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How 'Grand' Should Grand Seiko Really Be?

Published on Mon, 8 Mar 2021 11:00:00 +0000

Growing and evolving while staying true to yourself is tough stuff. But we think Grand Seiko can pull it off.

Synopsis

In this episode of Hodinkee Radio, host Stephen Pulvirent is joined by colleagues Jack Forster and John Mayer to discuss the evolution of Grand Seiko as a brand. The conversation centers on how Grand Seiko has transformed from a cult favorite among watch enthusiasts into a more mainstream luxury brand since splitting from parent company Seiko in 2017 and expanding internationally.

The three discuss Grand Seiko's recent releases, including the new Seasons GMT collection and the white birch model featuring the innovative 9SA5 high-beat movement with a new dual-impulse escapement. They acknowledge that while average price points have increased 20-30%, the brand still offers exceptional value, with entry-level models under $3,000 and compelling options in the \(4,000-\)8,000 range. The panelists reflect on their personal nostalgia for when Grand Seiko was harder to obtain and represented "insider knowledge," but ultimately recognize this sentiment is more about their own egos than actual quality concerns.

A key theme is Grand Seiko's distinctive design philosophy and commitment to craft, particularly evident in their textured dials and high-end spring drive movements with hand-finishing. The group discusses how the brand is deliberately repositioning itself as a luxury player—exemplified by opening a flagship boutique on Paris's Place Vendôme—while maintaining watches that still represent their original values. They debate the merit of ultra-premium limited editions like the $60,000 platinum tree rings model and $103,000 Kintaro Hattori anniversary piece, concluding these represent legitimate technical achievements even if aggressively priced.

Ultimately, all three agree that Grand Seiko should be "as grand as it wants to be," praising the brand's unique perspective, technical innovation, and ability to create watches with genuine personality that stand apart from Swiss competitors. They emphasize that affordable options still exist for enthusiasts, even as the brand pursues higher-end positioning in the luxury market.

Transcript

Speaker
Jack Forster I have the ultimate sort of inside information, Sna that there's there's there's there's no sentence I like being able to say more than, ah, but did you know? And I used to be able to say that about Grant Segel. Well, you know, all of that Swiss stuff is that's that's fine for beginners. But if you really want something interesting, there's this thing from Japan that you don't know about. And like I don't get to do that anymore. And I don't know, is part of what I miss about the good old days my own ego investment in being perceived as an expert about something other people didn't know about? Probably not a little
Stephen Pulvirent bit Hey everybody, I'm your host Stephen Polverant and this is Hodenkee Radio. A couple weeks ago, Grand Seiko launched their new collections for the year, and it got me thinking, the brand has changed a lot over the last few years. Price points have gone up, they've introduced a bunch of new movements, and the brand even split off as its own company from parent company Seiko. So I started thinking, how grand should Grand Seiko actually be? We know they can make incredible watches at very affordable price points and completely superlative watches as well. So I thought I'd bring in a few experts to help me here. I've got my colleagues John and Jack, both of whom are longtime Grand Seiko collectors and fans. And we're gonna pick through all of this. We're gonna look at the most recent watches, we're gonna look at how they differ from watches from past years, talk about our favorite models, the things that drew us to the brand in the first place, and try to puzzle out what the future might look like for Grand Seiko in reality and in our own personal fantasies. So without further ado, let's do this. Hey guys, how you doing? Good to see you. Hey Steven. Good to see you too. Uh so we're here to talk today about Grand Seiko. And when I was thinking, you know, Gray and I were talking about who to have on the show this week, uh, I think it took us approximately one second, maybe two seconds to settle on the two of you guys. I I think that was probably a smart choice, right? I guess we're gonna find out Yeah I mean just just for background for folks who maybe aren't as familiar, uh you know, I'm obviously a a longtime fan of Grand Seiko. I bought a vintage Grand Seiko on my first trip to Tokyo. Uh there's probably I don't know a dozen modern Grand Seiko's that I've like seriously thought about buying and haven't for one reason or another. Uh John and Jack, you guys are are similarly both like I I would say on the whole, fans of the brand, right? Yes. Yeah. I would say so. Yeah, I'm definitely a fan. May maybe we'll start with John. Like how, would you describe your sort of like relationship to Grand Seiko uh briefly? Just so just so we set this up at the top
John Mayer . Yeah. I mean I you know it's Grand Seiko is a brand that's been on my on my radar for a long time. Certainly I I first became aware of it when I, you know, in the course of covering watches, but before they came to the United States. And I'm probably on record somewhere in an article saying they should bring this they should bring this line to the United States, you know, before before they actually did it. Um and uh you know I have one I only own one Grand Seiko but it's one of the two or three watches that I tend to wear the most. How about
Jack Forster you, Jack? Um I go back up I feel like a pretty long way with Grand Seiko. Certainly John and I can both remember when you could not get Grand Seco in the United States. And it was, you know, it was this exotic, obviously very high craft, really beautifully made watch that you could only get in Japan. And it had kind of a legendary insider status among uh you know among like hardcore hardcore enthusiasts like it was definitely not anybody's it was well it was one person uh uh who i who I know quite well uh it was his first uh first first good watch, but it wasn't like certainly wasn't most people's first good watch back in the day. Yeah. And it has been a really, really interesting experience seeing them go from uh, you know, being this, you know, sort of cult classic of a cult classic to uh it'll becoming a much more widely exposed um brand and the the growth has been it's been amazing for them and it's been interesting to watch. It's come with some speed buffs, I think, for people who have uh followed Grant Sago for a long time and might be a little bit nostalgic, you know, for the quote unquote good old days, which I guess is one thing we could talk about, were the good old days actually the good old days and start, you know
Stephen Pulvirent , and how do they stack up compared to today? Yeah, I mean, and that's that's kind of what we're here to talk about, right? Like the the idea behind this conversation is is that Grand Seiko, as they've expanded internationally and as they've split off from Seiko as a parent company to become their own, you know, Grand Seiko is now its own brand and company from a sort of like corporate standpoint. Um they've they've changed a little bit and and in some ways that are amazing, and some ways that are maybe problematic, and in some ways that make us lament the good old days. And I'm curious to talk to the two of you guys about, you know, what what we think is maybe the sweet spot for us and and knowing other collectors, maybe for the community. Um and and I think a good place to start is just, you know, that split between Grand Seiko and Seiko happened in 2017. And since then, we've seen a lot of Grand Seiko's new releases are trending up in price point, right? It's things that start with sixes and sevens, not fours and fives. And, you know, that's not earth shattering. Like we're not talking about the average Grand Seco being twenty thousand dollars, forty thousand dollars. But you know, that's a twenty percent difference, thirty percent difference. Um, I mean, do you do you guys, you know, before we get too deep into it, do do you guys agree? Like, is that an accurate read on on what's been happening?
