Making Sense Of The Tiffany Patek Philippe 5711 With Ben Clymer¶
Published on Tue, 14 Dec 2021 13:00:00 +0000
Ben, Jon, and Logan discuss the swan song of the haute and hyped 5711.
Synopsis¶
This episode of Hodinkee Radio, hosted by James Stacy, features an in-depth discussion about the Patek Philippe 5711 Nautilus in Tiffany Blue—a 170-piece limited edition that marked the final iteration of the iconic 5711 reference. The episode focuses particularly on the single example that sold at Phillips auction for $6.5 million, with all proceeds going to The Nature Conservancy.
Ben Clymer provides crucial historical context, explaining how the Nautilus evolved from an available watch that sat in cases with discounts in the mid-2010s to become the poster child for the explosion in demand for steel sports watches from luxury manufacturers. He recounts purchasing his own 5711R from Tiffany around 2014-15 and receiving offers of seven to eight times what he paid. The conversation explores how steel watches became the ultimate flex in modern collecting, driven by Instagram culture and changing tastes.
Logan Baker, who attended the Phillips auction in person, describes the surprisingly procedural atmosphere when the watch sold, noting that Alexandre Arnault from LVMH was present and fist-pumped when bidding passed five million dollars. The watch attracted over 350 registered online bidders—more than any single lot in Phillips' history, including the Paul Newman Daytona. The panel discusses the significance of Patek gifting these watches to Tiffany following LVMH's acquisition, with Thierry Stern openly acknowledging it as both a "fantastic" and "poisonous" gift due to the allocation challenges.
The group addresses criticism and speculation surrounding the sale, emphasizing that charity auction results should be viewed differently than regular sales, and debunking theories about money laundering given the robust anti-money laundering protocols at major auction houses. They also discuss what this means for the broader collecting community, comparing it to other concerning market trends like a Rolex Hulk selling for $95,000. The episode concludes with speculation about what might replace the 5711, with consensus that titanium construction and a thinner profile with micro-adjustment clasp would be welcome improvements.
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Transcript¶
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| James Stacy | This episode of Hodinki Radio is proudly brought to you by Accutron and the SpaceView 2020 60th Anniversary Limited Edition. With 60 pieces being made in 18 karat gold, this is a huge anniversary for a game-changing watch, so stay tuned later in the show for more on the brand's iconic space view timepiece or visit AccutronWatch.com. Hi, it's me, James Stacy, and when I say the Patek Fleet 5711, I'm gonna assume most of you have some sort of a reaction. This Nautilus has become nothing short of a touch point in the rapid rise in demand for exclusive stainless steel sports watches from a group of high-end luxury manufacturers. Long a difficult watch to buy, the 5711 all but defines the situation today as weightless and gray market dealers scramble to keep up with and, in some cases cash in on, demand for a product that Patek recently decided to discontinue. Despite not wanting to have the 5711 define all that is Patek, the final reference was recently announced via a limited 170 unit run made for Tiffany and Co. And I'm sure most of you have been following this story as the watch was announced and then just days later the only publicly available example went for auction at Phillips and sold for a proper boatload of cash in support of charity. As with any big and divisive story, my goal here is to develop some sense of context that should help to inform the widest possible perspective for those who wish to truly be in the know. As I am neither a Tiffany VIP and nor really little more than a hopeful future Patek owner, I've asked Ben Klymer to join me, along with Logan and John, both of whom who've covered this expanding story, to take a closer look at this seemingly important watch and what it means to protect, to watch media and watch collecting, you know, as a whole. All right, Ben, Logan, John, thanks so much for coming back on the show. I think this is going to be a fun one. How's everyone doing? Doing okay. Exciting times here in New York City. Doing well, man. Thanks. Yeah, happy to be here. Happy to be here. All right, Ben. I'm I'm curious to know uh to establish some context about the fifty seven eleven, about the Nautilus. Uh obviously it's become this poster child for like a really hot, really hard to get watch, the unobtanium, etc. But that's not necessarily how it's always been surrounding this watch. What how has the last say decade or whatever changed the context of this watch? Yeah, I mean, I think the the Naut |
| Ben Clymer | ilus has been in this in the Patek collection since what nineteen seventy-six? And I think for the majority of those years, I mean, after its introduction, when it was, you know, kind of the follow-up to the Royal Oak, it really every way. I mean, as if you go back to our talking watches with Jean-Claude Beaver, he says, you know, when Pete did that it didn't feel very nice because it was really, you know, the same watch by the same designer using the same movement just a few years later. Um, it was really just kind of a watch that was there, and like in in my kind of like formative years as a collector and someone who really followed the market, the 5711, you know, which was introduced in the mid-2000s, was really an homage to the watch that really mattered to us geeks, which was the, you know, the original watch, the the, you know, the original, the 3700. And I think for so many years it was really just kind of like this weird off kind of like off-kilter 1970s kind of throwback thing in the same way that the Royal Oak was. And those watch just kind of come up and they they they live and breathe together. I should say they live and die together. And you know, I think back to you know for the longest time when like that watch was really, really available and so much so that like discounts were prevalent. And and as I've said many times, like when I bought my 5711R, you know, in say like 2014, 15, like it was sitting in the case. And by the way, mine is Tiffany signed. I bought this from the Tiffany dealer in New York. I have since been offered seven or eight times what I paid for that watch at retail recently. And I said no for the record. And I think it's just like it's really important to remember and the same is true for the Royal Oak, as we've talked about before, like this was not a big deal. And it's, you know, it is weird to see them going for what they are now. I'm not going to say it's right or wrong, but like this this was not the watch that mattered. I mean, if you think back to like say, I'm going to say 2012, 13, which is when kind of like I started to come around really in terms of understanding the market. Like the 5970, that was the watch you wanted. Like the 5711 was like, sure, I'll take that. It was literally like the least expensive watch you could buy with the exception of the Cala Travis. And nobody cared. Like if you had a 5970, like that's that's how you knew you were the man, you know? And those used to be selling above retail, you know, and those were expensive watches. Those are perpetual calendar carnagraphs. And the 5711 was just kind of this weird thing off to the side that really appealed to frankly, people like me, like William Messina, you know, DePaul Boutros, like kind of the geeks that were that really kind of paid attention to the history of of the tech belief. And it was weird. And to you know, to see where it is now, I mean, it's |
