Photographer And Pilot Evan Robinson (Plus, Why All Watches Should be Unisex)¶
Published on Mon, 15 Feb 2021 11:00:00 +0000
A chat with a talented creator and collector of fine things. Plus, more on a recent thought-provoking column that got the watch internet talking.
Synopsis¶
This episode of Hodinkee Radio features a two-part conversation exploring different facets of watch collecting and culture. In the first segment, host Stephen Pulvirent interviews photographer and pilot Evan Robinson, who was previously featured in Hodinkee's "Pilot's Journey" video series with IWC. Robinson discusses his deep connection to aviation through his grandfather, his rapid journey to becoming a licensed pilot, and how he combines his passions for flying and photography. He speaks eloquently about the relationship between tools and their users, whether cameras, planes, or watches, emphasizing the importance of being a "custodian" of well-engineered mechanical objects. Robinson shares his philosophy of buying quality items once and forming lasting relationships with them, from his Leica cameras to his Phase One photography system to his watch collection, which includes pieces from IWC and a Patek Philippe Aquanaut 5167 he purchased for his wedding.
In the second segment, Pulvirent speaks with Hodinkee's Cara Barrett about her recent column titled "All Watches Should Be Unisex and Here's Why," which generated significant discussion in the watch community. Barrett clarifies that her main argument isn't about eliminating labels, but rather about how watch brands communicate with women consumers. She critiques the outdated marketing approaches that show women as objects to be looked at rather than as active participants in the hobby, contrasting this with men's watch advertising that features first-person perspectives of adventure and achievement. The conversation addresses the broader cultural issues within watch enthusiasm, including gatekeeping and elitism that can make newcomers, particularly women, feel unwelcome. Both Pulvirent and Barrett emphasize that watches should be an inclusive hobby where everyone feels welcome to participate and enjoy regardless of gender, and they call for the industry to evolve its approach to speaking with diverse consumers.
Links¶
Transcript¶
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| Evan Robinson | If you can really listen to your tools, right? If if you really pay attention, they will tell you if they're in good shape or not. They will give you feedback. And you know, in the plane, that might be a slightly different vibration. When I'm winding a watch, it might be that I can feel just a little catch that didn't be there from like uh to my airplane to my favorite watches. All these things are gonna outlive me. And so I'm just a custodian of these fantastically engineered mechanical devices. And I wanna be the best custodian that I can possibly be |
| Stephen Pulvirent | Hey everybody, I'm your host Stephen Polverin and this is Hodinky Radio. This week we've got an awesome doubleheader for you. I'm super excited about it. Up first is my conversation with photographer and pilot Evan Robinson, who you might remember from the pilot's journey video series we created with IWC back in 2019. While Evan's day job is creating incredible photographs and films for a wide variety of brands and clients, he's a passionate aviator who also always has a camera with him in the cockpit. That he's a watch lover from a family of watch lovers only makes him an even better fit for this show and someone I'm always happy to connect with. We get into how he became a pilot, why the toughest flying often results in the best photos, and how the definition of a tool watch might need to be expanded a little bit. After that, Kara joins me to discuss the column she recently wrote for the site, arguing that all watches should be unisex. It elicited a ton of feedback from the Hodinki community, from other folks in the watch media, and from the industry itself, and we address a lot of those questions and issues directly. If you're interested in watches in any capacity, this is really important stuff, and I appreciate CAR coming on the show to give us a more in-depth look at our column and where we can go from here. So without further ado, let's do this. Hey man, how's it going? It's going well. Glad we're uh finally getting to catch up, especially now that you've been West Coast for a little while. It's overdue. I know it is. It's uh it's crazy. We're like not that far from each other, but uh co COVID reality is that that doesn't matter much, right? No, we're still uh world department. I'm glad that we uh have a few ways to still keep in touch now. Yeah, same. Uh what what have you been up to? I mean I guess like I ask everybody this question these days, but like it's been almost a year now. Like what your your your world is about getting out into the world. So like what what have you been doing |
| Evan Robinson | ? You know, we were pretty fortunate that early on in this uh we ended up finding a dream house that had a new studio for me to remodel. And so sticking around has been a little blessing in disguise. So we did a new house, a new puppy, a new studio, and some exciting projects kind of trickled throughout. So what we expected to be a little bit of a reset year actually was really full steam ahead. That's amazing, man. That's uh new new house, new studio, new puppy might be like the perfect trifecta. Yeah, it it's keeping us busy and you know, it really makes you wanna stick around, which is great, right? We're we're uh watching more movies than we used to, and that's kind of our version of travel. But otherwise, you know, it is pretty thrilling to watch our pup develop to try and implement the things I wanted for a long time in a space that I could shoot and create. And uh the fact that that space is also now the safest place for me to work is kind of a wonderful |
| Stephen Pulvirent | thing. Yeah, that's true. Um yeah, I mean you've you've still been getting out there though a little bit. And I mean being able to fly your own plane definitely, uh definitely helps on that front. But uh if I was if I was seeing what I thought I was seeing, you took a hell of a trip uh this past week |
| Evan Robinson | . Yeah, what I I think most good adventures start with a kind of simple premise. And this one was uh I had a friend that got a new airplane and he wanted to safely retrieve it. And we thought that that would be uh a nice little couple day journey. Uh what we didn't consider is that we were trying to fly a fabric airplane across fourteen thousand foot mountains in the middle of winter, and that it might get a little snowy. Uh so we really ended up with uh a total adventure, met some great people along the way who helped us eventually make it from California up to Jackson Hole, Wyoming, and then all the way down to the uh Florida-Alabama border. Um, so we loved it and uh it was a nice little break from work, but uh we bit off a little more than we could chew at the beginning of that one |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . How I I mean, how many days did it take you to get from the LA area through the Jackson area and then out to to Florida basically. Yeah. So really |
| Evan Robinson | it's getting from LA up to past the Salt Lake area. We ended up with a big weather system that was kind of our our stopping point. So one day from LA up to uh kind of Salt Lake area, the next day up to Jackson Hole. After that was actually smooth sailing, we made it all the way to uh the Florida area just in another day. Okay. Okay. Amazing. And then you you had to do all of that in reverse? So in reverse, it ended up being a little bit quicker because we had a new plane to fly. So we Which certainly helped things. But yeah, on the way back, uh we had great weather and I ended up spending almost 11 hours airborne in a single day, my first day doing over a thousand miles in our little plane. So it it was really nice and very meditative activity. |
| Stephen Pulvirent | Yeah, that's pretty incredible. I mean that also must be in a certain way like kind of exhausting to be like keyed in at that level for eleven hours |
| Evan Robinson | You know, it seems like it would, but it was a a trip that ended up having a lot more training than I expected. So um what I got the chance to do was to fly the same type of airplane and get trained in it that my grandfather used to fly. So the plane that I first was in when I was a three-month-old baby, uh, I got to take a check write in, getting a certification to be able to fly that on what would have been my grandfather's 90th birthday and to spend eleven hours flying home after that kind of digesting it and thinking about the entire process, both trying to really internalize the training, but also, you know, it it was an emotional thing to do. So coming back, it wasn't tiring. I actually woke up the next day at 6 30 in the morning energized as ever. It was a a really great process |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . That's so awesome. I absolutely love that. Um well I mean we we first met through your your love of aviation and through your flying because uh you were featured in our our series that we did with IWC, The Pilot's Journey, back in uh I guess what, late twenty nineteen? Uh which feels like a million years ago. Oh feels like a completely different universe from the one we live in now. But uh yeah, I mean you you worked super closely with Gray and and our production team on that project. And I I wonder kind of like, do you remember how we like first got in touch with you and how that whole thing kicked off? Kind of how you got roped into our uh our funny little world here. Uh I'll never forget receiving the email because |
| Evan Robinson | I thought it was a mistake. I was so confused. I it didn't make sense to me because I'm always the one behind the camera that, somebody would want me in front of the camera. so And I started to figure out like, okay, here's how we can treat this thing like, no, no, no, no. Turn this around, you're on the other side. Yeah. Um and they reached out to me because I had recently done an interview with a backcountry aviation magazine talking about how I love to fly and take photographs. Um, which you know is a kind of niche thing to do. There are a lot of people that do aerials, but most of the time it's with a helicopter or if they're shooting, they're in the back of the plane, they're not the one flying. Uh and so I guess that ended up being uh fortunately pretty high up on the Google search results. If you looked at Backcountry Pilot, there I was and so linked up with Gray and the team and uh had an absol |
