Skip to content

Dubai Watch Week

Published on Mon, 6 Dec 2021 12:00:00 +0000

Robin, Jack, and the latest watches from a special show with growing influence.

Synopsis

In this episode of Hodinkee Radio, host James Stacey is joined by Robin Swithinbank and Jack Forster to discuss the 2021 Dubai Watch Week. Robin, who attended the event, provides firsthand insights into what has become an increasingly significant gathering in the watch industry. The biannual event, organized by Ahmed Seddiqi and Sons (the Middle East's largest watch and jewelry retailer), saw attendance grow from 9,000 in 2019 to 16,000 this year, with over 40 brands participating including major players like Rolex, Hublot, and Audemars Piguet.

The conversation explores how Dubai Watch Week differs from traditional Swiss trade shows like Basel World and SIHH, emphasizing its more casual, accessible atmosphere that resembles a large enthusiast gathering rather than a formal industry event. The panelists discuss the shift in the watch industry's trade show landscape, debating whether smaller, more frequent regional events represent the future or if there's still value in large, collective industry gatherings. They lament the loss of physical interaction with watches that the pandemic has caused, while acknowledging the difficulties of massive traditional trade shows.

The episode covers several notable watch releases from the event, including the Oris Big Crown Pointer Date with the Caliber 400 movement, Oris's new rectangular collection, H. Moser & Cie's Heritage Bronze limited edition with Cyrillic lettering, and the unconventional MB&F collaboration with Bulgari featuring large gemstones. Significant discussion focuses on Girard-Perregaux's releases, including enamel-dial Laureato models, with the panelists analyzing the brand's struggle to establish a coherent identity despite its impressive heritage and manufacturing capabilities. The conversation touches on broader themes of brand identity, with comparisons to how companies like Cartier and Vacheron Constantin successfully maintain consistent brand DNA across diverse product lines.

Transcript

Speaker
James Stacey This episode of Hodinki Radio is proudly brought to you by the Hodinky Shop and our impressive collection of the latest and greatest from Zenith watches, including the sporty and historic El Primero Revival G three eighty one limited edition. Stay tuned for more information or visit shop.hodinky dot com to view the entire Zenith collection. Hey, it's me, James Stacey, and today's episode is a bit of FOMO service as a good portion of the watch industry recently converged in the desert for the twenty twenty one I've never been to Dubai Watch Week, or indeed Dubai, and as such I'm quite curious about the event and kind of the general vibe to help fill in the blanks and establish some context for what seems to be an out of the norm show, I've called upon my pal Robins within Bank, who did attend this year and wrote a couple of stories about the goings on for Hodinky. We're also joined by Jack, who has been to Debi Watch Week in past years and always delights as a co-host. Let's get to it. Robin, Jack, welcome back to the show. How are we doing? Good, thank you, James. Good to be here. Doing great. Thank you so much for having us on, James. Oh it's a treat to have both you on, of course. Uh Robin, I guess the last one you were on was for the the Braymont wing chat and and uh the launch of the ENG three hundred and all that. So we're back with uh like actual watch industry news. It's not just a chit chat about death or taxes or you know uh cork uh based uh coffins as Jack and I sometimes get into on the show. Robin, you actually went to Dubai Watchweek. That's kind of the main topic for the the chat today. But how is the show? What what what's uh or maybe we start with what is Dubai Watch Week? Because it's one of these ones that have kind of cropped up in the last few years. And looking at your story, it seems to be growing in both its kind of weight and impact in the industry.
Robin Swithinbank I think so. Uh both in measurable terms and in slightly less measurable terms. I mean, the most measurable term is the number of people who went. It's a biannual event. So the last one was in 2019. They didn't skip a beat for the pandemic. They have a horology forum concept, which is lots of panels, which they do try and take around the world in the intervening years. And obviously that last year that was digital, but the actual physical event in Dubai uh only happens every two years, and so uh the cycle was unbroken. Um there were 16,000 people there this year, which is up from 9,000 two years ago. So that's sort of that's quite significant growth for an event of that size. It's organized and hosted by Ahmed Sadiqi and Sons, which is um the Middle East's biggest uh watch and jewelry retailer. And uh the concept was sort of born as uh an environment for watch lovers to gather in and have pretty open conversations and just sort of behave like a almost like a really large red bar gathering if you like. And it's sort of it had one, two brands involved to start with. Mosa were there. I was talking to Edmond Melin this year at the event, and he was remembering that year one, which I wasn't at, uh, year one was obviously quite a small affair, quite bijou, really. And it's still quite bijou, but uh there were more than 40 brands there this year. Uh, and among their number were were Rolex and Hublow and Odomar Pigay, Tudor had their own booth. And then there's this sort of tent that has really quite small booths, big enough for two or three people to stand on, really very small. Not forget Basel World and the like. It's not on that scale at all. And in that tent, you can you know you can walk up and down it in in 30 seconds if you if you stretch your legs. But uh in the meantime, you'll pass these sort of 30 odd brands who just have a couple of cases and maybe a local representative there. Um it's not a commercial fair. They're not they're not sort of there to sell in theory. I mean obviously sales are happening maybe not transactionally on site, but a lot of the brands will will meet uh punters who come in through the door uh who have uh the entrance is very straightforward. I believe it's just an email um and you get a ticket, uh, very open event in that respect. And if you're walking through that tent and you see what you like, then you will no doubt be encouraged to skip over to the local Sadiqi uh retailer and uh pick up your watch. So there's plenty going on. But um no really the s the spirit of it is about the about the conversations and the the chance encounters and the, as I said in my piece, the not so secret assignations that take place at the event. And those happen in a number of ways, very formally. So there is the Hology Forum, is the biggest venue, and there's a stage with uh a seating for four or five panelists, and I think there were eight, maybe diff10erent panels this year, all looking at themes that are dominating the watch industry at the moment, be that sustainability or how we're collecting or the domination of certain brands or the way cryptocurrency, Bitcoin and NFTs are creeping into the story as well. So quite interesting topics. And then some of it's uh much less formal. It's the lunch at Cipriani, where you see Jean-Fred Dufour sitting next to F.P. Jean just uh chewing the cud. Um quite bizarre, really. I mean, these sort of things I'm sure happen all over the place, but none of us actually see them behind closed doors at Basel World or lost somewhere up in the hills of the Jura Mountains. So Basel World sort of peels back the layers of the onion and uh gives you a little bit more of an insight into uh who the movers and shakers are and and
James Stacey how they operate. And do you think they succeeded in having that sort of red bar feeling? Does it is it that casual? Even even compared to something like uh I mean SIHH was never really casual. There was a lot of security and and uh getting your bag scanned and then rules and uh is is it like that or is it absolutely
Robin Swithinbank I mean that's like going to an airport right I mean it's it's not you know you get sort of padded down on your way in and, then you feel borderline criminal as you enter the world premier luxury watch event. Um, it's no, it's it's very much more informal than that. I mean uh again, as I slightly sarcastically said in my piece, but it really is true, you could storm the barricades with a plastic fork. I mean, there are no barricades really. There is a place where you have to wave a QR code around, which you've received on submitting your email address and registering the for the event. But uh it's very, very it's very light touch, which is great because it feels like a nice place to be
Jack Forster . That uh really very closely parallels the experience that I had when I was there. Of course, part of the reason you could storm the barricades with a plastic fork is because the uh the consequences of attempting to are too horrible to contemplate. That I think is a I mean, I just I I I can't imagine how far you would get um, you know, down the highway outside the Dubai Financial Centre if you tried to walk off with anybody's property, but I I bet it's not very far. I'm sure that's the case.
