Most Of You Are Thinking About Watch Sizing All Wrong (With Mark Cho)¶
Published on Mon, 14 Jun 2021 10:00:00 +0000
The style arbiter did a survey about watch and wrist sizes, and the results will surprise you.
Synopsis¶
In this episode of Hodinkee Radio, host Stephen Pulvirent welcomes back Mark Cho, founder of menswear destinations The Armoury and Drake's, to discuss a fascinating survey Cho conducted on watch and wrist sizes. Between 2018 and 2021, Cho collected data from 1,857 respondents, uncovering a striking psychological phenomenon: 49% of people believe they have small wrists, despite the actual measurements following a normal distribution curve with an average of 6.8 inches. Cho theorizes this misperception stems from people comparing their wrists to the oversized watches dominating today's market—when shoppers repeatedly try on watches that feel too large, they begin to believe their wrists are the problem rather than the watches.
The survey revealed that preferred watch sizes correlate with wrist size perception, with the average ideal primary watch diameter being 38.15mm and secondary at 39.53mm. Notably, 20% of respondents chose 36mm as their ideal size. Cho advocates for watch brands to offer multiple sizes, similar to how clothing is sized, noting that major brands like Omega and Patek Philippe have surprisingly few options at 36mm, while Rolex stands out for maintaining diverse size offerings. The conversation touches on gender dynamics in watch sizing, with Cho noting the need for true unisex watches rather than overly feminized "ladies' watches." The discussion also explores Cho's personal collecting philosophy, which has evolved from seeking iconic sets to collecting emotionally, emphasizing authenticity in how watches complement personal style. He advocates for new collectors to experience foundational pieces like a 36mm Rolex or Patek 96 to understand their true preferences, particularly noting the value available in smaller vintage watches.
Links¶
Transcript¶
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| Mark Cho | People look at the marketplace of watches, they see what's available, and when they go out to the watch shop and they try a watch on, they are actually thinking, oh man, this watch is a little too big for me. And you do that enough, and you're gonna think your wrist is small |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . Hey everybody, I'm your host Stephen Polbrant and this is Hodinky Radio. This week we're bringing back an old-time guest and a longtime friend of mine, Mr. Mark Cho of Men'swear Mecca the Armory and London's Haberdasher Drake's. The reason for bringing Mark on the show now is because he actually did a really fascinating talk a little while ago at the Horological Society of New York, and I wanted to recap that conversation with him. It's all about wrist size and watch size and how we think about the way we wear watches. It's a really fascinating conversation that has as much to do with psychology as it does with horology. But while we had Mark, uh we also talk about personal style, about trends and watches, and a whole bunch of other things. Mark's a big watch nerd, I'm a big watch nerd. We both like geeking out. Uh, and this is one I think you're really gonna enjoy. So without further ado, let's do this. Hey Mark, how's it going? Very well, thank you. How are you doing, Steven? I'm doing good, thanks. It's uh it's good to see you. I haven't seen you in a long time. Yeah, it has been. It's been a very long time. Year and a half, maybe? Yeah. I guess so, because it would have been right before quarantine started. So yeah, it's uh that feels like forever ago. Yeah. It's a shame, but hopefully we'll be together again soon. Yeah, I'm hoping, man. I'm I'm hoping. But I'm glad despite you being in Hong Kong, me being in LA, I'm glad we could finally get you on the show and and I think we've got a pretty interesting conversation to have here. You know, you and I were chatting a couple of weeks ago, because you gave this lecture at the uh HSMY, the horological society in New York, as kind of like a virtual lecture, about this survey you did, I guess what, a couple of years ago now, about wrist sizes. Yeah. I ran it twenty eighteen till March twenty twenty one. Okay. I remember when you first kicked this off and I was like, this is this is a really smart idea. Can you can you just tell people like what the like wrist survey, I'm putting that in in quotes, what the wrist survey is. Okay. So we called it the |
| Mark Cho | ideal watch size survey. Okay. And you know, the genesis of this was basically I deal with a lot of customers in my stores and when we're just having casual chats, talking about watches is always a fun and easy thing to talk about. And in the vast majority of these conversations, customers were saying to me, I have very small wrists. And it was just happening with such alarming regularity that I was like, okay, there must be something anomalous going on here. Because not everybody can have small wrists, you know, and I don't have conversations about say like chest size or arm size or anything like that, like with customers that pan out in the same way. So I wanted to dig into it and just see exactly what was |
