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The Controversial Case Of Casebacks, Open & Closed

Published on Mon, 3 May 2021 10:00:00 +0000

To show the movement or not to show the movement, that is the question.

Synopsis

In this episode of Hodinkee Radio, host Stephen Pulvirent is joined by Danny Milton and James Stacey for an in-depth discussion about watch casebacks. The conversation was sparked by recent controversy around Tudor's new open-caseback divers released at Watches and Wonders, which prompted the team to explore the broader topic of caseback design, history, and philosophy.

Stephen provides historical context, explaining that transparent casebacks date back over a century to pocket watches used by salesmen, but didn't become common in wristwatches until the 1980s. Gerard Rudiger Lang of Chrono Swiss claims to have invented the transparent caseback for wristwatches, though this is difficult to verify. Major brands like Patek Philippe and Blancpain began adopting sapphire casebacks in the mid-1980s, with the feature becoming mainstream by the 2010s.

The hosts debate the merits of transparent versus solid casebacks, identifying what Danny describes as a "trickle-down effect" where features originally reserved for high complications became commonplace regardless of movement finishing quality. They discuss how transparent casebacks appeal differently to newcomers versus experienced collectors, with James noting they're most exciting at entry-level watches (like Seiko 5s) and at the highest end (like Lange or Patek with hand-finished movements), but less compelling in the middle market. The conversation also covers the importance of engravable solid casebacks for personalizing watches and marking significant life events, with brands like Rolex, Tudor, and Nomos praised for leaving space for custom engravings. The hosts express frustration with Grand Seiko's practice of printing logos on sapphire casebacks, which they see as combining the worst aspects of both approaches. Ultimately, when forced to choose, most lean toward solid casebacks for their current collections, though they'd prefer transparent backs if collecting only high-end pieces with beautifully finished movements.

Transcript

Speaker
Danny Milton There's a reason to put a sapphire case back on a complicated watch. If the whole point is we've put, you know, such and such complication in this watch and you'd like to show off the mechanics of that, I get it. And I've held watches like that and I appreciate looking at the movement on those watches but invariably what happens is other brands start to see that and they go oh well we have movements inside our watches we could show what those look like too and the price bracket slowly comes down to different levels and it just trickles down where the reason disappears and just the thing remains
Stephen Pulvirent Hey everybody, I'm your host Stephen Pulverant and this is Hodinky Radio. This week we're talking all things casebacks. You might remember from one of the Watches and Wonders episodes about Tudor that, there's a a bit of controversy around the new open casebacked divers. And we thought that was as good an excuse as any to really dissect the strangely complicated world that is casebacks today. We get into some of the history, where it came from, as well as who's doing the best job today, who we'd like to see change things, and what we think watch companies could do with the backs of watches to make them more appealing to everyone. I've got Danny and James to help me out and couldn't have a better pair. So without further ado, let's do this. This week's episode is presented by Bulva and the Joseph Bulova Collection. Stay tuned later in the show to learn about this new line of Swiss-made automatic watches or visit bulva.com for more.
James Stacey Hey guys, how you doing? A okay, baby, back on the show. Danny, you? I'm doing I'm doing great boys
Stephen Pulvirent . Everyone can now tell how many coffees I've had. Yeah. And it we're at that weird time where like it's morning for me and you guys kind of need lunch. So yeah, we're we're in the sweet spot, I think, for the pod zone. Hungry energy. Yeah, I I like coffee for lunch and I go to bed for dinner. So perfect. Love it. It's a living. It's the journalist diet. Well, we're we're here to talk about something that like seems kind of simple, but is actually way more complicated, which again I feel is like totally our sweet spot here, which is casebacks. When we were doing the Watches and Wonders pods kind of unexpectedly, Jack and Ben and I ended up down a a rabbit hole talking about the new tutors and the fact that they used open casebacks and what we like about it, what we don't like about it. And we thought it'd be it'd be good to just do a case back show. So we're gonna talk about like the history of casebacks, our opinions, who's doing it well, who's not doing it well, our our hot takes on what should be going on. That that sounds good to you guys? Love it. Oh, yeah. All right. So I'm gonna start. I'm gonna give you guys a little bit of history here, just so we're all kind of like operating on the same footing. I talked to Jack. Jack, as usual, super helpful, like knew all this stuff off the top of his head, makes my life way easier, saves me like hours of research just having a 10-minute conversation with Jack. But basically, open case backs can be traced back a little