Skull Watches, Haunted Clocks, And Back-From-The-Dead Brands¶
Published on Mon, 1 Nov 2021 10:00:00 +0000
“Every watch is a skull watch if you think about it”
Synopsis¶
In this Halloween-themed episode of Hodinkee Radio, host James Stacy brings together three guests to explore the spooky and macabre side of horology. The conversation ranges from haunted grandfather clocks to skull-themed watches and brands that have risen from the dead.
The episode begins with writer Genevieve Walker discussing her piece on grandfather clocks and why they're so unsettling. She shares her personal experience living with a family heirloom grandfather clock that seems to have a mind of its own, stopping and chiming unpredictably. The discussion delves into the history of these "long case clocks," the famous song "My Grandfather's Clock" by Henry Clay Work about a clock that died when its owner did, and a creepy 1963 Twilight Zone episode featuring a similar premise. Jack Forster contributes fascinating technical details about precision pendulum clocks that were so accurate they could detect the gravitational pull of the moon and even vibrations from trees swaying in the wind.
Next, Jack Forster presents his research on skull watches, tracing their evolution from 17th-century memento mori pieces meant to remind wealthy aristocrats of their mortality, to modern luxury watches where skulls have become symbols of rebellion and extravagance rather than humility. The group discusses various contemporary skull watches from brands like Richard Mille, Louis Vuitton, Fiona Krüger, and Bell & Ross, examining how the meaning of the skull motif has been completely inverted over the centuries.
The episode concludes on a more hopeful note with Logan Baker's piece about watch brands that have been resurrected after years of dormancy, including Excelsior Park, Airain, Tornek-Rayville, and Sherpa. These "zombie brands" represent the broader phenomenon of mechanical watchmaking itself—an industry that nearly died during the quartz crisis of the 1970s but has been successfully revived.
Links¶
Transcript¶
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| James Stacy | This episode of Hodinky Radio is proudly brought to you by the new Seiko Prospects Built for the Ice Diver US Special Edition. Three eye-catching and colorful iteration of Seiko's 1970s divers watch recreation with a vintage silhouette and a modern fit and finish. Stay tuned for more later in the show or visit seiko lux.com for all the details. Hey, it's me, James Stacy, and in this episode of Hodinky Radio, in honor of Halloween, we're diving into the spooky and the scary. Well, at least as much as those topics might pertain to watches. From Grandfather clocks with life or death requirements and the heady realm of the skull watch to long-gone brands now back from the dead, I've got a solid cast from The Land of the Living and Hodinky to help me exhese these stories from their digital resting place. First up, a fresh face to the show. She's a writer and an editor that has worked with everyone from GQ to Wealth Simple, Bon Appetit, Salon, and of course Hodinky. It's the ever-talented Genevieve Walker. Genevieve, welcome to the show. Hi, thanks for having me. Yeah, this is a real treat. You uh you you wrote a story that uh I I found ri really quite interesting and I I can't wait to get into it. Next up I should have uh written a new intro, but I didn't. He's the flow, the no, and a frequent presence on Hodinki Radio. It's our brand editor, Logan Baker. How we doing, Logan? Doing good. Uh excited to be here. Very nice to be on with you and Genevieve. Absolutely. And uh finally, I've always said he was the Vincent Price of Watches, though for the life of me I have no idea what that means. It's our illustrious EIC Jack Forster. Jack, how you doing man? I'm doing great. I figured you'd take the the Vincent Price thing as the compliment that I meant it to be. Yeah I I you know I I I struggle to actually unpack rationally why I take it as a compliment, but I take it as a compliment. Uh he's such a special presence for sure. We'll see how spooky we get in this episode. I'm not a huge Halloween fan, but I I think we've got some uh some interesting topics and some stuff to dive into. So Genevieve, I want to start with your story. It's one that I really enjoyed. Um, and and it's about a topic that is very watch central in in that it's a clock, but I have almost no experience or understanding of like the world of grandfather clock. So almost every sentence I was learning something, and uh this is a story that that uh when we're recording this hasn't quite been published yet, but will be published and we believe under the title Why Are Grandfather Clocks So Damn Creepy or Scary? One or the other. Um we're not sure. But we'll we'll put it in the show notes and you could check it out. Uh, you know, we we record these a little bit preemptively ahead of uh some of the posting. So this is this is the story of your experience with grandfather clocks, then leading you to a kind of grander understanding of the form. I didn't know about these long case clocks and then the song is pretty this this is a great story. Well can you give us kind of a a high level view on it? Yeah. Um |
| Genevieve Walker | so it started as you said, because I um ended up living with a grandfather clock, and uh it is quirky. Um, it stops working from time to time, um, even though it's been wound, and uh, it chimes sometimes in the middle of the night, and um, so I think it's profoundly creepy. My husband does not. And then this led to the story. So what I learned is that once upon a time, grandfather clocks weren't called grandfather clocks, they were referred to as long case clocks or tall clocks, and they started with a pendulum, and the pendulum was put in a box, and uh, so therefore, you had the long case or the tall clock. In the 1800s in England, there was a beautiful long case clock in a hotel called the George. And there's this myth about a man named Henry Claywork. Real person, the story is a myth. We don't know. He was an American, American songwriter. So we don't know if he actually went to England. But as the story goes, he was at the hotel and he learned about the clock in the lobby. And it was a beautiful grandfather clock made in maybe 1825 thereabouts maybe before and what he learned was the clock kept perfect time and it belonged to a man named Jenkins who owned the hotel with his brother and he got the clock when he was born. So