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So, You Want To Be A Watch Writer?

Published on Sat, 20 Nov 2021 11:00:00 +0000

Ben and Jack on what it takes to make it as a watch writer.

Synopsis

In this episode of the Hodinkee podcast, host James Stacy sits down with two of the publication's most prominent writers, Ben Clymer and Jack Forster, to discuss how to break into the world of watch writing. The conversation explores their very different origin stories—Jack's began with repairing a 125-year-old pocket watch found at a flea market and participating in Usenet newsgroups in the late 1990s, while Ben started Hodinkee as a creative outlet while working in finance, initially viewing it as a stepping stone to journalism school rather than a career destination.

The three discuss essential traits for longevity in the field, emphasizing that genuine passion for the subject matter produces the best writing, and that being difficult to work with or resistant to editing will ultimately limit career growth. They note how the industry has evolved dramatically, with most watch discourse moving from print to digital, and how modern watch writers need to be generalists in terms of skills—capable of writing, photography, video hosting, and content management—while maintaining a focused, authentic perspective in their coverage. The conversation touches on the importance of respecting all stakeholders in the watch ecosystem, from brands to retailers to readers, without compromising journalistic integrity.

Both Ben and Jack emphasize that starting in watch writing today would be significantly more challenging than when they began, and they stress the importance of collaboration and being part of a team rather than trying to be a solo star. They advise aspiring watch writers to develop multiple skills, be easy to work with, meet deadlines, and understand that being entertaining and making editors' lives easier can be just as important as pure writing talent. The episode concludes with practical advice: be a generalist in skills but focused in passion, learn to work with others, know when to defer to greater expertise, and perhaps most importantly, learn French.

Transcript

Speaker
James Stacy This episode is proudly brought to you by Leica Cameras and their cutting edge SL platform. Please stay tuned for more details about a new trade-in program and a special Black Friday bundle with peak design, or visit bit.ly slash Leica SL Camera for more information. Hey, it's me, James Stacy, and today we're digging into one of the most commonly asked questions how do I that's you get into writing about watches? To shine a light on an unconventional career path, I've collected two of Hodinki's heaviest hitters, Ben and Jack, both of whom came to this wacky world via two very different trajectories. From traditional journalism to the hallowed halls of enthusiastic Career that I promise few of your family or peers will ever understand. Also, a quick heads up, this episode has a bit more bad language than normal. You've been warned, and let's get to it. Ben, Jack, welcome to the show. It's a pleasure to have you both back on. Yeah, whatever. It's great to see you guys. So yeah, we're digging into kind of what it is to get into watch writing. It's kind of a weird job to aspire to to get into, but and yet it all three of us kind of landed here i at some level, uh some more intentionally than others. Uh I think it's probably helps to understand if we want to know where we are now, maybe know where we started. Jack, you want to give us a little bit of a background on your sort of origin story in writing about watches being involved in I mean I
Jack Forster love the phrase origin story because it implies that um both Ben and I were bitten by radioactive watches at some point in the not too distant past. Um I I mean, f for me, I feel like my uh you know, sort of interests were kind of circling around what I've ended up doing for the last ten years, probably starting when I was about like seven or eight years old when I first sort of like noticed watches and got interested in watches. But it really got started uh back in the early 2000s, not earlier than then actually, late 1990s, uh, when I was spending a lot of time hanging around flea markets, and I was collecting fountain pens at the time because number one, collecting fountain pens was and still is actually a hell of a lot cheaper than collecting watches. And fountain pens are mechanically really simple. So if you found one that was broken, it was trivially easy to repair. And uh watches are not trivially easy to repair, but I found a broken one, uh a pocket watch, sitting in the drawer of a desk that somebody was trying to sell at the twenty sixth Street Flea Market. And um I asked him how much for the watch, and of course he was trying to sell the desk and he was like, uh I will let you buy that watch for five dollars just to get you out of my face, because you're definitely not gonna buy the desk. So I bought the watch and I took it home and uh it sat there for probably six months and then I started wondering like and I'd never really thought of it before because by then, you know, quartz watches and digital watches had been around, you know, basically forever. You know, but I started wondering like, how does this machine keep time? And I managed to get on a couple of discussion forums on Usenet newsgroups. That that's that's how long ago this was. And uh I found some watchmakers uh you know kind of miraculously who were like, okay, like here's how you take the back off of this watch without like destroying it because like clearly you're an idiot. I mean, n nobody has contempt for people who don't know anything, like watchmakers have contempt for people who don't know anything. And it took me about six months, but I managed to get the back off the darn thing. I still have it, by the way. It's a hundred and twenty five year old Waltham. And uh I managed to get the back off of it and I I managed to figure out what tools to buy, which was really tricky. Uh I I had to buy them from a jobber out in California. And I managed to take the thing apart, put it back together and get it running again without destroying it, you know, which is proof of that like miracles can occur if anything is. Uh and you know it was keeping time to within 10 seconds a day, which for a 125-year-old watch with a completely blown mainspring is not too bad. And I thought to myself, well, that's really cool. I mean, that moment when you see something that old that you've touched with your own hands start to tick, you know, it's like a Frankenstein moment. Sure. Right? Like What have I done? Yeah. I what I I should have thought that. But I'm sure you guys both know the feeling, like something that you have uh you know, brought back to life with your own hands that's like over a century old, like you know, it starts ticking again and you're like I've created life. And you get this like little burst of serotonin, and you're like, I would like to create life again. And that
James Stacy 's that's really how it started. And do you remember your kind of your first step into taking that kind of serotonin hit and then wanting to feed it back out into the world by you know putting it into words and sentences and such. Uh but w what was the first piece you wrote or or gig you had in in the in the space?
