Only Watch, Mega Auction Results, And The Why Of The GPHG¶
Published on Fri, 12 Nov 2021 18:00:00 +0000
Big days in Geneva, and we were there for it.
Synopsis¶
In this special episode of Hodinkee Radio, hosts James Stacy, Jack Forster, and Logan Baker dive deep into the remarkable results from Geneva's fall auction week, including the record-breaking OnlyWatch 2021 charity auction and major sales from Phillips and Christie's. Logan reports live from Geneva, where he witnessed firsthand the electric atmosphere as OnlyWatch raised 30 million Swiss francs, bringing the charity's total to 100 million francs since 2005 for Duchenne muscular dystrophy research.
The discussion highlights standout pieces from OnlyWatch, including independent watchmakers like Akrivia, Constantine Chaykin's innovative Martian tourbillon, and Krayon's technical sunrise/sunset complication. The hosts celebrate how the event has become a showcase for independent watchmaking, with notable results including Tudor's Black Bay GMT selling for 650,000 CHF and Baltic's pulsometer chronograph achieving 50,000 CHF—a remarkable achievement for a micro-brand. The team also discusses the FP Journe and Vaucher collaboration, as well as collector Claude Sfeir's enthusiastic bidding on Tudor pieces.
Moving to the traditional auctions, the conversation covers Phillips' marathon six-hour sessions featuring the record-breaking Omega Speedmaster tropical dial that became the most expensive Omega ever sold at auction for 3 million CHF. Philippe Dufour pieces commanded extraordinary prices, with the Grande et Petite Sonnerie reaching 4.75 million CHF. The hosts debate whether auction premiums should count toward records and discuss surprisingly modest results for Rolex Deep Sea Special commemorative pieces. They also touch on the Grand Prix d'Horlogerie de Genève (GPHG) awards, debating the show's evolving relevance, its Academy voting structure, and Bulgari's Octofinissimo Perpetual Calendar winning the top Aiguille d'Or prize, while acknowledging both the event's importance and its limitations in representing the full breadth of the industry.
Links¶
Transcript¶
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| James Stacy | This episode of Hodinki Radio is proudly brought to you by Grand Seiko and the GHPG award winning SLGH005. Part of Grand Seiko's Heritage Collection, the SLGH O five has a dial meant to invoke the graceful serenity of white birch. Please stay tuned for more information later in the show or visit grand-seco.us.com for more Hey, it's me, James Stacy, and in this surprise extra episode of Hunokie Radio, we're discussing the latest action out of Geneva following this past week's massive kind of record-setting sales from OnlyWatch and a handful of the major players in the fall auction calendar. Joining me today in the fray is our EIC Jack Forster and our man on the front lines in Geneva, Logan Baker. Logan, what's the scene in Geneva today? And you know, how tired are you? Uh I am what time is it in your brain? |
| Logan Baker | I'm not sure if uh time exists anymore, but I I I don't think I'm the only one that feels that way. Um, you know, I know James, you just got back from Germany so uh starting to get back to the that grind of international travel which is uh a lot of fun but even in in Geneva I think the vibe is uh people are starting to feel a little tired uh after the craziness of Friday and Saturday during the first sessions of Phillips and at OnlyWatch, uh where we saw some really, really impressive, you know, numbers. Uh I think things slowed up a bit on Sunday during session two of Phillips and uh earlier today at Christie's Rare Watches. We'll get into that a bit more later, but uh I think that's kind of the vibe out here in S |
| James Stacy | witzerland. Yeah, so that is kind of the layout. Um, and I wanted to have you guys on. Obviously, Jack, you have experience with kind of all of these things, both remotely and in person over the years, but OnlyWatch was huge this year. It in many ways it kind of feels like this whole idea of OnlyWatch has really hit like a zenith where people everyone kind of understands. The brands that are involved are really turning out interesting, fun watches and the response from people who want to get one of these really cool one of one watches and support a charity. Everybody seems to be on board with the concept and and it's not something we get to do every year. So I definitely think it's worth some time. And then we'll definitely get to the auctions because there was some really crazy stuff. I I mean I've been saying pandemic pricing for a year, but maybe we're still seeing kind of the long tail of that effect. How about we start with uh with only watch? You know, it was fifty three watches uh from a variety of brands. You're talking everything from you know Baltic all the way up to uh Ottomar Peggy and Patek and things like this, and and a lot of independence, which I think is why this can be kind of as interesting as it is. It's cool when a big brand with a lot of power flexes and makes some wild clock or whatever. But it's it's a little bit different when you get to deal with brands that you kind of know that for them to make it, they had to stop doing something else. And and like sure, it earned great money and and everything, but it's not like a normal sale where we're like this is going towards something. And when you say towards something, ninety-nine percent of the twenty-nine million seven hundred and forty thousand CHF goes towards supporting Duchenne muscular dystrophy. So I I think it's worth a chat. Uh w what do you guys think of this? What do you think what what do you think of the success this year? Well uh I have to say first of all, Luke Pet |
| Jack Forster | avino is one of uh one of my heroes uh in the business. Um the fact that he you know, puts this thing together every year, has a personal stake in it, and is so completely selfless about the time, energy, and effort that he puts into organizing it is uh amazing. And um I think that the degree to which the watch industry kind of like especially the independence, you know, I mean, uh brands really, really do get behind supporting this. It's a really, really worthwhile cause. And we're at a time in research into therapies for Duchesne muscular dystrophy where we're actually getting to it in spin spitting distance of effective therapies and uh every single penny counts. So um, you know, I mean, I take my hat off to them and uh to OnlyWatch and to all of the participants because uh there is no single more worthwhile uh auction to support and uh to pay attention to, I think, uh in |
| Logan Baker | the entire in the entire calendar. Yeah, um agreed, Jack. I this is the first time I had a chance to meet Luca Petovino in person, and I was just uh flabbergasted by how um kind he was. I mean it really just kind of radiates out of him and that's not always the the vibe you get from random people you meet in Geneva. And so I was really, really impressed just um out of kind of what he has created and how he really leads the the organization and the whole auction with uh with kindness in his heart. And you know, this year the all the watches together reached uh 30 million was francs, which I will note the 2019 auction, the the paddock Grandmaster Chime by itself reached a higher figure at 31, which I think is just interesting in itself because that is obviously the the most expensive amount ever paid for a watch uh at any one time. But uh all in since 2005 with 30 million from uh this year, OnlyWatch has raised $100 million for Ducian muscular dystrophy, which is just incredible. I mean, I can't think of uh another space in the watch industry where there is more good being done than only watch once every two years. And we also get to see some really interesting, incredible watches out of it that kind of can make or break trends for the the next few years. I mean it is kind of |
| Jack Forster | fantastic, right? You can uh you can you I mean, there there's a lot of good being done, like a lot of good being done by uh an incredibly wonderful human being. Uh and the watches are pretty fantastic. |
| James Stacy | Yeah. What ones kind of stood out for you? I think it it's kind of fun because these are this theoretical thing. These are new watches. That's not vintage. We're not questioning the provenance of any of this. We're not, you know, we're not looking into the histories or the claims or the conditions of the cases. It's just like they're all new watches and but there's only ever going to be one. So you can just you kind of are forced to either fully ignore it, which I don't think you can when you're talking about a hundred million dollars earned through this program. Hundred million Swiss francs. It's a $110 million dollars. And then not even that if you if you like watches, there's kind of something here for everyone. It doesn't really matter what your taste is. There's some really chill stuff. There's some really crazy stuff. My um last night I was scrolling through this trying to prep for it and my my daughter saw the uh the bell and Ross uh concept skull watch and and she was she was like, Do you have any skull watches? 'Cause kinda that's kinda that's kinda cool. And I was like, |
