Talkin' Shop With Ben Clymer and Russell Kelly¶
Published on Mon, 18 Oct 2021 10:00:00 +0000
The push into pre-owned and the future of watch enthusiasm.
Synopsis¶
This episode of Hodinkee Radio features host James Stacey interviewing Ben Clymer (Hodinkee's founder and executive chairman) and Russell Kelly (Chief Commercial Officer) about the launch of Hodinkee Pre-Owned. The conversation explores how this new venture combines Hodinkee's editorial sensibility with Crown and Caliber's operational excellence in the pre-owned watch market.
The discussion delves into the philosophy behind offering pre-owned watches, drawing parallels to other luxury markets like automobiles where trading in used items is standard practice. Ben and Russell explain that pre-owned started as a service to help customers sell their watches trustfully, but evolved into a full platform that addresses supply challenges and market realities. They emphasize their commitment to authentication, quality control, and market-leading processes while maintaining Hodinkee's distinctive curatorial approach.
The conversation also touches on broader industry topics, including the current state of the watch market, the rise of independent watchmakers, complications gaining renewed interest, and the Cartier renaissance. Both guests share personal insights about their roles at Hodinkee, the challenges of scaling the business, and their own watch collecting interests. Ben discusses his recent purchase of a vintage Heuer Skipper through Hodinkee Pre-Owned, while Russell emphasizes the importance of disconnecting from work through outdoor activities.
Throughout the episode, the guests stress that the pre-owned launch represents just the first step in an evolving strategy, with more innovations planned for the future. They highlight the exceptional team behind the scenes and the romantic, artisanal quality of watchmaking that continues to inspire their work.
Links¶
Transcript¶
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| James Stacey | This episode of Hodinky Radio is proudly brought to you by Accutron and their high-flying SpaceView 2020 and its cutting-edge electrostatic movement. Available now at AccutronWatch.com. Stay tuned later in the show for the latest on the brand's iconic SpaceView timepiece. Hey it's me, James Stacey, and today we've got an extra special episode, hot on the heels, of the recent launch of Hodinki pre-owned. And in honor of this big move for the shop, we have two very special guests. Please be nice in the comments because I love my job. First up, he's Hodinki's founder and executive chairman, a man who's given me endless opportunities, as well as forming the impetus for both this podcast and all things Hodinky. If it's watches, cars, or golf, he's likely ahead of the game. It's Ben Clymer. Hey Ben, a pleasure to have you back on the show. Hey James, how you doing, man? Yeah, super good. Super good. Yeah, so you like your job, huh? Uh it's good. I like it quite a bit. I'll uh Okay, note it. I'll see how this goes. Yeah. I'll make sure all the questions are, you know, right down the middle, nice and easy. And rounding out this motley crew of totally equal level Hodinky employees. He's Hodinky's chief commercial officer, a consummate outdoorsman, and an all-around A plus kind of fella. It's Russell Kelly. How you doing, Russell? I'm doing well, James. Uh good to to see see you you. Good, Ben. Always a pleasure to spend some time with you guys. Yeah, you too, man. It's been a busy week for the site and everything with the launch of pre owned. How's that going so far? Yeah, I mean it's going great. We spent a lot of time getting ready for this, |
| Ben Clymer and Russell Kelly | as you can imagine. There's a lot of work that goes on behind the scenes that that you don't see on the website, that you don't see, you know, on social media. It's uh it's all the back end work that that goes into bringing a a website to life. It's all of the human work that goes into making sure there's great photography and great writing and, you know, a great design and site experience and and all that's really come together over the last few months and we're super happy to |
| James Stacey | to see it uh out in the world. In the last uh couple years, Hodinki has you know bought and started to sort of integrate with Crown and Caliber. And with that, and they're kind of champions of the pre-owned world. That's that's the the bread and butter, that's their arguably the market that they've defined for many years. What's the reason to go Hodinki for pre owned rather than just maintaining the the kind of crown and caliber as as it's been going? Yeah. I mean I I think for us it's like the |
| Ben Clymer and Russell Kelly | Hodinky world is is is a really special one. And that's not to say other worlds are not special. It just means that like our little narrow corner of watch collecting is is different than than other folks. And I think what's really fascinating about our business versus the the Crown and Caliber business is that there's really very little overlap in terms of who the audience is. And in fact, we we we did an audience overlap survey, and the the number is quite small, kind of like shockingly small. And I think what what we really wanted to kind of get to with Hodinki pre-owned is what Crown |
| James Stacey | that's second to none. It's just it's mind blowing. It's uh it's really great to see. Yeah, it's definitely been uh been a big push, but I am interested in in how you guys see pre-owned moving forward. I mean pre-owned has always been part of the watch retail experience. You know, maybe it was a little case way off in the corner of the retailer that you went to that was consignment. Maybe it was a couple years later uh sales forum, maybe a few years after that, it was something like a Crown and Caliber. And now with that expanding, where do you guys see pre owned as playing a part in the future of kind of watch retail, which is ri has really been tumultuous in the last few years? That's a good question, James. |
| Ben Clymer and Russell Kelly | I mean I think, I I've been kind of long a fan of the the pre-owned business. And I think if you if you look at other verticals, like let's look at cars, which I know you know many of us on this call, all of us on this call, you know, pay a lot of attention to. You know, if you look at uh when you buy a new BMW 3 series and you want the brand new 2021 or 2022 model, you go into the BMW dealer in whatever town you live in and you say, hey, I want to trade in my old car. And it can be a BMW or it can be an Audi or a Mercedes or a Toyota or whatever you want, and they're going to give you a market price. And they're the offer might be a little bit lower than if you're going to try, you know, sell it to your friend or your enemy or whatever you choose. But it it is so easy and so kind of comfortable. And you say, you know what? Okay. I want the brand new car. They're going to offer me X. I know they're going to put X plus Y percent on it and they're gonna make a little bit of money because this is a business, but that's okay. And you you pay for that kind of comfort and knowing that you're getting something that is really kind of you know simple and easy. And uh an interesting fact that I've I've mentioned for years and years in the watch world is there's a Ferrari dealer in Manhattan. Not surprising, right? That there are there are a lot of wealthy people there. They sell more certified pre-owned Ferraris than new Ferraris every single year. And I think that that kind of says it all, or that that says a lot of what this conversation is about. And it's not to say that we ever intend to sell more pre-owned watches than new, or that's not even part of the equation. It's just about offering a service that people want. And I think there's this particular type of misalignment or without ever having to sell them. And I think there there's not another vertical in this space that is that way. If you I'm a