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Death, Taxes, and Watch Collecting

Published on Mon, 11 Oct 2021 10:00:00 +0000

Make my coffin out of cork and bury me with my Nautilus.

Synopsis

This episode of Hodinkee Radio features host James Stacy joined by senior editor Jack Forster, senior editor John Buse, and deputy editor Nora Taylor for a wide-ranging discussion of current watch industry topics.

The conversation begins with an analysis of Seiko's CEO Akio Naito's frank admission that the company has become too diffuse by trying to be "all things to all people." The panel discusses Seiko's sprawling product range from affordable watches to Grand Seiko pieces approaching $100,000, and debates whether the brand needs to consolidate its identity. They explore the challenges of maintaining Seiko's goodwill while potentially trimming product lines, and compare the company's structure to large Japanese conglomerates like Mitsubishi.

The discussion then shifts to Hodinkee's new video series "Hey Hodinkee," hosted by Jack Forster, which features quick-answer community questions. They discuss a memorable episode about whether one should be buried with their watch, leading to a surprisingly deep conversation about mortality, legacy, and the nature of watch collecting. The team debates the merits of downsizing collections to just a few essential pieces versus maintaining diverse holdings.

The episode also covers Gary Shteyngart's "Watch of the Week" article about the Patek Philippe 3940 perpetual calendar and his consideration of reducing his collection to just three watches. Finally, they discuss a new IWC pilot's chronograph created in collaboration with The Collective, praising its stripped-down, monochromatic aesthetic that recalls IWC's design philosophy from the 1990s.

Transcript

Speaker
James Stacy Great news, everyone. This month Hodinki is expanding its pre-owned watch offering with a special collection of five hundred fun and collectible pre-owned watches. Each and every watch has been verified for authenticity and condition. And if you'd like to see the whole collection, just visit hodinky.com slash shop. As an extra bit of fun, we'd love to see your favorite pre-owned watches. Just share a photo on Instagram and use the hashtag betterwithtime. And don't forget to check the sticker section if you're in need of some fresh new flair. All right, let's get to the show. Hey, it's me, James Stacy, and today we're I've never seen him and the world's most interesting man in the same room, so that's something to think about Next up uh those with keen ears will recognize her voice over talents and without her I'd be lost somewhere in the hell between a Word document and a Google spreadsheet, it's our lovely deputy editor, Nora Taylor. How we doing, Nora? Great. Excellent. And last up, uh but a long way from least, if we had a studio audience, they'd be going nuts for him right now. It's senior editor, John Buse. How you doing, John Oh this is gonna be a good one because there's been some interesting stuff and and I was on vacation, so I haven't really dipped into much of it. I I I kinda did some prep uh yesterday on the plane. But some kind of cool stuff came up, and I wanted to start with um with a story that Jack wrote that's actually based on a story from another Hodinky contributor for the uh Financial Times. Robin wrote a story about some comments made by the current CEO of uh of Seiko. Jack, do you want to bring people up to speed on that? Uh and and kind of why it's why it's an interesting, I think really interesting thing actually?
Jack Forster Yeah, sure. Happy to. It was um by the standards of watch industry CEO announcements. It was surprisingly frank and blunt. So Aki Onaito became CEO of uh Seiko Watch Corporation last April, I believe, and he's been at the job for a little bit of time now. Prior to that he was running Grand Seiko USA. And uh he said that he thought that Seiko really needed a little bit of a wake-up call. I'm gonna paraphrase a little bit his feeling was and what he said to Robin Swithenbank at the FT was that the company had for too long tried to be all things to all people, which certainly if you look at the company's history from a price point standpoint, is not necessarily true across the board for the entire history of Seiko in the United States, but with the introduction of Grand Seiko to the market, all of a sudden we have watches made by Seiko and branded Seiko and Grand Seiko that cover a really, really enormous price range, you know, from a few multiples of tens of dollars all the way up to a hundred thousand roughly a hundred thousand dollars. And his feeling was that Seiko has become it in in trying to be all things to all people, it's sort of become too diffuse, too general.
James Stacy Aaron Powell And I mean, Jack, would you would you agree with that assessment? Do you think like as a roughly newly minted CEO, that's that's probably a a strong way of looking at at how they should be addressing their moves going forward? Aaron Powell I mean it was certainly
Jack Forster an extraordinary thing to say because typically watch brand CEOs say things like everything is absolutely fine. We have an incredibly strong identity. All our movements are made in-house by, you know, elves working in hollow trees in the mountains of whatever mountainous country you you care to pick. But yeah, I think that it is true to a certain extent. You know, if you think about the number of different kinds of timekeeping technologies, the number of price points and the sheer variety of watches that Seiko offers, you know, I want to be careful to distinguish Seiko from Grand Seiko because they've gone to a lot of trouble to make sure that we sort of don't talk about them as if they're the same company and they do have actually different management structures. But taken as a whole, they function a little bit more like a group than like a single watch company. So you think you know, you think of Rolex and you have a very singular sort of identity in mind despite the sheer number of watches that they make. You think of Omega and despite the fact that they make a huge variety of watches, they also have kind of a singular identity for me centered around the Speedmaster and for a lot of people as well. But still, you know, you have a sense of who those companies are. You talk about Seiko and you've got everything you've got a huge, huge, huge range of watches that really feels more analogous to, say, talking about Swatch Group or uh the Rechmont group, then it feels like talking about a sing
James Stacy le watch company. Yeah. It it's a funny thing for him to say that about Seiko proper because Seiko is this huge thing, and then they have side like sister brands, Loris and uh Alba, I believe way back in the day was kind of a dive watch offshoot of a brand that already made arguably the best dive watches at the price point, anyways. So it is kind of an interesting thing for them to say that about their core when they also have these wings that are kind of off-produced. And then and that's before we even get to the NH stuff, the kind of third party resale of movements and such. John, what do you think the identity is for for Se
John Buse iko right now? Yeah, no, I mean I was just gonna add on a few a few additional names. Like even within Seiko, you have of course like prospects and pressage, like even within the brand you know so it's yeah seiko uh and then of course as jack mentioned there's you know grand seiko which is its own you know separate thing but of course you know you know we all we know where it originated for you from and where it came from yeah, I mean Seiko is massive. you If think about the context of Japanese watchmaking, they are the biggest thing there is. And they do everything in-house because they have to, because they're not, you know, in Switzerland, they're not in Europe. So I I I think it's a really interesting point that uh Akio Naito made, you know, that they um have kind of become everything for everyone. But I I think it's almost like a necess if you're going to be that big and if you're going to be so dominant in your country as a watchmaker, it seems like a very natural state of affairs for it to have gotten to that point, but it's interesting that he that he made the point in such a public way in a in such a you know largely read publication.