| Stephen Pulvirent | ute blast working with everybody on it. Yeah. It's funny. I mean, I re-watched the video two or three times as I was I was prepping to have this chat today. And you know, also as somebody who like kind of moves between being in front of the camera and being behind the camera, as I'm watching the video, like part of me is is caught up in the emotional story, and part of me can't help but be like, Oh, this shot required three airplanes. Like, like the the technical side of this shoot is just like something that like I it has not gotten old for me. Like as I watch it, I'm just like, oh, this is this is crazy. And like I know that your ideas and like you being able to collaborate with Gray and Sam and our production team like really helped that like for them I think it was fun working with somebody who like had an awareness of those sorts of things. I wonder if it was kind of the same for you. Like was it fun to be able to be on the other side but also like have that knowledge of what the production was gonna be like |
| Evan Robinson | ? You know, I think that a huge part of what made it comfortable to be in front of the camera was that it was a really complex aerial shoot. And so it really just felt like I was doing what I would normally do. I was coordinating with other pilots and then I love telling stories. And so then I get to work with Gray and with Sam. We're just talking about okay, what's gonna make this story uh come across in the most interesting way? How can we really you know bring people into it? And it it was one of the most fun shoots I've ever done because of that. We just had such a blast, and uh there are a lot of times when you kind of walk away from set and everyone says, Yeah, you know, stay in touch. And this is one of the only careers where pretty much everybody we still talk on a weekly basis, which I think really speaks to how well we all got along on it |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . That's awesome. Uh I mean I I do want to talk about the like emotional content of the shoot as well. And like your your entree into aviation, and you already mentioned it a little bit is was your grandfather, right? So like you've been around aviation your whole life, right |
| Evan Robinson | ? Yeah. So my grandfather uh kind of was in the heyday of general aviation. There was a time in the 70s and eighties when we reached the peak of uh private pilots in the US and he was one of those guys. And he lived in central California in, an area where you know if you wanted to drive by car to the next town, it might be an hour, an hour and 15 minutes. And if you want to go by plane, it could be 15 minutes. And so he was in this demographic where there was a huge utility to having your own personal airplane. It wasn't some luxury item. It really changed the way that he could do business and his friends could do business. Uh but of course, once he already have the plane, then it also changes how you can have fun. And so taking his friends on fishing trips up to Alaska and going into the backcountry is also something that he really enjoyed doing. So when I was growing up, I thought that it was pretty normal to hop on the plane and go to Mexico for lunch. I didn't realize that that wasn't something that everybody did. Of course I finally Yeah, then you know you go to school, you figure out that that's not the norm, especially you know, living in uh southern California because it's, you know, a city where we have a big commercial airport and nobody else had airplanes. And so that awareness came and grew up, moved to the east coast. It wasn't a very practical thing to do. But it was always an itch that I wanted to scratch. And uh so I was really thrilled when I finally got the chance to do it a few summers ago |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . And when you did it, I mean one of my favorite things about this and one of the things that that speaks to me the most personally is like you went zero to a hundred basically instantly. Like you you were like, I'm doing this and you went super hard, right |
| Evan Robinson | ? Yeah, my thought was that if you're gonna be safe and do it, you really don't want to be one foot in and one foot out. And so I went from never having flown an airplane to having my license in about forty five days. And the national average, I think, is seven months. Okay. And another 45 days after that, I bought an airplane and started putting on about as much time as a like a ferry operator would. About two or three hundred hours every year. And I believe the average is 35 hours for a private pilot. So was roughly trying to 10x the speed on everything. And I just felt safer for it. And it was also so much fun. You just get into it and it's like I want to do this again. Okay. Well then wake up earlier, do it twice a day |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . That was kind of how it started. That's I mean, the the safety thing is is something we'll touch on that a little a little bit as well. Like I want to kind of talk about that in relation to some of your other your other hobbies that are similar to aviation in some ways, the safety thing being the big difference. But uh like as you're you're ramping up here, like okay, it's 45 days between never flying and getting your your license, you know, like at what point do you start to be like, oh, like I can do this, and this can be safe. Like at what point does that initial jitter go away? Or did did you just not have any of those initial jitters |
| Evan Robinson | ? I think that as a pilot, you always, in order to be safe, you have to have a little of that jitter. And I don't think it should really ever go away because we're always planning for outs. The thing about flying is that it's really quite easy when everything is going well. All of the preparation is so that you have chosen ahead of time the exact course of action you are going to take in the event of a failure, because you don't have time to think when that adrenaline starts hitting you. You're not going to make a good choice. And so the training is there so that you're not making choices in the event of an emergency, you're executing unknown procedures. So there's always a little bit of that there, but I would say that after you take um there's this really exciting moment when your instructor finally tells you that you're supposed to do what's called a solo cross-country. And that means you're not going to be flying around this home airport that you've known that you've practiced taking off at landing at, it's time for you to go by yourself in the airplane and fly somewhere. And that could be hundreds of miles away to airspace you've never encountered before. And that's one of the really important steps in making sure that you're going to be a safe pilot. And I was able to time my solar cross-country for the solar eclipse. And ended up yeah. So you know, again, it's one of those, you just get a perfect day and then everything starts to feel calm and comfortable in in a whole new way. And so it was one of the most stunning flights I've ever gotten to take. And you know, flew up to Duluth, Minnesota. And unfortunately I couldn't fly to the total eclipse because of how far that would have taken me from my training ground. But I still got to see the partial and and had a blast doing it. And after that I felt like, all right, you know, I certainly have a lot more to learn, but at least now I can safely continue to learn on my own as opposed to needing to always have somebody in the right seat next to me. That's w |
| Stephen Pulvirent | ild. Uh I love that you've been able to kind of like mark your flying career in in quotes here. Like your flying journey has been able to be marked with these like concurrent milestones of like other things in the world, whether they're personal or something like the eclipse, that's that's kinda like a cool way to be able to mark those those important moments |
| Evan Robinson | . It's one of the things that I think right it could be any hobby that you have or any thing that you know a collector looks to have, but I find that those milestone moments, it's you usually want to engage with your favorite parts of life during those or around those times. And so for me, since aviation has become such a big part of my life, it's kind of a natural thing that if there's a a special day, usually I want to be flying on it. |
| Stephen Pulvirent | I I I also love, you know, watching this video back, uh one of the quotes that really stood out to me is the airplane is a tool and there's beauty in its function when it's in its preferred environment, in the dirt and the grass, thousands of miles away from anybody else. And this idea of a beautiful tool is really interesting to me. And as somebody who loves watches and cameras as well, which I know you also do, uh, like that that's just a really like beautiful thing. It really resonates with me. And I wonder where that sort of came from in your mind |
| Evan Robinson | . I think that it comes from a real love of simple and effective mechanics. I think that, you know, I I've made a living um holding something in my hand, right? I I sometimes really jealous of the folks that can uh, you know, I suppose a writer does hold the pen, but effectively right now it's typing,. You know it's not the same thing, right? If you are only working with your mind, I think there's a different type of engagement with tools, but when you have an entire career and a livelihood based off of an interaction with a tool, it's important to just skyrockets. And so, you know, my appreciation began when I was in high school and I bought my first Leica film camera. And that was something that I had been wanting for such a long time. And I remember when I finally held it, I just thought, this is going to change what I create. It's not that I'm going to shoot a different type of film in here than I was shooting a day ago, but I will feel different using this. I will be more thoughtful, I will be more respectful of the subject, I'm going to take more time, and I know that because of that, I can create something better. And so I think from the Leica into getting an aircraft and starting to understand that, you know, the more that I flew it, the more carefully I maintained it, the better care it would take of me. And that was gonna be really a rewarding thing to try and embrace.. |