| Stephen Pulvirent | going on. Yeah. And so you you kinda like took to the streets of uh of the internet, right? Like kind of going on Instagram and you know, your Instagram, Instagrams of friends, other people in the watch world, you know, obviously you had the the armory to draw from. And you just kinda went out there and like did this on your own, right? Like you didn't do this through any official body or anything like that, right |
| Mark Cho | ? Yeah, I did it on my own kind of as an academic exercise. You know, as a merchant, I'm always interested in consumer behavior. So it was fun and enjoyable and interesting work for me. And luckily it seems to have caught the attention of some people. So it is great to be able to kind of just share the data a little |
| Stephen Pulvirent | bit more. Yeah. And you you got a pretty good amount of data too, right? Like you got like almost what 2,000 respondents? Yeah, I |
| Mark Cho | got a thousand eight hundred and fifty-seven respondents. That's that's no joke. Yeah, and uh you know it was the first time I've ever done a survey like this. So I'd love to actually make a version two of this and potentially even make it into an annual thing just to see I mean 1800, it's a good number, like you can definitely do some meaty analysis with it, but obviously it's not necessarily representative of the whole watch universe too. And so I would love to know if there's more things hiding that I don't know about. In fact, one of the things that I really struggled to get data on was preferences for ladies. Like only out of that thousand eight hundred and something, there were only 11 women in in that figure. And I was like, oh wow. I g |
| Stephen Pulvirent | otta I gotta try and get some more female data, you know. Yeah. Interesting. So what what did you learn? Like if you had to report out the findings, I mean people should first of all, we'll link it up in the show notes. People should go join the HSNY and and watch the lecture. Uh if they want the the full version. But if if you had to kind of sum up like the the handful of findings that you think are are the most important takeaways, what would you say those are? |
| Mark Cho | Okay. So uh firstly, the survey starts off with the question, do you consider your wrist small, average, or large? And I think for me, this is actually the most important question to be asking and for all the analysis to revolve around this. In fact, as a listener, like I would love for you to just write down or take a note for yourself, do you consider yourself small, average and large? And then also what do you think the average risk size globally is. And I'll come back to why that's important in a second, right? So, summary results: 49% of people think they have small wrists, which is like a little bit of an astonishing number to me. Yeah. 49% of people think they have small wrists, 43% of people think they have average wrists, and only 8% of people think they have large wrists. So you know like this should be a normal distribution. You know, you should have a little bit of small, a lot of average, and a little bit of large, but that's clearly not the case. Right. And then in terms of risk size, uh, I actually asked people to measure their wrist size as well. And that was a normal distribution. So there's like a very defined bell curve, and that absolutely does not match up well with the risk size perception question. And that's what kind of makes this whole uh analysis so interesting. Um, so forty-nine percent of people think they have small wrists. The average wrist size of the survey is 6.8 inches. And then we get into questions about what is the ideal watch size, which is obviously something that you know if you follow watch forums, if you follow comment threads, like it's a battle that continues to be fought every day, right? Yeah. Like everyone assumes that they're right on this number. And you know what? I actually almost don't want to give the numbers out for this particular question because in many ways they're sort of irrelevant. One of the important conclusions I came to is that preference for risk size really does change depending on either your perception of your wrist or your wrist size physically. So, you know, if you think you have a small wrist, you prefer a smaller watch. If you think you have a larger wrist, you prefer a larger watch. That may sound like a really obvious conclusion, but if that's the case, then like why aren't watches being released in more sizes? Like as a clothing person myself, right? Like I don't stock one size of jacket for my entire population of customers. You know, I have multiple sizes for multiple different types of people. And uh I think that there's there's an opportunity really to be doing that with watches as well, right? To put people out of their misery. You knew where I was going with this. Yeah, yeah. People are gonna get mad. Um through the survey, uh I asked for both a primary and a secondary watch diameter. So primary watch being like your daily wear and secondary watch being like let's say your weekend wear. I mean obviously the world has changed a lot since when I first put this survey together. So it's sort of like people used to wear a dress watch to the office and a sport watch on