| Logan Baker | No, I don't have any skull watches. Speaking of that Bell and Ross, I was uh incredibly impressed uh at its result. I mean, I I think it was two hundred and twenty thousand Swiss francs. I was in the room and it was just, you know, nothing against that that watch, but I I was just looking around and just like, wow, this is uh it all it takes is two people of course to to really bit a bit a watch up but uh I feel like that was kind of the the vibe of the room. Everyone wanted something. And if uh if the Bell and Ross Cyber Skull, you know, with the the orange see through sapphires. If that's the one you want, then you're gonna go all the way to get it. Two hundred and twenty thousand Swiss francs. Wow. I me |
| James Stacy | an, let's face it, like at a conceptual level, it's a really cool watch. And I and I get why my why my kid likes it. Uh she has kind of wild taste and stuff and and you know maybe maybe the strap is the part that I would ask Bell and Ross if they could if they could get me a gray one or a a black one or something like that, the white. But I think it's really cool. And then when you look the other side it's it's kind of the the architecture of that movement really suits being used in in that format. There there's an artistry to it. So I think you gotta re gotta respect that. |
| Jack Forster | I thought about this a lot before jumping on to record this and I kind of have like three it's a three-way tie for me um between the accravia, the Constantinch and Mars Turbion, and uh the crayon everywhere. I mean, I think that they're really, really interesting watches from well, I mean the accrivia, first of all, is just like if you like uh uh just like a drop-adde beautiful, absolutely drop-dead beautiful watch. Like, you know, something where if you're like a watch enthusiast and somebody hands it to you, you're going to spend just like six literally six hours staring at it, unable to say a word that is equal to the beauty of the watch. Like that's definitely that's definitely it, you know, what's gonna happen. That's definitely one of them. And I really dig what Constantin Chagan is doing just because he's kind of a like, I don't think that there are enough absolute lunatics in the business. And I mean, like, what kind of nutcase goes to the trouble of making a turbion that actually rotates once every Martian minute? I mean, that is the most absolutely insane thing that I've heard of, like it probably in the entire history of the turbion. Oh, oh, we know the answer to that question. It's Constantine |
| James Stacy | Jacken. That's who's crazy enough to do that. The other thing I would note is this isn't a brand that I pay a ton of attention to. They have a really good time and I do really enjoy the Joker watches, but I say this a lot with a handful of brands. These are things you have to see in person if you can. Just for fun, even if you don't normally click on a Constantine Shaken or a Joker watch or anything like that, check this one out in the show notes. It's a really, really good looking watch. It's super modern. The the technical finishing is is like adds a lot of drama to the piece without a lot of color. I I think this is a very, very cool watch. And I think somebody may uh you know did a really nice job in um in uh w whatever it was that they uh whatever it was they paid for it, I |
| Jack Forster | 'm sure it was a an impressive amount. I it makes me wish that I were like a super wealthy James Bond villain so I could say things like how do you like my Martian turbine, Mr. Bond. And then and then crayon, I just Oh, the crayon, yeah. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, you know, I mean, uh doing um sunrise, sunset complications that work anywhere on Earth, like, you know, within reason. I mean, not prop not above the Arc Arctic Circle and not too close to the equator. But you know, I mean it's uh it's something that nobody had ever done technically before. The engineering is amazing, uh the movement finishing is really, really good. And um, you know, it's just it's just uh I mean Logan, one of the predictions that you made was that uh this was a time to shine for independence and I really feel like that was definitely true at Only Watch. I mean a Martian turbion. Come on, man. |
| James Stacy | It's cool. That crayon, the that one's looking at just worth just to see the back. The way that they finished it where normally you have Geneva stripes that are, you know, they're equal in straight and these kind of have a rippled effect, almost like a like after a uh stone hits a really flat surface of water and it looks remarkable. I wanna second kind of ever |
| Logan Baker | ything Jack just said. I mean uh if I had to pick three uh out of all fifty three lots, the the Crivia and the Constantine Chicken would be up there for me. And I will uh toot my own horn for a moment and say that I kind of uh in my Geneva auction week preview I. predicted that the Shakin might kind of go the distance as a watch that was kind of underrated going in and people we we might see it hit a really high number. And I believe it went uh 290,000 Swiss Swiss francs. So that that's just phenomenal. And uh I had spoken with uh Shaken over Zoom a few months ago for a story I was working on and this was the first time I got to meet him in person. And he's just like the the most unassuming Russian, you know, man that you you would never expect that all these kind of amazing creations have come out of his head, but but he really is just a guy creating watches. Oh, and one thing that I learned, this is totally off topic, but uh back when the AHCI first got a uh Instagram. Uh Constantine Shaken was the guy that that was running the Instagram and Facebook for the AHCI back in like 2010, 2011. So that's uh a little I I I just find that incredible. |
| James Stacy | To to that point, I mean, I don't think you look at something like like Acrivia or Chicken or Crayon, these are the lifeblood of of what's happening in watchmaking right now, and they have a heart and soul for watches, whether that's taking part in something like this or helping the AHCI run their Instagram, it it it seems like a crazy thing to say, but it I think it all adds up to the same kind of philosophy towards promoting watchmaking. |
| Jack Forster | Yeah, and like I mean nobody makes a Martian turbion because they got a bunch of people together in a boardroom and focus grouped what kind of turbion would be like the best thing for them to make commercially. You make a Martian turbion because like you you really want to make a Martian turbion. |
| Logan Baker | Oh, a hundred percent. And uh in speaking with him, you know, over the past few months when I've had the opportunity to, what's really become clear to me is that, you know, the Joker watches, the wristmons, those have allowed him to really step up his game and kind of approach his his technical watchmaking from an entirely new standard. I mean, the the other Martian watch that came out earlier this year, I think it was the Martian timer, that, you know, his ability to work on that as is because of the commercial success of the response series. I mean, if I remember correctly, 80% of his revenue these days is generated by by the response watches, which is you know, the Joker, the Mouse King, all these different pieces, the Minotaur that just came out. And because people are so enamored with those, he's able to really approach kind of the the high-end super technical watchmaking that he is so passionate about and and commercialize it and bring it to market, which is only good for the industry, independent watchmaking for him. You know, I I think that's fantastic. Whenever an independent can find something that you know will allow him to still work on like the things that he's really excited about in addition to making a lot of money, like that's that's incredible. Uh and I did just want to say the third, uh, the third only watch piece that really interested me would be the the Jorn and that was one that the Jorn Coppola complication which uh which uh yeah the hand uh such a wild I'm making a dumb hand thing into our Zoom call.' Its such a crazy mechanism. Goodness. Jack, James, and I all have our hands in the air right now. And that was one I have to say I wasn't uh incredibly enamored with at first, just seeing the renderings and whatnot. But uh as I started working on the story, uh, you know, kind of the behind-the-scenes look at the watch that we published last week, where I was able to speak with both uh Mr. Copula and Monsieur Jorn, uh, and being able to see the watch in person to photograph it, it is really, really impressive like the the watch in hand the depth that mr jorn was able to work out uh and the hand I mean the hand looks like a a comic book or something like it looks straight out of a straight out of some kind of artistic vision. Like Iron Man or something. Yeah, like Iron Man. Like an iron, like the hand to the his suit or whatever. Yeah, and and the detail is just fantastic. I mean, all heap glued and and the it's all so thin. I mean, uh, I can't remember the exact thinness, but it barely adds it's this basic caliber uh Jack, I think it's the thirteen twenty, the kind of flagship Zor Jorn caliber, is that |
| Jack Forster | right? Uh automatic FFC Octa caliber 1300.3 in 18K rose gold. Okay, so it's |