the clock was keeping perfect time until the Jenkins brother, the older, uh died, and then the clock started losing time, up to fifteen minutes every day. And no one could figure out why, no one could fix it. And they kept on with this until the other brother was 90 and he died and then the clock just stopped and it would never tell time again. Some say that this is just a ploy by the hotel to not put the effort in to fix the clock. But whatever, it's a good story. And um Work, the songwriter, heard this story and was so inspired he wrote a song called My Grandfather's Clock. And the lyrics are from the perspective of a kid, I guess, talking to his grandfather. And it tells a story that's very similar to the story about the Jenkins brother. The clock was given to someone, the grandfather when he was born it it you know it lasts until the person's 90 and then it just stops working and the song is profoundly weird in my opinion um and it was a mega hit in um the US when it was released in 1876 and uh so now we call them grandfather clocks and my favorite tidbit that I did not put in the article so this is some extra is that the song has been covered by many people, including Johnny Cash and John Fagey. Okay. And Boys to Men. Um so |
| James Stacy | there's some uh fun Google evening for you. You can listen to all those versions. It is really funny and and and when you when you listen to the whole thing about this story and and the brothers and then it dying at the end, it has this kind of Edgar Allan Poe vibe to it. And then the funny thing is as you read further off on in your story, and it kind of links up to the a modern day sort of expression of the same sort of energy or m more or less modern uh compared to a grandfather clock with this being part of a a storyline in a uh nineteen sixty three episode of the Twilight Zone, the wonderful the Twilight Zone. I actually remember hearing |
| Jack Forster | the song when I was a kid and uh every once in a while it kind of like runs through my head and despite the fact that I've been writing about washes and clocks for as long as I've been writing about washes and clocks, it never actually occurred to me to kind of look up the history of the song. I just thought it was, you know, this weird sort of ditty that I somehow, I don't know, ran across channel surfing when I was six or something back in the nineteen seventies. So uh it was a very cool story to read because I had no idea that there was actually that |
| James Stacy | much history behind the song Yeah, it's really quite fascinating that there's that much to it. And that that's where kind of the the the grandfather clock thing came from. So I I'm interested we rewind kind of towards to the front of the story. What what is it like living with a grandfather clock now, especially as they do seem kind of haunted, inscrutable, and up to their own good, basically. Well I hope my mother in law doesn't listen to this because it's a famil |
| Genevieve Walker | y heirloom that everyone loves. I think it's like living with a six foot three like uh speechless human that stands in the kitchen and it does feel animate. I mean the thing is it's not and I have this, I put this in the piece. It's not at all delicate, but if you nudge it at all, it it it goes off balance or whatever, and then it will stop ticking. So it feels like you have this sort of like um, I don't know, cranky grandfather standing around telling me what to do. And uh it's very loud. When we first got uh started living in this house, it was chiming all night long and I thought I was going to lose my marbles. And my husband's like, no, you'll get used to it. It's actually really comforting. And I was like, I that's impossible. I can't deal with this. Um so we figured out how to turn the chime off, um, which was great. And then I really liked the clock because I did like ticking is pretty comforting. Um I could see that. Yeah it gets a nice rhythm, you know, it's like a heartbeat. But sometimes that little lever that you can pull to make it stop chiming drops apparently by itself. And so, lo and behold, come midnight, it's like a cathedral and it's |
| James Stacy | terrifying. And so it's six foot three, what what does something like this weigh, if you were to guess? Like like a human? So 150 pounds, something like that, or I think it's less because I have moved this thing despite warnings not to. One of the first things I learned I was fascinating, I didn't it makes sense now that you do that you consider it, but I didn't realize that they would have to be kind of established as level and then calibrated to that level and that's how they run. And so there's not really changing that one once you get to it, eh? Oh listen |
| Genevieve Walker | , I don't know. The two clockmersak I have talked to said many words. They had all kinds of things to say about this, about the expansion of the wood and the level of the floor and all the little bobs inside. I didn't retain any of that information besides what I wrote down so that I could, you know, keep this thing working. Jack, what's your experience with uh grandfather clocks |
| Jack Forster | ? I mean, uh you know, th they were for hundreds of years the only game in town if you wanted a really accurate timekeeper. There was an enormous amount of effort that went into making them as accurate as possible. And in the 1950s, ironically, just as electronic timekeeping was really starting to displace mechanical timekeeping, pendulum clocks got super, super accurate. There were some clocks made in Russia, Fedchenko regulator clocks that were accurate to within less than a second a year. Oh wow. Yeah. And the main thing that disturbed it one of the main things that disturbed their rate was actually the tidal forces of the moon passing overhead. So, you know, you start out trying to make a superaccurate pendulum clock and what you end up with is a precision gravitometer. And there are, you know, they're just fantastic things. The problem with moving a pendulum clock is that the pendulum i the idea is for the pendulum to swing as freely as possible with as little mechanical interference as possible. So it's resting the suspension for the pendulum is usually pretty delicate, and if you shift it at all, it usually disengages the crutch from the um you know from the actual esc |
| James Stacy | apement. So yeah, they can be they can they can be pretty fussy. And Jack, is the idea that you want the pendulum to swing as freely as possible for maximum efficiency of all the mechanical processes it's it's help |