over a hundred years. They were first used on pocket watches on the reverse sides for salesmen. They were sort of like, you know, California dials or those like cool old Accutron models or whatever, and like the space view. So the salesmen who were selling pocket watches into retailers could show them kind of like what was inside, you know, pretty, pretty basic. Then in the 20th century, we moved to wristwatches. It's all closed backs for a long time. They could be snapbacks. They could be screwbacks. You know, screwbacks introduced a a new level of kind of like complexity to things where like you couldn't, if you were a normal person, you might not be able to just like pop it off with a knife. Could just cheese knife it. Yeah. Oh, full gold burger. Oh yeah. Yeah. So then you get screwbacks and like, you know, some of those from like, you know, Rolex and Omega and stuff, you need special tools to get them off, blah, blah, blah. Everything basically continues like pretty uninterrupted then till the 80s. So we're talking about from like the 19 teens until the 1980s. It's basically all solid case backs. It's it's snapbacks and screwbacks. That's basically it. Is your watch waterproof or is your watch not waterproof? And the only people really looking at watch movements were watchmakers. This was not like a thing for consumers. This was a thing for serious, you know, technicians or like maybe the top, top level of connoisseurs. Then we get open case backs. And this is where the story gets a little strange. Recently, John did an interview with Gerard Rudiger Lang, who founded Chrono Swiss. He claims to inv have invented the transparent case back in the early eighties. It's a little hard to verify that. I'm not sure if he invented it, but he definitely did a lot to popularize it. So I'll I'll give him credit either way. It is cool to just kind of say like me. I
James Stacey did it. Like I invented something. You can see the movement now. Enjoy. Yeah, I like his his
Stephen Pulvirent comment to John too, which was John was like, Well, w which is like this is a classic journalist move. Like, I'm a little skeptical, so how do I ask this question in a way that's not offensive? And he was like, So did you patent it? And I gotta say, Lang like gave a pretty good answer, which was like, I was too stupid to know you could patent something like that, which like fair, and also like I don't know if you could patent something like that, considering it had been done in pocket watches before. I think you'd have a slightly hard case for uh patenting something that simple. But yeah, I I think we also see concurrently some other watchmakers doing it, which is where I I start to uh get a little iffy on whether I think Lang actually invented it for wristwatches. It's kind of iffy, but we see it two big brands that started using it also in the 80s were Paddock and Blanc Pom. They were pretty ahead of the curve there. If you'll remember, you know, I I would say people should go check out the talking watches we did with Jean-Claude Beaver. He talks a lot about those early days of Blanc Pont in the in the eighties when they were making the like masterpiece watches, the complications. All of those had sapphire casebacks. So the minute repeaters, the perpetual calendars, like all of those were were transparent case backed watches. And there were six of them and they were all developed by 1989. That was his goal was to by the end of the 80s have these kind of six benchmark complications. Those had Sapphirebacks. And then Paddock introduced the 3970 in 1986. Uh, and with it, they introduced the 3971, which is the variant that has a sapphire back. So you could choose, I think there were actually three different combinations. You could get like snapback, screw back, or screw back with the optional sapphire screw back. It was kind of like it's kind of weird. But by the end of the 80s, we see that like Chrono Swiss is obviously doing this big time and Paddock is offering it on a flagship model and BlancPon is offering it on their new high complications. That gets us to basically like the start of the modern open case back. I just got to say, kudos. You did that all off the top of your head and that was incredible. Just memorized all that information. Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah. I definitely, definitely don't have anything pulled up on my computer right now. Like for sure. All right. This is the last little monologue and then we're gonna we're gonna debate this. Basically open case backs become commonplace in the 2010s. Like we're talking less than 15 years out from when open case back started really becoming mainstream. And, you know, James and I, I know have been quote unquote like in the industry for, you know, a little over a decade each year. And like when I started like really seriously, I guess in 2012, so a little under a decade. Like a lot of brands still weren't doing Sapphire case backs. Like a lot of the more traditional brands were still doing solid backs on on most of their watches. That's definitely not the case anymore, I would say. I mean, to me at this point, like the defaults for a nice mechanical watch feels like a transparent case back. How about how about for you guys? I would say so. I
Danny Milton think, you know, there's some obviously like a Rolex where you don't get it at all. But other than that, you know, I'd be hard pressed to think of a brand that really just isn't doing it at least on most of the collections that it offers at some level. Yeah, I can I can only think of