| Logan Baker | thir thirteen hundred. That's the flagship Juan Caliber, which is celebrating its twentieth anniversary this year. And uh his goal was and and not super thick, it's forty forty-two millimeters by ten point seven zero millimeters. Yeah, ten point seven. Super wearable. It's the size of a sea master. His goal was to um use the flagship octa caliber, the thirteen hundred, without adding like a bunch of additional thickness, without having to add like an extra uh mainspring or anything like that to generate the power. So there's a system of of four cams, which you can see on the lower right side of the watch and those are literally what controls the kind of uh articulation, the the upward and downward movement of each of the fingers. Uh and then the fifth one for the the thumb is not a cam, I believe. Uh I would have to check my notes, but it instead of like moving downward, it kind of swings in. So you'll you'll notice it's slightly different than the four main fingers. |
| James Stacy | The thumb kind of swings in. Yeah, I watched a video on how to read it and I don't remember anything from that video so I'm not sure how to read it but I'm sure you get used to that or or may or maybe you wouldn't like it that they paid a lot of money for it. I hope they wear it. And that |
| Logan Baker | uh that was literally Coppola's uh uh vision. Like he was just like he,y, Jorn, like, has there ever been a uh a watch that told time with a hand? And Jorn was like, What do you mean? All of the watches. Of course the watch watches have hands, yeah. And so uh Mr. Francis Jorkoppola was like, No, no, no. I mean, like, and and he showed me on Zoom, he was just like, well, one o'clock would be like this, two o'clock, three o'clock, four o'clock, five o'clock. And he just like broke down the entire system of how that watch tells time, like over a glass of uh his own wine uh in 2012 with Jorn in Napa Valley, just like he just was like, hey Jorn, like this is how it would tell time. And Jorn was like, that's interesting. And it took him um let's give it a try. Yeah, he was working on it in the background for a number of years, uh, and you know, kind of talking to uh Copper Law off and on about like kind of the progress, what was happening. And uh eventually uh Jorn told me about eight eight or so months ago he had finally kind of was happy with where it was, was finished with it. Uh, because he was never sure when he might be finished with it. So he got to the point where he was like, here we are. Let's do it. Uh and he was able to include it and only watch this |
| James Stacy | year. Uh the other one I really like, which is not normally my speed nor even a brand that I cover that or pay that much attention to, is that uh Girard Perigo casquette that they made with Bamford. It reminds me of the the MBF horological machine number five, which was again a uh a watch where you kind of viewed it from one side. It kind of had a gauge pod from a car, kind of an automotive style. And this Jar Perigo that they made with Bamford is um forged carbon, which is I have a huge love for for it, like composite similar stuff that they use in in a certain level of Lamborghinis and it just has this um texture to it that that is really special when in sunlight and things like that. And it it's just uh it's a really cool thing and it kind of has a little bit of the bull of a uh computron like uh some some pretty cool design there in a watch that I thought uh for not one of these ones that hit six, seven figures, but still deeply cool thing. The G |
| Logan Baker | P is based off an actual watch that they created in the the 70s.. Ye Yeahah. There is like vintage kind of inspiration there. And you know, I think all these watches are inspired by what was that uh paddock one-off prototype by the gentleman that invented the world timer. Yeah, it was uh Gilber |
| Jack Forster | t Albert and uh Gilbert Albert and uh Louis Cautier and uh the date was nineteen fifty-eight and uh it is the reference reference thirty-four fourteen. And it was a weird ass watch for Paddock to produce in 1958 |
| James Stacy | . We couldn't be more thrilled to have Gran Seiko supporting another episode of Hodinki Radio with the new SLGH005 from their heritage collection. Sporting a steel bracelet and a 40mm steel case, the SLGH005 is a truly special watch that recently won the men's top prize at the 2021 Grand Prix de Horollagerie de Genève. Meant to invoke the look of the white birch that grow near the Grand Seiko studio where the watch is made, the SLGH 005's textured dial glints in whites, silvers, and light grays with an astonishing effect. Tucked beneath that dial we find Grand Seiko's latest high beat 9SA5 automatic movement, which ticks at 36,000 vibrations per hour while supporting 80 hours of power reserve and excellent daily accuracy. Plus, you can see it all through a gorgeous display case back. With a retail price of $9,100, the SLGH005 is a handsome, subtle, and special watch that draws inspiration from Japan's own natural beauty and the fine craftsmanship inherent to all Grand Seiko timepieces. Check the show notes for more or visit grand-seiko.us.com for more details. And now, back to the show. You know, the next one that that really stood out to me, because I think it's it's kind of a special time for a different uh sort of kind of independent, more of a micro brand, is this performance of the uh the Baltic hitting fifty thousand uh Swiss francs. Uh th they've got to be just absolutely thrilled. At least I would be. So this is the pulsometer chronograph mono pusher. It's a really gorgeous kind of um like deep mid-century, even pre-mid-century sort of design, big open case back. And uh a really beautiful watch. But I mean, let's face it, Baltic makes really beautiful watches for eight, nine hundred dollars pretty frequently. Uh you can probably, you know, get in line and get one uh today, but not this one. Yeah, they used uh on 19 |
| Logan Baker | 40s Venus 150 movement for it. Yeah, I think uh that has to be a record for kind of the the this era of internet-based, small, uh independent brands, you know, kind of what we formerly might have described as micro brands. Might try not to use that term too much anymore. But, you know, congratulations to Etienne and team. I was texting with him briefly. You know, I think he's just ecstatic about how he's built up Baltic into kind of a a really important player in the industry that's gotten sign offs from, you know, John Goldberger that people are, you know, he's he's doing really well for himself and this has just solidified his position |
| James Stacy | uh even further. Yeah, no, it's an an impressive thing. And then you'll you eventually get to this really cool Octo QP, which sold for 220 K with a tantalum case and a navy blue dial. And that that also really speaks to me. Uh did you guys take a look at that one? Yeah, it's a beautiful |
| Logan Baker | watch. Yeah, super cool. Uh, you know, I was kind of watching that lot to see if it would be boyoed at all by the its performance at the GPHG where it won the Eguido or uh, which is basically, you know, the the best pitcher prize, the best watch of the year. And you know, it seems like it was. It's a beautiful watch on its own. Octophanicimo, perpetual calendar, thinnest perpetual calendar in existence. You know, Tantalum is just beautiful, you know, really kind of interesting weight to it. So I think whoever uh won that got it for a good price comparatively to everything else that was uh up for bidding. |
| James Stacy | So congrats to the the buyer. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, yeah, for sure. And then the the the other one we've got on the list here, and Logan, it sounds like you've got a story. Maybe you're sitting sitting right behind them. I will forever love Day Batoon and Vutalenan, and to see them drop something together, and you knew it wasn't going to be anything other than really, really wild. This kind of encapsulat Well, I |
| Logan Baker | I guess first I'll I'll break down this was the first only watch that I've had the pleasure of attending and I have never been to a event where it felt like there was more kind of important players in the watch industry in in one space. Like not even Basel, not even SIHH, not Watches and Wonders, uh, not GPHG just two nights before. I mean, this was the the an event where a lot of major brands were represented and they only brought their kind of seriously big name players. So like I look around and I see Laurent Ferrier, I see you know Max Buster sitting behind him, and they're not bringing their whole team of like PR comms people. There's just like one or two people per brand. And they're w they're all wearing their like best watch ever. I mean, I was sitting behind uh in addition to Kari, uh his daughter Pierre Jacques from Debatoon and one of uh his right hand people. So I have never seen so much kind of like heavy duty horror logical power in a single room. Uh but to get on to the point of Kari and and Day Batoon. Yeah, I mean you could just sense that they were smiling at the results. I mean, I was I I I will admit up front that I I thought the Rajp Rogpi Chronometry Contemporarine 2 was gonna be the number two independent after the Jorn, but the the Kari Wtun collaboration ended up beating that, which uh, you know, I'm ecstatic for them. I was just surprised that they kind of flip flop positions in that way. And yeah, they were just kind of like super happy. And uh after it reached the final price, they they they stood up from their seats and and shook hands and kind of looked around and smiled while everyone applauded. And you know, you really saw them kind of sink in just that their watch was worth that to to someone worth over a million dollars, that their collaboration achieved that for charity, that you know the the their names together can do |