| Jack Forster | ing? Aaron Powell So the the idea with any mechanical oscillator, whether it's a balance wheel or a pendulum, is that it should uh swing with as little interference from the mechanism that it has to interact with as possible because otherwise you uh you upset the sort of um natural rate of the oscillator. Uh so an ideal pendulum is one that is completely physically detached uh from a clock. But of course then you don't have a clock, you just have this thing that's kind of like, you know, swinging in midair. Caesium atom. Yeah exactly. And the best ones, the the pendulum was i in a giant glass tube that had most of the air evacuated from it, so you had no interference from uh atmospheric forces, changes in atmospheric pressure. The rods were made out of uh quartz sometimes or uh you know special uh special alloys that uh uh don't expand and contract with temperature change, because the problem is the time that a pendulum keeps is dependent on its length. So like if you have a pendulum that's a that's something like point nine nine five meters, it's gonna swing exactly one oscillation per second. And it doesn't matter, you know, what the material is. It doesn't I mean theoretically at least it doesn't matter what the material is or what the bob is made of or anything like that. If the pendulum rod is made of a material that expands and contracts, that changes length when temperature changes, then you're going to have a clock that's going to run fast or slow depending on whether or not it's hot or cold. So they're like they're s really simple mechanisms in a lot of respects. And yeah, they have to be on an absolutely level surface. And the super, super accurate ones were kept in underground temperature controlled vaults on bases made of uh poured concrete and steel. And uh there is there's a great story that, you know, speaking of like weird behavior from from pendulum clocks, there was a um a researcher in the UK back in the nineteen seventies, who couldn't figure out why occasionally when the wind was blowing, his clock, which was in an underground vault, would start going off its rate. And he finally figured out that it was because there was an oak tree a hundred yards down the road that when the wind blew would cause the ground to move just enough to upset the the the rate of the pendulum on the clock. So uh yeah if there you I mean if you're if you were looking for uh impossibly temperamental. Um pendulum clocks are the way |
| James Stacy | they're definitely the way to go. You know, Jack, I I think only you could have said all of that and within moments of saying, you know, they're really simple things. Uh I've I feel like this might not be a really simple thing. Logan, any any experience with um I don't know, uh grandfather clocks, tall clocks, long |
| Logan Baker | clocks? Uh no, no, not really. Uh I'm sad to say. I mean, I I do find kind of pendulum-based timekeeping to be tremendously fascinating. And I really enjoyed reading Genevieve's story. And um I do kind of just want to pause and say that I really love um your writing, Genevieve. And I think it's awesome that you know this is a kind of story that Hodin Key five years ago wouldn't have been told on the side. And I love that we're kind of bringing in that more kind of narrative form of writing. And I think it's just um I think it turned out really fun, really, really nice. And kind of the the basis of it is fun. Um it's interesting. And I I I'm excited to see the the reaction. So that's that's all I've got. Um not much experience with grandfather clocks, but uh it's a really cool story. So I'm excited for everyone to read it. I I me |
| Jack Forster | an I think the story really does kind of capture the sort of telltale heart quality that grandfather clocks can have, you know, the long case clocks can have. I don't you know, and I was I was reading it and it occurred to me that I mean one of the things they're reminiscent of other than being approximately the height of a human being with a face where a human face would be, is uh they're kind of coff |
| James Stacy | in shaped. The inside looks like bones. Kind of. Some bone-like elements. In the Genevieve's piece. And then I started Googling it around and I was like, uh maybe I'll find a book that would that would kind of walk me through it. Like maybe there's uh the equivalent of the longitude book, Dava Sobel's book, but maybe I could read one about grandfather clocks. And I did find that you can buy uh a wide variety of them on Amazon. Um and now I'm really curious is like, what do you get from Amazon with a grandfather clock? Could I could I ha could I make it sensitive enough to pick up the moon? Probably not, right? The the ones on Amazon are, they actual pedendulum bas or are they you know it it looks like it. I mean like I said, I I I got to pr I got to prep I got a strong preface on this one. I don't really it looks like a clock to me. They definitely are all called grandfather clocks and they range. You know, there's some here for three, four hundred dollars to um to, you know, big two, three, four thousand five thousand dollar units. And and I'm sure the sort of family heirloom ones are are an order of magnitude or could be an order of magnitude above that in terms of cost. And and uh, you know, when I guess when it breaks that it's almost like when you have like some a plumbing problem, someone has to come to your house and kind of see that specific scenario. Yeah, |
| Jack Forster | there's a German company called I think it's um Sattler. I haven't looked at their stuff in years, but they actually make um a variety of high precision pendulum clocks for people who are nutty enough to want to have one in their home. And uh you have to have somebody come and make sure that it's level and uh you know get the whole thing set up properly and um yeah, it's it's like it's a process. And uh you have to put um if you're gonna ha if it's a a wall mounted pendulum clock it has to be put on a on a masonry wall, not a wooden one ideally, because uh you know you'll get less movement. Genevieve, does yours chime uh is uh is it an hour striker or does it chime the Yeah, the quarters. Mm-hmm. Oh that's very cool. Yeah, that that can if if if you've got full strike going twenty four hours a day, um they're like super loud and it can just |