golfer, as as James mentioned, like if you want to buy the new Callaway driver, you can trade in your old Callaway driver. It's not that you're gonna get pennies on the dollar, but like you can still do it, you know, that like somebody even you know somebody is there to make that happen. Certainly available in cars and in most equipment that of of any material value that that is an option. And up until very recently in watches that really wasn't. And I think we started to really pay attention to it a few years ago and we realized that you, know we, think there's a long way to go here. And there's some great players in there already. You know, the Watchbox guys, the Chrono 24 guys, and we know them. Like they're, they're doing, they're doing good stuff in their own way. But we felt that we could put our own spin on things in the same way that we put our own spin on editorial, you know, 10 years ago, or 12 years ago, or on our own spin on new watches six, seven years ago. We wanted to put our own spin on pre-owned and really help identify, you know, kind of the way that we think we can push the entire industry forward by doing pre-owned in a different way. And as Russell just mentioned, like what you saw on the site this week is wonderful and we're immensely proud of it. But like this is truly just step one. This is table stakes. Like let's get this thing up there and you're gonna see some really neat and I think really innovative stuff coming from from Hodinki pre-owned in in the next you know six months or so. To speak to something Ben said, which I think is really important is that this idea of pre-owned on Hodinki started as a service. And it started with us talking about this two, three years ago when I joined the company, how can we offer our customers, our readers, a trustworthy way to sell their watch? You know, and it really started as, okay, how can we give people a platform to sell their watch? How can we give people a platform to trade in their watch? And we started talking to Crown and Caliber as far back as as 2019 with the idea that we could have them help us to create a trade-in platform without the need to even sell pre-owned on our site. But as we learned more and as we got deeper into it, we found out well, why wouldn't we? You know, I think that as we know that there are challenges in supply in the Swiss watch industry, German watch industry, fine watch making industries. And this helps us stabilize supply |
| James Stacey | as well. I mean, that's that's just one way to look at it. For sure. And I I think it's an interesting thing to bring up that at least from my perspective, pre-owned has been core to my ability to be an active kind of watch nerd because it takes away that top layer of that you pay at retail if you want to be the first in line for something. I'm never really of the first in line type, but with with my watches, I mean a lot of what I've owned has been pre-owned, whether it's it's bought and sold through something like a Crown of Caliber or through private sales. And and I think it's a crucial aspect for in some ways, keeping the market kind of honest. But if you take it a step beyond that, the the Ferrari analogy that Ben made is interesting because the reason why I'm gonna assume that one of the reasons the Manhattan Ferrari dealer sells so many pre-owned is it's can be really hard to buy a brand new Ferrari. If you don't want a Roma right now, good luck getting an SF90 or or getting uh an A twelve or something like that. These are difficult cars to buy. They typically take allotments that are kind of scheduled way out and and people vie for them and they buy other cars to get in line for their allotment. And we see some of this kind of there's two sides to look at it. One, that's the way the business operates, so complaining about it's kind of a waste of time, but also there's a lot of people who complain about this aspect of the watch world of buying watches in in and around the brand new retail. Is it can be difficult? I mean, it's not a world that Hodinki dips into with the dealer markups and and a lot of like uh you know kind of convoluted practices to see who gets what watch and when and and that sort of thing. But I I do think it's an interesting thing that the way that pre-own kind of has to exist as a methodology for a certain type of buyer who isn't going to necessarily buy enough from their local retailer to get the slots of what they might want. And then if you go to the gray market, which I think is different than pre-owned, we can agree, you might be paying three, four, five times the the retail price of the watch to get to get your shoe in the door. And and it's kind of a different uh different offering. Does it I mean does that weigh into where you guys think this is serving the the general Hodinky audience? |
| Ben Clymer and Russell Kelly | Yeah. I mean I think from from my vantage point, like the market just is. And like you know, whether you agree with the market or not, like that that's kind of moot, right? Like the the the just it just is. If you want a Daytona, like the the market price is certainly more than retail, aquanut, Autoist, et cetera. That doesn't make it right or wrong. But what you know our thinking here is like the this market is is is just a simple reality. And would you rather, you know, work with somebody that has direct relationships with all these brands to say, yes, this watch is certified, real, guaranteed. You know, we we guarantee that. Um, and you know, coming from people that you know and trust, or would would you rather buy this product from somebody that that you don't know and trust? And that has always been our thinking behind everything commercial. And I think it's important to note that, you know, we often survey our audience in a myriad of ways. And the number one request from Hodinki from day one, and I mean literally day one, like two thousand nine type of stuff, has been for Hodinky to sell more things. And I think, you know, when somebody is looking at a pre-owned watch or, you know, a steel Daytona or whatever, if they can't walk into the Rolex boutique and get it, they want to buy it from somebody that that they trust. And I think it's really important that like this is viewed as a service, which it really is. And yes, of course we make dollars and cents doing it. Like this is a business and nobody would ever try to say it's not. And that's okay. And I think you can serve somebody that way and you can still make make money doing it. It doesn't have to be one or the other. There's no such thing as like a simple binary kind of thought process on on business or or other. And so yeah, I mean I think this is just a a simple reaction to a market that just is. And that's not necessarily predicated by watches selling three X, four X, whatever above these the, you know, above retail. Like we're not the people making the money there. I can assure you of that. You know, and I think that's really important to note. It's not like you're a dealer who is is taking this stuff at wholesale and then charging 3X. Like that is untoward for sure. And we are not doing that. We are simply reacting to the simple economics of a market. And when you think of it that way, it's like, you know, again, I mean, I was I did a call last night with some professional athletes, actually. And one of their questions was, why doesn't Patek just charge $65,000 for an $18,000 alqua? Fair question. And I said, no, that is a fair question. And look, that's the market price for whatever, 5167. And it's that that is not, in fact, like that wouldn't that wouldn't make the market more efficient. Like that really wouldn't. Like the product is what it is, and the pre- the people who make the product are telling us what they think the market for that product should be. You have to heed that that advice. You have to heed that guidance. If Patek just tripled the price of the aquanaut, like that would turn people off in another way because people like Jack Forrester, for