| James Stacy | just shocking, truly. Right. So then I I guess if you're saying with your R is a fourteen or fifteen purchase and since then we've seen this heat, I don't think w you can at you can tie it to to one thing that happened in the market, but it's riding the same wave as what's happened to the Royal Oak and what's happened to kind of a lot of steel integrated sports watches. At this point it's not so much a bubble as much as it's more of just an overriding trend in taste. Where where do you think it necessarily came from? Was it just people it was on the radar long enough for people to get used to it and then it became kind of accepted and special? Yeah. I mean, I think that this idea |
| Ben Clymer | of like steel watches, which was so like, I mean, in in the early days of Budinki and the early days of kind of like the watch internet, like steel watches to the geeks like me and and William and I keep on going back to the two of us because we spent years discussing this was like that was kind of like this this hyper nerdy thing where like as as we all know like Patek Basheron AP the great brands like they did 90% of their watches if, not more, in precious metals. And like you know, us being the cool kids, but oh, we should do like we want to protect in steel, we want a Vashron in steel, you know, we want all this stuff in steel because it's more wearable and it's more chill and like you know, we're cool or whatever. And I think that really, you know, we saw the market respond to that when the steel 1518 sold for whatever it sold for, I forget, like 11 million dollars or something like that. And I think that was the archetype of okay, like that is peak steelness, right? Because you can buy a 1518 yellow for say half a million dollars and that sold for 11 million. We won't even talk about the pink wash that sold this past weekend. And I think that's when people started to realize like steel is a thing. And then you know that with the uptick in uh in Richard Meal in these like casual watches and of course Daytona hype and all the steel role like stuff like people just want steel casual watches now on bracelets. I mean bracelet watches are everything at this point. It it just it's just so many years of as I've said before, kind of modernization of taste, thanks to our pals at Instagram, where like it just becomes like the ultimate flex. And like again, like this movement has been around forever. The case design has moved been around forever. It is a lovely watch. I love my Nautilus. I've loved every single one I've ever owned. But is it worth this type of hype? It it's not. And I don't think the the folks at |
| James Stacy | Patek would say otherwise either. Right. N now we see at kind of in some ways the peak of this hype. We're seeing Patek withdraw. You know, they they put out the green uh version earlier this year, and uh, and obviously to considerable fanfare, there was talk at the time that oh, maybe this is the last one Stern had kind of uh hinted that it wouldn't be. And then of course now we've seen what they're saying is at least directly from Terry Stern, absolutely the last 5711, which are this 170 unit Tiffany piece. And I'm I'm interested in thinking like so if this is the last one, will it take years to decide where it lands against all the others they've made since seventy six in terms of its actual collector appeal outside of the hype, if the hype ever kind of chills out |
| Ben Clymer | ? Yeah, I mean I I think at at the end of the day I, think to me the ultimate 5711, which as I've talked about on this show or elsewhere, is the 5711 P Tiffany sign non-anniversary. Like that's the that's that's one of my greatest watch buying regrets is not going through with that order. You know, there are so few of those. Then I think 5711 P, you know, even the 40th anniversary, although the the logo on the dial is is questionable. And I I think in terms of the standard 5711s, like this is this is a pretty special one. And you know, our friend Jasmine who was on talking watches, tech a holic, has been posting these questions on Instagram. Excuse me, do you think there are more normal 5711 Tiffany signed watches than there are these blue styles, 170 of these blue. I think there probably are, yeah. And I think you know the the hype around this like kind of crazy candy colored blue that is certainly Tiffany blue adds something really special. And then the fact that this watch is available to one retailer is the crazy thing. And I mean to be clear, Patek has done this before. Like Wempe's have their own special editions, Bears have their own special editions. I'm sure the Hourglass has people like that. It's not that crazy to have a retailer specific and watch. It's just crazy that it's a Nautilus at the peak of the attractiveness of the Nautilus. Like had Patek given Tiffany a 5205 or uh even a 5270, it would be a neat thing. And people, people like me would want it as a guy who's only bought modern protects from Tiffany and and as New Yorker, I would certainly want that. Whatever. It's like the the the John Mayer watch that that they did many years ago, the annual calendar. Like that was a hot watch, but it wasn't crazy. Uh but I think the fact that they chose to lean into the the hype of Nautilus right now in the year that LVMH acquired Tiffany for sure. And even Gary says this is kind of a gift to the RNO family for doing this is really remarkable. And I and I do think it's going to be one of the most sought after Nautilus versions. there there is I think the the 5711 P non and uh non-anniversary watch I think is kind of like the the inside baseball like kind of nerdy kind of holy grail and that's the one that I would want probably if I could have any modern iteration of 5711. But yeah, I think this is going to be immensely desirable |
| John (Unknown Last Name) | for for a long, long time to come. Hey, the the 5711 P that you're referring to is the one uh that was only available at the Geneva Salon or is that |
| Ben Clymer | or am I thinking of a different watch? So yeah, I a lot of people thought that, but that that was not actually true. So they were they were available elsewhere. Uh and I in fact had the opportunity, at least I'm told, to to to purchase one many years ago. I mean, like ten plus years, like eight, nine, ten plus years ago. Didn't have the money, didn't really even think about it. You know, it was a hundred thousand dollars for for a Nautilus, which at the time was just crazy. Uh and so I said, okay, cool, like thanks, but no thanks. Uh and you know, I think Tiffany, and if you go on to I think Blue Box Patek or some, you know, one of those Tiffany kind of themed Instagram accounts. Uh you can see one or two out there. So it it was available from other retailers, not just Tiffany, not just the Geneva Salon, but a an exceedingly rare modern iteration of of a Patek for sure. So who knows how many were made, but it's extremely rare. Um, and that is, you know, again, if if I could have any watch from new, that that would be the one. But I do think this with the baby blue dial is is really, really gonna be something that people want the world over because again, there's so many people out there, including some of the folks that that were bidding on the watch at Phillips over the weekend that, you know, you could be one of the tech's biggest clients in Dubai, in Hong Kong, in Singapore, in London, Geneva, whatever. If you are not buying from Tiffany, you really don't have access to this watch. Like you need to be a Tiffany client to have access to this |