| James Stacy | really drive you bananas. We always get a laugh. Um, you know, there's uh where where I grew up down the hill from where I grew up, there's a church and uh they replaced their bell with speakers and now they play like a MIDI file of a hymn, but it's out of tune, and there's no way to change it. And you just sit there at your parents and you're like, Well, I don't think we need this noise. I'm not I'm not sure this is adding anything to the day. I I know it's noon now. I do know that much, but uh you know it's it's uh it's it's just sometimes you sit and go like, uh is that really the note you wanted to play on that? With these ones with the w do you do you enjoy the the actual sound it makes, uh assuming it makes it at a an appropriate time of the day? Ye |
| Genevieve Walker | ah, well yeah, it's quite nice. Yeah. It's a very it's a lovely sound. Although I do associate it with uh I don't know. It it feels fusty to me. It doesn't it's not necessarily the the melody I want in |
| James Stacy | my kitchen. It doesn't have like a boys to men vibe. Right. Correct. Yeah. True though. I'm gonna have to try gonna have to try and find that find that version of that song. That's hilarious. It's so funny. And then with the with the Twilight Zone story, it it it kind of brings you full circle on this idea of the of the the clock has to kind of be kept alive, but it might be keeping its care, its owner or uh caretaker alive. Uh I I really I definitely suggest people dig up um like get into this story and then see if maybe you can find uh pieces of that on YouTube or something something similar. I know a lot of it is uh a lot of that show is online. Although that that is that a was that a pretty well known episode? That's not one that I specifically remember. Actually I actually have no idea, but it's on Hul |
| Genevieve Walker | u actually. Oh so it wasn't like a deep cut that I had a hard time finding, although at first I thought it was Yeah, it's got um Edwin. Yeah, who you'd said was uh Albert and Mary Poppins. Right, who sings a song I love to laugh, uh, which adds an element of the bizarre to the episode. Yeah, it's a really fun episode, and it has that sort of like that metaphysical bent that the twilight |
| James Stacy | I always like those um it's Twilight Zone Jack where the it's what's his name at the start doing the Imagine if you will and he paints a he paints a scenario for you. Rod Serling, yeah. Rod Serling, thank you. I definitely should have written one of those for the top of the show. This is a major error. Submitted for your approval. A pendulum. That's great stuff. Well, Genevieve, I think this story was super fun. I'm I'm now into grandfather clocks. I'm gonna see if I can find a book or two to go a little deeper, or maybe I'll just keep talking to Jack. I like the idea these really the ones that are so accurate that like a tree nearby can mess with them. I think sometimes we ignore the fact that some things are that there isn't a world in which things are that interconnected. The various disciplines of the world do actually overlap and and touch each other in some ways. And that that's that's wild to me. But the moon is one thing. I mean, you see the effect of the moon's pull every day if you live near any major body of water, but to imagine that the wind on an oak could actually be moving your house enough to throw off a very fine mechanical regulation system is I I think that's just very cool. Super fun. It's it's definitely one of the wackier uh |
| Jack Forster | things that make your clock uh run improperly stories that I've ever read. I don't know, like I was thinking about this while I was reading the story, Genevieve it,'s um I mean like watches seem like they seem like, you know, they're attached to your body, they seem like kind of friendly and fun, you know, just sort of in general as a class of objects. But there's something a little like menacing about uh a long case clock, you know. I mean the the fact that it kind of appropriates um the shape and size of a human body and that it's got a face where the you know where a human face would be, you just kind of I mean, if you're alone in the house with one you could kind of convince yourself it's like staring at you, you know while you're trying to cook. |
| Logan Baker | I I agree. No, I I I think that's an interesting point because um you know I I was recently doing some research and and reading about sundials in in ancient Rome. And uh the first time they brought kind of sundials to ancient Rome, the public grew to hate them because they were uh placed in kind of areas uh in in the center of town. And all of a sudden it was viewed as a s vessel of kind of oppression of uh for the the leaders to kind of tell people where they want to be uh at at what time. And and today, you know, time dominates everything. We've accepted this uh oppression of life, but there was a kind of period in time in ancient Rome and and even uh before then, where the traditional clock didn't govern life to that degree. And it was a symbol of intimidation to people. And um, it just kind of the fact of of uh a grandfather clock being kind of scary made me think of that. I mean it's different kind of scary, you know, more kind of uh animal farm or 1984, uh and less, you know, boo. But yeah. St |
| James Stacy | ill interesting. Yeah, you know, we for our sins, you we we got Google Calendar. That's where we're at now. We're thrilled to be yet again supported by Seiko and their US special edition prospects built for the ice Diver Trio, the SPB 261, 263, and 265. Measuring 42.7mm wide and powered by Seiko 6R35 automatic movement, the special prospects collection is marked by three special dial variations meant to capture the wide range of colors seen in polar ice. The dials feature a subtle fume gradient as well as an ice texture that adds visual interest and depth. From a cool gray to a light blue and a deep radiant green, the Seiko Prospects US Special Editions add an extra appeal to the classic 1970 shape and 200 meters water resistance offered by these vintage-themed Prospects divers. Priced at $1,400 and available via US Seiko Lux locations, visit the show notes for all you need to know about this trio of polar-themed dive watches. And a big thanks to Seiko for supporting this episode. Now, back to the show. Tying back in towards the the rest of the show, the the next story that I'd love to jump to would be Jack's look at skull watches, which I think are a neat thing because it it's fun to talk about them, whether it's uh you know Halloween or otherwise. But they're a very kind of specific avenue in watch design um that that does kind of pop up in specific places. There's so unconventional, but they they uh at the same time they they have a lasting charm. So uh Jack, what what's the appeal of the of the skull wat |