James Stacey a couple that really don't don't go that route, but it's not in the same method as Rolex where they leave it kind of blank. Yeah. There's other brands that that typically have the solid, but then they it's just covered in text. So which which I think that gives it kind of a middle zone, right? In terms of the case back world, you get a speedy, right? And there's like there's a lot of text on a speedy. Every every little facet has some some text on it or qualific
Stephen Pulvirent ation or something. So yeah. We'll we'll get into that because I I want to talk about kind of the levels of solid case backs because I think there is actually like a pretty serious hierarchy and and of transparent case backs for that matter too. But before we do that, I I want to ask what's going to sound like a really stupid question, but I think it's important we talk about it, which is like, why? Like wh,y do we need transparent casebacks? They're more expensive. They increase the thickness of a watch, which you know, for many people is a downside. They're typically not as waterproof. They're not as like easy to repair and as durable. Like there's a lot of downsides to them. So like what's the upside here? Like why are people doing this
Danny Milton ? I don't know that there's necessarily like a direct reason for it. I always find stuff in watches is a trickle-down effect. So you were mentioning, you know Beaver and the and the Blanc Pond. And there's a reason to put a sapphire case back on a complicated watch. If the whole point is we've put you know such and such complication in this watch, and you'd like to show off the mechanics of that, I get it. And I've held watches like that, and I appreciate looking at the movement on those watches. But invariably, what happens is other brands start to see that and they go, Oh, well, we have movements inside our watches, we could show what those look like too. And the price bracket slowly comes down to different levels and it just trickles down where the reason disappears and just the thing remains. And I think that's just ultimately what happened. I don't really know because it there's tons of brands that do it where the movement isn't finished in any way that's worth looking at other than just to show that it exists, that this doesn't have a battery and it does have a rotor and you can sort of watch that that happen.
James Stacey Yeah, I mean for for me, I think why why is is I I don't disagree with Danny that it's kind of it was a a feature that was in some way established by luxury or even s kind of h super luxury hot orology watches. And it kind of trickled down and and I think that the timing of where it became something that was easy to execute also aligned with all the micro brands that popped up in 2010, where they were taking the expressions of expensive watches or more expensive watches and making them a less of a commodity, something that was a little bit more accessible. And I think part of that was, you know, we had um you had you know better bezels, you had better water resistance, suddenly you had better crystals with anti-reflective coating. And and that used to be again something that you would see on a Brightling or or a watch you spent more money on. And that was started to trickle down. And I think that the way that a a display case back speaks to somebody who's just getting into watches is so vastly different than it speaks to someone who's been into watches for a little while. I think that's where we see it in in micro brands. And in my mind, you see it in Seiko fives. And let me be honest, I'm not so jaded as to say that like my first couple Seiko's had closed case backs, right? SKX 007 and a 781. And then eventually I got to a five uh an SNK and it had this display case back. And I thought, this is so charming. I can see the movement. I can see the rotor move. Yeah. There's like a fascination to it. And that fascination maybe doesn't stay with you once you grow into a wider appreciation of movement finishing and movement technology. And it's weird because, like, probably the nicest movement in a watch in my collection is with a closed case back. Yeah. I've not, I've only seen an image of it that, you know, the photographer photographed before the movement went into the
Stephen Pulvirent uh into the watch itself. Yeah. I uh James, I think you've identified something really interesting here, which for me, the the why largely comes down to it's marketing, honestly. Like at the end of the day, it's it's like a sales tactic almost. And I think it's it's kind of a reverse bell curve, right? Like I think to your point, James, it's like for somebody who's new to watches or just getting into it or doesn't know a ton, a display back is an amazing way, even with a Seiko 5 movement or an undecorated, you know, kind of workhorse Eda movement or Salita movement. It's a way to say and see, like, this is different. You know, this is not a watch with a battery. You know, you can look at it and say, Oh, I can kind of tell what this component is doing, or this component, or like you can show it to people, which I think is really important and say, like, look, this watch doesn't need a battery because like look at all these gears and springs, and like this is so cool. And then I think