| John (Unknown Last Name) | watch. And that is pretty remarkable. You know, I I thought you know, I thought the green kind of stood out, but um this kind of robin eggshell blue, uh just no other I mean it's unmistakable. Talk about like being able to identify a watch from across the |
| James Stacy | room, you know. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah, and availability is gonna be an interesting thing, you know, in as uh in an interview with uh I believe with C N B C he said I had to warn Tiffany and say, listen, this is a fantastic gift. Like Ben said, they gifted these watches to um to Tiffany kind of a as a celebration of the LVMH purchase. And he said, but it's also a poisonous one because you only have a hundred and seventy pieces, you know have to and the choice to, you know, sell it to the final client will be yours. There'll be a hundred and seventy people who will be really happy and the rest will be unhappy. So, you know, he said, I hope it's all to the right people. You know, Stern has an interesting way of being transparent about some of these these strings that attach various products to various other elements within the watch industry. And I thought that this was um not a surprising amount of transparency, but just a very straightforward way of putting it. Like I understand what we've done here. This is how many we've made. We're not gonna make more. This is the last fifty-seven eleven, which will always be something, you know, in the car world, the last of something, whether it's the last of a Ferrari with a stick or it's the last one with carburetors or whatever. Like these these are things that people attach to, collectors, uh, those in the know. So I think that's I don't think that's worth underselling in any way, the fact that it is the going to be the last before they move on to whatever comes next. Uh it it's a fascinating thing. And and I think we saw the the the kind of the first stage of the payoff and and in many ways in support of Ben of what you're saying with what went down at the Phillips auction. And uh uh Logan, you were there. Uh what what was it like uh it was the first lot? Uh a little after ten o'clock they started going. What was that like? I ha you know, I've been to one Phillips one before and certainly not one with this kind of p uh heat |
| Logan Baker | behind it. Yeah. I was in the room with a couple other um Hodinky team members. Uh Danny was there with me, uh Rich on our kind of vintage and pre owned team, and Sean, who was also on the the vintage team. And it it was my I mean, I've been to a number of different auctions. I I was in uh um Geneva last month for the Phillips, Christie's, and OnlyWatch sales. Uh, I've been to Phillips and Christie's sales in New York before. And the vibe in the room, it it didn't feel extra special, if I if I really have to be honest. Like maybe it was because it started first, you know, people hadn't quite woken up yet, but it it it felt like it took a minute for everyone to really get into the fact that this watch is okay, it's it started at twenty K and then it went up to, you know, in in half a million increments up to four million dollars. And it it it took a moment for that to register. I feel like they almost did the like if they had waited, um if it had been lot fifteen or lot, you know, seventeen or something like that, there would have been more kind of energy in the room. But it it really felt like almost procedural to to a certain extent. Um and I don't mean that in any negative sort sort of way. It was just kind of in a a clear contrast to the vibe in Geneva where there was so much kind of energy and good energy. Um it almost felt like with uh, you know, T one or one T, um I forget uh what it was, but it it was almost like they wanted to to get it over with before they could get into the the meat of the the sale. And uh I don't I don't think that's necessarily true. You know, I think everyone was incredibly excited about the watch. And, you know, I I'm not I'm not gonna bash the watch like so many other people have over the past uh week. Uh, because I think there's a number of really interesting elements to it, but I yeah, I feel like they could have made it the heart of the sale instead of kind of the the opening uh appetizer. And they probably couldn't do that because uh um I mean like RL said during the auction if you're watching uh the stream online, he uh he said that they had already printed the or they had already printed the catalog before they even knew that they could include um the slot. So um, you know, that's that must have been in the past two months that it it it just kind of came up and they were like, all right, well, where are we gonna put it? We don't want to put it at the very end, so let's put it at the beginning. Well he uh sorry to interrupt. I mean he said publicly that it it happened 20 days. It happened 20 days before the sale. That's that's remarkable. And I um I was talking with some of the specialists and you know, some of them didn't know it was happening until the day it was announced to all of us. Yeah. You know, some uh some some knew earlier, but some of the other ones, some of the other specialists didn't know until everyone else knew that Phillips was going to be auctioning that off |
| Ben Clymer | . Yeah I I think the other thing that that's worth mentioning is you know Logan and I were were chatting over text during the the sale and you know we were texting I don't know in in the afternoon or something like that on Saturday and I said what's the room like and he sent me a video and the room was like kind of empty. And I think in if if you you do want, know, if you want to get the hype going, make the first lot because as somebody who regularly bids that auction, it's a excuse me, it's a pain in the ass to know when your lot's gonna come up. You have to have your phone and you're you know, like you know you might be out to lunch or at the dinner or whatever. You know, if it's the first lot, the sale begins at ten, it's gonna go off at ten oh five. Like we know that. You know, and I think that that was definitely smart on on their part. So that the maximum hype would be uh achievable. |
| Logan Baker | Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. I just I I feel like I maybe I uh built myself up too much coming from Geneva and and Only Watch, where it was just kind of bang bang bang bang all day to to being in the room on Saturday and Sunday. It it was almost uh very kind of low key to a certain extent. And and that that carried through with even the Tiffany piece, I thought. Like it it never felt like this was actually what everyone was making a b |
| James Stacy | ig deal about online. Yeah, the context for the for this sale would be you know the green 5711, which went at Anticorum, went for about $470,000 you know this past July, that and that's after the the fees. And of course, Logan, I asked you on I think Thursday afternoon or maybe Thursday evening what you thought this was gonna go for. Once I knew you were gonna be there, I was like, Well what's your prediction? You said, you know, between five and six, which ended up being dead on. I mean after um after the fees and such they earned six million five hundred and three thousand five hundred dollars, which is one hundred percent to charity to the nature conservancy. I don't I don't know how to contextualize that. I mean b uh anyone who knows me well knows I'm not a Patek fleep collector to begin with. Um and and I have a uh only functional knowledge of uh of watch auctions stuff. I'm not a bidder. Uh but I do think that there's a piece of that that's hype. There's a piece of it is, you know, obviously it's going to to a charity. And then then there's a side where this is in some way this would be your only swing at getting one with your name on the warranty card, right, Ben? Like there's got to be some added value to that. |