| Jack Forster | ch? Aaron Powell I think it depends on when in history you are looking at skull watches. So there's there's basically two kinds of skull watches. The first skull watches were made in the 1600s, more or less. And uh they were a fairly popular niche product from most of the major European centers for for watch and clock making, and they were shaped like skulls. They were pocket watches in the shape of you, know miniat,ure skulls. So uh I mean if you can imagine some sort of like tiny humanoid organism with like a s you know, a silver skeleton, that's what a skull watch uh kind of looks like. And the the general consensus is that they were intended to be what are called memento So these are you know reminders of mortality, reminders of the unavoidability of death, a reminder to sort of, you know, live your life in a humble fashion, even if you're rich enough to afford one of these because they were like super duper expensive. You know, you would still carry one around to sort of, I guess, like show that you still had some moral fiber left despite being um, you know, an aristocrat. And then they kind of fell out of favor for a couple of interesting reasons. Um one of them is that a uh a watch that's the shape of a skull does not fit in a pocket particularly well. So something happened uh in this you know s changes started to happen in clothing in the 1700s and early eighteen hundreds, pants started to have pockets and a vest started to have pockets, and all of a sudden a lump of silver shaped like a you know, shaped like a skull is you know, I mean it's it's if you're Bo Brummel it's destroying the silhouette of you know your vest that you took six So um but it became more of a novelty item. I think the Victorians were kind of into them, but again, you know, pretty much as novelty items and they sort of transitioned into being used as uh you know really more as desk clocks than as something that you would carry around. And um then they kind of vanish off the face of the earth, you know, as the wristwatch takes over from the pocket watch, um nobody seems to have the slightest interest in putting skulls on watches really until the two thousands. I I mean I haven't done a systematic survey, but there aren't like Paddock Philippe skull watches from like nineteen fifty-six, you know. There aren't like there aren't like perpetu you know, fine perpetual calendar Ratrapont chronograph watches from you know like Vashron that like also happen to have like skulls on the dial because you know oo time is spooky. So you know we get we get into the 2000s and all of a sudden like you know mechanical horology suddenly becomes what it was in the sixteen hundreds, which is an you know, sort of entertainment for rich people rather than um, you know, something that you actually need. And so we see this like resurgence in the use of skulls as a decorative motif. And the funny thing is, I feel like the skull is a symbol on a wristwatch lands, you know, in the two thousands, lands pretty differently than a watch shape like a skull does in the sixteen hundreds. You know, if it's like sixteen sixty and you're carrying around a skull watch, you know, I mean you're you're surrounded by the reality of death. People died at home. Um, you know, it was something that was part just a part of everyday life. And you know, so it really was a very, very straightforward reminder, you know, reminder of death, reminder of mortality. But you know, now if you buy like a Richard Meal, you know, three three hundred thousand dollar Richard Meal watch, you know, with a skull on the dial, you're sort of you're not you're not saying, oh, I fear death, I fear its consequences, I should lead my you know life with circumspection. You're saying I am a baller and look at this fing skull on my watch. Um you know, it's just like the meanings become completely |
| James Stacy | inverted. Yeah. And and it is kind of interesting that the you know with the the roots is in in being something of a memento morum because I think in some ways that's what people that's what draws people to an appreciation of watches in general is the fact that they do suggest and measure a non-infinite resource that we all have to essentially atone for at some level. And and I think that um it it it's uh it's I don't know if it's too on the nose, but it does feel very uh kind of specific to have not only uh a skull that also manages to keep Aaron |
| Jack Forster | Powell I I mean, you know, it's pretty on the nose. I mean, the reality is like we you know we were just talking about how creepy grandfather clocks can be. You know, there's something this this weird mechanical semi-sentience that they have and you know, the ticking sound of time passing that you can't avoid when you're like, you know, trying to get an Oreo out of the box. And um I think that uh I think I mean every watch is basically a skull watch if you think about it, right? I mean, you know, if you want to there's every single watch is a v visible, physical, tactile reminder of the inescapable passage of time and the y you know, the unidirectionality of time's error. So like do you really need to like put a skull on it to drive the |
| James Stacy | point I I I would argue probably not, but you did highlight some pretty good examples in the story. So you know, still read the story and take a look at it. links here in our notes. I think the only one I've seen in person are are the Fiona Kruger stuff and I've always been a fan. It wouldn't make any sense on my wrist. Like it doesn't, it's it doesn't align with my personal style. But the way that they're made You don't think you could uh you don't think you could wear a 50 millimeter high Calavera skull Probably not. You know, just uh I'm a Seiko dive watch guy. I'll look at a skull watch and really enjoy it. I'm not sure I could just pull it off. But uh she's such a lovely presence and a very talented uh individual and and a very kind of like um fresh face if you if you know the the way that most of the Swiss watch industry looks or the watch industry around the world looks. I love the color. I love what's, you know, kind of borrowed or or kind of referenced from Mexican culture, uh, and that sort of thing. And and I think a lot of that's really lovely. Uh Jack, of these ones you've got one from Louis Vuitton, the Fiona Kruger, an Aramez, and one of these uh skull, the silver skull watches from the sixteen hundreds. Uh where do you land on these? What what do you think is the archetype of a modern skull watch? 'Cause these are three very different takes. |