Nora Taylor I do not to totally steal your job, James, have a question. Oh, please. Which is that from sort of observing Seiko, how we write about it, how people respond to it, it seems like the company has a ton of goodwill. Like people love it and they are if not as obsessively collecting it as they are like Rolex, they are very fond of the brand. And so I'm wondering if there is a sense that like if there is a way to winnow down on the brand's identity without losing that goodwill, which kind of think I think comes
James Stacy from being something for everybody. Yeah, I would say I think they'd have to discover kind of the sweet spot of all these many kind of different lineages they have and then preserve that and try and maybe trim some of the fat. But it's kind of a weird challenge because there there is a a different sort of ethos to the way that some of these huge Japanese companies work. If you think of companies like Mitsubishi, Epson, you might know Mitsubishi for making cars, but they make sewing machines and they make uh tanker boats and they they make giant industrial engines and motors and things like that. These are companies that often have hundreds of arms into different businesses and and I think it came kinda kinda came naturally to Seiko and they and it's so we're still talking about all wat Yeah, I me
John Buse an you mentioned s uh Epson, which is interesting because
Jack Forster that that in itself is part of Seiko. So that just that kind of goes to the point of how big Seiko is, you know? They have they have this rather Byzantine corporate structure as well. It's uh it it's uh an intellectual challenge in and of itself just to figure out which holding company is actually responsible for which brands and kind of who produces what. So you know there's I mean Epson is as John pointed out part of Seiko as well. And I have read breakdowns of Seiko's corporate structure overall on a bunch of different occasions and it sticks in my head as poorly as Paddock Philippe reference numbers. I just can't Yeah, it's tough. You know this is th this is this is my business and I can't keep track of exactly, you know, what goes where. And if we're just talking about watches, y you know, one of the th I mean to Nora's point, one of the things that was r that is really uh fantastic about Seiko is that they do offer such a huge variety of products and people people do get very attached to them because they're increasingly uh isolated in terms of offering, you know, relatively affordable mechanical watches. We when when I first started getting into mechanical watches, my first wristwatch was a seiko five my first mechanical wristwatch was a seiko five my second mechanical wristwatch was a diver was the skx double zero seven so seiko is the end is the entry point to this wonderful little addiction of ours this wonderful little hot, which is now not so little, actually. But um I don't know for them to I I understand why they split off Grand Seiko from Seiko because I think that that was a critical sort of move for them in order to distinguish the higher-end product from the stuff that's more democratically priced. And I think one of the disadvantages, though, of order of of offering so many different products is it feels these days like no sooner do you get attached to a particular model than it's discontinued and replaced by something kind of incrementally similar, but just different enough that you have to fall in love all over again. Like Trader Joe's
James Stacy . It's like Trader Joe's, yeah. Where are my Marcona almonds? This is all I want. Goodness sake. That's a really good delicious. But it and it's a funny thing that you mentioned the Grand Seco thing, because that's what came to my mind is I felt like they kind of already did this once. They wanted they wanted to make sure that the the higher end price point had its own home, its own philosophy, it's uh these sort of soft walls, a garden, if you will, and to leave the Seiko, you know, sort of seco proper and like Jack said, the more democratic price point where it already was. I wonder if they'll decide to kind of break in so prospects will become kind of its own brand rather than a wing of of say I don't know you break up something this big. And and also I think there's something good in almost everything, every line, every sort of thought process that they take on watches and they can make watches so quickly and and and to such a high level of quality r relative to to the uh price point, I I wonder where they'll I don't know where you go like, Well, we just don't need this anymore. You might cut something that doesn't sell in North America that sells beautifully in South America or Central Europe or or you know in in more you know closer to home countries around uh Japan. It's uh I think this would be a huge challenge. I just it's interesting not only that they would recognize it b and vocalize it to a a major publication, but that it came right from the CEO. It's uh I think quite promising for the brand. Pragmatic as well.
Jack Forster I I mean I agree. We'll s and we'll we'll see what happens. I don't see them eliminating entire product lines though. I mean or breaking them off as I mean, is is there really a market for prospects
James Stacy if it's not Seiko prospects anymore? Yeah, then it's Alba or or Loris or like it becomes some of these ones that I feel we've kind of seen them and that they show up in various markets. Like I don't actually know, like is Lauris something that you would also find in the States, probably, right? You did. I I know it from like you know, malls in Canada. So I don't know if sometimes they were making these thinner and thinner slices for smaller and smaller markets. And maybe they need to go in the other direction. Aaron Powell It's it's funny. We've kicked aro
Jack Forster und the term mall watch, and I've actually tried to kick it to death a couple of times uh on the site. But there used to be a whole category of watches that were called drugstore watches that don't exist anymore. And you know, you would find these I'm sure you have these in Canada as well when when you were a kid, James, you'd walk into a drugstore and you'd see these rotating displays of affordably priced watches in that I think thirty bucks would have been pushing it. And you would see you would see entry-level Cassios and entry-level Seiko's all battery-powered quartz. And that was sort of what Albo was. Um at least some of their products were you know what we used to call drugstore wat
James Stacy ches. Yeah. Up here you'd see yeah, it would just be a watch that said quartz really big on it. Which is like fine. Like uh and you buy it next to a pair of foster grant uh sunglasses or or something like that. Yeah, at the drugstore for sure. I kind of miss drugstore wat
Jack Forster ches. I do too, actually. Let let's buy some. If you were really lucky, there would be also a carousel next to the drugstore watches of