| Ben Clymer | Yeah, I I think so. I mean, I think we saw some some folks bidding in the room that, you know, are not American clients. Um and if you're not a client of Tiffany, uh, you know, the odds of getting it would be slim to none. I think what what was kind of most surprising is that not that the watch was sold online, which it did, it went to an online bidder, which I love to see, obviously. You know, go internet. I believe in you. Uh and you know, I the fact that it went to a New Yorker is is really fascinating. The person bidding was in New York, which means conceivably, they could walk into Tiffany and say, you know what, guys, I'm going to spend two million dollars on diamonds for myself, for my wife, for my mom, sister, daughter, whatever. Can I get that watch now? And like they might say yes. You know what I mean? Like somebody walks in and spends that kind of money. Uh they would probably pay attention and say, okay, you could probably have the watch. But the fact that this bid came from New York is surprising. I would have expected it coming from the Middle East or Asia or somewhere where Tiffany doesn't really have a you know a presence at all. Um so that is that's confounding to me for sure uh that it came from New York because again, unless they were looking for the charitable write-off, which is a real thing, uh, you know, they probably could have spent enough money on something else to been allocate the to be allocated the watch at the price of whatever it is fifty two thousand dollars or something |
| John (Unknown Last Name) | . I I wonder what the you know what this sale means for the company Tiffany, you know, which is, you know, as we've all been talking about, it's a it's a New York-based uh jeweler. It with um you know, it's big uh flagship stores that sell Patek in New York and LA and San Francisco. Um, you know, standing on like, you know, the world stage of of watches uh in this way. I mean, uh granted the the Tiffany stamp has been a big and impressive thing for years and years, going back a long time. But to uh you know make this kind of news with you know the the final version of the um you know the hottest stainless steel watch that there is in the world. Is Tiffany looking like a like a company that could eventually go head to head with a a brand like Cartier, for example I think so. You know, which is much more which is much more international. |
| Ben Clymer | I I think it is. And I think, you know, obviously the the infusion of of capital from Melanie Mage and the acquisition of LVMH, like Tiffany is more relevant than ever before. I mean we saw the Jay-Z and Beyonce campaign, which I thought was really well done. You know, if you follow anybody on Instagram, you see Haley Bieber wearing it all the time. You know, like people that are you know like culturally relevant today are now wearing Tiffany where even a year ago, two years ago, there they really weren't. So this is to me kind of like, you know, I won't call it the exclamation point because I think there probably will be many more examples of this, but this is just further um suggestion or furtherull f for the proof that Tiffany is kind of a global powerhouse. And you know, what would a 5711 sell for if it said Cartier on the dial? Who knows? We're never going to find out. I can promise you that. Unless there was one out there, but it wouldn't be a 5711. You know, I I think it really says a lot. I think you know, LV Mage is a master at what they do and they are putting Tiffany front and center and I I I do think with time it's going to really compete with Cardiet for for sure |
| Logan Baker | . Just speaking of cultural relevance, uh I was talking with some of the Phillips specialists and they said that the 5711 Tiffany had over 350 registered online bidders prior to the sale itself, which is more than they've ever seen on a single lot. Um, which I think is, you know, speaks to the tremendous amount of interest that the watch generated, the the buzz it had, you know, I mean is it is it all hype? But maybe. But you know, there there was a lot of interest and demand out there that Phillips, you know, the the kind of kingmakers of the watch auction world the past five years had never seen that amount. Not with the the Paul Newman Daytona. I mean, the it's it's a very 2021 thing, I think, to have a uh contemporary fifty seven eleven, brand new, fresh to market, uh collaboration, Tiffany on the dial, Tiffany blue color, and and have that be the most uh interest they've ever registered for a single watch lot. I find that crazy. |
| James Stacy | It's time for our ad break, and we're thrilled to once again have Accutron supporting another episode of Hudinky Radio. As we mentioned earlier this fall, Accutron is celebrating a special anniversary this year. 2021 marks the 61st anniversary of Accutron's introduction, and in honor of their 60th birthday, the brand has announced the SpaceView 2020 60th Anniversary Limited Edition. More than half a century on from the original, the SpaceView 2020 takes its name from the open-dial Acutron that inspired a generation of watch lovers to think differently about what a fine timepiece could be. This special edition is limited to just 60 examples cased exclusively in 18 karat yellow gold. The SpaceView 2020 60th Anniversary Limited Edition recreates both the technical and the aesthetic as though Accutron reached all the way back to 1960. Tucked inside that precious case, we find a detailed view of Accutron's innovative electrostatic movement, with a smooth sweeping orange seconds hand set against vibrant green accents that recall the look and feel of the original Accutron SpaceView. American watchmaking tradition and cutting edge technology all wrapped up in a very limited creation, the Space View 2020 60th Anniversary Limited Edition marks a special chapter in Accutron's history. You can learn more in the show notes or by visiting AccutronWatch.com. With a big thanks to Accutron for their continued support, let's get back to the show. run the auction on the Saturday, it it allowed it like this compression, which I think added a lot of heat to the overall uh how quickly people wanted to talk about it, how quickly people wanted to start speculating, myself, other people, the interest level, uh all those things. And I think you know if it had been like it came out we're gonna have one in eight weeks, there there'd be a there there'd be that climb and then decline in attention and then it would they would have to return to this. Yeah. Whereas on this arc they it it was it was literally like hitting the peak and then they sold it, which I just think is a a really strong strategy |