Jack Forster Man, uh it was it was really arguing with watches about people on uh Usenet newsgroups and I mean, if anybody is really seriously interested in digging some of those arguments up, I'm sure that they still exist because like Usenet News groups are archived somewhere. It'd be interesting to know where. Who share this same like weird ass obsession that I had. And I think that's like the the great thing about the Internet. Well, one of the very few great things about the Internet is that you can is that you can find people who are as bizarre as you are, you know, uh whether you're interest is writing like My Little Pony fanfiction or watches, uh, which were kind of like morally and technically equivalent back in 1998, you know, you can find people who share the same interests. And uh it was I think that that like wonderful moment where you realize that being interested in watches isn't this like weird thing that happens in magazines that are published six times a year. It's something that can actually happen in real time between real people. And um and you know that was exciting
James Stacy and validating. For sure. Yeah, yeah. Uh Ben, any similarities with kind of your uh earliest days in in deciding to again take what I assume was a great level of fascination and and start putting it into words and maybe organizing it online? Uh zero zero
Ben Clymer zero relationship there to to Jack's origin story at all. But you know, if effectively like I wanted to to do something really different with my life than what I was currently doing at the time, which was uh kind of a project manager within the financial industry. I loved to write. I was never really given a platform to write, uh, or I should say I never really asked for a platform to write. And uh, you know, for for me, it was just doing something creative that felt so different than what I was really doing professionally at the time, which again was like spreadsheets and PowerPoint presentations, et cetera. And it was just a a wonderful thing. So for me, you know, and don't none of you, please take this wrong way. Either you guys as co-workers or your listeners out there, like Hoodinky for me was really a means to kind of flex my my writing ability and maybe someday get into a journalism program, which I did, obviously. And when I was accepted into grad school, I said, okay, like I'm I'm good now. You know, I can I can stop writing about watches. Uh I obviously didn't and I kind of fell more deeply in love with the category in the space. But I think for me, I'd say the greatest thing that ever happened uh for me was not being aware of the watchwriters that came before me. Because if I were, I would probably try to have emulated a Jack Forrester or Joe Thompson or Walt O'Dets or whoever. The one guy that I was, you know, I learned about early on in my kind of like interest in watches was uh Chuck Maddox. Um and and weirdly, he I believe passed away the month that Hodinki went online, which is kind of a strange thing. Um, but you know, he was interested in the same stuff that I was, which was like at the time, like vintage chronographs, mostly tool watches. Um and so Chuck Maddox was one of the guys that kind of like he was an early blogger, so to speak. But I was, as I said, kind of blissfully unaware of what watch time revolution, even the purest time zone where we're up to at that time. And I think because of that, I was just doing what made me happy. And I think I was just writing about the stuff that interested me. And I think that that is surely the best way to make a name for yourself in the watch space or really any enthusiast market is like if you if you if you genuinely care about something you're gonna want to spend more time doing it and all I wanted to do for you know the first five plus years of Podiki was just like learn about and then write about watches. And if you know the the the money the the the the you know the the whatever the the the the fame the glory that came after that was not even a uh an idea like it was that wasn't why we were there at all like I didn't what press trips were I didn't know what any of this stuff was. Um so I was just there to tell stories about watches and I was I was obviously incredibly fascinated with watches. But you know again my my original goal was to be a writer full stop didn't have to be about watches at all. And if if you go back into the internet archives, you know, 12, 13 years ago, like you'll see me writing about I wrote for the the literary blog on Forbes with with our friend Hannah Elliott. Uh I wrote for Ask Men about you know fashion and cars and restaurants. You know, I just wanted to be a journalist. And then you know watches were a fascination, but I frankly didn't think that I would ever make a dollar writing about watches because 'cause how could you possibly make a dollar writing about watches, you know?
Jack Forster You know, I have to say, Ben, I think that's where there is actually considerable overlap in the both of our early experiences of writing about watches. I mean, the first time I got paid 25 cents a word for writing about watches, I was like, well, that's weird. Yeah
Ben Clymer . Totally. And I just it's so funny you mentioned like 25 cents per word. I remember in the early days that was really a thing. It's how much you get paid per word. And you know, if you're I remember Dan Neil, who was a Pulitzer Prize winning automotive journalist, I remember being on a press drunket, a car press drunket, and everyone was like, oh my God, did you hear that Dan Neil now makes a dollar fifty a word? And it's just like the just the idea of like a dollar fifty a word is so funny now, and to be clear, I don't know him, and I'm sure he probably makes far more than that now. But it was just so funny to be talking about, you know, dollars per words back then. Uh, and that was really how you were kind of like you were judged as a journalist, is what you got paid per word. And thankfully that
James Stacy is no longer the the case. Yeah, that has kind of gone away in the last few years. That's been my experience. But it was like that when I first got my start, it was you know you had a rate and either they offered you a rate card or they asked you what your rate was, and that was your little moment of negotiation. And then you basically you're in for whatever whatever number you had established. And and I think that's one of those kind of interesting lessons that I'm not sure necessarily the same now, but when when you guys got started and do you remember any specific lessons that you kind of absorbed then that even kind of pay off now or or you know, maybe you do a little bit less writing than you did at one point or considerably less, uh depending on the scope, but any of that you kind of carry with you that you felt uh something you would pass on to someone? Sure. Yeah. I mean f look, I I'm a