| James Stacy | that. Yeah. It's a big moment. I was just saying a couple of complete powerhouses and it's so nice to see people who've worked so hard to get to where they are and and and really tried to change the game for the last twenty years and to see them be rewarded in in this way and in a public way. That just sounds that sounds like a nice moment in the movie about that somebody might make about Only Watcher or or one of these brands someday. Yeah. And on a |
| Logan Baker | uh similar note, I was uh I could see uh Xavier, the CEO of Tropic, uh kind of across the room, perfectly where from I was it. That sunrise is beautiful. Beautiful. And the Ratrapont is super, super cool. They came out with the production version that famously sold out in a single hour at Genevieve Watch Days. And uh I could see him when his uh watch came out when the sunset came up for bib and he was just had the biggest smile I have ever seen just the entire time and uh he when uh when the the bidding finally closed he just he put two hands up in the air and was like you could just see how much it meant to him. And and from a like a lot of these independents look at this as a kind of branding moment as well. I mean, of course, it's amazing the watches, what it does for charity, but when they reach a particular price at OnlyWatch, it signifies strength in the brand as a whole and can lead them to maybe take more risks into the future and and it it boyus the the secondary market for those pieces. OnlyWatch can be kind of a linchpin of how an independent might perform in the next two years. I mean, we've seen it with Jorn uh over the past five years, his his pieces have increased and increased in value. Of course, there's other elements at play, and uh it's not kind of uh a a Bible for each brand, but I really think OnlyWatch is an opportunity for these independents to kind of set themselves up for the the next two years in the the |
| James Stacy | public eye. Yeah I absolutely agree. And and the other side of this is it sounds like and and I I'm reading between the lines only a little bit here, but like, you know, you go to these things, whether it's an industry auction or even some like industry large scale kind of presentation based events. I've not been to only watch to be clear, but it sounds like this has a general, like good vibe, excited, fun feeling. And a lot of them are like quiet, kind of tense. If you've ever been at the at an auction, and we'll get to some of these auctions, and you've been in the room, it really depends on who's running the auction. Sometimes they're fun. RL does a really nice job like making it fun sometimes, or at least making jokes about people. So you kind of like you're on your toes. Like, is he gonna say something about me if I drop my pen or something like that? A lot of these can be kind of like somber, quiet, you know, the loudest sound you hear is somebody opening up a a a a bottle of very room temperature Perrier. Of twenty five franc Coke Zero. Yes, yes, again. But the big thing is not the money, it's the fact that it's it'll be warm. But yeah, but beyond that, it's just sounds like fun fun to have this sort of thing happen and it seems a little bit more lighthearted than some of these other things. And then when you see the results, you realize not only are they not messing around, maybe they're suggesting that we we should all be having more fun than maybe we are otherwise, like with without this sort of uh |
| Jack Forster | this sort of impetus. Aaron Powell I mean I think Logan uh made an excellent point a couple of minutes ago about uh only uh about OnlyWatch being a place for independence to shine and for it being a place where they can really leverage exposure into um, you know, greater financial viability for the brand, greater visibility. It's a great certainly it's a great marketing move or a a great marketing event if you have a a good result for for a watch and only watch and you're an independent. But like I'm wondering, you know, I'm I'm I'm this is going back to the story that you published earlier this week, Logan, about, you know, your your predictions about the auction season. Like I would do you think that the pendulum is going to swing back a little bit in terms of higher results, a little bit away from some of the blue chip brand name driven stuff that we've been seeing so much of over the last few years? And people are going to start going to the independence because like I mean you know, beyond a certain point, you know, two million dollars, three million dollars, four million dollars for like rear paddocks, rear Rolexes, you know, what have you. I mean, that can that can get like a little |
| James Stacy | monotonous almost? Definitely desensitized at this point. Like I was you know, scrolling through some of the results that we'll talk about in a few minutes here and just kind of like how do I tell if this is special or if it's just kind of like last time |
| Jack Forster | ? Yeah, and I feel like I mean, you know, with I mean it's always dicey with uh uh with with the independence because you don't know I mean, are they gonna be around in ten years? Uh am I buying something that is impressing me just because of novelty value? But I really feel like Logan was on to something with that particular I mean, well, in general with with that that story, but prediction in general, because like I remember when the first big wave of independent watchmaking in the early 2000s came through and uh, you know, uh I mean there was just like jaw-dropping stuff every five seconds, like okay, half the stuff didn't work. But it was like you know, but but it was it was just amazing to see, you know, people making an effort and like I don't know, maybe people are looking for like a little bit more sort of real creativity and and like real authentic watchmaking content. |
| Logan Baker | I think you're absolutely right, Jack. And um, you know, for me personally, the independence have always been an area where I find a tremendous amount of intellectual interest in. I have never been necessarily drawn to kind of the the realm of vintage Rolex or paddock scholarship. I of course I find it interesting and you know I try to learn as much as I can. But because I entered the watch industry as kind of uh from studying journalism and kind of falling into it, rather than, you know, being interested because my dad gave me a Rolex or, you know, I I my grandfather had a paddock or something like that. I was immediately drawn more to kind of the story that these living kind of legends were telling. So I am incredibly happy that there is so much more interest today than when I first entered the industry, you know, five, six years ago. But I also worry because like you said, in the kind of early mid-2000s, there was a similar boom of interest in what independent watchmaking and that kind of creativity could do. But um, I feel like there was almost uh a glut that came from that period. And and there were a lot of brands being created that n shouldn't necessarily have existed. And then when the financial crisis happened, a lot of these brands uh got caught out in the cold. And some brands that shouldn't have been lost were lost because of that, because there was kind of an overabundance. So I I encourage people to over the next few years to kind of really think strategically about why you're interested in in supporting an independent, why you're interested in kind of supporting the work of of of someone who's living and and creating art based on on and engineering and just really kind of figure out what you want to support and don't get caught up in the hype because the the hype can drown away the the fortunes of of many uh when things turn the other way. Um so I I hope that kind of answers your question, James and Jack, in multiple different ways. Absolutely |
| Jack Forster | . Yeah, I mean I I I I agree with you a hundred percent. And the and the other point that I think that's worth making and th th this is probably like a whole separate episode of the podcast, but you know, um independent watchmaking is not a singular thing, right? Like Philippe Dufour is an independent watchmaker, Constantine Chaikin is an independent watchmaker. If you w I mean if you want to really be literal about the definition, Odmar Piget is an independent watchmaker, uh still run by members of the uh of the founding family. Rolex is an independent watchmaker, Paddock Philippe is an independent watchmaker, you know. So w when we're talking about independent watchmaking, I think we're what we and we haven't put um a strict definition around it as a community, and I kind of feel like we shouldn't. But like if you say independent watchmaking, like you don't think of AP, which is a billion dollar company. You don't think of uh Rolex, which is a god knows how many billions uh company, you know. You think of of individual creators and individual craftsmen expressing uh their particularar singul vision of what horology is. And to me, that's that's the thing that somebody like Constantine Shaikin has in common with Philippe Dufour. I mean, they're both stubbornly insistent on making their work an actualization of their particular vision of what watchmaking sho |