James Stacy drugstore watch bands. That's right. Oh yeah. I w had a few of those. I had a really good one for a Timex way back in the day that was um like uh a sort of very busy pattern on a Velcro strap. And when I say busy, like almost ludicrously so like like a like one of the trapper keeper or something like that, or it's a little like one of those um Patagonia like cinchillas. It's just because there's there's a lot happening. Say by the bell opening credits. Exactly. Yes, exactly, Dora. Thank you very much. Yes. It was you could wear a little bit of that vibe with your Iron Man, uh uh which I you know uh eight-year-old James really liked that a lot. Uh to these days I would just if they've made a gray one that's what I'd be buying. All right. So I I think that's that's the the Seiko story. I think this is really interesting. Uh you should definitely check out the post. Uh we'll put it in the show notes and link out to uh Robin's piece for the Financial Times. I I think it's a fascinating story. Uh I'm really interested to see how this develops in their communications moving forward. Cause like once the CEO kind of says it, they're gonna have to reference it in some way, either with direct decisions that we'll have to kind of glean or more directly in communication. And I think it'll be interesting to see what we see as far as their strategy change and if the strategy will even affect this market, let's say the North American market versus all these other places that they're they're managing. So I'd consider this something of a developing story. I look forward to chatting with you guys uh at length about it in the future. Uh next up, I did want to get to um because we've got uh two stars of Hey Ho Dinky here on the call, which I'm pretty excited about. Uh so this is uh this is a a relatively new product. How many episodes have we done so far? Didn't we just do episode six? Yeah, we just put up episode six and recorded seven, eight, nine yesterday. Yeah, I'm sure you guys have recorded a ton. They're not numbered, so I thought I'd ask. But so Hey Hodinky is this new kind of um uh product that we've launched. If you've missed it and you're managing to listen to the podcast, I'm a huge fan of yours for doing so. But you should also check out Hey Odinky. It's uh it's been really fun so far. So it's basically a uh you know a community question and answer and it's it's Jack in front of the camera, kind of off script and and I've really been enjoying it and and I think even this most recent one which came up just this morning as we're recording it that this will be a few days before the podcast goes up and uh and it I I thought this was really fun because it it brought up because some qu a question I've never once thought about was like, should I be buried with my watch? I I think I changed my mind like two times during this. So Jack, you're the host of this. Uh Nori, you're the voice of the audience, the uh you're the God voice in there. Unless I'm misattributing somehow. No, that's that's all me, baby. That's fantastic. So I I like this a lot. I think this is a really solid uh thing. You know, I think like a lot of people I wish they were more like ten or fifteen minutes, but also knowing how much work it takes to make anything, it's quite a stretch. So I want to get to d getting buried with your watch because I think this is a great question that I never thought about. But Jack, tell me about how this kind of project kind of launched and what it's like to shoot them
Jack Forster . Well we thought to ourselves, you know, we do a fair or we have we have historically done a fair amount of pretty high touch, fairly technically sophisticated videos and we wanted to do something that felt a little bit more immediate, a little bit more not run and gun necessarily, but something something that was a little bit different from some of the more serious you know, talking watches, for example, is one of is certainly our most popular video franchise. But it's a it's it's a significant amount of work to do. You have to find a collector to to work with and hope that they're good on camera and you know, every every single episode is s sort of an encyclopedic look at an encyclopedia at a collection that it could potentially encyclopedic in its depth and breadth. And Hey Hodiki gives us a way of doing something that's a little bit uh quicker and lighter, but also lets us sort of talk directly to the audience, which is something I don't think we've ever really done in video before. I think the closest we probably came was a few times on uh the late lamented Friday lot. Well, I say late Lamented Friday live, but it's certainly not lamented by the folks who had to put it together technically every week. I think they still have PTSD from setting up an entire television stud
James Stacy io every Friday and then taking it down again. Well and we also we we were really kind to the people who made that show because we would often record just as traffic in in and around Soho really got to the point where people were taking out all of their days' anger on their horn. Yeah. Friday. Our office is one of the busi
Jack Forster est corners in Soho and doing uh doing it on a Friday was really just uh I mean it was a miserable experience for the sound people because people would s people start leaning on their horns on that corner at about one o'clock in the afternoon trying to get out of the city and uh boy oh boy it was uh it it it could
James Stacy get loud. Yeah. People just heading for the tunnel in the bridge, just trying to get out. A couple of times that we recorded stuff in the office back in the day, you know, I haven't been down to New York since before uh the pandemic, but when we recorded, I mean, just just trying to keep your cool, when you would finally get your memorized line and the beats perfect. then And the third word from the end, somebody would blast a horn, you know, 30 feet below, and you just be like, all right, this is the day I kill someone. I don't know who it's gonna be. I'm gonna find somebody. It's probably the guy that just honked his horn. There's a surpris
Jack Forster ing number of trucks going through that intersection with I don't know what kind of horns they have. I mean I'm not a truck horn specialist. I'm sure that they're out there. But you know, these like it sounds like some sort of giant air horn that would be more suitable for use on a super tanker than on a truck. Yeah. It
James Stacy it's like a sometimes it's just absolutely insane. And and you're like you're in a room that's hot and padded so that it's quiet and maybe the AC's been shut off for an hour because that's how long If you'd gotten this right like six tries ago, then we wouldn't be worrying about this specific horn, would we? So sometimes it can be stressful. But uh yeah, I think uh I think uh shooting these is an interesting thing, and you guys are able probably to bat shoot a bunch of them. Maybe the technical side of it's not super interesting to those outside, but how many questions are we getting and how do you kind of pick which ones to go with? They're sort of fun
Nora Taylor neled in. I think Nick kind of goes through the first batch and removes the ones that would not be all that entertaining or far too specific, and then Jack and Davy kind of go through and pick the ones that seem the most interesting. And then there are always some game day decisions, which are a lot of fun
James Stacy . For sure, yeah. I I mean, I my guess is a good 75% are like should I buy this watch or this watch? And it's always like two watches that are kind of good watches but aren't like fascinating things to then report back on. Do I buy this do I buy an explorer or an OP? And you're like, ask me if you want to be buried in your watch, apparently.
Jack Forster That's actually a question that never really occurred to me either. And this is one of the things that I really enjoy about doing the show is some of the stuff that comes in, I'm like, I never would have thought to ask that. I mean, I don't know John, would you want to be buried in a watch? U
John Buse h probably not. I don't think so. Yeah, I'd rather I'd rather let I'd rather let someone else go ahead and enjoy that watch. I don't think I'll need it anymore.
