. So he did make a joke that I pulled the loop out Logan pulled a loop out of his pocket uh during uh uh when we were we were previewing product. It was it
James Stacy was it was pretty cool, I've gotta say. Always carrying, you know? Always. So yeah, I think you know, you you're saying a you know the thick jokes, uh you know a thick watch requires a thick wrist, I suppose. Uh I think these look really good. Uh I really like the sort of balance they've struck in terms of general legibility of the actual time display. So big hands, big Arabic markers, and then kind of a nicely integrated chronograph. And then because of the movement they're using, and I would agree with what Logan says is a fantastic movement for the at this price point. But you get like some niceties like the date is at six. It's tucked into the dial. So you get this nice level of symmetry on there, whereas other brands that have to make do with modifying uh seventy seven fifty or or something like that, you end up with, you know, weird date placements or, you know, maybe uh sub dial layouts that don't always make a lot of sense or or or don't read that quickly. That that's a lot of that's
Danny Milton really true. Especially with the all-black version. If you aren't looking hard enough, you won't even see the date window on that one. It's um it's effectively hidden inside of the one of the sub-registers. Um to that point, you get a watch design that that effectively looks like a like a time-only chronograph, which is great to your point of symmetry. Um, and I totally agree with you. Legibility-wise, I mean if you have a big watch with numerals that large, you're gonna be able to read the time very easily. It's just a question of I always just come back to wearability and I just I I would prefer a watch that was more universally wearable. And I think this kind of toes the line between the mass consumerist taghoyer that we know and the enthusiast taghoyer. It's really a mishmash. Usually they do one or the other exceedingly well. And this time they're they've kind of met in the middle, which I think is interesting. Well, by the way, guys, on the uh d
James Stacy ate window placement at six o'clock, of course, that goes all the way back to the nineteen sixty-nine caliber 11. Right. Yeah, yeah. I was I was going to say this is something like I I've owned a couple tags in my time and they do dates well, but the date at six, yeah, like to Jack's point isn't only on the Hoyer O2. Logan, I'm curious, do you know what's the smallest watch that they've put a Hoyer O two in? Could this conceivably could they do a thirty-eight millimeter version of this or that at that point are we below the confines of the structure of the movement? I mean off the top of my head, I think f
Logan Baker they haven't gone below forty two millimeter. I might be incorrect about that, uh, but I feel like 42 is kind of the standard for the Hoyer O2. Uh Danny helpfully put the movement specs for the Hoyer O2 in there. So it's a 31 millimeter movement. Theoretically, I think they could go, you know, to 40 millimeter, but then it depends on proportions because it is the movement itself is over 13 millimeter, as Danny hopefully pointed out in his story. So, you know, at the end of the day, I do trust the, you know, watch designers that they're balancing proportions with uh in when they're kind of creating the cases. You know, proportions are are a big part of that. You could have the best looking watch in the world, but if you have weird proportions, it just doesn't make sense. Absolutely. Ye
James Stacy ah. No, I've and I've experienced that recently. There'll be a review that goes up in a couple of days that kind of uh confronts that issue that it's not necessarily all the measurements, it's also how it all stacks together. Stacks. Right. And that and that's where like how a watch wears its weight. We're making Exactly. And we're making thick jokes, but like how the watch wears its weight on your wrist and the shape of your wrist makes a big difference. The the other thing that that I would highlight while we're talking about the aesthetic is the all black sort of version of the of the chronograph. I get real bathscaf vibes from that. You remember the ceramic bathscaf, the original kind of first chronograph one uh with the dark sort of case and the matched bezel. Kind of similar vibes, a very pretty looking thing in in uh in photos and and certainly uh to some degree in person. Nice and dark, but lots of uh contrast there. Are you talking about the bla
Logan Baker ck ceramic flyback chronographs? Yes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a cool piece. And I see, yeah, I see what you mean. I like those a lot. Yeah. They're it's kind of got that inky, like kind of stealthy vibe to it. And I like the the bezel on these Ottavias quite a bit. You know, it's it's very it had kind of like a fluid vibe to it, which I liked. Like almost like a digital feeling. Glassy.