Ben Clymer particular type of professional where if I don't care about something, I will do a very poor job covering it. As I think, you know, James, I I I hate to say you might be one of those guys too. Uh yeah, it's a major flaw, but it's true. No doubt. And likewise. And and so, you know, like w when I found something that fascinated me, Ben, you know, as an individual, I would crush it. And so I think back to like the early Paul Newman stuff and when Stephen Queen's watch sold in like 2008, I thought I did a really good job with. And you know, I was obsessed, and I mean obsessed with the these really early Daytona 6239 double swiss underline watches. The story still online on Houdinky that it was just like just a fucking nerd out uh on this thing, and uh eric lapkin's platinum twenty four ninety nine which is one of the first videos that our colleague will holloway did for did for hodinky and like really you know and I I still think like and this is not me saying this I think you guys you know you the you guys at large will still will say and see this like when when I'm excited about something like you can sense it you can feel it in my writing and when Jack is excited about something you can sense it in his writing and I think the same would be true for you James and I think like we love this stuff at times do like the these are jobs and i think like that's the first kind of like misconception with working at hoodinky or working anywhere in the space like this is a job you know and like we all do shit we don't want to do i was just in an incredibly annoying you know uh zoom call right before this. I won't say with who, but like this is this is work, you know. And so yes, we do get to travel around the world and see beautiful things and write about wonderful objects that we love. But you know, when when the stars aligned to present you with an object that you were just fascinated by on a personal level, uh the writing comes alive. And I've seen it with Jack with you know his stuff on the datagraph. And I remember um I think it was actually before before we worked together. In fact I know it was you wrote a story about the datagraph for Forbes Life, I think, which was just, I think it was a c
Jack Forster over story, wasn't it Jack? Oh poof. This is uh I'm going back to a time where my uh memory is not as accurate as it used to be, but I think you're right. Okay. I I I I I think it was a
Ben Clymer cover story for Forbes' life. And I remember reading that story. And I was like, wow, like like this is how you write about a watch in a magazine, you know? And uh, you know, it it just it it comes down to like for me personal interest. And you know, if if James, if you want me to do, you know, uh a 10,000 word story on the 25, 26, only in white metals, like I could do that. And I would do it with a smile on my face if I had the time, you know. But if you want me to write about something else, like it would, it would be a real struggle for me. So for me, you know, it it, you know, it's the stupid adage, like, you know, if you if if you do what you love, like you never work a day in your life, like that can be true. And like I wrote a story for our our site not long ago, two weeks ago, about the the watches coming up at auction. And like I pinged all of our collective boss here, Nick Marino, who's our SVP content, and said, Hey dude, like I'm writing this thing. Like are you okay with that? And he's like, of course. You know, like I just woke up on a Saturday and I wanted to do it. Uh and that's the type of writing that I think uh produces the best results
Jack Forster . You know, there's a part of me that wants to say, listen guys, if you know like anybody out there who's like in their twenties and wants to start out as a watchwriter, like, you know, uh consciously work at being a good generalist, and like there's definitely some upside to that. But the truth is, like, that's not what got Ben the success that he's had as a watchwriter and it's not what got me as success my success as a watch writer either. Like the truth is, both of us, you know, and I and I think Ben's absolutely right, like both of us made our bones to borrow a mafia expression when we started out writing about things that we really cared about, writing about things that we really loved. And like one of the things that Ben just said now that really resonates with me is the whole idea of like being a professional, right? Like, you know, you're if if you're a journalist, you have before anything else, you have a sense of responsibility to your craft as a journalist. And like there's probably no more debased word than like journalist when it c especially, you know, when it comes to consumer journalism. But like the reality is, like, if you're a carpenter, you take pride in being able to measure and cut accurately. And if you're a writer, you should be able to take pride like no matter what you're covering, you should be able to say to yourself, I wrote good sentences. You know, but before the before whatever the subject matter is, it's good to have an instinct for what a good sentence is and it's good to have like a real commitment to that. But at the same time, like you can't fake genuine love for what you're writing about and like we love this like the the three of us, you know, like me, you James, and you Ben like we love these like weird little objects for some reason. Like they for some reason they just like strike a spark in us. And like it it's you know, it's true that like that that when that actu
James Stacy ally happens, it really And do you think that the job, the role, the scope of it has even changed that much in say the last uh ten years, or is it kind of the same stuff that would have worked in forming your base in this world would work to form someone's base now? Aaron Pow
Jack Forster ell Well I mean first of all I think the environment's changed dramatically, right? Like I mean, you know, 99% of watch discourse when I started writing about watches happened in print. And nowadays 99%nine per ofcent of- you know, I mean obviously ninety-nine percent of watch discourse happens now on the internet, so the environment's changed. Um we all live our lives like much, much more publicly. You know, I mean if like Ben writes something or you write something or I write something, you know, we're we're gonna hear about it from like fifty thousand people we don't know over a like a twenty four hour period, which is you know, which is weird. But the basic I think the basics still apply. Like good writing is always good writing, good storytelling is always good storytelling. And like you know when somebody discovers I don't know, like I mean I'm never going to discover the history of the Omega Speedmaster Professional for the first time ever again. Like that happened for me once and speaking of Chuck Maddox it happened because of Chuck Maddox. Like it happened not entirely because of him, but a lot because of him. Out there, there are people who are discovering like the Omega Speedmaster Professional for the first time. They're discovering how cool uh uh the history of the GMT Master is for the first time. There are like, you know, serious mechanism nerds out there who are discovering like how an escapement works for the first time and they're like, oh, that's how a watch works. This there's this like bizarre thing called an escapement with these like weird little pieces that interact with each other in this way that it took me three days of like nonstop mental effort to understand. But like now I get it. Like that stuff is still happening. And that's actually like that's not a bad thing. That's it's one of the things that makes like starting to write about watches actually like fun and exciting. And like, you know, Ben before was talking about how valuable it was for him to kind of like not know who had come before and to just like, you know, you know, do his own thing like right from the outset and not try to imitate anybody. And like I mean, I think one of the things that like writers do no matter what kind of writing it is, whether it's like writing fiction or writing nonfiction or writing about watches, like it's a really dangerous thing to know who your ancestors are because you can waste 10 years of your life trying to imitate them before you realize that you shouldn't be trying to imitate them. A