Nora Taylor Actually one of the first things I pitched, I didn't really know that much about watches, but I liked the clever title was I was like, how about a story called You Can't
Jack Forster I can't think of too many examples. I mean there's Gunter Bloomline who is uh one of the co f one of the co founders of modern Lonzona. I mean really the driving force behind it. And he's buried in his what is it, a platinum datagra
John Buse ph? Yeah. I mean if I had like revived a brand and was like, you know, responsible for it more or less, then maybe my views on it would be different. But as it is as it stands, I'm only wearing watches, not making them, so. Yeah I think of uh I think
Jack Forster you know, I think of uh I think is it uh Shelley's poem Osimandius about seeing uh uh a giant statue of the pharaoh in the desert and on the base of the statue it says I am Osimandius, king of kings, look on my works ye mighty in despair
James Stacy I think to get to that level you can't you can't be buried with a watch. It's like one on your wrist. They just need to shovel them all next to you into the box. Just kind of sprink sprinkle them in there for just like it, like being buried with a small fortune. And then like hundreds of years later, just when the archae
John Buse ologists come, they'll be like we found a box of watches with like a little skeleton kind
Jack Forster of watch discovery. Yeah, actually that's something. I mean not to not not to give it away, but that's something that Nora and I kind of got into in uh in the in the actual episode. You know, it's like it's a slippery slope, right? Because I mean first it starts with the watch and then it's like all of your watches and then it's all of your watches plus like your favorite dog and then it's your favorite dog and your favorite horse and then like the person who designed your tomb and you know your favorite concubines and whoever knows all your secrets. Wh
James Stacy ere does it where does it end? Yeah. Yeah. At a certain point, you just uh you gotta take it all or you gotta take nothing. And uh I think uh Nora Nora, where do you land on this? You you got to read the question, so I'm sure you've been it's been kicking around in your brain for the last uh little while. I don't think I'll be
Nora Taylor I would not be buried with my watch. I would have my body turned into a diamond put on someone else's watch. Okay. This I like.. I think that could be a few Like on the crown or one of the hour markers. Yeah, one of the twelve, you know, just so it's always like all right. Yeah, of course, for sure. I feel like you would make a fine cabochon. Thank
James Stacy you, Jack. This is a very sweet thing to say for sure. Within the parlance of this specific podcast, that's a very nice thing to say. I'm g
Nora Taylor onna pull that into my obituary while I mean turned into a diamond. Yeah, I don't know. I feel like it seems dangerous to be buried with a very expensive watch, but if you had like just sort of a timex that you kicked around in every day, I think it would be kind of nice to
James Stacy be buried as you were. I I kind of I I like the idea of of being buried with like a simple watch, almost like a like a another little tribute to time, your time is ended, or something like that. But I did think I my perspective was almost the opposite where I would like to be I think I would I would be okay with being buried with watches if they were good enough that someone might dig me up. I like the idea of grave robbers. Like in reality, when I pass I will enter a moment of extreme irrelevance. Like this is this is the end of of you know the the point, right? For me. For me. And uh and I think it'd be funny to know like, well, if I put enough watches in there, if I if I take the right one with me, someone might come visit. Well and you know, like watchmaking, grave robbing is a fine archaic anachronistic way to way to make a life. A grave for sure. And
Nora Taylor also living on in the memories of your family as one of the most spiteful people where you could ask everyone what they most like to inherit and then take it with you. Come in in the box, put it in the box.
James Stacy Oh my gosh. Wow. That's one way to do it. Lots of options. You have that you have that Wes Anderson-esque reading of the will. Everybody's there, but they're sitting in a dark room, kind of disparate, not that close.
Jack Forster value that uh would inspire grave robbery. Is it a ten thousand dollar watch, twenty thousand, a hundred thousand? Would you would you rob a grave for a submariner or would you not rob a rob a grave for a submariner, but you would ro rob a grave for an autilus? Does it depend on the fluctuation of Are you b getting buried with boxes and paper
John Buse ? Because that's gonna change the value. What if you were buried in a fifty-seven eleven in like twenty sixteen? But you know, by twenty twenty one it's you know, it's a totally different situation. Yeah. Oh my goodness. Ye
James Stacy ah, a whole different world. Plus, then you could get a coffin that's made out of the like the cork, which is kind of like the Nautilus box. Ooh, you could box you could box yourself like the box. Yeah, if it if you had like a special speedy, you could have a bright I mean a bright red coffin sounds rad. Never seen that done, so let's I'm I'm on board
Jack Forster for sure. I would be very surprised if there wasn't like insane paddock collector out there who didn't get buried in like a man-sized cork Nautilus box? Sounds awesome.
James Stacy It's like a r it's your last chance to have a race car big. This is the most macabre episode of uh Honiki Radio I've ever been a part of, I have to say, by the way. John, I'm so I'm I'm pretty jet-lagged. And I've had a lot of coffee. I've had a lot of coffee. Anyways, I don't know that we could take this a whole lot further or that anyone would want us to. I do want to know, uh, Jack, do you have any tips and or do you have any tips for people who want to get their question on the show. Best case, you've you've done a few, maybe you've been through what, fifty, maybe twenty-five, thirty questions at this point. Is there a tone line that kind of connects them? Not too specific, but also, you know, somewhat morbid? Yeah. Death sex, and, taxes, if you can work those
Nora Taylor into your your questions. Yeah, not super specific. I think giving Jack I don't know Jack if you like questions where you're like I can come down with a specific watch and that's the answer, but I kind of like when something gives Jack the opportunity to dig into history or put something in context, like pulling out just a little that there's kind of a tidbit that can be mined in it.