example, or anybody on this call would look at an aquaut and then compare it to a $60,000 other Patek or Longa Vashron AP and say this doesn't make any sense, like from a technical perspective. And so, you know, it's it's it's really easy to blame Rolex and Patek and all these brands for for the hype and for for this crazy market. But they're not the people making the money after retail at all. We know that. And I think it's hard for people to kind of like really fathom that, but that really is the case. And it really is a reaction to the market that exists. And again, it's not good or bad. It just is. And I think it's important for people to just understand that. Instead of kind of bickering about oh, what should be, what shouldn't be, who should play in and who shouldn't. This just is. And if people want to buy a pre-owned Rolex or AP or Patek or Omega or Vashron or anything from us, we know that we're going to deliver something that is really trustworthy. And I think that that's important in this world. Yeah. And I think that another thing that's super important to mention is that while you know we're working to curate, you know, super high-end, super special things that are selling at crazy prices. We're also working really, really hard to make sure that there's an assortment of product on the pre-owned site, as well as the new listings as well, that are approachable in price and to give you options. You know, you have an option to come in and buy an Omega Speedmaster reduced, you know, in pre-empt. You have an option to buy an 1861 Speedmaster in pre-empt, and you have an option to buy a 3861 Speedmaster brand new from us. You know, the options are there for you. And I think also importantly about pre-owned is that you have the opportunity to find that watch that maybe you missed out on a few years ago. Maybe there's a limited edition that you missed or uh, you know, that that Japanese racing dial speed master that you wish you'd gotten. And lo and behold, there's one on Habinki. I mean, that's the cool thing is that there's always those watches that we all wish we had bought way back when, right? And this |
| James Stacey | is this is the opportunity to revisit those, you know. Russell, you racing dial guy too, the Japan O4 LE Love that watch. Yeah, that's that's probably my favorite of the modern speedies. I've liked those for a long time. Those are really sweet. Yeah. I'm I'm interested to see Ben, for years you ran the entirety of Hodinki, but certainly you shaped our editorial practice. And Russell, for at least a few years you've been shaping the shop's kind of commercial practice and Hodinke's commercial practice, how do you think the two are blending? I you know, I think this is a popular topic among our our audience and and certainly among Hodinky staff and and really anyone who likes what we do and is and is in our vibe. How do you think the two are blending and where do you think that's going, you know, in the |
| Ben Clymer and Russell Kelly | future? Yeah. I mean I I think from from our vantage point, and you know, even though I went to journalism school, like we we've always been commercially minded in the sense that like we think we can deliver products in a way that is that comes from a different perspective than everyone else. And that's not to disparage any other retailer. You know, like I love the watch the Switzerland guys, the Wampy guys, like they're all good people, they all serve a purpose. But Hodinki is different. And I think the way that we approach editorial and commerce and how they blend together is different. And so everything we do has a vantage point. And I think everything that you see on you know Nick Marino's side of the house, who is our SVP of content and Russell Kelly's side of the house, has a consistent point of view. And what I mean by that is these are products that we really believe in. And I think you, know that, was really difficult to understand in the early days of of our commercial venture in 2017 or so. But now I think people understand it. Like if we believe in a particular product from Omega or Long Jeans, we'd be happy to write about it and we'd be happy to sell it because we really believe in it. And it's as simple as that. And again, I think there's this really kind of really, really rudimentary understand or misunderstanding rather of like, okay, are people good or bad? Are they is it good or evil? Right. And it's like that that that is not at all how people are. It's not at all how businesses are. And like Hodinki can be a growing business and also provide an authentic, earnest service to people that people can trust. And I think, you know, Jack Forrester, for example, I often say like even if we told him what to do, it's not like he'd do it anyway. You know what I I mean and think that that is true for for most of our writers. It's like we we first of all we would never if any of you know me or Russell or Nick or anybody we would never tell our guys what to write ever. They can do whatever they want. Like that's the whole point of having you guys on staff. But I think for us it's about saying, okay, we believe in these products on the commercial side, we believe in these products on the editorial side, and let's support the people that deserve being supported. I think that's really it. And and we want to make it easy for you to find what you're looking for. We want to make it easy for you to sell your watch if you want to sell your watch. We want to make it easy for you to learn about watches, even if you can't purchase them now or maybe you want to purchase them in the future. We want to make it easy for you. We want to make it better. We want to make the experience good. And I think, you know, as you know, as our editorial and our and our commercial, you know, mutual sides of the houses start to come together, it's it's in an effort to make it easier for you because it is it it can be a frustrating experience to read about something and want to go consider purchasing the watch. It makes it it's really hard sometimes if you don't make that direct connection. So in that sense, it's um |
| James Stacey | This week's episode is brought to you by Acutron and the launch of their newest edition to the SpaceView 2020 collection. 60 years on from the original Accutron, the SpaceView 2020 takes its name from the open dial Accutron that inspired a generation of watch lovers to think differently about what a fine timepiece could be. With a forty-three point five millim steeterel case housing Accutron's proprietary electrostatic movement, the SpaceView is forward-thinking watchmaking combined with the latest in microengineering. Sporting a bright and fully skeletonized dial, the SpaceView 2020's movement is the star of the show, with two electrostatic motors ensuring accuracy and a smooth sweep seconds hand. Finished in its iconic green colorway, for the first time, the SpaceView 2020 is now paired with a matching matte green American alligator Stpra. This striking combination is available for pre-order at AccutronWatch.com. A big thanks to Accutron for supporting Hoodinky Radio. Now let's get back to the show. So I think with some of the pre-owned conversation kind of managed in the last few minutes, I think people would like to get to know both of you a little better. Certainly Russell, you a little better. I think this is your first time on Hodinky Radio. Certainly with me at the controls here. As a chief commercial officer, what is kind of within your purview? What do what do you get to you know drop the hammer on every now and then? Yeah. I mean, you know, my background is on the brand side and watches, I |