Ben Clymer aron Powell That's exactly it. And I've seen it even within our own team, you know, in our couple of Slack saying, oh, we're going to X, Y, and Z because so-and-so wrote about it two years ago. And it's like, sure, but I mean that that I I understand that it's a story that fundamentally changed that that is somewhat sound, but but not even. I think that there's so many different vantage points out there. And I think what's frustrating obviously is when people do exactly what you've done before, or when we do something exactly that somebody said before. But Jack and I being completely different types of writers, uh, and completely different types of, you know, kind of air quotes experts, I think is you know, we're great archetypes here because like if you wrote a story let's say jack is assigned to write an in-depth story on the long zone datagraph he would talk about the column wheel he would talk about the construction he talked to Anthony de Haas it would be a very technical piece if I had wrote about the the data graph which obviously we both have, it would be much more about you know how it came to be, what it means to collectors, why it languished uh you know under retail for so long and now it's surging. Like you know, there's different perspectives on anything, on everything. And then there are people that's a little bit of both, and then there are people that that only care about only the movement and then some people only care about collecting. And I think, you know, it it's just a matter of kind of putting your own spin on things. And and obviously the people that have succeeded the most in this space have really come to to approach things from a totally different angle. And now I think there's a lot of, you know, wannabe Jack Foresters out there. And I think there's a lot of like, you know, guys focused on collecting and all that. And I'm not saying we were the first at all. But I think, you know, if if you want to succeed in the space, you have to take a fresh angle. Like, you know, you know, for better or worse, Hodinki has covered a lot of shit in its 13 years, you know, and you know, a lot of it isn't online anymore. But like, you know, if you're gonna talk about a space duel, they're like, talk about something new on the space duel. Talk about like some new information. You know, being the first to put it online is no longer enough, you know
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Ben Clymer I mean like I say that jokingly, but like that is a hundred percent true. It's so true. Yeah, like I we've dedicated our lives to talking about things that like truly nobody needs at all. And in fact, like maybe the world may or may not be better without. I I think that's you know, uniting here. But I think a lot of it, and you know, I I know we've talked about this a lot in the past, James, and with some other writers, like I want people to be able to understand that like the equation of what the the the kind of brands need, what collectors need, what we as journalists, like we're all looking to accomplish something. And sometimes that those kind of ideas align and sometimes they don't. I think navigating that is really, really difficult. And there are some fantastically knowledgeable experts. I'm going to call them experts out there that may or may not be able to turn a word that don't know how to kind of understand the different stakeholders within the watch world, and again, there's collectors, there's retailers, brands, distributors. There's so many people at stake here, and uh, I think it's really important that that people come in with with respect for all sides of that, and I think uh that sometimes I've I've seen a lot of people kind of burn out really quickly because they didn't acknowledge that like some other folks in you know in the equation exist.
Jack Forster I mean I think that Ben's absolutely right. Like you want to be able to deliver like the most important stakeholder, obviously is the reader if you're writing if you're if you're writer, if you're writing about watches or cars or you know, whatever it is, the most important stakeholders is the reader. But there are a lot of other people whose livelihood might depend on what you write. And you know, I've like talked to critics who write about cars. I've talked to restaurant critics like you know, like a restaurant critic can destroy a restaurant. A restaurant critic can destroy like five years of work in somebody's life and, you know, endless meetings that they have had to try to raise money to open a restaurant that they didn't have because like honestly they'd rather be back in the kitchen cooking than like talking to investors. But like it's not about flattering people and it's not about like playing footsie with brands and it's not about like you, know, trying to suck up to like the PR officer or suck up to the you know to the marketing department. It's just about like realizing that like we're everybody who works in the watch industry, every single person who works in the watch industry, they could probably be making more money working someplace else. Like people work in the watch industry because they care about watches
Ben Clymer . Except for you, James. James, you're making the most you possibly can right here. Don't go anywhere. Right? We love you. I think that might actually be true
James Stacy . I was about to jump in. I didn't want I didn't want to step on it. Yeah, no, I