John Mayer It feels accurate, um, to me. Um the prices of new releases you're right have have been higher than than those in the past, uh even in the fairly recent past. But I think there still are a number of, you know, popular core models uh in uh uh a price point that would be familiar to someone from say four years ago or five years ago uh that are still there and they're still popular. So I I don't yeah. So I I think I think you're right. The change is reflected in new product, but I I don't think that there have been like uh I'm not aware of major price increases of popular existing models
Jack Forster . Yeah, I think that um I think that's true, John. You know, part of the part of the problem to the extent that there is a problem, uh, and it's it's certainly not a problem for Grant Seco if they're able to consistently sell watches uh with a kind of higher touch feel to them at a higher price point. But I think part of the issue, part of the issue maybe, you know, for old timers like me, Grant Saca, old timers like me, is uh it's really just um a question of emphasis and messaging rather than on actual change in access to quality at a reasonable price. I mean, if you go and look at the sort of general Grand Seco, you know, product offerings, you can still get into a Grand Seco, I mean the entry-velle models are still under $3,000. Um, there's a ton of really attractive models at under \(4,000. And the high-end stuff has dominated a lot of what we have seen get foregrounded by Grand Seco as they've worked to reposition themselves as a sort of medium to high luxury watch brand, which is kind of I think the market that they're going after. The GMT that you have, John, the SBGM 221 is still a 4\)6,00 watch and it's a tremendous amount of watch for the money. So, you know, while a lot of our attention has been, you know, kind of directed, I think on purpose, um, to the higher-end offerings, uh to the more expensive offerings, the uh less pricey stuff that still represents a tremendous amount of bang for the buck is still there. It's an easy thing to forget though nowadays
Stephen Pulvirent . Yeah, that's that's a really good point, Jack. And and I I think maybe we start the conversation by talking about the newest stuff. I mean, like Grand Seco had their virtual summit a week ago now, a week and a half ago now. Um, and we we got some really interesting and enticing new products. So I thought let's do a quick run through of those, just get our first thoughts out of the way. I'm sure people are curious what we think of them. And then maybe talk about how those fit into this bigger narrative that we're we're talking about. So let's start um maybe with the latest seasons collection, which you know we saw in the past as time and date models, two spring drive, two automatic. And now we're seeing these as GMT models, two high-beat automatic, two uh spring drives. Uh I personally uh saw these watches and immediately was trying to figure out which of them to buy. I really, really like these four four pieces. I'm curious what you guys think and maybe how they stand up to the the previous quartet of seasons watches
John Mayer . Yeah, I agree with you, Steven. I I was thinking the same thing. Particularly the uh the high beat GMTs. Um, you know, if yeah. Yeah, if you know that, um if you know that I have the SBGM two two one, um these are these are watches, the they're slightly differentes case siz they're a little bit thicker uh to accommodate the high beat movement but they're they're very much uh in the the kind of wheelhouse of the SPGM221 uh a watch that I love um I think these are great
Jack Forster . Yeah, they still um, you know, they still strike me as being tremendous, tremendous bang for the buck. And they're they're absolutely gorgeous. Uh I mean, I think that they're really beautiful watches. And okay, you know, sure to some extent it feels like a little bit of an oomch up in price, but you know, I feel like you're getting a high beat movement, you're getting really beautiful dial treatments. Um my whole sort of reaction to some of the more premium pricing on both these and other Grand Saco releases over the the last couple of years, two to three years really has been like, you know, sometimes it seems seems high, but it doesn't seem unreasonable relative to the rest of the market
Stephen Pulvirent . Yeah. No, I think that's I think that's a totally fair take here. Um and and I think you know John touched on you know the high beat movements being being important here and I think that's that's something we'll talk about in more detail, but we also got a kind of standalone new high beat that in includes the new high beat time and date caliber, the new uh 9SA5, and that's the so-called SLGH005 white birch, um, which also just like I I can't wait to see this watch in person
Jack Forster . Yeah, absolutely. I mean it certainly looks fantastic in pictures. Typically these sorts of dial treatments from Grand Seco look even more breathtaking in person. And uh I kind of love what they've done with the design, you know, this uh this new sort of um you know what they're calling the series nine design language. Um it it's it rolled out in a kind of muted fashion, but and it's you know it it doesn't have um you know sort of universal accolades from the grand sake of fandom because it is it does have a lot of character it's very idiosyncratic you know the uh these uh um the truncated hour hand and uh the sort of very, very brilliantly faceted faceted, deeply cut dial markers uh are not necessarily everybody's cup of tea, but they make a tremendous, tremendous, tremendous visual impression. I happen to like them personally quite a bit. And um, you know, the white birch is I think an extraordinarily beautiful piece. Now, the other interesting thing about the white birch, of course is that it's vehicle for the new 9 SA5 high beat movement, uh, with Seka's uh you know with her new do impulse escapement. So like you don't you'll you look at the price at first and you say to yourself, all right, 9,100 bucks even for a special dial, this feels like maybe a little uh a little pushy. But at the same time, you know, it does it happens extremely seldom that a watch any kind of watch comes out with uh with a new escapement you know you can sort of argue you know how new is actually new an escapement design nowadays after 500 years of mechanical watch development, but you know, nonetheless, it's a new design. Um, it happens very seldom. It's a step up in terms of movement finishing over the previous high B calibers, and uh, you know, again, like, is it is it excessive? Is nine thousand one hundred bucks too much for a Grand Sago? It might be too much for some Grand Sago's, but it doesn't feel like too much for this Grand Sego to me. Yeah.