| Stephen Pulvirent | Yeah And that taking that taking care is is something that I want I want to stick on for a moment. You know, it's it's you take care of your tools and your tools take care of you. Like it really is this sort of symbiotic relationship, and I'm I'm talking about this now from a photography standpoint in my own life, but uh you know, for you again, going back to this trip you just took, like I saw that when you were up up in the the Jackson area, like the plane iced over and you had to figure out how to defrost it and like save the airplane, right? Like, and you need to save it for its own sake, but you also need to save it because like it needs to be safe for you to fly. Like it needs to take care of you. And that that sort of like two-way give and take with with an object is like a weirdly special thing in a lot of ways and a thing that I think you're right, like people who need these things for their livelihoods or or who make them a big part of their lives, understand and otherwise it can be like I I think maybe a bit confusing to people |
| Evan Robinson | . There's something about the way which to an outside party can make you seem a little crazy, but if you can really listen to your tools, right? If if you really pay attention, they will tell you if they're in good shape or not. They will give you feedback. And you know, in the plane, that might be a slightly different vibration. When I'm winding a watch, it might be that I can feel just a little catch that didn't used to be there. But I think if we take the time to listen to the tools, we're both living more in the moment, which makes us happier, but we're also then able to use the tools longer and keep them in better shape and then hopefully pass them on to the next generation. Cause I mean, from my Leica to my airplane to my favorite watches, all these things are gonna outlive me. And so I'm just a custodian of these fantastically engineered mechanical devices. And I want to be the best custodian that I can possibly be |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . Yeah. I couldn't could not agree more. Um and and while we're while we're talking about, you know, kind of the relationship between cameras and watches and and aviation, um, I mean, like at what point when you were flying or was it before you even got your license, did you realize that like, oh, like this and my love of photography can can meet, like these two things can can kind of feed off of one another instead of being separate. I had no |
| Evan Robinson | thought of combining photo and flight until I was far into the process. I think that when you fly commercial, you're so far up in the sky, that you really don't get a sense for the rich views that happen just one or two thousand feet up. And this is part of why you know drone photography starts to get popular, right? But you start to see these patterns that are really interesting at low altitude. Um and when I got further into my career as a private pilot, I realized that there are these mid-altitudes, maybe five thousand feet up, that nobody else was traveling at. And the views there were stunning. And at first I, you know, would take an iPhone shot or two, or maybe I take a quick Leica shot. then And over time as I got more comfortable and got to know my airplane, I felt that it was okay for me to start bringing in a real camera and actually shooting out the side of the plane because I was getting inspired by the things I was seeing and I wanted to take that back and use it as reference for commercial shoots I was doing because there were patterns that you can see from the sky that I don't know how else you would ever dream this stuff up. So over time it was really a slow growth and ended up kind of shifting how often I was able to fly because then it became intertwined with my work and all of a sudden it made a lot of sense for me in the afternoon if I needed to go take a reset or figure out how to solve a creative brief to go fly and bring the camera with me |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . And and that that gets us to to your career. Correct. That's what pays for the airplane bills. Okay. Perfect. And so how has that career evolved? Like how how did you end up? I mean, you mentioned that you you bought a Leica in high school, so presumably you were, you know, already uh interested in photography by that point. But what's what's your sort of parallel photo journey that's kind of been simmering alongside this flight journey? |
| Evan Robinson | Yeah, the Leica was something that I bought just for the love of a beautiful mechanical object, but never uh with the intention of becoming a photographer or a director. Um, I was surrounded by people starting businesses when I went to college. I was pre-med and studying economics, and I always thought that the world of film and photo was a great thing to do on the side. And so I did it on the side. I figured it paid much better than flipping burgers. And so I started a little photo booth business when I was in high school. And that gave me enough cash to start to acquire more camera gear. And before I knew it, by the end of college, I was shooting so actively that I didn't have time to recruit for a job. And so it was really just a career that happened to me. I had no longstanding belief that that was my one true calling. But I really loved telling stories and I loved working with people that made interesting products. I'm a huge fan of great product design. And it just turned out that because of the beginner's mindset I could get into when I had to learn a new industry each time that I would do a photo shoot, that was more engaging to me than sticking with one industry and going integral to a company and helping them uh run things. H |
| Stephen Pulvirent | mm. And and how would you describe the type of photography you do since it's, you know, being a quote unquote photographer for a living is a pretty pretty broad uh broad broad thing. So if uh what what would you describe as your sort of like subdiscipline |
| Evan Robinson | ? Yeah I so I I unfortunately am don't have a subdiscipline because I'm so intentionally broad in what I do. Yesterday I was shooting an ad campaign for a health foods company focused on coffee. Next week I'm gonna be working with the a few chefs directing you know five to six minute documentary features. The work that I do is usually going to be with a brand that needs to tell a story and hasn't told stories in the past. What I love is helping people understand who've done more work on the product side of things and the brand side of things, how to grow to that next stage. And that's kind of the world that I live in. But it could be across any number of products or disciplines. Okay |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . Okay. And and the sort of photography you do uh professionally is is mostly in a studio. It's pretty like contained. It's about controlling the environment. It's about getting everything dialed in pretty precisely, right? That's a that's a fair characterization. Absolutely fair. Uh and then the photography you're doing from the plane is like kind of the opposite. Like you have no control. You're you have no control over the I mean like yes, you can approach from different angles to get the best sunlight. Like you can you can do all the things that a photographer is always doing if they're paying attention when they're making pictures, but like you're you're not bringing strobes, you're not telling the mountain where to stand, right? |
| Evan Robinson | Very true. And it's part of why before I did aerial work, I I' nedver been as interested in the landscape world of shooting because I loved the control that came from a studio. But what kind of morphed as soon as I got into shooting out of the side of an airplane was that I realized there's a big similarity in that commercial studio work, which is quite precise, and the aerial work, which is precise in its own way, because they're both about preparation. And so for the aerial work, it's all about precision in the way that I fly the airplane. And that's where the training and kind of the pre-production comes in. Versus in the studio work, it's all about bringing together a really good crew, making sure that everyone has agreed on storyboards and that we really love what we're going to try and tell. But at the end of the day, with both of them, it's preparation so that in the moment, you can throw all the plans out the window and just find the beautiful thing. And that's why they feel quite similar at the end of the day. I'm equally exhausted and equally in love with what I get to do. That |
| Stephen Pulvirent | 's awesome. I I I love that. I love this idea of whether it's in photography, shooting while you're flying, just flying, of like you you prepare so that in the moment you can kind of ignore what you prepared for, but then it's there in case you need it. Um that's that's a really nice way to approach things. Uh and honestly, I'll be totally honest with you, that is kind of how I approach interviews. Like, you know, it's, it's, I can do all the prep I want in the world and I can write a million questions, but like once I get talking to somebody, like I'm not going to read a sheet of questions. Like, that's going to be a terrible interview. It's going to be boring for me. It's going to be boring for you. The audience is going to be like, why am I listening to this? This is super weird. Nobody talks like this. Um, but I think that's kind of like a good, a good lesson in general in life. Like it kinda I don't know. It just feels like it's something that speaks to me a little a little more broadly |
| Evan Robinson | . But when I work with subjects, it's the things that you can't find online because the things that so few people have in common, and it's those little sparks that are so exciting. And that's usually where the magic happens. It's like, oh wait, you love monkey47 Gin. Like you're one of five people that I've talked to that love it, right? You like find these little niches and that's where the joy is because then you've got a real human connection as opposed to what a lot of commercial work can look like, which is kind of stayed and like you're trying to fit within a box. But yeah. Most of us don't. Yeah. No, that's very tru |