the weekend, but now you can basically wear a sport watch every day of the week and your dress watch might only come out for like a fancy dinner. But anyway, primary watch diameter 38.15 millimeters was the average. Right. Secondary watch diameter, 39.53 millimeters was the average. And if you watch the video on the horological society, uh you will actually see that there's also a very significant slug of people, about 20% of respondents actually chose 36 millimeters. So the most popular choices for primary wash diameter were 24% at 38 millimeters, followed by 20% at 36 millimeters, followed by seventeen percent at forty millimeters. Okay. So there is definitely like a a clear preference for 38 millimeters, but I think that you have to take it with a pinch of salt because there's a lot of people sitting at 36, um kind, of on their own island. And then plus, you know, obviously the comment that I made about just as your risk gets larger or as you imagine your risk being larger, so does |
| Stephen Pulvirent | your preference change as well. Yeah. It's interesting too, because I mean we've definitely seen a trend in in modern contemporary watch brands sizing down watches or offering smaller sizes of watches when, you know, even two, three years ago, it would have been hard to find a a modern men's sport watch under forty-one, forty-two millimeters. And that's luckily no longer the case. And and this sizing idea, I think, is something really interesting, right? Like, you know, if we compare it to clothing, it's a little bit different, I think, it just in terms of like, you know, I guess maybe the making and the components, like a 34 millimeter watch in theory, should have a different movement than a, you know, 42 millimeter watch. You know, you can't just like cut from the same bolt in that way. But I wonder like what you think about that. Like what as somebody who's you know deeply in the clothing world as well as you know a series watch enthusiasts, like how do you think about the idea of offering quote unquote like sized goods for watches versus clothing |
| Mark Cho | ? So I'm definitely in favor of sized goods for watches, just like we do in clothing. But obviously the technical challenges are very different, right? Like it's going to be much more expensive to have two different movements with two different sets of parts for just to have two different case sizes where the movement properly fills the case. And I guess like you remember it wasn't that long ago where manufacturers were experimenting with upsizing their cases, but having movements that didn't quite fit in the case. And you know, for a watch, like that has even more knock-on effect of putting the elements on the dial in the wrong place too. You've got subdials that are way too close to the center, you've got like date windows that are kind of like in the middle of nowhere. So I think that the modern movements that manufacturers are making for the larger cases, that is the right thing to do. Absolutely. And I can sympathize with why they don't necessarily want to make a smaller version of the same watch because how do you do that? You can't do it unless you were like completely from scratch to make a whole new movement. But I would like to advocate for small watch sizes, anyways, because just judging from like the number of people who, for instance, wants 36 million watches, the number of people who considers themselves with having smaller wrist sizes, there is a market. So there's probably still money on the table. The commercial calculus, I unfortunately don't have enough insight on, but I think that there is probably some scenario that could work for everybody |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . Yeah. I mean to me, I think like the real canary in the coal mine there, as as a as a thirty-six millimeter watch enthusiast, I mean most of the watches I wear are you, know, 35, 36, 37, maybe. But I think the real canary in the coal mine in terms of the economics of it is is Rolex, right? Like Rolex who didn't downsize the Explorer 2, who have been upsizing other watches. I mean, the GMT's gotten bulkier in its last iteration. The Submariner went up to 41 millimeters, like the 39mm Oyster Perpetual is gone, you know? So they're they're not doing this kind of matter-of-fact, but they did give us the 36 millimeter explorer. And that was a thing they didn't have to do, but they must think there's a market for it. And they're releasing those beautiful colored oyster perpetuals and date justs at 36 millimeters. Like those are compelling 36 millimeter kind of unisex offerings. And I think if if Rolex is doing it, it's not to make you know enthusiasts like you and me, happy. It's because they think there are a lot of people who genuinely want those products. |
| Mark Cho | I totally agree. I mean, you know, it is really shocking. Like I did a little digging into the catalogs of Omega, Patek, and Rolex, which are basically the top three brands for survey respondents. Yeah. And there are almost no 36mm choices in there. The only brand that has 36mm choices in any sort of significant number is Rolex. Omega have basically nothing at thirty six. Interesting. Attack has |