Jack Forster Yeah, it's it's it's you know, I mean that's that's ki I like kinda like to talk about what I like to write about when it comes to watches and anything that kinda that sort of touches on a a slightly larger world. Certainly if you're talking about what watch you want to be buried in that touches on questions of mortality and you know, how you sort of represent yourself in And they're questions that are just that w would require too lengthy an answer. So I what I what I may try to do is answer some of the hey ho dinky questions in writing rather than on a three to five minute video because I think that they're you know, I mean they're there are questions with a lot of merit. And just because I've heard a question before doesn't mean it's not worth asking and worth answering again. You know, I've been doing this for uh for a disgracefully long time and you know beyond a certain point you're you if you feel like you've written every story that you can possibly write and you're just uh you're just rephrasing things. But you know, people are coming into the watch world, coming into watch collecting at an astonishing rate nowadays. I mean I never thought you know, twenty years ago if somebody had told me that my little hobby would be this big a deal. Um, you know, sort of on and on a global stage, no less, I I would have bet real money against it. So I think that some of these some of these more general questions that I might feel like have been addressed and don't need to be addressed again, I think they actually do need to be addressed again. And then the watchmaking landscape changes too. What was true 20 years ago is not true today. Also, if you can set Jack up to sing, that
Nora Taylor will also help get it in the video. Shameless plug for the magazine. Your question could get in the magazine. There's a lot of written hey ho dinky in there where stuff is really meaty and interesting. So something to no
James Stacy odle on. Yeah. So find a thread but leave leave enough for Jack's curiosity to do most of the work. And uh and Jack, if you if you end up with uh questions that you think would be best left to a group of people, we can do a hodinky radio that's just the deep questions or the long questions or the the offcuts. We'll find a name for it I'm sure. Off cuts yeah. You are jet lagged. Okay, let's do another topic. Alright, so the other thing that's come up on the site recently that I've really been enjoying because I read them all as a as a back-to-back is the watch of the week stuff. So this is idea of just to highlight a watch that some a specific personality within the kind of hodinky space feels strongly about. Not necessarily that they even own or have owned. Maybe they want to, maybe it's just one that they like the backstory of or whatever. And so far, I mean Ben kicked it off with a really great piece about his Reverso, which is a really fun story about kind of entering a different part of watches than he had kind of started in, which I I really I love watches that bridge you into other aspects other whether if you're dive watch guy maybe it's your first big dress watch if it's if it's yeah in Ben's case this was kind of his first modern nice watch which was a good one and then we had a cool one from Logan about this really funky Zinn uh that's like a hunting theme Zen, which is uh super cool. And then the the one that I think probably would be the most useful for us today is Gary Steingart was uh kind enough to write us a piece about his uh kind of continued love and reverence of uh Patek thirty nine forty in white gold, uh which is a a really beautiful but very subtle uh perpetual calendar from uh Patek. And I like this one because he kind of gets into a an an area of discussion that I spend a lot of time thinking about and it's this idea of should I get rid of most of what I've amassed in getting to know watches and learn about watches and love watches for a a big a kind of a big purchase. And in this case, he's he's talking about kind of the differences between keeping what he's got or selling almost everything to get a 3940 and holding on to a gnomos and an aquanaut that he has uh as sort of alternatives for either when he's uh swimming, which he likes to do, or traveling to areas where you might want not want to take uh something like an aquanut or in this case a uh thirty-nine forty. What did you guys think about this piece? Where do you stand on the 3940? We can we can start there.
John Buse Yeah, I mean the thirty nine forty is a real classic. And um I I I love this piece because it kind of brought it brought it back to where like Gary kind of came into our world when he was researching um, you know, watch collectors and uh wrote a fantastic piece for the New Yorker in which Hodinki was mentioned. I think Jack was directly quoted in that story. And yeah, so there it kind of it's a little bit of the backstory of how that how that story was researched and that's you should go read the the article on uh on our site if you're interested. But um yeah, I mean I think you know Gary obviously is a fantastic writer. He's hilarious, I would say. And um you know his appr and you know just the notion of becoming like a one one watch person is something that I think a lot of us have uh thought about it's kind of like a romantic thing you know to what what would you do if you if you had to just take one watch and really just kind of live with it and be happy with it, what would it be? Um, and so to entertain that in the context of this new rubric that we've launched, Watch of the Week, uh, I thought was a really smart idea. And uh yeah, Gary's a Gary, I'll read you know virtually anything Gary writes. I typically uh I've read you know one of his books and I I read most of the stuff he writes in the New Yorker, and it's just great to see his byline on Hod
James Stacy inky. Absolutely. You know, oddly enough, as an aside, uh I've been rewatching through all of No Reservations and uh and was delighted because a handful of hodinky kind of general personalities kind of pop up in the show early on, and then he's in the the New York episode as they go to uh a Russian area like Brighton Beach or something like that, and uh really, really fantastic just to say, Oh, hey, hey, look at Gary. It's kind of exciting. I don't know Gary well enough to like text him about it and be like, Hey, I saw you on a show that you recorded ten years ago. But you know, I I really like it when uh when he does this sort of stuff and uh I also like that in he speaks in the in the piece um with this concept of it would be fun to have your day to day watch be a watch that ha kind of has to be worn in that it's an automatic perpetual that he doesn't want to put it on a winder. He wants to make this keep it alive by by wearing it. And uh and I like he he aligns this thought with by saying it's a Fausterian sort of position. Jack, where do you where do you land on this? Do you think he ca captured some of the uh the jackness of it all? Aaron Powell You know, I think well first of all I think that the three watches he proposes
Jack Forster as a sort of um endgame are are I mean it's that's yeah it's it's really hard to think how you would improve on that. And it, you know, they're they're matched really, really nicely to his lifestyle. He swims a heroic distance every day, by the way. Um, you know, one to two hours. If you follow his Instagram, you can see him consuming probably I don't know, thousand thousands of calories of delicious food every day. And he's uh he you know, he could the guy could take a bath in a shotgun barrel. I mean he's uh he he definitely he definitely burns it off. I don't know, I find the idea of I would I love the idea of getting down to we know what's really like es essensentitialal in the watches that you have and I love the idea of a day-to-day relationship. But for me it's a very theoretical love because you know the reality is I look at the uh the tops of the dresser in my bedroom and you c you can't see the wood for all of the watches and ancillary watch crap that's piled up on it. And the top of the air conditioner in my bedroom probably has tw I'm not kidding twenty solar powered G Shocks on it, just like sitting there with their faces turned towards the I mean, it's absurd. And I think to myself, I mean, this is this is this is this is 20 years of you know, hunting around and if I