| Stephen Pulvirent | e. I mean you also talk about the you you mentioned going flying as a as a break, right? Like you'll you'll be working on a job and you'll need to kind of like creatively recharge or work through a problem and that like getting up in the air helps helps you with that. And I wonder, is there a way in which you're you're flying and your commercial photography, or your commercial photography and your uh aviation photography, like, is there a way in which you think they they kind of play off of one another? One feeds the other. Something you learn on one side can then be applied to the other |
| Evan Robinson | ? Absolutely. I think that I'm not great at meditating. And part of that is because I really stopped meditating once I started flying. There's that level of focus and it's this kind of calm focus, right? Because again, as long as nothing's going wrong, you can really be pretty relaxed, but you can never actually let your guard down entirely. At that point, you'd be unsafe. So when I go up and fly, a lot of the time as I am in thought about the plane, that's when the most beautiful scene comes up. And I haven't thought about whatever the job is back at home and I'm in that moment and I see that scene and then there's going to be something about the light that I never would have thought to have created because I'm flying and there's a cloud that just happened to appear and that light hitting the tree I see what it does and I think, okay, that's the way to solve this.. It's a light problem Other times I'll see a pattern on the ground and say, oh, that's the way that we need to solve this one. It's a different prompt styling direction. So the information, all credit to aviation, it usually goes from aviation to commercial. It doesn't really go back the other way quite as often. Um but I I do credit Plane for doing that. And sometimes in much subtler ways where I'll go up and I won't think that anything has changed about how I'm about to solve a problem. And when I land to sit back down at the computer, sure enough, it takes ten minutes and we figured out how to you know complete the brief and get something together that everyone's a bit more excited about. |
| Stephen Pulvirent | Yeah. That's awesome. Uh are are there any I'm I'm not asking about like harrowing stories, but are there have there been any times where you're you're up in the plane and you're shooting, and all of a sudden there's like a tension between the photography and the flying. Whether it's a shot that you you can visualize and you really want to get it, but you're like not totally sure it's a safe move in the plane or whether it's you know you're trying to fly but like the photography is taking you in a different direction |
| Evan Robinson | . Some of the most beautiful landscapes happen when the earth is a little angry and the clouds are a little bigger. So there are often days that I am hitting my head so hard against the dang ceiling of the plane in turbulence that all I want to do is go down and the light is perfect, and there are these puffy clouds, and there's nothing more that I want to do than stay up and keep on shooting. Um, so that is a not too uncommon occurrence. Same thing, this last adventure I had. It was beautiful to see what the Tetons look like in the middle of winter. And it was a heck of a lot harder to fly there than it would have been in summer. So there's certainly a push-pull between some of the most beautiful weather moments also being ones where you've really got to be aware of what the outs are that you have and and what the consequences would be if the weather continued to deteriorate. Yeah that makes that that that makes total |
| Stephen Pulvirent | sense. All right the last the last thing I want to ask you about you know before we we talk a little bit about watches, because I think our audience would be kind of mad at me if we didn't do that a little bit. But uh, you know, you and I could probably talk cameras all day. But you've you've mentioned Leica, and I think that's something a lot of folks listening have familiarity with, but uh you also are a big proponent of the phase one camera system and I wonder if you can just quickly tell us like w how you got into shooting with phase and why that's kind of your like tool of choice most most of the time |
| Evan Robinson | . Phase one is one of the largest, clunkiest, and slowest cameras ever made. And I'm so madly in love with it, I wouldn't trade it for anything. If you kind of imagine, right, the the old Hasselbla Mamiya medium format cameras that were the standard for so many decades, FaZe tried to bring that level of quality into the digital world. And in doing that, they examined color science more carefully than any other manufacturer has. And so I can get things out of a file shot on my phase one that I couldn't get out of any other camera in the world. And because of that, I have an ability to create unique images, at least I hope, at least I hope my clients find that value. And that's thrilling to me because I photography at the end of the day, it's playing with light color and pattern, and I'm able to manipulate light and color more powerfully with that system than I could with any other system. So coincidentally, I ended up getting my phase right about the same time that I got the airplane. And it was because I was kind of disinflection point when I was trying to figure out what the next step in the career was going to be for me. Um I had a snowboarding accident. I was holed up for almost eight weeks, bedridden and really thinking about what do I want to do next, because that was a time that I had to sit and think instead of go out and just continue to run. And I realized that instead of kind of continuing at a mid-level commercial work, I really wanted to aim for the highest quality work in the world. And as I examined what was going on in behind the scenes photos and videos of the biggest ad campaigns, I realized that a lot of people were using this camera and they were creating things I'd never been able to create. And I thought, well, the tool might be part of the answer. So let's go get the tool. |
| Stephen Pulvirent | Yeah., that's awesome I mean, I've I've shot phase one a little bit and it is uh it is a totally different experience. It's a wild thing. I would say anyone who's listening who is interested in photography and is not familiar with those cameras, uh go go check them out and try to get your hands on one for a little while. It's a pr pretty wild experience |
| Evan Robinson | . Yeah, it's a real eye-opener. I think especially folks that enjoy cinema. The phase is the only camera that has a dynamic range similar to an Aria Lexa or a Red or really all the things that Hollywood uses for future films. And there's something that you can do in film with shadow and depth of light that most self photographers can't do. And the phase kind of lets you tap into that world. And so it's a pretty exciting thing to get your hands on that and start to see how far you can push it. |
| Stephen Pulvirent | Well, I love that, but I think I think we gotta talk about watches a little bit. Uh I I could legitimately sit here and talk to you about stops of dynamic range for the next 45 minutes and Gray would have to cut every bit of it and would kill me in production, but uh in post but um you know I s I I mentioned that you know we first got to know each other through this IWC project and um you know one of your watches well I guess two of your watches are featured in that um you know, a modern big pilot, uh, and then a vintage IWC that was your father's. Uh and I think those two watches side by side are a really interesting pair and sort of two really interesting takes on what like a quote unquote like tool watch can be |
| Evan Robinson | . Yeah, my dad's watch was something that he spent years and years looking for, and I absolutely adore it. I wish that IWC would actually reissue it. And for him, it's the perfect tool watch because he's a federal prosecutor and he wanted a watch that he would absolutely love to wear every day that would give him, you know, the reverence for a beautiful piece of design uh whenever he looked down on it. But at the same time he,'s prosecuting people for fraud on a regular basis and he didn't want to show up with a big blingy watch as he's telling people why are these stolen from the US government. So for him, you know, the need of a tool was quite different than for me as a pilot where legibility is paramount. I need to be able to quickly look down and make sure that I'm you know switching fuel tanks at the right time or that I know what my ETA is to a destination. And so I need a big-faced watch that allows me to instantly know what I'm going to do. And as you saw,' sometimes were flying in the middle of winter. I also need to be able to operate the ground if it's a little windy out and I've got gloves on. Yeah. So our tools are quite different because our offices are quite different. Um but you know I I adore both of the watches and they hold a special place in both of our hearts. That's awesome. |
| Stephen Pulvirent | Is is how how does the rest of your sort of watch collection and also just your like enthusiasm for watches manifest? Like where where are your other sort of horological loves |
| Evan Robinson | ? So I I think you picked up on one of my habits pretty early on in this, which is marking events with either something like a flight or uh with a purchase. And so my other the heaviest rotation watch is a Patek 5167. And I got that when my wife and I were married. And I adore it. It is the easiest wearing watch that I've ever had. And it's stunning. I mean, I I w one of those things where when I got it, um it it was not nearly as popular as it's become. And uh she wears a calatrava as her daily wear, and I had thought about getting one as well so that we'd be kind of matching, and I realized that I lead a more active lifestyle. And so having a rubber band stainless watch was of huge appeal. Um, and the problem with getting that so early on in my watch appreciation is that it really makes it hard for me to find other things that I want to buy to boot that out of the lineup. Cause I love wearing it every day. |