| Stephen Pulvirent | basically nothing at thirty six. Because I guess yeah, I guess all the Calatrafas are bigger than that now. That's that's really fascinating. I wouldn't have thought of that. And same with Omega, now that I try to think of something, I can't think of a maybe other than like a constellation maybe, but other than that, there's there's really nothing. I mean it' |
| Mark Cho | s kind of shocking that Patek, which I've always thought of as like a fine dress watchmaker. Obviously they do a lot of other beautiful things, but like I've always thought fine dress watchmaking was like one of their pillars. And they don't have a 36 in the modern catal |
| Stephen Pulvirent | og. That's so strange. So so strange. I mean, I think, you know, I I I think I've told this story before on the show at at some point, but I remember a couple of years ago at at Basel World having a conversation with a retailer, and they were like, Oh, what have you seen that you like? What have you seen that you didn't and I was like, Oh, you know, it's these things are good, those things aren't, whatever. But like it just seems like everyone's kind of making the same watch. Like everyone's just making like, you know, a 41 or 42 millimeter watch with a date and a bezel and whatever. And they were like, yeah, duh. Like that's all people buy. And I was like, oh, interesting. And I I wonder if the brand starting to release downsized watches is the chicken or the egg in this case, right? Like are consumers going into jewelers and asking for these watches or are the brands kind of in the the like taste makers attempting to shift the market? I'm not sure which kind of is the cause in which is the effect, or if they're both both, but uh I think over the next year or two we'll we'll probably have a clearer picture of that. I |
| Mark Cho | hope so. I mean, I almost never buy modern watches because they simply don't exist in my size preference. Yeah. You know, like if you released watches in my size preference, I would get off the fence and buy one. And this is why I was glad I was able to do this survey rather than a brand doing the survey. Brands are great at talking to existing brand customers, but they're not great at talking to or even thinking of people outside of that group of people. Whereas for me, I'm kind of agnostic. Like I can just speak to anybody. And fortunately, like because of what I do, I have a little bit more insight into the habits of luxury goods consumers. Interest |
| Stephen Pulvirent | ing. All right. To bring things back around, I mean the the thing you said kind of kicked this whole thing off, right? And we we haven't gotten to this yet, is the idea that forty-nine percent of people think their wrist is too small. That like statistically doesn't really make a lot of sense, right? So I wonder if do you know why? Like did you figure out through the results like what the effect is that's causing people to think this |
| Mark Cho | ? Yeah, I I thought about it a lot, and the conclusion that I came to is that people look at the marketplace of watches, they see what's available, and when they go out to the watch shop and they try a watch on, they are actually thinking, oh man, this watch is a little too big for me. And And you do that enough, and you're gonna think your wrist is sm |
| Stephen Pulvirent | all. Oh. That's an interesting idea. I I hadn't thought about it coming from the products that are currently available, basically, like measuring yourself against like the general watches that are out there. But that, I mean, that tracks, that makes a lot of sense. I I'd say like to anyone listening, you know, obviously the plural of anecdote is not data, but tell us your anecdotes. Like if you've had these kinds of experiences or this has affected how you think about watches, like hit us up in the comments. We'd we'd love to hear from you and kind of keep the conversation going. I mean Mark, I know you you mentioned to me and you had sent me when we first started talking about this a list of questions that people had wanted to ask during the HSNY talk and that there were a whole bunch you you know thought were fascinating but didn't have a chance to answer during the actual Q |
| Mark Cho | question. It is borderline unanswerable. It actually reminds me of another question that came up, which was legibility. So for instance, like sometimes when I talk to brands and I'm like, why did the watch get so big? One of their reasons is, oh well, for improved legibility. Yeah. And, you know, as things get more complicated, obviously that improved legibility can be very helpful too. Like I love my Patek 3940 perpetual calendar, but it can be a little hard to read sometimes. Like I have to, you know, spend a couple spend more than a couple seconds trying to figure out what day it is on that thing. Right. So I can I can sympathize. You know, like legibility, I think, is an important aspect and it it it interacts with watch case size. I also think that, you know, in terms of how you might want to create an aesthetic, right? Like a simple two or three hander on a large dial can be very striking and very beautiful too, right? I mean you think of in olden times, uh the Patek five seventy is a great example of that, right? The Patek five seventy is basically like a at the time an oversized three hand watch. I don't see Portuguese, same idea. Right. Like there's a there's also something very |