Robin Swithinbank But I think at the same time, and we shouldn't take too much away from the Sadiqi family who at the same time are are very warm and they're welcome. You're not conscious at all of the uh some of the restrictions that are in place in the in uh in the United Arab Emirates and in Dubai. Alcohol is served on site, for example. So there are obviously a lot of restrictions around alcohol in in Dubai, but um they have a license and they are able to be hospitable as just as we would expect were we in North America or Northern Europe or anywhere else in the world for that matter. So um it's uh it it's a fun place to be. It is.
Jack Forster It's uh and it's sort of a a separate administ the the Dubai Financial Center is sort of a separate administrative district within Dubai that has sort of you know its own set of rules that you know again don'
James Stacey t necessarily apply outside it. Aaron Powell And you know, when you take all of that into account and we're chatting with other people, maybe not even just, you know, CEOs or or you know kind of brand bigwigs, but other people in our line of work, is what's the general vibe, you know, following a pandemic? Are people really excited to be out and doing something and eating some good food and probably drinking some good stuff and seeing some old friends? Or is there still some caution? What what was the what was the kind of feeling? Uh and as ever that thing down bo
Robin Swithinbank ils down to your personal choice, doesn't it really? Um and naturally there were some people who were quite content with a fist bump and not much more, and there were others who were quite prepared to throw their arms open. And I think the general spirit was one of of openness. I think Omicron was only just beginning to come into the conversation 10 days ago, and so uh I would say it was probably the freest I've felt at a watch gathering in best part of well, two years and end of 2019, really. So um, in that respect it it was was uh joyful sounds like a strong word. I and I don't I feel I should be a little bit more cynical in describing it. But uh overall I'd say there was a there was a lightness in the air and people were glad to be there. So do the Sadiqi family had taken precautions to make sure that the horology forum wasn't uh was never going to be overcapacity. So that I'm not sure we can call it social distancing really, but uh there were fewer seats in there than there had been two years ago in order to try and accommodate the fact that some people would want to be a little bit further away from others. But I think if you're going to an event like that and you know there are going to be thousands of people on site, um you've pretty much got over your issues uh with COVID at that point. I will say to your e
Jack Forster arlier point too, Robin. Um the Sadiqi family are wonderful hosts. You really do feel, you know, um personally welcomed when you go there. You actually do feel like you're a guest of the family, and that's in really strong contrast, you know, to what you were talking about, James, the experience that we all used to have at SIHH, which was, you know, very, very high security, very formal. And uh, you know, you've you you felt taken down a peg before you even hit the showroom floor after going through all that security. And and Basel World, which could feel in its busiest years like, you know, just this very, very impersonal, um, almost a rugby scrum of a trade show. And it's it's one one of the nice things about Dubai Watch Week in the past, well, the the the when I went there in 2019 was uh it was relatively small scale. It did feel relatively intimate, and there were all these wonderful opportunities to just sort of um, you know, talk to people. I mean, um Jean Frederic Dufour from Rolex happened to walk by and uh you know we he actually said hello to me and we talked for a little bit and I can't imagine uh that happening anyplace else. Uh I mean I certainly can't imagine it happening at at Basel World or or anywhere in Switzerland
Robin Swithinbank . That's I think that's basically what we're describing, isn't it there's an accessibility about it, which doesn't exist elsewhere. You know, someone like uh Fabrizio Bonoeso Stigliani, who's a very accessible person generally, but you know, he is one of those who loves being there, he loves the openness and he loves just walking about and enjoying those chance encounters. I mean, likewise, I saw Jean-Fred Dufour there two years ago and shook hands with him for the first time since he left Zenith. You know, when he was at Zenith, I used to see him once or twice a year and he's sort of been hidden away, closeted somewhere in uh with the in Geneva or wherever else. And uh uh it was good to see the see the man in in the flesh. And uh I mean it would be lovely, wouldn't it, if we sort of had uh a little bit more access to him uh more broadly and could interview him once once in a while, but uh that's not going to happen anytime soon, I doubt. But to see these people walking around uh was uh was refreshing. It m
James Stacey ade it quite real. You know, we so it's it's something of a more impersonal show. You're getting kind of FaceTime with people that aren't always accessible at a lar maybe not a not only just a larger trade event, but a trade event in within the confines of how the Swiss do things, which is kind of the other main context for these sorts of shows. I want to get into the watches because there's a handful of watches that were announced or kind of leveraged with the show and uh and I'd like to hear a little bit more about the forums. But just before we get to that, I I I am curious where you know the the whole landscape of the the idea of like a Swiss watch trade show has really f not fallen apart, but has had some major shifts in the last few years. Do you think that this is kind of the future or do you think as soon as it makes sense, brands are gonna dive back into a giant you know show that has to have hundreds of thousands of people to make sense? I want to say
Robin Swithinbank uh yes, but I think we haven't had the ultimate test, which is uh essentially the rebirth of Watches and Wonders. I mean last time we went to Watches and Wonders it was SIHH and it was still pretty much as it ever was. There were there were signs they were trying to loosen it up a little bit, but I mean as as we've just described, we were herded in like cattle. Uh I think uh small affairs and more frequent and more global is the future. There's I think there's no question of that now. I doubt all of us will go to the all of them, and particularly in these times when we're all talking much more about sustainability and behaving more responsibly. And I think that's part of it too. People don't want to travel as far and as often. And so uh I think we will uh in in a in a few years time as things have hopefully as things have settled down, we will see high frequency of events in major cities all over the world. That's what the brands want. There are all sorts of conversations happening behind the scenes that I think we're not really privy to among some brands who are at fairs at the moment and some who aren't, because I think brands even those who aren't at fairs do recognize that there is value in being corporate, uh, there is value in meeting together, there is uh the core temperature is is sustained and increased when brands meet together. There's uh there's no question that either. So those brands are currently flying solo, some of them some of whom are doing so a little bit arrogantly, some of whom I think are doing out of a sense that there isn't really a better option at the moment. I think some of them will come back and will take part in events. Maybe not a giant 200, 300, 400, 500 brand fair in Switzerland where 100,000 people descend on the city from all over the world, but I think we will see a reshaping and that reshaping won't be every man for themselves.