| Logan Baker | uld be. You know, I think an interesting way to look at it is so we have FP Jorn, Roman Gautier, and Bell and Ross. Three brands all uh have investments from Chanel, uh, which is great. You know, they can support these brands in the long term as well as the short term. But we only look at two as independent, even though technically they are all invested in by a big player uh named Chanel. The the one that we don't think of as a independent necessarily is Bell and Ross. And it's not because they're not independent. It's just because you know we think of them as more kind of a mass production business, I I would say. So I agree we don't necessarily need to put a a label. There should be a general understanding of what kind of the independent and watchmaking means, whether it's uh involving handcraft or kind of a living person in charge of it. You know, I think it is probably an evolving definition that we'll see kind of change in a number of ways in in the next few decades. Yeah, I mean, and does having an invest |
| Jack Forster | or like Chanel as opposed to an anonymous angel investor who maybe nobody ever hears about, like. Like does that make you a less independent, independent brand? Like I'm and I'm I'm I'm asking the question because I really |
| James Stacy | don't know. For me, and it at least in my mind, it comes down to how many disconnections could I draw between the person at the top and the product. If it's like one or two people, that feels very independent to me. It it it's like a m I think in other worlds you'd call this a cottage industry. And I mean to be clear, there's cottage industry supercars now. Like Rimats now just owns part of Bugatti. So these people have a lot of power in other worlds as well. So I don't think it's a weird thing that Logan, I think that's a really beautiful example you just made and hugely accurate into how people perceive Bell and Ross versus maybe a different brand that doesn't make as many watches or have as many ads in various places. And I think it at a certain point it is one of these terms, kind of like micro brand, kind of like independent, and in many ways like in-house, that's almost useless. You have to look at things for what they are and and and either try and make further little slices or or or just see it as as its own sort of thing. On the other flip side, I mean, not independent or not independent, but on the larger player side, we can't move on to the auctions without it without recognizing Tudor. The kings of only watch in many ways. Um I'm not saying the highest value, but we're still talking about six hundred and fifty thousand dollars. Again, that's 710 today, uh, USD for the Black Bay GMT one. An amazing result, a really cool watch. But it's not the first time that they've taken a perceived estimate. I think estimates are something we should all just start to ignore. They should stop putting them uh in auctions, but it take a perceived ep and then like we're talking orders of magnitude. Yeah, that was nuts. That was absolutely nuts. Really, really cool |
| Logan Baker | . My uh my understanding of the kind of crazy prices that Tutor has achieved uh at auction is uh you know there's a gentleman uh he's Philippe Dufour's business partner Claude Svier uh he is the the gentleman who kind of goes all in on on the Tutor pieces and he wants to own each one of those. So uh it explains part of the reason why the they get bit up so high. Uh and I think it's kind of cool that there is he wants to have all these unique tutors. I remember at one point Raul, the the auctioneer was like, uh Claude, let someone else win this one. He uh for you know people listening that might be hearing that name for the first time. I mean, he is one of the world's most important, like publicly known collectors. I think that's a fair description. |
| James Stacy | He's a big deal. All right. So we we want to make sure we get to the to the kind of normal big fall auctions, Phillips, Christie's, etc. And we'll get there in just a moment. But before we leave, any other final thoughts from this one, Logan? I think it it sounds like you had a decent time being able to witness it and and be around both Oh yeah, fantastic time. I mean I just uh |
| Logan Baker | there's two or three other kind of inside baseball notes. Uh god cringe that I just said it that way. But things that I want to remark on before we move on. Uh and it's the the 15202. It hit 3.1 million Swiss francs. That would have been a record for a Royal Loke at auction, if not for the Black Panther Royal Loke concept unique piece that was auctioned off earlier this year, which um you know is is interesting. And I also would like to remark on that watch the AP uh engraved unique piece, not only watch on the kind of uh on the case back, which uh you know take it how you want, but most people put only watch on the case back so yeah that's right no yeah it's it's interesting and then on the Romain Gautier I was able to speak with uh Romain after the auction uh personally I, am I think Rome I'm like a Rom Ganautier fanboy. I adore his work. I think he's one of the most interesting uh and and persuasive watchmakers working today. I was able to handle the serial production version of the the continuum that was announced a few weeks after the OnlyWatch collaboration came out. It is remarkable. I mean it's 55 grams, $37,000. It is more, it's lighter than the Omega Ultralight, more affordable than the Omega Ultralight. Titanium Bridges finished to the most fantastic degree that all his watches are. Just a really brilliant piece. And like you said earlier, James, I think that um I think that the way he handled the rainbow on the dial, very beautiful on the OnlyWatch one. And he told me that his order book is closed on the serial production piece for the time being. Uh he had 120 orders in the first week. So that's good for that. That's incredible to hear. Uh very happy about that. And I think it's worth noting that there was the only Richmond brand present during OnlyWatch was uh Montblanc with a Nicholas Riosek piece. I'm not quite sure uh why that is. I I believe they've participated in previous auctions in a more prominent way. So I I I just kinda wanted to flag that. And then out of all the LVMH watch brands, Zenith had the best performance only almost hitting half a million dollars. Half a million Swiss francs. It was a collaboration with uh Felipe Pantone, the artist. It came with a big um piece of Mr. Pantone's art. Uh really, really beautiful. But I I was, I have to say, impressed that it topped both the Tag Horror Monaco Carbon in that crazy Hublow Sapphire piece. Good for Zenith. I was sitting with the Zenith people uh and and Julian, the CEO, everyone was ecstatic, topped off a great week for them. Um, but I and I I think that's worth noting that they performed the best out of all four LVMH brands and kind of puts an emphasis on the hot streak that that brand |
| James Stacy | is on in twenty twenty one. Absolutely. I I think yeah, I think that's a very flare flag for sure. Look, I w I wanna make sure that we can get into some of the auctions. Uh you know, we're gonna bounce back and forth, but let let's start with Phillips. Uh first of all, just to make it clear, everything we're gonna talk about just so that's a little bit faster, it's we're talking CHF. I didn't do the conversion on all of these. It's uh 1.1 currently if you want to go to USD. I looked at this and the first thing that leapt to my mind is it's pretty clear that the ship has sailed on me someday getting a 5164A. I think I think I have to I think I have to admit I missed my chance. I think one went for the better part of ninety. Um and it's you know that that's uh I guess I'll guess I'll just be kicking myself. But let's face it, ninety K from a watch at at this auction would be a drop in the bucket. Uh, you know, uh Logan, where where would you start? What was the r what was it like in the room? Yeah. You know, I I think we should st |
| Logan Baker | art at the the Speedmaster, the um twenty nine fifteen, uh with the tropical T. Capital T for sure. Um that was the lot good that really kind of I think made the weekend for me. It was the the lot where I felt like I was watching history being made. I mean, it's uh for the record, that's the most expensive price paid for a uh omega watch at auction. It was remarkable just the way that the bidding kept going up. I mean, everyone in the room, I was sitting in the press section, was just like we were looking at each other like what the hell is going on? I legitimately felt lightheaded. You know, I wasn't timing it. I had a chronograph on. I should have. Uh, but yeah, I think it probably took 15 minutes because it was just like this back and forth where things would pause for a moment while, you know, the the phone bidders are on the phone with the the people they're representing. Um RL is doing his thing, you know, kind of uh I don't want to say hamming it up, uh, but you know, he is kind of putting on a show to |
| James Stacy | a certain degree and he's he understands the fact that it's way more fun to watch when he's having a good time. Yeah. I I'm one hundred percent a huge fan of the way that the guy wrote direction. I mean it's it's as much a show as it is a uh anything else. He he's the best. Well, because i I think I think they've they have some understanding that there's people watching at home, there's people watching who who are watching because something like this might happen. Yeah. And it's it it's not just like it's not just buyers who are there to make a transaction. I'm not buying anything, but I'm still here for it, you |