Jack Forster Yes. Yes. That's a good that's a good way of putting it. I keep going back to the size question. Like the O2 is 31 millimeters, 7750 is 30 millimeters, and you know, just based on diameter they could put that movement in smaller watches, but there's this like I'm I mean I don't have any sort of scientific data to support this, but I always feel like cron uh chronographs at more aff affordable price points, you know, especially under five thousand, they tend to be a little bit on the bigger size because that seems to be what uh folks are in the market for those uh you know for those kinds of chronographs want. Like even if you even if you look at like Citizens sub one thousand dollar uh mecca quartz ecodrive you know chronographs, those are those are big. Those are big boys. Yeah. Those are thick bo
James Stacy ys. Sticking with sticking with the thick boy nomenclature. You know, it it's something we've talked about so many times that I I I'm not sure we have to dig it up entirely again, but I mean the general taste in the watch enthusiast world has started to shift down to forty and under, but the watch buying world out uh you know it is significantly larger than the kind of enthusiast core and those folks you know a lot of brands would suggest that people still like a big kind of burly sports watch and 42 certainly isn't even that big. That's a a mid-sized watch from at least the last decade, right? Yeah. And I mean, even
Logan Baker the the vintage Octavious, like the 1163, like the stuff that was powered by Caliber 11, Caliber 12, those were 42 millimeter. Like these were tool watches through and through, y'all. That's the the kind of authentic size there. Yeah, they were, I think, a millimeter to uh thinner. Um, I think the vintage ones were like 14, while this is closer to 16. And don't get me wrong. Sixteen's uh thick boy. But that is that is actually
Danny Milton uh SKX double seven. And then and and a little bit more, yeah. No, I think literally. I have a thick boy counter. I'm just tallying up how many times we're saying thick boys in this podcast. I think it's banned. I think we're done saying
James Stacy okay. If we gotta start counting it, we gotta stop it. I don't wanna measure this. This isn't a metric our podcast needs. Speaking of watch sizing, they they also launched a new Acker Racer, the Outdoors Line, and uh kind of the big story here, you know, right right in the headline, and this is another one that Danny wrote up uh and did a lovely job with, uh it's it's forty millimeters. Steel bezel, kind of a very straightforward, good looking automatic dive watch. What do you
Danny Milton think of these, Danny? You know, last year, I think you were on this pod, we talked about the Taghoyer Professional 300 at 43 millimeters, I believe. And all we really talked about was how much we wished And it's very cool to see. I highly doubt that's why this happened. But to see it happen isn't is is really nice. And the the reason that I got so excited about the watch, I think Logan and I both were for a variety of reasons when we knew what was coming down the pike. Is that this is where Tag Hoyer has operated for the last, I don't know, 30 years now? I mean, they have the brand Hoyer has a storied history, sure, but Taghoyer also has something of a storied, you know, modern history in terms of being the sort of mass consumerist first luxury watch in a lot of ways. And they kind of ran that segment, you know, all throughout the late eighties into the nineties, and the early two thousands. And I think making a watch that's so obviously versatile, like this outdoors. And and what what I appreciate most about it is they're calling it the outdoors to segment it away from trying to call it a dive watch. So, in so many ways, it's just a multi-purpose sport watch. And in the 40 millimeter sizing, deciding not to put a ceramic bezel on it. It feels very utilitarian while also feeling premium because they maintain polished center links on the bracelet. There's a great sort of uh fume design to the dial, which a lot of people like I wrote in the article looks very similar to a Nautilus, but it is what it is. You know, for a paragraph or two, I decided to examine the watch design in a vacuum. And just looking at it that way, it's it's a very handsome watch and it's a watch that somebody could conceivably wear every day. And to get even deeper into the decision making that tag made, it's they did this watch both with an automatic movement and a quartz-powered movement. And interestingly, the quartz movement has no date aperture. Which you would think more enthusiasts would prefer the automatic watch in a no date variation, and someone, you know, maybe non enthusiasts would prefer it reverse, I but I think it's kinda funny that it ended up that way. But either way, both look
James Stacy great. Yeah. So you're still getting two hundred meters of water resistance with these. There's like like Danny said, the automatic is about twenty five hundred bucks. The quartz is about eighteen fifty. They come on a metal bracelet. A steel bracelet, sorry. Uh I I think a good looking watch. Uh that it wears well. It wears like a like an everyday nice forty millimeter sports watch. Yeah, and it doesn't wear too heavy either. I mean it wears really nicely. So Any any word on thickness? I didn't see that in in the post.
Logan Baker Eleven and a half millimeters or something like that? Yeah, I was gonna say, yeah, which is thin. It's thin. Okay. I don't know the exact measurement, but I that's what I uh believe it is. Uh I I also uh Danny you brought up uh history for a moment and i think it's worth kind of pausing and and putting out there that tag hoyer has kind of uh existed as tag hoyer for going on 40 years now and hoyer as kind of the maker of wristwatches, Jack Hoyer. You know, that started in 62, 63. That was when the his Jack Hoyer's first Octavia came out, the first Octavia wristwatch. And that was only around for, you know, 15 to 20 years. So while that might be the heyday that as vintage enthusiasts we all love to kind of look back on, there is quite a bit of um in wristwatches, you know, Tag Hoyer is is right there with it in in having history to build on and the aqua racer has been there. You know, it wasn't the aqua racer, it was the professional, the 844, but you can track that evolution over time. And I think this is kind of a cool new look for the Aqua Racer as a um as kind of messing around with uh I think Cole mentioned like the skin diver like kind of esque vibe it's offering that aesthetic uh for a you know in in a slightly different interpretation um for twenty five hundred bucks and and there's nothing wrong with that at the end of the day. No. I think it's cool.