you're right. Like, as you become like kind of into it, like people become jaded and you dip, and it's like, oh, I don't need to see that. Like, unless it's gonna be a beautiful, like amazing, hand finished, like a longa movement or something from a crivia or whatever like yeah I don't need a display back that's silly and then you get to the high the like to that that kind of stuff where it's like you know the blanc Pow masterpiece watches, Langa, paddock, like, you know, hand AP, like beautifully decorated movements where like the movement is part of the the visible package, like it's meant to be viewed and appreciated. Yeah. For everyone, even up to like the highest connoisseurs. And then that gets exciting again. So it's like I I think actually weirdly, like I find op open case backs most appealing on watches that are like under 500 bucks and have like completely unfinished, like raw industrial movements, or like, you know, $10,000 plus watches that have hand finishing. The stuff in the middle is where like I find it maybe like least compelling, like what you guys have both said, where like at that point it's like trickle down. It feels like people doing it to do it
James Stacey . Right. I mean we're we're a few minutes in. So this is the part where I ask if I can offer up a semi-problematic and probably very frustrating car analogy. Do it. Which is which is my want. I see display case backs like spoilers, wings on the back of cars. When you get your first car, you bolt a wing on because you want that big wing look. And it's special and it's fun. And then if you get deep enough into cars, you learn that they don't really do anything unless you're going way too fast. And and maybe you don't even like the way they look. Maybe maybe the trunk looks better without a giant wing. And then if you get high enough into cars, the wings actually do something. They keep the car stuck on the road when you're at the racetrack or driving too quickly when nobody's looking, I hope. And that sort of thing. And that's kind of where I see it because there's definitely there's formats where I won't I think like if I see a really sweet EX Civic, you know, like a Civic from when I was in high school, and that's got a sick wing on it, I that's what I want. I like that. That looks awesome. And I think that's kind of like seeing an awesome or or like the same uh display case back on a on a Seiko 5. And then on the on the other side, you you get to a point where it's more like race car, and I think that's in the same spec as a Longa or a Patek where you do want to see the case back, you want to experience that movement because it it ties into the overall experience of the watch. Having a display case back on a really awesome sport watch just kind of feels like uh you've added something that I didn't need
Stephen Pulvirent . This week's episode is presented by Bolivar. There are only a handful of historic brands whose pasts powerfully connect American and Swiss watchmaking, and Bolivah is one of the greatest. Founded in New York in eighteen seventy f,ive Boulevard would go on to set up the first fully integrated watch factory in Switzerland, shaping the industry for generations to come. And, luckily, Boulevard has a new collection of watches to celebrate this distinctive heritage. The Joseph Bulva collection is an homage to the brand's visionary founder and how far the company has come in 145 years of continuous operation. The flagship pieces in the Joseph Bulova collection are a pair of chronographs that combine classic elements of Boulevard design with contemporary manufacturing techniques. The chronos are each 42mm and made of stainless steel with either a rose gold on black dial or a blue-on-silver dial. The three-registered design and slim Arabic numerals are inspired by those found on Bulva's very first chronograph from 1941. But the movement is a modern Salida SW500, which adds a day-date complication at 3 o'clock. These are watches that nod to the past without looking like they arrived here in a time machine. Each model is limited to just 350 pieces and they're priced at $2,495. Both watches are available now from Bulova Authorized retailers. To learn more about the Joseph Bulva collection, be sure to visit Bulva.com. Alright, let's get back to the show. When is a solid case back the right choice? Like I think at this point, in in a weird way, like at this point, Sapphire case back or transparent case back, summer mineral glass, whatever. But like a transparent case back, an open case back is at this point the default. But like when when do you actively want a solid case back? I have some answers,
Danny Milton but I want I want you guys to go first. I think brands have answered the question themselves sometimes. Like we spoke on a previous pod about watches that are for enthusiasts and watches that are kind of for more mass market or beginners or a general consumer that walks into a store and is just looking to buy something. And I look at what to your point about watches that are 500 or below, Hamilton offers a ton of those. You know, a ton of watches with sapphire casebacks in the khaki line. But if you go to the khaki field mechanical, which is undoubtedly an enthusiast watch, a hand winding movement, that does not have a display case back. And I think that appeals way more to us than it does to anyone else. It has more of a like a rugged field watch look. It doesn't look like a nice watch, per se, that you would go in and pick up. And I think that brands are even segmenting their own pieces and sort of answering that question and saying, well, if you're an enthusiast, you'll know there's a movement inside here. But if you're not, we have this other kind of realm here where you can take a look at it, even though it's your run of the mill at a 28-24 movement inside. Yeah. I think Launjine