see stu I I mean, I fall in love with watches really easily. Um and I still I still on on a certain level I love absolutely everything that I've got and I don't want to deacquisition everything any ev anything. And it it seems like it seems like too much work anyway. And every once in a while I think about taking all the G Shocks into the office and just, you know, like keep one or two like you know, there's a range band that I really like, there's a couple of older, you know, diver models that I really like. But see, then that's how the thought process goes. I'm like, well, not that one. Yeah, and and and not that one. And and probably not that one. Oh, and this one's cool. Oh, and this one reminds me of, you know, this particular event and this one reminds me of this trip that I took and oh this was my backup watch that w that one time I went to Iceland and bought two really expensive watches with me and only ended up wearing the G-Shock the whole time. I mean I just can't I can't seem to get rid of them. For all that I for all for all that I love the idea of having you know three watches from a philosophical standpoint, I I find myself absolutely immobilized by the sheer number of them for which I would have to find a good home and I feel like I can't just like put them out and say
John Buse , you know, people take these. It's so hard. The only the only context I've ever parted with watches was so that I could have money to buy m an additional watch. Like that's that's like I never like get rid of them. I always if I ever sell them, it's for sure to like fund
James Stacy another one. Yeah. You know, John, I think your I actually when I think of someone with a really tight, thoughtful collection, it's like yours comes to mind. Oh, thank you. Because it seems like you'd really take your time when you buy watches. I I will buy on a whim. I will buy on an eBay a jet lagged eBay purchase. That could definitely happen sometime today. All bets are off, really, at any point. And and I feel like when I walk into Jack's office, I've not been to Jack's home to see his garden of uh G Shocks, but when I walk into Jack's office, I do feel some kinship with if somebody asked you for the watch that wasn't on your wrist, you'd kind of turn around and you'd go, Well, it's not there. Oh, here it is. It's on I I put it on this book or it's it's it's around. It's a but there's there's things uh uh uh kind of amassed and and I would have the same issue where I can look at all of them and go, Well, Lord knows I don't need all of these, but where do I start cutting? And John, when you when you're picking a watch, do you find that that just because it's kind of new and there that can be enough or or is there it has to fit a mol
John Buse d for you? It's somewhere in the middle. I mean it sometimes it's because it has to fit a mold, sometimes just because it's like w,ow this, is great, I want it. But typically a good amount of thought goes into it. It's you know, um I I I don't buy things on a whim really. I mean, I think a watch just has to kind of call to me for a little while and I have to like really want it to to part with you know my money for it. That was certainly the case with, you know, I mean I I bought, you know, I bought a Rolex a couple years ago and that was something that I like wanted badly for a while. Same thing with a with a tutor, uh black bay fifty eight I bought. Yeah, those are like my two big watches that I bought recently. And then I guess the Grand Seco GMT would be like the other one that I that I um would be a big one for me. But uh yeah, that's it's uh I'm not like I think yeah you and Jack definitely strike me as guys who have have more watches than I do. I think a problem? We can just use the we can use the easy terminology here
James Stacy . No, I mean I think it's a I think it's a I think it's good thing. I think you guys are enjoying life and enjoying your watches When I was uh when I was reading this piece of Gary's, I was thinking, you know, uh I could see coming to this very a very similar position, like three watches, one, like well, in Gary's case, all three are pretty big flexes, but I would try and swing for one big flex. But the funny thing is is I think I I I always tell myself I'm I wouldn't bother doing it while I still like am actively working in the watch industry and like I review watches and I feel like a lot of this keeps my enthusiasm at a certain level of pace. Whereas if I just stopped doing this, I would have to spend the same money on speakers and I only have so many rooms in my house or spend it on bits to like tack onto my Jeep and eventually I'll run out of room on that. Like it's it's this kind of bubbling over that you just have to focus at a certain level. And in some ways, it's been watches for a while. Nora, for you, maybe on the on the earlier side of starting your collection, do you even think about this or is it like I I just want to experience watches when I buy them and that's that's more of the point. Like you could save yourself everything that Jack and I are talking about.
Nora Taylor I uh got some very strong advice from Dakota because we were ships in the night before starting here and he was like whatever you do don't buy a watch in your first six months don't buy a watch in your first year because you're gonna be so thrilled that you just like know what they are that you are gonna like start collecting because you want to like get that thrill. It is helpful, I think, to watch people be like, I wish I, or like, I wish I could be someone who has fewer watches. Yeah, I don't know. It is my natural instinct is to be like, yeah, I like it. Let's get it. You know, doesn't matter the price range. I think I'll probably find a time to wear it. I'll mix it up like every a different watch for a different day and a different outfit, you know. Absolutely. I have wanted to be someone who has a capsule wardrobe and has one watch, and I know that that is just not who I am going to be. So it is kind of a um I'm trying to slow down that impulse and hopefully land somewhere between the John version of collecting and the James and Jack version of collecting. And also right now I have to buy a couch, so that's keeping me from buying a watch
James Stacy . And then you can fill it with watch money over time. That's what couches are for, I think. But yeah, the um it it is kind of a funny thing to to consider like if you get into this and and let's say you're you're early on and you're collecting and and you're at the point where maybe you want to buy twenty Seiko's a month for a little while just just to really just to feel the burn a little bit, you don' gett to find some pace. But on the other hand, if you just slow down and just read about them, which doesn't cost as much, nearly as much really, you could kind of pace your way out to more specific pieces. And and I've kind of met people who actually did manage to do that. They came to and then nobody avoids the three or four or five or twenty Seiko's. Like that's just how life is gonna be. Uh you know, you gotta r walk before you can run, etc. And uh and but I have met people who were like thoughtful about it from the starting point about where they wanted their collection to be in 20 years or something like that. And that that's like an investor mindset, not in terms of they're they're worried about their return, but they're thinking on on this like on a scale that outpaces my entire like tenure with watches. And uh and I I think I operate a little bit more on the gut, but I'm not I'm not sure that's a better a better uh you know way to to approach the market. I mean
Jack Forster feeling the burn you, know, feeling that little burst of serotonin that you get when you know that you've ordered the watch and it's on the way. I mean, it really is I mean it's addicting in a very specific, strict neuropsychological sense. You know, I mean I I hate to admit this. I actually I don't hate to admit it, because if I actually hated to admit it I wouldn't admit it. One of the first stories that I did for Hodinki back in 2015 was about a Seiko 5. It was called the $75 Watch That Looks Like a Million Bucks and it was a super popular story. One of the one of the most popular stories we've we've ever published. And I have literally bought that exact same watch three more times over the last six years just because just because I don't know, because I have a problem. I mean it's it's ridiculous. You know, the the the the the fourth time that it shows up, you you know, you just start to ask yourself