Jack Forster Yeah, I I mean I think I agree with all that. And Basel World was I mean, you know, it was it was announced its rebirth was announced and uh now it's been cancelled again. And you know, the sort of joker in the deck is it how much longer is the pandemic going to go on for? And how much longer is I mean, you know, I think the answer to that is it's not ever going to go away. It's going to become an endemic disease that we manage well. But for the moment, it's producing a lot of uncertainty around, you know, where people can go, how many people can go to different places. Uh they're in the middle of a sort of early winter spike in Europe right now. Uh there are lots of travel restrictions in place that were not in place even um And the the other thing that I think is worth thinking about is that whether or not a brand chooses to participate in a group show, it really depends on whether on I I think it's gonna become more and more brand specific moving forward. So, you know, for example, Odmar Pigay, for instance, just to take one example, here's a brand which is uh really it's closing down its external retail channels, it's selling only through boutiques, setting up AP house, so-called AP houses all over all over uh the globe. And I think that this is going to be the trend moving forward for at least some of the major luxury brands. They really want to take control, not just of their retail channels, but also their communication channels, their exposure channels. They want to create macro environments around their products. They don't want your perception of what Ottawa Paget is to be informed just by seeing a royal oak in a case, if you can ever even see us deal royal oak in a case. They they want it to be informed by an entire uh environment that they've created, you know, hence the AP houses. And I think that that's probably going to be a significant trend moving forward for luxury brands. Now, smaller brands that produce at a larger scale, or uh even, you know, I think we can we're all comfortable calling Rolex a luxury brand at this point and have been for many years. There is uh there's definitely something to be gained from wider exposure, and I don't see Rolex, which you know has historically relied very heavily on its uh retail network, including the Siddiqui family, uh, you know, for instance, who I think are are uh at in any given year they were either the largest or one of the largest Rolex retailers in the world. You know, for brands like that, it probably doesn't make a whole lot of sense to try to create the kind of highly curated microenvironments that Otmar Paget is trying to create. You know, and the third thing is that I really do think, and I hope that the industry as a whole kind of um you know sees it this way as well. I do think there is some value to be had for the Swiss Swiss watch industry to kind of get together collectively and um, you know, do something that expresses sort of collective pride in the um, you know, the history of horology, its, you know, s sort of special place in Switzerland, its you know, rootedness in Swiss culture And in a largest sense for the entire industry globally to get together and do that. You know, I mean, uh, you know, Citizen and Seiko, uh, and Casio are major, major, major watchmaking brands as well. To have them absent from any sort of a global trade show would be, you know, an enormous miss. And um the I mean the thing that I always used to like about Basel World was it really felt like, you know, while there was a lot there was always going to be a lot of parochialism and a lot of competition, obviously, because, you know, there you are in the same room with, you know, literally hundreds of your direct competitors. But at the same time, it felt like we were all there because we all liked watches. And um, that's something that I miss a little bit. Well, actually, it's actually something I miss quite a lot um in the in the current environment. I mean, not being able to do something that sort of brings everyone together, you know, under a single banner of love for these, you know, really marvelously archaic objects. Um, you know, it's a it's it's a shame that we that we can't do that, and I hope that uh it becomes possible
James Stacey on some scale moving forward. Yeah, it's it's hard to overstate the feeling that it was to walk into the Mesoplats and see so many of the brands in one eye's view like in that tunnel view down down the center of the the main hall of hall one. You know, and I'll remember every year you wait at the gates until ten o'clock and then there's this kind of mad rush to get in there and see everything, but as you're walking in, there is this energy and it's not a business energy. It's like a deep nerdiness that the fur the opening press day is is a really fun thing. 'Cause not only are you seeing people, it's kind of like going back to camp. That's a you know, a joke we make pretty frequently with these sorts of events, uh that you get to see your camp friends. It's it was like Charge of the Light Brigade, but in a good way, right? Rolex to the left of you, Tudor to the right of you, Omega straight ahead of you. But it it it did have this really special feeling, and I don't think that feeling was the same when you went to SIHH. I mean, aesthetically SIHH was much different. Everything was kind of behind a facade, a literal facade before you got in and saw whereas this it was almost like all the brands were stepping forward, and it was a very like inviting sort of scenario, even though in many ways, unless you were in our scenario, you you could kind of just walk around and push a stroller and make sure that I couldn't make my next meeting on time on on a day on a day other than press day. But I always wanted to install journalist lanes. Yes. As we were sort of bolting between half-hour appointments. That and some sort of they needed some staff with with an orange vest or something for when you're just trying to do one fifteen second stand-up in front of the Rolex and there's somebody who's just kind they're standing directly over your shoulder, talking on their phone, and and you're like I uh uh could you just like six inches in either direction, my man, please. Somewhere somewhere
Jack Forster there's a there's a blooper reel uh of Stephen Polverand at Basel World a few years back. And he literally do like five takes outside Twitter in the same