James Stacy I like the brush finish on the bezel a lot, the radial brushing. And the funny thing is is the in the images I couldn't quite understand why the bezel was so octagonal. It it looked a little bit weird, like especially in the lead photo, which is a perfectly nice photo. I just couldn't quite see all the edges. But uh if you if you click the link in the show notes or you check this story out as we're talking about it, scroll down to the wrist shot, it looks a lot more natural on a wrist. It's it it's a nice looking watch for sure. And I'm not always a huge fan of Tag Hoyer. I think um over the years I I had a WAN twenty one ten, which is the forty-one millimeter aqua racer, just before they went to the ceramic and like rubber filled bezels. I really enjoyed that watch. It was a nice size, had a simple but nice looking bracelet, and I think this is a bit of return uh to that form. So uh I I think that covers tag for us. Who who wants to give us a little download on Zenith? There's some some kind of wild Defy stuff from Zenith
Logan Baker , right? Yeah, I'll I'll jump in. I'm kind of been in the Zenith world for the past couple months, I would say. Uh and you know it's it's all about the DeFi right now. Uh last year we saw a bunch of really cool Chronomasters and the Chronomaster Sport, the Chronomaster Original, alongside a lot of um you know revival pieces uh as they've kind of continued to iterate on the A384 design uh and to start 2022 off, we're going all in on the DeFi. And that started with uh probably my favorite watch of the year so far. Uh, you know, we're one month in and I'm already saying favorites, but that would be the DeFi revival A3642, which is a revival of the kind of original DeFi wristwatch, also from 1969. A lot of people don't realize that Zenith was up to more than just the El Primero in 69. They also came out with a really cool line of DeFi wristwatches whose remit was to really kind of challenge um what a sport watch could be. These were water resistant to 300 meters. At the time, the submariner was still only 200 meters water resistant. They had uh mineral crystals. I I believe they were one of the first uh kind of full-on collections to adopt uh a mineral crystal. They had this really interesting elastic suspension system inside that that protected the movement from uh kind of shocks. Um they were the I mean just all around these were very ahead of the time, including in aesthetics. They as I kind of describe in uh one of the stories I wrote it, it's almost like a grenade went off and just kind of sprayed shrapnel everywhere in the form of uh angles and edges and facets and you know, all those, all those words. Um to to end up with this kind of octagonal case shape with a a 14-sided uh bezel. And so we saw the kind of authentic revival of one of those original pieces, the let me look at that again, A3642. U
Danny Milton h I got to see it at at LVMH Tower. And one thing that I didn't realize that Zenith does that no one else does with their revival pieces when they put them on a bracelet is they give them uh bracelet clasps that are as vintage revival-esque as the watch itself. So they give you a stamped clasp, which makes the watch physically much lighter than modern watches. So so much of what a modern watch is on bracelet, the heft a lot of times not just comes from the case, but comes from the bracelet. And I think it's cool that as much attention was paid all the way down to the bracelet to the clasp. So you really feel like you're holding a vintage watch until you turn the watch over and they still give you an exhibition case back, but why wouldn't you if you were Zenith? But still, I think that's just an underrated aspect if someone was ever interested in those watches. Aaron Powell Could I ask you guys a quick question about the
Jack Forster Defy Skyline small seconds? I didn't I haven't had a chance to see any of these in person, unfortunately, but uh what's the deal with
Logan Baker the small seconds display there? So the Defice Skyline builds off of the same movement that was in the Chronomaster Sport, uh and the Chronomaster Original last year, the El Primero 3600, except it's been you know streamlined um out of a chronograph functionality. So what we end up with is a small seconds at nine o'clock that uh does a full rotation every 10 seconds to measure um a tenth of a second, basically. Um and uh it's that second stand is driven off the escapement itself. Um, but it's you know a bit of really cool kind of uh kinetic action, some visual intrigue um to the standard three-handed display. I really like it. I mean some people in the comments were saying, you know, there's not really any inherent functionality to it. And yeah, sure. But you know, like, don't you want to have fun? And that's what it is. It's it's fun. It's authentic. I want to have fun. Thank you. Yeah. That's the the thick boys like to have fun. But uh it's it's fun, it's visually interesting, and I think it's cool. I had it in person um for a couple days after uh the launch and you know it it wears really nicely. I mean if, you go check out my article, that's my wrist. Um it fits my wrist really nicely. And I I think, you know, we saw a lot of people kind of talk about the uh similarity with the the integrated bracelet to our other anniversary baby this week, the um the Royal Oak. And yeah, you're gonna see that comparison with anything with an integrated bracelet these days. But the DeFi is 1969, the Royal Oak is 1972. So Zenith actually has that heritage three years prior to the Royal Oak. So yes, there are similarities in aesthetic to the Royal Oak. And yes, uh Zenith is clearly, you know, trying to produce a contender in that segment. You can't deny that. And that's totally fine. Um, but it also has real heritage that Zenith built off of from that ACEX342 uh revival That they had launched just one week prior. And that was a strategic plan to show that they have the history. And then a week later follow with a very modern retelling of that history with a modern version of the El Primero, a modern version of the Defy case design. The original had a 14-sided bezel, the Skyline has a 12-sided bezel. Again, that was uh about portions, but it's it's a really kind of small the there was a lot of effort put into that watch. Um there was a lot of thought from a design perspective, from an engineering perspective. And I I I really liked it. If I had um you know eight K to spend, I I would probably uh end up with uh one of the versions. Um I the the white one is pretty cool in person with the green rubber stra