Stephen Pulvirent is another brand that stands out to me, which, you know, another Swatch Group brand there that has done a really good job with their heritage pieces, not putting transparent case backs on them. And I don't know, for me, like a 1930s, 1940s style long is a super cool thing and it's way cooler with a solid case back. I don't know. There's something about it, you know, James James maybe as our our resident Canadian, you want to weigh in here, but like it feels less braggy, right? Like it feels more
James Stacey Yeah, it's a little bit more subtle. I also think there's like if you're if what you're trying to do is make a connection back to a time when they didn't have it, then why put it on? Yeah. It's like if if you you know putting the wrong door on a Ventu Tom or like you like it try and unify the overall experience. And I think there's a time when the display case back adds to the experience, like with a Seiko five or great Patek, but there is that zone in the middle, like I mentioned, where like it kind of belies the experience in some ways or or the other philosophies of the watch, if you want to go in that deeply. But my my other guess is this is probably something that comes down less to the product and more to the buyer. So there's probably people who love a display case back on everything. Yeah. So that they can see the difference in the way that uh maybe let's say Braymont finishes a movement versus Tag Hoyer versus IWC versus Gnomos, right? With me, if I think that it suits some watches and it doesn't suit others, right? And if my doxes had a display case back, that would feel very strange to me. Almost like they went to a an extreme length to try and remake a watch from 1967. And then they're like, well, but we we got display casebacks, might as well use
Stephen Pulvirent them. I do want to talk about solid case backs. I mean I mentioned it just a second ago with the 5196. But James, you you mentioned earlier that like the Speedmaster has a solid case back, but it's full of engravings and text and whatever. The paddock has a completely you know solid back, like nothing, nothing on it, uh, or a completely blank back. And we see brands do both. I mean, like Gnomos has the club campus, which like is a watch basically designed around the idea of having an engravable case back. The backs of Rolexes and Tudors. Gnomos is
James Stacey an interesting thing because that's a brand that I think does display case backs really well. The movements often fit the aperture nicely, their movements look pretty good, and the industrial sort of finishing aligns with the entire philosophy for the brand. So unless I'm buying, you know, the Lambda or the expensive gold stuff, I think you you know, you spend a few grand on a steel gnomos and you're looking at the front and you flip it over to look at the back. That's a pre-unified experience. So there's not like a big disconnect between the way in which anything is finished there? Fitting the aperture, I think, is a
Danny Milton really, really good point. I think that's what separates a good not to cut off the direction we're going to a close case back, but what makes a good open case back is when it does fit the aperture. And not just that, but the distance when it seems that the movement's right up against you know the the sapphire or whatever material that it is you feel like you're right up against it where I think some of the lesser executed versions you feel like you're a little far away, which also adds to the case thickness and it's much smaller relative to the actual diameter of the case. Yeah. Yeah. You don'
Stephen Pulvirent t want that beautiful movement to be in a shadow. Right. Yeah. I I I totally agree. And I think it also, you know, again, this is stuff that like watchmakers could kind of hide in the past where, like, as long as it didn't put a sub-dial in a weird location, like you could use a movement that's like a little too small or a little too big for a given case size. You had a lot more flexibility. But if you're gonna show it through the case back, like there are watches where the movement looks tiny and it's like, okay, they can get away with it because it's a three-hander and like fine, you know. But when you turn the watch over and you've got, you know, a 42 millimeter case back and the sapphire window is 30 millimeters, you're like, uh like something just doesn't feel right. It it feels like a product that's been cobbled together as opposed to like a fully designed cohesive