James Stacey Yeah, it's like, come on, man. I I literally need twenty seconds of peace here. That'
Robin Swithinbank s what that's what's required. I think the big change is about how the brands collectively and the industry as a whole generates energy. So when I first went to Basel World in 2004, I think it was. And as we know, the landscape has changed irrevocably since then. But in 2004, you sort of needed an A-Basel world in order to show how big and powerful and sexy this watch industry was. And you walked in there and it was the only place you could feel that kind of energy. But of course, as we know, particularly over the last five or so years, uh, the landscape has become so much broader and so much more interesting. And it has, it can generate energy in so many different ways. And that's made the relevance of the fairs fundamentally uh less significant. Certainly as a visitor, um, you know, we can tap in on a daily basis now. When I first got into this, you couldn't. There was nothing else. But the fair was the high point of the year. And if there were one or two other high points during the course of the year, it was normally only for a select few. Um and I think that's the fundamental change that has made the or has has put the existential crisis into the watch uh fair bus
James Stacey iness. Yeah and and I know from a a very personal standpoint there's also uh I think the first year that we didn't have to go to the shows because of the pandemic, the shows weren't running, I I kind of felt like there was a reprieve, like I got a year off from uh you know what's essentially the the major leagues or the all-star game or whatever. Like I I'm not obviously not that tied into sports. You know, the thing that you kind of practiced and got good for all year, you had to compress that into six or seven days or five days or whatever and do it, do it like mad. But now that it's been a little while, even beyond that the initial pause of the shows, I do kind of miss the chance to see and shoot everything. Like just kid just you know, look at the calendar that that someone would put together and be like, I want to be in that meeting, I want to make sure I go to that meeting. And and that's kind of missing. And it's not the same to get a a press release. There you there used to be a you'd get the release in your message or they would say, Oh, on this day there's going to be a Zoom presentation. And for the first little while, you're like, this is better than being at the show. But now Well, I mean
Jack Forster , you know, I mean, lest we forget, I mean, we talk about you know the the fair is ha having been, you know, sort of a wonderful like summer camp for you know for watch journalists and for the watch industry. But you know, one very big thing that we've been missing is we don't actually get to see and handle a lot of the watches that we write about these days. You know, and I mean that is an enormous, enormous gap. And you know, we try to obviously I you know, I think that the three of us have been to enough trade shows and seen enough watches. I mean, I I don't know what it is collectively between the three of us, but you know, it's got to be more than thirty years. You know, so and you can make very, very educated guesses a lot of the time, but the fact that you don't actually get to see product physically and take that first impression home with you. It does make life very difficult, you know, and some sometimes very, very difficult. Definitely changes the context. Aaron Powell Yeah. You know, I mean people used to ask me, uh I would come home from Basel World and and people would say, you know, like what's what was what were your favorite watches at Bas It's like asking me which one is my favorite Cheerios from a whole bowl of Cheerios. Well it is just like I mean it it takes an anaconda six months to digest a deer, right? And like it I always felt like it took me that long to digest what I'd seen at Basel World. Yeah. Um but just like not actually seeing watches physically so much
James Stacey is it's tough. It's tough. Since its start back in 1865, Zenith has become one of the world's preeminent watch manufacturers, and the brand has been a player in many of watchmaking's greatest moments, including the historic flight over the English Channel, the creation of the first automatic chronograph movement in 1969, and even a record-setting leap for more than 24 miles above Earth's surface. Using exclusively in-house calibers, including the iconic El Primero, the 100th of a second resolution of the DeFi 21 line, and the universal charm of the new Chronomaster Sport, Zenith has established itself at the nexus of style and genre-defining watchmaking. As a nod to the pass that manages to reflect all of Zenith's modern watchmaking acumen, few watches represent the core of Zenith more than the El Primero Revival G381 Limited Edition. With its pink gold 38mm case and classic mid-century styling, the G three eighty one looks as special as ever, and this fifty piece limited edition represents a tribute to the fiftieth anniversary of the El Primero by recreating one of the hottest vintage inspired chronographs in a gorgeous commemorative edition. Powered by an automatic El Primero 400 movement, the G381 is a faithful homage to the golden era of sports chronographs with a bright panda dial, a sporty red seconds hand to highlight its ultra-smooth high-beat movement and a special 50-year warranty. Priced at $19,200 on a black alligator strap, it's a stunning tribute with true style, substance, and collector appeal. Click the link in the show notes or visit shop.hodinky.com to see for yourself. And now back to the show. But hey, I mean, Robin did get to go to the show, so we at least have one hands-on experience with with some of the watches, and it's good because there there were some interesting watches. Robin, you think uh Oris is is the as good a spot as any to start? Absolutely. I
Robin Swithinbank I think we've been watching on over the last few years uh as Oris has almost regenerated uh into this really quite interesting. It's independent. It's still an independent brand. We don't think of it as an independent brand in the same way we do with so many of the micro brands, perhaps to use that. You know, this is a brand that's almost certainly producing perhaps as many as 50,000 watches a year. I'm not quite sure they don't publicize the number. But uh it in the last few years, it's I think since 2014, it's introduced uh, I'm gonna say nine new calibers. Uh obviously, most of them were derivatives of either one base caliber or another. I think they've only done two base calibers, but uh suddenly the story has uh the watchmaking story has has gathered an enormous amount of pace, as has the story around the brand and the way that it's uh presenting itself, the way that it communicates and the way that it wants us to perceive it. And at uh Debai Watch Week, we got two new watches from Oris, one of which uh was uh probably was really quite significant. I think it's the s the signature Oris design, the big crown point to date, um, which has been around uh they say it's been uh in production uh without uh any sort of cessation since 1938. I don't know whether that's true or not, but the uh the design is is pretty familiar to people who know a watch. But of course, it's uh it wasn't chosen uh as the uh as the shell for caliber 400 when caliber 400 was introduced 12 months ago that went to the aquus uh which was clearly a commercial decision rather than a romantic decision but that caliber is now inside uh the sort of core collection uh uh big crown pointed date, uh having appeared briefly in that limited edition 250-piece uh Holstein edition over the summer. And so yes, you can now have yourself a 38mm big crown with this uh this this exceptional caliber in it for I'm not sure what it is in dollars, but in pounds it's only two thousand six hundred pounds, which for a watch with a five-day power reserve and ten-year warranties and pretty impressive anti-mag specifications is uh it' its it''ss