John Mayer Yeah. If I I I for me it's really a the all of these, you know, new new high beat uh time only is that with this new movement, it's really to me it's about the movement because I s when I look at the I'm looking at a big exploded view of the movement right now in a s in the story that Jack wrote. And to me, this is a this is a movement that's matched to the to the dial quality. You know, I think uh if there was maybe one thing I could potentially criticize Grand Seiko for in the past, it's that the dials exceeded the movements, in my opinion, in many cases, of course, with the exception of like, you know, the Credor spring drives and the very high-end spring drives that we'll probably talk about later. But I think, you know, your your base kind of uh 9S movements, um, the dial, I think I just think that the finishing of the dials exceeded the quality of the finishing on the movements. Uh with this, I see it, I see it really catching up and um in kind of standing on equal footing with uh with the the quality of the dial furniture. Um that's just my two cents about this, but uh, you know, uh I I I love all of these watches and n you know, ninety one hundred dollars, I think is the price for this feels to me like uh feels to me very fair for what
Stephen Pulvirent for what this watch is offering. Yeah, I I I totally agree. And I think I think that's definitely something I want to touch on is the fact that kind of I feel like these watches feel more complete in certain ways. Not that previous ones felt incomplete, but I think now seeing them side by side, I think you're right. Like something about this feels more um holistically considered uh and more kind of thoroughly considered. Um it's it's interesting. I mean, the white birch, we look at is just a hair under $10,000. Uh but then there's a very similar watch that's just a hair under $60,000, uh, which is the tree rings LE, which is uh a similar concept, uh, but with a a special black dial. Um, it's a platinum case, it's limited to 140 pieces. Um and that watch, then we start to get into to what you know we'll talk a little bit about, which is this new category of Grand Seco, the 50, 60, 80,000, $120,000 Grand Seiko. And I wonder for you guys just looking at the tree rings next to the white birch. Um what what do you think? Like what kind of what's what's your analysis here of the the price differential and then the the sort of difference between the actual like quality of the watches.
Jack Forster You know, you look at luxury watches in the price range that a lot of Grand Seco watches exist in, and you really you don't see hand finishing. And there's a reason that you don't see hand finishing. You know, you look at a um really nicely, you know, a really well-made industrially finished movement from I mean, pick a company, Rolex or Omega, for instance, and you know, sure you see some premium quality uh movement decoration, but it's not the kind of you know relentlessly consistently hand applied stuff that you see at the high high-end from you know companies like Crater or at the high end from Paddock Philippe or at the high end from you know Vashmar Vasharon or Automars. And there's a reason for that. That kind of thing costs a lot of money. It's extremely time consuming. It doesn't really lend itself to industrial series production. And as a result, real-hand finishing costs an awful lot of money. And I think that even today I'm surprised that there's uh less of a general awareness than there should be about what's actually involved in doing real-hand finishing as opposed to doing a movement with you know nice industrial finishing. And I look at 9S series mechanical movements from Grand Seiko and I love the dial furniture. I love how much you know effort goes into producing these beautiful hands and indexes. I look at the movements and I don't see something that feels necessarily inappropriate to a watch at that price point. But I think that what John, you know, I think that the point John made is an interesting one because there's so much handwork that goes into the uh and so much uh obvious apparent thought that goes into the dials. It does, it felt like there was a little bit of a discontinuity, if not in value that then in terms of intention between kind of where the dial and the dial furniture was going and where the movement was going. Now, as far as these two watches are concerned, that is a huge premium to pay for a limited edition platinum watch. And you know, is it worth it? Is a question that can really only be answered by an individual who is seriously considering you know buying it. It seems uh pretty frisky to me, uh, you know, the price for the limited edition platinum model. Um, but you know, I think I said when I covered it, seems high but not unreasonable and I still feel that
Stephen Pulvirent way. Yeah, I mean I I think describing it as as frisky feels feels appropriate to me, like jumping from $10,000 to $60,000 for a platinum case and the fact that it's limited feels aggressive to me. And whether or not there are people there to buy it, uh, it says something about where the brand wants to position itself, uh, the kind of clients they want purchasing these watches. Uh and and I don't know. I mean for me, like I'm not purchasing this watch whether it's thirty thousand, fifty thousand, a hundred thousand dollars. Uh so like honestly at the end of the day, like Grand Seco probably shouldn't care what I think. Uh it's not going to make them a penny. Uh so so props, props to them. Like good for them if they can sell them. Uh I I kind of like scoffed when I saw the price. You know, like as an enthusiast of the brand, I was like, come on guys, like just because you can doesn't mean you should. Uh and like even if this watch were priced at forty thousand dollars, I would feel way better about it than at sixty thousand dollars. I mean, listen, for sure, I don't uh you
Jack Forster know you look at this thing, you look at the price, you compare it to uh the steel model, and you know, I think aggressive is exactly the word. I think it's I think it's a deliberately aggressive move on Grant Seco's part. I think it's a deliberate um part of a deliberate strategy to reposition the watch as you know desi as at the brand as a desirable thing in and of itself and not just you know on the intrinsic qualities of a watch. So okay. So you have this brand, you have the brand Grand Seiko, which is now separate from SECO. That was a deliberate move. You have the creation of these very, very expensive limited editions, which is also a deliberate move. And it's really about reorienting people's perspectives on what the brand itself means. So, you know, we are, you know, we live in a situation where and in a world where we absolutely understand that how much you can ask for something is not necessarily related to its intrinsic properties, whatever that means, right? And you know, we can have an awfully long argument about what intrinsic properties actually means in the context of not just watches, but pretty much anything else that's highly valued. So I think that they know what they're doing in terms of creating an impression of the brand, creating a sort of a vision of the brand, a version of the brand that really didn't exist before. So this is not, you know, speaking of the good old days, a watch like this, a 60,000 plus limited edition in platinum from Grand Sego. This is definitely not the Grand Sego that I remember fondly seeing through rose-colored glasses from the early 2000s that you had to order from a reseller in Japan. And literally everybody would stop if you were in a gathering of watch enthusiasts and you came in wearing one because it was so rare to see one and they were objects of genuine fascination. You don't look at this. You don't look at a 60,000 plus platinum Grand Sagal Limited edition and say to yourself, Holy smokes, what tremendous value for the dollar I'm getting. You know, but that's not, but I don't think that's what this watch wants you to think, and I don't think that's what R