Jack Forster I For like the humanity and hard work of the other people who are in the same business you are, I think that's really, really, really important. And you know, especially when on the internet like you know, this there's this whole idea that hostility is conflated with honesty. Like you're not being like somehow you're you're being dishonest if you're not being like gratuitously hostile and negative on a regular basis. And it's just like first of all, it's not true. Secondly, that's a terrible presumption to bring in if you're a critic of anything, whether it's restaurants or watches or cars or whatever. You know, and thirdly it's like, you know, there are other human beings out there who are trying to you know, they're basically trying to make the world a better place for the same thing that you're trying to make the world a better place And you know, like there are times when we're all our own worst enemy. But you don't what what you wanna do as m I I think what you wanna do as much as you can is just recognize that we're all kind of trying to do the same thing. And that doesn't mean that you should say that like a watch is great if you think it's a shit watch. It doesn't mean that you, you know, should say that you think a design is great if you think it's like a terrible design. I mean like we've all seen designs that look like you know, basic,ally, oh, you look at this design, you see to yourself, okay, so clearly what happened was the design team wanted to take an early lunch on this one. You know, like it happens. But just sort of understanding the common ground we all have, you know, like to Ben's point, I think is like I think it makes it makes a difference. And it's one of the things that gives a person uh longevity as a writer, as a content
James Stacy creator in this space. In my mind, the the thing that has always stood out, and and I definitely learned this from from a lot of the core team at Hoodinky, but then I was listening to a podcast recently with a buddy of mine, Johnny, who's a prolific car writer, Johnny Lieberman. And he was saying that when he first got into car writing, his kind of mentor laid out the the kind of balance between positivity and negativity in a review. And he said, look, when I when I come to any car and this is how I feel about watches, I want to love it. So if I end up not being able to love it, that's worth highlighting. But anything outside of that it can can can essentially form something that's not that valuable to someone who does love it or to the audience at large. And I think that's a neat way of looking at it. You know, I I'm curious because I I I want to keep some level like I I like the idea that someone listening to this might be able to get some motivation to to start their own thing or to invest in something or or whatever. And do you guys figure the move today would be to shoot to be the top dog at a major outlet? That would be you, Jack, or sort of start your the next major outlet like like you Ben, do you guys think that there's it that the there's one path or the other or it's just gonna depend on personality? Okay. I think
Ben Clymer uh I I I'm an entrepreneur for sure. And I think it would be it would be difficult for me to to not be that, you know. And but that that's certainly not for everybody. And like, you know, I I don't I I frankly don't know I would I if I would start Hodinky now again. But you know, for for me, I think you know it it just comes down to the ambition that you really have, and I think the ambition I've always had, as I've said somewhat recently, somewhere else, has really been you know fairly, fairly significant. And like I never wanted to be the biggest watch, whatever we are in the world, I never wanted to be the best watch writer, which I'm certainly not. Uh so no worries there. Uh I I wanted to kind of change things. I wanted to change people's perspective on what something is. And I think, you know, that that's the goal that that Hudinky has always had, and the goal that I've always had. So, and then there are people that believe in that mission. And if you believe in that mission, then I think working for us or working for somebody like us, I think makes a lot of sense. But it everyone is so different. And I think I know some people that just like are completely happy writing about watches and that's what they do all day and every day and they've got a good team and and life is good. I mean I always you know kind of like wanted something different and that's not certainly not for everybody. In fact it's not for most people. So it really just comes down to every individual. But I will say that like to make a name for yourself and watch writing right now, I think would be really challenging. I really do. And I think wa watch writing is one thing. Watch personality, that's a different thing. Like we've seen a bunch of YouTubers pop up, you know, over the past few years. And like, you know, they've got a good little thing going. I mean, is that a long term thing? Who knows? And if YouTube changes their algorithm or if YouTube you know goes into something where it's just not, you know, impactful anymore, then they don't have a job. So I think it's it's it's really it depends on on what your your goals are. But yeah, look, I I would encourage every people to try their own thing. I would encourage people to to to link forces with us or with with you know whoever else in in the space. There's a lot of different avenues there. And I think you know, uh there are different platforms that that offer different things to to different people. So it really uh you know, it this is like the lamest answer ever, but like everyone's different and you just have to figure out what what you know what makes sense for you.
Jack Forster You know, it's uh y you you uh just made an interesting distinction, Ben, that I think is worth talking about a little bit more, which is sort of like the difference between a watch personality and a watch writer. And th I'm thinking about that right now, um, you know and running like seven different like you know parallel tracks of analysis in my brain at the same time and like I mean they're they they seem uh I mean on one level they're really, really different. On another level, over the last like I don't know, three, four years maybe they've become more and more the same thing. And like I and like I honestly don't know
Ben Clymer how I feel about that. Well, I mean the thing is uh you know, and I I say this sincerely, like you are a like top tier writer. Right. And I think, you know, if if you if if you two were your medium 20 years ago, I think you would certainly be one of those folks. But like you have a skill set that is dramatically different than than most people and my myself included. Like I'm a pretty good writer. You're a very good writer. And that there's a there's a huge gap between between that. And then there's the people that that call themselves writer because they know about watches. And I think you know, you and I, we've been working together for a long time now. We've come across so many people that are hyper-knowledgeable about watches but cannot turn a sentence to save their life. And being a watch writer is exceedingly difficult. And you know, creating a word on on on paper or you know on the web that that gets people excited is is so difficult when there's not, you know, when you don't have the benefit of having a YouTube camera or a video camera on you where you can be super animated. Yeah, I I'm not surprised to hear that