James Stacey hole. Yeah. The other wrinkle that hit me while I was thinking about this show last night is just isn't it kind of funny that of all the watches that you could kind of that I think people would want to the extent that they made them in the aftermarket, uh display case back, it's the speedy. You know, it doesn't have water resistance that really matters. It's 100 meters, so it could definitely have a display case back. It's not an especially thin watch. It's not a remarkably small watch. The movement is the right size for the case. And it's actually a pretty interesting movement to look at, whether it's an older one or a newer one. But you know, around the same time that that we were talking about early two 2010s, you'd be on time zone or watch you seek and guys would be getting their display case back, the modded aftermarket case back for their speedy. And and then you could see the movement. You could see the function, you could see the cams and and the rest of it. And and and that's interesting where sometimes the demand is high enough that that people would go to that level. And and I guess when your watch is as ubiquitous as the Speedmaster, kind of cottage industries will spring up to allow
Stephen Pulvirent people that what they want for it. Yeah, I t I totally agree with you, James. And I think, you know, to to I'm I'm gonna kind of take your speedy point and pull us back the direction I was going in, which is for closed case backs, we're not talking about a homogenous thing in the same way that with open case backs, we're not talking about a homogenous thing, you know? A closed case back can be covered in text, it can be covered in logos, it can be totally blank, it can be brushed, it can be polished, it can have engravings. Like there's lots of uh flavors of closed case back. And they open up different opportunities for people. I mean, I know you know one of Ben's kind of gripes in the past with the Sedpemaster, and I totally agree with him 100%, is that like you can't engrave the case back of a basic Speedmaster, which is a bummer. Like that's a watch that I think could be and is an heirloom for a lot of people. Absolutely. It's a way to mark an important life event. Like that is a perfect watch to buy for a graduation, a birthday, the birth of a child, an important promotion. Like there's all kinds of reasons to do it. I mean, like, hell, honestly, like I almost bought one when Biden got elected because he was wearing one leading up to the election. And I really do think like the lack of an engravable case back, like helped pull me away from it in a real way. Like if I could have gotten that watch and engraved something about like, you know, 2020 on it, I would have thought more seriously about it. And yeah, I mean, again, we've talked about Gnomos, a little bit here, but like Gnomos designed a watch around the idea of engravings. The reverso was as has largely like survived on the idea of it being engravable. Rolex, Tudor, Cartier, these are brands that understand that having your watch be yours and having that be an opportunity is actually like a huge thing for a lot of buyers, even if it's not a huge thing for the like all the watch nerd buyers who who we often are kind of talking to and
Danny Milton about. I agree. I think that it's great. I mean Nomos not only actively makes the case back engravable but offers to engrave it for you as part of the buying process, which is even more, you know, of an active thing to do. The interesting thing about the Speedmaster is with the newest one, it's got even more text than it had before. I think they added the year to it, which just you know left you less space to engrave anything on it. But historically, you know, Omegas had interesting closed case backs. I think probably in the 50s, early 60s, they were totally blank somewhat, and then they, you know, they were adding their own the hippocampus or whatever kind of you know logo or moniker would be on the back, which actually became kind of a signature you know Omega effect on the back of their watches. Even you know Seamasters as late as I don't know the last eight years, you know, they had closed case backs in the signature sort of Omega style, which you could still engrave them sort of around that if you if you wanted to. But I would say Rolex and Tutor, or classic Tutor, would be the example of of watch brands that left it blank for you. Would brush the center part of the case back, you know, polish the outer part, would leave it for you to do what you want with, exceptions being which I think these are funny exceptions. The Rolex Milgauss and the Sea Dweller do have some dial text on the back, um, which, you know, is is great. It's kind of an interesting little I I find those things to actually be little pieces of intrigue that I like more than a display case back. I kind of like turning the watch over. I'm a sucker for typography. Usually there's some interesting typography that goes into engraving watches on the back. It usually ends up being kind of a classic style of engraving where you get kind of those squared off letter A or whatever you get, you know, from those engravings, which I also weirdly like on the Speedmaster. I do have one watch with a display case back, and I definitely, you know, as an enthusiast, would prefer to have the closed one. If ever I give a watch of mine to a child, I might want to engrave it. You know, they're not engraved now, but they may be in the future. And I have that, you know, that option open to me. Yeah. I mean, I I