| Ben Clymer | . It it it is and it it it's amazing and I think it's it's kind of funny to see Alexander Arno who you know is is I I believe a VP at Tiffany and obviously a member of the Arno family, but you know shareholders with within LBMH say like I'm not allocating watches. And I think that the idea of somebody of that stature who is such an important person to that group kind of be saying, like, hey guys, like, you know, like don't ask me for help here. Like, I'm not going to. Um is is pretty amazing. And I think like when you start talking to the Tiffany people, some of which I know, obviously, you know, it's my understanding that like, you know, these watches may not be available like it's not like they're gonna drop 169 watches off of the Tiffany store in New York anytime soon I think this is gonna be probably and again this is not coming from anybody official probably gonna be a long slow burn on getting these washes out the door, just like it is with everything. You know, I mean, I think if you I mean they've been making the 5711 for how many years? Like I would expect to see these continue to be delivered for a long time so that you don't see 169 of them on Instagram in the next 30 |
| Logan Baker | days. And uh speaking of Arno, he was in the room for the the sale. He came uh specifically just for for lot T1. And when it hit the five million mark, you could see him uh fist bumping in the the air as it passed five million, which I thought was kind of fun. Um I actually didn't see that. I was in the middle of of typing the article, our coverage that went live, but Rich who was sitting behind me pointed it out after the fact and uh it's that's that that is fun energy. It is. And like, you know, I I |
| Ben Clymer | know Alex a little bit. And like he is a very real watch person, you know, and I think like that as as a watch guy is is pretty pretty amazing. Company that you and your family have invested in and really, you know, really, you know, put a lot of effort towards do that well in partnership with the tech philippe which is which is amazing i think the other thing that was really amazing about that cnbc story james is the fact that like you know there's been all these rumors about lbm and tiffany for, I'm sorry, LVMH and Patek for so many years. Like there's really only one group out there that could probably pay the price in cash anyway to purchase a Patek belief, and that is the, you know, the LVMH group for sure. And the fact that he makes reference to like them being on a Zoom call and him presenting it to him as like you know a celebratory moment is is kind of wild. And it's not kind of wild, but it's really wild. And I think the the idea of of these two brands working together long term is fascinating. And as John, as you said in your introducing post, like, you know, there was a lot of questions in people's minds of if the tech would maintain the Tiffany relationship after they were sold to LBMH. You know, because as as some of you guys may know, in every contract, when you're an authorized dealer, if there's a change of control of that authorized dealer, any brand or strong brands, have the ability to pull out. You know, if it's if you're not dealing with the same kind of parties, you can say, you know what, I'm good. And we've seen that a lot, mostly with Rolex, a little bit with Bitek here in the USA, where if if a a mom and pop door goes to somebody they don't like, they say, nope, we're not going to do that. And so there was a question of if they would continue to work with LBMH. And then we come to find out a few years later that like actually like they're they're they're pretty friendly, uh which is pretty a |
| John (Unknown Last Name) | mazing to think about. Yeah, I mean I would say very friendly, certainly based on the um uh the inscription uh on the case back, right? The L VMH in the year twenty twenty one. I can't think of another watch from the L VMH group itself, you know, whether it's Hublow or Zenith or Tag Ho |
| James Stacy | yer that has that kind of marking on it. Agreed. Yeah, and at the end of the sale, there's one one more thing I wanted to put a peg on because we we got the report of uh the Arno Fist bump, which is a f a fun thing. It was a huge amount of money earned for for uh charity and you know every all the parties involved didn't take a cut in any way. But right when it sold on after the last hammer, Arl said um, you know, that's what watch collecting is all about. And and I'm wondering how that lands uh you know, I'm I'm just never I you know, I don't have any personal context for watch collecting at this level. I I see you know, I see it as a I have to read about it or learn about it directly from Ben or people like that. And and I'm wondering, uh Ben, what do you think this does signify for uh watch collecting? If if anything, maybe it just signifies that the fifty seven eleven is a beloved watch and and nothing more. This result, that's that's what you're asking about? Like this result of the watch? This result, yeah, for sure. And and and kind of are are we we seeing is is it too simple to say that we're kind of seeing the top of the fifty seven eleven or or of the steel protect thing? Obviously this is the end of the fifty seven eleven, but it'll be replaced by something. Yeah, sure. I mean I don't know. Are we gonna see six million dollar costs for uh them in the second secondary market? No, we're we're nowhere near, right? No |
| Ben Clymer | , absolutely not. I mean I I think I was talking to a few guys over the weekend about it, some of which were involved with the bidding, some of which were not, others big collectors like there that's no way. Like this is not, you know, I saw somebody say, Oh, anybody who gets this watch is being given, you know, if you pay 50 grand for it, you're being given six million dollars. Like, no chance, you know, like this was you get caught up in the moment. And speaking to a few of the guys that were involved in the bidding, they were like, Thank God, I didn't win that watch. Like that would have been a tragic mistake, you know? And so yeah, look, I I think you know that Logan and I have briefly chatted about how kind of crazy it is that everyone's hating on it. Like, who cares? You know what I mean? Like, it's just it's just one result of one lot. And all these auctions tell you is how much somebody or really two people are willing to pay for anything on that given moment on that given day. It doesn't mean anything. Is the Nautilus going to continue to drive up a little bit because of this result? Sure. Why not? You know, but it's like this doesn't speak to anything bigger, I don't think. I think it just speaks to the strength of the these brands involved, and of course the market overall. But it doesn't, I don't know. Is this peak nautilus? Yeah, it probably is. I mean, let's hope it doesn't get any crazier than this, but if it does, so be it you know like i think all the guys that have invested so heavily in watches over the past 10 years plus are probably pretty excited to see watches this this you know being in being in the newspaper being on bloomberg and and business insider for for uh you know a lot like this. And again, the thing that has to be said is this money went to charity. If this lot was not for charity, there's no way it would have come close to this. Especially now that we know that it likely went to a New Yorker or an American. That person can write that amount off. And |