Jack Forster that is frustrating. Well I mean it's not frustrating necessarily. I just kinda have mixed feelings about it because I mean, l let me uh analogize to the food writing world, you know, for a little bit. Like I mean, you know, way way back in the day, you have people who are considered great food writers in the nineteen forties, nineteen fifties, nineteen sixties when like America was first discovering French cooking, right? You had like people like you know like James Beard and A.J. Liebling, an M. FK.. Fisher, you know, these were people who really kind of like, you know, were can considered writing as more kind of fundamental in a certain way to what they were doing than like knowledge about food. And then like, you know, fast forward to you know the two thousands and like and Anthony Burdain is a really interesting example because he was a fantastic writer I think he was he I mean whether or not he rose to the level of greatness as a writer is you know something that people can debate. He was a very, very prolific writer and, he was super entertaininging. And like be like, and the truth is, if you're a writer, you're in the entertainment business, and like being entertaining kind of like trumps everything else. But he was super entertaining, he was a great on-screen personality, and he was one of those rare people who was like good on camera, good at the keyboard, and uh, you know, who I am one of millions of people who wishes that he were still in the business. But like that's a rare thing. And usually people are good at, you know, like they might be really great on camera, they might be great as a personality, but like putting a sentence together on a page much less stringing a bunch of sentences together on the page, much less doing that two to three times a week on a regular basis is like that's that's a whole nother thing. But you can't like I think it's really hard to just be a
James Stacy a good writer anymore. Aaron Powell I would also argue that the the part that I've seen other people, I've met people who are perfectly capable writers, even talent I would say talented writers, but couldn't manage all the other stuff that was required to put their writing where it needed to be. They couldn't interface with editors correctly. They were sloppy on emails. They didn't stick to deadlines. You know, copy came in later wasn't that clean. If you make other people's jobs easier, it can give you more space to l have time to become a better writer. I think and and I'm just saying that from my side, I I think I've been given better jobs than I necessarily earned just based on my sentences because I was willing to, you know, get on a phone call and explain myself. I was willing to reply to an email quickly. I didn't miss a deadline. Like the some of the simple background craft can really separate those who have something to say and those who end up being able to say it for years. I think I
Ben Clymer think look I mean life is you know there are very few roles, jobs in life where like you like your job is really one thing, you know? It's like I in fact I probably couldn't even come up with one. You know, like everything re it involves politics to some degree and interpersonal skills and you know, the idea that like if you want to succeed, everyone around you, you know, should should want you to succeed as well. Otherwise you have no chance. And I think that that's kind of a hard lesson to be learned by by a lot of folks, you know, usually younger folks. But yeah, I mean, look, I I think, you know, Jack doesn't exist in a corner by himself, right? Like Jack interacts with you guys and myself and other executives and brand people. And like, you know, if if Jack was an asshole to people, then Jack wouldn't be Jack, you know? And I think the same is true for for me. And you kind of are an asshole to people and yet you're silly. I don't know. Yeah. People see the Canadian thing and I just get away with a lot for sure. You get a pass, yeah, exactly. No, I mean it's there there's there's no I mean look, I mean how many you know how many well known people have been taken down in Hollywood and and elsewhere simply because they were assholes and like people get the shot in Freuda and say, you know, like fuck this guy. You know, like even if he is talented, like we're happy to see him fail. And so yeah, I mean it's just like being positive. And I think you know Jack made a really good point, the the idea of like, you know, just being like hyperbolically critical of things like that, that doesn't show much at all. You you know know,? Like we can all be an asshole about anything. Like I'm drinking this stupid polar seltzer cranberry lime thing. Like this is not my favorite thing. I could rip this thing apart, but like it's fine. It's just whatever. It's it's it's it's keeping me hydrated right now. Yeah, it's there's so much more to life than just being good at one thing and certainly watch writing. Like there's not that many people out there that wanna pay anybody to be a watch writer. So like let's make it friendly and fun and you
James Stacy 'll you'll be okay. Do you guys think it it's crucial that you have a skill set beyond writing, whether it's photography or the ability to be a host or maybe background stuff. Let's say you're you're a really good photo editor, but maybe you don't run a camera or like the because to do something like a Hodenky thing, you have these multiple vectors. Obviously, you need the words, the paragraphs, the rest of it, and an understanding of how to put that together. But I feel like that's like the roots. The the tree kind of comes with everything else. Uh it's a it it takes a lot. Yeah, I think I think James,
Ben Clymer James and Jack, both of you guys are really in a better position to answer this than I am, right? Like James, you are currently hosting a podcast, which I'm sure was not part of your job description when when we hired you. You know, you've done some amazing video work, including the the epic uh tutor Blackbay GMT, which people still talk about. Like you are a writer, certainly. You you cut podcasts. I know you you've cut this and the the Great NATO in the past. Like you you do a lot. And I know you know Jack does his Hey Ho Dinky thing and talking watches and weak on the wrist, as well as appearing here and writing. So I think that's just the nature of media today.
James Stacy But I mean how do how do you feel about that? Uh I yeah, I I think unless you have a very specific idea of what it is like I could see saying like I my goal is to be a host, to to be the person that's in front of the camera or the person that's on the microphone and then if you were so compelling, if you're if you had such personality and and take and had the right network of people there supporting you, that could work. And and I see you see that on YouTube for sure. But I think in many ways w,hether you want to get into watches or cars or almost anything, if you're talking about media, the more that you know how to do, the the higher the level of your control and perfectionism can kind of influence the media's endpoint. And that that's how I see it is if I can if I can touch more of the knobs on on you know the the dials and the switches and stuff as something goes through its processes, the more it feels like it was mine. And and it there's a selfishness to the way that I see some of the work, but I like it that way. Yeah.