James Stacey a a lot of a lot of watch for your money. Yeah, it's thirty four hundred US. I I got it this is actually one I did get to go hands on with. They they loaned it to me before it went down uh to New York for some photos and I I was really impressed by this watch. It's it's really beautiful, which isn't really surprising if you know the pointer date. But the pointer date for me, I didn't actually ever think of the pointer date as being e even too big at forty millimeters by any stretch, but it works really well at thirty-eight. This is a like an especially beautiful watch. It's got this really inky blue dial that really plays with the this is a weird statement. But if you've seen this watch in person, the blue of the dial seems to play with the AR coating on the crystal in a way that feels almost intentional rather than just some brightlings used to do this where you would get a a blue steel fish and they always had their kind of purpley blue AR and it worked in sunlight. And this works in the same way. The movement, of course, is lovely. They've got a different treatment for the pointer hand instead of the crescent indicator. It's now like a red, almost more like a GMT indication, a red uh arrowhead. Jack, did you get it get a chance to take a peek at this one? I think it was in New York because I think we're carrying it in the shop as well. So you
Jack Forster know I didn't get a chance to see it yet. Um I've just seen it in pictures, but you know, it's a awfully handsome watch. I mean, you know, it's a classic design, it's classic for Horus and uh it's a great example of the old say
James Stacey ing that classics are classics for a reason. And then uh the other that they offered is a a brand new line, correct? Uh Robin? This is one I haven't seen in person, just the images. Yeah, this is interesting. I I I th
Robin Swithinbank ought it was, but then digging around on the website discovered that if you know, if you dig far enough that there has been an Oris rectangular before, but I'd never ever seen it. Uh and uh it's I it's interesting. I don't know whether I don't why they've reintroduced it, but it's come in a year when we've seen a number of rectangular watches. I found myself writing a story about rectangular watches to the New York Times earlier this year. I knew the ORIS was coming, and uh unfortunately they delayed the launch. It was supposed to come at Geneva Watch Days and was pushed back to Dubai Watch Week for whatever commercial reason. But um that's a great looking watch. It's um I mean in in mechanical watch terms, it's cheap as chips. Um it's uh very much sort of falling into line with the with the trend for things like the tank must and uh at the higher end, I've forgot the name of the watch now, but the uh the langer, the the rectangular langer, the extraordinarily complicated langer. Yeah, help me out. What's that called? The cabaret and the arcade. Thank you. The cab exactly, exactly. So uh yeah, I I I I tried one on. I think it looks good. I think the uh the Bordeaux is uh is my pick. The blue is pretty nice as well, but it's uh that it's also playing into the trend for colour. Um and Horis is uh ultimately a pretty kind of uh ultimately it's a mainstream product because of its price point, and that I think it's about 1450 pounds, I think, so a little bit more than $10. And uh it's a it's a nice commercial uh introduction into their collection, which uh I suspect will do reasonably well without ever being a high fly
Jack Forster er. Well one of the things I I have always admired about Oris is just the the uh the descriptive pragmatism of their names. I mean, uh, the Oris rectangular is in fact rectangular. You're not going to mix it up for a different one, that'
James Stacey s for sure. Just what it says on the tin. And so, yeah, it comes in a blue, a red, a sort of um gray, and then a silver dial, different strap options. For those of you that you know are c comparing in your mind with something like a tank, it's twenty five and a half millimeters by thirty eight millimeters, stainless steel case, and yeah, it looks like a what about seventeen, eighteen hundred bucks. Yeah, I think this is a handsome thing. And it also makes sense in my mind because we're seeing this continued rise in popularity with things like the Cartier tank, especially in the last, say, four or five years, even more so in the last even two years. They just seem to be coming a very um hot watches, even among people who aren't necessarily watch collector. Yeah, that's true. I uh there'
Robin Swithinbank s a sort of a style maven quality to to the tank, isn't there, which um far transcends uh simple watch design and love of watch design. And maybe we'll be playing into that a little bit. I mean, it does have a very art deco feel. It's got the sort of the uh the rail track minute counters and uh it's it feels very much of that period with and I'm but as far as I know, I don't I don't know whether Oris actually made a a a watch in a rectangular shape in that in in that time, back in the sort of twenties and thirties. They were certainly very productive years for Oris that
James Stacey that particular season. Yeah, the dial and hands have a sort of um uh reverso Aaron Powell Yeah, very much so
Jack Forster . It's got um uh a little step to the uh to the case flank on either side, which actually reminds me a little bit of the uh Paddock Tende of all things. Ye
James Stacey ah, the proportions are quite similar, aren't they? That's a fair cool. Fair show. And so beyond Oris, what else kind of struck you as being, you know, interesting to chat chat about? Did you get a chance to see the Moser in person? I did see the Moser in person. Um I I