| Ben Clymer and Russell Kelly | think. Maybe maybe people don't, maybe they don't, but I've spent, you know, a career on uh uh working for watch brands and primarily uh, you know, on the commercial side of watch brands. And so, you know, I bring that industry experience and that watch knowledge and watch interest to the hoodinky shop and everything that we do there. I'm in charge of everything that we sell except for advertising. I guess that's the best way to put it for the most part. So in that sense, the watches we sell, the accessories we sell and everything in between. To be fair, I have a fantastic team that I work with that's both on the new side sourcing great products and bringing those to life to the merchandising team on the pre-owned side that is really doing a fantastic job of you know keeping track of market value, market rates and being able to procure products at at a fair price to the customer and you you name it. I mean I think it's just a again a great great team across the board here at Hodinki that helps us to bring these products and these these cool things to the audience. Let's see what do I get to do is super fun. You know. If we we decide want to make a you know want to make a strap that's a certain color, great, we do it. If we decide we want to make uh a watch pouch that's named after one of our employees, great, we do that too. You know, it's like I think it's fun to develop products. It's great to um you know work with watch brands to to help them understand kind of the the value and the reach that Hudenki has within the community and that being you know one of you know taking the approach that you know we really want to again offer a range of products that meets people where they are in their collective journey and in their watch enthusiasm uh and and and overall support that through through an overall product offering that represents |
| James Stacey | that. Yeah and I and I'm interested, you know, you you and I know each other fairly well. Um but w you know if you were to describe kind of your your personal love of watches. W whathat sort of watches are we talking about? And how how had does that ever directly inform what goes in the shop, or do you have to kind of take a kind of wider perspective on what people might want to be buying? Well, to be fair, if I were uh |
| Ben Clymer and Russell Kelly | choosing only the watches I like to wear uh and and sourcing those for the Hodinki shop. They would be all black dial sports watches. So that wouldn't be very interesting. So I I have to, you know, I have to have my team like gut check my initial feedback on stuff. But I no, I think for me, what I like to wear, I like, you know, you mentioned earlier that I'm uh an outdoor enthusiast and and I spend a lot of time doing outdoor stuff and riding bikes and running and rock climbing, you name it. And so most of the watches I have are pretty rugged. I certainly have some some beautiful dress watches as well, but for the most part what I put on my wrist every day is something that can, you know, can kind of do anything, uh, whether it's a speed master or a tutor black bay or you name it across the board. I'm I'm pretty |
| James Stacey | rough on my stuff. Let's put it that way. Yeah, that's the best way to be, especially with sport watches for sure. Yeah. Uh uh Ben, I I'm I'm curious because i if I'm honest, I don't fully know. Under your current role as executive chairman, what does that mean? What do you do? |
| Ben Clymer and Russell Kelly | That's a really good question, James. That's a question I ask myself every day. It's a question my parents ask me all the time, actually. No, I'm I'm kidding. I mean I I think my my role is is to to do the stuff that that frankly only I can do. And granted there's not that much of it anymore. But I I think you know that there's nobody know that knows this business better than I, I if may say. And I think, you know, with with Toby coming in and obviously Russell assuming a lot of responsibility and Enery and Rob and Trisha and everybody on our executive team, Carlos, you know, it really is just kind of being the guy that gut checks a lot of stuff. And what I mean by that is like, does this feel right? And would Ben of 2011 have done this? Would Ben in 2008 done this? And to be clear, Ben in 2008 wouldn't have done anything because he didn't know what a watch was, basically. And certainly it had no business sense and and no any sense, but my role is really to be, you know, the guy that then make sure that things continue to feel good. And you know, from an editorial perspective, Nick Marino, who's our SVP content, has done an amazing job kind of varying what content looks like for Hodinki. And I'm really proud of all the stuff that he's done and what we've done. I mean, it really is it's it's completely different. You know, I think Hodinki a year ago was very much kind of I think we were the best at it, but we were doing what everyone else was doing. And what fun is that? You know, and that has never been Hodinky. And I think if there's one thing I can say, it's like we always have led you know, the conversation around what content can be in the watch world for sure. And I think that that remains true today. Working with Nick on that, you know, thinking long-term, what Hodinky means in in five years, in ye ars10, and in six months, et cetera. The integration with the guys in Atlanta, guys and gals in Atlanta is a big part of my role. So really just kind of, you know, being being the guy on the couch, so to speak, uh, and you know, really making sure that that people feel good about about what Hodinki is and and where we'rere he |
| James Stacey | aded. For su. And you know, you mentioned uh twenty eleven and two thousand and eight Ben, if you could go back and offer one piece of advice that the your former self would actually accept. Yeah. I I like this question, but I know that if I went back and told myself something ten years ago, that ten years ago would probably say something mean and move on. Let let's say you would take your advice, what kind of advice would you send back to uh an early hodinky Ben? Yeah, the |
| Ben Clymer and Russell Kelly | the advice that that I would give is is find good partners earlier. And I I think many of you, I mean you guys certainly know because you're here now, but you know, I I was kind of out there on my own until not that long ago. The addition of Energy Acosta, who's our chief brand officer, certainly Russell, no question about that. Uh Toby, of course, investors. You know, that that really is what has allowed Hodinky to become what it is today. And up until 2014 or 15 or so, it was really me. It was me, Stephen and Will and Ashley and a few folks, Jack Kari, who joined us, you know, early in two thousand fifteen. But it was really it was it was not you know, I was always ambitious with Odinky and and in other ways as well, but I didn't really understand what having, you know, real peers could mean to the business and also mean to me. And it would allow me to focus on the stuff that I'm good at, not focus on the stuff that I'm not good at. And yes, there's a lot of it. You know, and just I would say, hey, like you should consider bringing on investors, bringing on partners, bringing on peers much sooner than than you would have or than you did. Uh and you know, I I tend to think of like, man, had we had we done this, had we raised money earlier, had we done all this stuff earlier. How far could we really be? And I think, you know, the the question that that I often say to to younger folks now are people that are launching businesses now is kind of like why not me? You know what I mean? And I think you know early, early days I never would have said that we could be an omega dealer or like, well, you know, why not like, you know, we could never have changed the face of what watches mean to people, et cetera. And now it's like, well, well, why not me? You know, I'm just as capable as anybody else. Our team is certainly more capable than most. Let's give it a shot. You know, and if it doesn't work, it doesn't work, but at least we tried. And so, you know, I think, you know, I again I I had I have no regrets really about a lot of the stuff that that we did in the early days, I just would have done it all sooner. Yeah. And what what would you say held