| James Stacy | that is a real advantage. Absolutely. And and to fill in the blank, because I saw this a bunch in the in the comments on the the first post that John wrote for the site, the nature conservancy is a US-based accredited land trust. They score an eighty five point three two on charity navigator. They're considered a good place to invest money. They were founded in nineteen fifty one. They now work in seventy nine countries and have protected something like a hundred and nineteen million acres. Certainly more than I've managed to do. Um I'm gonna include a link. Yeah, yeah. Give me some time. Yeah, I'll partner up with Evans at some point. I'll uh I'll I'll include a link to their Wikipedia page into the charity navigator thing. You know, I saw people saying like, oh, is the nature conservancy owned by LVMH? Is it this circular thing? And I was like, no, it's literally just like a functioning charity that seems to be doing like relatively solid work. They had um they had some uh leadership issues in twenty nineteen that they seem to have weathered uh by you know putting in proper CEOs and uh including uh for a while the company was or the the group was run by the your the former U.S. Secretary of the Interior. They're not messing around. So I mean they deal in billions of dollars. So it's not like this is gonna have a huge effect on their book, but they're gonna spend that that money doing something cool to help uh land and waterways throughout the world. So I think that's worth considering. It doesn't have to be ten minutes talking about what it is to be a uh, you know, a charitable organization, but people were asking, and I think it was a fair question, because it is a lot of money and y you know, we see a lot of auctions that are for charity, you know, OnlyWatch comes to mind. And in this case, they operated this like a normal sale with buyers premiums and the rest and all of it went to um went to this charity, which I I think really changes the way I I feel about this watch. Completely. And I think that |
| Ben Clymer | that's a really strong point, James. Then I think also like the this nonsense of like money laundering and blah blah blah. Like if there's one thing that you want to do to like get the attention of the IRS, spend six million dollars on a watch. You know what I mean? Like that is not a right way to launder money for sure. And then be beyond that, I mean the anti-money laundering situation with auction houses is so robust. And as anybody who has ever bid at Phillips in particular, any auction house knows if you're bidding under a company or LLC, Inc. Shell Company, whatever, you then have to validate two Phillips. Who are the shareholders of that company? Like it is not like this idea that like these all all these rich guys are like laundering money through watch auctions and art auctions like has it happened for sure? Is it happening here anymore? Definitely not. You know, it's just not. And I think it it's so easy to assume. I mean the the first kind of trope in this space is that oh, anybody that spends more money than me on a watch is just gonna put it in the safe than never gonna wear. And then once you get past that, maybe you can afford say a hundred thousand dollar watch. You then say, oh, anybody that's spending a million dollars on a watch is just laundering the money. It's like you're just gonna continually to slide the scale and assume the worst of the people that are able to kind of afford more than you. And it's just not reality. And I I think I think that's it. Like the Stearns, like Patek was not bidding on this watch. I don't think Tiffany was bidding on this watch. I think this was just somebody out there in New York that really wanted to spend they they wanted the watch and they were |
| Logan Baker | okay making a huge donation. Uh so yeah, I just wanted to hop in here with uh kind of a few note uh I have an ask out to the nature conservancy to follow up uh and do kind of a report on exactly how they plan to spend the money that they uh earn from Phillips. So, you know, we'll we we will be going deeper in in, you know, instead of just reporting the total, we wanna kinda find out how the Phillips Paddock uh you know LVMH nature conservancy relationship started, where it's going, uh, and why that uh charity itself was chosen. And Ben, just to kind of follow up on what you were saying, uh I I mean these auction houses, they they will literally like they need to know where the money is coming from. It's not a simple way to launder money. Like it that is just not how laundering money works. Um and I I wish more people understood that. That like the auction houses, yes, they do their due diligence. They're not just trying to, you know, be a front, you know, that's it's not a criminal organization, y'all. Like they're I mean, I can't say a hundred percent everything everywhere, but you know, for the everything that I've been around, it's it's handled incredibly, incredibly above board. Um, and then also uh RL's quote that kind of you know caused a bit of a stir with uh this is what watch collecting is all about. I I was able to catch up with him on Sunday after the auction, and I uh we, talked a bit about that. And um he was specifically talking about, you know, the fact that after so long we're finally able to have an in-person auction and that there's two people bidding in the room, passionate collectors bidding, and all the money is going to charity, and that there is so much interest. That's what watch collecting is all about. It's about the passion, it's about doing good, it's about bringing people together. And uh that's something that we really haven't had much of a chance to do, especially here in uh New York. I mean, this was the first uh Phillips live watch auction in New York in two years. Um and that that is really special. And um that that is what he meant by that. He wasn't trying to to make a statement about how, you know he's trying to make all your watches too expensive for you to collect. Like it's that's not what collecting's about. That's not what he's that he he is a passionate collector himself, and that's not what he wants. He he cares about watches at the end of the day. And that's what collecting is about. The for for watches for the better of uh everyone, watches for the better of of you know society. And I think that' |
| James Stacy | s some great context to add for sure. Um I I would like to move on to where I th where we think that the general effect on watch enthusiasm, culture, collecting. And I think the other thing that we've seen a lot in the comments, you know, there's there's two kind of overriding positions, like that that this was this was great because it was uh uh, you know, an an interesting watch being sold for charity and the other side being this more negative view of it saying that this this reflects kind of the worst side of the watch industry, which I don't really buy either in a vacuum, like on its own. Where I am interested is this is this idea of what does this do not only to the fifty seven eleven market, but just to the idea of the secondary market for hard to get watches because that's where, you know, there'll be a hundred and seventy people, I assume they're not gonna want people flipping these. That's gonna be an issue. Yes. Yeah, this is uh this is you know, back in the day, this is a I'm I mean this is a hundred X what it would be like to get a GT3 allocation and then have them have Porsche find out you sold it before you ever took delivery. Like forty, yeah. Yeah they or yeah, yeah. It's an interesting thing. But Ben, where do you think this lands? Does this do you think this is so big and so so much in its own vector that it's not gonna cascade into other things, or are dealers gonna get their hands on these and it's gonna be a whole new kind of generation of that gap between, say, an MSRP or even an adjusted price and then the street price. Yeah. I mean th there's two things I have to say there. First of which |