Stephen Pulvirent recently helped a friend of a friend buy a watch for our mutual friend as a gift, just like helping him figure out like what to buy and he wanted to have it engraved. And it was a major constraint. Like I didn't realize how hard it was to find a watch that's like a quality piece at, you know, this was at a at a a more, you know, I would say middle price point. And to find a piece that like I thought this person would love and that I would be excited to receive that also had space on the case back for like an actual engraving to commemorate something. And yeah, I I didn't realize until like I guess what, like two weeks ago, three weeks ago, how hard that would be. But unless you want to buy a Rolex or a Tutor or like an entry level paddock, like there's not or a gnomos, uh, there's not a ton of
James Stacey options out there. The other interesting is is what you kind of highlighted in in talking about buying or helping pick a watch that was going to be bought for somebody else, is is this is one of those watch topics that kind of treads the line between watch enthusiasts and just people who buy watches. Yeah. Right? Or might be fans of jewelry and things like that. And I think that's why some of the more stoic brands, the ones that have been around for a long time and understand that they exist both in and outside of the enthusiast context, like a Rolex, like a tutor, like a Patek, in some ways like Gnomos. I mean Gnomos has a lot of accolades in the design community that may not be tied back to its watchmaking, right? That sort of thing. And and and to see those ones be the ones that people can still engrave, maybe isn't that surprising. I do find it weird that a brand like Omega doesn't have the option where if you buy the a speedy from the boutique, you could pick. I want the one with the NASA certification on it. I want the display. I know they make the display case back in the Sapphire Sandwich, or I could have uh clothes case back and they'll just shine up your uh display case back and put it in that big case and and then you have it for later. But that way you could leave a you know, I I think it makes a product like way stickier. If it's engraved, you're not gonna sell it, most likely, right? It it it it's kind of and it becomes a different thing when you buy a vintage watch that has an engraving that that there adds a a human element. And I I think it's just something where in within a world where people are kind of buying and selling watches just for the fascination of watches, display case max became more popular. But I think if if you you look look, to a time when people bought watches because you needed to wear a watch and and if you liked watches, that was fine, but not the same as it is now where there's websites and Instagram and red bars and and and all this kind of stuff. It's it's interesting to see that we it may be an ebb and flow thing where we move back towards a more traditional thinking about a case back at some point. I I think brand should definitely make an option. I think that's a really good point because the if you think about
Danny Milton it like with you know, watch collectinging hav grown so rapidly over the last decade and like you're saying, buying and selling, I mean, the case back rests against your wrist. You don't see it. Other people don't see it. It's pretty unnatural to take your watch off in public and hand it to somebody, especially if we're talking about how expensive a watch that watch might be, to sort of take it off and show it show it to them in public. I mean, generally speaking, the watch was under your shirt cuff. It was yours, you wore it every day. You put it dial-side up on your nightstand. I mean, the case back was the last thing you probably were ever thinking about or looking at. And an engraving would have been like a little secret for you and your watch. It's something that you knew was there, it's something that would might be there for somebody else down the line. Um, but I think that with the proliferation and enthusiast intrigue in watches, has made all aspects of a watch the the way that a crown is engraved, the way that the backside of the dial is engraved, the way that the case back is engraved, makes everything have to be more intentional and be able to be showed off to somebody else when when it used to be
Stephen Pulvirent more personal. Yeah, I I agree with that and I also I I I do want to just jump back to James's point before about giving people options, you know, I think if you look at the high end of anything else, basically, like all roads lead to custom, you know, like if you look at like men's clothing, if you look at even like cars, like everything ultimately leads to like getting something made for you. Very few watches operate that way still. Like watchmaking is still largely a thing where like the artisans or the companies produce a thing and you either buy it or you don't. There are exceptions to that. There are independent watchmakers, there are brands like VC that do the cabinotier. Like this is this is I'm painting with a broad brush here, but I think the watch world is gonna have to get more used to the idea of customized things. I think especially like our generation and the generation coming up below us are gonna be kind of like loath to spend large amounts of money on stuff that's commodities or that they feel like everyone else can have. And I think things like offering an option of case backs is an easy way to do that. Like there is definitely a market for somebody to walk into a longa boutique and say like you know what I do want a closed back on my data graph you know I'm not doing that um but like I think there's a market for that no no, no, no, no, no. I think there's a market for that. You disagree?