| Stephen Pulvirent | Yeah. It's it's tough. I mean like I I've I've encountered this as well. Like when you find a watch you really connect with it like it almost like overshadows everything else and you have to like find excuses to appreciate the other things because this one thing just kind of like takes up so much uh like intellectual and emotional space but you you know you want to get past it but, you also kind of kind of don't |
| Evan Robinson | . Oh, and it it's so funny too, because I'm uh going along the lines of loving a good tool, I love tool watches, and all I want is to have my favorite watch have a rotating bezel. Like I'm just dying for that to be the case. But every time that I try something out, I borrow it from a friend, it just doesn't compare to the connection that I have with my aqua. And so then I end up wearing it again and missing it when I'm not. So that that's the conundrum I've been in for a while, although I will admit I I've gotten really close a few times to pulling the trigger on a supercompressor. Um there 'cause I I think the next step for me in the watch journey is going the way that my father did and and getting a something vintage. Both of the watches that I well, all three that I wear most often I also wear a Seiko prospects, which is just great for the times when we're in the rough and tumble areas and don't want to worry about digging anything up, but still want like a really solid watch. Um but I've s been so close to getting a long chain supercompressor, like a 7150 or a 7042, a few times because there is something so gorgeous to me about that design. But I haven't found the perfect one yet and it it could take a really long time |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . Yeah those are those are absolutely killer watches and like weirdly kind of a great pilot's watch. |
| Evan Robinson | Yeah that's that's part of the appeal for me. The main activities in life all covered with that one watch. And it really does something different than the big pilot or than the uh aqua naut. So eventually I think that's going to join the stable. But uh as you know better than I, once you start going into vintage watches, uh that example by example evaluation uh is a much slower process than deciding you like a reference number. Yeah. That's uh |
| Stephen Pulvirent | , it's the start of the journey, not the end of the journey. Yeah. Yeah. I I wanted to ask how your relationships I mean we've talked a lot through these, you know, the three kind of main topics we've we've talked about are are watches, aviation and and photography. And I know those are three kind of like big pillars in in your life. Um they all have this uh sort of valence of like a relationship between you and a thing, uh a mechanical thing no less. Uh and then kind of like one plus one equaling three there, you know, like what kind of new thing you can create or sort of way you can expand your life or your your circle through these these relationships with these mechanical things. And I wonder how you A, think about that more broadly, and B, if there are ways in which it's it's similar or different between these three categories of things, kind of like planes, cameras, and watches |
| Evan Robinson | I think that in order to get one plus one to equal three, the tool has to be world class. I'm this really big believer in buying something once, buying something for life. And you know, I I know some great pilots and great watch collectors and great photographers, and it's just one thing in, one thing out on a regular basis. They're just horse trading left and right. And that's not my personality. You know, I bought one aircraft and I' madmly in love with it. And I don't know if I'll ever sell the thing. I have three watches, and each of them are going to stay with me for life, and I'm going to pass them on to the next generation. Um and similarly with my cameras, you know, by getting to know your tool really well and by doing a lot of research and being honest with yourself about what you actually need out of the tool. I think a lot of people have these grand notions about what they're going to eventually do if they get this item that are just a crock of nothing. Like they are so deluding themselves, right? If you if you get something, it's not gonna make you tougher or smarter or faster. Yeah. But if you understand what it is you're trying to accomplish and then you really put in the time and get that tool. And then once you've gotten it realize again, that's just the start of the journey. you N actuowally have to learn how to use it and learn the things that no one else knows about that tool, then one plus one can equal three. And that to me is a really rewarding process. It just takes a long time to do. |
| Stephen Pulvirent | Yeah. No, I I totally agree and completely relate. Uh and and I think, you know, you and I are are both in the age range where like those things that the earliest things you bought that you felt that way about are now like starting to feel right. Like they're settling in, you know? Like I feel like I now have a handful of things I've owned long enough where I'm like, I'm confident that I wasn't lying to myself. Like I actually am going to enjoy this thing forever. And I like really am building a relationship with it. It's not like this thing where like, oh, I bought it and I've used it for six months and ha ha ha, I'm gonna have it forever and pass it down to my kids. But like you really get to like get into that relationship and it feels good. It's a it's a good thing |
| Evan Robinson | . I think you have to have enough time really to go through cycles. I I'd be deluded if I said that with each of those things that I love now, I acquired them and there hasn't been a time or two where I've thought about getting rid of them or when I've been frustrated by them. Totally. And until you have the patience to go through those cycles and and the time each to do it, then I don't think you can be honest and say, I'm gonna keep this forever. But when you've done that half a dozen times and thought about selling it and broken it and repaired it and loved it and had it really see you through a tough time, then that starts to become a genuine sentiment and a bond has really been formed. Yeah |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . Well, there's there's a few kind of random topics that I want to make sure we get to, just stuff that that I think I find interesting selfishly and that I think hopefully our our listeners will find interesting. One kind of relates to what we were just talking about a little bit, which is a quote I absolutely love from you, which is you're a jack of all trades and a master of none, but none is often better than one. Can you unpack that for me a little bit? |
| Evan Robinson | Happy to. As we try to compartmentalize everything in our lives in order to make it easier to understand. We often trim away the fat, right? We we get rid of the stuff that we don't think is necessary. And everybody has heard Jack of all trades, master of none. But I don't think a lot of people realize that that used to be a two-sentence sentiment. We've just deleted part of it because that was easier. And I love the fact that in years past, people understood that there is something to being a renaissance person, that there is a great richness to life if you have an appreciation for all trades and all of the different facets of a daily experience. So learning how to make the perfect espresso can be every bit as rewarding as learning how to make more money on the stock market so you can buy more espresso. Both of those things are equally valuable. And I try to embrace that with my work when I am often asked by people, you know, oh, do you shoot you know liquids or do you shoot cars or something else? It's like, well, there's still a camera, there's still light, we can figure out how to do any of those things, and I'm very intentional about making sure one of them does not dominate the rest. Ye |
| Stephen Pulvirent | ah. That's awesome. Yeah, I absolutely love that. Um in terms of your other interests, you know, as we talk about, you know, uh uh uh master of none, but many things that you're interested in. Uh you're you're a big uh cooking guy, aren't you? |
| Evan Robinson | Yeah, I grew up with a mom who went to culinary school and thought that she was gonna become a pro chef and worked in kitchens for a little while and then doesn't realize that that wasn't really conducive to having a kid and and spending a lot of time with them. So I was really fortunate that whereas most uh of my chef friends, when they go home, they're not really ready to cook because they've just been doing that for the last 16 hours. Well, she put all of that love of food and uh just channeled it into our household. So I thought it was really normal that on Tuesday afternoon you could say, well, can we have chocolate souffle for dessert to go with that whole roast chicken that we're having? That sounds really good. It's pretty incredible. Yeah. So you know, I I absorbed a lot of that growing up um and just really had so many um deep experiences of bonding with family over food that it it would have been pretty hard to come out of that childhood and not want to cook and share nourishment with all those that you love |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . Yeah. Uh I'll I'll admit the uh snow peak envy and the Wagyu envy is is real. Uh some sometimes I'm flipping through my Instagram stories and uh it it it kind of kills me as I think about what I'm gonna be eating for dinner |
| Evan Robinson | . You know, the the obsession has gotten pretty far with Snow Peak, uh for those who don't know it, it's this Japanese outdoors brand. And as only a brand from the other side of the world could do, they have figured out how to simultaneously create some of the like most tough lightweight titanium mountaineering gear, but also some of the best outdoor kitchen equipment that is designed so that you can pretty much have your entire family go out and eat a five-star meal in the middle of nowhere so that the entire family will enjoy the process of camping. And I'm fortunate that I was able to justify that because my wife never wanted to go camping before we met. Like no interest at all. And as I kept asking her if there was a way that I could make it more intriguing, she said, Well, look, at the end of the day, I just don't want eat to bad food and sleep outside. Said what if we eat good food and sleep outside? Like, well, I think I could handle that. It's meeting halfway, right? Yeah, yeah. It's part of the process. So th that began this this deep dive into yeah, Japanese grills and their very special charcoals that they have that burn hotter than American ones. And now we've ended up, you know, toting bags of Japanese oak and thirty thousand BTU burners into the middle of the back country just so that we can have a nice little yakatory night and keep everybody happy. |