| Jack Forster | They are, yeah. I mean I would love to have a silver skull watch from the sixteen hundreds sitting on my desk just because you know I can like kind of like steeple my fingers and go, so time. It passes, doesn't it? The silver one's really cool. It's it's it's very cool. I don't know. Of the of the other ones, the thing that I love about the Louis Vuitton watch, which is, you know, it's just one of these like crazy like mid mid to high six figure. So it's a minute repeater. And it also shows the time on demand. Um when you push the slide to activate the repeater, the tail of the snake points out the hour and the skull drops and you see the words carpe diem and then it uh and it chimes the time. And like I feel like if you're gonna do a skull watch nowadays, that's the way to do it. Just like lean into it, you know? Um Well, I mean the |
| James Stacy | the skull watch and carpe diem. We're we're real yeah, we're it's uh I mean there's a snake right on there. It's not yet eating its own tail, but we're getting there, I think. |
| Jack Forster | Yeah, but see like that's but that's that's the exhortation, right? Like it's it's not it's not like you're going to like you know, it's if it's sixteen sixty, the message is you're gonna die, live your life with circumspection. You know, if it's like two thousand two thousand twenty, the message is uh go out and have a great time. Look how fun this cool sk |
| James Stacy | ull is. That one the that Louis Vuitton one always looks like the like a an opening credit from a Bond movie to me. Oh yeah. It just has that like hyper stylized, really kind it's beautiful. It it's a lot, but it's uh it's also it's it's beautiful and cool. Genevieve, where where do you land on the idea of like uh the a modern skull watch, memento mori that you might actually wear around. If you have you ever been walking down the boardwalk in Venice and bought one of those little I think that's what they're called, like a sugar skull? Yes, I'm actually a big fan of those. Me too |
| Genevieve Walker | . I think Memento Mori, listen, it's the wrong decade for that. I feel like we've got too much of it every day. Um but I suppose so, yeah. I do I |
| James Stacy | I like the idea of the skull on the desk. I think that's pretty cool. There's a little bit there's a little bit of like the the iconography or the the I know you I'm pretty sure we've stood in the same room with with Fiona in the past. So I'm sure you've seen her stuff. Yeah uh definitely met F |
| Logan Baker | iona and just wanted to echo what you were saying James you know lovely person lovely human and uh wonderful designer and uh definitely a fresh voice in the industry. Uh I was actually thinking about her pretty recently and I I feel like we haven't heard much uh from her and maybe you know since the pandemic started. So I'm hoping to uh see what she's working on very soon and you know we should send her a note just to check in that'd be cool for sure and you know I I I also want to to kind of shout out the the Bell and Ross skull watches I think those are um genuinely kind of uh interesting I mean, I know some people look at them or and are like kind of who who's buying a square skull watch, but I think people kind of miss the point with that. I mean, this is like a genuine piece of uh uh it's an automaton, you know, it's for your wrist. And uh the for people who haven't seen them, uh the skull has a mouth that opens and closes. And um I think it's I think they're really cool. And Jack, you might correct me if I'm wrong. Or uh is that movement based on a B and B concept movement from the like late two thousands? You know, there you have me. I have to admit |
| Jack Forster | I am not particularly up on my Bell and Ross skull watches. Uh the one that I'm the the ones that the the one that I'm most familiar with is the one with the glow in the dark skull on the dial. And you know, I mean I have this like helpless love of anything that glows in the dark. Um, you know, from when I was a very small child and um, you know, I mean it's it's actually part of the reason that I got interested in watches. I I I love the fact that uh you know they glowed in the dark. And uh I'm old enough actually to remember my dad's Benrist, which is one of the last, probably one of the last watches made that actually used radium on the dial and it just you know glowed like a bandit at night. But I mean, you know, a giant glow in the dark skull on a giant square watch. I mean, y you you e you know y you either love it or you hate it, and if you love it you're really gonna love it. Ye |
| James Stacy | ah. Yeah. And you it's not gonna be the kind of thing that you accidentally show up to the party and someone else has on, right? Definitely not. But where |
| Logan Baker | I was kind of going is uh I mean, again, I'm not positive if the skull watch is based on a B and B concept movement, but I I know some of their Torbillon pieces, some of the high complication pieces that Bell and Ross has done in the past have done in the past are based on BNP concept pieces from you know 10 years ago. And uh B and B concept was kind of this high complication studio that uh Rezep Rezepia of Curvia uh worked at for a number of years and kind of led a division there. It was eventually acquired by Hublot and one of the kind of base modules I think that was used for the AKO2, AKO3, RESp Je for,give me if I'm wrong, is based on a B and B concept piece that's also used by Bell and Ross. So I think it's really interesting that you can see both this kind of same base movement, obviously executed very differently. The Acrivia is uh, you know, finished to a much uh higher degree, but you can see the same kind of base movement in a Bell and Ross and an acrivia. And most people would never know that. I mean, there's so much within the this industry that it kind of takes a you have to dig a little deeper to see these connections. And that's what I think like a Bell and Ross skull piece does. I mean, they don't just come up with that overnight. That's years of planning and work and finding a movement and then to bring in an autom automaton. I don't know if it's a pseudo-automaton or a foot, like what you would necessarily describe it as, but I think it's a genuinely inter |