James Stacy p. It it it has a cool look to it. It's definitely something I'd like to see in person at some point because you know it's I think that's a tough one just to take based on uh photographs alone. Uh but it's certainly a good looking thing and not the only one um from Zenith, but I you know it's also not our only kind of new entry into the world of uh an integrated uh you know bracelet from uh LVMH brand. We also have the new Hublow Big Bang Integral at 40 millimeters. I I think this is a good looking watch. Uh it's still very Hublow while try while you know jumping in the same sort of river as uh as the Royal Oak and the Nautilus and and all those sorts of things. What would you guys think of this? You know it's only nine point two five millimeters thick. You have yellow gold, titanium, ceramic. Eighteen grand puts it I think that's right around the starting point, maybe a little bit under the starting point for uh a forty-two millimeter big bang in titanium. At least uh maybe those are a little over twenty now, but uh I I think this is a kind of a cool looking thing and and I don't I don't know. N
Danny Milton ot to take this off topic, but to your point about Hublow being reserved and not to veer away from the integral for a moment, but I'm going to anyway because I'm on the mic. There is the 42mm classic fusion chrono in yellow gold that also came out, and since we're recording this on a Thursday, this will be out on a Monday. Today, Thursday, I have a hands-on dropping on the yell a yellow gold forty-two millimeter um classic fusion. And to me, when Logan and I were both in the room, and Logan can speak to this, we were looking at Hublos full selection and my eyes just kind of lasered in on that watch because to me it's the most reserved Hueblo. It's matte black dial yellow gold case rubber strap, which looks like kind of the original Hubleau from 1980. Essentially it's as close as you can get, besides from being a chronograph. But if I were to have picked two watches in that room, it probably would have been that one and the yellow gold integral. Because they both kind of scratch similar itches where one has sort of a high concept dial design, however, wearability is just like it's fantastic, and the bracelet's different than what you'd find on other watches. One thing I noticed with the Integral, which Logan and I kinda talked about, is the way that they finish the bracelet gives you this sort of visual look that it's not of the same hue of gold as the case, and that bothered me a little bit when I was looking at it. It's something you can only really see, I think, in person. I don't know if it really translates to the photographs. But I had this I had the same it's it's almost like the top of each link is like a high polish. And because of that, it gives off the appearance that it's a to like almost a darker hue, a darker shade of gold or a darker shade of titanium than the case, depending on which model you're looking at. I d yeah. I mean I I I dig it I haven't seen the
James Stacy um the uh classic fusion, uh, but I look forward to your story. I think those are interesting watches with a cool history that did kind of shake things up when um when Crocod put them out back in back in the day. And I I've been a longtime fan of the forty-two millimeter big bang in uh in titanium on a on a rubber strap. It's like a nice sporty watch with a cool movement that you know doesn't quite have the same baggage as uh a Patek or a Royal Oak or something like that. It's a little bit more useful, it's a little bit more fun. So I really like um uh this direction and and it's another one that I I'd be really keen to see in person. Uh the definitely the titanium or the yellow gold for me. Uh whereas the the ceramic is uh very limited so probably not something I would I would get to see. Jack, I got a question for you. Shoot. What's an OctoRoma blue carrion turbion and why is it $317,000? Well
Jack Forster , funny you should ask, it is uh a Bulgarie watch in an octo case, an octoroma case. And um it's blue. Mm-hmm. Very blue. Very blue. And it is uh carry on turbion, which means it chimes on three gongs instead of two. And uh why it's three hundred and seventy thousand dollars is a really interesting question. Pricing is uh always kind of a funny thing for watch brands to figure out. You know, you sort of you sort of assess what the market will bear. I mean there's not that many carry-on turbines around and they're all you know, six figure watches. And then you uh sort of assess how much of a premium people are willing to pay for things like precious metals, precious stones if you have them, lots and lots of visible traditional high end finishing. Right. And then you just sort of figure out what you can get away with
James Stacy . I mean everybody in that works in our industry has has made this uh this little quip, but I do wonder how they came up with 317, not three fifteen, not three twenty, not three forty. Like they sat in a meeting and they're like, I don't think we can do this for a penny less than three seventeen. Yeah, it's gonna be three seventeen. I mean, what happens
Jack Forster . I mean, sometimes you see these weird numbers, you know, for US pricing and it's because they're just doing a straight currency conversion from um you know, a more sort of like aesthetically pleasing rounded off number in the Swiss francs. It's it's a very specific kind of watch, you know I mean you have to want a traditionally finished carry-on turbiban wristwatch that's in the sort of like hypermodernist case, but my favorite thing about that story was somebody somebody said in the comments, What did that poor movement do to deserve to be put behind bars? And somebody else replied in all caps, a crime of passion. an an endless source of entertainment for sure. L VMH br brands to the you know sort of uh King Ludwig's folly of the
James Stacy uh of the carry on turbion. So it's uh Yeah, I figured I figured we would leave the the LVMH garden at its most lofty side, which is with this uh fairly incr uh very incredible uh Octoromo. But when I see a watch and and it's got certain words in its title, you go like, Well, that's gonna be a big number. But I wasn't quite expecting well over a quarter million dollars. I didn't get this out of the out of the story. How many are they making? U
Jack Forster h it's a limited edition of thirty pieces worldwide. So put your put your put your name in now. The other thing that Bulgari did that um that I thought was really fantastic were the new serpenti misterios. So I left it off the list because I didn't try and pronounce that. So I appreciate it. I definitely appreciate it. Yeah, yeah, the the the new micro mechanical movement is really fantastic. You I mean, nine times out of ten nowadays you see a quartz movement in a in a high jewelry watch. So, you know, good on good on them for making that teeny tiny move. Piccolissimo. One of the best parts about uh Bulgary putting out uh watches like this is uh you get to see uh Fabrizio Buonamassis uh S Stigliano I mean his beard is perfect, his suit is perfect, and not like in a sort of like suffocating, straight-laced way. He's just like sssss the super stylish Italian guy.