| Ben Clymer | like let's assume the guy who bought this watch is named Peter James and let's say you met him at a Hoodinky meetup or whatever and he didn't have a watch on at all. In fact, let's say he didn't buy the watch. And I just said, hey, James, this is my friend Peter. You know, he's a philanthropist. He just donated $6.5 million to the Nature Conservancy. How would you how would you view that guy? You'd be like, wow, like that, that's that's incredible. That's so generous, like a man of means like giving that much money back to something that that is really great. I I would imagine you say, like, that's probably a pretty cool guy, would you not? I would. Absolutely. Yeah. Exactly. So like imagine that person just did it and in exchange he got a watch that he really wants. Like, like it's just that simple. It doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't need to be any more complex than that. And then in terms of like, you know, flipping and all that stuff, like I was chatting with some guys the other weekend, like we all kind of came to the conclusion that like these washes on the open market will be worth a around million dollars when they start to do it. Right. And which is bananas. I mean, that is completely insane, no question about it. That is well, let's say it's $50,000. So that's 20x. So yeah, 20x retail, like no matter who you you are, if're a DECA millionaire or a billionaire, if somebody says you can put 50 into this thing and you're gonna get uh a million out of it, like that's a compelling offer, you know, like that is just quick instant return. So there will be people that do that for sure. And I, you know, I've got a friend who kind of helps allocate Richard Neals, etc. And again, no matter who you are, if you can make hundreds of thousands of dollars, you know, but you're going to pay attention for sure. But I just don't think that people that have that relationship with Tiffany are gonna be in that boat. Like it's just not that way. The Tiffany clan is different than other authorized dealers in some ways, in that like it's a very particular type of client that buys from them. You know these people. You have their cell phone numbers. Like some cases you go to dinner with them. It's like look, I if people want to burn the bridge forever or just like let's say they run out of money or they're parents sick or child sick, whatever and you just need the money, sure. And I think people would understand that. But I just don't see people buying this watch to flip it even at that incredible ROI. |
| James Stacy | Yeah and I mean y if you it's funny to think that it's it's uh you know uh 20X because if they sold all of them at list we're talking about about $ milli9on, a little less than $9 million, I guess. And like it's it's crazy, it's crazy to think that in many ways it's the the the theoretical street price for the whole collection is more like $170 million dollars, one hundred and seventy f milliiveon dollars, something like that. And who knows? Who do like this is uh this is more we're entering more just the fun speculative this is what we would do you know in the evening at a if we were able to hang out together and chit chat about this watch. And I I love learning about this stuff in the perspective that I don't have and haven't yet learned, you know, from my own my own trajectory through the watch world. But I I think in many ways the the rise in attention is being ignored by the folks that that want to focus on the fact that it was a very expensive watch that already had kind of um its own sort of infamy for being difficult to buy. And and I think it's worth considering the fact that as certainly let's let's say the four of us here on this call, we work in the watch industry. Fifty thousand dollar watch selling for six and a half million dollars for charity and like Ben said, getting in newspapers and something that people will be talking about in other auction stories for the next several years. That's great for us. That's I I think it's pretty good for Patek too. You know, these guys heard me, you know, lash out against this watch a little bit at the retreat just 'cause I didn't understand it yet. And then I I took some time, I listened to them and and I've I've kind of turned around, especially on this one at auction. I think this is a really impressive thing that that is if we're going to do all these limited editions, this endless world of limited edition, it happens in the car world too. They keep saying that there's not going to be another Pagani Zonda, but if you've got if you've got four million dollars, they'll make you a Zonda with your own initials on it it. And and it's a wild thing to see if this is how we might start to approach really kind of high buzz LEs. Yeah. Yeah. And there there are other wat |
| Ben Clymer | ches that that trade for 10 X, there are other watches that that trade for for many X. Like again, I think this result this is a charity result and charity results have to be viewed separately than than non-charity results like it just is if if this were just some some guy you know or even tiffany or lbmage or whoever like just allocated the first watch to the sale and it went like just to for fun and games. I would have some some negativity and a little some you know some bitterness towards it for sure. But this was a charity result. It just like, it's just a different thing. And it's it's viewed that way by every collector I know from, John Goldberger to RL, to everybody. It's just different. This is a donation. And the person got a watch to to to remind them of it. Like simple as that |
| Logan Baker | . Yeah. And I I mean it's it's it is different. It it's something in like it doesn't affect the any of us really. I mean, it's it's it's just kind of an event that happened. It's a single watch that that sold. You know, we're never are we gonna hear about that watch again? Probably not. Um, maybe we will, but it just I don't think it matters that much in the scheme of things. What what bothers me and and so many people were just like wringing their hands in on social media, on Instagram and the hodinky comments section. And it's just like, come on, y'all. Like it's this is this is fun. This is fluff. Like this is like this is just fun in games. Uh what if if you want to get into like the the spirit of collecting and and get negative, I mean like the there there was a Hulk that went for ninety five thousand dollars. Like that's that's talk let's talk about that. That's weird. That is dumb. Yeah. That's a watch that was that was crazy for a decade. Like that's that's weird, y'all. Like that's much that that makes me feel a lot more uncomfortable than this single Tiffany blue hundred percent jealous dude that that that off |
| Ben Clymer | ends me so much more because it's just like that like that is really impacting people that like are are in the trenches of watch collecting and as you said there's so many of them out they're made for so long and it's like kind of core like that look patek is not normal you know what i mean like i know we talk about patek like this is like okay like it's just like a whatever watch like patek is the highest i mean you know removing the car evil tea land and flip dufour or crivia type stuff like patec is absolute pinnacle of of of watch collecting you know and i i think we tend to normalize how much this stuff costs and how special this stuff is but a patec is and should be treated as something very special. A Rolex is something else entirely. And so that that is why the the Hulk result to me was, you know, a lot crazier and says a lot worse things about the community than uh |