John Buse , what what the hell is wrong with you? Can we can we unpack this a little bit? Like are are you buying this watch the exact same model, like reference number for yourself or are you buying it to give away? Like do you do you you had it's the exact s are you just saying Sacle five or this exact same model? The exact same model. Are you losing them or wh
Jack Forster I mean I I don't No, no. I I just like knowing that one's on the way. You know, if I'm if I'm having a tough month or I'm not feeling particularly good about myself or you know, I've just had a fight with one of my kids or with my wife or or or for no reason at all. I just uh you know I just like knowing that it's that's that's coming in. And is it like the
Nora Taylor tracking that is the highest like peak when it's like all right it's out for dil like in the emotional arc of like clicking order to it getting on your wrist, what is the peak? Where do you feel the best
John Buse ? Out for delivery. Out for delivery is the best feeling, yeah. Yeah. That's a that's true of anything that I buy actually. Can I a
James Stacy sk James still noodling on this. I'm still thinking. I can't I'm not sure. Like the when the when they hand the box to you, that's pretty good. And you like you're like scrambling to see w if it came from the right address or if it's like a pair of shoes you bought a while ago that you had also forgotten
Jack Forster about. Out for delivery makes you feel like there's hope for the future, man. You know, if I've read too many articles on climate change, I'm like, I need to order that Saco V again. It's
Nora Taylor not all bleak. I just I need the stability of this one process. So this is a bit of a tangent, but in starting my collecting, the greatest fear right now for me is losing a watch of monetary value. I'm not gonna lose this couch. Like it's you know, gonna stay there. Have you ever lost a watch? And how do you deal with the fear of like it can get get replaced, it can yada yada yada, but like losing a watch and then it's your fault too. Like you didn't get it stolen. You lost it. Like how do you deal with that particular fear
John Buse . Insurance makes me feel okay about it, but yeah, but if it's something that's ultimately irreplaceable, you know, like you can only get one of these, then just gotta be careful. I can't wa
James Stacy it for Hodenki insurance to come to Canada. Right now it's it's a much more complicated process for me. I you know the funny thing is is the losing a watch, I think that I have to put that in the same category as being buried with your watch is a question a concern that never came across my mind. I don't think I've ever thought of that I could lose one. I misplace a lot of things in my life, but I seldom lose things like permanently, in that I can remember a few t shirts that I wish I still knew where they were, but other than that, things are still roughly in their in their area. Uh losing a watch. I don't know. I mean that's now that you mention it, it's I find it scary. Yeah, I have some anxiety over this. I'm I'm wondering if I've lost one and just didn't realize it. Every once in a while I'm going through my closet and I find a watch that I've forgotten that I own. Yeah. That's happened to me once or twice. That's something I don't love admitting, but if I'm with Jack on this one, I I definitely can go through my watch cabinet ever like every six months and be like
Jack Forster forgot I had that. I mean one of the th I I I have lost n nothing of any significant value, but I have lost watches maybe twice over the last twenty years. I'm and when you can't help yourself from accumulating as many of the damn things as I have, I suppose it's kind of inevitable. Um but I'm also really good at abdicating responsibility and shifting blame to other people in other circumstances. So uh that's that's that's usually my first reflexes. Well, it was
James Stacy it wasn't my fault, man. This series of s scenarios happened in which case this was inevitable and I was a victim. Fair question. Uh you know, it it it is a funny thing, the the whole concept, not only of losing the watch, but of of this kind of concern where not only maybe not even without a dream watch on the other side. This like concern for what's the right size of a quote unquote collection or how many watches, too many watches, at what point if you're not say wearing them, should you move them on to another owner, that's right. Like the question comes up a lot in the in the community. And uh you know, we've got a few minutes left and I still want to get to at least one more uh one more topic we've got on the list here. But if you guys were to make that play, let's say sells 80-90% of what you've got. What what would be the the watch that could fill that big hole in the collection, even just at first glance? Because it's a kind of a tough question.
John Buse But probably I I'd'd keep my GMT master too, my my Batman. Just because you know I when I when I think about the GMT master, I often think about um Art Armag uh magazine story we did a while ago with Bruce Talman and how he wore his GMT for so long and how um I really do I mean it's a very sporty watch of course it's like not a dress watch the a GMT a Rolex but it's I I really do think it is the kind of watch that can that you can like you know can be worn all the time. It's a travel watch. I know you know you're with me, James, in terms of like the versatility uh of a GMT. Love it for sure. Yeah. I think if I were if I were gonna have one watch
James Stacy it would have to be a GMT and it would be that one Jack, what do you think if if you had to prune the G Shocks, clean off the dresser top, make some room, make some You know, not
Jack Forster a day goes by that I don't consider this question and not a day goes by that I find it completely impossible to answer because y you know one of the things I've realized about myself over the years is that I and this is one of the things that makes writing about watches interesting, you know, to me, is that I tend to uh create kind of mental associations with things pretty readily. And I can't at the the moment I think about A-Watch, I think about all of the other watches that are similar to it, but which I also like because they share certain formal characteristics with that particular watch. Like for instance, I have a gold tank LC and it reminds me of Reversos, and I don't own a Reverso right now, but I'd like to own a Reverso, and then I think about the reversos and I think go back to Cartier and I think about the tank basculante, which I also think is a fabulous watch. And then I start thinking about like, you know, sort of like mid century, mid twentieth century to like the nineteen seventies, ultra-thin gold watches in general, and I I realize don't own a quorum gold watch, gold coin watch, and you know, it just sort of goes on and on and on. And before I know it, I've, you know, uh put up the blinds so that the G Shocks can get their daily dose of sunlight, and I have failed once again to make anything even remotely resembling a rational decision
James Stacy . Or an irrational decision for that matter. Or maybe that means that I will go to my grave without knowing what it feels like to be decisive about watches for once in my life. We can we can throw them all in the box with you if that's what you want, John. Thanks. No problem. Nora, how about you? Any uh any kind of grails on on the on the horizon now? Something you would dream of having, even if you didn't have to
Nora Taylor uh sell anything? Yeah. I mean, if I were to sell every watch I own, I could probably get a really nice Seiko. And then for Grail watches, I am I really like that AP black ceramic that just came out in the thirty four millimeter. Yeah. Sell a lot of couches for that
James Stacy . That's a great watch. That's a watch you could be buried in, no question. Nobody would question that. And they would the robbers would want to know. Oh for sure. You get a matching headstone in black ceramic. I love this idea. Maybe don't even put any words on it so it's like the uh the thing from two thousand and one. Just leave leave a of spare femur at the base of it It's almost Halloween, right?