| James Stacy | esting uh piece of uh mechanical art. Very cool. Yeah, no, I'd I I had no idea that connection was there, and that's definitely fascinating. Uh, even just from a watchmaking standpoint, you wouldn't really expect those two brands to have an overlap, especially in a higher end movement, like a movement with a really insane complication. Genevieve, have you had a chance to click through those links? See Well actually um |
| Genevieve Walker | something spoke to me from all of these actually uh which is something I wanted to bring up. I was um reminded of the Don Ed Hardy aesthetic from the mid-2000s. That was never my thing per se, but I I had an art teacher, her name was Hung Lu, actually she's really influential, and she kind of um sold Ed Hardy to our class in college and I became I really liked him because of this and I feel like there's some sort of adjacent I don't know, it's it's kindred somehow, I guess, to this like that the tattoo culture on on tattoos on clothes and I I'm not an expert in that by any means but I think there's something interesting there too like you know as far as just the aesthetics of having a skull on a thing that is where I would go with this conversation and and I think that's why I like them. It there's something a little bit like cool and grunge and uh scary uh because of the skull. But like, yeah, it's cool. You're a biker or somet |
| Jack Forster | hing. Actually, you know, it's it's uh it's funny you should mention that. Uh there's probably a a higher percentage of skulls as symbols and as you know, bits of iconography and tattoos than there are like |
| James Stacy | most other things. I would think so. Yeah, I I hadn't considered the the tattoo crossover at all. That's I think that that makes a lot of sense, especially if you look at the aesthetic of the um of the Louis Vuitton and i in some ways the the Kruger, I could see that coming f very deeply from that side of the world where you have this sort of it's you know it's correct to how it sh should look but it it's um it's also been somewhat cartoonized for you know dramatic effect and that sort of thing and and sure maybe you know may maybe it's a uh you know, a skull and crossbones or I mean the skull as a as a a suggestion of you know a greater meaning or danger or something like that has been around for a long time. But the the tattoo thing, of course, not not as long. Uh so that's definitely an interesting one. The skull is definit |
| Jack Forster | ely the most symbolically rich part of the human skeleton by far, right? I mean like nobody's scared of a kneecap. Yeah, I think I would think so |
| Logan Baker | . I don't know, Jack. If you like went to bed one day and there was a kneecap on your pillow. That wouldn't scare you? It's all about context, I think |
| James Stacy | . Yeah, ye |
| Jack Forster | ah. I mean uh a desiccated kneecap sitting there by itself. Uh no indication how it got there would be more like a cause of curiosity than anything else, but if it's like sitting on a bloodstain. Yeah. I'd watch that Twilight Zone |
| James Stacy | . That's very cool. So now uh Logan, do you think any any here that would be left off the list if if you you wanted to make sure people could go on a deep dive of skull watches. You know, the I'm not sure if it's necessarily a skull, but I like Mr. Jones has done some sort of like death themed watches. Um and maybe even death themed isn't fair. Maybe it's more life themed you know, through a consideration of death, but uh I th I think they've done some stuff like that too. Is |
| Jack Forster | n't it a watch that somehow counts down the number of days uh that you have left in your life if you're gonna live the like average life span of um you know a person in your particular a watch set for your actuari |
| James Stacy | al table yeah yeah pretty sure my iPhone probably knows when I'm gonna go it' |
| Jack Forster | s somewhere in the algorithm. Yeah, I mean I find that sort of thing interesting philosophically. I just don't think I want to live with it. I mean, like I think about death all the time anyway, especially nowadays. I mean, you know, to your earlier earlier point, Genevieve is like who needs a momentum? Like of all the periods in human history to not need a memento more what do we have? Like, you know, the the three bubonic plagues uh in the Middle Ages, um, you know, and like what we're living through right now. Absolutely |
| James Stacy | . I mean, thinking of death, I mean, this is a topic I think you we could go for a long time, and I'm not sure it would necessarily uh amount to much in terms of a watch themed podcast, but I think we're doing a a decent job so far. We talked about death a lot in the last episode that I was in. Oh we we definitely did, yeah. Death and race car beds. Common topics really, if if you're me. But speaking of um, you know, if we're if we're gonna focus on on death, there's also, you know, rebirth on the other side of it. And Logan wrote a really interesting story about brands that we lost at one point for any number of factors. I think looking at at least a couple of these who's probably in the vein of the quartz crisis for some, but that are now back. And I think that that maybe leads us to a more hopeful place to end the show with the return of some some really great brands. You know, I've followed the the kind of rebirth of Tornic Ravel recently and of course Aquastar not too long ago. Uh Logan, why don't you walk us through this with the last uh few minutes of the show here? |
| Logan Baker | For sure. Yeah. So uh uh we're not calling them zombies, we're calling it Resurrection. But the the four brands story focuses on are uh Excelsior Park, Air Rain, Tornock Raville, like James said, and uh there's a new kind of in a car revival uh out of Germany called Sherpa. And I am not quite sure. I'm still kind of uh researching. I need to talk to the man behind the brand whose uh last name is Klock, believe it or not, with a K, which I find very, very exciting. Um and maybe yeah. But uh out of those four brands, you know, Air Rain is kind of up and running. Uh they've been really popular on social media this year. I think they've kind of put together a really compelling value proposition um for their version of the type 20. They're using it has a manual wound flyback chronograph movement for under $3,000 uh with column wheel, uh, which I think is a really, really compelling deal. I mean, I can't think of many other manually wound chronographs under 3D. Uh I know that the Messina Lab Uniracer comes in around there, but um, you know, that's not a flyback. Yeah, the Seagull movement. Yeah. But also not a flyback. Yeah, yeah. And um I believe this uses uh Salita. It's Swiss made. So you know it's uh really impressive value that they've put together and uh kind of authentic uh looks and on a leather strap uh twenty nine eighty, like that's that's that ain't bad people. Like that's |