James Stacy Better him than me for sure. Absolutely. I do think that we should we should get into the other side of kind of the big news from last week. Turns out the Royal Oak turned fifty, none of us realized this was coming up so quickly. AP is not going to miss a chance to make a big deal out of this. It is a big deal. This is a genuinely like iconic kind of game-changing watch, uh, that kind of defies its own history in many ways, the fact that it's this popular now and they could barely sell it when they first put it out. There's there's all sorts of great stuff to read about the Royal Oak. There's a ton of coverage on the site, including a really good look back at um kind of a good history lesson in kind of the background of this watch, why it's important, uh, that sort of thing. But I mean, we've got maybe a half hour left. So we should probably start with the new 16202. It's probably one of the biggest biggest announcements of the year, right? We have uh the first new reference for the jumbo, the kind of core of the royal oak at 39 millimeters, the first new one in 22 years. It's still the same thickness, still no seconds hand. We have a return of that uh a very specific blue that they use back in nineteen seventy-two, uh now done via a slightly different process. But I I don't like, I mean, the the fact that there's a new jumbo is one thing. The fact that we have a jumbo that uses a new movement is kind of that's huge, right?, J
Jack Forster ack Yeah, I mean I think Ben really summed it up well. Like one I mean, one of the most amazing things about the 16202 is that it has exactly the same dimensions as uh as the outgoing jumbo model. So the aesthetic the the sort of wearing experience, you know, what kind of what you get out of it when you have it on the wrist, that hasn't changed at all. Um I gotta admit, I mean I said this in another story, um, but uh, you know, I'm I'm really kind of grieving for the 21-21. Um it's been around since 1967. It's just a gorgeous piece of, you know, like classic high-end ultra-thin Swiss automatic watchmaking. And it was also really starting to show its age. So like, I mean, I I you you you you really can't fault AP for producing look, the new movement is I'm sure it's easier to produce. It's gotta be easier to service. I mean the twenty one twenty one was notoriously fussy to service. I'm sure that it's four hertz. Yeah. I'm sure that it's uh it keeps time better, I'm sure that it uh runs more reliably. It probably uses like a quarter the number of screws, different size screws that the twenty one twenty one uses, you know. So it's like a highly rationalized movement, but I still I'm gonna miss the twenty one twenty one. It was so
James Stacy pretty. I mean, you know, there's a lot of twenty-one twenty-one's out there, all things considered. The new movement is called the 7121. Like I mentioned, it's a four hertz movement. We get fifty-five hours of power reserve, which is up from the twenty-one twenty one and I I didn't know this as I'm you know have yet to reach a point in my life where I own and you know daily wear or frequently wear a royal oak, but twenty one twenty one, no quick set date. So you've got the date now on the 7121 and and I gotta think for like Ben mentioned this in in his write up but I I I I gotta say like that's probably a bigger deal to AP people than someone in my perspective would understand. That that that's a big jump forward to go from no quick set to quick set. Gosh, it's 2022, so better late than never
Logan Baker . Yep, better very late for sure. One of the big things in that that switch from the original movement to the new one is it it transitions from being roller
Jack Forster Yes. So the the twenty one twenty one, in in order to keep it flat, they actually uh the rotor is is actually running on three Ruby rollers at its periphery. You know, I mean this is like one of the things that made it like super, super fussy to work on and uh very, very expensive to construct. But you know, it's what the market wanted back in 1967. Georges Gollet, you know, said later that uh his you know his company was getting uh a lot of flack because they weren't producing flat enough watches and their customers were starting to to say, you know, like why is a company famous for producing extra flat watches? Why don't you have an extra flat automatic? So it's like it's um yeah, it's uh it was it was ingenious, but it's um a little I especially given modern manuf high precision manufacturing, it'
Logan Baker s a little bit of a Rube Goldberg solution. I can just imagine those little ball bearings just running c constantly as you wear it throughout the day would definitely kind of cre
Jack Forster ate But with the you know, once you start getting that, you know, 3.05 millimeters um for the version with the date quiche, that's super, super unforgiving. And they're they're just I mean from what I've heard, I've never worked on one myself, um, and probably never will, but from what I hear, you
James Stacy really have to know your way around that movement to work on it. Well the new one starting at thirty three thousand two hundred, that's going to be your steel with the blue dial, the the new sixteen two oh two ST. And then it looks like our pricing uh on the gold ones, we've got seventy thousand five hundred. Sure, why not? And then if you if you're keen on the platinum with the really gorgeous uh green dial, then that one you've got to call your dealer to ask them about. And then uh along with the new jumbo, we also got a jumbo extra thin open worked. So you can check that one out. Uh you know, similar concept, but it's the open work sort of thing from from AP. Their skeletonization is uh you know well documented. We also got uh then a uh flying turbion version of uh of the royal oak i i think a really really good looking uh watch i'm not a huge turbine fan but i do think it's pr it's pretty cool and then they did likewise uh an open worked version of the flying turbine. So there's a another one for you to check out if you want to get we're ratcheting up in levels of uh kind of fanciness and complexity at this point. I am gonna save uh the the thirty seven millimeter because I think there's a fun uh conversation there. Uh as we make the climb the peak of the fanciness, we get to the the the one additional Royal Oak offshore kind of reference packages that they offered up for uh the fifty uh during during this whole 50th anniversary push uh is a diamond set uh version. Uh Jack, would you you wrote this one up for us? Uh it it's so strange. I mean, it it makes a lot of sense because I think we've seen people do this with Royal Oak Offshores in a in a secondhand, you know, a third party way. Uh but it's still for me very striking. And not necessarily in like a oh there's a bit of a pearl clutch to see the the Royal Oak then just