Stephen Pulvirent ed Sacle wants you to think about this particular watch. Agreed. Uh and and there are other examples of that. I mean, we could we we could go totally to the crazy end and go to the SB G D two oh seven, which is their new masterpiece collection piece, which, you know, has emeralds and diamonds and Green Mother of Pearl and is like, you know, it's what, a hundred and eighty five thousand dollars US and that's that's a different conversation, I think. But um I mean that gets us through through some of the highlights. I mean there's there's other new releases. Those are the ones that I think feel most kind of like relevant to us and to this conversation. Um and and we've touched on some of these points, but I think it's important to note that when we when we talk about Grand Seco becoming more grand, we're not just talking about price point here. And I don't want this to sound like an overly simplified conversation where we're just quibbling about a brand's price structure. Uh you know, along with the move up market, we've seen some real serious innovation, and it's innovation in consumer-grade watches. These are not concept pieces. I mean, yes, we got that crazy turbine movement that's in a glass case in Japan. But outside of that, we've seen new spring drive movements. We've seen new a new high beat caliber with a new escapement. I mean, Jack, like just those two things alone are more technical innovation than a lot a lot of brands do in a decade. And we've seen them in the last what, three years? Well this is yeah, I me
Jack Forster an I completely agree with you, Stephen. And this is why I'm kind of saying that I think that perhaps they have more of an image problem than an actual problem. Well, for a luxury brand, an image problem can be an actual problem. Also I'm not sure I'm not actually sure whether the distinction I just attempted to draw is a coherent or meaningful one. But um yeah, they innovate a lot. They do a lot of stuff technically that uh that other brands don't do. If you want sort of the grand sacred from the good old days, it still exists. It hasn't gone anywhere. You know, I mean it hasn't been wiped off the face of the earth. Um, I think that it's important for Grand Seco to kind of reposition themselves in the market as something broadly understood as an aspirational brand. And they were definitely not broadly understood as an aspirational brand back in the early 2000s when I was first getting familiar with them. This was an oddball niche, super, super interesting. Holy smokes, why can't you get that from Switzerland kind of thing to bring to a a you know gathering of watch enthusiasts or show off on one of the forums that people frequented back in those days. And all of that's changed completely. You know, and so much of my nostalgia for Grand Seco, like I can't, for what Grand Seiko used to be, you know, back in the day, I can't really tease that away from my nostalgia for what's the for what the watch world used to be like, you know, back in the early 2000s. When you could s when you could still get gold paddock Philippe's for under
John Mayer 10,000 bucks. And those days are long gone as we know. That's a really good point you make, Jack, actually. To kind of look at this in the within the context of the watch industry uh and how it's in in the moves that it's made. I mean I guess you know Grand Seco's uh move up market or perceived move up market has been marked by an actual rebranding into a into a separate brand. So there have been like milestones that we can that we can peg it to. And so the it we see it in kind of like a fuller relief maybe. But you know this is something that the entire watch industry, I can't think of a single brand actually that hasn't been affected by this to some extent or another over the last 10 years.
Jack Forster I mean it's bananas you look at price increases over the last 20 years and just just across the board. I mean we're talking about 500% price increases in some cases, you know, for from for models whose development costs, incidentally and production costs have long since been amortized. So it's not as if uh it's not as if when you're buying, I mean, pick a luxury brand at a model that's been around for longer than you know five years, 10 years, it's not as if you can rationalize that you're help helping to offset development costs. You are paying a luxury premium for the perception that you are acquiring a luxury product that is perceived as a luxury product by other people who know what that product is. And this is part of this is part of the larger evolution of mechanical horology into something that represents you know that is a lux
Stephen Pulvirent ury yeah i i i totally agree with you and i think that context is important and i think we can see Grand Seiko working through these problems. And as you said, John, like we we have milestones and it's happening on an accelerated timeline since they only entered the market recently, you know, the international market recently, and then split off, and they're doing all these technical innovations. Like we're essentially seeing like 30 or 40 years of development compressed into like maybe like seven or eight years. Um, and and it's it's interesting. I mean, the the things both of you, I mean you've both been familiar with Grand Sacle longer than I have been. You've both been in the industry longer than I've been um in the industry. And I what I'm hearing from you is is that a lot of that early love came from from an enthusiast's perspective and it came from the idea that these these watches A were hard to find. You just even as a journalist in this space like couldn't see them whenever you wanted to. It came from the fact that they were Japanese and not Swiss. They were they were something different. And then it came from the fact that they they approached the idea of a luxury watch in a way that was different from how everybody else was approaching the idea of a luxury watch. And now Grand Seiko is available in many, many countries around the world. Uh the price point and value proposition is, I I I'll editorialize here a little bit, still good, and I think both of you agree it's still very good, but it's getting closer to some of its competitors. Um and the products are positioned in a way that is slightly more like a traditional European luxury brand would position their products. So all of those things make sense because it's a company. Like they want to make more money and they need to get bigger and they need to sell more watches if they're going to do these things like invest in a new hybrid escapement, like and provide value to their shareholders. Like that is also important. So I wonder in this kind of balancing act and this world where Grand Seco's kind of like coming out of the shadows and kind of uh you know acting more like a normal your uh a traditional European luxury brand. Do do you feel like it's it's losing any of the things that made you love it or are you just having to find new ways to engage with those things? And I'll I'll give my answer at the end, but I'm I'm curious for yours first since you both have more context than I do.
John Mayer You know, I I I don't I don't think we're I don't think it's losing anything. It just feels different and i think one of the i i think we one thing we haven't talked about at all yet and that i think is actually huge is one of the most sym symbolically big things that they did was opening that their huge boutique in place von dome in paris, right? Like if there if there is anything that Grand Seiko has done recently that has, I think, sent uh a message about uh what the what this brand is and how they see themselves, it's that, right? I mean
Stephen Pulvirent they're they're they put themselves square. And it's not just any boutique. They opened in the old Fred space. They opened in a historic space for watches on the Place Monthome.