you back? Yeah. I mean a little bit of it was I I d I don't I I'm not even gonna say it was fear. I'm not gonna feign that I was afraid of this. I really wasn't. It was just I didn't how to do it. You know what I mean? And like even today, it's like, you know, I like I've never done this before, you know, and like this is my first company of of of any, you know, you know, real material note. But it's like it's so difficult to like, okay, like how do you raise money? You know, and I had good friends in there in in Kevin Rose and Tony Fidel that helped me do it. th Andose guys are experts at it. You know, how do you create good content? Like, I don't know. We just did it. You know, and I think not understanding how to do stuff is really the biggest, biggest roadblock for me as an entrepreneur is like, how do you launch an app from zero? How do you create a YouTube channel from zero? How do you do any of this stuff? And like, you know, now I've done some of that and I would feel comfortable giving people advice and saying, okay, this is how we did it. I'm not gonna say it's gonna work for you, but it worked for me. And so again, it it really wasn't fear, it was more about just not understanding what it it takes to kind of be successful in in in those particular verticals. And again, I don't I don't know that much more now than I did back then, but I I know that like there are people out there that are willing to help you. And it would be about relying on those people to get stuff |
| James Stacey | done. You know, Ben, looking back over all of the developments that Hooding's had over the years, whether it be launching the shop or bringing in major brands as part of a retail strategy or you know, now into insurance and crown of caliber and pre-owned and the rest. What are some that were simply way more work than somebody might expect from kind of the outside? |
| Ben Clymer and Russell Kelly | Oh well, all all of it. You know, I mean the the the amount of hours I've spent on this is like it's it's absolutely disgusting, uh, honestly. How how much work we put into this over over the time. But I think that the the biggest thing was the launch of authorized watches on on Hodinky. And I think nobody really understands, even to this day, of what it really requires to get the approval and the and the acceptance and the support of brands to sell watches only online. You know, that there's very few peers, even today, Mr. Porter being obviously a big one, there's very few online exclusive, they're they're called peer players, by the Swiss pure players of people that sell watches online. It requires so much understanding and so much kind of you know thought and so much kind of like I don't I don't want to call it kind of convincing, but really explaining your case in a way that is is is really, really remarkable and just has to be incredibly tight and incredibly well thought through. And you have to jump through hoops that you might not think. And I think that was was really one of our most trying tests. And we've obviously validated it many times over. You know, we launched with seven brands. We have what, north of 40 now. So we know that it works, but you know, those early days of being an authorized dealer on the internet were incredibly trying. And the ups and downs at some point, you know, we'll go into maybe when we write the book, if there ever is a book. But you know, it's it's really remarkable the the amount of work that was put into that and still is to this day. And the man who has made it completely possible, you know, from the the small little business we had when he joined to where we are today is is Russell for sure. And without him, we wouldn't be a fraction of where we are on the authorized dealer side for sure. It's an incredible amount of work. But you know, something that we're incredibly proud of because so many people have tried and so many people have failed to do that, and we continue to succeed at it. So that that definitely feels good and it makes it all feel worthwhile. I'll step in there and say, you know, that while I've come on board and and helped drive things on a commercial level, I'll second what Ben said is it's the amazing people that we have within the Hodenkee organization that work their asses off to bring this stuff to life. So I think more than anything, it's all the hard work and all the care that people have for what Hodenki represents that allows |
| James Stacey | us to have the success that we do. Yeah, I'm uh I mean I'm I'm routinely jaw dropped by the the level of love and passion that we have on on the team here. And as I get to meet more and more people from Crown and Caliber through Zoom meetings and stuff like that, it's all the same, which is really uh supportive and and a nice way to to know that that many people have your back when you come to work every morning. You know, Russell, for you, looking back, you know, what would you say is kind of the biggest difference between the company now when when you started and and where it is now? Is it the Crown and Caliber, which is kind of a fairly large personnel and physical difference, or is it uh do you think there's maybe a change in tone over to over time? Well, I mean, to start, we don't pack and ship the watches on the kitchen t |
| Ben Clymer and Russell Kelly | able anymore. That's that's one thing. I mean I mean, so when you know when, I started at uh the beginning of 2019, we were still a really small team and I think, you know, less than 20 people in the company at that time and uh and we had big plans and we worked really hard to realize those plans. But I think overall, again, it's looking at the size. And I'm sure Ben, you have you kind of, you know, have to shake your head now and then when you see how much we've grown, it's like looking around and seeing the number of people, the number of people that we have in the company today. And I think one of the things that I'm most proud of is that we are creating a great quality of life and a great culture and environment for these people to work in day in and day out. And we couldn't do anything that we do without them. And it's just fantastic to see everybody growing and thriving, people that have been here from the very beginning of Hodinki to still today, to people that are joining the company now and bringing new enthusiasm. You know, it's just, you know, it's just really, really a fulfilling place and a |
| James Stacey | meaningful place to come to work every day. I absolutely agree. It's been uh it's been amazing to see the team develop over time and see people who who you think you you think you kind of had an understanding of what they were good at and then it just turns out you can put them anywhere and they're good at just about anything. And there's a lot of people on the team like that, which uh which is uh always really fun to see. You know, I'm curious, you know, you guys both have your your finger on the pulse both from a a business standpoint, but also from an enthusiasm standpoint. This isn't really a business you get into just to fill out spreadsheets, I think. I think it requires some love of the game. And uh w what do you guys figure the the is the next big thing in watches? I think people would be upset if I didn't at least ask. Oh man, that that's a |