Jack Forster Oh yeah, those those offshores. I don't know. Danny Logan, did you have like I had an immediate sort of like visceral mingled joy and devastating grief at the utter absurdity of the world when I looked at them. But I was kind of wondering what you
Danny Milton guys thought. I knew only you could write the story, Jack. I'll put it that way. Only you could have contextualized it properly, only you could have put that out to the world in a way that I I
Jack Forster I I wouldn't even know how to do it. I mean like what are you gonna do? It's like I oh please go review these like probably half million I mean I'm sure that the one the gemset one on the bracelet is like three quarters of a million or something For sure. You know what? I don't know. I don't know. I could ask. I don't. You know, but I don't know. And I don't I kind of don't want to know. Like what do you you know, you're you're a reviewer. It's like review re reviewing that is like it's like it's like trying to review Queen Elizabeth. You know, I mean you're t- it's like it's it's an unreviewable manifestation of a universe that touches yo
James Stacy urs at no point whatsoever. You know what? I think that's a good enough follow-up for that watch. Uh uh I'm okay with that. Let's let's bring it back down to a somewhat more normal level. Uh, Danny, you covered the new thirty-seven millimeter rollouts and these are you know, a lot of people kind of saying like, oh, these might be kind of the sleepers, um, especially if you've been down the jumbo path or uh or have several times or maybe have a jumbo already, something like that. Well what do you think of these? There's a bunch of little tweaks here that make it kind of more than the sum of its parts
Danny Milton . Yeah, it w it on its face is not much happened, but in reality a lot happened that's different about this watch, especially aesthetically. I think first of all, we haven't talked about the fiftieth anniversary engraving on the rotor that we've already sort of mentioned a few times, which is gracing uh a lot of these watches and I think a bunch of us aren't necessarily a fan of the design choice made uh there. Um luckily my understanding is these will only be on these pieces for the duration of this year, you know, for the celebration. Makes sense, yeah. No, the 37mm for me is is absolutely the sleeper because it is at that's a size that is wearable for a whole bunch of people, myself included, especially for a a case and a bracelet design that it's not necessarily overly large, but it's quite broad. You know, it takes a a good sort of a lot of real estate on your wrist. And I think 37 millimeters is a bit more under the radar. That's not to say that these will be any more available than any other AP Royal Oak that's for sale. I've spoken to a lot of collectors and friends of mine who have a relationship with AP boutiques and have already called in and kind of been given the like no way. These are already spoken, they're already spoken for. Um, which is ups which is sad. But getting to the watch itself, basically, AP made the 37mm Royal Oak the minimalist Royal Oak. Basically all the dial text is gone. There's no printed text in the dial, period. Um they've refashioned the Otomar PK word mark um in a in gold uh and applied it so there's no ap there's no automatic it's just automarp gay and that's actually that design is not new for ap it actually was first done on the code 1159. And so I find it interesting that this watch, you know, we've of all sort of wondered what the code 1159 kind of means to AP as sort of the first time it's launched something entirely new in a in a very long time and put a lot of energy behind that, but this is sort of a bridge, uh design consistency across two very different types of watches. I think this watch will appeal to the watch buyer who, you know, is a uh a two liner for submariners as opposed to, you know, a four liner, you know, if you know what I mean. It's like this is the the quintessential kind of simplistic version of the watch in a very wearable size. They've done a great job even bringing back you were talking about the the blue dial earlier, James, that's been brought back for the jumbo, and that's being brought into the 37mm as well. So when you look at it at first glance, you feel like you're looking at a classic royal oak, and I think I'm at thirty-seven millimeters. Just that dang seconds hand. I know. Then then then you got that second hand to distract you. But I think it's still it still works. I think all the colors that are being offered here, there's a uh a gray dial, a light blue dial, the classic blue, then you've got the two tone is kind of killer, to be honest
Jack Forster . I actually I like the two tone. I thought I think that's a sharp looking watch. You know, also there's I mean, uh as as far as the size goes, you know, the Royal Oak mid-size uh watches were I think 36, 37 millimeters, you know, back in the day, also with center seconds, um and using a JLC caliber with a date window, but with the AP logo and uh automatic at the bottom. And you know, like the the only thing that I've heard is a sort of a you know design complaint in the comments was if you know some people feel like the bottom of the dial looks a little bit empty. Although, I don't know, like putting in the word automatic in 2022. I mean that's that's a d you know, it's it's it's a design decision at this point rather than uh something that's
Danny Milton gonna attract eyes in a showroom window, I guess. And Jack, what are your thoughts on the the movement? I know it's being sort of touted as a brand new movement. You and I have talked offline Yeah.