Ben Clymer But I think about even if we if we you know pull things back and and talk about people that are far more successful than anyone here, like look at our friend Gary Stein, who is an incredible author, like a true author. I mean he's out there on the road promoting his book and he's doing signings and readings all all over the world and he's been on talk shows and he's been on our show and to take it a step even further you know somebody who i'm and I mean this sincerely a big fan of is Taylor Swift right like Taylor Swift is one of the most famous people on earth, she's a singer and songwriter. S washe on Saturday Night Live over the weekend. She's released two films over the past three days. She's on TikTok and Instagram. Like, she's a singer-songwriter. Does she need to do all that? Like she kinda does. You know, does she have to? No. But like to be the the Taylor Swift that the world now knows, you do have to do that. So I I don't think there's any job out there where like you are you have a solitary purpose and that is all that that you do. Oh
Jack Forster I agree a hundred percent. I mean uh you know the days when you could it's it's funny I was having a conversation Ben mentioned Nick Marino uh earlier, who is SVP for content for Hodenky, and uh I was having a conversation with him a couple of days ago and we were talking about, you know, he spent a lot of time in the print world, spent a lot of a lot of time in the magazine world, and you know, like the whole idea that you would have somebody, that you would have a writer file a story and then ask them to uh do layout for the story for a print publication,. L likeike what a hilariously bad idea. Like, you know, back in like 19 like like back in the 1960s, 70s, 80s, like 90s, like for most of the history of print, like the whole idea that a writer would have a single word to say that would be worth listening to about how a story was laid out was like a hilariously terrible idea. Like that's not that's not their skill set. Like people go to school to figure out how to do like layout well. And y and you can't do that anymore. You know, and we're in a world now where like I mean the three of us all have had to make decisions about who to send on a story, and like the truth is, like, do you send the guy who can just write, who's a really good writer but who can only write, or do you send the guy who's a good enough writer who can also take great pictures? You know? Like you send the person who uh you are reasonably sure is going to get you what you need that's the small, you know, that's that's not a pain in the ass to work with. And like, you know, if if you if if you if you have to figure out like I mean like like let's let's say we're covering a watch event in Geneva. Okay. So we send a writer, we we have confidence in them as a writer, but they can't take a picture. That means immediately that means that things just became five times more complicated because we can't use anybody in the US. We have to figure out who to hire to freelance in Switzerland for us. And you know, like I mean Hodinki obviously we have people that we're comfortable working with, but you know, in principle this is like a much more complicated thing to do all of a sudden. Then you have to get pictures from them and like maybe they're good at taking pictures, but they don't really spend enough time on Houdinky to understand what the crit you know, what the standards are and the criteria are for image quality and for editing. And so that means that like maybe you have to bring somebody else in, you know, to do quality control on their images. And then their images and the copy have to go to somebody else who has to proofread the copy and who has to load the images and uh copy into the site and then be able to look at the final product and say to themselves in terms of layout, which is a whole another different skill, okay, this works. So like imagine that situation because now you've got like five different people who at least who have to have hands-on on this thing to make sure that they're producing something that is like good quality standard for the site and that you're happy with. But suppose, just for argument's sake, that you have like one person who can like write a good story, who can take a great picture, and who can lay a story out in the in the C in the CMS and the content management systems uh so that it looks good, you know, when you publish. And like if you're the editor, all you have to do is look at it and say, hey, this looks pretty good. Oh, there's a period missing. You know, like at that point you've got 15 minutes worth of work out of your day and you've like worked with one person instead of three to four days working with like five different people. And like if you are a person who can like make your editor's life, your producer's life like that much easier, you're gonna get work
Ben Clymer . And you're and you're gonna get a lot of it. Yeah, I I think that's true. And then I think it like the there's that and like you know, I I think you know in in my ear early days I was a web designer, a writer, a photographer, an editor, all all that stuff. And then and then you know, when when you guys came around and other folks came around, like my kind of like responsibilities got got dialed back and I think like I think I mean as an example I think everyone on this little zoom call would fancy themselves a photographer right I think that that's fair enough and then you go out and you meet somebody like I don't know Scott Schumann right who literally you know the sartorial is too literally like that. what Is he does all day, every day. Like, whoa, like that, that is a different level of photographer. And like being able to say, like, hey, like, I'm gonna take a pretty cool picture, and this works for the story that we're writing on the new whatever Omega Speedmaster. That's one thing, or or Tiffany, who's on our team, who is a professional photographer. You know, the the understanding of your own limitations and how that works and kind of like the greater ecosystem is really important. And we've seen people and many people that you guys certainly know that kind of came into our organization and thought they could do really do everything to the nth degree. And, you know, we don't want to push anybody down, but like, you know, we there's a certain like, you know, so much of what we seek to achieve with Hodinki is really be top, top, top, top tier in everything that we do. And that means hiring professional photographers when we think that we can shoot it ourselves, you know. And that that's myself included in that for sure. Ye
James Stacy ah. I mean I very humbling. You know, that you mentioned Tiffany. Tiffany's very talented and it's been really excited to see uh her work developed for the site and everything. But back in the day, Ben, you and I traveled to Virginia to cover the uh McLaren F one for the magazine, volume five of the magazine. And I remember us being d distinctly butthurt that I wasn't allowed to also shoot the b the car. I had shot cars before at a professional level, and uh and I didn't understand your decision. And honestly, it wasn't until I was there watching the ever-talented Josh Perez do his work that I fully understood why I I was there to to soak things in and develop a perspective for a story. And if I had had to do Josh's job and the story, it would the end result would have been less. So it it can make sense to divide that up and understand what people's strengths are and really just what your job is. And and and to listen to somebody who's been around the block before and you can learn from. In that case, uh, Ben, that was you, and and has been many times in in the humbling points in my career. And I think that's good. That's it. That's how you grow and get better. And I I'm very cognizant of my own um you know shortcomings. Uh you know and and that story turned out I think quite well. And certainly the images were lovely. And and we had just a nice time with Josh, which also a good day to have, right? Josh is great. He really is
Jack Forster . George Daniels once uh said of uh Ferdinand Bertus certainly he had a very high opinion of his own work. And um I think that's like that's definitely a character flaw that I share. Like but the reality is like I can take an okay watch picture on a good day under controlled circumstances. You know, with like good light and a tripod. But like I you know I like I look at Tiffany's stuff who's like a professional like an actual professional product photographer who learned really, really, really quickly how to take not a good picture, but a great picture of a watch. And like there was a learning curve for her too, because it's like what do people want to see when they look, you know, what does somebody who loves watches want to see when they look at a series of pictures of watches? But like I look at her stuff and I look at my stuff and I'm like Yeah, you know, I mean like fake it till you make it and you never made it. You know, you can get a really long way with persistence and a really long way with paying attention to sort of the quality of what you're doing. But it's like it's beyond a certain point it helps to have talent and like I just feel like she sees stuff that I just don't.