| Stephen Pulvirent | aesthetically striking about those designs. Yeah, I I agree. And yeah, I I would say, you know, my own, I'll I'll editorialize a little bit here. You know, my own thought is, you know, it comes down more to execution than any hard and fast rule. You know, I think I'm I'm with you on that. Like you can have a really striking large three-hand watch and a really legible 36 millimeter complication, either a chronograph or a a calendar. And uh it really just comes down to to design. Earlier you you brought up that not too many women answered this survey. And and I wonder, you know, obviously there's some element of a self-selecting audience here in that, you know, the channels you were advertising the survey on, I would imagine you have more male followers being the male clothing business than than female followers. But I wonder how much you think gender dynamics come into watch brands either acceptance or reluctance to make kind of a mixed sized offering? You know, are watch brands assuming that, you know, they can make larger watches because their clients are all men? Is it the brands who know that they have female customers who are making mixed sizes? Are the two things related in a different way? What what do you think the gender dynamic is here in terms of the the actual watches themselves? Man, you know, I think |
| Mark Cho | that is a fascinating question. So clearly right now there's a trend for women wanting to wear uh larger watches. You know, just like there's the boyfriend jacket, there's also the boyfriend watch now. Right. And the boyfriend watch, you know, sometimes it takes the form of like Rolex Daytonas in 40 millimeters. And then there's women who now even think of the thirty-six millimeter size as like the ladies size. But then there's also women who they want that boyfriend aesthetic. They don't want the girliness. Do you know what I mean? Like they don't want yeah the diamonds on it. They don't want the extra narrow lugs on it. They want the watch to look like a man's watch. So I guess there's actually kind of two categories, right? There's the very feminine, very petite ladies' watch, and then there's this kind of mid-size watch that really is actually unisex. And I think that should get more of a push by the manufacturers. Like for instance, JLC just released a 36mm master moon phase, which is lovely, and they're advertising as a women's watch. Interesting. But it's like I would buy that any day of the week over the stand |
| Stephen Pulvirent | ard moon phase. Yeah, I think there's the adage of, you know, shrink it and pink it, right? And I do think watch brands are often guilty of that of assuming that, you know, all women want, you know, something dainty and covered in stones and with flower motifs and pink straps and whatever. And I'm sure there's a clientele for that. And there's nothing wrong with liking those products. I just don't think that they sort of like fully, fully encompass the full range of tastes out there. |
| Mark Cho | I mean what I would love to know is like whether brands actually have female designers designing these ladies' watches. Because sometimes I see the work and I'm like, oh did did a guy just assume that this is what a lady wants and put it together this way? Yeah |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . Like it it almost seems too obvious, you know? I honestly would not be surprised if that were were the case, you know? I mean we're talking about an industry that's not known for being like the most progressive industry on the planet. Oh, for sure. I mean, listen, you and me as two guys talking about this question is slightly absurd too. I mean, that's fair. Maybe we'll leave it there so we don't totally step in it. But um are there any watches out there? You know, a bunch of people asked about watches with that do have sizing. And the ones that I can think of are, you know, FP Jorn for a long time offered, you know, most of the base models in two sizes. Wchesat like the Royal Oak come in a pretty good size range. Hublo actually does it with a ton of their stuff, like the classic fusions come in like six sizes for each model. Any others that you can think of that do that really well? Uh Cartier does a nice job. Oh ye |
| Mark Cho | ah. That's a good point. Because I guess because Cartiers are so sculptural and so jewelry like, right? Given especially given their background, like the the aesthetic definitely changes as you up or downsize that watch. I think that's pretty cool. Yeah. Reversos do come in a ton of sizes as well. And personally, actually, I'm a huge fan of the really small reversos. I think there's something just really elegant about small size reversos. And I think that they're kind of missing a trick by not pitching those smaller reversos as like a dress watch. Like how how small are we talking with real small? So my favorite size is the classic medium, and that is uh I think that's like twenty-six millimeters by forty millimeters or something like that. |