| Logan Baker | than than the charity lot. And the same with like some of the what we've seen with you know a few of these micro brands that have popped up in the past five years, like the Corona Tokyo stuff that's being flipped immediately for five X and going for ten thousand dollars. Like that that feels weird to me. That's a Miyota movement. Like that's not right. Like Furlon Mari, you know, that's it's a nice looking watch, but it's a it's a Mecha Quartz movement, and they're they're being traded for like 4K. Like that's weird. Like we we should be honest and like look at th those things with kind of uh we should roll our eyes at that. Like this one off charity thing is is just it's whatever. You know, I mean it's great. It's great. It's a thing we're gonna talk about and then we'll we'll all move on to the the next big story. |
| James Stacy | All right. So then I think the only place left to go is to look forward. And obviously, if this is the end of the 5711, the rumor mill has already started with the idea of a 6711. And for those of you who haven't read it, I've dug around the rumors. Wasn't the most comfortable trip through the internet. Uh there's a lot of sites I'd never heard of that are covering uh the possibility of a of a Patek. Uh they're saying it's going to be a titanium with a blue dial and platinum with a gray dial up to forty one millimeters. And then there's this weird thing where they're gonna be using the three two four S movement, which is a Calatrava movement, seen in stuff like the fifty-two twenty two A. D i is this just are are we too early in the span and I'll just trim this out of the show. I'm always curious about some rumor stuff, especially when it's a a watch that people clearly feel really strongly about. I don't know if |
| Ben Clymer | we're too early because we can see a new Nautilus tomorrow, as far as we know, you know? But I I just think anybody that has any idea is just blown smoke out their ass. You know, like nobody knows. Like here's the thing, if I don't, you don't know. You know what I mean? Like it's just like just not gonna happen. And I think look, titanium makes sense. I said this somewhere, I forget where recently. But yeah, titanium makes sense because you know there was that whole titanium collection and Cloud Spearhouse them and like, but tech pays attention to stuff. They know like what collectors love. Um and so I I could see that. Uh will it get bigger? Maybe. Uh I mean, who who knows? I mean, you know, I I could I could come up with an idea that would be pretty neat, but like is that what they're planning? Who who knows? And I think anybody on the internet that claims to have insight into that, I think is is it' justs just fly |
| James Stacy | ing. Just go like a good taken for a click or something otherwise. Yeah. It is a lot easier with a brand like them for to wait until they send you the press release. Well yeah I mean it's it's like the |
| Ben Clymer | the thing that that I've always like I've always kind of like laughed at are are my friends at Monochrome who every year do like Rolex predictions. You know that they do like this is what Rolex could do this year. And then like you know 25 people go on to Instagram and tag us and say, did you see what Rolex is doing? And it' |
| James Stacy | I I like that over the years they've changed how clear they are that it's a prediction. It's now like They're just having a nice time and getting excited for like a great event in the watch world. But people definitely took some of it super literally. I was gonna say I I gave up predicting Rolex when they dropped that uh platinum Daytona with the blue dial years back. I was like no I I I don't have the ability. I don't I'm not seeing the math. I d I'm not having that like Zach Galfinakis moment where where all the numbers are swirling around and and I come up with the correct guess. Well it's just like why why play that game first of all? And I |
| Ben Clymer | think like the the the best kind of memory that I have of of anything like that is is uh an ex-colleague of ours, a friend of ours named Mo. Uh his son designed like a a sprite, the the Rolex sprite, which was just like something he like his his like you know kind of young son, I think like sub-10 years old son. Who's eight? Just drew up one day. Yeah. And and we put it on the site because it was super cute and it was super charming. And like people to this day, like yo dude like what's the deal with the sprite when's the sprite coming out and I'm just like I don't think it is I don't think it is. Like I just don't think it is. You know and that's why like it it's so silly to play these kind of like what if g |
| John (Unknown Last Name) | ame. You're only gonna end up disappointed. I was just gonna say is it worth asking ourselves what we might want from a n the next Nautilus though? Like how could the Nautilus be improved in our opinion? What would you what would you want, John? I don't I mean I I guess the the bracelet is a little bit controversial, the the clasp. That could probably something a little bit more modern could be inter |
| James Stacy | esting potentially considered. Yeah, I mean we've seen micro adjust on the lady size Nautilus, I believe. So it'd be interesting to see if that came uh to the new one. Uh conceivably that would make some sense. That would make some sense. Uh new new movement, I think would be a great uh |
| Ben Clymer | update. Yeah I I'm I'm with both of you guys there for sure. I think like new you know micro just class thinner just a little bit thinner. I mean I think that you know the Royal Oak the 15202 is just so wonderful in its in its uh depth um but not always it's not thick by any means but to make it thinner and I think also like going back to what made the tech so special and really all watchmakers of the that ilk in the 50s was ultra-thin watchmaking. We've seen Bulgari do such a great job with it. Like imagine a Bulgari thin movement, but finish like a pet deck. Uh I think and they've got the ability to do micro rotors so well, as as we all know. I think that could be really neat. Um, but you know, |
| James Stacy | if you know if you're out there, Thierry, that's that's what I would love to see. All right. Well, I think that's as good a spot to end as any. I wanna make sure you guys can get on with your uh your evening and get some dinner in you and the rest. Uh look guys, this this has been a treat. Some of it's just shooting into the breeze, just tr trying to feel out the world and and it's a crazy time when we're seeing watches and like this come out and the auctions like this come out, but it's been obviously a big story and something that I'm I'm really glad to have uh all three of your perspectives on. So thanks so much for coming on the show. Thank you, James. Thank you, James. All right. Well, like I always like to say, if you're enjoying the show, please tell a friend. That's all I can ask for. It makes a huge difference. Send the link. Uh let 'em know you're liking it and maybe they can give it a listen. Let us know in the comments if there's something you think we missed, something more you want to chat about, something to include in the next episode. We've got one more episode for this calendar year, and then we're kicking off next year around January tenth with a uh really special surprise guest that I'm uh pretty pumped for. And until then we'll chat to you in about a week's time. Thanks so much for listening. |