Jack Forster Little bit spooky. This is a related question. I mean, would you have a would you have a headstone or a grave marker shaped like a watch? Is that the ultimate cheesy postmortem flex? This this this has been has been quite an episode uh of Hodinky Radio, by the way. We've we've touched on death, we've touched on loss, we've touched on addiction, we've touched on neurochemistry. I mean
James Stacy uh wow yeah and then as far as I'm concerned it you know put a button on this topic, this super fun topic. Uh I I could definitely see myself uh selling everything for just a couple watches. And in my book, I would want to hang on to my Explorer 2 uh Seiko dive watch and then grab something kind of you know, like I like I mentioned in a in a recent chat with Cole on the show, something needlessly resplendent. Probably like a long of one, like a solid gold. I like the with the solid case back long a ones as well, the earlier. I thought those are pretty rad. I could see it, yeah, a tank, a solid gold tank it'd be something solid gold and like too too classy so if I needed to I if I needed to watch to say something that I I'm not capable of saying that would be the the the move for sure. I think that's the direction it would go. We are getting towards the end of the show and I did want to get to one more topic. So let's end on a high note with pilot's watches. John had suggested chatting about this new IWC pilot's watch that was made with the collective. John, you want to fill us in on that? This is a story that I only kind of tangentially caught through Instagram uh on the flight. Yeah, sure. So I mean uh
John Buse Collective, as probably some of the listeners know, is like this uh Silicon Valley founded um collector group and they do limited editions with with watch brands. I think so far they've done one with Erwork, one with JN Shapiro. Uh I think that there was a Zenith. And there may be one other one I'm missing. But the anyway, the mo the most recent one is IWC. They did a pilot watch that kind of looks back to the uh reference 3706, which is one of the early, you know, uh mid-1990s IWC uh chronographs. And I think they did a really good job with this collaboration. It's you know stainless steel, very simple black dial, stark white, very you know, highly legible numerals and and um displays. And it's just a it's a it's a nice watch. It's 41 millimeters. And it's really just these uh these two guys, uh, Gabe and Asher, the founders, looking at their, you know, one of their favorite brands, uh, one of their favorite eras of that brand, and one of their favorite models from that time. And it's not like an exact kind of, it's not a replica of the 3706, that's for sure. In fact, IWC did something a little bit closer uh three years ago when they did uh a an e-commerce exclusive version that was much more closer in terms of uh aesthetics to the to that nineteen nineties watch. But it's uh just a you know a, sweet watch. It's limited though. It's uh a hundred and twenty five pieces, so uh there won't be a ton of them, but it's the kind of watch that when you see it you're like ah um or at least I was like ah that you know that that would be great t to see in the in the mainline collection of IWC. I mean, they have a lot of great pilots watches already, but this is kind of vaulted to the to the front of uh uh you know of my favorites uh in the pilot's wat
James Stacy ch. Yeah, when I came across it on on Instagram, I was kind of like, isn't this watch already in IWC's current collection? And of course it isn't. That that's not my point. My point is rather it feels perfect. Yeah. Like they made it's called the C dot O three and so the the O one with it was an L Primero and the O two was a a a Moser pioneer. Right. Moser, yeah. And uh and so we have this one, it's got like a I really like the case back treatment is an open case back with like a black rotor, which looks really sharp and really matches the like the Stark legibility of the front of the watch. Obviously, a 41 millimeter pilot's chronograph is going to suit a lot of people. It's uh $7,150 on a strap, uh, uh $1,500 more if you want a bracelet. Both of those seem pretty reasonable given where IWC is right now and you're getting an in-house movement, which is um the six nine three eight five. So that's the 46 hour power reserve. Yeah, I th I think this is a solid thing. I I think that in many ways IWC has been moving back towards this design over the last few years with the the rebirth of the Spitfire stuff and uh and and the newer pilot stuff and the return to some of the mark aesthetics, but you still get kind of a pointy hour hand on this one, which I think is really lovely versus the kind of uh squared off option that also exists in their history. Jack, have you ever owned one of these in in the past? We were talking about collections uh a few mom
Jack Forster ents ago. You know, I've never owned an IWC pilot's chronograph, but this watch definitely reminds me of you know, I look at it and this is what I think of when I think of IWC from you know back in the nineteen nineties, early two thousands, I think of, you know, pretty austere, pretty stripped down, very Very function forward, no extraneous frills, wristwatches. And I th I've always thought of IWC as kind of a monochromatic brand in a good way, you know. I mean to me it's a it's a it's a brand in black and white. And you know, I mean I shoot black and white film. I love black and white photography. It's got it's got kind of the same feel to it. You know, I think that you can I I think we often underestimate just how much bang for the buck you can get out of a monochromatic palette. And um I I mean I I love it. I love it. I love the fact
James Stacy that it's kind of everything you need and nothing that you don't yeah and I mean the nice thing is is being from the the lineage of of the IWC pilots watch, these are watches that almost in my mind define the sort of like strap monster moniker that that gets thrown around for a lot of watches. In that this is a sporty watch that on the bracelet looks one way on this sort of uh Keblar fabric strap looks a lot different. And if you went the kind of big pilot route and put it on a studded leather or even an alligator, it's gonna dress it up a little bit. Like you know, not not fully dressy, but maybe like you go to a party in in the LA or something like that where where it's a kind of a mixed vibe. Uh I like uh I th I think this is a a good one. Where where do you land on this, Nora? You like these
Nora Taylor ? Yeah, this is not very much not my ministry, but I think it is well executed and I do like the mono
John Buse chromatic black and white. I also just wanted I I like the um the German Day Wheel too. That's that was like a nice touch, you know. I mean it's e that's something that you don't see too much. Um it was really just uh I think these guys wanting to make like their perfect kind of like the you know, their uh platonic ideal of an IWC watch and so, you know, congrats to them.
James Stacy It's a c they did really well. Yeah, I I think they've done a good job with everything that I've seen. Um, they do these low production 'cause it I think you have to be part of the group to get access to uh to be able to buy the watch. So it's it's a sort of closed loop where they're they're just serving a small niche. And so they're they kind of have this flexibility to make these little changes that might not work for a a more general audience. And I think the result of that is is it like an interesting characterful watch. And it's in I think what's kind of also remarkable is that you can see that character in a watch that's pretty stoic in its layout and its coloring and all of that. But you still like it it does kind of feel special and cool and and yeah I I would agree John I think they did a nice job with it for sure. You know what this reminds me
Jack Forster of? That when I was a kid I could say the days of the week in German and I've forgotten them. Oh no. I didn't know you forgot things John. Well you know, there's only so much room up there. Even the even the biggest and dustiest attic starts to fill up after a while. You can only have so many Emily Dickinson quotes
James Stacy in one place. Yeah, so on that lofty point, I think we'll probably close out the show, you know, uh put a bow on it with a lovely IWC. Nora, Jack, John, it was a a treat to have the three of you on. Thanks so much. Thank you, James. Thank you, James. Always a pleasure. We'll be back in a week's time. If you have any feedback, uh leave it in the comments below. And if you're liking the show, please tell a friend. Chat to you soon.