John Mayer Yeah. And so uh there there is no doubt any longer I think of aggressive. Right? There' nos doubt any longer as to what grand seco how they see themselves. I don't think they see themselves necessarily as a quirky, um, you know, uh more esoteric high-end brand for enthusiasts. This is a proper luxury watch brand that uh wants to stand shoulder to shoulder with um you know the Rolexes and the APs and the uh lunga and zonas of the world. I think that's I I really do think that. And and and i think the the opening of that boutique certainly sends that message
Jack Forster yeah you know i mean why doesn't it feel like the good old days it's because it's not the good old days right i mean fair the the brand has changed how it wants to position itself has changed how it wants to be perceived as you know has has has changed it's uh and it's happening because they're trying to catch up to the rest of the market on certain level on a certain level and with certain products and at certain price points, they've a little bit got their finger on the fast forward button. So it feels precipitous to people like me who were used to sort of grant SACO existing as this stable, you know, this island of stability in the middle of a sea of rapidly fluctuating prices and rapidly fluctuating offerings from year to year that seem very novelty-driven. And they are playing a different game now than they were 15 years ago, 10 years ago, even eight years ago, five years ago. It's become a different company very, very rapidly. And the thing that the thing that I keep telling myself is it's the origin the original values that drew me to Grand Saco in the first place, they're still there. And the original offering of very, very high value relative to its competitors, you know, that stuff is still there as well. It just doesn't get talked about as much this day these days because it's not where the action is in terms of how the company is trying to shift its perceptions. But yeah, John's absolutely right. You know, this is it's it's a luxury brand. It's behaving more like a conventional luxury watch brand than it used to. And I actually don't know how Grand Seiko perceived itself in the early 2000s. I know how I perceived it as somebody who'd never been to Japan um and and who who's struggled to see one I mean I saw one actual Grand Seiko in person uh between two thousand and two thousand five, I want to say
Stephen Pulvirent . You know, I mean Yeah, I mean I I think that's actually, Jack, a really important point. And something I I wanted to talk about is like, and the reason why I think the three of us having this conversation is in some ways interesting, and also like where we the three of us all have blinders on in a certain way is that like we are three Japan-obsessed white dudes who also love watches, and so like, and we're also all three of us kind of contrarians in a certain way, and so you give us a Japanese product that's hard to get and feels kind of like mysterious and technical and interesting. And like that's that's like catnip to the three of us. Yeah, I was gonna that was the word on the tip of my tongue actually. Cat this is catnip for us. Yeah. And it's right. You're 100% right. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So the moment you start taking away like a little bit of that mystery and it stops feeling so insider-y, and you don't have to like have a buddy in Japan to get one, like of course the three of us are gonna be like oh well there go the good old days but like it's actually like on the whole like we should be excited about that right like m more people are getting to experience cool Japanese watches than ever before. They may be a little bit more expensive. They may be like, you know, there may be this weird dynamic of like limited editions and non and like the whole thing. But like ultimately like it's it's probably a net positive for the three of
Jack Forster I mean it's it's actually very it's it's a little bit painful to be that accurately diagnosed because you're a hundred percent right, Stephen. Like you know, I'm I'm I'm the ultimate sort of inside information snob that there's there's there's there's no sentence I like being able to say more than, oh, but did you know? Dot dot dot. And I used to be able to say that about Grant Segel. Well, you know, all of that Swiss stuff is that's that's fine for beginners. But if you really want something interesting. Th'sere this thing from Japan that you don't know about. And like I don't get to do that anymore. And I don't know. Is is part of what I miss about the good old days my own ego investment in being perceived as an expert about something other people didn't know about probably
Stephen Pulvirent that's why we're all journalists, Jack. That's that's what got us here. But uh with our own biases like kind of like on the table, like fully out there for everybody. Uh I'm curious, like, what do you actually just think of the product itself? Like if you looked today at Grand Seiko's website and went and flipped through the product catalog, or you walked into the boutique in New York or Place Mandome or Tokyo or wherever, and you compared that to the watches, the actual just the watches, if you compared them to what you might have seen five, 10 years ago, where where do you net out? Like what are your feelings on the products as products? And and you don't even necessarily have to take price into account. You can, you don't have to, but I'm I'm just curious like what you think of the watches. I'll
John Mayer just say, you know, when when I first saw the new high beat movement, which was I think in our own you know, it was on our website. It was in the back end of our website as Jack was, you know, uh we were we were imminently going to publish it or something. I I I saw it. Um and I was just like, damn. I was like, that is a beautiful movement. And and you know, in no shade against anything that Grand Seiko had done prior to it. I own c you know a a previous generation of uh mechanical watch from Grand Seiko, but it seemed to me to just be uh a cut above what I had what I had seen. You know, forgetting a forgetting you know Creedor in super high end spring drive. But seeing this movement specifically from last year, It's just I think it's an objectively better looking movement. And um yeah, the that's it it prov
Jack Forster oked a response. I think I yeah, I mean I gotta I gotta be honest. I see their products in person and they're I have a really, really hard time not going wow every time I see a new Grand Seiko watch in person. I think they make some of the most leaving aside the question of price and brand positioning and all that jazz, should they be able to get away with this? Should they not be able to get away with this? Beyond a certain point to me that's a lot less interesting than the fact that these are some of the most beautiful watches anybody is making on the planet right now and they have been for years and they have their own unique design language they have their own unique you know sort of expression of a real philosophy about about about craft and how watches should be made and about how watches should be designed. And is everything a home run? No. Is everything universally appealing? No. Is that what they're going for? I don't think so. Uh are the watches objectively beautifully made? In every single case, yes, as far as I can tell. Um and they're they're breathtaking. They're gorgeous, they're gorgeous watches
Stephen Pulvirent . You know? I I agree. And I I think Jackie you touched you touched on something there at the end that I I think is so important to why I love Grand Seiko and why, like, despite price increases, I still think they they present what I would consider is great value. Is they're different and they have a point of view. Like whether you're looking at something like the SPGW 231, like that that time only, like almost Cala Trava-like in certain ways, watch, or whether you're looking at the SPGM 221 that John's talked about, or one of these brand new uh Spring Drive GMTs, or the White Birch, or one of the first reissues. Like there Grand Senko has has a diverse range of products, but they all feel like they could only be made by Grand Seiko. Uh and in an industry that is often so focused on like figuring out a formula of what sells, and then everybody makes their version of that thing, and then we burn out on it and they end up at gray market dealers and then we find out what the next thing is and we burn through that. Like Grand Seiko's doing their thing. And I know a lot of watch enthusiasts who don't like Grand Seiko at all. Who just like it doesn't resonate with them. And that's cool because for the people it does resonate with, it really resonates. Like, I don't know many people who feel lukewarm about Grand Seiko's products. And and I find that really appealing. Um and then you get into like Jack as you said and and John as you said as well, like the objective quality. Like these dials are maybe the most beautiful dials being made on any watch under fifty thousand dollars. Like, you know, I I think like the dial on the white birch, I have not seen it up close, but if it's anything like the snowflake and some of Grand Seiko's other textured dials, uh like you could put this up against basically like any dial not being made by Kari Vutilainen uh and it's probably gonna be better. Um and like I think that's cool. I think it's cool that it has its own personality. It has quirks. And whether that's in a time-only 36 millimeter dress watch or like a 40-something millimeter spring drive chronograph or anything in the middle, you still get a whiff of that personality. And that's that's surprisingly rare in today's watch market at any price point. There
John Mayer have been quite a lot of them too. When you think of the the textured um the textured dials, like I I I never like stopped to to to count them but there at this point have just been a ton of them. I I would love to that could be an interesting thing to look at actually in in the form of a story is kind of just how many have there been and and just a real look at the variety.