Robin Swithinbank have a fondness uh for the Cyrillic alphabet because uh full disclosure I studied Russian at university so I I I when I saw it I I guess I obviously knew what it was uh or knew what it said. And perhaps for some there would have been a little bit of mystery there, a little bit of mystique. I think what what what I continue to enjoy about Moser is that they they don't they do a pretty good job of appearing not to care too much whether people like their watches or not. I think Edward's probably a little bit more sensitive than he lets on or likes to let on. But uh the response that uh uh that piece that I I wrote for you guys was was pretty mixed. One or two saying, nah, totally don't want that. And others saying I think that's pretty cool. And I think is it Moser has that uh capacity to be a little bit of a, as we say in the UK, a marmite brand where it's quite a difficult brand to ignore. Um people, people love it, people hate it. There's there's not much room for for any emotion in between. And uh this watch seemed to sort of slot right into uh that that same uh same spectrum. I liked it
James Stacey . Yeah so this is the heritage bronze and then in quotation since eighteen twenty eight limited edition and it's uh yeah like a bronze a big bronze uh sort of pilot effect design if you, if might imagine, uh kind of a classic look and then like you'd mentioned the um the uh Cyrillic alphabet for the the Moser logo. I I think it's a handsome looking watch. Moser's a brand that I in many ways I, feel people have to see in person, you know, that you can get a lot from the photos, but especially if you're getting into some of these ones with the whether it be the the Fanta Black uh dials or or some of their more avant-garde expressions, they they do this cool thing where they'll take a silhouette of format that is well known and then just iterate it in twenty, thirty different directions, whether it's a you know the endeavor or or whatever. And I think there's a an expression for just about any taste. Definitely they're not making watches that seem to care what other people are making in watches, which I give them credit for. Yeah, I mean if uh one of your
Jack Forster products is um something that is easily mistaken for an Apple Watch on the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, and seventh glance, and you're calling it the Swiss Elp Watch. You know, you definitely know that you're not driving in the same lane as anybody else in the industry. For su
James Stacey re. And then beyond the Moser, did you get a chance to see the 'Cause that's one that that doesn't necessarily for me. This is a weird thing for me to say 'cause I'm such a big MB and F fan. The photos, it doesn't work for me. Yeah, I mean it's it's it's an extraordinary thing
Robin Swithinbank . And I think probably the first thing to say about it it is that is it it is not uh the flying tea. It is it is a a completely new shape. But um Fabrizio uh sort of took the form and and and did his thing. He he squeezed it, he he made it his own, um while also retaining the the basic genetics of of the of uh of max booster's design so uh i had i actually sat down with both of them uh uh in geneva back in august uh to look at this thing so i've seen it a few times now. it And's a challenging watch perhaps for uh someone like me who likes basic sort of utilitarian chronograph at a stretch kind of watches, uh to sit and look at something like that and try and appreciate it because it is ultimately a jewelry watch. The setting of the stones is very much in keeping with Bulgary's Allegra jewelry collection, about which I know next to nothing. So much of the appraisal of it, I think, has to be through the lens of somebody who understands what uh Fabrizio has done as a jeweller. Um, and for him, I think it was uh it was licensed to to bring his two passions together in a way that he doesn't uh normally have the opportunity to do. So he uh he was saying how frustrated he often is when it comes to designing a jewelry watch because he's got so little space to play with. You can't put a great big rock in an octofenissimo. Uh it's just it's never going to be possible. Whereas when you've got a giant dome sitting over the top of a watch dial, then yeah, you can chuck four or five big stones in there and uh and express yourself as a designer uh much more fully. And I think he uh he had enjoyed the opportunity to do that. Well Max had found it uh quite painful as I think he does when he puts these collaborations together. He has he he described it as a dictatorship detox, because as we know, he's a total control freak, and very successfully so. But uh these these collaborations require him to release his uh his IP, his his the these beautiful creations of his and and allow someone else who has a different take to reinterpret them. And that is uh as a creative, something that's quite brave. I I
Jack Forster think we have to agree. You know it's funny, Robin. I think that this is the only watch that we've uh that we're gonna talk about today or that we have talked about today that uh what that we've both seen in person because we actually had it uh here in the office to shoot. And um I have to admit I have kind of a weakness for big stones. I mean, one of the first Jack. Oh gosh. One of the first. I did I did rather walk into that one, didn't I? Um the uh one of the first people that I ever uh met uh in the watch industry was uh was uh Jacob the Jeweler, Jacob Arbo, um many, many years ago. And I I went up to his boutique on fifty seventh street and I w was there ostensibly to look at the Quentin Turbion, and um he started showing me, you know, he he like apparently I you know I showed an interest in stones and he started showing me bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger stones. And by the end of half an hour, I was holding a twenty-six million dollar sixteen carat pink pink diamond in my hand, and I was like, there's a really big guy with a suspicious bulge under his coat standing by the door. How far you know, speaking of how far could
James Stacey you get down the street? It'd be like that scene where they list everyone who's ever tried to knock off the casinos in in Oceans Eleven. Jack, you might have made it to the front plaza. Right,
Jack Forster right. This guy actually tasted fresh air. So this is all by way of saying I I find I find big stones, especially colored stones, you know, just kind of fascinating. There's this weird, um, and it doesn't feel like an entirely wholesome charm that they exert. You know, I mean, uh, if you're susceptible to uh the allure of big stones at all. Um it it doesn't, you know, it it really does feel as if something's getting inside your head that you don't necessarily want in there, but that you, you know, kind of can't help letting in. And for me it goes back a long way. When I first moved to New York, I was 21 years old and I walked into Tiffany, and I the first thing that caught my eye was a pair of gigantic pigeons blood ruby earrings. And uh I asked the lady, and I you know, I mean I was wearing like torn jeans and you know, like a t-shirt and carrying a backpack. Um you know, but the nice thing was uh everybody there, everybody there was super polite, I guess, because you never know who you're talking to. And I asked the lady behind the counter, uh, you know, how much are these earrings and uh uh sh she said, Oh, uh you have a good eye, sir. These are uh pigeons blood uh ruby uh earrings from Burma. They're three hundred and fifty thousand dollars uh for the pair, but we have them at all price ranges. So I took a look. I took a look at the Allegra and I thought, this is cool, man. Look at those