| Ben Clymer and Russell Kelly | complicated question. Where we where we go. Yeah, that that's it's so complex, right? I mean, like four years ago, everything everything was vintage watches. Like that's that's what everyone cared about. Now like you almost never hear about vintage watches. Like it's just not it's not what what's on the tip of everybody's tongue. You know, of of course, you know, the the steel sports watch stuff is here. That's not going anywhere anytime soon. But I think it's important to remind people that, you know, five years ago, what was the six two six three big red Daytona selling for and what's it selling for now? Right. And like that was kind of like the archetype of like the vintage watch, like the Daytona, you know, readily you know available. So you can always get the one. There's a market price, and like they've definitely softened up quite a bit. So I would just kind of keep that in mind as you think about the Nautiluses and Royal Oaks and all that of the world. You know, something that I'm really encouraged by is the the rise in interest and independence, for sure. It's a really confounding market because it's so small, right? I mean, like, you know, how many watches does Moser make per year? How many watches does Jorne make per year? Like very, very few. So it's really easy to manipulate, which is the scary part in it for sure. And it's controlled by you know very, very small number of players, etc. But the one thing I will say, the absolute you know, net positive of this is people that are doing things the air quotes right way are are being rewarded. And you know, the Max Boosers, the the Mosers, the Groenfelds, the Dufours certainly finally kind of getting, you know, the attention that that they deserve from not just the nerds like us, but from people in general is really encouraging. And, you know, I I think there's there's some craziness to it. I think the Jorn market is absolutely bananas and I don't think that's sustainable. But I think, you know, the the respect for Jorne I think is is well deserved and the respect for Dufour and Kari and Roger Smith and all those guys uh is is really neat. And I think we're gonna see a lot more young guys and gals kind of follow in their footsteps of creating their own brands, doing things their own way. And we see it with Acrivia right now, who's one of the hot, you know, hottest watchmakers out there. Um and you know, that guy will do whatever he wants to do his way. And you gotta love that, just like Jorn did or just like Dufour did or Roger Smith. You know, Roger Smith isn't taking any more orders at all right now. You know, I mean like is is that does that make any sense from a fiscal perspective? Like definitely not. But it's it's clear that, you know, he wants to continue to develop the technology that that he thinks is is going to be, you know, really encouraging for the future of watchmaking. And you have to, you have to respect that. So, you know, I think the future of watchmaking is bright in all categories I think vintage will come back. I think, you know, pre-owned and and the steel sports watch craze is real. I think we're starting to see a little bit of more interest in complications. You know, for the last eighteen months, nobody kind of gave a sh about complicated watches. And we're starting to see the guys gravitate a little bit. You know, they've had they've had every single 5711 and 5990 and blah blah blah. And now they're buying 5270Ps and they're buying 5204s and AP and and and Longa complications, et cetera. Um so I'm encouraged by that because like at the end of the day, like that is real watchmaking, no matter how cool an Aquinaut is, you know? Yeah. I mean, I I have to second Ben that the focus or the interest in the in the independence is is super encouraging. I mean, these are watchmakers and and creatives that are doing what they do purely out of passion and purely out of love for what they're doing. And I think uh, you know, that perfect example is is Rexhep at Acrivia and really making a choice to stay small and stay intentional about what they do. And I think that that's something that's that's pretty amazing. And and I think it's I think it's great. It's like you know in in my career having the having had the opportunity to work for Bon Pond and work for Vachron and and being able to see those those complicated workshops for the are the complications that they create in a in a relatively large company in the Swiss watch industry. It's awesome to see some of that great stuff coming out of very, very small companies as well. But so I think to Ben's point, complications are are on the rise, which I think is phenomenal because it's the thing that like hooked me in this industry was like really diving deep and learning about complications. And so I love to see that uh coming back to life. And uh and I just love to see the uh I love to see the creativity. I love to see what's what's coming next and and I love to see the intentional |
| James Stacey | ity of staying small on purpose. I think that's great. For sure. No, I I absolutely agree. Especially on the on the indie front. I think it's some of the most exciting stuff. I I've I've been really been enjoying watching the Joran market explode from like uh an armchair quarterback, you know, watching sales and and uh auctions and stuff, it's very exciting to suddenly see this such a rapid expansion of uh of value on something that you know hasn't changed. They've been great since they started and and they're still great. But it's also it's not new. Like when you think |
| Ben Clymer and Russell Kelly | of FB Jorn how many years ago was it been that that one SIHH or Basel he decided I'm not releasing anything new because I haven't filled the orders from last year so I'm not releasing anything new until I fill these orders and I think that that's that was |
| James Stacey | years ago. And that's kind of still what's happening today. And I think that's super cool. And do you guys see the indies as sort of the current seat, the current throne of like true watchmaking, or is that kind of a fallacy as any watchmaking watchmaking. It could be hugely industrial, vertical, or integrated like uh Seiko or Rolex or what do you figure? Maybe for the enthusiast? Aaron Powell Well, I mean it it de |
| Ben Clymer and Russell Kelly | pends on on what gets you going. I mean look, I I wear Grand Seiko, we did a limit edition with them. I I wear Rolex Omega. Like those watches are wonderful. And those are absolutely real watch making. Like no question about it. And and those three brands in particular have really innovated at scale, which is is frankly far more difficult to do than innovating, you know, at at So a lot of respect for those those guys for sure. And at the end of the day, you know, when I'm the average day in my life, I'm not wearing a complicated watch at all. Maybe a date, you know, maybe a chronograph, something like that, usually self-winding. So I mean those are the watches that people live with. So that's kind of the most important. And I often say like the watches that people tend to to gravitate to over time are are typically not complicated watches. Those are the watches you want to live with. But if you're talking about like innovation and what is really really exciting and romantic about watchmaking, it's it's definitely complicated watches. It is the A Long and Son, it is the AP perpetual calendar, which I know you love, James. You know, the the the the protect fi uh 5270 P like or or in any metal that you know a, hand wound perpetual calendar chronograph like is still a really exciting type of watch to me as as a nerd that grew up, you know, kind of dreaming about the twenty four ninety nine. So, you know, I think it's it's just different things for different people and it's just you know, it's like do do you I mean uh a Toyota Camry is still a wonderful car. It doesn't get me excited, but like that's a great car to drive four hundred thousand miles, you know? And then a brand new Ferrari is also a great car. It gets me excited in a different way. And I think that's just it's the same thing with watches. Yeah. |
| James Stacey | And uh we don't need to get into the whole like is there a bubble or not on the current values because I think that it's a more complicated thing than saying there's a bubble. But do you think we're going to see a market correction for some of these really remarkably double price watches, watches that have one price at retail and have a multiple price when it when it actually hits the market? Or is this just the reality, at least for the the medium term for this sort of market. |