Stephen Pulvirent Yeah. I mean Grand Seco is is also threading a needle here, and I I think it's worth us touching on this as as well. Is that we've talked a lot about prices going up, you know, whatever, but part of that is is a broader corporate strategy, right? Seiko, what would what we call like as an industry term, like core Seiko, like Seiko that is not Grand Seiko, um, their average price points are going up, and that has a lot to do with sp smartwatches and fashion watches and like the the dynamics in the like 100 to 1000 price point. And as those come up, Grand Seiko has to come up as well so that it doesn't impinge on its on its sibling brand. And then you've got Credor at the higher end. You know, we've got watches like the Ichi and watches like the Sonary and Minute Repeater uh up there. And so Grand Saco has to has to still occupy a a middle way, and that's that's a thing that I don't think the brand gets kind of enough appreciation for, uh, whether you like the price increases or don't, is that it's it's kind of it's kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place in in certain ways, right
Jack Forster ? Yeah, yeah, I agree. I mean I think it I think that it's really interesting to note that Core Seiko is going through some of the same transformations that Grand Seiko is going through. And that part of the strategy for the development of both brands has to be clarification that what one offers is not what the other is offering, that there's not that you don't have where the two brands have price points as price points that kind of start to intersect with each other. You want to make sure that one is not necessarily cannibalizing the other. But yeah, you know, Stephen, you make a great point. The fact is that a mechanical watch more than ever, especially with the rise of smart watches, a mechanical watch is definitely something more than ever, for sure, something that absolutely positively nobody needs. You know, Joe Thompson was fond of saying that we are in the toy shop side of life and we get very, very passionate about this stuff because what it means to us, it has a lot more to do with kind of perceived intangible values than it does with actual practical utility. And the paradox of watchmaking is that we want there to be an absolute commitment to utility as part of the signal that the watch sends about its the care taken in making it and the and sort of its connection to its own history. But it's weird, right? Like you're supposed to have something that expresses this intense connection to a core functionality that is actually the last thing that most people need from that particular product. And so we have, you know, kind of the spectrum of the smartwatch and the spectrum of the ubiquity of time in the form of cell phones, driving things progressively higher and higher and higher because that's the only place left for them to go
Stephen Pulvirent . Yeah, I I totally agree. And I think like you say, like that's that's broader market dynamics. It's not just Grand Seiko. Um I I have always personally found the Creador watches tremendously appealing and and you know, to kind of like fault this conversation back on itself, like the start of this conversation was like have has the like core of Grand Seiko, the like heart of Grand Seiko's lineup like inched up in price and gotten too expensive. Uh but now I'm gonna argue that like I think actually the watches that are maybe like most appealing are the brand's most expensive watches. Um I I don't know. I think there's there's a level of genuine artistry to these watches and they again are so different from anything their Swiss counterparts could could produce. Uh I d I don't know. There these these are watches that like literally make me gasp when I see them. Uh I would imagine you guys feel the same way. Yeah, I me
Jack Forster an the big takeaway for me from this whole conversation, Stephen, is a point that you made a little bit earlier. They have a point of view. And how much is that worth? How much is a point of view worth? How much is a real philosophy of design worth? How much is a clearly articulated, constantly evolving, unique visual language, and in many respects, unique uh technical capability. How much is that worth? How much is it worth? Taking into account the dynamics of luxury pricing. It's not worth nothing. It's not worth not
Stephen Pulvirent hing. Agreed. All right. So to wrap things up here, I got a quick couple of quick like little uh like rapid fire questions that uh that we can use to hopefully put put a little bit of a point on this and then we'll we'll do a final wrap up. So I wanna know, you know, if if we're saying that the the changes have really happened over the last, let's say, five years is when this has all accelerated. You could argue it was eight years, you could argue it was three years, whatever, but we'll let's say five, it's easy. Uh what is your favorite Grand Seco release from the last five years? Just your personal favorite watch. Uh John, maybe maybe you go first.