James Stacey No. Oh, I there's probably a market. I mean there's worlds full of rich people make weird decisions, but uh I I I think I think I think that like at large, if you're buying a data graph, just enjoy the case fac, come on All right. Maybe maybe I'm pushing it. And of course, I think most people would want. And and if I was ever fortunate enough to be in a position to get along a one, it's a dream watch for me. Probably one of my favorite kind of dressy, semi-complicated sort of watches out there. And uh I think I would have a hard time like deciding because it is the the the close case back is, I think, cooler, but also I'm maybe only cool enough to be, I want to see the movement. Like you know what I mean? So right
Stephen Pulvirent . No, no. I'm in the same boat, man. I would be in the same place. I would have a real tough time with that. Yeah, I I agree. Uh you need a hunter case back, longa one. Now we're talking. I mean, that's that's a whole other thing is there's there's some middle grounds here between open and closed. And to me, the two main ones are the traditional one, which is the hunter case back. So also called like an officer's case back sometimes where it's on a hinge it's a solid back but it's hinged and you can open it sometimes it has another solid back below it uh like a dust protector basically, for the movement, and you could get those engraved. Or now on more modern watches, it's essentially a solid back over a transparent back. And then the other kind of middle way here is the sapphire back that has stuff engraved or printed on the Sapphire. Hunter back, I'm all about. As long as you can keep the watch thin enough. Yeah. Putting stuff on the Sapphire case back, I am hard out on. I love Grand Seiko. I have professed my personal and professional love for Grand Seiko on this show many, many times. There might be nothing in modern watchmaking I find more frustrating than Grand Seiko printing stuff on the undersides of Sapphire crystals. Like there are so many modern Grand Secos I would love to own, except again, like the upside-down paddock text. Like it would bother me every time I turned the watch over, and there was like a big like ghosted lion logo covering up the balance wheel. Like it just makes
Danny Milton me nuts. I'd only like it if it was like um the way they laser engrave the front of a watch on the sapphire crystal, where if you just turn it it in the light and's just small enough, if it was like a little secret you were putting back there and you wanted somebody to find it thirty years later, if you just bend it in the right light, I'm for it. But
Stephen Pulvirent I I totally agree with you. Yeah, I'm with you on that, Danny. Like I could get behind that. It's I I just don't understand why you would like to me, you get the worst of both worlds by both like you make the watch thicker by putting a sapphire back on it. You make it thicker and more expensive. And you d there's nowhere to engrave. And you can't see the movement fully. It's like you don't get the upside that comes with all of those downsides. I'm sure, I mean, like the watches are selling. So like I'm sure there's a market for it. And I'm sure like a bunch of very smart people did some like focus group testing and market research. So like who the hell am I to say what they should and shouldn't do, but like it drives me crazy. It's like it's a to me, that is my least favorite version of a case back is a sapphire case back with stuff on the sapphire. That's fair. That's fair. Ultimately like when it comes down to it, like if you had to pick, and I know this is a stupid question in a lot of ways, but I gotta ask it anyway, like if you had to pick transparent back or solid back on all your watches, you just had one or the other with the upsides and the downsides, which to you is is kind of the way you would go if you had to just blanket across your whole collection? That
Danny Milton 's really tough. Um I'm I'm gonna have to go solid. I I if if I had to pick all of them, because then what then what you're saying is for the ones that I love that are solid I'd have to give 'em up and they'd have to have transparent case backs, therefore I'd have to go full solid across the line. Because I don't love any transparent case back as much on any watch as much as I love a solid case back on so many watches. So for that reason, if I had to pick one or the other, it's I guess easy, even though it's a very diffic
James Stacey ult question. Yeah, for me if I'm if I'm gonna be staying in the relative realm of the the watch market place that I exist in now, the kind of sub luxury space as an owner and a buyer. Yeah, I don't care. It just solids fine. Make the watch thin. I want to wear it. Right. And if it is solid, like yeah, give me some room to engrave it. Ma either make a little space or only put your text on one half and give me another half or figure out a way to make this fair. Or or ship it with two case backs. The one that says all the stuff about the moon and and the one that lets me say why I bought it. And that way if you decided to sell the watch, you could just keep the case back. Yeah. Like a medallion. Yeah, it's a medallion, a token. Yeah, for sure. Well, how about you, Steven? You you going uh display or no
Stephen Pulvirent ? I don't know, man. I think for my collection, I'm going solid, the collection I aspire to own. I think I would go transparent. Yeah. Um, like you know. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, yeah. If I if I've got a Longa One and if I've got a Chronomet Contemporane and I've got a simplicity and like if if I'm buying those watches, like yeah, sure, and I'll deal with the fact that like whatever you know explorer I end up owning gets like weirdly retrofitted with a transparent back, like fine. Yeah. If I could afford a a Gruble Forzy, we'd be having a different conversation because it's a crime to cover that up. Right? What I would not do to live in a world where James Stacy walks around rocking a Gruble Forzy. Sign me up. Oh, I'd I would just I would live with a SIG one day in, day out, SIG one for sure. All right, guys. Well, I honestly I feel like we like barely scratched the surface here, but at the same time, I I think we we got some good conversation in. So thank you for your time. You know, anybody listening, make sure to visit the site and hit us up in the comments. If you have thoughts on case backs, I'm sure there's plenty of fodder for a follow-up to this. So let us know about your questions, your opinions, what you think we got right, what you think we got wrong, and uh hopefully we'll we'll be able to address it on a future show. Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me on. Thanks, Steven. Thanks, guys.