| Ben Clymer and Russell Kelly | Yeah. I mean it it's it's so so hard to say, right? Like fortune tellers are are always correct. It just depends on how long you wait. You know, like if you're if you're willing to wait long enough, like things will come down. It could be fifty years, it could be a hundred years, you know, it could be six months. It's hard to say. I I think there's still a ways to go with the watch market in general. You know, when you think, I know James, you follow the market just like I do. When you look at a gooding sale at Pebble Beach, like how many cars do they have that broke five million? Like a bunch, you know? How often does a does a Rolex or Protect break five million in auction like very seldomly. So I think there's a long way to go. Do I think like the the basic Daytonas, Royal Oaks, etcetera, have have have a long, long way to go up or down? I don't think so. I mean, I think the market has been pretty consistent for for a good while now. And you know, and knowing AP and Rolex and Protect, like they're not gonna they're not gonna bury those markets. Like they're not just gonna unload a ton of those things to to drive the prices down at all. So I think that they're relatively stable, but you know, again, what what the hell do I know? Yeah |
| James Stacey | . I think it's it's all just kind of a guess because it nobody could have predicted the pandemic and what that's done to pricing in houses, cars, art, watches, pretty much anything you can buy is now more expensive than it was 18 months ago. And certainly that's definitely true for watches, especially watches that I would say are great watches, but maybe not classically interesting watches or rare watches. Like there seemed to have been the middle the middle got this big lift and and that's where I think we might I mean I I'm absolutely talking out of turn here, but that's where I think we might see a correction over time is you know the truly special stuff will always be special. And then the rest of it comes down to what's interesting and um and and what's kind of capturing people's fascination, which which brings me to one that I wish I had seen coming two years ago is Cartier. I mean, talk about a rise in just the number of conversations that we're having about Cartier as people who exist in the watch space. How do you guys you think this has just been something that they were ignored for too long and they're finally getting what they deserve, or is there something I might be missing? I I |
| Ben Clymer and Russell Kelly | think, I mean, if you know, with with I would say like the upper echelons of elite watch collecting, Cartier has always been there. You know, the John Goldberger types, the arcoup types, et cetera. It's always been there. But I think, you know, there's so few of them, and as as I' Ive've mentioned in previous episodes and certainly in the magazine, like they are incredibly difficult to buy. There are so many fakes and so many just weird kind of like Franken watches out there. If you're talking about proper vintage, you know, pre-1969 vintage Cartier. So, you know, now what we're seeing is like not those watches, but the watches that were made after that, like 70s, 80s, really 90s and early 2000s, are really popping in a crazy way. And I think a big part of it is Cartier paying attention to that market and recreating th thoseose watches, the asymmetrique, uh, you know, the bangoir, stuff like that. And so I think, you know, I think it's it's just a long time coming, but it feels a little bit like the independence, which is like, yeah, like no shit, like vintage Cartier is amazing. Of course it, should be heralded. You know, just like FP Jorna and Langa and Patek should be heralded. So yeah, I mean, I think vintage Cartier deserved this pop a long time ago. The the the nouveau vintage stuff, the 90s stuff going for the crazy numbers, it it is right now, that's a little odd to me. You know, paying $300,000 for a watch made in the 90s from Cartier, like that, that's a that's that's a vibe I'm not sure I can get I can get down with to be honest. But that's not to say that the market isn't real and and and not stable. So it's a complex one for me. Today I was looking at a 1970s uh Carnier Jumbo that's on our uh on our website and think about it's such a nice watch. I mean the sheer appreciation for what Cartier has done over time and the history of that uh of that maison and everything that they've done uh from not only a watchmaking standpoint, but uh just in general, uh, I think as a as a legacy uh manufacturer. So uh I agree that I think that it's it's great to see, you know, some focus back on Cartier, say, but overall I think uh yeah the |
| James Stacey | vintage stuff is still what what gets me going in Art T. For sure. You know, speaking of things that that you know capture your guys' interest and such, uh what what are you guys excited about? What what gets you out of bed? Is it it doesn't like I said, it doesn't even have to watch it's just something that lets people know a little bit more about you and and you know what's uh what's on your mind. What's uh what's the object of fascination for you guys today? I would say that right now |
| Ben Clymer and Russell Kelly | the the object of fascination for me right now is more an idea of being able to disconnect. And I think that that sometimes, you know, especially through everything that we've all gone through in the pandemic and being on screens more than we maybe want to, and just having the ability to kind of take the time to get on my bike and go for a long ride on the weekends to get in my 94 80 series land cruiser and go camping going camping this weekend combination camping gravel cycling trip uh this weekend uh so that's going to be fun but i think that's really it it's like uh i i really enjoy everything that i get to do day day in and out and I love everything that goes into kind of the watch culture that we all live. Uh but I also love to be able to kind of check out and spend time with my family, spend time outdoors, g |
| James Stacey | etting some exercise and yeah, that's really it. Yeah. Well I mean that's the plus of uh as as much as we operate in a way that this industry moves quickly and that we move quickly to respond to it, the actual industry moves pretty slowly. So you can it is possible to disconnect and hopefully not miss something, you know, giant. Like you you and and and I mean to your to your point earlier, you you've got all these sport watches, you gotta do something with them other than sit at sit at a desk and work on your monitor tan. Yeah, that that's exactly it. And I think one of the things, |
| Ben Clymer and Russell Kelly | and if we have to say something that I'm super pumped about when it comes to watches right now, the last trip to Switzerland that we took prior to the pandemic, shut everything down. Was myself and Ben, and Joe Thompson and Cara were in Switzerland and we and we went to Omega. And Reynold, we had a great visit with Reynold, and he took us through the 321 workshop the manufacturer. Oh nice where they're assembling 321 Ed White Speedies one by one and it was just one of the most kind of romantic evenings that we had with in a watch manufacturer, and I look back on that and I think it's so it was such an amazing experience. So I'm super pumped on seeing the Ed Whites hit the market eventually. I |
| James Stacey | 've got my eyes on one. You never know. Maybe I maybe I can scoop one up, but who knows. Yeah, I mean that that's an interesting word to use to describe a watch manufacturer romantic. It's not what I would typically I mean it depends on the manufacturer for sure, but with Omega scale you, would expect clinical or or you know very uh accurate and astute. But it's it's interesting, especially with that watch, because that is a watch that's almost exclusively its appeal is based in the romanticism of the era in which Absolutely. So that that's uh an interesting thing. And also a shout out to Joe Thompson. Joe, I don't know if you're listening, but I miss you and I love you a lot. So do I, Joe. Uh Ben |