| Logan Baker | know? The comparison that I would make to um Geneva Auction Week after intending it for the first time is in a lot of ways it's similar to the MLB playoffs where the rest of the auction season is is the regular season. And then you get to Geneva auction week where kind of all the heavy hitters come out from the the the watches to the auction houses to, the collectors, you know, they kind of all descend. And just like there's kind of extended pitch counts, uh, and the games take, you know, three or four times longer than they do in the regular season. Uh, the auctions take much longer. I mean, both sessions of Phillips took over six hours each. It was a lot of lots to be fair. Yeah, 249 lots altogether, split into you know, 125 or so on Friday, 125 on Sunday. But Friday was over six hours. Sunday was right around six hours. It's a lot. Yeah |
| Jack Forster | , for sure. Yeah, and I mean it's uh you know it it it's a rare reference, but uh boy oh boy, that was uh three million bucks is a lot of money. Uh I mean obviously. Obviously. And then we've got two du fours that went for |
| James Stacy | more. So like we're like we didn't start with the top lot. We've got a the duality went for three point six. And then the the more complicated one, the Grand Petite Sonnery, went for four point seven five. Dufour's gotta feel pretty good, let alone the guy, let alone the guy who gets to take that watch home. But some pretty beautiful stuff for sure. That's gotta be coming pretty close for a record, right? We you've got to be at least within shooting distance, right? |
| Logan Baker | So this is something Jack and I have been DMing pretty uh furiously about over the past 48 to 72 hours, um, because we were trying to figure out what actually was the record for a you know independent maker at auction uh for a timepiece. In 2019, we saw the George Daniels Space Traveler uh one, I believe it was kind, of set a new record. And we determined that the FP Jordan Francis Ford Coppola, FFC Blue for Only Watch 2021, uh set the record at four and a half million Swiss francs because uh there was no auction premium included. The Dufour Grande Petite Sonnerie hammered at 3.9 million Swiss francs, I believe. With auction premium, it hit four point seven five million Swiss francs. How do you compare that's a premium, man? How do you come yeah, that's you know, just an extra million, you know, that's a lot of money. Extra million cheddar on top. Just a little bit, yes, please. Uh yeah, that's a lot of sauce. But so how do you compare a auction that uh has no premium, only watch to an auction with premi |
| Jack Forster | um? Yeah, I mean I guess I guess one way you could look at it is uh I mean um uh whether or not the uh the auction I mean auctions almost always involve a buyer's premium, right? I mean OnlyWatch is a is a is a major, major exception. And you know certainly to the person who paid four million in change for the do four. Um you know they're not saying to themselves, yeah, but well, I really only paid three million in change because uh after all the buyer's premium is an abstraction that doesn't affect my uh that doesn't affect the size of the check I had to write but like it affects the size of the check you have to write. So I mean if you are if you're the proud owner of the of the Dufour Grand Epiconerie and you you paid uh you know, four million plus for it and you wanna go around saying that uh you own the watch that set a world's record for a price paid for an independent well, yeah, you paid that price, and it is in fact the highest price all in that anyone's ever paid for uh a watch from an independent watchmaker, not counting Rolex, Patic Philippe, Odmar PA, you know, all the guys we decided don't count because of our purely arbitrary classification of what an independent watchmaker is. But you know, I mean just like circling back around to the I mean like the point is somebody s somebody had to cut a pretty big big check for that watch. And for sure. N |
| James Stacy | ow I think I think that record is crucial. I think it's important. I think it's something worth considering and and monitoring as as these prices continue to do what they're doing. But I do want to know, is this the most ever paid for a watchbox at auction? It's a gen that went for 100,800 Swiss francs. I |
| Jack Forster | mean Aurel was kind of riffing on it during the auction. He was like, I don't know, is this a record for a box? He was like, he was like he was like literally asking people in the room, is this a record for |
| James Stacy | a box? I don't know. I'm pretty sure it's a record for a box. If I borrow uh Logan's sports analogy with with the the um major league like it like if you l went to basketball this is this is the globe trotters coming in at half like this is a this is just complete yes so this is the extra mustard someone paid no no didn't come with any watches and I'm sure it's a perfectly lovely watch box, let's be clear. I'm I have nothing against the the product that somebody's buying, but it's still a hundred thousand dollars for a a watchbo a five a five watch watch box from Jorne. Well |
| Logan Baker | yeah to to be clear, um so there were five Joran subscription pieces, all number one uh of their series that were available from Phillips, uh, all came from the same collector. The collector had a specific They're really bummed me up, man. Like they broke up the band. Yeah, they broke up the band. Yeah. They broke up the band. RL is Yoko Ono, you know. So it was five watches. So this collector had a box made by FP Jorn in Geneva to hold all five watches and uh it said, you know, subscription piece number one on it. So you know it's not just any box, but it's also a box |
| James Stacy | . Okay, so beyond uh a very impressive result for a box that now no longer has the five watches in it that it was made for. Not one, but two Rolex deep C's that did not hammer for their low estimate. That's true. Yep. So yeah, we can get into these two deep C's. The deep C's kind of come in two varieties. It's uh these commemorative editions which were made later on following the success of the TriS mission to the bottom of Challenger Deep, you know, to get to the bottom of the ocean or the then known bottom of the ocean, and ones that were involved in the actual production of that mission and and there were several prototypes in there. And they so they kind of come in two varieties. And I think we saw that play out in the pricing here where the uh the the Phillips piece, which was a commemorative edition, so this would be something for museums, you know, Rolex, uh promotional events, and maybe really good retailers. Some of these were sold without movements. It was, it was all they're all kind of different, uh different things, and they weren't strictly watches, they weren't necessarily you know water tested to uh the bottom of the ocean, some ten thousand nine hundred and eight meters. That one went for just a hair over a million uh Swiss francs with your uh buyer's premium, one point oh five, eight. And then uh Christie's has one that was purportedly used to uh test various depths prototype fashion before uh the final dive that that would eventually make it to the bottom. And in that case, uh theirs went for one point eight nine million on two to four million in estimate. And in my mind these these prices kind of make sense because these aren't like watches you would wear. These are more like museum pieces, more like cool things to collect, you know, the one that uh actually made it to the bottom of Challenger Deep, that's at the Smithsonian. Uh you know, we've seen uh Rene Baer on um on Talking Watches, he has one at at his museum. So I think they're these are more museum pieces. And I I wasn't sure if maybe what we're seeing is we thought now was a good time to sell something like this due to kind of pandemic pricing, but that pricing doesn't necessarily go to fairly niche objects. Do you Logan, do you think that makes sense? Ye |
| Logan Baker | ah, it takes a really and I I I talked with a few people in the room, including um you know, John Goldberger and uh a few other people, just to kind of get their vibe on what I saw as disappointing results. I mean neither hit their their low estimate and it really takes a specific collector and it's more likely that, you know, someone who is fascinated with submersibles and and really interested in in that kind of thing would have more of an interest in these watches than a watch collector would. You're definitely not buying one of th |
| Jack Forster | ose because it's a wonderful classic example of uh mid-century watch design. No, it's a very specific thing. It's yeah. It's |
| Logan Baker | esoteric to the you know highest degree. I don't know. It's it's cool. The story is cool. I think it's just difficult to find the right client for it. |
| James Stacy | Yeah. And the values are are that's a that's a a good increase in value since the last time we saw uh these sorts of watches hit the auction. So it's not like they're they're decaying or or we're seeing a big fall-off. I just think like maybe the hype wasn't as high as as people thought, or the stoke, if that's an easier um expression for kind of an in-in-room buying sense. Yeah, and I |
| Logan Baker | think it's also like obviously it's gonna be like everyone knew it was gonna be super expensive. So, you know, the dudes with the the the biggest pockets were probably like I'd rather spend three mil on a Jorn than one and a half mil on a deep sea special and then you know, what else I could buy for one and a half million? Uh Jesus, I can't believe I'm talking about this type of money at |