James Stacy Yeah. I mean that that's that's why that's why she's here and she's doing good work for sure. So I, you know, uh we're we're nearly out of time. I want to uh I want to do a little bit of a summarize. Like uh obviously we're saying I think that the word here is it rec we recommend being a generalist, but not not necessarily in terms of your perspective or your passion. Those things can be focused and and that's quite crucial probably to developing a voice and that sort of thing. Learn how to work with others if that's not something that's been required of you in the past. Uh this isn't a job that works really well from a totally siloed sort of perspective, especially if you want to rise to a certain level, you'll be part of a team and uh and try and develop as many of the skills as possible, but also know when it's time to let uh let the person who's even better at it, you know, take control of the camera or the microphone or or whatever it may be. Uh, you know, if you guys were able to jump back, Ben, you would mention not even being sure if you would start Hodinky. But let's say let's let's get that little part out of the side so we still have this podcast in this augmented timeline. I'm suggesting. If you could go back to when you were first really uh digging in being a web designer and the photographer and the rest of it, and and if if is there anything you would want to say to yourself to try and fast track or or just have a better perspective on kind of what the trajectory might be. Yeah, I I've
Ben Clymer said this probably too many times on this podcast, but bringing in guys like you earlier, you know, partners and friends and and Ennery and Russell and investors even, you know, people that that had different perspective and different skill set. And I think realistically, like I I was working way too hard on this thing for way too long. And I think that that not only, you know, really kind of stunted me personally, but I think stunted the business in in a way that wasn't necessary. Like I think Hodinki, you know, where we are now and where we were 10 years ago, like obviously dramatically different, but like we're still the same company. And we could have been here, you know, year years ago. And I think, you know, certainly no regrets, but I think you know opening up the business and opening up what I was doing to other people sooner would have been advantageous, no no question
Jack Forster . I mean, when you're young you want to be a star. You want to be the star. And the truth is that's not the way media works. I mean, it can work it it can work that way to a certain extent, but uh you know, and this is just like my take on what Ben just said, but like, you know, the truth is like nobody does it alone. And I think the two biggest cutoffs that I've seen people kind of build into their own professional lives and not address is like number one, just in general being like difficult to work with, if you're a pain in the neck to work with, sooner or later people are gonna find somebody else to work with. And you know, kind of connected to that is that if you are part of a team, your job is to make your team look good. And if what you do is make the people that you work with feel like you have their back and make them feel like you want them to become better at what they do and like you actually like you genuinely care about them as a person and you genuinely care about them feeling good about their quality of work and and making it better, that's gonna that's gonna that's gonna take you a long way. And the last thing that I'll say is like writers hate to be edited. You know, like the history of every kind of writing is full of writers who are like, who the f are you to edit me? You know, I just like I just read this like hilarious email thread uh from um a guy who writes about restaurants. I'm I'm like fascinated with restaurant writers in the UK especially because they're it's like one of the most wonderfully bitter, angry genres of writing in the ex- in the whole existence of consumer journalism, but there's this like guy who's a really well-known British restaurant critic who tore a sub-editor at the paper that he writes for, a new one, for taking the article A out of one of his sentences. That's that's like the only change he made. That's the only change that this pushmuck made, who's probably like barely making enough to afford like getting to and from work and buying like one beer once a week. And he got this like angry, like torrentially angry, like toxically angry email, you know, from this like star writer who it's his job to edit because he like honestly made one tiny, tiny change that he thought was worth making. And like, you know, we've all done that like I have been like you know over the last 20 years I've gotten like toxically angry a few times at people who edited me who I feel like had no like had no right to edit me but like the truth is if you're not willing to be edited you are never gonna grow as a writer. It's just not gonna happen.
James Stacy Well, sage advice from both of you. Thanks uh as always for being on the show. I think this is a fun one. I hope it helps to answer that question, which is I I think a pretty common one. I get it uh with some frequency. How do I get into this? Where would I start? Should I start my own blog? Should I just, you know, go right to the YouTube thing? And I think follow your gut is is a big one. If there's a point in the media profile that that seems to suit you, go there, but don't ignore the rest of it. Try and be well rounded. Oh, you know what? Learn French. Oh, that's a great one. That's a great tip. I wish I had done that even without writing but watches. I totally squandered that option that I had in high school. Like of the three of us, none of us speak French
Jack Forster . I have like a great French accent, but it's it's basically like a it's basically like a comedian imitating a French accent on like network TV in the nineteen sixties. Jack after Martini number four or five your French gets pretty good. Yeah, but it's like after like Martini number three or four or five after like two to three weeks in Switzerland. Like that just like doesn't that doesn't happen often enough to make me a French speaker
James Stacy . Yeah, the sleep deprivation strengthens the uh the uh extralingual skills is for sure. Well, this has been great gu,ys. Uh, thanks so much for coming on the show. I appreciate it. And uh if you're listening and you're enjoying it, please uh tell a friend. Can't ask for anything more than that. And otherwise, we'll see you in the comments and we'll chat to you next week. Peace.