| Stephen Pulvirent | That's absolutely incredible. I love that. Uh I think I think if I could justify buying some of the snow peak gear, I might camp more. That might might that get me out. I think I'm in the same camp here as uh as your wife. It it's back to |
| Evan Robinson | that, you know, when something is so well designed that you just can't wait to use it again. Yeah. It you're looking for an excuse to get it out. Yeah. It's like I |
| Stephen Pulvirent | 'll do basically anything at a super high level. Like if you can be like, we're gonna do this thing, but we're gonna do it in insane way, like I'm game to try it. Like I just love that idea of like doing something superlatively. So yeah, okay, we're gonna go camping and we're gonna do it. We're gonna fly our own plane to the backcountry and we're gonna whip out this amazing Japanese meal with this crazy titanium camping gear. Like, cool. Like I'm I'm totally game for that as a person for whom like camping is normally like a holiday in. Like that's that's my uh my my version. But uh yeah, it's uh it's a pretty cool thing and it's it's super fun to watch. So we actually I, haven't said this yet, which is crazy we've gotten this far and I haven't said this. Like we're gonna link up to your Instagram handle in the show notes. Like anyone who is not following you who's listening to this, please go follow Evan. Like the you you will be so jealous and so excited every time you see something pop up. Uh absolutely go do that. So I can't believe we made it this far without me doing that. That's that's kind of w |
| Evan Robinson | ild. Well, and I can't believe we made it this far without getting you in the plane in the backcountry so that we can actually share one of these meals together. So as soon as it's safe to do so, we've got to get out there. So that you'll be on that Instagram also and we'll get to make some memories around the cam |
| Stephen Pulvirent | pfire. Would love it. Um well I guess the last thing is is just do you have anything fun or exciting coming up that you want to plug? Any projects, anything you're really excited about, anything you think people should check out? Um |
| Evan Robinson | You know, I think you kind of touched on it with the the love of Wagyu. I're right now I'm working on a project that I'm pretty excited about with uh this company called West Home. They're an Australian Wagyu company. And what's great to me about it is that, you know, we're in the middle of a really tough year, year and a half now. And trying to find some positives to this chaos and sadness is something that I think helps me maintain some sanity. I don't have left, but there's a little bit. And what we've gotten to do is issue this series of six minute roughly documentaries with world-class chefs cooking at their houses. And I've always loved cooking and I've never been more tired of cooking than during quarantine. It just got to be so exhausting. And then when we talk about marking these, you know, celebrations and special occasions, it's really tough to do when you can't eat out because meals used to be the way we would do that. And so I hope that with this series, we're able to kind of show people how they can re-look at the way they're cooking at home, learn something from a chef that never would have taken the time, had the time to film with us, because usually they'd be in these professional kitchens operating the highest level. I mean, we have Tim Hollingsworth who spent a decade at the French laundry now as an OBM here in LA. We have Chris from Nightmarket, who's made one of the best sales I've ever had in my life with Australian Wyoming. So I'd I'd love for people to go check that out and see if they might actually kind of get inspired to look at the way they're cooking at home a little bit more because it'll make you a little healthier and a little happier and maybe give you an idea about how to celebrate in a time when it's still worth remembering to celebrate things. You gotta have some w |
| Stephen Pulvirent | ins. I absolutely love that and could not think of a better note to end this on. So uh dude, thank you so much for doing this. Um as soon as things get a little less wild here in LA, uh, we definitely have to have to connect. I will a thousand percent be taking you up on the offer of a of a nice trip in the plane and uh yeah, hopefully we can hang out soon. Thanks so much for having me on. Hi, |
| Evan Robinson | Gray, the whole rest of the crew. It's great to connect. And yeah, I can't wait to get you out there. And uh we'll have a great time. Awesome. Thanks, man. Take care. Ciao |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . Up next, Kara joins me to discuss why all watches should be unisex. Hey Stevie, how's it going? Hey Stevie. How are you? I'm good. I'm good. It's Friday. Uh, you know, ready ready for a little weekend action. It's been a busy week at uh Hodinki HQ, but uh T G I |
| Cara Barrett | F, I know, seriously. Yeah. Like can't believe it's actually Friday, so very exciting. Yeah. |
| Stephen Pulvirent | Yeah, you've uh you've earned it for sure. Um I need a nap. Yeah, I need a nap. I feel like we should get team shirts made that just say I need a nap. Uh I need a nap. The hodinky logo on the back. Um it's nap time. Oh watch that just says nap at all twelve hour markers. I would wear honestly I'd wear that watch. I'll put that in for the limit edition lineup in twenty twenty two. Perfect. I knew I knew you were the right person to talk to here. Uh well this week, I mean one of the highlights on Hodinky this week, and one of the reasons I wanted to have you on the show, uh, was that you wrote a pretty incredible column um to kick off this new rubric, Second Opinions. Um, and the headline is all watches should be unisex and here's why. Um and to say that this like caused a kerfuffle on the watch internet this week would be like probably an understatement. Um Watch watch land is I think someone so so wonderfully put it. Yeah, it's uh it it caused quite a stir. Um and and I think, you know, I think this is a thing we should be talking about. It's a thing we should have been talking about for much longer. And the thing that like I know internally like we talk about all the time, but um I think it was good to to get some thoughts out there. So I I figured, you know, we'll start off, I want to get some of like the stuff from the article just out there for people who maybe haven't had a chance to read it, which it's in the show notes. Please go read it. This whole segment will make way more sense and be way more fun if you've read the story. Um but then, you know, I want to, I want to chat with you and and talk through some stuff that's some commenters brought up, some of our colleagues across the industry have brought up and really kind of go just one layer deeper. Does that does that work for you this morning? That works for me. I'm I'm ready. Ready as I'll ever be. Uh so I guess the first thing to do is just like if somebody hasn't read the article or if you were trying to like give somebody your take on the article, what's like the elevator pitch here? What's the like TLDR version of this story? Yeah, I think, you know |
| Cara Barrett | well first of all, second opinions, it's just to clarify, is not gonna be the title of my monthly column. It's just a new rubric that we have about opinions. So it's just the individual writer's opinion. So it could be anything from watchers should be unisex to uh I hate a date window and so on and so forth. So like just so the audience knows, like they have that to look forward to. So it's it's in it's to encourage people to kind of just talk about things that we all want to talk about. Um and something that I have always wanted to talk about but necessarily didn't have the um competence or the uh words to kind of express how I feel about watches and being a woman in the watch industry. Um so for me this piece was really just to kind of get that conversation started about how women still feel a little bit like outsiders in this hobby. It's still very male oriented. I you know, Jenny L has recently published a video on the history of women's watches and the marketing of women's watches, which is so fascinating. Highly recommend it people watch it um and the you know just kind of exploring my feelings on it um and so there's jewelry watches and those are like the serpentes of the world and those have a place and they're wonderful. Um and I think there's a place for quote unquote ladies watches and quote unquote men's watches. But for me, the biggest thing is is I really want to see brands talking to women differently about watches and that includes uh all the watches that they make. Um, and I think that is something that will help consumers as well as women who might be interested in watches but don't know that they're interested in watches, get interested in watches. Because representation, I think, as we all know, at least now, hopefully, hopefully the memo has gotten across. Uh representation is really important. Um and and so I think that kind of sh showcasing traditional men's watches on women, not as a sex object, might I add, uh is a caveat there because I, you know, some brands do do it, but it's gross. Uh and so I think it's important to to really show women products that might interest them that because of the taste of change. Yeah. So that's a really all over the place answer. No, no, no. I mean I think I I think it's a complicated |