| Stephen Pulvirent | Okay. It's like the second smallest size they do, basically. Okay. Those are beautiful watches. And I I agree with you. I think especially and I I wonder, you know, this is probably related, right? Like that watch and like a lot of what Cartier does is is very like our deco-y. And I think that visual language works really well at a smaller size. Like it still feels kind of like graphic and bold and modern. It doesn't feel, you know, it doesn't feel too fuddy duddy. Like it doesn't feel like you're purposefully wearing a like costume level small watch. |
| Mark Cho | Actually I'd say this will get me probably a lot of flack, but we love that. You love controversy over at OTK. Um I love it, man. Get the commenter screaming. I love it. I don't think I have the constitution for that. So I'll try to put this as diplomatically as possible. But I have a really good collector friend, Chinese gentleman, and he was like, You know, I love the longas, but after a certain size, like it's just too much. And I totally agree with him, actually. Like, I just traded out a Longa One for a little Longa One. Really? And I've never been happier. The Little Longa One is awesome. It's so good. It's so so good. I traded out a Longa One twenty fifth anniversary for it. It was like a rare, more valuable piece. But I was like, you know what, I just don't wear it. It's it's not a size that works for me. And |
| Stephen Pulvirent | there's something about the longa 'cause that watch the normal longa one is thirty eight and a half millimeters, right? And the little longa one is thirty-six. Yes, that's right. Yeah, I mean thirty six is a great size. I like there you go |
| Mark Cho | , right? Thirty six is is a great size for a lot of different people. I think it deserves more attention. But you know, like the Longa design language, it has this kind of really beautiful weight to it, right? It's just substantial. Yeah. And you know, if there were like watches that I dream could be downsized for me, like the Longa Terra Luna or the Longa Jumping Seconds. Those are so great. And I I just wish they were a little bit smaller. Or not even a little bit smaller. I wish they were a lot smaller. Because I think that des |
| Stephen Pulvirent | ign language just works so well at a small size as well. I feel like when you suggested a thirty-six millimeter Terra Luna, I feel like somewhere in New York City, Jack Forrester just like sat up in bed, you know, straight up in the middle of the night and was like something, something is happening. Sorry. Sorry, Jack, if you're if you're listening, if uh Mark and I woke you up uh while while we were recording this. But uh yeah, that sounds perfect. Uh Langa, if you are listening to this, please make that watch. Uh I will sell a kidney and figure it out. Would love that watch. Me too. Yeah. Jeez. Me too. You've stole two already. Well done. I I want to make sure we we get a chance, you know, kind of moving away from the the watch size survey a little bit. I want to talk about your watch collecting and and how it kind of relates to your, you know, interest in in business in in menswear. Your personal collection is is really eclectic. I mean, you and I have known each other for for years and I've seen kind of stuff enter and exit the collection over the years, but I think you actually sum it up really well in the HSMY presentation when you say that the size range of your collection goes from 31 millimeter paddock 96 up to a 42 millimeter IWC Portuguese, which is a pretty serious range. So I wonder if you could describe kind of your interest in collecting. Like how would you describe your collection and your collecting |
| Mark Cho | interest? You know, these days more than ever, I just collect emotionally. Like I see something and if it's kinda caught my interest, if I can afford to buy it, I'll I'll buy it. And if it doesn't work out, I'll let it go. I really believe that you have to own a watch before you can truly judge it. I mean it's fun to look at the pictures and participate in comments, but it's really important to just own it for a little while before you really judge it. I used to be more enthusiastic about like, you know, collecting icons or collecting sets, but I've I I just kind of grew out of it. You know, there was there was very little joy actually in for instance in collecting sets of things. I was like, what am I doing? I don't I don't wear half this stuff. And you know, while I do collect a broad range of sizes, like for instance, when I collect especially larger sizes, it's because there's something about the design or the movement that I'm just very um that I just find very admirable. And so I'd like to own it. In fact, I'll give you an interesting example. I actually own a Chanel Monsieur. Oh yeah. I love the Chanel Monsieur. I think it's so great so well done. Fantastically well done. Which uh which version of it do you have? I have the smallest one as you might expect. I have their beige gold |
| Stephen Pulvirent | version. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ugh, that's a great watch. Yeah. I didn't know you own that. That is a cool, kind of like out of left field, fun watch. |