| James Stacy | really interesting. Especially when the ceiling on type twenty stuff is so high. Yes, absolutely. Right. You're either if you're looking at Brigade, maybe maybe maybe you're going adjacent and going to Brightling, um, but you're still spending way more than that. And uh and you know the the fact is that w w maybe they weren't around concur you know, without without a break, but our rain has has uh you know a connection to that to that design and that aesthetic and and certainly it's uh it it is in their is it is in some way theirs. Uh so that that'll be an interesting one for sure. And with Excelsior Park, are we talking I only know Excelsior Park for their movements. Are they is it a a whole watch brand that they're spin |
| Logan Baker | ning up? Yeah, yeah. So Excelsior Park was a watch brand that I was not super familiar with, you know, uh a year ago, I would say. And then we got a a few pieces in uh to the holding key shop into our vintage section selection. And uh I was able to see a few in person from uh you know Brandon and Sayori, our dear friends. And um I was really impressed with uh the designs. The the piece that I had in my hands kind of resembled a Corelli, a zenith Kerelli. And like you mentioned, James Excelsior Park is well known for the movements. And they they uh um made chronograph movements for for Gallet. They were particularly associated with Gallet. Uh they made them for Zenith. m Theadey them for Gerard Perigo um from the 50s to the 70s, I think maybe a little before that too. And it's just a name that I don't think a lot of people know. And I'm excited for more people to discover it. You know, maybe not excited for their corresponding jump in uh prices that the vintage pieces will see, but you know, uh anything that's good for the market, I think is uh good. And I'm all about people kind of uh learning more about what was in the past. And and Excelsior Park was definitely kind of an inside baseball gym that I think um people will be kind of excited to learn more about. And Jack, I think you know the uh guy that's behind it, Guillaume Leday. He is the man who brought back uh Neva de Grinshin a year ago, two years ago, and has been very successful in doing that. I actually didn't realize he was also behind Excelsior Park. I connected with him over, I get sell connected with Excelsior Park Instagram and DM'd him, even though I could have j I have Guillaume's email and could have just emailed him. I had no idea that it was the same guy doing it. But I was able to reconnect with him and and I think he's doing a really kind of really impressive job with it. |
| James Stacy | Yeah, in the past I had a I had a crack at a uh Gala withis an EP40. And uh the only thing I remember this is years and years ago, uh, would have been probably my first like vintage watch of any value. And of course, the the gala prices are through the roof now, so it would have been a good purchase. And I just remember a friend of mine saying like, hey, they they're a good movement, but they're finicky and they're difficult to get serviced just because there weren't they didn't make it wasn't like buying a Vaujo 72 or something where like a lot of people had some experience with these, at least with the 40, I I remember I was I did get warned by kind of a uh deep Galay head. He's like, they're sick. They're like super sick, but you have to really want what they are 'cause some of the other things can be kind of difficult in terms of yeah, getting them serviced and making sure they run properly and that kind of thing. And we'll throw in we'll throw in um whatever I can find on the EP f even just to see an EP forty, just we'll look at a photo of it. They're like very, very cool, you know, very busy sort of um hand wound chronograph movements. Can can I ask you guys a question? |
| Jack Forster | Of course. Just to circle back to the in in in in the spirit of my periodically injecting sweeping generalizations, I mean the the entire Swiss watch industry, the entire mechanical watch industry is kind of a zombie industry, isn't Oh, yeah. It was really on it was on its way out in the nineteen seventies. And you know, you look at trade publications from the seventies and there were like serious discussions about just switching all production of watches in Switzerland over to quartz. And uh here it is, you know, uh I mean maybe zombies unfair. You know I mean you you you you think of these uh you know insensate creatures wandering around who can barely get it together to say brains every once in a while and you know, the watch industry is so much more vital than that. But it is kind of back from the dead, right? Low these 20 years |
| Logan Baker | . In another way, um, you know, I I think we all like to think of uh watches, watch collecting, watch making as an intellectual pursuit. And, you know, zombies, it's also an intellectual pursuit. They're just after brains, right? So dire dire |
| James Stacy | ctly intellectual. Or directly a pursuit, your choice. Well yeah. So I think uh I think that's probably a show. I I think this was fun. I'm I'm not really sure what the uh the concrete overlap between Halloween and watchmaking is, but I think we've shown that there's some. I I'd absolutely recommend people uh check out Genevieve's piece on uh the grandfather clock and then start Googling grandfather clocks. It's a weird fun world. Um if you know interesting grandfather clocks, put them in the comments. I want I want that. I need that in my life for the next little while for sure. And uh Jack skull watches always good. Uh Logan, I'm looking forward to reading all the detail in in the piece about the these brands that we're fortunate enough to have back. So uh to all three of you, thanks so much for being on the show. It was it was a treat to have you. Thanks again for having me. Thanks, James. Thank you, James. All right. And if you're listening and enjoying the show |