| Stephen Pulvirent | topic. That's exactly hard to talk about. That's the thing. Sort of facets of this. So, you know, let's let's kind of walk through there's a couple things from the article itself I wanted to pull out and kind of get your your extended thoughts on. This is the the liner notes basically. Um you know in the opening graph of the story you you're talking about your own collection and you say I I don't see any conventional ladies pieces. And the idea of conventional ladies' watches, right, like that already gets us like really deep into the heart of this, right? Like, what are quote unquote conventional ladies' watches? Why do we think of them that way? Like, these are pieces of metal. Like these things have no inherent uh sort of like gender qualities to them. Um any any gender we we see in them is something we've put into them. So I I wonder maybe when you say like conventional ladies pieces. Like A, what specifically are you talking about? And B, like why do you think those watches have become thought of as conventional ladies pieces? Yeah, I think for me, |
| Cara Barrett | I think of a conventional ladies piece being like a 1950s cocktail watch. Okay. Like sm super small, thin bracelet. It it can be manual, but like that to me is a conventional ladies wristwatch. Um does it have gems on it in your mind? Sometimes. Okay. Sometimes. But I think because that was the style then that it made sense, but now we've bec we've come to an era where women are dressing differently, women are working more, women are making more money. Um, women have a stronger buying power than ever before. So the so tastes and style has changed and evolved. And I don't know that the modern traditional ladies' watch has caught up with that. And it's not because I don't think it should exist. I love traditional A's watches. I love like the Mayon de Cartier. I think it's really special. I think there's a time and place for it. I think there's also a time and place for a submariner. And so I think it's kind of about figuring out w how we can make women who don't necessarily like traditional ladies watches feel like they're spoken to with more traditional men's watches. Does |
| Stephen Pulvirent | that make sense? Yeah, that makes sense. I mean you you also say in the story, and I'll I'll quote you at you again, which I know is like the most annoying thing I've done. I hate it when people do it to me, but like I'm gonna do it to you, why not? Um This isn't about the watches, this is about the approach to seeing them and how outdated it is. And like the products are a problem like we know that like you know I won't slag off anybody here right now by name I won't that's probably for a different forum, but like if I see one more brand send me a press release for Valentine's Day with a like fifty thousand dollar gold watch with fucking pink hearts and diamonds all over it, like I like I I what am I supposed to do with that? Like what the fuck does a thinking human being do with that in twenty twenty one? Like I I just that's astounding. But if we set that aside, right, that's a problem. But those are like you can isolate those incidents. The things you can't isolate are the broader strategies coming from these watch brands and how uh watches are viewed and how they clearly view their customer base, right? |
| Cara Barrett | Right. So I think that's kind of the crux of the issue also. And to speak to the specific Valentine's Day onslaught of of pitches and emails and things. The Jenny L video really nailed it on the head for me as far as marketing is concerned. If you look at traditional men's watch marketing campaigns and ad campaigns. It always shows the watch on a dude doing something. He's scaling a mountain. He's diving, he's the president, he's uh you know, it's always from a first person perspective. And it's like, hey, hey guys, if you buy this watch, you'll be cool like this guy, and it's like, that's the message, right |
| Stephen Pulvirent | ? And it's and it's like you said though, it's first person, right? Like it's you can see yourself doing something, right? Like you're supposed to imagine yourself as the person in the ad, right? Exactly |
| Cara Barrett | . And then if you take a look at women's marketing campaigns, it's always a supermodel, it's always someone who's you know dressed a certain way, the watch isn't even fitted to her wrist half the time. It's like kind of drooping. And it's always from the male gaze. It's never, it's never, I never look at them and be like, man, I want to be like her. Yeah, I'll be right because I'm not. I'll be I'll be less I' |
| Stephen Pulvirent | ll never be like her. I'll be less diplomatic about it. Like it's always some skinny white lady who's been hairbrushed within an inch of her life wearing a fucking tool gown sitting on like a Regency era sofa and like it's complete being like you said yeah clearly looked at by the person viewing the advertisement exactly not being embodied by the person w looking at the advertisement. It's like kind of creepy, actually |
| Cara Barrett | . It's I think it's something that just like of so few women actually aspire to be that way. Do you know what I mean? So it's never like I want to see like and I maybe I'm an anomaly right so like this again like this is just my opinion like I want to see some like badass chick in a boardroom. Like that's something that I would aspire to to to want. I'm sure other women aspire to be a pilot. I sure assume you know what it's there's all these different things where I just think they're kind of like missing or like some women just want to be chic. That's all they care about. Like they want to see some like fashion forward woman walking the streets in New York wearing a cool watch. That's it. It's really that simple. Like it and so I I think the issue is the ads are still targeted to men. Yeah. So there's no ads that are ever targeted to women at all. And it's still I think that's the that's the real miss. It's just kind of it this there's still s you know,' theys still kind of stuck in the mindset of oh, women aren't gonna buy themselves a watch. So we're gonna target men to buy one for her, which is fine. I'm all about nice gifts. Don't get me wrong. But at the same time, but at the same time, I know brands are focused on growing their female consumer base. I think you know most of them have roughly 30 to 40 percent female buyers, which is fantastic. That number's actually higher than I would have would expect. But to get that number higher, you do have to start talking to women differently. Yeah. And I think that that that for me was really the like oh this is what it should be and and I think a lot of people in the comments at least were very fixated on the unisex aspect of the arc article where it was like let's do away with labels and it's it's tricky I see I see that opinion right so like I can get I get what people are saying where it's like oh you can't get rid of the labels like that's not gonna do anything. But for me, the bigger picture issue is the way that women are spoken to in yeah the industry. Yeah. Um and as consumers |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . Yeah. I think that that makes a lot of sense. And you know, like uh I I have not checked, but I will I will check right now. People are getting a a live look uh at the process. You can maybe hear me typing. Um but like let's take one of the most popular watches in the world, right? Like the the Nautilus. It's just discontinued 5711, you know, great. Uh the 5711 isn't explicitly labeled by Patek as uh as a men's watch. And I want to make it clear too, like the reason I'm picking on Patek here, or as it will become apparent in a minute, is not entirely picking on Patek here. Um is like they're big boys, like they can they can handle this. They're big boys and big girls. And like, um, this is not punching down. Like Patek can stand up to this. So I have very purposefully chosen them here. So this is not a punching bag situation. No, and they actually do their recent uh 24 ad campaigns have been really for focused on women in power. Yeah, which I I think is interesting. And I think the fact that Patek does not explicitly label their watches men's watches or women's watches. However, like have you ever seen an ad for the 57 Eleven with a woman in the boardroom. No, it's some dude and his son uh you know either on a yacht or you know playing golf or whatever. And even and that that seeps down into the product as well where we've seen that like the smaller Nautilus they put the wavy dial and the diamonds on them almost to like keep men in Western markets where that's not popular from buying them. Which is like it's a really weird and fascinating strategy, but like there are all of that is to say like there are ways to do this other than labeling, you know, there are ways to make it clear to your customers who products are targeted at, and like anybody who wants to buy them can buy them, but like there are ways to hint at people like we're making this because we think this group of people will like it, or we're making this because we think this group of people will like it. And like that's all fine, but I I think if I'm hearing you correctly, and please correct me if I'm wrong here, is one of the bigger problems is like watch brands telling customers how they can and can't enjoy their products, uh, or should or shouldn't enjoy their products. And I think that seeps through that that kind of culture becomes a part of the the enthusiast culture as well. And you reference it in the story, but like our talking watches with Bethany was a perfect example of this, where like people are still bitching and moaning in the comments that like, oh, she didn't really like her watches. She didn't show the right kind of passion. And it's like, I'll drop another F bomb because we've already got the explicit tag on this article. Why not? Like, fuck you. Who are you to tell this person how they can and can't enjoy the things in their life? Like, I don't show up at your house and tell you you over salted your dinner. I don't show up at your house and tell you the car is the wrong color for your personality. Like you get to buy the stuff you want and enjoy it how you want. And if you like it and it makes you happy, good. And I I just think that that culture I think starts kind of at the at the top and seeps down or at the bottom and seeps up. I'm not quite sure which one. Yeah, you know, it's complicated because I think there's like two |