Jack Forster I mean I you know, it's a um the the movement in the thirty-seven millimeters is uh it's it's not an in-house movement. It's based on a uh a Voshe caliber. Um but it's uh it's you know a sturdy, reliable, um easy to service movement. And you know, I mean, as much as I get hung up on movements and hung up on watchmaking, I don't think that I I think that people who buy luxury sports watches in I mean, regardless of the metal, I think they're probably more concerned with the aesthetics and the wearing experience than they are with um, you know, sort of the the nic
James Stacy eties of the movement. And it's the Swiss, right? Like if it's if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Like if the if the previous was working correctly and and they've already made this huge change to the yeah, new movement in the jumbo, like that's gotta be a big move for a brand the size of of A P to begin with. You know, p I think people see their market value as one thing, but they they're not a huge brand in terms of their actual scale. Yeah. And they're independent. So a new movement's a big lift. Yeah
Jack Forster . It's uh I mean, um like I said that I think it's uh the the seventy one twenty one is less expensive to produce. That's uh you know, you that's after you've amortized the development and retooling costs across a couple couple of years of sales. Yeah. But you know, AP is doing well. In the uh presentation that they that uh Francois Benamius gave, he said they did one point I think it was uh one point f bilivelion in turnover last year and they sold fifty thousand watches. A little bit less than fifty thousand because they lost two months of production at the beginning of the pandemic. But um he says they're not planning on making more than, you know, maybe a little bit more than fifty thousand this year, but that's about where the ceiling is for them. Um and so what they have now, you know, the 2121 was really not a movement that you could deploy widely across your um, you know, production. Um the 7121 is. And um it doesn't take away anything from the wearing experience of the jumbo or the aesthetics of the jumbo to use that movement in other watches, which is definitely something you couldn't do with the 2121. And so, you know, I think it's the same with the with the movement in the 37 millimeter. It's just um you know it's it's what people kind of want, need and expect in um you know a luxury sports watch these days. It's really more I mean, yes, sure it would be great if AP was you know doing everything in-house, but like, you know, why go to the expense if that's not what the market is asking for and if you have a perfectly reliable movement from a partner you've worked with for many years
Danny Milton . Yeah I I agree. I also think you know I would love to be able to see all of these in person and and maybe we will at some point, I'm not sure because I'd love to be able to Because there's a lot in the press materials about other slight modifications made to the ergonomics of the case. Also of the bracelet. I think they are talking about both from a finishing standpoint creating um more of a perception of a thinner bracelet, but also making it lighter, and I think the taper's a little more dramatic, and I think all of those things, especially in a watch at a 37mm size, you you want it to feel sort of light and you want it to kind of disappear on your wrist and and I I appreciate the fact at least from a public relations standpoint that that's what's being said, but I would love to be able to see the watch.