John Mayer Sure. I'm going to go with uh the SBGM239, which is the Hodinki uh limited edition. Um and I'm picking that, you know, I one, I, you know, it's it's very close to a watch that that I have and I love. And so that's you know, reason one. Uh reason two, it's uh the the pairing of this case with a bracelet was something that I thought was really fantastic. Uh I actually bought um, for what it's worth, uh a really nice beads of rice bracelet to go on my SBG 221 or uh SBGM221, which I'll be I'm looking really looking forward to wearing that this summer. Um and because it's a you know it's a in a price uh area that I think is very familiar for Grand Seco. And so it's something that I'm you know very comfortable with and uh that's you know probably my favorite from the last few years
Jack Forster . Ugh I want to white birch so badly. It's really it's just awful. It's I mean, first of all, it it''s gots got it it''ss got a new escape bed, it's a new movement design. I can, you know, nerd out on the mechanics at infinite and and have uh you know not only one has not stopped me from nerding out on it uh from a sort of you know gearhead perspective. I love the design. I love the dial. I love how it looks in pictures. I love how it looks in person. And there's a part of me that, you know, there's a part of me that feels that everybody who's serious about watches, really serious about watches, needs to own an omega watch with a coaxial escapement at some point just because of what it represents. And I kind of feel the same way about the 9SA5. You know, it's a great step forward and a very risky one for Grand Seco. Developing a new new movement technology costs a ton of money. And like why? You know, the lever escapement works fine. Um, but they did it, they did it for I think a lot of reasons, but they did it because they want to sort of just push the boundaries of what's possible and keep what they're doing interesting. And keeping what they do interesting, keeping what you do interesting is a big part of what makes to me a luxury watch manufacturer a fun thing to watch and makes their watches fun to own.
Stephen Pulvirent And I don't know I just I love the way it looks. I'm gonna go with the SBGA 413, which is from the time and date seasons collection, the previous seasons collection. It's the spring watch. It has this like super light pink dial uh inspired by the cherry blossoms, the Sakura. Uh it's got this like texture to it, uh almost like feathered texture. Uh the case is made of titanium. The case and bracelet are made of titanium. It's a case that's inspired by the old grammar of design cases, but it's it's not that. It's a new thing. It's got a spring drive movement in it. I think it's kind of like the best of approachable modern Grand Seiko. Uh you kind of get all the little things that only Grand Seiko does. Um it's 6300 bucks, which I think honestly is a really good price for this. Like this is one where honestly if this had been eighty three hundred dollars, I I don't think I would have blinked. Um I've come dangerously close to ordering one of these a couple of times. Um and yeah, I just think it's great. And I think the fact that Grand Seiko was like, you know what we're gonna do? We're gonna make a titanium watch with a pink dial and a movement that nobody really understands. Uh and we're gonna make it limited and we're gonna make it like a cool, desirable thing. Like good for them. You know, like that's a that's a for lack of a better word, like that's a ballsy move. Uh and I I like that. Uh I like that attitude and I like that they did it in a way that was really true to them. They didn't have to go outside the box uh too much to do it or kind of off the reservation to do it. Cool watch. Good looking, good looking dial too. I applaud the watch and I applaud that you were applauding the watch. Perfect. Uh I'm gonna ask now a slightly modified version of this question. And it is a different question and and and I think it'll come through in our answers hopefully. Um what do you think is the most aspirational Grand Seiko? Let's let's look now to the high end. It can be Creed or it can be the really, really high end, it can be a watch that's under $10,000. But what is the watch that if you were gonna show it to somebody and say, this is what Grand Sago can be. And it doesn't have to be from the last five years, but like this is why you should love this thing.
John Mayer What's the watch you show people? In that case, I I will say the Ichi2, because I think you you can't show someone that watch you certainly if you if you happen to have like a loop within arm's reach you can't show someone uh who knows a thing or two about watches uh in each e2 um without them coming away uh you know in some way impressed. I just don't think it's possible. Um, so that, but then in terms of like what I would what I would show like you know, a friend of mine who I think might actually be in the market for a new watch below ten thousand dollars, uh I think it is the I just want to make sure I get the reference number right, the SLGH003, which is just like a very it's a very clean, I would say conservatively styled classic Grand Seiko looking watch with the new high beat movement. And I think you know that combination of like a familiar aesthetic with a price below $10,000, uh, with that movement, with it, with like you know, the brand new movement that Jack has covered so well for us uh in so many recent articles, I think um that is that that's maybe the most compelling thing I think that they do for under 10 grand. In under 10, it just I think it's there's there's a huge like symbolic kind of um difference between anything that's less than ten and something that's more than ten. And I think for that reason uh I'll pick that one. Ye
Jack Forster ah. Oof. Most aspirational well speaking of Krator, let's talk about the Grand Sako Kintaro Hatori 160th Anniversary Limited Edition SBG Z 005. I was hoping you were going to talk about this while you were. I
Stephen Pulvirent was hoping we were going to get to talk about this watch
Jack Forster . Is this a watch? I mean it is absolutely everything that I love about Grand Seiko. It is also everything that is eyebrow raising about Grand Seiko right now. This is a 50-piece limited edition. It's $103,000. Time-only spring drive, beautifully finished movement, absolutely gorgeous, platinum case, all of that, but it costs $103,000. Now
Stephen Pulvirent . Now, I'm gonna ask you a question, Jack, right off the bat, before you get into this. For $103,000, since we are talking about price today, you could literally buy a time-only paddock, a time only Vacheron, and a time only Langa, and have money to spare before you'd get to this watch. You still picking this watch over those three
Jack Forster ? If I want a high-end if I want what this watch represents in a watch, you then yes, I would get this watch because those are three fantastic brands. I'm a huge Longa fana. Longa fana. That was incredible, Jack. I love that. Can we leave that in? I've actually I'm a gigantic Langa fan. There's a ton of stuff from Paddock that I like, both current and historical production. Ditto Vashron, Ditto Onma Piget. Those guys are who they are for a reason, but Grand Seiko is who it is for a reason. And beyond a certain point, I keep coming back to the point that you made earlier, Stephen, which is that these watches have a perspective. They represent something that you can't get somewhere else. And you can't you cannot find an equivalent to this particular watch in the way that you can find an equivalent to a beautiful, time only hand wound watch from those other manufacturers. What they have in common is they have, well, let me rephrase that. They have they have certain things in common, they have certain things, things that distinguish them, obviously. You know, a beautiful hand one uh watch from Longinsona is not the same as a beautiful hand one watch from paddock is not the same as one from API is not the same as one from Vachron, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But this particular watch and Grand Seko in general is so represents such a distinctive value proposition relative to what any other luxury watchmaker is doing, that I think beyond a certain point, the question is not, if you can afford it at all and you want it, the question is not, is it worth it? The question is do I want what this particular watch represents as an individual entity enough to spend what it takes, you know, to get one. And if you could afford it, I think the answer is yes. Yeah. Uh I should qualify that by the way by saying I I absolutely cannot afford it