| Cara Barrett | things going on. So there's like there's as we as you said like the way that brand you know as the way the brands speak to their female consumers is one thing. And then with the enthusiasm base, there's this like culture of like watch snobism, yeah, of like how much you know, like oh, you don't know enough, I know more. And like, I don't know if that's because it's more of like and like this is a gender stereotype so like shame on me but like I don't know if it's because it's more skews more male uh that's that's not a gender |
| Stephen Pulvirent | stereotype dudes on the internet are terrible as a dude who has been on the internet most of my life.ud Des on the internet are awful |
| Cara Barrett | . I know and I know women are too. So like I don't want the I really like I really want to avoid this being like a sh you know, shame on you. Like you're a bad person. Like blah blah blah. Like I really, really want to avoid that because I the full intention of this article was to have like a healthy conversation about it and not it be this like less, you know, shame like lesson in shame. Like you know what I mean? I don't I don't want that. Cause like I it's all for me, it's really about like bringing more people in. Yeah. And so I think that's where the watch snob snobism has always kind of rubbed me the wrong way. And I wonder if it rubs a lot of people the wrong way, whether you're a woman or a man and whether you're and and when you're new to the watch community, like some people don't care and they just go really deep and then they like really teach themselves. But I think a lot of women just want to like talk about nice you know what I mean? They just want to talk about watches and feel comf feel comfortable and feel like they're not being like told like, oh, you don't you're not welcome here. You don't know enough. And so I I think that's that to me is like a separate watch enthusiast cultural issue. Um and I do wish that it was less so that because then it came out and the Bethany video is a perfect example of that because it really came out in that video. And that's it really it that bothered me. I I I felt I felt very uh annoyed by that because I I want like if you're a woman and we're going to you to be our second talking watches female guest, what are you gonna do? You're gonna go look at the first one and you're gonna go look at the comments and you're gonna say, Why would I wanna ever do this? Uh agreed. Yeah. Like why would I wanna do this? No one here is nice. Like that's literally you know what I mean? So I think again it's not like a less it's not I'm not trying to shame anyone, but I do I do think sometimes we get a little too passionate. And I think it's passion's great, but we'll just re you know like real back real it's like everyone just needs to take a deep breath like it's just watches. And I also want to make that point. Like, this is just watches, like I realize that we're not saying like you know I this is not some like massive feminist movement it's like this this is just a hobby so like we should all really enjoy it and be and be be nice about it. So that's that. I don't |
| Stephen Pulvirent | know. Yeah, I mean I I I I think you're right. Like the the the idea that like anyone thinks that like watches are not a thing that everyone can enjoy, like I feel totally comfortable saying, like, fine, go away. Like, we don't want to hear from you. Like, if you if you want to exclude other people, go do it somewhere else. Like, like this that's it's so silly. Like, there are so many things going on in the world and watches are an escape and they're fun and they're a place where we can find community and have a hobby that we can share and you know do it across the world and in this case do it virtually since we can't be seeing each other. And like if that upsets you you and what want is for there to be fewer people or fewer people who don't look like you or act like you or have the same opinions as you, like, since I'm on a roll today, like fuck you. Stevie is on a roll. Go away. I just don't I just have no patience for this. Like I just don't understand. I mean, somebody commented. I I I wrote this down in the comments. Uh I'm debating about I won't call them out by name, but you can go find it in the comments. Uh the quote is: why stop at watches? Why not make all people unisex too? Uh like that's the most like bullshit bad faith, like garbage argument. And if you think that, like, go away. Like, I don't want you reading Hodinky. Like, I work hard on this, Kara works hard on this. Everyone else on the team, I think probably agrees. Like, go somewhere else. Like we don't want you here. This is not a if if you think that way, this is not a place for you. Like this is a place of inclusivity. This is a place where we want everyone and we want everyone to be excited and welcoming. And like, I don't know. I think that was the real heart of your column. Like, to me, my big takeaway was like, yes, we can argue about the minutiae of product development. Yes, we can argue about some pretty big problems in marketing departments. But like ultimately what this is really about is that like watches should be a place for everyone and anything in the watch world that uh creates barriers or could be exclusionary, like we we should just get rid of it or find an alternative. I mean, is that that that's to me the takeaway? Did I did I get it or did I miss it? |
| Cara Barrett | Yeah, that was the crux of the article. Yeah. Um, you got yeah, it's just about being more inclusive. And and I think I think even just talking about it, and I got a lot of re a lot of women reached out to me after, and even within the company and outside the Hodinki and you know through Instagram and stuff. And I think it's just I think just talking about it kind of like address this like weird thing that's like just kind of like under the surface that like no one really wants to talk about because it's like kind of it's because it's complicated and like kind of weird. And so I think kind of just even talking about it, it just made people feel more comfortable and like more empowered to to be into watches. Cause like at the end of the day, like I just want to nerd out with people over the fact that like Rolex discontinued the OP39. Like, you know what I mean? Like I wanna be upset about that with people. Like you know, I got that's like that's where I you know, that's the joy I find in this community is like you're like, oh, how could you do that? Or like, oh my god, did you see that? Like, you know, and and no kind of knowing the nuances and you know, I don't also want this to be like people the industry to be like, oh my God, like blah blah blah. Because like I love the watch industry. I find it so fascinating. And like that's actually what my column will be about like moving forward is the industry, um if they'll keep talking to me. So uh you know I think you're I think you're safe. Hopefully hopefully people will still want to talk to me gan,ive me a shit and stuff. Um, so you know, I I don't want to let anyone down, but it's not my column every month is not gonna be like guns blazing, like, you know, hot topic every wo every month. But you know, it's it's a fascinating industry and it's a small but mighty one and there's so much to talk about and like so much to explore and um and I just wanna see I just wanna see yeah I just want to see see more women get into it because I think it's a it's it's |
| Stephen Pulvirent | fun. Awesome. Yeah I completely agree. Um I think you did a really great job and I I think you know uh to me the biggest takeaway here is that there's a lot of conversation left to be had. I mean at at the time of us recording this there's five hundred and fourteen comments on the original story. Uh we then published for people who aren't aware, we published a story highlighting some of the most interesting comments uh after the first like 36 hours. Uh and that story has over a hundred comments. Um like you said, Jenny published a really great video recently. Um, friend of Hodinky former contributor uh Felix Schultz uh had a really great thread on his Instagram story that was a good one. Oh yeah, that was really good. Um really, really smart stuff from Felix. Um and there's a whole bunch of other folks in across the industry, women, men, um who had really interesting takes kind of in in the wake of yours or things that, you know, to give people full credit here, I don't want to slight anybody, like a lot of really smart people in the industry and outside the industry have been thinking about this for a long time and have been having conversations elsewhere. And I think, you know, your column really allowed, you know, a moment to exist for people to say, like, yeah, hey, like I've been thinking about this too, and I have opinions, and I think that's great. And I I think it's important that we acknowledge all those voices. So I would say if this is a topic you're interested in, we'll have some links down in the show notes where you can find other conversations about this because um yeah we don't want to monopoly. No, I'm cer |
| Cara Barrett | tainly yeah I'm certainly not the first to have these thoughts or opinions and I know people have spoken out about them before, other women in the industry. Um it's you know, I am fortunate enough to work somewhere with a a large platform and and felt like it was just kind of time. Um you know, the tipping point. Yeah. So it's exciting. I'm honestly like I hope you know, my only hope is that like things get a little different. Yeah. And like we see different stuff. And like ultimately that's that's what makes the world go round, right? It's like change. Yeah. Can't avoid it. And it's like that's what you know, that's that's what we want to see. So I don't know |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . It's exciting it hopefully hopefully we'll see. I don't know. Awesome. Well, thanks for coming on to talk about this. I'm glad we could could have this chat. I mean, we could have probably made this like a two or three episode uh arc of a I don't think so either. We'll probably do that over uh over a beer or a glass of whiskey or a glass of savvy bee if we're being real uh later. Yeah. But uh awesome. Well thanks, CB. Of the rec off the record wine time. Yeah, exactly. That'll be our other podcast is off the record wine time with Cara and Steven. Um it'll never sing the line of day. No one no, never. Uh that's the secret feed. But uh sweet. Thanks so much for doing this and enjoy your weekend and uh we'll talk soon. All right. Thanks, Stevie. Thanks. Awesome. Thanks, C B. Bye. |