stones. It I think it's hilarious that Max described it as a dictator detox because, you know, I hadn't really considered until you until you said that, Robin. But like, I mean, yes, he's he's a control freak. Yes, he absolutely obsesses about the minutest detail of every single thing that he produces. And there is not a single detail in any of his watches that he has not personally blessed, 100%. So for him to let, you know, Fabrizio, you know, go bananas with big stones on this particular watch, m must have been very, very difficult for him. I I think the funniest I and and you know, I mean the Hodicki commentariat um you know s largely disliked it, I think, because it ran so counter to what they wanted and expected from MBNF. But I loved it. I thought it was this was just, you know, wonderful, wacky take, wonderful, wacky, incredibly expensive take. On an MBNF, the best comment that I saw was uh oh it's uh it's um it's the infinity watch, you know, like the infinity gauntlet, you know, with the infinity stones in it. from the movie Did you see the movie? Either of you see the movie? Two faces
James Stacey staring stonily back at you. Is that a like a oh that's a like a comic book one? Uh it's an Avengers reference. Ah, okay. I'm out. I'm out on that combo. Um I think the the
Robin Swithinbank other thing about it, of course is that it uh at a business level, the business case for it's kind of extraordinary too, because Bulgarie doesn't really gain anything financially, it gains nothing of any significance whatsoever. I mean, maybe a couple of million dollars worth of turnover, which I mean in Max's case is going to be very significant for a company, his company's turning fifteen, twenty million dollars a year, something in in that kind of range. So it's a significant partnership for him. But um for Bulgari to go into the space and I I I did catch Baba at uh Geneva Watch Days and asked him what why have you guys done this? You know, you don't need to do this clearly. A sentiment that Fabrizio echoed when I spoke to him. He described as dangerous actually because he felt the uh the potential to kind of screw up the Bulgari name was quite high. But uh Baba actually said that he felt that there was um there was some watchmaking prowess in MBNF that Bulgarie still doesn't have despite all of his achievements over the last 10 years and uh that it would it would help continue the narrative that Bulgari is a serious watchmaker, it is passionate about high-end watchmaking. Um and so I think that was a a glowing commendation by Baba of uh what uh MBNF have achieved
Jack Forster . I mean it's been ultra-thin watchmaking. That's that's what that's where they sort of um finally got people to take them seriously as a watchmaker and and deservedly so. But you know, I mean they inha a lot of the IP for complications, for instance, they inherited from Daniel Roth or from or from Gerald Genta. And uh one of the things that I really like about the uh the Finissimo series is that it really feels like bulgary. As I understand it um through you, Robin, is is is a good one. I mean they they they actually you know I mean there are only so many records in ultra-flat watchmaking you can break before it starts to seem, while impressive, a little bit repetitive. And uh I think that it is necessary for them to sort of branch out a little bit. And this that's actually one of the things I liked about the collaboration. Also the stones. Well then
Robin Swithinbank I actually the Alphain Records actually at uh Dubai Watch Week they had all seven of them in a case together, which was uh which was pretty cool actually. I don't think I've ever seen all seven of them together like before.
James Stacey Like cardboard cutouts. Literally. Fascinating watches for sure. And and uh were the worthy owners of those records. Uh I think we got time for at least uh one more uh look at another launch. What do you what do you think, Robin? The Girard Perigo stuff catch your eye
Robin Swithinbank ? Uh I think we have to go there because uh Giro Perigo uh very boldly rocked up with four new models, two of which were L'Oreato's, which were the two that uh focused my attention particularly. They uh they put out a couple of um uh 188 piece limited editions uh called uh I'm gonna get this wrong again Infinity or Eternity let's get this right from here to eternity. F hererom to eternity. Good. Infinity was last year. Of course with the black dials, which you could sort of look into forever. So yes, the uh the eternity editions with either a blue or a green enameled dial. I don't get particularly excited by enameled dials if I'm perfectly honest, but uh there was uh there was a romance and a beauty to those and also I think a relatively sensible price. I mean they were again I think I mean I'm working in pounds here about 11 and a half thousand pounds. Yeah. Fifente thousand two hundred US. Okay, that sounds about right then. Which um yeah, I think for that for that quality of watch from from uh from what is that is still uh high end watch making brand with a pretty iconic design uh and with an enamel dial was is is is relativ
James Stacey ely For anyone who doesn't track uh Gerard Perigo that carefully, the L'Oreato is sort of their integrated steel sports watch a la uh Royal Oak or uh Chopard's Alpine Eagle or you know it's it's a trend and and everybody's and and they got into it a few years ago to their credit and this is a 42 millimeter with um uh as Robin mentioned a really gorgeous option of either a blue or a green enamel dial, which really does kind of it does that not high-low thing, but with a steel watch that's very sporty to then have quite a resplendent dial. I think that they've done a nice job and it feels very GP to me to my, understanding of this brand. This feels core to them, despite the fact that it's not um some incredible triple bridge or or or or what. I'm still trying to figure out where this brand is going. W
Jack Forster hat what do you think, Jake? Where do you think GP is going at the moment? Well, first of all, I have to apologize. It's just the Eternity Edition. I don't know where I got from here to Eternity. I think um I'm going soft in the head. Just writing ad copy for them now? That one's free. They could take it. It's all it's all right. I I mean I don't know. They have such a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful heritage, you know, from the um you know from the turbions that they made in the middle, you know, late nineteenth century, uh up through the you know, the um the gyromatic high frequency was guaranteed you know in the 1960s late 1960s to run within uh a minute a month which was an extraordinary achievement at the time it was one of the first first successful commercially available high frequency watches. I've always felt the L'Oreato, maybe because it started out as a quartz watch in the nineteen seventies, that might have something to do with it. Um but I always feel that it didn't quite get the respect that it deserves. You know, it's uh it's a cool watch. I've actually had a couple of uh you know vintage mechanical Laureatos with GP Zone extra flat movement, both of which I