| James Stacy | all. Yeah, and it and it could be that these one the that we're what we're seeing is kind of the peak of what these are worth.as Where I think it's as crazy as this sounds, I think we may see that these Jorns, you know, these subscription ones, which did go for three, four, five, a lot of value, there might be room to grow still left there. So people might have seen more of uh an investment ability or a uh a perceived upside than being the next sort of custodian to uh to a museum piece. Yeah, I mean there were and there |
| Jack Forster | were hundreds of high value watches that went under the hammer uh you know over a four-day period. I think hundreds of them. And there's not that many people in the world who are willing to spend seven figures on a collectible wristwatch. I mean there's definitely enough to keep, you know, that many auctions going and produce some record results. But I think you're probably right, James. I think there were probably some, you know, uh serious, serious collectors with very deep pockets who are keeping their |
| James Stacy | powder dry for other stuff. It would make sense to me. You know, if you if you just do the casual scroll through the feed, and I would I think this works for Phillips or Christie's, the tenants remain strong. Steel Rolex is strong. Gold seems to be growing in value. Um, we're seeing uh continued success of Cartier, uh, Daytona's. It seems like any Daytona, weird Daytona, sure, good value, uh kind of classic Daytona, still crazy valuable so I think the the tenants are still the the the the kind of bedrock of what the these high values are based on the blue chips are still working uh so I I'm I'm not I don't think we're gonna see some necessarily some major collapse in in between say this year and say next November. But yeah, I don't you know the the the thing is is we we we've been going for a little while here. We'll have a bunch of stuff on the site uh covering this story and and more and and if we get more angles on it, uh we'll do another episode for sure. With the last few minutes that we've got here, if you guys still have a couple minutes left, let's chat a little bit about GPHG because uh Logan, you attended. Jack, you've been involved I think uh several years in one capacity or another |
| Jack Forster | . Yes. I was uh a member of the on-site jury for three years and I'm a member of the Academy now. So what happened was they basically restructured the way that the voting is handled in order to uh get input from a larger number of people and also to produce um I think a greater sense among people who follow the GPHG results that what you're what you're really seeing is a consensus among a um a a large number of watch experts. So it moved from being a small group of people in a closed room uh, holding a private conversation under the uh you know, w which I I kind of liked, I have to admit, to uh to being something where there's a a larger voting committee and then there's still a smaller group that meets in person in Geneva and the voting is weighted so that the people who are actually there on site and are part of that group, uh, their votes are are are more heavily weighted than the votes from the ac |
| Logan Baker | ademy. I I wanna be upfront and say that because uh a few people after I wrote uh my kind of recap article said that I I was bitter because I wasn't on the the jury or something like that. I actually really like the GPHG. I think the watch industry needs an award show. Um I think it's an awesome time to bring people together. I I I genuinely care about what the GPHG represents for the industry as a whole. I think it's it's interesting that it's supported by the canton of Geneva. I mean this is like this is some super Swiss stuff here. Um, which I I, you know, I think is really fun as an outsider. And because I I care, you know, I think that it's important to understand that it could be better. It could be much better. I mean, how can you say that this is the the the best watch of year and and if you know if paddock isn't there, if uh no swatch group brands are there, if um you know FP Jorn isn't, if Rolex isn't there, and that's through no fault of the GPHG by itself. It's just we need a way to determine this kind of thing that that represents the best interests of the brands, of the media, of you know, the the collectors, of the casual enthusiasts, because it's a powerful, powerful marketing tool. I mean, in my stories, because I pay attention to the GPHG, if I'm writing about something that won the aguido or five years later. You know, I mentioned that it was a previous Aguido ore winner. You know, I'll probably the next five Octofenissimo stories I write, I'll be like, Oh yeah, they won the the Aguido ore this year. It is an important |
| Jack Forster | moment. It definitely doesn't mean nothing. I mean, you know, it's uh it it it it i and and it is an important moment and the awards are meaningful. They're just meaningful. You have to take them within the context of how uh the GPHG overall is organized. And you know, w when you do that, you're in a better position position to sort of evaluate what it means to you personally or what it doesn't mean to you. I mean one of the things this is getting back to you uh being the uh standard bearer for independent watch making at Hodinky uh Logan um like one of the I mean No no it's I mean hey, listen, it's it's not a bad thing to be, especially apparently especially nowadays. One of the uh I mean one of the cool things about it is that because so many um sort of like obvious huge, you know, major commercially important brands you know don't participate, it does provide a showcase for, again, for independent watchmaking, for smaller brands, uh, for brands that might find themselves uh you know outshone if companies like Rolex and Om |
| James Stacy | ega did participate. Trevor Burrus I don't remember if they use this term or if this term was thrown around because I wrote a story when they changed the format two years ago maybe. I if if it was something that I said or they said so my apologies either way. Um but some it was compared to and now they you know they want to make it more like the Oscar where you have this big pool of of people bringing things in. But the the point of the Oscars conceivably, again, the background behind the Oscars is not a fair game either. And it doesn't include everyone. You can be iced out, you can be a day out of alignment, you can not have the budget to kind of bring everybody up to speed on your film. And sometimes you get lucky with a smaller film. You know, you think about something like Hurt Locker a few years ago, Catherine Bigelow. And then other times you have these years where like no one can rationally tell me what happened in 2011 when the artists won over Midnight in Paris and Moneyball and Warhorse and the Descendants and extremely loud and creative. Like I can do this a lot. I I have a real thing for the Oscars or not a thing, depending on how you want to look at it. But I do think that it would be crucial to have something this in the watch game that felt like there was an award that could that anyone could conceivably win. You don't you definitely don't want to show where it's always Rolex and Patek and AP, but you also don't really want to show where they're not around and we're only looking at a slice of it. So if this is a growing, if the GPHD is growing and continuing to do good work, and I I don't really mind that brands have to pay to be part of it. It costs a lot of money to put something like this on. As long as that's in the open, like you have no idea what most people spend to have their movie in consideration for a best pitcher. And then once they're told they're in consideration, then you bring out the other credit cards. Like it's a very expensive process. So that I don't think that's the problem here. It's the scope. It's a it's a perspective thing. And if you guys figure it's growing, then I don't think I don't think any of this is bad necessarily. It just maybe hasn't gotten to where it needs to get Aaron Powell I think having I I certainly think exp |
| Jack Forster | anding uh the Academy to include more voters was the right move. I mean, you know, definitely felt r like such an insider's game when there was like twenty or twenty-five of us. I mean, you know, again I mean to be fair they lost my email, but I I don't disagree for sure. But you know the reality is uh it did reduce significantly the perceived relevance of the GPHG and having more voters, you know, it it helps. And and to their credit, I have to say, they're completely transparent about it. Absolutely. You know, I mean, uh anybody who anybody who wants to can go to the GPH G website and read what the, you know, what the criteria for entry are. I mean, there's no um I mean uh uh p people uh love to uh accuse the the GPHG of uh you know sort of behind the scenes shenanigans but like it's really it's a pretty straightforward process. Of course there's there's always politics involved. You know, people people tend to vote for brands they like that are run by people they like. And you know, I mean that's just that's that's the way these things work. I'm sure it's the way I'm sure it's the way the Academy Awards work too. Um Yeah, well I mean |