| Mark Cho | Oh, totally. But like it's so well thought through, you know, from the font to the way they design the crown. You know, there's actually a small recess in the edge of the case between the lugs for the strap to sit under as well. The only other time I've seen that done is on Cartier's Ronde. Plus the movement on that watch is just it's stunning. It's really a beautifully done movement. If no one if you they're so rare, right? You never really see people wear them around. Um but if you ever come across one and you can have a chat with the owner, like talk to him because he he probably has some sort of kind of more more uh unusual eye for these things. Yeah, that's a that's a watch that I would stop somebody on the sidewalk to talk to. At the end of the day though, I I've realized that I might experiment with larger sizes like 39, 40, 42, but there's just certain sizes that work for me. And I come back to them far more often than the other sizes. So for me personally, like my 96, I wear that a lot. Um stuff that I have in like 36, 37 millimeters, I wear a lot. And then from 38, it just drops down significantly. You know, and that's me personally, right? Like I I think that there's a sweet spot for everybody. And uh it you kind of really have to twist my arm a little bit to be collecting outside of that sweet spot |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . Yeah, I've I've done the buy a watch that's slightly too big thing a couple times. And I'm always really excited about it when I first get the watch. And I'm like, oh, I can this opens up all new doors and I can like enjoy a whole new type of watch. And then when with thenin like six weeks, I'm like, yeah, I don't, I just don't wear this basically every time. It never it never lasts. |
| Mark Cho | I think that's the biggest truth in collecting and ownership, right? It's like, do you wear this a lot or not? Because if you don't wear this a lot, clearly like you can |
| Stephen Pulvirent | 't be that into it. I wonder, you know, I want to make sure we get a chance to talk about kind of like watches and and personal style too. Like our our conversation so far has been, you know, relatively scientific, shall we say, or or kind of like objective about watches. And and I'm curious how you think about as somebody, you know, deeply interested in and invested in menswear, about watches as a part of style. Like for you, how how do watches fit into a person's style and point of view |
| Mark Cho | . I don't wear any jewelry. I just wear a watch. Like I don't wear rings. I don't wear necklaces. So the watch in terms of my appearance is like a really significant part of my appearance. And when it comes to appearance, like I always want my appearance to be authentic to me and communicating who I am. Right. I know this sounds like a little kind of pie in the sky, but I I really do believe it. Like you look your best when your clothes are really telling your story, right? Someone should be able to look at what you're wearing, Stephen, and be like, that's the most Steven possible outfit I could imagine. I think that that's when you've kind of hit the apex of your personal style. Like I actually had a question come in over the lecture. Larger watches connote a sportsman athlete feeling. Don't men want to be perceived as rugged and vigorous, especially today. And I don't think that's true, not necessarily because people don't want to be perceived as rugged and vigorous, but more because people don't want to pretend to be rugged and vigorous. Right. Like you could put a royal oak offshore on me and you would just know, like, man, what is he doing? He's just pretending. Yeah. Right. Like I think people are actually quite sensitive to inauthenticity. Yeah. And so that is why like it's important to kind of find the |
| Stephen Pulvirent | right watch that suits you as a person. Yeah. And and one of the things that I've always, you know, liked about the armory is that you take the sort of like craft and attention to detail and appreciation for for little things from the world of of classic menswear and sort of traditional menswear, but you're making clothes that are very wearable and feel contemporary. Like people don't come out of your shops looking, you know, like they're dressed up for a costume party. They look like well-dressed modern individuals. Uh and and I wonder if you think that there are watch brands that kind of do that well today. I mean, we see a lot of like throwback stuff and faux vintage stuff, and I wonder who you think is doing a good job maybe taking elements of the past while not producing kind of like you know homage watches or or throwbacks. |