| Ben Clymer and Russell Kelly | , how about you? Where to begin? I mean, you know, th there's there's so much stuff that is kind of like holding my interest these days. Obviously in watches that there's always stuff and I'm I'm finding myself like you know, definitely interested in in a lot of independent stuff. You know, uh not surprisingly, I'm a huge fan of Roger Smith and everything that he does. And I think kind of him not being Swiss and myself also not being Swiss, uh, you know, kind of connects us in in in a certain way. Um so really a fan of of everything that he's doing and I'm in kind of more constant contact with him than than ever before. So really kind of going down that rabbit hole. Finding some vintage watches that I've always wanted, never been able to. I actually bought a vintage watch from Hodinky uh this week or last week. Haven't paid for it yet. Sorry about that, Russell. Come on. But uh I I promise I'm good for it. Um but you know, finding some stuff that like I always kind of wanted and in fact like kind of completes a circle uh for me in some ways and and and us at Hodinky. And and then you, know, outside of watches, you know, look, I'm I'm not gonna pretend like I'm not a total vintage car nut. And I spend more time probably looking at vintage cars on the internet than than than watches at this point. Uh, really into golf these days, uh, I'm really into my aura ring, which I know at least some of you guys know what that is. Yeah. It's a sleep tracker. Yeah, I'm a I'm a I'm a huge, huge kind of sleep nerd now. So I really focus on getting good night's sleep and and really kind of like, you know, you know, kind of pulling the right levers to get to a point where like I'm I'm approaching ninety and above uh my sleep score, uh which is incredibly nerdy, but like I've really found has really, you know, kind of changed the way that I approach my day. So all all sorts of stuff. Yeah. I mean I I |
| James Stacey | the first one that comes to mind is with with Roger, uh, you know, it's fun because I recently got a chance to actually sit down and have like uh my first pr kind of long chat with uh Roger Smith uh for an upcoming article in the in the magazine, in the next issue of Hoodinky magazine. And he's not like anyone else I've ever met in this industry. Certainly not somebody with his level of like fame and acumen and attention. It's just like when you it's a lot, the conversation was a lot like the ones you have at those great car meetups where you know you would tell me, oh, Saturday morning we're going here for breakfast and then going for a drive and I would tag along, not really knowing who else was coming along. This is in the New York area. And you'd meet these folks and and sometimes it was people I'd met once or twice, maybe at at a thing where you say hi and introduce yourself and then never get any deeper. And you end up having these kind of pseudo deep conversations that ping off of all the things that we're interested in. And it was the same with Roger. He's a he's a delightful guy., Re reallyally uh really a pleasure to to chat with. And I mean the work stands for itself. We don't have to uh we certainly don't have to qualify that. I I am curious, uh and we can save it for a future episode if you'd rather, but uh w what's some of the s some of the watches that you'd picked up that kind of completed that circle. Anything you want to talk about? Sure. I'm I |
| Ben Clymer and Russell Kelly | 'm really referring to one uh that that really completed a circle and that I I finally bought an original Hoyer Skipper and I bought it through Hudinky. Uh it was it's an amazing watch. It was actually offered to Crown and Caliber, which is amazing by a gentleman that actually bought the watch new in Paris in nineteen seventy. Uh so an original owner, a Hoyer Skipper. Oh wow. And you know, those watches are so special. And obviously, like that was the watch that we referenced when we did our first and maybe most popular limited edition, you know, four or five years ago with our own skipper. Uh and I've always wanted one, but I always, you know, I mean you I've I've kind of long extolled the benefits or my interest anyway in buying like original owner watches and like that's just how I want to buy product the these days, whether it's a car or a watch, honestly. It's just so that there's no funny business. And this watch came directly from the original owner uh through Cronin Caliber. And I didn't even know it was coming in until Brandon and Sori and and and Rich on our team, uh, mentioned it to me and I I just bought it on the spot. Uh and so you know, I'm a a hardcore Hoyer lover, vintage Hoyer lover. The Carreras in particular, the early hand wound ones are are just watches I love. I've got a two four four seven in that I've had since the early, early days of of Hodinky. Um and this again kind of closed a loop for me. And to be able to buy it from us effectively, who who got it from the original owner, I think is is really compelling. And like it's it's not the cleanest example, it's never been polished, but like it's not the cleanest example from a dial perspective, but it's totally earnest. And I think that is really again what what drives my interest in in watches and cars today. Like it doesn't have to be mint, mint, mint, A. And in fact, like the likelihood of a 50-year-old watch or car being mint mint mint a plus plus is so low that it actually makes me suspicious of it, you know? So this watch having a little bit of fading on the dial, et cetera, um, you know, is is really what I look for because you know it's it's real. Uh so extremely excited about about finally getting a a Hoyer skipper for sure. Ben scooped it up so quickly I haven't even gotten to see it yet. So um I |
| James Stacey | look I look forward to hopefully seeing it one day. Ben the the colors they age fairly nicely from what I've seen is that is that 'cause it is kind of a colorful watch and and sometimes colors kind of disappear, but uh from what I've seen in those vintage ones, even ones that have seen some sun and such uh have lived a life, they uh they certainly age age nicely. So |
| Ben Clymer and Russell Kelly | if you're gonna have one with a bit of wear on it. Yeah, they they do. And I think like you know I I've you know for years and I mean truly years uh I've been going back and forth with Jeff Stein about, you know, there there's been a bunch at auction and selling for a hundred grand plus, et cetera. Would I ever go for something like that? Ultimately, I decided against it. You know, the ones that that do the best are the ones that do have the brightest, richest colors. Um, to me, again, I have I don't have concerns about those, but I, you know, it's not necessarily what what I am after. The watch that I was able to purchase has amazing, amazing rich colors, but it it looks old. And again, that that's really what I'm looking for here. And you know, and and I I look we we know the owner of this watch, like there's no issues here at all for sure. Never been serviced by Tag Hoyer, no doubt. And you know, so again, I've this is the perfect kind of level of of patina on a watch like this for me. Yeah, |
| James Stacey | very cool. Well, look, guys, I uh I think that's basically the show. Uh it was a treat to have you both on. Literally a treat. This is uh so much fun to catch up with both of you and get a little bit of time. Russell, you and I, especially since I'm not in New York and now you of course you're not in New York these days. We don't have these overlaps that occasionally meant we could share a cup of coffee or something like that. So this is a real treat. It's a pleasure to see both of you and I I appreciate you spending some time on the show. Anyone listening, if you have questions for Russell, Ben, myself, drop them in the comments. And otherwise if you're enjoying the show, please tell a friend. Thanks so much for listening. |