| James Stacy | sometimes like twenty fifteen, Spotlight wins instead of you know Revenant Room uh Mad Max for your road uh The Big Short to all four of those? That's right. That's right. Oh my goodness, it's a fantastic movie. I don't think it deserved that award. This is I guess this is arguably our point. You're not gonna have consensus and that's what makes it an award at a certain level |
| Logan Baker | , right? Yes, and I think that's important. And I think people in the watch industry get uh uptight about the GPHG when people say it doesn't matter because you know they're part of the watch industry. But people argue about the Oscars and the Grammys, its relevance, uh the winners, every single day of the week. And it's a sign of the GPHG actually mat |
| James Stacy | tering that people say it doesn't matter. I think what people are saying is it doesn't matter in the way they want it to. It's so it's not reflecting the way that some people come to the come the interface with the watch industry in that they're not seeing all the brands or and they're not seeing the watches that they absolutely love, that they've been obsessing out over the last year. Trevor Burrus |
| Jack Forster | So here's here's the thing: like the GPHG is never going to represent, it's never that there's never going to be a one-to-one correspondence between who wins the awards and where the commercial center of gravity for the industry is. But but that is not the that's not the purpose of the GPHG. The purpose of the GPHG is not to hand out uh, you know, the biggest and most interesting awards to the brands that make the most money every year. You know, and I think and honestly I would rather have them doing what they're doing, which is you know foreground kind of interesting, unusual uh watch making from brands that you don't necessarily hear that much about. And and have some, you know, some of the bigger brands that are taking uh taking some risks come in like, you know, I mean, I like the f I love the fact that Bulgarie participates. Um, you know, I mean I I think that it yeah, it goes it's uh very on brand for them to do so given the risks that they've been taking in in uh uh in watch design and in technical watchmaking over the over the next over the last few years. But like, yeah, it's not it's not it's not supposed to be uh an automated system for handing out brass rings to the companies with the biggest turnover. It |
| Logan Baker | 's just not. I don't know. This is gonna sound negative, but you know I I I would love kind of to have a better understanding of kind of uh the jury's knowledge base um and how they approach each auction. And I don't mean the jury as in like the I mean the academy as a whole. Like I I just I want everyone to be vetted and to have a full understanding of each category to be active in the watch industry, to be active in understanding and contextualizing what each watch and what each brand is trying to achieve. Because if you you have to, it can't just be like this watch looks cool. I think you really need to contextualize what this brand is trying to do with this watch. How successful is this? Yes. How successful is this watch and what is it trying to be to use the diver categories, an example? I'm fine with the Louis Vuitton watch winning because it is a more aesthetically interesting take on a dive watch in 2021 than the aurus necessarily. But the aurus in itself as a product is a far bigger risk for a company to release. And from a kind of specs top-to-bottom category, you know, I it is a more compelling uh nominee for me than the Louis Vuitton. I'm not saying the Horus should have won over the Louis Vuitton. I mean, yes, I'll say outright I would have voted for the Horus over the Louis Vuitton, Tambor Street Diver. You can you can say that. Yeah, I'll I'll say that. Uh someone raised a good point in the comments that the dive watch category isn't a new movement category, which is a fair kind of criticism. But you know, that that kind of goes back to the point. Are we, am I saying that the Oris Aqueus Caliber 400 should win because it is a better movement or because it's more successful at being a dive watch or because it's more successful at being a product, a novelty with the new movement. Other people like I I talked to a juror who said that he voted for the LV over the Aurus because it was just another Aurus aqueous. And that's all it looked like. You know? That's a fair criticism. It looks like just another aurus aqueous. So of course, this juror was more kind of drawn toward the exciting aesthetics of the Louis Vuitton, which is on in itself a sweet watch. |
| Jack Forster | It's it's a legitimate reason to like a watch. I mean me but this is to your point, Logan, you know, different people are going to evaluate different watches based on different criteria and different personal preferences, right? So like, okay, we've got this dive watch category, and we've got we've got a watch that's that's interesting from a design standpoint and atypical from a design standpoint versus one that looks like a very sort of like standard issue dive watch, like what you think of when you close your eyes and think of a dive watch, but it's got an interesting new technical movement in it that represented uh you know a real financial risk for the company and you know like however many years of development. So like which one do you go for? I mean do you go for the one that's more interesting from a design standpoint or do you go from the one that you think represents you know the most integrity as a functional dive watch |
| James Stacy | and like I mean who's right in a situation like that of these ones that definitely the Aurus would have would have had my vote for sure that that seems easy to me. I think it's a very successful and down the middle like a dive watch is a genre film which of course wouldn't The |
| Logan Baker | winner of the Guidor, which we alluded to earlier, was the uh Bulgaria Octofinissimo Perpetual Calendar, world record for Thinness Perpetual Calendar, brand new introduction that came out at Watches and Wonders uh earlier this year back in I want to say April or so. You know, brilliant piece. Uh I I will say I didn't necessarily expect it to win um the Aguda ore. I don't know what about what what do you gu |
| Jack Forster | ys think? I don't know. I mean I I didn't find that terribly surprising, honestly. I mean Logan, did you have something else in mind that you thought was a stronger contender or like what made it what made it a surprise to you |
| Logan Baker | ? I had as my dark horse pick uh the Bernard Lederer uh central impulse chronometer. Uh, because I know that the GPHG likes to kind of throw a lot of respect toward uh indies, I thought it would be a cool moment to make uh to solidify the GPHG as a kingmaker to a certain extent to really get the hype up for a certain kind of young independent that's iterating on its uh, you know, inaugural watch. I will say that it it did end up winning the innovation prize and it was also nominated last year with a kind of prototype unfinished dial. I think that was his mistake on Letterer's part. I think he should have saved it for this year when he had the kind of totally finished design. I thought that MBNF LM |
| James Stacy | X uh had a Yeah. I understand picking the octo because because it is something genuinely special. And if we're talking about something that's very successful in the goals that it laid out, it I think it is hyper successful. I mean, it is it it's a a very distinctive thing. It's very it has a uniqueness that that Bulgari brings to the table. But I you're not gonna discredit an MB and F for not not being unique. Uh a pretty pr,etty special thing. And the truth is is you you can argue about the the kind of need for an award show, which I think we do need it. It could be very entertaining. And I think that this show has been growing and is moving in a good direction. And I I just hope that more brands you, know start, to participate and and we see it kind of grow in in the scope so that we have it's nice when it when the movie or the watch that you like is on the list. Even if it doesn't win, it just it it kind of gives you that connection. It's like when your team is in the playoffs, I guess, if we're going to continue the sports thing. The GPHD is out there at least attempting it. And I think that the fact that we're talking about it, the fact that people wanted to DM about LV versus Doxa versus Oris in my case, or I'm sure you guys got your own spread and and Logan, I'm sure you had a thousand of these conversations in Geneva. I think that's where we can leave it for this show. Guys, it's been an absolute treat uh to see you both. Logan, I hope you're able to uh make it home and get some rest and enjoy a weekend without people swinging hammers or or spending seven figure sums around you. Thank you both so much for being on the show. Thank you, James. Uh always uh a pleasure and uh great talking, Logan and uh safe trip home. Yeah, thank you so much, guys. Really appreciate it. Uh see you soon. Yeah, for sure. And if you're enjoying the show, like I said, please tell a friend. If there's something you think we missed, and with some with a show like this, it was a lot. Uh drop it in the show notes, let us know. We'll we'll refine for the next one. Uh, and until then, uh, you know, we'll chat to you in about a week's time. Bye everybody. All right, guys. Catch you later. |