| Mark Cho | I don't know to be honest. I guess because it's sort of like I'll go to VC because I'm looking for a particular look, right? Or I'll go to Grand Sago because I'm looking for a particular look. I don't rely on VC or Rolex or Omega to produce all the watches that I'll ever need. Because there's just like other aspects to my style that you know other houses might do better for me, like communicate what I need them to communicate better for me. But I guess in terms of like a modern catalog that kind of has a good understanding of where it came from, but a good understanding of where it could be going, I have to say now Yahida. Like now Yah is really amazing in terms of treading that line of like vintage inspired without being costume. Like you look at, for instance, the case size, the case size is just slightly fuller, thicker, a little bit more modern. You can see a lot of like really kind of old school aesthetics in it. Um so for instance like the engraved dials or even just like the proportion and the design layout of the dial elements. Like it's all very rooted in classicism. So I really like that. But then like the production techniques are very modern as well. You know, like high precision CNC, using 904 steel, like all these are very new things. So I I think that they've done a great job in blending the old and the new. In fact, if you were actually to talk about who is really like on uh on a cutting edge, I actually think Ming is, right? I think Ming watches is more than anybody experimenting with like unusual techniques in un and even unusual shapes in terms of like the case, in terms of how the dials are made, in terms of how the markings are laid out. There's nobody doing anything like it, which I really appreciate. |
| Stephen Pulvirent | Yeah, I I completely agree. Now Yoyah Hita and uh Ming are an interesting juxtaposition here. Like they're two brands that have said, like, I'm gonna make a very different watch from everything else that's being made, but they're doing it in two very different ways, both trying to create something new and fresh and contemporary, but leaning kind of on on opposite instincts, which I think is is really fascinating. Yeah. For folks looking to kind of like maybe think a little deeper about how they pair watches and clothing, you know, as people build their collections and and wanna kind of, you know, have things to go with different things, be able to make different combinations. Do you have any sort of like tips or guidance you would wanna offer people as they think about kind of like curating their watch collection along with their wardrobe? Mm-hmm.'s an |
| Mark Cho | interesting one. Okay. Like when we advise new customers on building a wardrobe, so they're kind of starting from almost zero and they're looking for those foundational pieces. We'll always be like, okay, well, there's a certain denim that I think you should have in your wardrobe. There's certain type of white button-down shirt you should have in wardrobe, certain types of polos, certain types of jackets, certain types of chinos, certain types of trousers, right? And then you kind of gather up that whole set over a period of time and you start wearing it. And through the frequent use of those pieces, you start to understand a little bit better what is important to you, what is not important to you, and where your style should be going. And I think you can apply those same ideas to watches too, right? Like so I think everyone should own at some point in their life a 36mm Rolex. I think that that's just like a great thing to even if you decide you don't like it, at least you understand it. Right. I also think the same thing about a Patek ninety six. I think a tech ninety six is one of those things that like you've known it for a little while and just like get a sense of what it's like to have such a small watch. Yeah. Because definitely on some people it's probably too small. But it's still worth like giving it a whirl. Then you'll be like, okay, well now I know kind of roughly what is important to me and what isn't important to me and I can start developing my taste and and building my own collection and my own vision of like what I think watches need to be for me. In fact, like if you are a new collector, certainly like there's so many great deals in vintage, especially in the smaller sizes, especially when they're in yellow gold. Like those are great, great pieces of watchmaking |
| Stephen Pulvirent | that deserve to have more attention. No, I totally agree. I think that's solid advice. I think, you know, if the thing people take away is like, you know, be more open minded and do your homework. I think that's a pretty good foundation to lay. Dude, this was this was so much fun. I really appreciate you taking the time. You know, I've I remember when you first launched the survey and so it's really fascinating to now hear the results and kind of like some of the conclusions you think you can draw from it. And um yeah, I'm fascinated to see where it goes from here. So we'll have links to the HSMY lecture and and other kind of supporting materials on the site and in the show notes. So people who are curious can go check those out. Yeah, |
| Mark Cho | the HSNY lecture should be available to the public um by the time this podcast comes out. Because it's members only for just the first two months. But I believe it should be available for public consumption imminently. Perfect. And then I am hoping to make a new version of this survey. I have just been so busy at work. So I haven't really been able to like work on it very much recently, but I would like to try and have a new version of the survey coming out later this year. And uh hopefully Steven, you guys can help me spread the word again. I would appreciate |
| Stephen Pulvirent | it. Happy to help however we can, my friend. Okay. Thanks, Steven. I appreciate it. Awesome. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it, Mark. Take care. My pleasure. Talk to you again soon |