sold and both of which I wish I hadn't sold. And the money's got nothing to do with it, I just missed them as watches. It's hard for me to think of another brand that has so much to work with in terms of you know in-house movement capacity, history, design history, the the the Esmerel de Turbillon, they they made an homage to it as a wristwatch, I think, for Dubai Watch Week. And I I've again've only seen it in pictures, but it looks it you know, it's breathtaking. And I I can't quite figure out why they're having so much trouble bringing some focus into how they present themselves to the public because all the pieces are there. You know, I mean they've got they've got a a history and a heritage as a watchmaker and at the very, very high end as well. That would be the envy of most other luxury brands. They have a portfolio of movements that very few other brands have of in-house movements. So they have a manufacturing capacity. And I don't know. Like I th I just feel like somehow, you know, if I were to give them advice for you know the next five years, I would say pick or well, okay, two to five years. I would say over the short term, over the short to medium term, pick a couple of things and just focus on those. Because with the GP, you never know what you're going to get. You could be getting a wonderful stainless steel integrated sports watch with an in-house mechanical movement. Well, you know, or you or you could be getting um you know a three-quarter of a million dollar you know turbine under three sapphire bridges. Uh I mean it's just it's it's it's this is part of the problem, right? There's a so many things that they message about. And uh I think it's hard for consumers to sort of reconcile all of those things into a single brand identity. And it's not really the consumer's job to do that, right? It's the marketing department's job to figure out how to do that, and it's the brand's job to figure out how to do that. The consumer won't do it
Robin Swithinbank . The consumer the consumer is far too lazy to do it. And that's their prerogative. I completely agree. I mean, my last two interactions as Giro Perigo, one was with uh the Aston Martin Formula One team, and then and then including my interaction at Dubai Watch Week, the the fourth watch was uh was uh well there was a cat sign there as well, but then there was a a uh a reworking of the La Esmeralda uh Tourbillon Pocket Watch from 1889, which uh was just covered in enameling and all sorts of miniature this and miniature that, the sort of staggeringly high complication watch. And I can't quite bring those two things. I can't. There isn't, I don't think there is a way of bringing those two things together. I'm sure the brand will tell me there is, um, given they've done both in this inside six months. But um although they haven't, of course. I suppose the Laos Merelda uh tool beyond pocket uh wristwatch uh will have been uh in in production in some way, shape or form for maybe five to ten years, uh and they they had no aspirations to become a partner of Aston Martin in the meantime. But uh there is a slight schizophrenia in the story and the messaging at the moment and indeed in the production of uh wristwatches, which uh they do need to iron out. You know
Jack Forster , it's funny, there's one person at Cartier who is responsible for just making sure that everything that Cartier produces, and this is a very intangible thing to say, actually feels like something that Cartier would make. And they haven't always, you know, historically they have not always been successful at doing that. But you know, you think about the uh the different tank designs that have appeared since 1918. And um, you know, it's very hard for me to think of one that uh is not an unqualified success. They all look like tanks. Uh, they're all different. Um, you know, they're all different takes on the design. I mean, okay, maybe the the divan is not the um uh was was not the most successful design effort that they ever put out, but like uh understanding what it is, and this is a really, really hard problem to crack, figuring out what it is that makes a watch a Cartier watch, or figuring out what it is that makes a watch a Rolex watch. Like it looks obvious in those two cases, but it's actually something that's really, really hard to do. And there are different ways of sort of making that happen. But you think of I think of Vashron Constantin, for example. Now, here's a company which has stainless steel sports watches, it has ultra-thins, it has uh very, very, very high complications in its portfolio. But by and large they all feel like Vacheron watches. They all feel like they have that they somehow have the spirit
James Stacey of the of the company of the Mizel. Sort of the same level of focus brought to anything. Just feels like it came from the same team, which I don't know that you would say for the Girard Perigo stuff. It's not that any one part of it is it makes no sense or is bad. It just doesn't feel that cohesive. So
Jack Forster like here's a here's an interesting like it's an interesting test case, right? Like like why is it largely working for Vashron, but doesn't feel like it's working right now for Giroud Peregrine. As a consultant, I just gonna make a lot of money answering that
James Stacey question. Jack, it could be you. Yeah, for sure. Maybe that maybe that placement's open. Who knows? Brand unification strategy uh manager or something like that. Would fill a business card. Well done for not
Robin Swithinbank saying DNA in that little uh diatribe
Jack Forster as well. That was impressive. Yeah, kudos. When I became editor-in-chief for Revolution USA many years ago, the first the first one of the first things I did was send out an email saying that forevermore that the the term brand DNA is is expunged from our copy
James Stacey . That's a safe one. That's a good one to have on the uh on the the you know do not write list for sure. Well, look, guys, I don't want to take up any more of your time. I think this has been great. Robin, thank you so much for uh going to uh uh Dubai Watch Week and and uh offering up a couple of great stories. Uh everybody can hit the links if you want to check out those stories if you didn't get the download. There's a pretty good kind of uh wrist shot uh story uh that I I enjoyed quite a bit and I thought was uh really nicely written as well. Guys, this has been fun. Thank you so much. James, great to be here. Thanks for hav
Jack Forster ing me. Always a pleasure. Yeah thanks for uh thanks for having me on the show., James It's always fun. And uh it's uh great, great talking to you, Robin. It's been been forever.
James Stacey Too long, Jack. Far too long. Far too long. Maybe we'll get to do one of these face to face. I'll bring uh every microphone I own for that uh that outing sometime in the future.. All right If you're listening, enjoying the show, but you know, please tell a friend. Let us know in the comments if there's something we could change or do better, if there's a watch we missed that you wish we talked about. And other than that, sit tight and we'll chat to you again in a few days with another episode.