James Stacy Yeah, it's an interesting time for AP because uh like Jack said, the the business is is thriving. There's a huge amount of attention around these watches, but they make so fewer watches than you might expect. You know, uh Rolex could be a million watches, maybe even more than that. Uh maybe not with what happened with the supply chain over the last couple years, but that was their pace, certainly. And and yet people see these brands as being similar in terms of demand. Imagine if they're facing the same demand, just how much how many fewer watches are actually in the market to supply to people who want them. And this is why I mean, look, we're seeing the hard-to-buy thing with all sorts of brands, all sorts of models, but the OG for this is the Royal Oak, is the jumbo. It's been hard to buy for a long time. Just like the Nautilus, it's been a long time. It's always been something that required a certain level of clientele, a certain connection, a certain level of taste, and a certain preparedness to find it somewhere in the world, right? And I think that's going to continue. I don't think that's going to change. Their demand's going to be huge for these new models. It seems like Royal Oak Heads are in pretty deep on these updates with the new movement and uh and the fact that they kept the size format and proportions the same, which I think is kind of clever because that takes out a big guesswork. This is where I I kind of wanted to end. You guys remembered, you know, over the last couple years, of we've seen uh major Rolex models that change by one millimeter, right? We went up to forty-one millimeter in the sub. And I think the big thing is is what all that did was introduce a bunch of questions into the market where people go like, Well, how does it work compared to the one I have now? And the nice thing for the AP is they kept it the same. So if you've ever if you've had a jumbo on your wrist in the last twenty two years, you know how it fits
Jack Forster . Yeah, you know, it's kind of it's uh I mean yes, they changed the movement, yes that's a big deal to you know, gearheads like me. But uh you know, I mean it's it's nice that they're that they're you know, keeping on playing the hits. If you pay seventy five bucks for a ticket to go see the Rolling Stones, you want to hear jumping Jack Flash, right? Sympathy for the devil, but for sure. Because I'm really
James Stacy I don't know that stuff. For me, I want the gray dial from the rose gold on the yellow gold model, which is very similar to a series two fifty-four oh two in solid gold. Yeah. This is cap Captain Photoshop speaks. I know, right? I I think honestly it would be the steel one with the blue dial because I'm not a big enough rose gold fan to want a rose gold a fully rose gold watch. I love it as a watch that you would wear with a strap 'cause there's some versatility to the color. But I love the yellow gold one, but I don't I'm not in love with that gradient dial. That might change if I saw it in person, where it it's gold that goes to the the smoked edge. Wha what do you figure, Logan? I think the gradient on the yell
Logan Baker ow gold is just sick. I mean normally I'd be all about the the steel, but I think uh they just knocked it out of the park with uh yellow gold one
James Stacy here. Um yeah, I'm gonna have to do that Photoshop, Jack. You're right. I want to see the gray dial on the uh on the yellow one. Yeah, I'm gonna jump on yellow gold train
Jack Forster . You know what I feel like I would do if I actually had the budget f to that that that this was the real decision? I would I would say to myself, no no you gotta get the steel. Come on, what the hell's the matter with you? Like steel is it's like that's the pure blood of the royal oak. This is like ro Royal Oak was made to be seed in steel. And then I would buy it and I would put it on and be like you you stupid, stupid, stupid doing what you think you should do instead of what your heart tells you to do more on. Why didn't you get the yellow gold
James Stacy ? It's really I mean they're so fun in gold. I I I know that a lot of people roll their eyes at the Royal Oak in general if you haven't had had been able to try one on or or they're such such expensive things and they're you know, the class of a of Eblon good, et cetera, et cetera. But if you ever get the opportunity, I'm not saying buy one, but if you get the opportunity to put a solid gold one on your wrist, do it. They're so much fun. They are it's a it's a million smiles sort of watch.
Jack Forster You do kind of feel like Luke Skywalker heading for the Death Star when you put on a Gold Royal oak. And uh um I'm I I agree with uh Danny and Logan man. I think that I think that's the the dial on this on the yellow gold one is just like
James Stacy ah it's so sweet. There's no more casual way to become immediately imperious
Jack Forster I mean, I I love my yellow gold day date. I you know, I I waited five decades to get one, finally. Um but I feel like a fantastic watch. Yeah. But I feel like the like a a yellow gold royal oak is almost more a Rolex day date than a Rolex Day date. Yes
James Stacy . That's a funny I like that point. Yeah, for sure. They're they're just these watches are really fun and they wear in such a specific way. It's a s singular experience in the watch world.
Jack Forster Yeah. I mean, I mean I I I admire the platinum model with the green dial like a lot, but I don't know. I feel like I can like I I feel I feel like the gold one is like still like a tiny bit relatable, but the platinum one would just be like you know it would be like it would be like getting into a uh black car in the 1980s and you realize that Princess Diana's sitting next to you, you're like, whoops sorry. Not my car. I don't belong here. I don't belong here
James Stacy . Well hey, on that bombshell, from uh black cars in the eighties to you know fifty years of the royal oak, it's uh it's been a a fun episode. It's a lot of new watches and uh and some of this we rambled on and that that's what I kinda like to do. It's a nice way to kind of digest and and let your brain kind of steep in in just how much came out uh last week. Uh so if you missed any of these stories, I highly recommend you swing by the site and check them out and get up to date and get into the comments. Some of these stories got people really riled up, which I I love. You know, in many ways you couldn't you couldn't kind of release a wash that's instantly hotter. Um maybe maybe that Patek, you know, with the Tiffany dial. But like a the 16202 will be a major uh release for the entire year. So I think it's worth getting up to speed and uh and seeing how this develops. I of course am interested to see where this goes in terms of uh more complicated models. I've you know a a long-standing fondness for uh QP uh Royal Oaks and I think that'll be uh fun development to see as that uh as that becomes available over the next little while. But guys, Jack, Logan, Danny, thanks so much for coming on the show. It was a treat. Thanks, James. Thanks, guys. Thank you, James. Thanks, guys. And if you're listening and enjoying, all we ask is that you tell a friend. And if you're got some feedback, let us know in the comments. Otherwise, we'll chat to you in about a week's time. Thanks so much for listening.