Stephen Pulvirent . Okay. Good to good to know, Jack. But it doesn't affect it doesn't offend me that it's there, and I think it's absolutely breathtaking. Yeah. I I mean I was gonna say like this this watch is close. Uh I was gonna say the Ichi2, uh, you know, along with John. Uh and I think, you know, John already already nailed all the reasons why. I think for me, what we've kind of settled on here is like a hand finished spr high end spring drive watch is maybe the most aspirational Grand Seco, you know? Uh and I think that's not surprising. It's it's and specifically high-end hand-finished spring drive watches with beautiful artisanally handmade dials, right? Like those two things seem essential to what Grand Seiko can be at its best. Uh and and I think that's not at all surprising. Um All right, the last rapid fire question. All right, two more questions and and that's that's it. Uh for you, what is the most attractive price point for Grand Seiko? Like where do you get most excited to see Grand Seiko playing? Uh it can be a range, uh you know, no no uh no hard and fast rules here, but you know what what what is the range in which you get most excited to see Grind Seiko working? John, maybe you can go first. Um Yeah, I mean for me for me
John Mayer personally as a as a potential consumer, I think you know, three to six thousand dollars uh feels like where things are are possible in in in in with Grand Seiko, there's still a lot there uh in that price segment to be excited about. So I'll I'll I'll settle on that. Yeah on that range. Gre
Jack Forster at. Jack? Yeah, I'm kind of with John on this one, although I would put the top end a little bit higher because I would want to be able to include steel watches with the 9SA5 high beat, you know, the new high beat movement in them as well. I love the higher end stuff. I think it's wonderful that it exists. I love seeing it. I think that they are beautiful objects, but I kind of feel the same way that uh about those that I do about the uh Ichi 1 and Ichi 2. It's uh there's there's such, you know, kind of singular objects that require so much um um of a particular kind of effort that stands apart from making series produced watches as a kind of general practice that I tend to look at you know, what's going on in the somewhat more accessible price points in order to uh find the most per sort of the most personal excitement. Ye
Stephen Pulvirent ah. Yeah, I'm gonna kind of like in a funny way go right in between you guys. Like I I think Grand Seco right now is probably most exciting for me in the like four to eight thousand range. Like watches where no matter what country you're in after taxes they're under the equivalent of ten thousand US, you know, you you don't end up with those that extra zero on the end that freaks freaks some people out. Um but like Jack said allows room for some of the newer movements to be used. Um but is also at a price point to John's point where like if you're getting your first quote unquote nice watch, uh these still kind of can compete against the other watches you might be considering and hopefully present a little something special. Um All right, last question. It's a very open-ended question. Answer it however you would like, uh, preferably semi-briefly, um, just because we're running way over here. How grand should Grand Seiko be? Let's return to our original premise here. For you, how grand should Grand Seiko be? John
John Mayer ? Uh I think Grand Seiko should be pretty grand. I think Grand Seiko should be as grand as it as it wants to be as a brand. Uh but I think it should be pretty pretty grand because it's uh uh you know at at its highest end, it's as it's as nice as any as anything made anywhere um in terms of in terms of watches, you know? Uh it's a uh a really nicely made spring drive hand finished watch with uh you know a beautiful dial uh from from Grand Seco is as good as anything out there, so it should be pretty pretty grand
Jack Forster . Jack, how about you? Yeah, I'm with John on that. I think that they should be I think they should be as brand as they are. And they make uh they make fantastic watches if somebody came to me and said try to put my finger on this if somebody somebody came to me and said listen I've been saving up for a while I've got say five to eight thousand bucks to spend. I want to buy one really, really good watch that is going to be a source of joy, not a source of regret the longer I own it. And that is going to be a source of is going to be a source of happiness for me, I would still feel really, really comfortable recommending several Grand Secos that I can think of. And you know, to me, that's one of the things that makes Grand Seiko stand out. They feel like they still come from a somewhat lost world where you would save up, you would get one good watch, and you would wear it for the rest of your life. Yes. Well, really well put.
Stephen Pulvirent Yeah. I'm I'm gonna agree with you guys. You both beat me to it. The the thing I wanted to say was Grand Seiko should be as grand as it damn well wants to be. Uh I I think you know, we can we can sit and say like okay, the average price of a new product is maybe twenty percent, thirty percent more than it was a couple years ago. But, you know, we've talked about it here. I think the watches stand up to that. And I think at the high end they're doing some of the most exciting things. Um, especially for somebody who enjoys watches that are are high-end in in deceptively simple ways. Uh I think there's almost nobody doing it better. Uh and and the only caveat I would say is like Grand Seiko, be as grand as you damn well want, but like please, please don't forget about us, you know, the people who who loved the watches when they were three thousand dollars, four thousand dollars. Uh just make sure that we're still excited when they're eight thousand dollars or nine thousand dollars, uh, or forty thousand dollars. As long as they still like kind of make my heart race a little bit and make me feel like I'm a part of something special and fun and different, like sky's sky's the limit here.
John Mayer I'll just be a a grand seco cheerleader really quick here. I I I don't don't I don't see that happening and they I don't think they have uh forgotten about us. You know, I'm looking at the watch on my wrist, like and it's it's it, you know, it's like Jack said, it's a forty-six hundred dollar watch, but it to me ticks all the boxes of a Grand Seiko. And you could even go a little bit lower in price and those boxes will still be ticked. I'm just thinking about when we did a a three on three with a 37 millimeter automatic time and date from Grand Seiko. And my feeling coming away from, you know, wearing that watch for a little bit of time was that it gave you it gave you or certainly it gave me all the things that I thought were important uh uh to have in a Grand Seiko. They were there. So, you know, you don't have to spend a ton of money with them to get to get a really nice watch.
Stephen Pulvirent Absolutely. And if you're willing to spend a little more money, you can get something pretty pretty exceptional. Like it it it keeps leveling up as the prices level up. Awesome. Well, thank you guys so much for having this conversation. I mean, you guys know I'm always up to like hang out and talk about Grand Seco. Like that's that's what we end up doing, you know, over beers anyway. Uh but uh yeah I I think this was was a good chat and I I appreciate all of your uh sage sage advice and wisdom here. Thank you Steve. Yeah for sure. Awesome. Thanks, guys.